Women at Work - The Ups and Downs of Being a First-Time Manager

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

When managing other people for the first time, what should we expect, and how can we prepare? Three new managers describe their growing pains, reflect on what they find most rewarding, and talk through their latest challenges — with an assist from Amy B’s managerial wisdom. You’ll come away with a better idea of what becoming a boss means and confident that you can do it too.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. Amy B., remind me how long you've been a manager. I have been a manager for about 30 years. That's a long time. 28 years. Yeah. And have you managed both people and projects that whole time? Yeah, both. And they were inseparable. I mean, so projects, it was managing a section of a magazine, that sort of thing. Did you find one more challenging, being responsible for a project for the first time or being responsible for someone else? Well, managing people is infinitely more challenging.

How so? Getting a project done has a beginning, middle, and an end. And then it's over. But managing people is ongoing, and the sense of responsibility you feel for their well-being in the workplace, I really take it seriously that I want people on my team to want to be part of that team, and to want to do the work every day day and to feel really proud of what they do and for their development insofar as they need help with that. Yeah. So when you first started out, though, did you have that same sense of purpose and

vision about what you wanted to do? Absolutely not. All those years ago, I don't recall anyone learning about management, thinking about management as a separate pursuit from getting a magazine out or getting a TV show produced, right? Right. You were just focused on the end game, not the process. Exactly. It was all about the thing we were doing, not about how we were getting it done. Yeah. I have one more question about this transition you made. In the early days of being a manager, what did you find most challenging? You know, in the very early days, you're hit by so many new expectations that just getting them into focus and understanding what's going on here is hard. But I do remember early on just having this realization that I had gone from as a solo contributor, really having to fight for myself to reorienting to the idea that I'm fighting for the people I work with, who work on my team, but also for the organization, right?

That my responsibilities extend way beyond me. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Amy Gallo. Learning to lead other people is a stressful stretch assignment. Much of that stress stems from the misconceptions that individual contributors bring into the job. Misconceptions around how much authority they'll have, where power flows from, which outcomes they're responsible for, and the key challenges to come. Then they start doing the work and realize they don't know what they've gotten themselves into because no one told them the truth about what it means to be in charge.

These are findings from research by Linda Hill, a Harvard Business School professor who's an expert on the experiences and failures of first-time managers. She's also described how new managers she's studied through, and became effective and successful leaders. After you finish listening to this episode, you might want to check out her book, Being the Boss, and really anything she's written for HBR. Yeah, Linda is amazing. Other researchers have covered how gender bias makes the growing pains more painful for women. A lot of people, unfortunately, still don't see women as cut out for leadership, even if they never say so to your face. Subtle acts of exclusion can prevent us from developing a firm identity as a leader, especially if our companies aren't taking certain actions to support that development. We'll touch on one of those actions a little later.

On a related note, sorry, just one more downer, but I promise it's all uphill from here. Becoming a manager increases men's job satisfaction, but not women's. The researcher behind that finding, Daniela Loop, thinks the gap has to do with women being the human beings that we are, underestimate the probability that bad things like sexism will happen to us. And so she recommends that any woman considering entering management get a realistic assessment of the difficulties encountered by female managers. The more they are aware of these difficulties, she says, the more they can prepare for them. Which is why we're bringing in three women who can give us a realistic assessment.

They've all been managers for less than a year. They've been dealing with these difficulties, and they've gained so much wisdom along the way. Tanya's an electrical engineer in the public transportation industry in Boston. Maddy's a business analyst at a nonprofit in London. And Greta's a scientist in Madrid working for a global climate tech startup. So first, I want to thank all of you for joining us. Well, thank you so much for the conversation. Thank you, Amy. I want to start at the beginning with a question to all of you.

Tell us how you became a manager. Let's start with you, Tanya. Well, so I'm an engineer. So on a day-to-day basis, I'm helping solve complex engineering problems. And when I got into the industry, I started working and, you know, I started doing my engineering things. And pretty soon I realized that it wasn't just solving problems that interested me. It was also how you deal with people that really interested me. So I figured that, you know, let's try and explore that.

