Women at Work - No Partner, No Kids, No Problem

Episode Date: May 6, 2019

Just because some of us are single and childless doesn’t mean we don’t have problems at the office or responsibilities outside of it. We talk with a woman who’s been writing a series of essays about her singlehood, as well as a researcher who studies this demographic. Guests: Shani Silver and Tracy Dumas. Our theme music is Matt Hill’s “City In Motion,” provided by Audio Network.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. So what I'm most interested in learning about in this conversation is whether there is bias against single childless women and how the bias shows up. Right. And it sounds like it's possible the bias could be favorable in some ways, right? We've seen research that shows that single women make as much as married men with children or close to. But we're also seeing a lot of evidence that they're not treated well and thought less of. So I'm going to be curious to see how that research shakes out. Yeah.

I'm just excited to hear more about new research that's being done in this area. I feel like more women are delaying having children and getting married until later and later in their professional careers and their lives. And I don't know if that has been studied super well aside from areas like pay. So I just want to see what we know from research about this demographic. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Gallo. This episode, we're exploring some of the questions and tensions around being a single, childless woman in the workplace. Because the organization says, well, you know, you don't have anything, you don't have anything else to do, so you can take this extra work. And that can then be a problem for a single childless person who does have an active life outside of work or who's seeking an active life

outside of work. That's Tracy Dumas. She's an associate professor at Ohio State University's Fisher College of Business. We'll talk with Tracy later in the show about the challenges that single childless women often face at work. First, my conversation with a woman who's been reflecting a lot lately about her own singlehood, the writer Shanie Silver. Thank you for taking time to talk to us. Thank you for having me. Okay, so Shanie, you have been writing a series for Refinery29

called Every Single Day. And it's about what your life as a 36-year-old single childless woman is like. And in the series so far, you've written about how online dating is awful after 30, how if you need help, you have to hire it, and how in the end, you are totally fine. But one thing that surprised us was that you didn't write about work or you haven't written about work yet. Why not? Right. I think there are probably a lot of reasons and also maybe no reasons. I think what I write about for refinery is typically what I'm the most passionate about in sort of like sometimes negative and angry way. I certainly think that's how it can tend to come across. But also, I think when being single has affected me in the workplace, it's been really that sort of one-off

thing that happens that I handle and process and that sort of thing. And with the series on Refinery, it's more about the day-to-day existence for single women and how that's different and how it's also not overlooked. It's just, you know, nobody knows about it because how would you unless you have been living like this? But I'm just wondering, have you seen any upsides professionally to being childless and single when you think about it? Yes. Yes. I have absolutely seen upsides to being single and to not having children professionally for sure. The biggest upside is just time. I think that I have a lot of time luxury that parents do not have, because I'm essentially just taking care

of me. And parents are taking care of definitely more than just themselves. And naturally, a greater portion of your day is going to be taken up with that caregiving and raising of a family. And because I don't do that, there is time in my day that I can give to, you know, not just my normal nine to five, but also any kind of, you know, side project or creative project or something that I want to pursue. I just noticed that I have far more time luxury than certainly my friends that are parents and my colleagues that have been parents. On the other side of things, I really haven't noticed any massive negatives to being single. I haven't ever missed out on professional opportunities or been overlooked in any way

or have been, you know, my status has never been frowned upon professionally. So you said, you know, no, no real negatives to the single side of it. Do you think there are downsides professionally to being childless? Yes, I think so. They're a little bit more subtle, and you have to kind of have experienced them to notice them. But yes, I have definitely seen downsides to not having kids. And that where I've noticed it the most is in the forgiveness that is given to people who are coupled or who have children in the workplace when it comes to taking time for their personal lives in a way that that same forgiveness is not translated to someone who

is single. For example, there are two that really stand out in my mind. The first one is if someone in the workplace says, you know, I'm going to be gone for the next two weeks because I'm getting married. That's a really reasonable request. I think between travel and, you know, managing family flying in somewhere and actually having a wedding and then going away for a honeymoon, two weeks is a really reasonable time frame for that, for sure. And I always wondered, you know, if I was just to show up at work one day and say, hey, listen, I'm going to take two weeks off because I need to do something in my personal life as well.

