Women at Work - That’s Our Show

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

This episode marks the end of a show that’s meant so much to us. Amy Bernstein and Amy Gallo say goodbye, answer two last Ask the Amys questions, and reminisce with founding producer Amanda Kersey. HBR’s Maureen Hoch, who came up with the original idea for the podcast, joins to share how it all began.

Hi, everyone. We have some sad news to share. This is going to be our last episode of Women at Work. Yeah, this is a tough one, and it's a decision that I made purely for business reasons, but this was really hard because this podcast has been a big part of my life for a long time and has given me enormous joy. I've got a lot of gratification out of it. And for much of the last eight years, I guess, it's been the most fun thing I get to do.

So this is a very sad day for me. Yeah, it is. And this show has been such a big part of our lives, and I know it's been a big part of our listeners' lives. So we wanted to take this episode to really talk about what the show has meant and what we are leaving you with, because we're not disappearing. really talk about what the show has meant and what we are leaving you with,

because we're not disappearing. But we want to invite Amanda Kersey, who you hear from occasionally, but what you don't know, I don't think we've ever done justice to the role she plays in this show. She has been, from the very first episode, from the very first trailer,

she has been behind the show, deciding who to bring on the show, what episodes we're doing. She shapes those episodes. She shapes those episodes, she coaches us. Oh my gosh, is that what it's called? She tortures us. She scripts me. She tortures us.

Hi, yes, I'm the person who bosses you two around. Yeah. Yeah, this is a difficult end. We knew it would end one day, of course. And we've built a legacy, I'd say. We really have through, it's not just a podcast. In the literal sense, I'm looking at our books, the Women at Work book series right in front of us. We have a newsletter, Amy Do that you write, that I used to write, that Nicole Torres wrote before me. We have done events, Women at Work Live events. We, what else have we done? Newsletter books. Well we have one of the most active inboxes.

We have a very active inbox. You all write us, we write you back, we love it. I'm actually gonna read from some of the, let's play like the crying game so you can make you cry. Doesn't take much for me. Because I do wanna draw attention to the impact that the show has had and some of the praise that we've gotten, I've called it listener love in our Slack channel, our Women at Work Slack channel.

I would draw. Oh, I love your listener love emails. The beginning of the week, I tried to do it, or the end of the week, some piece of praise to motivate us and just to share what I was hearing. Okay, so I'm gonna read some. We got this one recently from Steph. She says, I love this podcast.

I hope to find a circle of women in my own life that talk about work like this. But until then, the podcast is such a source of support for me. Thank you to the Women at Work team for all you do. Your podcast has been a constant bright spot for me through the ups and downs in my career. And I'm so grateful for you. That was from Michelle. Here's one from Jill.

She says, first, thank you so much for your podcast. Just its existence is enough on those tough days to make me feel better about the state of the world. I've heard every period, single period, episode, period. Some more than once. Me too. I mean, I just thank every single person who wrote in with positive things, constructive

things, with their stories, with their vulnerability. I think about how much we give, but I can't express how much I've gotten from this show. I mean, first and foremost, my relationships with you and with the former co-hosts, the connections with listeners, obviously, but even like my connection with my my daughter because I've been able to share episodes with her, I've been able to invite her on the show. And this is something that I did realize is that I'm not afraid to ask for what I want. You raised me with that idea that like it's okay to ask for things. You've definitely taught that to me. I'm having a proud mom moment of that I raised you to ask for things, but what did you see me ask for that made you feel comfortable?

Yeah, a lot of different things. I think that it varies from like, I've heard you on the phone with credit card companies and airplane companies, like all these different places, just asking for things. It was through example of just seeing you ask for what you want and get it. And we watched her grow up. I know. I know. Now she's going off to college.

I remember when she was just a little thing and coming in and her matched top and bottom. Do you remember that? Yeah, stripes and polka dots. Little stripes and she was adorable. Yep. Oh. Yeah, and it's been a real gift. And the other thing I've gotten is my voice.

I did listen to the first episode I was on, so you did two seasons without me, which I've forgiven you for. But the episode where you introduced me, and my voice sounds squeaky and young, and I just realized through Amanda's adept coaching, obviously modeling you, because you've always had such a strong voice, Amy B.

