Women at Work - So You’re Thinking About Quitting Your Job…

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

How can you be confident that quitting your job is a good move for your career? And how do you handle the feelings — guilt, fear, anxiety — that come up? These are questions we’ll all face at some point, so we talk through which factors to consider before making the decision and best practices for giving your notice when it’s time.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at Work. Amy G, so we happen to be talking in the midst of the great resignation of 2021. A lot of people this year have quit their jobs or are thinking about quitting their jobs. And this idea of whether or not to quit a job and how to quit your job are questions that nearly all of us will consider at some point during our careers. Yeah, I definitely thought this through for myself a few times. Yes. So you've been writing about this topic for years and recently you gathered together HBR's best advice and you wrote a guide. That's right. So let's go through the steps, how you do it. All right.

So the first step that people need to think about is whether or not they're really ready to quit and whether or not they want to quit. This is an important question. I mean, I think we've all had days, weeks, months where we have thought I am done with this job and we feel ready to move on, especially in the middle of what's happening right now, the great resignation, what some people are calling the big quit. It can be tempting to think that's the answer, but you really want to think through three questions. This is advice that comes from career coach Priscilla Clayman. And you want to think, one, am I working for the right organization? Am I in the right position?

And am I positioned or set up for the future career that I want? If the answer to any of those three questions is no, then you need to think through, okay, can I change that? And if not, will I be able to say yes to those three things if I move to a different job or if I've set myself up for a different type of career. These are sort of the first signals for you or the sort of first test, the litmus test of, is this the right decision? Am I really ready to leave my job? So if somebody is asking themselves, am I working for the right organization? Yep.

What kind of thought process would they be going through that would tell them whether or not this is an organization that they want to continue with or not? Yeah, I mean, that's going to be different things for different people, of course. You want an organization whose values are aligned with yours. So that's one question, right? Does this company operate in a way that's aligned with what I care most about? Is the company doing something that I think is important or that matters or that I can get behind? And then there's also lots of questions around how healthy the business is. Are profits down? Is the culture toxic? Are decisions being made that are irrational? Are people that you respect leaving the company to go do other things, right?

These are all things you want to consider when you're thinking, is this the right organization, the right place for me? Okay, that's really helpful. Now, next, am I in the right position? So, you know, again, are you doing something that you find enjoyable every day that's aligned with your values? And it doesn't mean you have to enjoy it every single day. I have had jobs that I loved that some days still felt like a slog. But, you know, is this the right role in that you can bring your best talents to bear, that you're being rewarded fairly for bringing those talents to bear? Or is there another position within the organization? Maybe you're in finance and you're really excited about what's actually happening in marketing.

Or maybe you're in a manager role and you actually don't enjoy the process of managing other people. Again, lots of factors that go into whether it's the right position, but is it aligned with what you find interesting, exciting, rewarding? Yeah, that's really good because I could imagine somebody going to a new organization and doing the same role and still having a dissatisfying work experience. Yes, exactly. And that's actually a really great question to ask yourself. Are the problems that I'm experiencing here, are they things that are likely to follow me elsewhere? It's not always easy to answer that question, but it's certainly something you want to consider. Okay. And so the last question, am I positioned for the future career that I want? So of course this necessitates that you have some sense of what you want to do in the future but even thinking about things like am I learning?

Am I given opportunities for development? Do I have a good reputation here? Am I respected? Do people reach out to me for my advice or my thoughts? And also, are you developing a network that's going to set you up for the job you want in the future? You may not stay in this particular job forever, but are you making connections that might be useful later on, which would be a reason to stay, even if it's not the job you're going to want in five, seven, ten years. Okay, yeah, that's really important to consider that I probably wouldn't have thought about in that way. In the past, when I've thought about quitting jobs, the advice that I get from everyone is that you need to have a job to get a job.

So don't quit your current job before you have another job lined up. I've always been kind of iffy about that, but I want to know what you think about it. Why have you been iffy about it? Because sometimes when you're in a job that makes you feel burnt out, you're like, well, I want a break. And it's hard to put your best foot forward if you are unhappy in a job. So if you are unhappy in a job, looking for a new job just sounds like torture. Yeah. Well, and also, I'm sure you've heard that looking for a job is a full-time job, right? So it's hard to look for a job when you're in a job that demands a ton of you.