Would that receive the same kind of or the same level of forgiveness or level of okayness that someone getting married gets? And I don't think it would at all because, you know, there are subtle judgments about any kind of vacation anyone takes ever because we live in kind of a burnout culture. But it definitely seems less important than someone who is married or has children. would be when parents leave at the end of the workday or arrive at the beginning of the workday, at the same time, every day, consistently, like a hard out at 5pm. The assumption being that they're going to obviously pick their children up from school or relieve a nanny or something like that. There's very little judgment around that. It's something they have to do every day at a certain

time. And this is part of being a parent, obviously. And that's just what's going to happen. And there is very little, you know, negativity surrounding that, nor should there be any negative negativity surrounding that. But if I was to leave as a single childless person on the button every day at a certain time that would be considered early in our current professional culture, I think that I would be judged for that. There have been questions like, where are you going? You know, big plans tonight,

things like that, just sort of those invasive questions that are really nobody's business. But definitely, there are more inquiries around how I spend my time because as a single woman with no kids, it's less clear. No, yeah, those examples really relate to me. The wedding one too is like, weddings are this big event that people can, a lot of people can relate to. So when you're like, I'm taking two weeks off for this, like it kind of clicks in their mind versus like, I'm just taking two weeks to find myself. It's very different. Have you ever been asked at work or have you ever been asked in an interview if you're married or if you have kids? I've been asked a lot. And it's always in a really subtle way. Like it'll just be like during the course of conversation, somebody will be like, well, I don't know if you're married or whatever. But and part of it's obvious, I don't wear a ring. But also, the question has just come up really overtly before and I've taken multiple routes. I've answered it and I've not answered it. And I think to be like 100% honest with it, when I've answered it and said no, that I'm single, it's been because I want that to be to my advantage, because I have seen the sort of

judgments and assumptions made around women in my age bracket, particularly those that are married around, well, you know, is she going to get pregnant? Is she going to go on mat leave? Like, I've seen the judgments around it, because I've interviewed people, and I've gone through the hiring process before. And I've seen firsthand the discussions that come up around women that are interviewing. So yeah, kind of in a in a guilty way. Yeah, I've absolutely answered that question when I thought it could be to my advantage. And I've also refused to answer it because I've also wanted to protect my own boundaries and recognize earn like pretty close to what men do. So, you know, all the stuff about the gender pay gap, it's not as simple as that. Some researchers are calling it the motherhood wage gap because that like single childless women in terms of their

earnings look pretty similar to men. And it's really mothers who take a hit. So on the one hand, if we look at this research, you know, single childless women are at this pay advantage, but you have written about how not having someone to split the bills with is a loss. So there is a cost to not being coupled up in that way. So we're wondering what the happy middle is. Have you found one? Is there a happy middle between these two realities? I don't know, but if you find it, I would like you to let me know because I can't seem to locate it. And I think on the one hand, I do benefit from a lack of, you know, the the motherhood wage gap for sure. But at the same time, I'm still really angry about it. And I don't think it's fair. I don't think mothers should ever take a professional

or financial hit. That's one side of things. The other side of things, obviously, is for single women, I think that that financial hardship is a lot more private and a lot less discussed. Because you don't really realize that like, yeah, I am paying for everything myself with no financial support or splitting of anything ever. I don't think that there's a happy medium. I don't think there's a perfect existence for anyone, no matter what their status is, no matter whether or not they're partnered or parents. There's just all of us sort of out here

trying to do the best that we can do with what we've got. And that's really the closest I've come to reconciling it in my brain is that everyone's just doing their best. So you touched on, you know, judgments and assumptions that can be made toward women of a certain age, you know, interviewing for a job or whatever. Have you experienced or felt or wondered about judgments and assumptions made about your status? Of course, yeah. I think it's really hard to

interview with somebody in what would be considered, you know, the decade where you're likely to have kids. I think it would be silly to think that people weren't wondering that about me for sure. And the one thing that I have noticed professionally that I'm sort of thought of in a different way or seen in a different way or maybe bucketed into a different bucket is when I'm very open and honest about the fact that I don't want children at all. And I think that there's like a cold assumption about women that don't want to be mothers. And I have noticed among colleagues that there is just sort of this chilly bucket that I'm put in when I'm very open about the fact that even if I am parted one day,

