Women at Work - So Many Feelings

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

There’s often pressure to keep it together at work. But is that even possible right now when we’re all feeling so many intense feelings? Understanding when and how to express fear, anger, sorrow, and stress isn’t easy, but it’s crucial. Guests: Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy. Our theme music is Matt Hill’s “City In Motion,” provided by Audio Network.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. Amy G, here we are in the middle of week six of working from home with no end in sight. How are you keeping it together? You know, this week feels okay. I feel like a little bit like I am accepting this as a new reality, which doesn't feel great. But I feel like a lot of the really raw emotional response I was having has sort of evened out, which is nice. And I also have been noticing that the emotional containment that I normally have to do when I'm going through something hard and the people around me aren't, isn't there. I'm allowed to have my emotions a little bit more on the surface right now because we're all going through a hard time. And that means I have to do less managing, less hiding of

my sadness or my anger or my frustration or my despair, which feels like a relief in a way. Like, you know, when someone asks me, how are you doing? It's perfectly acceptable right now, I think, for me to say I'm having a really bad day. Totally. But the other thing is I find sometimes when people I'm close to, either at work or my friends and family, that when they're suffering, when they're feeling rotten, I feel rotten. There's a contagion to it. For sure. And I mean, you need to maintain some distance to be a good friend, a good sister, a good spouse. You can't fall apart when other

people fall apart. Yeah. Someone has to keep it together. Yeah. And it's sort of a hot potato we sort of pass around at the moment of who's allowed to really lose it, which is fair and understandable. And it's what compassion looks like today. Yeah, that's right. I'll hold the hot potato for five minutes. Yeah. And then I'll take it. Right. Right. Oh man, that's what we're doing for each other. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. And as you can already tell, we are feeling our feelings. In this episode, we're going to talk about how to do that in a professional way. It's something Liz Fosling and Molly West Duffy have been thinking about and doing research on throughout their careers. I know Molly and I both had experiences early in our careers where we entered the workforce and we just thought as young women, we just needed to be cool and calm and collected 24-7.

And so we were operating in this world where we just thought that we were the only ones feeling anxiety or stress or crying in the bathroom. And sometimes when you share that with people, it has a really profound impact on them just to realize that you're not alone. And I think when a leader does that, that has an even bigger impact. Liz is now the head of content at Humu, a company that makes professional development software. Molly is the head of organizational development at Rally, a communications firm. Their book is No Hard Feelings, The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work. Liz and Molly spoke to us in mid-March, right before most of us started working from home because of the pandemic. So in this conversation with them, we won't be getting into the new normal feelings we're having

about living and working in isolation amidst so much uncertainty. But we will get into our new normal feelings later in the show with Maureen Hoke, our supervising editor. Liz and Molly have a lot of practical advice on managing emotions in general, and particularly as a woman. Their outlook has helped us work through our emotions lately, and we hope it helps you too. Liz and Molly, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Molly, I want to start with a big picture question. Why, as women, should we care about expressing our emotions effectively at work? So as women, we should care because we have emotions, whether we think we're expressing them or not, and they will come out whether we're aware of them coming out or not.

So if we are frustrated, even if we don't verbalize that frustration, it will come out in other ways. If we're angry, if we're sad, we're excited. And as women, we actually get looked at longer and harder than men do for how we express that emotion. So women are traditionally more likely to be labeled as overly emotional or a live wire. And so women have to think longer and harder about when to express or not express emotions at work. Does that go, Molly, for all kinds of emotions? Is it positive emotions as well as negative ones? Yeah, on both sides. So with positive emotions, of course, we view those

as there could never be any issue with that. But if you are somebody who gets, you know, way too excited, sort of unprofessionally excited about something or over shares about good things that maybe are in your personal lives, that can be a liability at work. And then on the other side of the spectrum, things like frustration and anger are also viewed sometimes as inappropriate, especially in the way that they come out for women. And we can talk more about this because they think they don't always come out in the way that we expect for women and they don't always come out in the same way for women as for men. As you're describing this, it occurs to me that this feels like a bit of a minefield for women. And I'm curious, what advice do you have for our listeners who are trying, instead of being overly worried about this, what mindset should we go into thinking about expressing our emotions at work with? Yeah, it's a great question. So I think

