Women at Work - Should I Change My Last Name?

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

If you plan to get married, do you see yourself keeping or changing your last name? How much, if at all, does your career factor into that decision? Our associate producer, who’s engaged, spoke with three recently married women about the professional considerations that factored into their decisions. Hannah and the Amys then join former co-host Nicole Torres to discuss how their names are connected to their personal brands.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash womenatwork. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. Something our former co-host Nicole Torres told us last year when we were talking about personal branding inspired this episode. Well, as soon as you said personal branding, I thought of something very different. And that might just be like time in my life and

what like my closest friends are talking about, which is like women change their names and that affects your personal brand. And how do you handle that decision? I'm like having a lot of these conversations now with friends who are getting wed and some are changing their names, some are not. And we always have very interesting discussions about why or why not and how that affects their professional lives. So that is also a big part of branding that women have to consider. Totally. I mean, if you're interested in getting married in the first place, current numbers about what percentage of women are making which decisions about their maiden

names are sort of hard to come by. But Pew Research Center just published new findings the day before we're recording this about trends in the U.S. based on a survey they did earlier this year. Amy B., what did they find? Well, what they found really surprised me. I'm just looking at the report now, but what Pew found is that most women in opposite sex marriages, and by most, 79 percent. That's a lot. Four-fifths, basically. So they took their spouse's last name when they got married. All right. Guess how many kept their own name, kept their last name? Well, is it the opposite of 79%? 21% or whatever? inaccurate. Another 14% kept their last name and 5% hyphenated both their name and their spouse's name. So I started wondering about, you know, the Sarah Green Carmichaels of the world. So our former co-host, Sarah Green Carmichael kept her maiden name and then her husband's name

without a hyphen. And that is just 1% of the respondents. So you said it was 79% of women in opposite-sex marriages who changed their name. What about women in same-sex marriages? Well, the Pew Center says they didn't get enough of a sample size to find that out. So we don't know. Increase your sample size. Because I would like to know. One more finding that I love to share is that among women who have never been married, a mere 33% say they take their husband's last name. Yeah. And then the other finding that I'm finding so interesting is that the number of those who are not yet married, saying they'll keep their own name, they keep their last name, 23%.

Remember, it was 14% of people who are married. Yeah. Interesting. But a full quarter of respondents said that they're not even sure yet. Right. Right. Yeah. Was there anything in that study about whether career aspirations affect,

or like anything about their career affects that decision? Well, this is me scanning the article. Not seeing anything about career. Hang on. Closest we get is that far more women with some college or less took their spouses' names, 83%, than did women with a postgraduate degree. That was just 68%. Is there anything about what influences their decision? No, it's really a readout of the numbers.

The numbers, yeah. There's that kind of analysis. Yep. It'd be interesting to know what factors for that 79% or even the 14% or those even who hyphenate, what influenced that decision? Yep. I would love to know more. I think we're going to get into that, though, aren't we? Yeah. So, Amy G., when you and Damien got engaged, did you consider giving up Gallo and taking his last name? Which I just learned.

I've known you for years. I just learned his last name. His last name is Vania, and my name is Amy. It's a long A with a long A. So it wasn't going to sound pretty, Amy Vania. But I have to be honest, that never even crossed. Like, it was just not an issue. Like, I was, I've always been Amy Gallo. It's almost one word. The idea of changing that seemed so foreign to me. And you are not Amy V.

I'm not Amy V. I'm Amy G. You are. feelings about taking a man's name that just didn't sit well with me. It just felt, and I mean, I reasoned, of course, like my current name is also a man's name, my father's name. And at one point I even considered my parents are divorced. My mom kept my dad's name. So she and I have the same last name. And at one point I considered taking her maiden name as my last name to sort of give it like the matrilineal line. But then I was like, well, that's just my grandfather's name, right? There's no way around that it's some man's name. And so I decided, you know, I've been Amy Gallo for a really long time. I can't imagine being anyone else.

Right. And it is your name. Yeah. So you got engaged. How far along were you in your career? I'd been working like 12 years at that point. So just over a decade. So how did that factor in? I mean, that's already a substantial amount of time in. Yeah. And I'd like to say it was a big factor, but I don't think i realized then the consequences of changing my name

like what the potential consequences and risks could be to my career right that i had invested 12 years of my life into building a reputation making connections establishing myself as amy gallo and like i don't think I thought about the costs of switching, partly because it wasn't a real consideration to change, but for professional reasons, I'm really glad I didn't. I think about how much my current career is influenced by those first 12 years, and it's a lot.