I do not want to have children be a part of my life ever. I mean, I want to play with other people's kids. Like, let's not let's not be drastic, like, love that all my friends have babies, and we get to all hang out and go to brunch together. And it's amazing. But I just choose not to have my own. And I have noticed that there can be sort of this stigma attached to somebody who does not want children and is very open about that. And there's always this like pull for more information about that. Like, is it because I can't? And then suddenly there's this understanding and warmth that's put back onto me.

But that's not the case. It is just simply a decision of mine that I have made and it's one that I think um buckets me as somebody who is not as um not as nurturing of a person or as warm of a person and I I don't think that's the case at all and I wish that it wasn't because I think that there are so many ways to be a nurturer particularly in the workplace when you are dealing with direct reports whose careers you want to help develop and whose skill sets you want to help develop and who you want to be a mentor for. And I love mentoring. Absolutely love it. I love having them. I love being a mentor to others. And I think that I have been saddened by any, you know, assumptive coldness attached to me in that way.

So I'm also curious, do you think men and women, single men and women, childless men and women are viewed differently? Oh, my God, yes. I mean, and maybe I'm wrong, but like, I don't think that there's any sort of stigma attached to a man who says he doesn't want kids. I don't think there's any stigma attached to a man who says he doesn't want to get married um but I have seen stigma attached to myself for saying that I want to get married and I'm

obviously not married and I'm not dating anybody so there's inherent sadness attached to that even though it's like not sad at all in my mind um and then there's the inherent stigma of being very open about not wanting children. So the things that that breeds stigma toward women, in my experience, have not bred the same kind of stigma when attached to men. Yeah. The inherent sadness. The inherent sadness. That gets thrown on you. Yeah. That'll be the title of my autobiography one day. That's a good one. That's a really good one. What does the future hold for business?

Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Mudupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life.

Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. Shani talked about some of the bias she's encountered at work, policies that don't meet her needs, norms that leave her feeling disrespected, colleagues who think she's cold. We wanted to see how widely shared those challenges are for women and how to handle them. It is tough to disclose and discuss aspects of your non-work life that are different from your colleagues. Tracy Dumas studies the relationship between people's personal and professional lives. One of her areas of expertise is status, like marital status, and she's done

research on single childless employees. Tracy, we're super excited to talk to you. Thank you for making time for us today. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Maybe we can start by you telling us what are some of the most common stereotypes about working women who've never been married and who don't have kids? Yeah, so if we think about stereotypes in general, the stereotype and gender norms are that women are supposed to be warm and they're supposed to be nurturing, they're supposed to be helpful, they're supposed to be nurturing. They're supposed to be helpful. They're supposed to be supportive of other people. And what we know is that a woman who is married and has children gets a bump on the warmth component because, all right, well, even though

she's this career woman, she has these traditional gender roles. So she's in a romantic relationship with a man. She has children. So she's in this nurturing role. And so we do see differences then in the way single women are viewed with respect to this particular stereotype component. So that's a part of it. broadly on a societal level, you can think of being a single childless woman almost as a stigmatized identity, right? So there are derogatory terms associated with being a woman who's not married. And then if we're thinking about your responsibilities and activities outside of work, then they are seen as perhaps trivial or frivolous or less important than the responsibilities of caring for a home, caring for a family. Right. So we see them as cold spinsters who have no life.

Well, I didn't say that, but certainly if you put together. I'm just trying to put together what you just said. Yes, correct. Correct. That would be consistent with what we know from research. So I'm just wondering, what do we know about working women who are single, who don't have children? What do we know about their lives at work and outside of work? What we know from existing research is that their lives are much more complex than is assumed. And in fact, although single childless people don't have things like child care responsibilities, they don't have the same level of domestic responsibilities. What we do see in our research is that they are reporting more community involvement. They are reporting more personal development. That's even controlling for age.