And I shared that with my managers. And when the opportunity knocked on my door, I opened it and I was like, here I am. Terrific. And what about you, Maddy? I kind of fell into it. I did not follow my university-planned career path, my background's in music, and I very quickly realized that's not a career for me. And I ended up working for higher education roles, where I slowly got given more and more control over projects, and realized that that was something I enjoyed doing, and that was something that I seemed to be naturally quite good at. And so I slowly transitioned into being more of a business analyst, and I saw this role come up that I do now. And I kind of applied for it on a whim.

And I never thought I was going to get it because I always think I'm not quite qualified enough. And I had the interview. And it felt like the perfect job for me. And I kind of fell into becoming a people manager. It was not really something I set my sights on. But it's been a few months. I'm quite enjoying it.

It seems to be going okay so far yeah and what about you Greta so a little bit like Maddy it just kind of fell by working in a startup and suddenly the startup grows and it needs to have management and in my case they gave me the space to inquire a little bit what it meant to be a manager for a few weeks and then people upstead their job on like is this a the right person to become a manager with a little bit of hindsight before working at the startup I was working at a company that was self-managed so I think without knowing it I became a manager by being my own manager and and that was pretty pretty tough I think I'm it, I became a manager by being my own manager. And that was pretty tough.

I think I'm pretty difficult to manage, actually, for myself. I want to go back to you, Tanya. Tell us about how you prepared to step into the role. You really didn't fall into it. It was something that you took aim for. So how did you prepare? I think my preparation being a manager was kind of twofold. When I let my managers know that this is what I was interested

in, they started giving me small things to deal with. Maybe they were lower stakes, but it was to say, you know, they gave me the freedom to explore how I would deal with the situation. So that was one thing that I did. And secondly, it was, I think, also knowing that because I wanted to be a manager, I also wanted to get my technical base to be really strong. Like I really wanted to know what I'm talking about. When I talk to people, I should know what I'm talking about. I really do not want to be one of those people who doesn't know what they're doing or they appear to not know what they're doing. So trying to figure out what to do and also trying to know what I'm talking about.

Right. If that makes sense. Yes, absolutely. So I'm wondering when you first stepped into the role, you came in from the outside, right, Maddy? I did. What were some of the biggest obstacles you faced? I think my biggest obstacle, because I'm quite a bit younger than some of my team, was kind of proving that I am capable of doing the job and that I will be good as a people manager as well as heading up the team. So my previous team, I'd been promoted a few times, but I worked there over the course of five years and I kind of worked my way up.

So everybody knew me and knew my strengths where I was coming in from outside into heading up a team. I feel like there's a lot of pressure on me to prove that I'm highly capable and worthy of having that management role, given that I am quite young. So let's dig into this question of building trust, because that's really challenging. And I recall facing that as well when I first went from being an individual contributor to managing people. I'm wondering what you've learned about building trust as you've become more comfortable as a manager. Tanya, any thoughts about that? I think for me, the basic way of building trust is to also show that you have respect for the other person. And I think in

turn, you start getting respect. The issue that Maddie faces, that's exactly how it is with me too. I'm probably one of the youngest people in my team and everybody i manage you know it ranges from people maybe a year older to me versus somebody who's 30 years older to me i think i have figured it out where if i generally do have respect for them and i show it to them they kind of build that respect and trust towards me as well and then you know i think another key to build someone's trust is to also show that you're not there to just prove your authority over them. You're here to learn as well. And every single day you ask them questions and they feel like

they can put their trust in you because even if you don't know what you're doing, you would go back and ask them what their opinion is. So Maddy, how does Tanya's approach sound to you? I think it sounds good. I think the asking questions is something that I'm slowly getting better at. When I first came in, I think I told myself that I shouldn't ask questions because I should know everything. But obviously every company runs completely differently.

I changed sectors when I changed jobs. So there are a lot of things that I didn't know. And I think I was afraid of coming in and looking like an idiot, like I didn't know. And I think I was afraid of coming in and looking like an idiot, like I didn't have any clue what I was doing. But I think that level of kind of openness and maybe even some vulnerability is really key when you're trying to forge those trusting relationships with your team. But for me at the very beginning, what helped me a lot was that I said, do you have any questions for me? So I felt that the only way

of getting answers was to first prove that I was going to give also information because I found the topics that had to be covered. Some can be difficult to share for some people like mental health, work-life balance, and only someone is going to tell you that they're going through something difficult or hard if maybe you've said the same at some point. So when the word vulnerability was said, that really resonated with me of even myself saying, ask me questions, I'll answer. And that for me was very important to do. And this sounds like this need to be vulnerable, to win trust seems like something that the three of you kind of learned in the moment on the job. I'm wondering, and I'll put this to you, Maddy, when you became a manager initially, what did you realize you were wholly unprepared for?

