Women at Work - May We Recommend…Coaching Real Leaders

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Leadership coach Muriel Wilkins has shared her wisdom on our show multiple times. Now you can listen to and grow from it regularly through Muriel’s new podcast, Coaching Real Leaders. The show takes you inside real-life coaching sessions with executives who’ve hit a bump in the road. In this episode, Muriel speaks with a VP who’s been passed over for a promotion and needs help figuring out how to overcome the setback and get to where she wants to be.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey, Emily here. I want to tell you about a new HBR podcast that'll give you an edge at work. It's called Coaching Real Leaders, and it's hosted by longtime career coach Muriel Wilkins. Muriel takes you inside real life coaching sessions. She talks with high performers who are working to overcome challenges and grow as leaders. You'll finish each episode with insights and guidance that'll help you grow too. In this episode, Muriel speaks with Grace, a woman who's just been passed over for a promotion that would have put her on track to the C-suite.

Grace's out-of-the-box approach to solving business problems has made her successful in her current role. But now, in order to make it to the top, she'll have to reposition herself. HBR Presents. I'm Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Chances are you haven't climbed to a leadership

role at your organization without being pretty good at your job. Today's guest is struggling at a pivotal transition period in her career where she wants to keep moving up the ladder, but she isn't sure the message is coming across. To protect confidentiality, we don't use real names on this show, so we'll refer to today's guest as Grace. She leads a sales team in a pretty corporate environment and has had a number of different roles at the company before rising to her current position as vice president. She didn't intend to become a senior executive when she started her career, but it turns out she's enjoyed it. And she's been really good at charting her own path.

I have kind of made my leadership run by almost being off brand, you know, being a lone wolf, sort of anti-culture, like being very real, being very transparent. And I was very resistant to kind of the corporate culture. And so I kind of got this reputation for, you know, she's not sort of the process person who follows all the rules. But when we have a product and we need to go big, she's going to go and figure it out and crush it. Even during the crazy year under pandemic lockdown, Grace surpassed her annual goals. And now she's wondering how she can take it to the next level, which for her would be joining the C-suite alongside the most senior executives at the company. And I am part of that sort of inner circle now. And so I've had to kind of make this

transition. I think now is kind of the what's next. And I think my big question is, how do I translate my sort of my current brand, which I actually think they do find valuable, but it's how do I repackage this as someone that is different in kind and valuable because, you know, there's some creativity and innovation there, but also something that they will put in front of the board because they know that I'll do an okay job, right? So like sort of building more credibility on some of the things that I need to have in order to get to that next level. Grace is focused, determined, and works hard at her company, and yet somehow she ended up in a situation that a lot of us may find ourselves in at some point in our careers. The point at which you don't get the promotion in spite of all your hard work. Grace recently found out that she was passed over for a more senior position. She now finds herself reporting to her former peer, and there's an additional layer that's been created between her and the company's CEO, all of which has led her to wonder, what has she done wrong? And asked a question, how do I convey that I'm C-suite material? And so this is where we pick up our coaching conversation.

I asked Grace how she feels about being passed over for this promotion. You know, I had this moment where I was really, I was frustrated and I just felt like I am, I'm doing what you've asked me to do and I'm crushing it. And in the midst of that, I kind of get this surprise because it's one layer between myself and the CEO. It just didn't feel good and it didn't feel right. And really there was not much to do about it. And so that led me to realize, and it's been something that's kind of followed me across this tenure that I've had at this company is I have kind of a brand of being sort of the wild animal, right? So that's perfect for go-to-market. It's really good for what I have been doing. But I had this moment where I thought, hmm, these skills,

this kind of passion for inspiring my team, just figuring out the market and being scrappy. These are great for what I'm doing if I want to continue to do the same thing over and over again, but I'm not sure this is going to cross into the C-suite. And as you get higher up, as you know, there are fewer positions, right? So I just had this moment of, I probably don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over again. It's so much work and it's so stressful. And I just felt like I'm not sure I know how to move to the next layer. My whole brand has been kind of about, I don't really care about the promotion. I don't really care about the money. What I care about is like my heart in this product, my heart with this team. So how do I then march into the C-suite and have them not feel nervous?

And I realized I don't know the answer to that question. Okay. I understand. So what I'm hearing for you is really this question around how do I position myself in a way that makes me a viable candidate for the C-suite? Correct. Without losing what I'm good at. Right. While remaining true to who you are and your contributions and basically, you know, for lack of a better word, your authenticity.