I have mentors. I have people who knew me in previous jobs. I have things I wrote under my name from that time. Right. To have all of a sudden a different name, I wouldn't have been comfortable with that cost. Yeah. It's disruptive, to say the least. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. What about you, Amy B? Did you and Dan talk about changing your names when you got married? No. No. But same-sex couples didn't really do that back then. And anyway, it was never even a consideration for us.

Why wasn't it a consideration? Well, for one thing, we were both deep into our careers. We both had our professional identities. I was 35 when we got together and Nan was 40. But, you know, same-sex couples didn't take each other's names. That was not yet part of the then brand new tradition of getting married. Right. Right?

A brand new tradition. That's an oxymoron. But, you know, first marriage wasn't available to us. Yep. That's an oxymoron. But, you know, first marriage wasn't available to us. And then when it was, yeah, there's no way that I then in my 40s would have changed my name. Yeah. That is late in the game. It's way too late in the game for me and for Nanette as well.

We talked about getting matching motorcycles and stuff like that, but nothing about our names. It's a perfect, perfect way to cement the bond. I do know people who've not hyphenated or even kept, like Sarah Green Carmichael kept their, I keep calling it original name, their maiden name. I don't even know what to call it. Maiden name also sounds terrible. I'm saying her own name as if that's a distinguishing factor. Anyway, yeah. The name they had at the time of marriage and then added.

But I know people who actually created, and I know a couple of same-sex couples who created a new name based on their last name. One of my favorite was Pearlmine and Volz, and they changed their last name to Pearls, P-E-R-L-Z. I was like, that is a cool name. That's a cool name, but that's like three times the disruption. But you know what? Good for them and how brave. Yeah. I also know another couple, opposite sex couple, where the husband really wanted to raise the kids with his faith and not his wife's faith.

And she said, that's fine, but in that case, they'll have my last name. And that was the trade they were willing to make. So it was a negotiation. Yeah. It's funny that both their kids are teenagers now. And I asked them recently, the adults, how they felt about the name for faith trade. And they're like, it's worked out really well. Amy G., you and i have been talking

about ancient history but sitting with us today is none other than hannah bates our associate producer and friend who is about to get married right when are you getting married yes uh june 15th 2024 it's also our dog's birthday she will be in the wedding. Nice. Yes. It's a must. Our dog was in our wedding. Oh, I love that. I would actually consider having a wedding if I could have my dogs in it. You just get remarried every time you get a new dog. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So Hannah, you know, Nicole brought up the whole question of personal brand when you're thinking about a name change. And I wonder how personal brand, your career, you know, just the kind of breadcrumb trail you've left of Hannah Bates. How does that all factor into your decision? So many thoughts and feelings. But I think it's

better if you hear all of those thoughts and feelings in the context of this conversation I had with three other women who've either gone through or are currently going through this same decision-making process. My name is Tanya Apul, which used to be Tanya Gupta. My name is Sayaka Hara, but it used to be Sayaka Kawano. And my name is Alex Shore, and it's saying Alex Shore. Well, Alex, you and I know each other because we work together. And you're leaving soon. And I was thinking last night, I was like, this is the first full-blown conversation I've ever had with Alex. And now I'm sad that I won't get to do that anymore.

I know. But that's how we know each other. And then you brought Sayaka to us. Yes. So me and Sayaka, when we were 21 babies, we started working together at, well, she still works for the company, at my old job. And we've been friends ever since. So like six, seven years. Oh, that's nice. And Tanya, you're no stranger to women at work.