What we also know from research is that there are assumptions about their lives. There are assumptions about how family structure shapes what you're doing outside of work. There's this expectation that they don't have responsibilities, that they are fully unencumbered and able to totally give themselves over to work. They're going to be available for any extra tasks. They're going to be available at the last minute to travel or to stay late or to work on the weekend. And so if I think about a personal example, several years ago when I was still a junior faculty member, I was asked to take a faculty candidate out to dinner. You know, can you take this person out to dinner? Because everyone and I think it was like the day before. So can you do it tomorrow night? Because everyone else has a family responsibility that they have to take care of. So, you know, can you can you do this? Right. And so the expectation is, I didn't have anything else to do. And that I was that I was going to be able to take this

person. And I was very happy, actually, that I was going to be flying out to present research at a conference. I was very happy that I had a work-related excuse that people were going to respect because often the non-work commitments of single childless workers may not necessarily be respected or they're seen as frivolous or trivial or not a good reason. So if I had said, well, I'm committed to volunteering or I sing with my church choir and I have to go to rehearsal or then there is some concern that those responsibilities may not be respected in the same way. for caring for a family member or even a friend who is like family, how do you talk to your boss about needing to take time off for that, for the flexibility you need? Yeah, so that's a great question. And I'm glad that you mentioned friend as well, because for people who don't have children or who, for whatever reason, didn't form a traditional family structure for many of those people those. So I would say, you know,

first of all, just understand exactly what are the policies in your organization, because there are some organizations that have leave options that are not explicitly tied to parental duties or that are not just maternal leave. So I would say, first of all, just become really familiar with the policies in your organization. Then I would say, first of all, just become really familiar with the policies in your organization. Then I would say have a conversation with your supervisor about the accommodations that you need, explicitly what you need, but also I think have some solutions about how to make it work as opposed to just, hey, I need this time. Can you help me? I think that's the way to work in a system that doesn't have a pre-established set of structures in place to help you meet your non-work responsibilities. Right. That makes sense. So let me ask this. What are the benefits professionally of being a childless single woman? Yes. So on the one hand, there is potentially this deficit with respect to, well, you're not seen as warm.

You're not as high on this warmth component. But there is also this expectation that, well, if you don't have a spouse and children to care for, then you can work just like a man. And there is this notion that perhaps single childless women are a new version of the ideal worker, that they can be here all hours if we need them to be. They can travel at the last minute if we need them to be. They can travel at the last minute if we need them to be. They can totally devote themselves to work. This is the notion of the ideal worker. And historically, that ideal worker was a married man who had a wife who was not employed, who facilitated his ability to be this unencumbered person, totally focused on work, totally accessible for the organization

whenever they needed him, and he didn't have a competing set of responsibilities or commitments. And certainly, I think it's intuitive that, let's say, someone especially who's building a career, just getting started out, trying to establish themselves, then perhaps there is some benefit of being able to have this single-minded devotion to work. That benefit is somewhat dubious because there are also some challenges. And so one of the challenges is that they can internalize this notion that because I don't have a husband or child or household to take care of a burden on them because the organization says, well, you know, you don't have anything. You don't have anything else to do. So you can life outside of work or who's seeking an active life outside of work. Or, you know, well, I don't have a family now, but I'd like to have one. I'd like to have the time to meet people and go dedicated to work that you don't have much of a life and yet wanting a life but not having the time to build one, go on dates, meet people, whatever.