But also just being able to do this all the time. I've found not just a calmer, more assertive voice in terms of how it sounds, but also what I want to say and what I want to be in the world. Should we tell the origin story of the show? Yeah, let's bring in Maureen. Let's bring in Maureen, I'll go get her. So Maureen, thank you for joining us.

So happy to be here. Appropriate since this was your idea. It was my idea. It was absolutely your idea. They're just for our audience, I need to say that Maureen definitely sort of denied that this was her idea. And I really had to come down hard on you.

You did. Yes. Well, thank you. It was your idea. I would say, as I recall, the fall of 2017, a very specific moment, the Me Too movement, stories of sexual harassment and other pressures women face. And I was newly promoted to the role of editor of hbr.org.

And I, you know, started pitching this idea, like, why don't we do a pop-up podcast? Oh my gosh, I remember this. The pop-up. The pop-up. There's a pop-up, six episodes. Yes, six episodes. Now we're launching this new, limited run podcast, Women at Work. Six episodes each covering one of the big issues we as women have to deal with on the job. Like figuring out how to talk so that our ideas get heard. The challenges of being a female leader and why women aren't advancing. I'm Amy Bernstein, editor of Harvard Business Review.

I'm Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor. I'm Nicole Torres, associate editor. Join our conversation. And from there, I have to say Amanda and Sarah really picked up that idea and ran with it and made it what it is. And I was telling Amanda that I remembered sitting in an early meeting about the show and trying to figure out, you know, again, at that point, we were just still hoping to do one episode. And Amanda came back with a sketch of what that episode could look like about interruptions.

And I remember so clearly thinking, oh, my God God, we're actually gonna be able to do this. Because like the vision that she put together made sense to me, it made sense for HBR, I thought it would do something for the audience, it was different from other things we were doing. Like getting Amy B and Nicole and Sarah to open up about their personal lives, their professional lives. Yeah, that was a big ask of us that I don't know

that everyone totally clots when they got the pitch. Seven years later, you know so much about them. of us that I don't know that everyone totally clots when they got the pitch. Seven years later you know so much about them. But I will always remember our first episode hearing Nicole say... Let's go back for a few minutes to the 1990s. More women were in the office, increasingly working alongside men or above them, not for them. Deborah T those first shows, well first of all I remember that meeting and I remember thinking, well this could be cool and I'm thinking, I wonder who will get to host this?

Because Sarah Green Carmichael came in with years of experience as the host of IdeaCast, our big pod. Yes, flagship. Yeah. Yeah. And Nicole and I had an equal amount of experience in front of the mic, which is to say nothing. And I remember Nicole, I'm sort of looking over to where Nicole used to sit. We left that space empty, like she's with us.

But do you remember just watching her warm to the mic and become more and more comfortable and sort of come into her own? It was a beautiful thing to witness. Okay, how do you get out of those conversations? Because I cannot successfully. I just gave you two lines. Yeah, I used those lines. I need to go get it, you know. Oh, I use those lines. I need to go get it you know. Oh I see someone over there I

need to say hi to. You don't even have to make an excuse. You can say you know it was great to talk to you I hope we run into each other again. Yeah. My line is I have to go and then I actually go. You leave? Wow. You just walk to a different part of the room. It's fun. Okay. Because think about it. They'll see you and they'll know you love them. Of course they'll see you, but they want to move on too. Usually we're... It's not dating.

Right. It was so great to talk to you. I'm going to go get another drink. It was great to talk to you. See you around. See you around. And I have to say, a wonderful friendship grew out of that. And also with Sarah Green Carmichael, who

I knew but I didn't know the way when we all now know each other. I'm hearing a sort of common thread between the two stories that you guys have shared, which is that people pleasing is the path to unhappiness. It was a catalyst. This pod has been a catalyst for a lot of really wonderful relationships. It's hard to believe it's been going on for so long in a way, like to think it was a pop-up idea. By the way, piece of advice we often give is propose something as an experiment and then it will just become permanent. Podcast, exhibit A. Proof of concept, yes. Exactly.