You know, I think that advice is true in a tight job market. You know, if you leave without something lined up, you're not sure when your next opportunity is going to come along. And I think there also used to be the conventional wisdom that gaps on resumes reflected poorly on you as a candidate. Yeah. And I think in today's current environment, I think, one, we're much more forgiving of gaps, especially during the pandemic. People have had to leave jobs for all sorts of reasons. So I think people tend to be more forgiving of those gaps. And two, there are lots of jobs to be had right now.

So that's not to say if your finances are tight that you can leave your job without another one lined up and be sure you'll have one within a month or within two months or however long. So it's really a personal decision, I think, around your finances. Okay. So when you have decided that you're going to quit, who should you tell first? So, you know, as someone who has lots of friends at work, the idea that I would keep that secret from my friends before, you know, before telling my manager is just unrealistic. It's not true. Just not, just not true. Yeah. But the ideal way to do it is to tell

your boss first. You want your manager to be the first one to hear that news. You don't want to take the risk that your manager hears it from someone else. You want to be able to control the message you give to your manager because they also ideally will be a partner in helping you figure out your transition out. And they will be the best partner if they feel like you have gone to them with this news first. Yeah, that seems like a safe decision. I have had friends leave jobs before. And like I got the announcement email and been like, how could you not tell me before you told the boss?

Right, right. Yeah. Well, and it's funny sometimes, especially if you're close with someone and they don't tell you, but then things like they're like, I was sick today. And you're like, I don't think you were sick. You know, you start to get the sense. So there may be a little wink wink. We know what's going on, even though we're not discussing it. And we understand why.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. When you do have that conversation with your boss, what reason should you give them? Should you tell them the whole truth? I think you also have to consider that this person is likely to be a reference in the future. There may be a chance that you want to come back to work for this organization someday. And the world can be small. So you never know when that person's going to pop up into your life or in your network again. So I think you want to be honest, but you really want to look forward. Right.

So the reason is what are you leaving for? Not what are you leaving behind? Now, if the reason is not your manager and maybe there's some issues in the organization that you've talked about with your manager before, you can certainly share those. But, again, I think you really want to focus on here's why I'm leaving. I'm looking for a break. I'm looking for a new opportunity to do X, Y, and Z. I want to make a, here's why I'm leaving. I'm looking for a break. I'm looking for a new opportunity to do X, Y, and Z. I want to make a pivot in my career. You know, the positive things that have nothing to do with the organization that you're currently in. So what if the reason

that you're leaving is more money or a better position, maybe the promotion that you wanted at your current job or your previous job. Would you be totally honest about that information? Well, and ideally, you've already asked for the raise and the promotion that you want at your current organization. So I would be honest about that, because I think that's probably a conversation, again, hopefully you've been having with your boss about wanting to be paid more feeling like you're you're worth more feeling like you are ready for a different title position responsibilities I think that's totally fair I think if you do

make it about money you have to consider whether you want a counteroffer I would do some thinking ahead of time about whether you would be willing to accept that. Is this really purely about money? I don't think that's often the case. I think that's usually one of many factors for people. But if it genuinely is, think through what if they come back with that 20% raise? What if they match the salary? Would you be willing to stay? If you've had the conversation, you've asked for the raise, they if they match the salary? Would you be willing to stay? If you've had the conversation, you've asked for the raise, they've said no, you've gone through the effort of going out and getting another offer, and then they say yes, then you have to consider, well, do I want to work at a place where I have to get an outside offer to get a raise? I mean, there's many places where that's the culture.

That's the sort of unspoken rule. That's the only way you'll get a raise. And you have to consider whether you want to stay in a place like that. Does that make sense for you? And it may. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform.

With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor, Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts.

I know it's customary to give two weeks notice. For some reason in the past, that's always felt like too little to me. And I've always promised a little bit more time than that. Is two weeks the right amount of time or how much notice should we give? You know, I've been meaning to look into like the origin of the two weeks. Like where did that come from? It seems so arbitrary in some ways.