How do you navigate that conundrum? There's a combination of things. One is as an individual being very intentional about drawing those boundaries yourself. So communicating to your organization or your co-workers and making a decision yourself that you are going to protect your participation in your non-work life. But certainly what we also see is that the organization has an important role to play. I have some research, it's another collaboration with Jill Perry Smith, that looks at different types of policies. And so what we found is that single childless workers responded more to these, what we call progressive policies, things like leave time that's granted perhaps to

volunteer or a compressed work week is a little bit more non-traditional than a standard flex time policy, which would be a situation where I can, instead of working nine to five, I can start at seven and leave at three. So just shifting the schedule. So that would be a typical standard flex time policy. And those findings from that paper are very consistent with other findings that we've seen in terms of creating a culture that is friendly to single childless people where they feel respected and they feel equal in the workplace. And they don't feel as if there's this pressure for them to do something different in the workplace than their colleagues who are married

or have children. So, Tracy, if your company doesn't have those policies, however, how as a single childless woman do you navigate having a life? It might mean having some uncomfortable conversations with your manager or your supervisor. It might mean talking with human resources, personnel who can help you navigate or maybe who could mediate for you, who could advocate for you in the organization. What is clear, if I think again about research, what is clear from research is that when people have positive, full, active lives outside of work, it doesn't compete with their contribution in the workplace. There is a great article that was actually published several years ago in Harvard Business Review.

It was called Leadership in Our Midst was the title of the article. And that article was all about the civic engagement and community engagement of minority employees and how they learned really valuable skills from managing their church choir or being actively involved in a minority alumni association of their university. And that people were developing incredible leadership skills in these roles, skills that were very valuable for the organization. And so those types of activities are certainly not family specific. We could see single childless people being very active in those types of activities. So part of, I think, advocating in your organization is communicating not just this idea that I just want to go have fun sometimes, or I just want to, you know, go have fun sometimes or I just want to go socialize sometimes. But this is a part of making me and allowing me to be my best in the workplace as well.

I wanted to ask about more about bias against single women. I've heard the assumption made that single women without children just aren't married or don't have children yet, as if the presumption is that all women just want to have children and get married. And that's our goal. How should single women respond to these kinds of presumptions when they hear them in the office? Right. you're talking about how to navigate that with a manager, part of it might be talking to them about your strategic plan for yourself, your five-year plan, your career goals, and communicating with them, you know, even finding someone in the organization who can play a mentor role or a sponsor role. What I think is important about that or would be helpful about that is it gets people

enlisted and involved in supporting you. It also communicates your intention and your motivation for moving forward. And hopefully then what it also does is it enlists them in thinking about how you can achieve those goals irrespective of what your family situation might be, right? But it is unfortunate that that is a perception that women have to face. It's like, you know, it's a problem if you do, it's a problem if you don't. And you can't, no matter what you do, you can't escape problematic assumptions and expectations about ultimately how your family status is going to negatively impact your contribution or your devotion to work. Right. Another thing I've like wondered about, it's not necessarily a challenge, but

like one thing that a lot of people at work connect over is having a partner and their kids. You know, I have been asked several times just like really, you know, nicely by colleagues or by people at networking events like, oh, do you have children? I want to tell you the story about my children. I want to know if you'll understand. To me, it seems like the implication there. And I never really know how to respond. I just, I say no. And then I worry that I'm just shutting that conversation down and I'm not seeming warm, you know, if that is something that's kind of expected.

Do you have any advice for, if you're feeling socially excluded because you don't have a partner and you don't have kids, like how do you manage that? Yes. Okay. So, and I totally can identify with that. I've experienced that as well. And it's such a common question. You know, listen to their story. And my guess is that even if you don't have your own children, maybe you have nieces or nephews or maybe you have a good friend who has children. So maybe what you could say is, well, you know, no, I don't have kids. But you know, your story is really funny. And it reminds me of something that I, you know, my college roommate has a daughter who I just adore. And she had a similar situation or something like that.

So that that's one easy way, I think, to pivot the conversation. So no, I don't have kids myself. But I know kids. I've experienced, I've experienced kids. I've interacted with them. So if you're just trying to connect and have commonality And so some people like to avoid shop talk and that that's understandable. And if and if you do shop talk too much, then you can be potentially seen as someone who doesn't have anything else to do. But in terms of connecting with people, I think that's not a bad way to start. And there's actually some research that would suggest that, that the tasks that we do, the work that we do, can help bridge differences as well, because it is something that we have in common when we work in the same organization. So I think those are some ways to connect and deal with that, because I think that is a very real concern, that how do I connect with these

people when my life outside of work is so different from everyone else's. Tracy, thank you so much for sharing all your insight on this. Thank you very much for having me. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning

for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. I've been thinking about like the upsides and the downsides of, that's kind of like how I thought about how I put some of this research and this idea into context. Right. So what do you mean? And well, so Tracy touched on like there are benefits and downsides to being a single or unpartnered woman with no children at work.