And this is key because, I mean, there's so much written about like be authentic, the authentic leader, et cetera. And I heard a colleague once say, and I've always remembered it. He said, you know, you could be authentic all you want, But you know what, you can authenticize yourself out of a job. And so the key is, how do you balance being authentic while still being relevant? And I think that's, that's the tension, right? Exactly. And it's really interesting, because when I started in this job right out of college, I was like, this corporate stuff is not for me. And here I am, however many years later,

that kind of worked for me. And then it actually turned out that who I am authentically worked for these types of roles. And I ended up moving up in the company and I enjoyed it. For the first time, I felt like I'm really good at this. I love it. And then I kept performing, performing. And then I had this moment that was like, but I, I'm, I just found myself kind of getting deeper into the C-suite and deeper into the leadership meetings. And it's, it's like this transition is happening and I'm, I'm not sure how to bridge it. But if I went head to head with, you know, someone who's super analytical, I'm not going to win that fight. I have spent a lot of time, you know, because I've gotten that feedback, right? You've got to be data driven. And I've spent a lot of time over the last few

years really developing those types of skills, but it's not my natural flow. Yeah. But I mean, but here's the thing, right? The more you transition into a leadership role rather than just a functional role, the more you transition into, okay, now not only do I need to have functional expertise, but I'm also a leader in this organization, particularly at the C-suite, you sort of are operating with two jobs. You have the job of leading your function, and then you have the job of being an enterprise-wide, you know, what we call an enterprise-wide leader, meaning you can think strategically, you can think about the overall business, whether it's people, finances, operational, even though you have

responsibility for one functional lane. So with that frame in mind, there is nobody who ever jumps into or transitions into the C-suite role where all of the skills naturally flow for them. I mean, I have yet to meet that person. Maybe they're out there, that special unicorn. But there's always a muscle that is stronger than the other. The question is, is the one that is less strong, does it have enough strength for them to be able to perform? We don't need to optimize all the muscles, but it needs to be good enough that it doesn't naturally flow, isn't necessarily an obstacle. I think the question is, do you have the capability to build out the other skills that are necessary at the level at which they are needed in the executive role? Let's take a pause here. Grace's story is a typical one of what got you to this

level isn't what's necessarily going to get you to the next level. And where she's stumped is in not knowing how to make that bridge between what she's doing now and what that natural next step in her career would be, especially when it seems like the skills she brings are a bit different than what's expected. But it's important to understand what exactly that gap is. So I wanted to dig deeper into why she thinks she hasn't gotten the promotion yet. I asked her, did her boss think she didn't want the job or that she couldn't do the job? Here's what she said. I think he was articulating, he doesn't think I can do the job. That's not what he was saying, but that's what I heard. And I say that because a few years ago, I actually had a job offer from, you know, someone came and kind of poached me out and I had this job offer and I tried to leave and they were like, no, no, no. But at the time I felt like I was in a different position, which was they wanted to

save me. They saw the value, but the reason they saw the value is because what I wanted to do at that time and what they wanted me to do aligned. And now I'm shifting a little bit and saying, I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over again. This is, I need to do something more. And now they're going, well, I don't know. We can talk about that, but I can sense they're nervous. All right. And to what extent do you have a sense of what they may perceive as the gap? Meaning what is the difference between what you can do and what they think you need to be able to do to do for you to have gotten that promotion, for example?

I think that I definitely tend to move on gut feeling, sort of an intuition. And I have had to train myself to be more data-driven. I think they value that data-driven perspective so much that I'm kind of a distraction a little bit. I don't think they see value in what I'm bringing. Yeah. The issue. Yeah. Well, they, you know, as you said before, they see value in what you're bringing in the role that you're in.

Yeah, exactly. baseline price of admissions entry to that next level, which is this data-driven acumen that is sort of seen as a threshold that maybe you're crossing more recently, but hasn't been part of your package over your career, right? And so this data-driven piece, is that something that's sort of part of the organization's DNA? Yes. So you're a bit of an outlier in not having that at the core of your DNA. I feel like we have come a long way. I think there are a lot of type A data driven people in the company and I've been able to outperform many of them. And most people want to come work with me. In the jobs that they have given me, I've been able to

perform in a way that I don't think they've been able to get out of kind of the standard, you know, in the box type of approach. And that is why like I've shifted from, this is not the place for me to, gosh, maybe this is the place for me. Maybe I am bringing something. I'm like outperforming everybody and people are taking a second look. And so I think there is an appetite now for that. And I think as a leader, they look to me and they uphold me as a leader and a way to be. And they're like, oh, this is great. This is great. This is great. The fear still remains in terms of letting go of control. I think that's why it's so important how I package it or talk about it because if there is a shot at