the most important thing is to be self-aware, to know what emotion you're having before expressing it. So oftentimes when we're first experiencing an emotion, we don't is having issues? And being able to articulate the nuances of that. But the other thing I'd say is overall, I think generally we are scared of being overly emotional. And so we swing more towards the side of not displaying enough emotion. And I think, of course, there's exceptions to this rule, but I think we've been taught for so long that we shouldn't express emotions as women. And we lose out on the authenticity and the candor and the vulnerability that can come out of sharing emotions, which can actually have really positive effects on our teams and organizations. So Liz, it's important to share some, but where's the line between sharing and

oversharing? Yeah, great question. So we get this question a lot and often from women. In our book, we define the line as selective vulnerability. So that is being able to share what you're feeling while still prioritizing the safety, psychological safety of your team. So a quick example of how someone might do that is let's say that there's been a round of layoffs at a firm. A manager who's practicing selective vulnerability will come in and say something like, you know, this is affecting me, it's affecting all of us, and this is a really stressful time. So by doing that, they're acknowledging the emotion in the room and they're sharing a little bit about what they're feeling without going into too much detail. And then they'll provide some kind of path forward,

and this is about preserving psychological safety. So they might say, here are the steps I'm taking to make sure this doesn't happen again, and here's what I need from you. And the goal is that, again, six months from now, we'll be in a much better place. That example you gave makes it sound like you almost want to share with a purpose. So you're not just sharing sort of willy-nilly, here's how I feel, that it's uncontained, but that there's a purpose in doing so. Does that sound right? Yeah. I mean, it's more about preserving relationships and giving people the information they need to do their job effectively, but also to connect with you on a personal level. So lots of research, again, shows that when we feel our managers care about us personally, we perform

better, we're actually kinder to others, so it kicks off this virtuous cycle. So I think it's just about really preserving humanity at work. And one of the tips that we give in our book that I've used myself and shared with a lot of people is really putting yourself in the other person's shoes. So if you're ever wondering, should I share this? Is it oversharing? Is it too much? Really think if this person, if the rules were reversed and they came to me and they said this, would it A, would it just help me get a better understanding of the situation and maybe learn more about them? Or B, would it burden me and would it kind of unsettle me? And if it's B, then maybe don't say anything.

You can always go to bed and share tomorrow. So Liz, you know, let's say we feel ourselves just getting really angry or really upset about something. Any thoughts about how we can calm ourselves down? Just take a break so that you can acknowledge what you're feeling. We really hate the advice, never go to bed angry. Just go to bed. Sometimes you're angry because you're tired or you haven't slept and it's just good to take that break. So take the break and then really look internally. And so one question to ask yourself is, are you making any assumptions?

So we tend to have strong reactions to situations and your feelings in those situations are extremely valid, but they might be based on facts that aren't necessarily true. So assumptions that you've made. And the example that I give is a few years ago, I was on a team and we hired this new person, a man to come in. And I noticed

really quickly that every time I asked him a question, when he would answer, he would start speaking incredibly slowly and over-enunciate every word. And I hated his guts. I was so angry. I was just seething with frustration. I mean, this went on for weeks. Like I just was, I could barely contain it. You know, I was going to bed angry, but I was still waking up angry. And then our team went out for dinner a few weeks later and he and I actually had this amazing conversation. And so I just decided to ask without any malice, hey, do you notice that when I ask you a question, you slow down when you respond? And his response was, I know it's something I'm working on,

but I'm just afraid to look dumb in front of you. And so it was the total, I know, every time I tell this story, it's like, aw. And he and I are still good friends, but it's the total opposite of what I had thought. And I just never bothered to question that assumption. I just had this fact, which was that he spoke slowly. And then I layered on an assumption, which was that he spoke slowly. And then I layered on an assumption, which was he thinks I'm stupid. And then I layered on judgment, which was he's sexist. And then it turned into this horrible situation that could have been avoided by a

conversation. And again, you can't always assume good intentions. Like there will be times when that it's not this magical story where everyone was, oh, at the end, but it's good to at least start there and then question what you've thought. Right. So Molly, you mentioned putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Liz just talked about asking yourself, what assumptions might you be making? What other questions should we be asking ourselves before we act on our emotions. So Liz mentioned thinking about intentions. And I think another thing to ask yourself is, what is my goal of acting on this emotion or sharing this emotion? What's the ideal outcome of this? Because sometimes our goal is, I just want this person to know how angry or frustrated I am. And that may make you feel better immediately, but if there's not going to be a change to their behavior or a goal that you're trying to get to, that may not be the best way to move forward.