And so for me, like some of the upsides of that, I feel like there's a lot of mobility that comes from being single or childless. So I was able to move from New York to Boston, like not on a whim, but really without having any intense negotiations with a partner, with a family. I was able to make that decision. So there's a lot of mobility there when I was single and 23, I could make the decision to move for work. I could have a more like single, not single minded, but I was to have kids, it would be very different. So I think that mobility, freedom, personal growth and time to pursue like your own individual interests. Those to me are all upsides of being single and not having children. But there are some of the downsides for me are like I think I have terrible work life balance because I don't have those family responsibilities. I have additional time and I feel like I should be spending that on work, especially at this point in my career, too, which is it's earlier. I'm still starting out. I'm wanting to prove myself.

I want to take advantage of every opportunity that comes my way. So I very rarely say no to things. So my work-life balance is terrible. And then also I think it's true too that like managers or, you know, colleagues, there can be more expectations for single childless women to like put in more time or do more work because it's... Or to take up the slack. To take up the slack because it's known that like there aren't these other obligations, or it's assumed that there aren't these other obligations waiting for you. So that's a downside. I think FOMO is a downside too. Like I'm seeing more and more like friends

and acquaintances on social media and Instagram and things like people post pictures of their babies and their partners and their pets. And so there's like a FOBO that comes with that too. And that comes up in the workplace when people are talking about like their weekends and going on family trips or, you know, going to kids recitals and things that can make me feel weird sometimes to talk about like my somewhat uneventful weekend. You know, it's interesting about that though, is that if you look at the happiness studies, people with kids aren't happier. I just think there's something more legitimate about it. I totally agree with that. Like the zoo trip seems more legit when you probably are much more happy in the sculpting class. Like it's hard to figure out why that FOMO would happen when we know, says the working mom, that having kids isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Yeah. And there's like a certain sense of guilt maybe that comes with having more free time than other co-workers like I do have the time to work later or just to work at weird hours and to like raise my hand for more things right and that I don't know I felt guilty about that sometimes which is weird but wow so I think of working moms as just guilt ridden all the time. Always. So I guess the guilt thing is just a matter of perspective. Right. Well, I think we work in a work culture that just makes you feel bad for not working all the time.

Yeah. Because that whole thing about the ideal worker filled me with horror. And I recognized a lot of it and, you know, took me to a very dark place. And I think you're talking a little bit about that too, Nicole. Yeah, yeah. I think that comes up. Do you feel like you're expected to be the ideal worker? No, I think it's totally self, I mean, it's self-inflicted. I don't think anyone

expects any of us to be, but I think that saying no is frowned on. Right. And I really related to her story of saying she was so relieved she had a legitimate work reason to say no to that request to take the professor out to dinner. And I do, I think I rely on the legitimacy of having a child a lot as an excuse for not doing things. So one of the things I've learned is that you don't have to give an excuse. You can say, I can't. And that's enough. You don't actually have to give chapter and verse on why. Yeah. Although given all of the bias that we talked about with her, do you feel like just saying no without an excuse would somehow harm you? I don't. I don't.

And, you know, it sort of depends. I mean, we don't get asked to do that sort of thing. But for a work dinner, let's say, I think it's better if you don't want to go on a work dinner, let's say a group outing, it's better to say I can't then I'm too tired. You know what I mean? Right, right. Something I've wondered, like in thinking about this and in hearing Tracy, I'm wondering what you both have experienced or thought about this, but I feel like there are assumptions about how people who don't have children spend their time. And maybe not as even assumptions, but it's just that like because you're not taking care of children or you don't have family responsibilities, like what you're doing outside of work can be seen as more frivolous.