it, I do think I'll have an opportunity to lead and be different in kind and actually bridge that. And I think they would be open to it, but I have to do it in such a way that it doesn't feel threatening, that it makes sense to them, that it doesn't feel threatening, that it makes sense to them, that it doesn't feel scattered. This type of thing, it gets really messy and I just need a tight kind of articulation of what is the value of that. Grace has made the connection that what she brings to the table as a leader is valued in her current role, but not necessarily valued at the senior executive level. And she's super focused on, if I could just get my point across more clearly, they would see what I bring is of value at that level. It's almost like she wants to convince them of something, but she's not quite sure what she's convincing them of. So before she can even craft

a message, that elevator pitch that she wants, she's got to take a step back and ask herself, what is the value that I can bring at the next level? Let's pick the conversation back up. So one of the things I want you to think about is what is the impact that you actually want to make? Right? Like we've been talking about this next level role, being on an executive team more from a positional standpoint. But what's the impact? What's the difference that you actually want to be making? I want people to feel really inspired and energized. I want people to come to work and feel like the strengths they bring are leveraged and celebrated and that the areas that are developmental are supported. And I feel like that energy is very powerful, both for the firm, but also for the world.

I mean, I know that it sounds really grandiose, but I really feel like when I work with a team, it's not hard for me. Each person is so unique. And I look at them and I'm literally amazed by the strengths that people bring. And I just feel like when people feel supported in that way, they're motivated, they're inspired, they have ideas, they're innovative. You don't have to push people. I mean, that's what I'm trying to impact or influence. And so if we started focusing on this, I'm just going to ask to like, I'm part of your executive team here, right? If we started focusing on this, I'm just going to ask to like, I'm part of your executive team here, right? If we started focusing on this more of having people feel more valued, more recognized, more celebrated, all of the things that you're clearly very passionate about, what difference

would it make in our success as a firm? What difference would it make in our strategic goals a firm? What difference would it make in our strategic goals and our ability to get there? I think we would much more quickly hit our revenue targets. I think we would more efficiently solve the need to be working across silos and collaborating. I think it would move us into kind of a realm where innovation or new opportunities for growth would happen more quickly. What are you basing? How are you making that connection between this focus on people that you could bring and achieving those goals? Yeah. So, I mean, some of it, and you can help me with this because this is probably where I,

this is where I fall down, right? Which is, you know, some of it is just from my own experience. You know, I have seen folks that are just running through walls, working their tails off and it's just kind of across the board, but not just working their tails off, but not in competition and total collaboration. So I'm going to go back to an original question that I had for you, which is, you know, what is the appetite for injecting that type of people orientation into the business? I think the appetite is there. I think that everything we've just gone through has helped on that front. There's almost like a chip, there's a chip missing

and they know it and they recognize and they will speak to it. They will say, you know, we are all, you know, if you talk about the color codes and you know, we're all red or we're blue or we're green, we don't have any yellow. And I'm like all yellow. I'm all yellow. And the types of people that are moving into management positions really do align with that too. There is just kind of a different feel to the company. So the appetite is there. The appetite is there, but it has, you know, they have to feel comfortable with how it's done. And I think there's even an appetite for me to take the lead on that.

So for example, you know, my boss said, listen, if this is what you love, like we should get you involved with all of these things that we do that are about motivating the teams. And you're good at this, so run with that. And so there is an appetite for it. I'm going to try to expand our thinking here a little bit and talk about different scenarios. Because I think what you just shared is actually part of your hook, right? You're feeling like the tide is changing. You know, as you said before, it used to be a sea of red.