What part of the job did you realize you really needed to think hard about? I think for me, it was, I had worked in the same kind of level for such a long time that I was so used to being involved in every little detail of things that were going on. And I really like to, I'm a bit of a control freak. I really like to know what's going on. I really like to be able to keep my eye on everything. And when I first came in and my team has multiple projects on the go, I physically do not have the capacity to keep an eye on every single little task that's going on. And I was so wholly unprepared to give up the level of control that I was used to and trust that other people do actually know what they're doing. I had to

kind of ease off a bit and focus on the high level, but learn to trust other people with kind of the day-to-day running of these projects, which was really difficult when I first started. I really like being in control of them. Yeah. Tanya, what about you? When I was offered this position, the first thing I said was, wow, that's a scary thought. Like, you know, I just, I was like, wow, is this really happening? And then the manager, you know, he just said, well, you can do it, you know, and we're here for everything you need. But even in that moment, you know, I knew I could do it on a day-to-day basis, but I was totally not prepared to have a vision, to have a strategy on how I would do this long-term. And I think I'm still trying to figure it out, but that's, that's kind of what I was not prepared to have a vision, to have a strategy on how I would do this long term. And I

think I'm still trying to figure it out. But that's kind of what I was not prepared for, even though I always wanted to do this. all? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor, Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI

in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Mudupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. Greta, what part of managing took you by surprise when you first started? I think the whole thing. Like, I honestly didn't know what to expect. And so everything was like a continuous discovering of like, oh, this happens. Okay, great. Next, next. So I think the whole thing took me by surprise. I don't think I had expectations, good or bad, so I took everything a little bit of like a discovery. I think what took me by surprise is how difficult it is to be a people manager whilst not being a work manager.

So that's my case. I do not manage the work of people. So I actually, not only what Maddy was saying about not hoping that people know what they're doing, it's like, I know very little of what people have to do. Each of them have their work. And then I also have my work as an individual contributor. So what was interesting for me was to create like a network with other people from the company to understand what was the ecosystem that was happening for each of those people and and try to see how they could get that feedback that has to be a little bit like continuous and then yeah what has surprised me as well is that I struggle to get feedback from the people I manage.

I think I'm doing, it seems like a good job because people tell me, no, you're doing a good job. I'm like, OK, great. So let's continue. So you know you're doing a good job because people are telling you you're doing a good job. The team, like the people operations team, but not necessarily the people I manage, I think. And what do you think is getting in the way of your getting feedback from the people you manage? I think it's just, I am their manager.

So it feels a little bit like tricky to evaluate a person that has some control of certain things, even if it seems as small as approving holidays. So I think that's a little bit of a blocking. But I also think maybe in my particular case where I manage scientists and they may not have had a manager before, is what to expect from a manager. So it's difficult to calibrate what is good, what is bad, what is okay. So Maddy, I'm wondering if you have any advice for Greta about how to deal with this challenge of getting feedback from the people you manage and how to calibrate. Any thoughts? I've not by any means

cracked this, but I've made some progress by I have like weekly or bi-weekly catch-ups with my team, depending on kind of where they're at and what level of support they need. And we've always started with what's something that you're really proud of this week and what's something that you could have done with my support on. Like I wasn wasn't aware what was going on, or I just wasn't there when they really needed it. And so that's been a way for them to kind of be able to highlight where they're having problems, but also they've just been able to celebrate their successes. So they might feel a bit happier about being open about, you know, you really dropped the ball on this. I had to chase you like three or four times to get it done, that kind of thing.

Something you just said was really helpful, which is instead of saying, what do you think of me? How am I doing? You gave them a very specific question. What could you have used more support on? Right? Yeah, I think they were a lot more open about kind of work specific things where they might need help that I've kind of then been able to over the last kind of four or five months figure out where there might be areas where as a manager I need to develop if it's you know I'm not very responsive when they're tagging me in like DevOps issues or I'm not very good at replying to emails or picking up messages on time and that's causing them delays that's kind of an area of feedback that I've slowly seen that I can then pick up on.