Yes. This is your third time. This is my third podcast. We're excited to be here as always. Oh, love it. All right. Well, I've brought you all here today to talk about changing your last name or not. And that was something that I think like pretty immediately, like even before we got engaged, I knew I was going to keep my last name just because I feel very attached to it. It's Bates. It's that one syllable. Like it just punctuates, I feel like, my name. And I just, I don't know, I really like it. And also, you know, my dad passed away and

that's his last name. So it keeps me connected to him. Professionally, I did take my career into account when like making this decision. Also, like I'm a musician. So that is a consideration. You know, I do have like music goals that maybe someday like I will want, you know, I just want everything to be under Hannah Bates. But then also at this job, like my name is in all of the credits of the podcasts. And if I want to remain in podcasting, I feel like, I don't know, it's just more convenient to have my last name stay the same. There's no confusion there, like who's Hannah Bates versus Hannah Mortimer. Like I don't need to worry about connecting the two of them. So that's kind of how I came to the decision. But for all of you, how did that decision come up for you? And what were you thinking about? Tanya, why don't you start? So for the longest time, I didn't even think about it. The decision came up the day we were sitting on our computers trying to register a marriage. And this was all during

COVID. So everything was online. And then I saw the big question pop up, last name now, last name after marriage. I was like, oh my God, this is where I have to decide. Work was a very, very big contributor to that decision because I had that feeling that, you know, everything I've done in my life, I have been known by that person. And if I become this new person, then who am I really going to be? And I was expecting people to see me differently. I was expecting like I walk out of, you know, a washer or like a car cleaning facility and I'm a new person. I was expecting that. So how did you expect people would treat

you differently? So I think it was more to do with how my family is and how my husband's family is, because I think a family is associated by their last names primarily. My family is a little more impulsive, a little more traditional definition of fun, just getting out of bed and planning this is what they want to do. And my husband's family, they plan more. So I was like, am I going to lose myself? Am I going to just because I am part of a new family now, will I not be part of my old family in those traits, in those characteristics? So I think that was who I was worried I would become. Not like I don't like it. It's just it wasn't me. So I think that was what really concerned me about making the change. So it was more about how like your families would look at you differently?

A mix of that and also how I would look at myself, I think. So if I look at myself differently, if my family treat me a little bit differently, then why wouldn't my co-workers treat me differently? That's kind of where I think I went into that chain of thought and it's like they don't know who I am anymore. I think I was just overthinking to be honest at that point. I have read a bunch of research in preparation for this episode and people have thought and overthought this for their jobs. I feel like so. I feel like you definitely weren't overthinking it and like for, for sure, a valid consideration. Like, will people treat me differently?

Yeah. I don't know if I'm allowed to jump to the part now, but I really do think nothing changed. I still am the same person I was. I still go by my first name majorly everywhere, like work. Everybody knows me by Tanya. Nobody really uses my last name before or now unless they're introducing me for the first time well I guess when you're meeting someone new they from that point on are only and ever will know you as Tanya Appal yeah I think that has

sunk in but that was actually one of the reasons why I did change because I was talking to my husband about it's like you know I've spent what four years in the industry everybody knows me by this name and what happens and he just looked at me and of course, you know, like men don't think about this so much, I think. But he just logically said, you've spent four years in the industry and you have another 30 to go. And since then, I've just had that perspective open up to me. And sure, it hurts sometimes that people don't know my old name, but they know me and I'm still the same me. Right.

And like, nobody looks at me differently. At least I think nobody looks at me differently. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work.

That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey, listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor, Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business. Followed up with a mini lesson from Mudupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts.

Sayaka, what about you? What went into your decision to change your last name? So similar to Tanya, I never even thought about it real deeply until we were at the point of signing papers. I'm also Japanese. It's really common in Japan to change your last name. And I like the idea of having like a family unit. But I think also the choice of changing my last name was maybe a bit of an illusion because until prepping for this podcast, I didn't know that Japan had strict laws about name changes. They require you to have one of the same last name. It could be yours or your partner's last name, but everyone has to have the same last name. Interesting. Yeah. And it's really interesting too too because i talked to my mom about this a little bit too you also don't get marriage papers in japan the way that you like

prove your marriage is by family registry so you can just imagine a document there's like your last name is at the top and it kind of lists your spouse your kids and that's kind of how you handle everything so you can kind of trace your ancestry that way too. Interesting. And so I think my mom and my grandma had more of an emotional time when I legally got married. Because you have to do documentation to kind of remove yourself from your family. Oh my gosh. That sounds so good.

To start like a new family essentially with your partner. So that was really interesting I feel like I was just signing papers like you know we've been dating for a long time I think it was no surprise that I was getting married but I think when my mom was getting choked up I was like oh no like what did I do yeah that's wild that it's literally you're like legally removing yourself almost from your own family yeah did. Did you know that before you? Yeah, kind of. And like here, it's like social security is like your way to identify.