You know, I'm assuming this is like some type of personality assessment that everyone took with different colors. And so it was a sea of red. You're like the yellow. But that there's a sense that maybe we need more yellow. And I think what you're going to want to try to validate is whether what you have been able to do with your team, not from a productivity standpoint,

but more in terms of the way that it works together and the DNA that your team has, is that something that the firm has an appetite in scaling up? Meaning, when you see that you have a team that's highly collaborative, that is enormously purpose-driven, that is motivated, is that something that the organization kind of wants to scale up and infuse in other parts of the organization? Why I want to expand our thinking is I think that, you know,

we kind of came into this conversation talking about what would it take, what capabilities do you need to be in the natural next role? Whereas I think that another way of possibly looking at this is what role could I possibly play? And the way that you want to think about it is in terms of impact, what's the businesses need? Then you could get to, okay, well, what does a role like that look like that you might be able to pitch? It's interesting that you say that because obviously I could have long ago raised my hand and said, hey, when it's time, I want your job or I want the chief revenue officer job. And I didn't. And it's not really a job that feels great in its current

iteration. So I like the way you're thinking, which is like expand your options if you don't like the options. But that is sort of my challenge. I love my job. I don't want to keep doing the same thing. I want to do it at a bigger scale. And to what extent have you articulated that, what you just articulated to me? To what extent have you articulated that to your boss? I articulated it to my boss and to the president. And I think their response was basically, because of the size of the company, you can go to a smaller company and be doing what you're doing, or, you know, you have to begin as you go up more senior, you're going to be doing the things you don't want to do. So again, I don't know if that was, we want you to do this job here and that's your, you know, you've kind of tapped out,

right? You've tapped out, which is very possible. And I said that to him, I'm like, this might be the tap out for me at this company. You know, I felt like I want to do this, but on a broader scale here. And so you're, you're asking me questions, but I'm starting to realize that like, I'm giving you an answer, but it's in a total vacuum in isolation from what's the actual problem. And I'm dealing with only part of the information. So even this decision, or even me coming to you and talking about what I can bring to the table, I don't have a sense of what you're actually looking at. What's the full scope? And how do I fit in that? And so here lies Grace's conundrum. She's moved from how do I get my value proposition across

to wait, what is my value proposition? And she's trying to figure out if and how her own particular brand of leadership fits in the bigger scheme of things. But now she realizes that she's trying to do so in a total vacuum without a true understanding of what's needed at that next level to truly impact the company and make it further successful. And while we can sit and talk about why her boss hasn't given her more context, understanding that there's more here at play than just her,

Grace is the one who's my coaching client at the moment, not her boss. She's the one I'm coaching. So I need her to better understand why she's operating in a vacuum so that she can then course correct and get the information she needs to properly think through what's next for her. So let's dive back in as she explores this very question. So what has gotten in the way so far of you being able to engage in this way? And I'm a really kind of pragmatic, like what has gotten in the way of being able to just sit down and say, OK, so help me understand where it is that you want to take the organization in terms of people and this and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that we've talked about up until now. I think this is perfect what you just said, because I feel like I can sell them on myself,

but I don't want to sell them on myself. I have had a tough time getting close with my boss and with the president in sort of an authentic way. It's sort of all of the leadership. It's very hard to get kind of to a place of what's the real problem. And that's where I've felt I haven't been able to sort of get through. I mean, I probably need to just ask more of the questions and engage more. And I have this tendency to, I had this belief that if I outperformed, that that would be the way to succeed and move up. And so there's something I'm missing. There's a chip I'm missing on how am I proving to them that I can be a valuable partner? Okay. Now here's the thing, and correct me if I'm wrong. I get the sense that

you're waiting to be invited to the party and that if you dance hard enough, buy the right wardrobe, do all the right things, then the invitation will come. And what's happened is the invitation hasn't come. And so if that is the case, what would it look like for you to either ask for the invitation or to invite yourself to the party? And you mean just the conversations, not sort of this is the role I want or? Yes, the conversations, because I think that's where you are. I don't think you're ready for the not ready in terms of skill wise. I don't think the organizations are ready to say, yes, here's our role. I think there's a level of engagement that needs to happen is what I'm sensing. There has not been engagement. And I think that's, I think it's fair. And again,

it goes back to kind of this, like I was the person that didn't engage, you know, now this next level. And I just find myself a little bit confused and it doesn't come, I don't even know how to ask because when I do ask or when I have people take the meetings, they will meet with me all the time. They're very gracious about that. But I still feel like I can't actually ask the questions. I can't actually kind of get what I need to get. Have you tried? Yeah, but I feel like I'm performing. I mean, I can give you, that's a perfect example. So this all happened and I now have these regular meetings with my boss and they're usually the tone of, you know, we think you're wonderful and great and we want you to do more. And what are you interested in? What do you want to do? The problem

is probably that I don't really know, because to your point, like I want to know the landscape, what do you guys need? How can I, in that context, be an asset? But I end up feeling like they're just, he's looking at me, he's like, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I want to know what you need. And then I can tell you if that's, and so we, and so I feel like if I don't, because I'm not able to articulate it in a way that he wants to hear, it's frustrating to him. He wouldn't say that, but I just, I sense that they want me to be able to say, I want to do this and it's frustrating to him. He wouldn't say that, but I just, I sense that they want me to be able to say, I want to do this and it's this role and it looks like this and they can say yes or no. And what I'm saying is I have some skills. I don't see the role.