But I don't know if we ever thought we'd get to 10 seasons in seven years. Or to talk about as much as we did. I printed out every year what we, like this one here, that's 2019. Or you take that. Don't give me 20, 20, don't give me 20. Oh, you gave me 20, oh 21, I'll take 20. I mean give me 20-20. Don't give me 20-20. Oh, you gave me 20.

Oh, 21. I'll take 20. Going through everything we did, we have covered dead end work, how to not do that. We talked about the art of claiming credit, parental leave, caregiving, and elder care. What I love is that we'll be chatting. And with any of you, we'll be chatting about something that's bothering us. And we're like, oh, that's an episode. And it's been such a joy to be able to say,

who's the right expert? I mean, the episode about parenting teenagers while working was therapy for me. I think the thing you have to think about is, how do I best manage chaos, not controlling chaos? You're not gonna change the chaos of Harper's life, but what kind of management of that do you need so that you can do your work? Not so that you can control the calendar, or not so that you can control her.

Why can't I control everything, Dana? And the fact that we get to ask Dana Greenberg, one of the foremost researchers on working motherhood, to talk it through with us, it's just an enormous privilege. I'm looking at 2019. Okay, good year. That's the season that Amy G joined us. It's a really good, great season. But I just have to say, you know, Amy G, we were so lucky to be able to ask you to join this group.

Oh my gosh, what a natural. Hi everyone. Welcome, Amy G. Welcome aboard, Amy G. Thank you so many Amys. So many Amys. I'm super excited. I can't think of anyone I'd rather have take my chair.

Thanks, Sarah. I'm actually nervous. I want to make you all proud. And not only were you already the internal counselor for so many of us here but also just as an expert in so many things about how people communicate so Thank you. Yeah, it was like you were always on the show. Yeah, I always thought I like to think I was there since the beginning Although I was on the first episode as a guest Yes, you were. Oh my gosh. So I have been here since the beginning. I have to be included. But 2019 was the year we did, I think I did my first on the scene interview with Lily

Zhang who became such a regular on our podcast. I think the most important thing for managers at the end of the day is ask your gender diverse employees how you can help. You might say during your first one-on-one, hey, I want to help you have the best workplace experience you can. Is there anything that's on your mind? Any way that I can help you out? Just ask. What else happened in 2019? Yeah. Let's see. Okay. 2019, no partner, no kids, no problem. I remember that one too. Although single childless people don't have things like child care

responsibilities, they don't have the same level of domestic responsibilities, what we do see in our research is that they are reporting more community involvement, they are reporting more personal development, and that's even controlling for age. Tracy Dumas, I saw her recently at a conference. What year do you have Amy B? What's in front of you? Oh, did I give you 2020? I have 2020. 2020, the April that we had recorded multiple episodes and then the pandemic happened and then we dumped all those episodes.

I remember that so well. Yeah started recording in my daughter's bedroom. I remember you recording in your daughter's bedroom. I was kneeling in our closet. Under a blanket at times, remember? Under a blanket at times. And then halfway through I just said, screw it. I'm sitting at my desk in my home office and I don't care if it echoes because my knees hurt And it's hot I am not comfortable Those were hard times, but we did some good episodes the episodes were good and and boy did that's

Probably when I felt the most acute need from our listeners for what we could bring to them. Yeah. You know? Here, let me try to make y'all cry again because I remember this quote. This is from a woman who listened in 2020 to our Beyond Stretch episode and she said, I listened this morning and I cried. I just cried.

Having others say out loud, put my feelings and struggles into words and conversation made them real in a way that I had been trying to minimize to myself. I know there are no easy answers and appreciate that you didn't try to provide any. So thank you for this episode. Be safe and well. That's from Jessica, 2020. Oh, I hope Jessica's doing well now. I have 2021. Yes, take us back. So 2021 was fun because we did a pop-up with family management with Erica Troxler and Kevin Evers for episodes about trying to work with a family during the pandemic. So the last time we saw each other, it was February 2020.

Willie was four months old at the time, so I had a newborn baby. And you were expecting your second at the time. Yes. So yeah, my last trimester was home with Claire without daycare. So Claire was around full time, working full time. My husband was working full time. He was in the travel industry. So you can imagine how that went. So he also was dealing with a lot of work.