So an example I'll give is we do lots of work with companies and workshops, and I had a conversation with a woman who was an executive assistant to someone in the C-suite at this company. And she was really frustrated by how often he came to her and he raised his voice at her and he sort of spoke to her in a really angry or demanding tone. And she sat on him for a while and she realized that she didn't think that he had awareness of how this was coming across. And she didn't think that he had awareness of how this was affecting her own emotions. And so she said to him one day, when you yell at me, when you raise your voice at me, I shut down. So I'm not going to get angry back at you, but I'm going to shut down and I'm not going to be able to do the best work that I can because I'm thinking about you yelling at me. And his response, you know, oh my God, you know, I didn't,

you know, that's not what I mean. And he sort of got defensive, but then she continued. She said, the reason I'm bringing this up is that I hope that you can have more awareness of how that's affecting me. And so you can modulate your tone when you're speaking to me so that I can do better work for you. So when the goal was, they were aligned on the goal, which was her being able to do better work. And she had a specific ask for him that wasn't just, this is making me really upset. Right. What does the future hold for business? This is making me really upset. ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work.

That's netsuite. com slash women at work. Hey, listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I want to talk about crying at work.

Molly, is it as bad as some of us think to cry at work? It is definitely something that we feel ashamed of. We blame ourselves. We feel like it's not professional. But most people have cried at work at some point in their career, whether it's in public or in private. And the thing about crying is it's a human reaction. It is, I'm having an intense emotion right now, and it's bubbling over to the point where I can't share it verbally and calmly and it's just coming out. And so what you should do in the moment with crying is to excuse yourself and say, I'm having strong emotions. I need to step outside and go to the bathroom, go wherever

you need to to calm down because once those nerves have activated, it's really hard to stop crying in a meeting. And then reflect on why it is that you were crying. So is this a one-time frustration or is this a more underlying issue about you're really frustrated at work, you want to quit, or your boss consistently makes you feel undervalued? And to say, okay, is the underlying issue something that I can deal with so that it doesn't keep happening where it comes out in tears and try to work on that underlying issue. And what's interesting for women in crying is that oftentimes our anger comes out in the form of tears. So when men get really angry, they yell. And women tend to cry or get in a way where they don't want to yell, but they aren't really communicating well. And I think it's really helpful to think about that because I think when we see someone crying, we think, oh, they're sad. But oftentimes it's, oh, they're angry. And that's a really different

emotion to deal with. The other thing that can come out in tears is just that you care. I think if we can all have a better understanding of the deeper underlying emotions behind tears, we won't feel like we're walking on eggshells around them as much. Yeah. I imagine we have listeners who are hearing this and saying to themselves, like, I work in a place where it's just not okay to express emotion. I'm curious, do you find that in your work that there are cultures or industries where it's far less acceptable to do some of what you're advising to do? Yes. So my background is in economics and I come from sort of a consulting investment bank world.

I think there's absolutely differences in emotional culture across organizations. And so one of the pieces of advice that we give is if you're not comfortable speaking about emotions, then again, go back to what is the need or what is your goal and can you frame it around that? So as an example, a few years ago, I was leading a team on a design project and we were facing a looming deadline. It was incredibly stressful. And I realized one day I was just so irritated with everyone around me. And I went for a walk around the block. And when I thought about it, it wasn't that they had all suddenly morphed

into these super annoying colleagues. They were the same people they always were. I was just so stressed about meeting this deadline. And it was honestly an environment where I didn't necessarily feel like I could go back to the team and be like, I'm so stressed about the deadline. So what I did is I thought about how to articulate that need, which was I just needed to know that we would meet it and that all the work that needed to get done would get done. So what I did was go back into the meeting and say to everyone, hey, we have this deadline. I would just like to walk through the plan for meeting it again and see if there's anything non-essential that we can cut just to make sure we deliver something

great that's a high quality bar so that we're not rushing. Are there any meetings in the next few days that we could actually cancel to give ourselves more heads down time to finish this project? And after we had had that discussion, we did end up canceling a few meetings. We did cut some non-essentials. I just felt so much better and I wasn't irritated with anyone anymore. And again, it was the conversation I had never brought up emotions. It had always been about what is the goal? What are we trying to achieve, and how can we make that happen.

Right, but the thought process was how do I get my emotional needs met? Yes. Right? Yeah. So it was still about emotions even though you weren't expressing them. Yeah, definitely. We have an assessment on our website. It's your emotional expression tendency.