Yeah, it's optional. And so like sometimes I just hear like what co-workers think I do outside of my work and it's like they think I'm at the club all the time. Wait, you're not at the club?

I'm never at the club. I'm never at the club. But it is like, yeah, Nicole's going out. She's going to have a lot of fun. Like this is how she spends her evenings and her weekends

and I find that hilarious because it's not true. But I'm wondering if that, like does that change when you get married? I feel like does that change when you get married? I feel like it must change when you have children. I think everyone I think all our co-workers assume I just go home and do laundry and watch TV. Right. Because that is the assumptions you make about married people.

As a working mom and other fellow working moms will always say what did we do with our time before because having a child does feel like such a ginormous time suck that you're sort of like and so you imagine all these things you should have done like go to the club or visited with friends or traveled or picked up hobbies and so then you sort of get wistful about those things and i think we project in some ways positively on single co-workers as you must just be having so much fun because I am not. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things which I think I was somewhat aware of going into the conversation, but was really emphasized was how excluded single childless women must feel when the conversation turns to children or turns to partners. And I mean, I had a friend who's a lesbian point out to me once.

She said, pay attention to how quickly straight women mention their husband and kids in a conversation. And it really was, including myself, it was frightening. It was like within the first two minutes of almost any casual work conversation. So, I mean, one of the things that occurs to me when this happens, and it happens all the time, is it's totally understandable that people, women who are married to men and have children, have a lot to talk about on those fronts. I mean, those are very absorbing aspects of their lives. It's just, you know, the fact of the matter is if you're not married to a man and you don't have children,

it's a conversation that, you know, has only limited interest. Yeah. What do you think about asking people, do you have kids? I feel like that's such a common question, and yet I've also heard people say that is so rude to ask someone you don't know. If you don't know them personally enough to know whether they have kids or not, don't ask the question. I don't know. I think it's kind of harmless, and it's a way to connect. Okay, I did it last week. It's a conversational gamut when you're just trying to figure out what you're going to talk about.

It's a little less ridiculous than, you know, how about those Yankees? Yeah. Right. I think it is relatively harmless. I had brought it up as an example because maybe when it makes me feel the most uncomfortable is when someone is telling me a story or about to tell me a story. And then they preface that by saying, oh, wait, do you have kids? And I say no. And then it's like, well, I not understand your story.

I don't know. I don't think it's rude or even intentionally like made to be uncomfortable. But it's something that I've noticed I can stumble to answer later. Yeah. It can be to answer later. Yeah. It can be awkward on the other side. But, you know, a no usually handles it. Yeah. Well, and I think the presumption that you wouldn't understand the story because you don't have kids is the rude part, maybe, of that scenario, not necessarily the question.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Right, exactly. But there's another part about, you know, do you have kids, which is that we're all looking for the thing that lights up the person we're talking to, particularly a stranger. And usually kids is what lights people up. You know, they love to talk about their kids or their grandkids or whatever. And so that's really, it's just an honest attempt to find out what, to see someone at his or her best. Single, married, with children, without children. But then single women and married women have other identities that aren't researched or validated. I mean, I think friend is probably top three for me. And yet no one's like, how are your friends? Or, you know, when you say I'm going to meet a friend, that feels like something that's really easily pushed. As opposed to I'm going to pick up my kid. And I'm just curious what you all thought of that as an extra identity.

I went in another direction because I remember from being single that my friends were my family more so than they are now. And so if a friend was in need, it was much easier for me to drop everything and to be there. Yeah. I mean, I had one of those experiences this summer where a friend who had very little biological family needed support and I had to drop everything and go. And I was hesitant about sharing it because I thought it wouldn't be seen as legitimate. But then when I did, people were incredibly understanding. Yeah. I mean, haven't most of us been there? Yeah. Yeah. True. How are your friends? They're good. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Nicole Torres.

And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Kersey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buchholz. Maureen Hoke is our supervising editor. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart. Erica Truxler makes our discussion guides. Jam Olajars is our copy editor. And thanks to Jenny Rollins for her production assistance on this episode.

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