Yeah. And I have to say, it does feel short to me, both when I've left jobs and when I've had colleagues leave. I'm like, well, wait, you're gonna be gone in 10 working days? Like, how is that possible? So it is, I think, customary. And I think most people will accept if you give two weeks, they won't, you know, raise a stink. I do think especially if your job is intertwined with other people, with your colleagues, I would consider giving more. And I think you want to give enough that you can transition your responsibilities, maybe be around to train your replacement if that's a reasonable amount of time, but not so long that you feel like you're lingering. Sometimes the two weeks is customary because you need to start this other job. It may be that your new job is saying, hey, we need you to start as soon as possible.

I've actually had people come to me and say, my new job wants me, hey, we need you to start as soon as possible. I've actually had people come to me and say, my new job wants me to start within one week. Can I give one week's notice? And I typically advise against that just because I do think it puts your current employer in a tight position. I think it's the kind thing to do to give three, four weeks, sometimes even a couple months. Amy, does your advice change if you're a manager and you're leaving your job? I mean, I think the greater your responsibilities, the longer you want to give because it's going to be harder to extract yourself. I'm channeling Amy B here who often speaks from her experience as a manager. And I can't imagine

she wouldn't say you need more time to carefully transition those relationships to say goodbye, to set those people up for success in what might be a period of time where they don't have an active manager. Yeah. So say you are interviewing for a job and you expect that if you do get the job, you will have to leave abruptly. Do you think it's wise to begin sort of like training people while you're still working there or writing up your guide and doing that kind of work before you have actually gotten the next job? I mean, that would be an incredibly conscientious thing to do and very kind of you to spend your extra time. I'm sure you're stressed out interviewing for jobs and trying to think about what's next for you.

But I certainly think like making notes about who you would pass projects on to, maybe including some of those people in meetings so that they're up to speed. You just have to be careful if you're not being transparent with your boss or with your team that you're looking for a job that you don't send them signals that you're thinking about leaving. So in the past, I've gotten advice that you should basically always be interviewing or always be job searching, just to kind of see what jobs are out there, see what your value is. What are your thoughts, Amy, on interviewing at different places for similar or different jobs to try to come to the answers to those questions that you were asking earlier, whether or not I'm working for the right organization, or am I in the right position, or am I positioned for the future career that I want? Yeah, I've heard that advice too.

And truthfully, I just find the whole idea exhausting that you have to be like constantly looking for jobs, constantly interviewing, putting yourself out there. That's not to say I don't look at jobs on LinkedIn, that I'm not keeping tabs on organizations that I'm interested in. What are they up to? You do wanna have a sense of what's going on in the job organizations that I'm interested in. What are they up to? You do want to have a sense of what's going on in the job market that you're interested in.

The tricky part about that is that when you go on those interviews, you are going to see the best version of that organization. So you risk falling into the grass is greener club and you start seeing these shiny objects. You're comparing a first date to a marriage, basically, where you're seeing the best of the organization, ideally, in an interview process with an organization that you're currently in, where you're seeing all the good, bad, and ugly. You just have to keep in mind, if you choose to do that, if you have the energy to do it, keep in mind that you're not seeing the whole picture. I mean, one of the other things about always interviewing is you're updating your resume. You're working on cover letters.

You're in practice. So then if you do have to look for a job a little bit more suddenly than you expect, you're ready for it. So I don't think it's bad advice. It's just whether you actually have the energy, time, interest in doing that. Amy, this was such great advice. I think you're definitely going to make what is a very difficult decision a lot easier for people. I hope so.

Although all of this advice we've just talked through, we're giving it in a vacuum. We're not feeling all the emotions that often accompany this decision. Guilt and fear and anxiety and maybe even like excitement. And all of those emotions, you know, make it hard to see clearly what you need to do and influence how you carry out this advice. And we really wanted to address that as well. And we had a listener write in to us from New Zealand named Hannah, and she had seen a video I had done about quitting and used it to prepare for her conversation. She actually wrote to us right before she was about to have the conversation with

her manager telling her that she was going to leave and was quite nervous about it. I thought that my boss would be angry just because the team is really short-staffed. And it was only a few weeks prior that kind of our program manager has said in a team meeting, gosh, if we lose another staff, we're absolutely stuffed. And I actually had the opportunity to speak with Hannah after she had spoken to our boss and informed her team and made plans for what was next. And it went a little better than she expected. So, Hannah, I understand you watched the video that I posted on LinkedIn about quitting.