And you can see whether you are an over-emoter or an under-emoter. And I think having that self-knowledge is really important. So over-emoters are the people who are going to say what's on their mind. You're going to know exactly how they're feeling. And you go to those people when you want someone to get excited about what you're doing or you want someone to empathize or like really get into it with you. And the flip side of that is those people are going to tend to share more without thinking through why they're sharing or whether it's appropriate to share and maybe seen as a little bit more unstable. And the other side, an under-emoter is somebody who is not

going to share either good or bad news or emotions as easily and so people come to them when they need to talk through something calmly to know that the person isn't going to overreact but again the flip side is much harder for your colleagues to know what's going on yeah i took that assessment on your site and I got even a motor, which I felt like was like an A plus. But maybe not. I didn't know what the other options were. Even a motors are people who have tendencies on both sides of the spectrum. And so the opportunity there is to identify which situations at work you tend to over emote or-emote and try to be more aware of those.

So it doesn't mean I'm perfect. You're close, Amy. I'm sure you are, yes. Can I ask a tactical question? Sure. Okay, Liz, let me direct this to you. Let's say you don't have the self-awareness or, for whatever reason, you just explode? What do you do? Yeah, great question. So I think one thing is not to make it worse. So once you've had this moment, just say,

I just had a really strong reaction and I just need some time to process it. And so I think acknowledging that you realize that you maybe had a moment of overexpression, if I'll put it that way, is really important to show that you do have self-awareness. And then it's about following up. Give yourself the time and the space to let your emotions settle a little bit and then come back to the situation and really think through, well, what was it that happened that caused me to have this outburst? Was it something that's been going on a long time? So a great question to ask yourself there is, which of my boundaries have been violated? And was it someone else violating them? Or was it also a little bit on me? So I notice that I tend to get really stressed out

and much more likely to have an outburst when I've totally over-socialized myself or over-committed myself. So I'm an introvert. So is Molly. We write about this a lot in the book. And I have struggled with this in the past where the workplace is built for extroverts. And so it's easy to just say yes to the happy hours, say yes to the dinners, say yes to the meetings. And then at the end of the week, you're so high strung and you haven't carved out time for yourself that that's when anything becomes like an emotional trigger. So in that case, so let's say you've had an outburst because it's just kind of been building up for a while. And let's say you do identify it's because you just don't have

enough time and space. Really what to do is to take that evening, sit down, reevaluate your calendar. What can you cut? What's non-essential? Do you just need to say no to a few more things? And then the last thing is really following up with that person. So I think we tend to underestimate how forgiving people will be. And obviously that this is like that your outburst was still within the realm of like, okay for the workplace. But I think just admitting that you had a moment, explaining what happened, maybe what caused it, but really taking ownership and just saying, I'm sorry, period. Not, I'm sorry that you felt like I had an outburst. That's bad. Just own it. And then the most important, the final part is just to say, here's what I'm doing to make sure this doesn't happen again. So again, the three parts of that I think are really just taking ownership, understanding what happened and why, saying I'm sorry, period. And then showing that you've had the foresight, that you've had the time and the space to think about what you can do differently going forward.

Right. What do you suggest we do if we're on the receiving end of an emotional outburst? Yeah. If you're on the receiving end, this is a really visual metaphor, but I think trying to put yourself in a bubble or another way that we've heard it is just don't ingest. So recognizing this person is having a strong reaction and, you know, you sort of feel it radiating off of them and there starts to be emotional contagion where their emotions are going to affect your emotions. And so as much as you can, sort of putting a bubble around yourself or saying, I recognize this emotion for what it is, and I'm not going to ingest in the moment. And I actually like sort of steal myself on the ground. I do sort of a power pose where I'm like, okay, I'm just going to ground myself. I'm here in the moment. And then after you're out of it, you can look at it and say,

how much was I complicit in that? So how much did my actions create that emotional outbreak, or was it just whatever was going on with that person? And if you are unclear about that, following up with the person when they have calmed down. And you can say, I know you had a really strong emotional reaction. I want to get clear about my role in that so that if there's anything that I could do differently to make sure that doesn't happen again, let me know. Or on the other hand, if it had nothing to do with me so that I can get clear on, you know, letting it go and moving on. What I like about that is you're not treating the person, you know, as a pariah for having had that emotional outburst because I think that's a tendency, especially if we feel hurt by it, to just avoid that person. And I think reengaging sometimes can be quite productive.