But I feel like whenever you do anything, you have to have your family registry to kind of prove your identity of sorts. And this is a little morbid. But when you like pass away and you have a gravestone, it's usually a family gravestone that you get buried into it's not your individual ones it's very much tied to the idea of family and the idea of having a same last name oh wow and I'm like because of this podcast I'm like oh my god I never thought so much into it um yeah but I guess that being, even though things did catch me by surprise, I think I don't regret changing it, even though right now I feel like I'm in the weird in between.

Like I haven't fully transitioned into my new name. I feel like even when I was signing in downstairs, I probably signed with my old name. So I feel like I have a dual identity still. Sayaka, remember how people in the office found out that you changed your last name? Yes. So I'm legally married. My wedding's next year, though. As soon as my name changed legally, I reported it to HR so that, you know, for tax reasons, pay steps, all of that. But the HR team was like, your email that has first and last name, you have to go through IT if you want to change it. Like, so I'm like, you know what? what I'm just not even gonna deal with changing my name like publicly or like internally within our company until maybe my wedding rolls around um and then one day over the summer I don't know

what triggered it but like my zoom slack like everything that we use in our work yeah had my new last name on it except for my email I woke up to a lot of messages from people being like when what happened like when did this happen and all about I'm like I have I I have no idea like I'm legally married I know um Hara is on my new last name is on some stuff but things like email is still my old last name just because we work with some people externally and I have like contract and things like that where I don't want things to get lost in the mix kind of. Yeah. So I feel like a spy sometimes because people can't find me. That's hilarious.

And Alex, what about you? Yeah. So I guess I have always thought kind of like you, Hannah, that I wanted to keep my name because it's so short and to the point. Like my full name is Alexandra Shore, but everyone calls me Alex. No one calls me Alexandra. And I just love the way Alex Shore sounds. It rolls off the tongue. It does. And even in work settings, this is kind of funny and embarrassing. People will call me like A show. So it's like a nickname. I feel like I've almost acquired at school or work. And I have liked that. Yeah. And so my fiance's last name is Young Schoffer, which is very long. And it's also German. And every time we go somewhere and he has to spell out his first name,

Johannes, and his last name, Youngschaffer, it takes probably 10 minutes to go back and forth spelling out the full name. It's a lot of letters. It's a lot of letters. And then people will ask, oh, is that a German name? Oh, what does it mean? And then we have to explain it means young hard worker, things like that. And so so it is cool but when I thought about changing my last name if I was changing it to Alexandra Youngshoffer I feel like I would be taking on some of that identity and some of those questions like go with it and it's not part of like my heritage so I just thought I'm just gonna keep it Alex Shore simple i like it it works in all situations so i like alex shore i'm a fan of you keeping it for what it's worth thank you tanya i have a question for you specifically on your

linkedin it says formerly gupta yep it does it still say that you got it right oh my god it does yeah um i think um i use formally for about a year and linda still says that because my professional connections from before know me as Gupta. So I feel like I'm going to keep that for a little bit. But it doesn't really hurt anybody. But even at my current place of work, I changed my email signatures. Everything said formally for about a year. And then by then I knew like nobody really called me with my last name anymore. So it's like, OK, I think this is time.

Yeah, so you feel like a year was like a good enough. Yeah, but I also did not change my name immediately after getting married. So I took about a year and a half to start making the change. And then we, like in Sayaka's case, we actually had the wedding a little bit after our legal registration in the US. So I feel like after the wedding, I got more comfortable in my skin, even though when I got my new passport, I was like, who is this person? That was a month before the wedding I got more comfortable my skin even though when I got my new passport I was like who is this person like that was that was a month before the wedding and I was freaking out just looking at it I was like this is not me and then something just changed in me after the wedding you

know it just felt like oh you know what this is my family now and I think that feeling that that became so beautiful that I just became more accepting and the immense amount of work that came with the logistics of it just became easier because I was like end of the day okay we're a family and that that made the difference to me it's really nice so you feel like you really identify with Tanya Upple yeah that's the hardest part getting people to say the names I think I do but I think it's more about maybe it's but I think I don't know but I think I just, but I think it's more about maybe it's a bad thing. I don't know, but I think I just kind of focus on Tanya more so. And then the rest is, you know, I think it's coming to me now.