I'm curious how your process of quitting differed from what I talked about in that video. Probably the only part of the process that differed, because I watched your video a few times and took notes, was the amount of notice that I gave my employer. So I gave probably more notice than you recommended, just because I felt quite guilty and bad about leaving the team in the first place given we were critically short-staffed to begin with. So how much notice did you give? Three months. That's a long time. Yeah yeah and I'm only contractually obligated to give one month. Oh wow. So the guilt you felt or the responsibility you felt to the team,

how big of a factor was that in your decision to quit? How much were you thinking about that when you were making the decision? I knew it was the right decision to resign, but it held me back from leaving when I really did want to leave. I felt that I had to give a lot of notice and it left me feeling quite anxious about having the conversation and I talked to a few friends just to talk through what I was going to say and what they thought about it all I really wanted someone to say was just do what's best for you and don't worry about the reaction from the manager. Did anyone say that? No, that's what I really wanted someone to say.

So let's step back for a moment and can you just explain the reasons why you were leaving? Sure. So I had three main reasons of why I wanted to leave. The first one is that I wanted to return back to my hometown to be with family. My mum has been sick the last couple of years and now my dad's really sick and with COVID and lockdowns, we have had a few of those lockdowns here in New Zealand, you kind of realise you can't go home when you want to so family is the main one and also I've got family returning from overseas as well yeah just kind of that time in our lives as a family we're connecting back with our Maori and our like whakapapa which is our family connections given we've been disconnected for a couple of generations that's great the second reason is that I have some other life goals

that I want to achieve outside of work a big one is to do the Te Ara Roa which is a trail a hiking trail that goes from the top of New Zealand to the bottom of New Zealand or or vice versa depending on what way you want to do it and that's's five months. So I really wanted to do that. And then the last reason is that I've been working on climate change more broadly in the job that I'm in now, but I would really like to return to the water sector specifically. So to be clear, first of all, I'm sorry about your parents. Yeah.

To be clear, you're not leaving for another job. There's not another job lined up right now. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. Yeah, I am going to do the Te Arawa. And yeah, it's too early to put fellas out for a job post-hike. Yeah.

I'm thinking about that conversation with your boss. And how did the conversation go in your view? Actually, I was so anxious about it. And it couldn't have gone any better. My boss is really understanding and supportive she offered to be a referee she totally understood she has a family herself that family comes first she was really really gutted of course didn't see it coming she was really grateful that I'd given that extra notice yeah maybe not all bosses would be as understanding, but she certainly was.

Yeah. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash

women at work. I want to go back to making the decision. Is there anything you would have done differently about either preparing for the conversation or making the decision now that you know that the outcome wasn't as scary as you anticipated? I think I did the right thing preparing a lot. I always like to prepare for whether it be a resignation conversation or an interview. I think maybe I would have given least notice in the end, having known how well that conversation went. I might have resigned a little bit earlier. Yeah.

Do you have any advice for women who are considering leaving their job and are feeling all those feelings you are having of guilt and anxiety? I guess just know inside that you have to do what's best for you. There's more to life than work too. If you're in the fortunate position to be able to take a break between jobs and go on an adventure like the chataroua or some other through hike or whatever else is on your bucket list kind of mid-career and prepare for that conversation so that some of those anxieties are reduced. Hannah thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm so relieved to hear how well things turned out for you.

Yes, thank you, Amy. And I'm just hoping that New Zealand gets vaccinated piece that really sort of completed the picture for me. Yeah, I think she brought me back to the times when I've left my jobs in the past and how difficult that decision really is. Yeah. Well, in all the like practical, here are five tips for quitting your job, don't really capture that. They can help make it easier to do, but they're not going to get rid of the guilt and the concern that everyone's going to be mad at you that Hannah so clearly expressed. But they will help you address the big question, am I leaving for the right reasons? Yeah, right. I guess that's the point of those emotions, right? Definitely. That they give you pause, they make you reflect. And, you know, I just ran into a colleague of ours who's leaving, and I could tell he was just having such an emotional day.