It's a hard thing to do because I think we all go into this is all my fault and that was a really tough thing to be a part of, to be witnessed to, you know, to be screamed at, to be yelled at. But it's you being the bigger person to go back and give them that chance to clarify. And it also just for me helps me sleep better. Otherwise, I go to worst case scenario of like, well, I caused that and now I can never speak to that person again. When that's really probably not fair to them and they had other things going on. We interviewed Kim Malone Scott for the book and she said as a boss, one of her employees came to her one day and said, I know kind of day I'm going to have by the look on your face when you walk in the door. And I think that's not super fair to the leaders. You know, we're all going to have bad days. But what it does mean is that as leaders, we can get better at saying, you know what? I had a really

bad morning. There was traffic. I had, you know, dealing with my kids at home. I'm in a bad mood. It has nothing to do with you. So the more we can distinguish what's causing the emotions for others, the better. And that's a good point about leaders. We should talk a little bit about leader and selective vulnerability. But as you mentioned at the beginning, women are watched more carefully around emotions. And I think leaders are too, so there's more imperative. Does that mean that you as a leader need to be more selectively vulnerable than we've been talking about? How does it differ when you're a boss? If you're a leader, you do need to be more careful about practicing selective vulnerability because you, to a certain extent, set the emotional and cultural

tone for the team. And so I think as a leader, just really thinking through what are you putting in your emails, like that also is a place where it's important to think through what emotional impact it might have. So in the book, we give the example of if you're a leader and you're just sending off emails really quickly because you're trying to be efficient, if you send in response to an email, let's chat, period, the effect on the recipient is so different than if you send, hey, great edits, let's find a time to talk through some of the changes I want to make tomorrow afternoon. Super different. And that's, again, because people are just looking into every word that you're saying. And so when it comes to emotional expression, again, if you walk

in the door in the morning and let's say you've been sitting in traffic for a long time or you had a fight with your partner or you're just not feeling that well that day, if you don't flag that for people and just say like, hey, I'm having a bad morning, it has nothing to do with you, they're going to spend the entire rest of the day worrying and feeling anxious. And then research shows that has a pretty dramatic impact on their productivity, how they treat the people around them. So because you're just more under the spotlight as a leader, it is really important that you think more carefully about your interactions and what you're expressing.

And that's not only in your words, but also in your body language, your tone, and if you're writing an email. Do you have any thoughts on how, you know, if you're a manager and someone on your team is going through something deeply upsetting and, you know, maybe it's last quite a long time, any thoughts on how to be a good manager in that situation? It happens a lot for managers. Someone comes to you in tears. And I think if you're just a colleague and that happens to you, you say, hey, I'm going to give you a shoulder to cry on or I'm going to give you the space and then go back to work.

But if you're a leader, you actually need to think about the best next step for this person. So a couple of things. The first is just to listen and asking good questions and creating the space. The other thing is managing individually. So same person going through a death in the family may actually want really different things at work. Somebody may want to, you know, just dive right back into work and say, this is a distraction mechanism and I don't want you to treat me any differently. The other person may say, you know, I'm going to need more extended time off and a transition back in.

So sort of co-designing what that looks like and then avoiding telling people what to feel, you know, saying things like, you'll be fine or don't worry. Well, the person doesn't know that they're going to be fine yet and they can't stop worrying. So just creating space for them to have whatever emotions they're having, which are right for them. I want to go back to what we were talking about at the very beginning around women feeling like that they're scared of being over-emotional so that we sort of tend to fall on the side of not displaying enough. What if, as a woman, especially as a leader, what if you're not just not that emotional, at least outwardly? How do you handle that? Liz, maybe you can answer that one.

Yeah. So people do have very different emotional tendencies. And I would say at work, sometimes I lean towards being an under-em motor. And especially if you're a manager, I think, again, that can be just negatively interpreted. And so one thing is find moments when you feel comfortable sharing a little more. And it's going to feel strange at first. But I think one of the first easiest ways to do that is to lean into excitement. So if your team meets a milestone or someone, you know, one of your reports does something really well, leaning into being a little more open about that you're thrilled for them, you know, and not overdoing it, but pushing yourself

a bit past your normal boundaries. And then I would also just find moments to share personal stories. So there's a lot of research that shows when a leader shares a personal story, that does a lot to strengthen the relationships between them and their reports. And again, make sure it's work appropriate and is not something that could be seen as you undermining your ability to lead. But it's really about pinpointing moments in which you can push yourself out a little more. You might be more comfortable doing that in one-on-ones where it's not in a team meeting, but allowing people to see a little more of your human side to get to know your personality