I don't speak my old name so much anymore. It has happened still. Like Sayaka, you said, I think sometimes I just sign the old name and I don't realize it. It's like reassuring to hear you say that because my wedding's coming up and I'm just manifesting it for myself I feel like I'm in that weird in-between stage right um but I feel like once we have the wedding and it's like official and it's you know it's a beautiful feeling I'm sure I'm so excited like right now you're like both and neither. Exactly. I'm just floating till the wedding. So before we all came into the studio today, we all read this article by Dori Clark called How to Change Your Name and Keep Your Professional Identity. And in it, she goes through some advice for doing so, like announcing the change.

So you should send like an email blast to your colleagues letting them know that your last name just changed um she also talks about taking an online inventory of where your maiden name shows up so that could be like your social media accounts or your email accounts and she recommends like updating all of those at the same time so you don't confuse people. So did any of you do anything that she recommended you do? So I actually made a spreadsheet. Oh, okay. I made a list of categories and places where I needed to change my name. So it started with like social security, banking, HR, previous HRs, you know, like I had a list, which is still open to date because there are some things that I still haven't changed, like airlines, rental cars, you know, like those kinds of things.

So I did do that. And when I was changing it at work, I gave my managers a heads up, like, hey, if you see this name, it's still me. So they knew it. And then when we had the next team meeting, the office meeting, I just casually announced, hey, guys, if you see this name, it's me and so on and people I think everybody knew by then that I was married so it wasn't really like a shocker like like but I did let everybody know and then I had forwarding set up by IT and what else did I do I think I just I had a signature you know in my signature I had a statement saying that this is my new email please make sure you update address book and stuff like that.

I think the advice from the article about really announcing it yourself that your name changed is probably one that I'm going to take account into soon. Because I feel like it causes a lot of mess and confusion. Sayaka isn't really a common name, but people still message me being like, I can't find you in our system. Where did you go? So that's the one that I would definitely take away from that article. I remember when my mom changed her last name for the second time, like 10 years ago. She said that for a while. It was kind of nice that people couldn't find her.

She's like, I'm going to check out for a little bit. But then after a while, she was like, OK, this is concerning. So but I'm curious, Alex, you're not changing your last name, but people might notice that you're not changing your last name. Like, is there anything you're going to do? Like you can announce like, by the way, I'm staying Alex Shore or anything like that. Honestly, when I was reading the article, I was happy because I'm like, wow, I don't really have to do any of this. But to the point of announcing it, I'm starting a new job and I'm taking time off for my wedding. And so I guess when I start my new job, I'll just tell them, hey, just so you know, I am getting married this month at the end of the month and I'm not changing my last name. I probably will announce it at least to the core people on my team that are new just so they know that nothing will change but there's no sense

in doing like a wider announcement to people yeah I literally thought of you because I feel like starting a new job would be a clean way to start your new email like new everything so I envy you in that sense but I do wonder if people and I don't know if this is actually if this would like impact you in any real way but if people are just going to assume that shore is your husband's last name yeah it's not your maiden name i don't really know like what that means but just yeah um i had a really interesting conversation with one of my fiance's friends who is married and him and his wife have been married for like two years i think at this point and she still has not changed her last name but she intends to and part of the reason she is kind

of putting it off is because she is in med school she's going to be a doctor and she's like for the longest time i've always imagined when i become a doctor i'm going to be doctor her last name and not doctor his his last name. And she's like, I paid for med school. Like, I did all the hard work. Like, my name deserves to be attached to all of that. And if I changed my last name, it became doctor, his last name, then it's almost like I'm giving him some of the credit. And she's like, and he didn't do shit. Like, he didn't do anything, you know? and it got me thinking about even my last name like I am not a doctor and I did not go to med school nor did I pay for med school but I still feel like I have worked hard in my career

and I don't want to give Danny any of that like that is not his that is mine you know and maybe it depends on the industry you're in and what you do for work but that definitely got me thinking about all of the things I attach to my name and it's interesting to think about if I can ask why would you feel that you're giving him part of your life or your you know your credits the credits that are to your name why why do you feel so because it's it's his name i guess and let's say if i changed my name to hannah mortimer like hannah bates did the work to get here not hannah mortimer and maybe that's maybe that is me like overthinking it a little bit but yeah i guess i think that's why okay that makes sense i i was i was curious because i know that

a couple of my other friends who did not change their name thought that way and i guess i couldn't fully comprehend that it's almost like i feel like it's too late like i'm just hannah bates in the world now it's fair enough and hannah bates i will stay kind of thing so um i read a study that said almost 40 of all marriages end in divorce alex have you thought about like if you ever get divorced like oh well at least i get to keep my last name because i've thought of that yeah i mean it definitely makes it easier i guess and i think if if we get divorced i'll just stay the same and, you know, move on. It's like a prenup with yourself. Like, if all else fails, you keep your name, your identity.