Oh, those episodes were amazing. Kevin and Erica did a wonderful job sharing their worries, hopes. That was also the season or the year we introduced the Essentials episodes. Yes. We did the very first one on giving feedback with Therese Houston, who was wonderful. And that's school principal. Oh, I loved her. The tricky part is all too often employees will come in saying, you know, Jessica, could you give me some feedback on my teaching?

And Jessica's like, of course. And Jessica assumes they want one kind of feedback when they really want another. So the advice I would have for principals, for Jessica, for anyone in a management role would be to say I'd love to give you some feedback. What would be most helpful to you right now? Do you want me to let you know what I love about your work? Would you like some coaching and advice? Or do you want to know where you stand? And that series, we got to learn about skills through the context of an individual woman's life and her job and her priorities and concerns.

Yeah. That was also, 2021 was also the year we can brag a little. We had a Nobel Prize winner on our show. We did, Claudia Golden. Yeah. Economist Claudia Golden. About greedy work and how so many of the inequities that women face are about the way we structure jobs. An employee who is willing to work at all hours in the evenings, weekends, vacations,

is on call at the office, is the worker who gets big rewards. These rewards can be disproportionate to the amount of time put in, meaning that doubling the number of hours more than doubles the earnings. Yeah, she wasn't a Nobel Prize winner when we, meaning I interviewed her. Yeah. But it was the interview, I think, that tipped the Nobel Prize committee. Well, that's exactly where I was going, yeah. You're welcome Claudia. And 2021 was the year that Emily Caulfield joined us as a host. Yeah. Oh Emily.

So I was really hoping that I was going to have completed something huge by this time that we had this conversation and I haven't yet but I have worked on my passion projects every day. So that's felt good. I was really happy to have you guys here waiting for me. We were. We were waiting. Emily was at my house last week hanging out in the backyard.

How's Emily doing? Very well. Started another business. Emily is an entrepreneur, artist, designer, community builder. And she has a studio in Cambridge now, where she does workshops. I learned how to make candles with Emily.

That was fun. It was fun. My core memory of Emily joining the podcast was that our first meeting, because it was pandemic, was in a park. Yes. You're listening to Women at Work, and we are sitting outside. We're outside together, finally, after months of being apart. And we've got a new person with us, our HBR colleague, Emily Caulfield, who's our new co-host.

Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be sitting beside the two of you for the show, and I cannot believe it's real. Oh, I miss Emily. I have 2022. OK. What happened in 2012? Take us back. OK. Oh, that was the year we introduced

the Getting Along series. Oh, yeah. Where Amy Gallo. My book came out. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, it talks to people dealing with difficult people at work. George is so defensive about everything and attacks every idea.

So then I'm just constantly considering, OK, is it worth it to say anything? Because what's the likelihood of getting a response that will feel good versus a response where I'm going gonna go home and scream into a pillow for an hour. And that was, we did a live event around the book too. And I remember that my memory from that is that there was this woman, we had a thank you to everyone who came.

There was a nice long line for me to sign books and this woman got to the front of the line and she said, I'm going out to drinks with the three people I just met in line waiting to have a book signed. And she emailed us and said, we'm going out to drinks with the three people I just met in line waiting to have a book signed. And she emailed us and said, we're going to meet monthly. There were four people who had never met before,

met in that line, and said, we had so much to talk about, and we're going to meet monthly because we all live here in Boston. That's amazing. That was also a year that exemplifies the scope of what we covered and who we made episodes for. One episode was the ups and downs of being a first-time manager.

And then the next episode, I think, was have you started thinking about retirement? And then there's a, when your partner isn't giving you the support you need, and working while managing your child's mental health. We covered so many, how to push for policy changes at your company, which is, you know, you could do at any point in your career. But we really spoke to the breadth of women's experiences.

Yeah. And that's, I mean, we know from our audience surveys, the range of ages and experience levels and different industries that you all come from and we've always tried to speak to as many of you as possible while also giving the advice you need for what you're facing. I think one of my favorite episodes was about working in a male-dominated career. It's something we get asked about all the time. We got to talk to students from Olin, which is an engineering school that has an even number of male and female students. We got to talk to their professor.