is usually a good thing, especially if you're aware that you tend to be an under-motor. Hmm. I did want to ask about the bias toward women around emotions and in particular how a woman might respond if she gets accused of being overly emotional. Yeah. So you get accused of being overly emotional. I think one is to take a step back and say, who is this coming from? Is this a credible source? Is this somebody who I respect how they show emotions? So if it's coming from somebody who never shows any emotion at all and doesn't have respect from the organization, you know, maybe dismiss it. But if it's somebody who you sort of

view as an emotional expression role model, then maybe you should take it to heart. And as the case with any feedback, the next question is, can you give me some examples? Can you help give me some specifics? Because it's really hard to act on general feedback. So you could say to the person, I hear that. I want to act on that. Can you help me identify some times when that's happened in the past and help me identify some moments for improvement in the future? And same thing with being under-remoting or less emotional is to get more specific. So I'll give an example of that. I am somebody who, again, I mentioned I'm an under-remoter and I'm somebody who tends to warm up to new people

slowly. And so I got feedback that when I was meeting new clients that I was coming across as too business-focused, too professional, and not warm enough. And I said, great, you know, give me some specific examples of when and which clients that's happened with. And then I announced it to my team. So I said, I've gotten this feedback and this is something I'm specifically working on during this client engagement. So when the very first meeting I was walking with my team into the client office, one of my colleagues said, okay, remember you're going to be overly warm and emotional. You know, maybe you're going to like come up with a fun fact to share. Maybe you're going to go in with a big smile on your face. Like, let's brainstorm some things that you can do going in. And, you know, I slowly got better at it. So I do think there's some validity in that feedback, as long as it's specific and you agree with where it's coming from.

So it sounds as if we shouldn't be looking for an absolute, you know, sort of balance between being hyper-emotional and being under-emotional or, you know, unemotional, that it's very context-dependent. Absolutely. I think it's hugely context-dependent, and that's why the specifics can really help because it's hard to be self-reflective of like, well, you know, for me, most of the time I'm calm and I'm collected and that's a good thing when I'm leading teams. But then there are scenarios where that is not helpful and I'm too cold and I need to be warmer. And so I'm going to work specifically on that without saying I need to change my entire personality or I need to be exactly like someone else's style. Like you have to figure out your own style and how to make that work. And then I think the other variable at play here is that our expectations are changing

of how much emotion men and women should share. So we live in a society that is now wanting people to be more vulnerable and authentic. The lines between work and life have blurred quite a bit. And the people who can't make that transition often struggle. And I think so for men and women to understand that this is a dynamic thing and this is going to be changing as we live our lives and as our leadership progresses and that we may need to change the way that we express emotion or how comfortable we are with that. Yeah. Molly and Liz, I'm so glad you were able to join us today. Thank you.

Thanks so much for having us. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. We've got Maureen Hoke with us today. She's the editor of HBR.org and the supervising editor for this show. And she manages a pretty big team here at HBR.

And she's someone who I talk to about feelings quite a bit. So this feels apropos to have her join us. Thanks for being here, Maureen. I'm really glad to be here with you guys. And yes, I share feelings with both of you very often. So we're a good group to talk about this. Yeah. I was thinking leading into this conversation that it's both appropriate and ironic that we're talking about feelings because it seems like that's all I talk about these days. I feel that way a lot. And I was feeling that way this morning when I was on yet another conference call. And I really thought about how important it was to share at least some of what's

going on personally with me, you know, just sort of stuff that's scaring me or what's keeping me up at night, but I didn't want to go too far. And I really thought about the conversation we'd had. You know, that concept of selective vulnerability feels so vivid right now. Even that simple, someone says how you're doing, you know, I have this mental calculation of like, how honest am I? Do I tell them how I'm doing right now or how you're doing, you know, I have this mental calculation of like, how honest am I? Do I tell them how I'm doing right now or how I was doing this morning or how I was doing last night? Are you all having that same struggle? I mean, absolutely. People want to be led at this moment, right? They don't necessarily want to see you crumbling under the stress. But at the other side of that,

you want to seem like a human being and somebody who is dealing with their own uncertainties and pressures right now. So I really am struggling with how much to show about my own feelings. Yeah. I'm actually finding a little bit harder to manage my emotions in this remote environment. You know, like I had a moment yesterday afternoon where I had been sort of going on conference call after conference call. And then I was on a call and like audio kept dropping out and all these things kept happening. And I could just feel my frustration kind of rising and rising. And you're just in that moment.