I think that's all I have. Thanks, guys. Great job. That was good. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, everyone. After the break, Nicole joins me and the Amys to finish this episode she started.

What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. So, Nicole, we're here because you raised this question. So I think I need to put out there that I'm not married, nor has marriage been proposed to me.

But I do think about just this idea of women changing their names pretty often, like we talked about in the last show. And I've been going to a lot of weddings. A lot of my friends are getting married. They're grappling with this question. Me personally, I have never thought I would change my name because it is really tied to my identity and my professional background. I'm at a certain point in my career where I think my name matters to me, but I would change my name for a really cool last name. I changed my name to Nicole Chalamet, for example. But I think you can be quite strategic in that. That would also be maybe a professional brand decision about your name. I was looking at people who have really big, well-known professional

brands, celebs, who have changed their names. And Jennifer Lopez changed her name to Jennifer Affleck. Okay, but you names. And Jennifer Lopez changed her name to Jennifer Affleck. Okay, but you just called her Jennifer Lopez. I know, I know. And she acknowledges that, but she legally changed her name and isn't worried about, you know, she's at a certain point in her career, she's not worried about her brand suffering. But a more interesting one maybe was Amal Alamuddin became Amal Clooney. Yes. Yes. And she was a super successful lawyer.

But then, you know, there was a brand component there that made her change her name. She was probably being very strategic with that decision. And I think we can talk about it, maybe someone slightly less famous, like our former co-host, Sarah Green, became Sarah Green Carmichael. I remember stumbling a lot at the beginning, but now I think of her as Sarah Green Carmichael. I remember stumbling a lot at the beginning,

but now I think of her as Sarah Green Carmichael. She's SGC. I mean, the name has become her and she's become the name and it works. Yeah. I mean, I think it's daunting on this side of it to think, oh, I'm going to change my name. I'm going to lose all this professional collateral or, you know, even goodwill that I've built up or identity but I think a lot of people do it with quite good success with the advice like Dory's you can make it work yeah I still wouldn't do it but I mean you can make it work well Nicole I was going to say earlier to your point about personal brand and how you know Amal Clooney changed her last name because I mean look who she's married to I'm sure that helped her in some way but I think also a name has a vibe

like my fiance's last name is Mortimer Hannah Mortimer is a different vibe than Hannah Bates 100% and no shade to the last name Mortimer but it's just not the same and like even my mom when she was changing her her maiden name is Modig when she got married to my dad she said that when she changed her last name to Bates she was like Bates was just such like a power last name like I liked her name Susan

I liked Susan Bates and at that point she was like really getting her foot in the door into like corporate America and she liked that vibe it gave her. And also what we heard, I think Alex Shore's story about her fiancé's last name demonstrated this really well. Sometimes your last name carries this really cool story. Her fiancé's last name is Young Shoffer. It means young hard worker.

I have to imagine that's part of his personal brand. So let's say her last name, her maiden name is Young Shoffer. If she changed her last name, she'd be giving that up. So it's a lot to consider. It comes down to vibe. I totally 100% believe that. But doesn't it also come down to what you want the world to know about you? I mean, I guess that's personal brand, but I love my last name Bernstein. It tells you a little bit about who I am. I love that the world hears that name and says, oh, she's probably Jewish. That's part of who I am. And it's not obvious to look at me. So I do think that for some of us, the name is more

than just a vibe. There's a lot of meaning in it. Yeah, totally. So I'm like, I think about last names. I thought about last names in my life because I'm Filipino. And so I have like a Spanish last name, but I, you know, look like an Asian woman. And so it will distinguish my like ethnicity when people ask what my last name is. I'll say Torres and they'll be like, oh, usually they know they'll be like, oh, Filipinos have Spanish last names because of colonial history. And vibe-wise, I think it sounds cool. But Nicole Chalamet also sounds very cool. All right. I want to ask Nicole and Hannah a question. How much peer pressure do you feel about this whole question of whether or not to change your name? keeping their last names. But I do have some family members who, you know, they just assume like, oh, you're going to be like Mrs. Mortimer. And I'll be like, well, I'm actually keeping my