Oh, God. Okay, I have to go exploit that. Right. Can we convince him to say? Exactly. But and I think that's, I remember this too, Emily, you're bringing me back to the times where I've quit, where even when I knew it was the right thing to do, making the leap from thinking it through to having the conversation took so much emotional management on my part. Just handling the fear, the guilt, the concern, and the reflection of like, is this truly the right thing to do? Yeah. And to me, this really speaks to this idea of work as much more than the tasks you do for eight or more hours a day. And that to be truly engaged in work,

you're buying in emotionally as much as anything, right? Yeah, and to pretend that's not happening doesn't work. No, it doesn't. And also, you gotta feel your feelings, for goodness sake, right? Yeah. What I do really appreciate about the guide is that when I'm in those positions

of having to make a decision that's really emotionally charged, it's really hard to get out of my own head and just decide whether or not it's the right decision. So Amy, you're talking about how when you're feeling this welter of emotions, it sort of forces you to tap the brakes for a sec and reflect. And one of the things you really should reflect on is whether or not this decision is right for you for the long term, right? Yeah, because those emotions are really focused on the short term, the conversation, making the transition. But you really need to think about the long term career impacts. And there was a great article written by Amy Barnard Bond about five reasons you might want to stay at your job right now because of the long-term impacts. And she,

you know, includes reasons like you have a sponsor, which is incredibly difficult to find in a job. So you may be unhappy with certain aspects of the company or your position, but if you have someone who has your back, there's great potential in that. She also talks about the fact that with so many people leaving, there could be new opportunities, positions opening up, projects that don't have anyone at the helm that you could maybe take over. And, you know, if you've been building the right relationships, you can make a move to take some of that over. And the other thing to remember is that the balance of power has shifted to the employee at just about every organization. So you have some juice today that you may not have had a

few months ago. Yeah. Amy actually talks about that in the piece because she says, this is an amazing time to negotiate. So if you have something you want, now is the time to ask for it. And you said that before. Don't leave without asking for what you want. When I think about Ashley Shelby Rosette's advice in our negotiation episode of don't negotiate against yourself.

And I can imagine with all that emotion, you're thinking, well, I don't like this and I want this. I want more flexibility or I need more money, but there's no way they're going to give it to me. Exactly. Oh, gosh. Talk about flashbacks. I'm thinking about all those times where I left a job so mad and never told anyone what I was mad about. Wow. Is that where your advice about being straightforward in the exit interview comes from, Amy?

Well, you know, I do think you have to be political in that interview. But, you know, nothing's going to change unless someone says something. I agree with you. I think this is your opportunity to make the world a better place. Yeah. Emily, have you been honest in your exit interviews? I think I have been. I think I have tried before exit interviews to ask for what I want.

Because at that point, I think I feel like, well, if I've decided that I'm going to leave the job, I kind of have nothing to lose if I ask. Yeah. Well, and I think to bring it together, if you ask for what you want and you don't get it, or they can't give it to you, like in Hannah's case, because what she wants is not at that organization, then the emotion should be a little less, right? You should feel a little less guilty. In that way, it's sort of a mutual decision you've made to part ways and move on with your career. Or at least that particular emotion, the guilt piece of it. But, you know, I've left jobs where I didn't like the boss or didn't quite believe in what I was doing. But leaving behind the relationships,

the comfort and familiarity, that was emotional. We haven't even talked about the fact that leaving a job has so many costs to it. The transition costs, you know, building your reputation at the new place, those connections, those strong ties you have in your current place, you lose a lot when you leave. That's not to say it should hold you back, but you have to be clear-eyed about what you're giving up when you leave. Including the, you know, I mentioned juice before. The influence that you have built up over time just by proving yourself every day. Yeah. Okay, let's take this and go talk to our colleague who's leaving.

Yeah. Can you get him in here? The colleague we're talking about is a key part of our show, Adam Buchholz, who's our audio product manager. And, you know, he's been an advocate for women at work, and we're going to miss him. And not just an advocate, but he's been core to the growth of our whole podcast roster. He's built it. He's supported it. And Adam, don't leave us.

Thank you so much, Adam. Along with Adam, our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Tina Tobey-Mack,

and Eleni Mata. Rob and Maure composed this theme music. I'm Emily Caulfield. I'm Amy Bernstein. Thanks for listening.