So I think, I think you guys are playing a dance, right? Yeah. You're saying, what do you need? And they're saying, well, what do you want? And I think that you need to be sort of the conductor of this conversation. And what that means, what that requires is that before any orchestra performance, there are many iterations before the final performance. So the first thing is we've got to stop looking at this as this like one shot conversation. Part of what frustrated you with the whole the way things went down more recently is the lack of transparency. And so I actually think you need to aim to flip the script here and make this as transparent a process as possible in terms of how you engage. I think that there's an opportunity to reset the conversation.

Okay. To go to your boss and say, look, I've been thinking about this, right? You've been asking me, what do I want? And I want to make sure that this is something that is going to be relevant, impactful, and responds to what the organization needs. I think where you need to have clarity is what are the questions? I think you need to have some questions that engage him in a dialogue where you are truly listening for the need with a commitment that you will come back with some scenarios.

What's key here is resetting the conversation so that you guys stop this dance and that you also communicate your desire to make this as transparent and as engaging a process and you coming to a solution as you possibly can. Okay. And that accomplishes a couple of things, Grace. One is a big piece of this is depersonalizing it, making it more around how do we address an organizational need rather than what should Grace's next role be. a level of engagement, which to me hasn't necessarily been apparent. Okay. Okay. I think you're at a place where you need to take ownership of this transition in a similar way that you would if this was a business that you were launching. So part of what I'm going to ask you to tap into is all the strengths and capabilities and intelligence that you have doing that. And how do you apply them to launching and building this business,

which is the business of grace? Okay. So when I say that, what comes up for you? Two things. One, I love that framing and I think it kind of goes back to sort of the hope of going to this conversation, which I'm happy to own the sort of ownership of that and driving it. The second thing that comes up and, you know, I don't want to get soft and emotional, but, you know, a lot of what I'm like feeling as we're talking is just kind of a familiarity of how I felt around my father. And I think that there, you know, I think that that's kind of a familiarity of how I felt around my father. And I think that there, you know, I think that that's kind of what I'm experiencing. I've got these two, you know, these two dads and like, I'm trying to outperform and I don't feel like they're kind of letting me

in. And I feel like in order to get in, I have to get a little bit messy and that doesn't feel good. And it's hard for me. It is hard for me to, I'm great. I'm good at leading, but it's hard for me to work with these executives on this level. And I don't know exactly why that is. I don't know if it's insecurity that's like deep seated or if it's kind of doubt or if it's, but I just, I'm struggling with it. I'm struggling with it. which is how do I relate to authority? And your authority story often, often, not always, often comes from how you learned to relate to authority early on in your life. Once you have that sense of relating,

unless you consciously, intentionally shift, change the way you relate to authority, it does become familiar. You recognize it because it's habitual, right? It's like if I ate, you know, you probably had a food that you ate when you were very young that you had a really nasty experience with. And no matter how, for me, it was fish sticks. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Well, to this day, you know, here I am in my 50s. If somebody puts, you could put a chicken nugget in front of me and I'm like, ooh, delicious. But you put a fish stick in front of me and it's like, oh my God, no. My experience with it in the past is dictating now how I relate to it in the present. As I'm saying it to you, I'm like,

God, that's the silliest thing in the world, right? But yet we do it all the time until we can say exactly what I just said. Okay, well, that's not really helping me. And I can't really control this individual, my boss, who is a person of authority, but I can control myself in terms of how I respond to him. And if I don't want the story to be familiar, then what I can change is my role in the story. And so if we take that, what I'm going to ask you is how can you change your response in the face of senior level executives that would create a different dynamic than what it has up until now? I mean, I definitely think I need to engage more with them and get more info. I need to proactively get more information from them. I want us to

take this piece around engagement. And I'm glad you're being honest with yourself around, hey, this is where I have difficulty, right? Is in engaging with them. It's not comfortable. It doesn't make me feel good. It feels like there's something inauthentic in it. And that's okay. That actually means that you're doing something different. That's why it's hard, you know? That's why it feels hard. Your growth comes out of discomfort, but it is going to feel uncomfortable, okay? And what I'm going to suggest is let's kind of take bite-sized chunks and break it down.