last name. And they kind of like, they're a little shocked. They're like, well, what about your kids? Like, and I was like, well, we don't know if we're going to have kids. And they're like, like they can't, like it doesn't compute to them. Does anyone counter what about your kids with what about your career? No. What about you, Nicole? Yeah, I think it's almost exactly the same. I think any, there would be no peer pressure. It would be like familial pressure. And just like think about, you know, yeah, think about your family, what it would mean having a different last name.

Not really any questions of, you know, how would the career that you've built up for yourself change? So that's sad and interesting. Well, the reason I ask is I remember, you know, back in the ice age when my peers were first getting married, some of my friends took their husbands' names and some didn't. And I remember one kind of oddly savage conversation about a friend who did not take her husband's last name, which was clearly viewed as a referendum on others' decisions to take their husband's last names. And, you know, that stuff happens because I think everyone's a little insecure about this decision one way or the other. Right. Yeah. know that stuff happens because i think everyone's a little insecure about this decision one way or the other right yeah but i had never even thought about this as a as a sort of a group decision before yeah well i mean i think it's very much influenced by your peers and by your family you know the other thing i think when you change your name, you are signaling I got married, right, which maybe not everyone you work with or who you know professionally knows. So you're sharing that information. And I think of women who've had children or who are even potentially having children and the bias they face of like, are they loyal? Will they care enough about the work?

Will they be able to dedicate enough time? Will they be torn? I think changing your name might invite that bias in some way. I'd be curious if there's research about that. But I mean, do you worry about that at all, Nicole or Hannah? I mean, you're not thinking of changing your name, but did that factor in at all? Honestly, I didn't think about that. And I know Tanya and I and Sayaka and Alex, all of us were saying like, we didn't really think about any of this when we were making this decision.

We're like, we feel kind of ignorant. But to your point about the bias towards the likelihood of a woman becoming a mother, I did read a little bit of research that suggested that there might actually be like a positive bias toward the women who changed their last name, particularly coming from women managers, because they think, oh, if my employee, who's a woman, changes her last name, that must have been a hard decision, and so I want to promote her more. Wow.

Yeah. Wow, that's a lot of thought being given to someone's very personal decision. It felt like a stretch, but I was like, that is interesting that I think maybe depending on where you stand on the decision, it could go either way. Although I do think about, was it Tanya who made the spreadsheet to change her name? Yes.

Right? Like it does take, like I said, I really didn't consider changing my name except for like one moment when I was filing the marriage certificate. And I remember that the woman was like, here's the list of things you have to do if you're going to change your name. And it was like double sided, single spaced. And I was like, well, if I was at all on the fence, that would have changed my mind because that is a lot of freaking work. I get the research logic, which is like, it takes organization, it takes being proactive. It takes managing all of these different people who have opinions about it. And it takes some presence to maintain your personal brand despite the name change.

I think about Sarah Green Carmichael. I'm like, she handled that so well. I already thought of her as a productive, smart, capable person. But yeah, it gives her a little bit more of that to think about how she handled it. Yeah. Amy, you're a manager. Nicole, are you a manager? Do you manage? Yes, she is a manager. Okay, well, then I can direct this question to both of you. If any of your employees who are women change their last name or don't, do you have like a reaction or do you look at them differently for whatever decision? Okay. I just have to say, all I think is,

please let me remember her name. I hope it's an outlook. Right? Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I don't give it a second thought. It just seems like a very personal decision. What about you, Nicole? Yeah, I don't think you could have a reaction or judge one of your employees' decisions in that way. I mean, you could silently. Let's be fair. Yeah, I know. You both are good managers, so you won't. But I'm just saying you could have a moment of like, ugh. Oh, and let's face it it people are judging you all the time oh yeah but but but how can you possibly know what motivates someone right to change her name or

not yeah there are very strong good reasons for a woman to want to be rid of her family name. And I think, again, to judge someone for changing their name without knowing their rationale, their circumstances, which as a manager, you're not going to know all of that. So, I mean, I agree. It's best not to judge. Yeah.