I did go for the masters and then I found this job at the aerospace company where I had a fantastic female mentor and had generally a good experience, which is a funny thing to say because there were pockets that were a harder space to be in as a woman. So the machine shop. Yeah, I loved anytime we went out into the field. Yeah, yeah. All right, I'm going to cut us off at 2022 because we have some parting words of advice and we have some gratitude to express and final farewells so I want us to have time to do all that because I'm producing you. Bossing us around one last time. One last time. So the episode that came out

before this one was an Ask the Amys. You took on seven questions from newsletter readers from our listeners. Since then, some more have come in. We can't get to all of them, but we're going to get to a couple. And Maureen's going to help me read the questions, and then you two can give your advice. This first one is from a woman who, she's an executive. She works at a small tech startup. She's been there for several years. Actually, she's been there since our podcast started, 2018. She was hired to lead people operations.

And over the years, she's come on to lead HR operations and now finance. She's not an accountant, but in December, she was told she would receive a bonus if she flawlessly completed some finance tasks in Q1. She said, I knew that was unlikely, but I committed to doing my best, and I have. I've worked hard to learn, build processes, and ask the right questions. She goes on to write, but I'm doing this alone.

I often require input from my CEO to complete the month-end close, but his responses, when they come, can take weeks. I'm still expected to close the books within the first four business days. I'm set up to fail, yet held to standards that assume I'm fully resourced and supported. The truth is, I'm not. I'm often told in team settings that I'm valued, she puts that in quotes, but I don't feel it in my day-to-day experience. I've been excluded from board meetings despite being a VP. I'm the only woman in the company and the only person who is not an engineer.

It feels like a boys club and increasingly like a place where I don't belong. I deeply value transparency and candor, as does my CEO, or at least he used to, but somewhere along the way that trust eroded. We no longer communicate in a meaningful way, and I'm left guessing, questioning, and bracing for what's next. I'm still holding up HR, operations, and finance. I don't take real vacations. There's no one to step into my role when I'm away.

So even when I do take time off, I stay tethered. I haven't truly unplugged in years. I'm 57. I know I bring a great deal of experience, heart and resilience to my work. But I also know how tough the job market can be at this stage. And right now I'm emotional. I feel like I could be let go at any moment because I don't have the accounting skills he wants, the CEO, skills that I was never hired to have in the first place. I feel discarded, I feel sad, and I'm grieving a workplace I used to believe in." What do you think? Breaks my heart.

Well, it's terrible. And she has been set up to fail. and any enticement that is conditioned on flawless completion of the task is just cruel. That's terrible. This is a person with deep experience and understanding in HR, operations and finance. She's worth her weight in platinum on the market. She ought to go out there and test it. Yeah. And I think she's setting up the idea of leaving as a failure.

And as a betrayal. Right. A betrayal and a failure on her part. What if leaving is a next step in her career because she's gained so much and she has more to offer to an organization that will welcome her? She hasn't failed in any sense of the term. No. I think she might find some tips.

And if she listens to our 2024 episode, How to Leap Mid-Career, that episode is about from one industry to another, but there's some good advice for people who are really busy and burned out. How do you find a new job? Just how to make the time? Yeah. Because she's got a full plate. Yeah. Take a vacation please. Yeah. Please. Okay.

Maureen, you're gonna introduce the next question. Okay, so this question has a subject line, preparing for the job after the job, and it comes from a woman who was part of a large layoff in January from her, what she calls her dream career path. And she says the job she was doing wasn't perfect, but it was laying the groundwork for the next steps of what she saw as a really long career with that company. You know, she liked the people, she liked the culture, the industry, everything was going great. She gets laid off. So now she's taking a job that she says is fine. And it is a tough market right now. She sees some potential, but it's not really where she wants to be. Her question

is, can you offer advice for how to exist and do my best in this job, but also lay the groundwork to leave for a different opportunity? I'm trying to see the positives. I think this role will force me to work on my executive presence and give me experience in a semi-government workplace. So I think she's already doing all the right things in terms of focusing on the positive of this just okay job, but also thinking about what isn't working for her for this job. Is it not the right industry? Is it not the right role?