Let's start with how do you actually frame what the conversations are about and frame it in a way that's relevant to them. Let me go into these meetings with a set of questions. And then I do think you need to have some point of view in your back pocket, some perspective. But the perspective doesn't need to be fully baked. I think you're at the point of being able to say, here, I can put a stake in the ground around here are three possibilities. So my stake in the ground is I want to commit to coming back to you with a proposal around what a role could look like.

Does that work for you? Yes. So what I'm suggesting here is that you break it down into parts that always lead to action and lead to something concrete rather than trying to go from zero to 100 in terms of final resolution in one or two conversations I don't necessarily think that you have enough information and that you've built enough traction in relating to them to be able to garner what it is that you really want. I think that's completely accurate. Totally fair. Yeah. So I know that what you came in with was wanting to kind of get this crisp message, right, around how you position it. And, you know, sometimes what we

want isn't exactly what we need in the moment. The other thing is, you know, and I've said this, I'm just, I just think it's worth repeating. The skills that you are using to build a business are no different than what you need to be doing here. So I want you to think about if this were your client, how would you approach it? Right? I actually think your, your biggest obstacle is what we just came to a few minutes ago, which is this tension that you feel around giving yourself permission to engage in a different way than you have before. It's very interesting that you've connected the dots. I mean, it's because I even, when I would, you know, I'm in sales, but I have never connected the dots. I have connected the dots with selling my brand, owning my brand, but I haven't connected the dots as clearly with these individuals of, you know, I would tell my whole sales team, go in and all you're doing is asking questions, asking questions, asking questions, asking questions. And I'm not doing that with them.

I'm not doing that. Yeah. And I think what's important here is recognizing why you didn't. And it's this story, this narrative that you've had around dealing with these types of people. And we all have those types of people, right? Yep. Yep. And not recognizing that you can actually deal with them in a different

way that you have in the past. And what does that different path look like? That different path means I actually give myself permission to engage, to ask the questions, to not perform, to not feel like I have to have the answer. That's going to be the biggest difference for you. That's great. All right. So we've covered a lot of ground. So I'd love to hear from you. You don't have to summarize everything, but I would just love to hear as you're walking away from this conversation, what are two or three key takeaways that you have? I think number one, one of the, one of the big takeaways is getting more information and testing the hypothesis of,

you know, there is, there is something in, you know, what I can bring to the table and a value that I can add to the organization at large, but I don't, I don't have enough information. So I need to go and really understand, is there a pain point that this serves or not? So that's number one. I think just reframing the conversations with my boss is really helpful. So thinking about bite-sized chunks, you know, framing, sort of starting over, framing those conversations, bringing questions, and then having sort of action steps after the fact. I think that's what kind of led us to, I do not have the traction in engagement with them. So I think kind of all of that led to, you know, this, this sort of block that I have with them, which is really the bridge, right?

It's unlocking that the way to be authentic, transparent, understand their needs, wants, and hopes for the organization and how I can insert myself, which is what I'm really good at once I can get to that level, but I have not gotten the traction. And the reason for that is really something that I own. I think you've given me some tactics to actually unlock that or start to unlock it in a way that I can have ownership over. And I think let myself off the hook in the immediate for what is the next role look like and just kind of understand more and then try to own crafting something that feels good, that doesn't feel just adding work, but feels meaningful and exciting.

Where Grace ended up by the close of our coaching session was certainly not what she expected coming in. That's the way it happens many times. People want an off the shelf, simple solution for what is a complex, multi-layered, nuanced situation. And my job is to make sure they don't just check the box, but really do the work, so they can break through the issue and take action that will actually last. Grace came in wanting her crisp, concise elevator pitch.

And she left recognizing that she was putting the cart before the proverbial horse. That what she needs to do first, beyond just outperforming in her current role, is engage more effectively with her senior team. What I think is great is that she walked away with a plan that anyone can use when trying to lay the groundwork to position yourself for what's next. Start by engaging through listening and asking questions to figure out where leadership wants to take the company. And then define and articulate to yourself what's the value that you bring over and beyond job performance. And finally, validate whether there's an intersection between what your organization needs and what you can bring.

This is how you can start laying the groundwork to position yourself for what's next. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time... We're currently in this like very uncomfortable position where my team is having issues with the founder, who is a very, very wealthy white man. Thanks to my producer, Mary Du, assistant producer, Liz Sanchez, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show.

Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is Muriel Wilkins. you