But I also can't help thinking, so Amy G, when you said, you know, is this something you've ever worried about what a name change might signal? I'd never worried about it until you said that. Glad to put that thought in your head. Yeah, no, I know.

Like, I can just imagine the conversation I would have with my co-workers and my boss. I think I personally would feel like I would have to really go out and explain my decision why I changed my name. But why, Nicole? Why do you have to explain it? What's wrong with just saying I got married and now my name is Nicole Jones? What's wrong with that? I think there'd be a lot of questions about like, oh, I thought your generation, like your age, you all aren't changing your names anymore. Well, we have research that says otherwise, don't we? So true. So true. But the Pew study that you're talking about, like there

are some things that you can identify women as more likely or not to change their name. And it's like really associated with your political leanings, where you live, I think, and your, what were some of the other ones? Education. Yeah, your education levels. And so I think there are associations with that that might be even subconscious in people's minds when they hear you're changing your name. But specifically to what you said, Amy G, like, it could be a signal that you're starting a family. And there are all kinds of barriers that then get put up. So yeah, I think it would worry me a little bit. And she thanks you for that.

Yes, thank you. Glad to help keep you up at night. Yeah. But I do wonder on the career front, not to change the direction of the combo, I feel like maybe it makes more of a difference changing your name when you're thinking about a career where people know your name versus where you might be applying to jobs or changing industries or something. Like I think there are situations where a new name, you might think of that as like helping your brand. Like a negative way to look at it is, I was reading articles about women who change their names because like there's a lot of name

discrimination out there and they find it easier to apply to certain jobs if they have white sounding names right yeah it's and it's interesting i learned from the conversation that hannah had um who was it who was like had just learned that in japan there are like there's a law that you have to take sayaka yeah yeah both spouses have to have the same last name or a same name, and they can go either direction. There are a lot of countries, too, where there are laws on the books where you cannot change your name after marriage. So it's a very cultural and geographic thing as well. In Italy, women don't change their names.

In China, women don't change their names. So it is very cultural. It's kind of interesting to think about how, I don't know, these conversations might be different depending on where you are. I'd also love to know in Japan, what percentage of people end up going with the woman's last name versus the man's? Because in my head, I'm like, I bet they're defaulting to the man's last name. But I don't know. I haven't looked into that. Right. Well, I don't think my husband, I don't think it ever occurred to him to change his name.

Oh, no. To my last name. And it's surprising to me, actually, that we haven't gotten to a place where it's a question that gets asked more regularly. A friend who just got married recently, we talk a lot about work and careers, and she's very career-driven. And I asked if she was changing her name.

She was like, no. And she had told her now husband that she was not changing her name. But she said in the conversation, she said, but you're welcome to take my name if you'd like. And I thought that was really great. He didn't, but maybe he thought about it for a little bit. And we could have more conversations like that. I asked Danny, I was like, would you ever take my last name? But even when I ask it, like, it's kind of a joke because I know he never would. But he was like, absolutely not. I was like, well, why not? Because it's my name. And I'm like, exactly. Did he want you to take his name? He says he like doesn't really care, but I know he does a little bit. He's like, it'd be nice, but I get it. And like, I'm not heartbroken about it. So he may occasionally gets called Mr. Gallo and he loves it. Me too. But it is, it's, he loves it in that it seems funny, right? Like if I got called by his last name, no one would see it as funny.

Yeah. Yeah. Nicole, what are you getting out of this episode? What should we all be taking from this episode? You set us up to have this conversation. Tell us. Oh, God. I mean, I think I've really changed my thinking. I had always thought that I would not change my name, but I would really wonder why my peers, my close friends, would change their names. You know, I asked my

sister-in-law, like, why did you change your name? And I've just learned a lot more about, like, there are so many reasons why people change their names and they're all so valid. Yeah. I'm sort of, I'm taking away, you do you. Yeah. Just do it thoughtfully and carefully. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo.

And I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Hannah Bates, popping back in to say that I learned the percentage of married couples in Japan who take the man's last name. It's 95%, according to Stanford's Asia Pacific Research Center. So, in case you were wondering, because I was. HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts. Or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Rob and Maure compose the scene music.

Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatworkathbr.org. Bye. Bye.