Usually if I'm with people in the room, I modulate better. I'm struggling with that in this remote environment in a way that's new. Yeah, I find that too. I also find that because we're working from home, I can't walk away. I cannot physically get away from work. And that's intensifying a lot of the emotions I can usually keep under control. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's a skill we're going to all be working on right now. And it's a skill, we didn't talk directly with Molly and Liz about it, but I think that's a piece of selective vulnerability. Yeah. Is putting the emotions aside when you need to put them aside and really focus on inspiring your team, getting the work done. Yeah, well, this is definitely a test to focus this period. And I think you're absolutely right about the ability to put things aside

becoming much more important. I wonder how you all deal with that compartmentalizing, though, when you are frustrated, because this is something I have struggled with both as an individual contributor and as a manager that, you know, sometimes you do get frustrated at work or if you're like you're trying to communicate with someone and it's the conversation's not going well or you're misinterpreting things between the two of you. I mean, once I was in a meeting, this was years ago, and I got very frustrated by the meeting and sort of I left in a bit of a huff, which was not the most professional thing to do. And, you know, I got feedback that I need to work on letting my frustration show. And fair enough. But sometimes you do get frustrated. It's hard to always keep

that under the surface. So how do you two handle that? Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things I think about in a situation like that, which is one, I really try to focus on empathy, specifically if it's with another person. I have lots of tricks of like trying to imagine that person as a baby. Wow. I dig deep sometimes, right? Like try to imagine that what is it they truly want from this conversation? You know, what else might be going on in their lives? So it sort of tempers that annoyance a little bit. But the other thing I think about, and I think to your

point, Maureen, is that when I see someone trying to pretend they're not frustrated when they are, it's almost worse than seeing them frustrated. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I also think that, you know, depending on the cause of your frustration, you might be doing everyone a favor to vent it a little bit. So for example, you're in a meeting and someone is monopolizing the conversation. That might be a moment to gently let it be known that that's not cool. Right. Yep.

And I also think I'm a big fan, I think Molly and Liz alluded to this too, of coming back. If you've done something you're not proud of, you've expressed frustration, you've gotten angry, is to come back and say, you know what, I was frustrated in that meeting,

here's why. When you're more calm, when you can actually express it in a more rational way. Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. One thing I do when I feel myself boiling over is I've learned to recognize that that's happening, and that's when I know to walk away. If I can't get away physically, just walk away emotionally and revisit later. Yeah. It's probably worth noting though, that doing all of that, that we're discussing right now takes a lot of effort. It's sort of exhausting. It is exhausting, but I do think that when you become a manager or you assume leadership,

that is one of the responsibilities is that you have to be willing to do the emotional labor. Right. Yeah, I agree with that. You have to be willing to think about how you're going to manage that. And some days it is exhausting. It is. Or even in a situation like this, it feels exhausting because you're taking care of your family. And if there are people at work, if you're a manager, or just if you have coworkers that you're trying to support, there's a lot of caretaking going on. And if you're also trying to manage your emotions through that, it's really hard. But I do think that's part of the job of a manager. At the same time, I've had to learn not to beat myself up when I have had emotions get the best of me or I've said the wrong thing that provoked an emotional reaction in someone else, those are things that you have to learn through experience.

And I think, I mean, I know in the interview you guys talked about crying at work. HBR has written about that quite a bit over the years. And honestly, I still have mixed feelings about it. You know, I can say I want to be supportive of someone who cries. Like if they are overcome with emotion, I think I'm a good supportive person in that situation. But when it comes to me and like if I'm with my peers or people who are sort of the senior management, I'm telling you I'm doing everything I can not to cry still. It's complicated. And why is that?

Are you afraid people are judging you? Yeah, I definitely feel, too, as a woman, it's like it just makes it seem like you can't handle it. It's showing a level of vulnerability that I still am not comfortable with. Yeah, I also think there's more to it to me than vulnerability, though. I think if you are not a crier and you are provoked to tears by something, it also expresses rage and it expresses this kind of frustration that you need to pay attention to. So rather than focus on the vulnerability, it's like, what set you off?