Is it not the right salary? What is it that's not working? And do the things. I mean, she mentions later in the letter that she wants to maybe do some volunteering. That's a great way to be exposed to other things. Do some networking. Like, just have that learning mindset all the time. What can I get from this? And the other thing, you can learn in the negative, meaning maybe this job is teaching you what you don't want, and that's just as important, you know? I totally agree with you.

Excellent advice, no surprise. It's a bummer you two won't be doing this regularly anymore. Yeah. But find me in coffee shop. I give out advice to anyone who asks. But of course, all the Ask the Amies that we've done are in the feed and the feed, the show is gonna live on through that archive. You can always listen to any of the episodes you missed. We listen to some of your favorites if you're missing us. Buy our books. Buy our books. They're right in front of us. Yeah. Next level negotiating. Yeah. You, the leader, speak up, speak out, taking charge of your career. What about Amy's book? Getting along and the HBR guide to dealing with conflict. Yeah. Right? HBR guide to dealing with conflict. Yes, I have to say it myself to remember it. And HBR has so many other resources, the IdeaCast, Muriel Wilkins podcast, Coaching Real Leaders.

I mean, a great way to keep up with all of us and the work that we're doing here is to subscribe to HBR. And we have a new offering too, right, Nia? It's HBR Executive, which is geared toward the C-suite, very senior leaders, anchored by a newsletter from Adi Ignatius, our editor at large, former editor in chief, and it includes webinars and playbooks. Master classes. Master classes which are fantastic.

I learned a lot about managing my calendar from Nithinoria, even though I'm not a CEO. And you should check it out. You can just go to hbr.org and find it. That's a project, HBR Executive is a project that I'm going to be working on after Women at Work is done. Yeah. And I want this audience to help shape the newsletter and the webinars and anything else related.

So if you're an executive and you want to have influence here, please say so through a LinkedIn note. You can connect with me or an email to womenatworkathbr.org so I can add you to my list of sources, so I can call you, email you, shadow you at your job. Yeah. Yeah. And if and when you email womenatworkathbr.org, you'll get our auto response, which is going to include listening and reading lists by topic. So feel free to reach out to us.

You'll get that. And as I said at the very beginning, we're not disappearing. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Please go to my personal website, amiegallow.com. You can sign up for my personal newsletter there. I'd love to stay in touch with as many of you as possible. So I want to say thank you to every guest who has joined us and shared her wisdom, to every listener who wrote in to share her story, and who helped us figure out what to cover and how. We're grateful to the rest of our editorial and production

team, our associate producer, Hannah Bates. Testing, testing. Do you want me to keep talking? Oh, it's fine. You were great. Like, totally editable. Plenty to edit around. Yeah.

So you're hosting this one, huh? I am. Guest hosting. Oh, edit around. Yeah. So you're hosting this one, huh? I am. Guest hosting. Oh, how exciting. Yeah. Our engineer, Tina Toby Mack. So if it looks like the recording isn't there, don't panic. Do you have something you can read for me or just want to tell me how great Halloween

was or breakfast or how much you love your sweatshirt so I can send this to Amanda because I think you sound pretty good. You're a natural. You're totally a natural. Our audio product manager, Ian Fox, and our post-production specialist, Rob Eckhart. We're also grateful to everyone who's ever worked on the show. First and foremost, Sarah Green Carmichael, who was one of the founding co-hosts. Carmichael, who was one of the founding co-hosts. Big shoes for me to fill when she left. Nicole Torres, who sat in this room with us for many years.

Adam Buchholz was our founding audio product manager. He helped bring the show to life. Get it out to all of your ears, into all of the feeds. We miss Adam a lot. Emily Caulfield was such an important part of the feeds. We miss Adam a lot. Emily Caulfield was such an important part of the show during deep pandemic days and really brought some light to our conversations. And Erica Truxler, who you've heard a few times on the show, she's been a guest talking about maternity leave. She was the co-host of our short but sweet

2021 series, Family Management. And she has been our show note editor, our newsletter editor, along with Holly Bauer. And Eric has also just been a fan and all around supporter of the show. It's clear that we're leaving with very full hearts and the deepest gratitude for your trust and your time and your voices.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.