And deal with that thing. Because if you focus on the vulnerability piece, you're going to end up apologizing or trying to sweep it under the rug. And that's not important. What's important is what got you to that place. Yeah. Like focus on the content, not the reaction. Yeah. And the other thing is that when women cry, I think that sometimes, particularly guys, but not just guys, use that as an excuse to dismiss whatever the circumstance that led to the tears was. And you cannot let that happen. Yeah.

I've heard the advice. We have an author who works with us, Ann Kramer, and I've heard her give the advice that you, if possible, you should narrate why you're crying. Because the people just assume when they see someone cry that you're sad, and they're confused. Why are you sad about this project plan or whatever it is? Sad.

Yeah. But if you can say, well, actually, I'm really frustrated right now, which is why you're seeing this emotional reaction, or I'm really angry. It helps other people interpret what kind of emotion you're having rather than just assuming you're sad or upset. That's good advice. And I've managed people who just weren't big emoters. And it is something that you need to coach people on a bit because even if they're not people who naturally show a lot of emotions, they need to be able to verbalize the things that they're thinking, what they're feeling, maybe over communicate in certain situations about how they think things are going. Just as a way that in the absence of emotion, positive or negative, you're getting some feedback from them.

Yeah. But I don't know if either of you have had to do that, like talking to someone who doesn't show much emotion. You know, I've managed people who are hard to read and I've had to force myself to see that in a way that's empathetic because it feels cagey to me. But, you know, following the Amy Gallo lead,

I think empathy is the right approach because people don't show emotions for as many reasons as there are people. Well, and sometimes they think they're showing emotion and they're not. That's the other thing. The disconnect between what people intend and what you're seeing is sometimes really strong. Yeah, and I want to pick up on that point because that's really important. Some people think that when they show a little emotion that they're really showing emotional end of the spectrum and the not very emotional end of the spectrum. I've tried to help them see how their expression comes off. Are you aware that when your facial expression is set in a frown, people think you're disapproving of what they're saying. Right. That sort of thing. So just start with the specific and don't impute emotion.

Yeah, I think that's right. The problem is I think most managers don't make the effort to be as specific as you just were, Amy B. And so sometimes people are getting this vague, you don't smile enough or you're overly emotional. And I think one of the best pieces of advice I heard given to a room full of women about this is that when you get feedback that compares you in some way, you're not emotional enough, you're over emotional, is that you say, compare to whom? What's the standard by which you're measuring me? And particularly, like, if you're too angry, right? Well, compared to whom? Because I think that helps people see that the bias is sometimes there,

that, oh, I'm saying she's overly emotional compared to, you know, my expectation for what a leader looks like. And then ask for those specifics. So if they're not thoughtful the way you just were, Amy B., you could say, can you give me an example of when my facial expressions or my tone of voice was interpreted in a way that wasn't productive? And I also think what often happens is that the feedback doesn't align with what you yourself are feeling. And I mean, how many times have I been told I don't smile enough? And that's minor. No one has said you seem angry, but if someone told me that I seemed angry and I

wasn't angry, it would make me wonder, what am I doing that makes people think I'm angry? And that's when asking you for more specific feedback can be helpful. But I also think as a manager, you have to be very careful about how you give that kind of feedback. For sure. How much of what you're saying is you interpreting cues that may not even be intended the way you're interpreting? Yeah. I have to say this is something that I've thought about with myself and my personal presence because I think I have what I would call resting grumpy face. It's like, it's a cross between disapproving and maybe bored, and it's just not what I want to present to other people. So I have worked on like, how do I have a, this is going to sound wild, but sometimes how do I have a more neutral to pleasant,

you know, look on my face when I'm listening or taking part in a meeting or something? Well, for what it's worth, Maureen, I've spent a lot of time in meetings with you, and I have not noticed that. That's great news. Maureen, thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure to be here, Amy's. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hogue, Adam Buchholz, Mary

Dew, Tina Tobey-Mack, Erica Truxler, and Rob Eckhart. We're working on two upcoming episodes that we'd like your input on. The first is an advice episode with Dear HBR's Alison Beard, and we'd like to answer as many of your questions as possible. They can be about COVID or not. The second upcoming episode is about career setbacks, and we want to hear how this crisis has affected your professional development and career advancement. Has it helped you? Has it hurt you? So write to us about either of those things. Our email address is womenatworkathbr.org. We'll read every email that comes into the inbox and we'll let you know if we plan to bring up your questions or experience in an episode. In the meantime, thanks so much for spending time with us.