And I think they're a lot more comfortable providing like work related examples than just being honest about like, you don't reply when I send you a message or it just takes too long for you to do something. Right. I actually... Go ahead, Tani. I just want to jump in because something that Greta said really, I think, resonated with me when she said that it's tough to go to somebody you manage

and ask them for how you're doing as a manager because what are they even supposed to say? Well, you didn't approve my vacation and I'm angry at you. So how do you really go ask someone about how you are managing them? You could ask for specific things like how can you use my support?

But what other kind of feedback could you ask them that validates that you are being a good manager? I have several thoughts about this because management to me has two dimensions. There's managing people, and we've really been focusing on managing people. And then there's managing projects. And for the latter, you know that you're doing a good job if the job gets done well. But you want to make sure that in the course of getting the project done well, that the team doing the project is feeling good about their work and good about their collaboration and is really proud of the outcome. And so I'm going to pick up on Maddie's theme of the specific question.

How could I have supported you better? You know, even an after action review can be a form of feedback. What were the barriers? How could we remove the barriers? It doesn't actually have to be about you. And then in the moment, you know, you don't have to actually say, give me feedback to get feedback. You can see in the way people engage with their work. You can see it in the way that they engage with each other.

And if you can read from their demeanor and the way they show up that they seem to be happy doing what they're doing, then something's going right. And you don't actually have to have someone come back to you and say, you know what, Greta, you are an awesome boss. You know, Tanya, I don't know where I'd be without you. You can see it in the way they engage with their work and in the way the work is getting done. That's just one thought. It's sort of reading signals. They're indirect rather than direct. I do want to ask you guys a question. It's such a change to move from an individual contributor role to a management role. And Tanya, I wonder how you've experienced that shift and how that feels to you personally. Yeah, absolutely. So I think being an individual

contributor, all you're thinking about is how do I get this done? And really, you're just washing it off your hands and giving it to somebody else to take care of. But I think as a manager, you're getting that work for, I don't know, as many people as you manage. So for probably 20 or 30 people that I manage right now, that's what I'm getting. And then I'm trying to figure out how do I strategize this? How, what's my vision? You know, I take the work of 30 people, I put it together, but what does it really mean? So I think I'm trying to figure out personally

what that transformation looks like. Because I think, you know, maybe I should have a certain kind of managerial style where I try to be helpful, but also, you know, I switch hats and I become but also, you know, I switch hats and I become the manager, you know, but that transformation is something that I struggle with because I also feel like I should be me and I shouldn't change who I am because I got this role because somebody must have thought I'm capable of doing it. So maybe that's a question to Greta and Maddy as well.

How did you deal with that transformation? How did you mentally think differently when you became a manager? Maddie, you want to take a swing? Sure. I certainly felt the same way as you, that I had to become like a manager when I became a manager and that it was going to be effectively, I had to find another side of my personality or something had to change. But then I did come to that realization that you were saying, Tanya, that, you know, I was given this job based on who I am. And so it took a while, and I'm still not totally comfortable with it. But I think I've started to just try and be more authentically myself. And it's tough, because there are times when I'm like, oh, maybe if I'd been firmer about something, where maybe I wasn't clear enough. And if I'd been firmer about something where maybe I wasn't clear enough, and if I'd

been more of a stereotypical male manager and just been very blunt or to the point, we may not have had delays or confusion. But I think that's just something I have to take as a learning experience. And fundamentally, I can only be me. Right. Well, have you ever heard of the double bind? Any of you? No. So the double bind is this trade-off that women in leadership roles have to deal with, where they have to balance the need to demonstrate competence with the need to be likable. There's a great article that we ran a few years ago called Women Rising the Unseen Barriers. And I learned a lot from this article. But that double bind feels so real to me, where, you know, you said, Maddie,

to manage like a man, which no one thinks ill of a guy for being firm and for stating his view and for moving along without being super, you know, collaborative and taking into account the views and feelings of everyone in the room. And so I think when you think about this double bind, one of the things that the authors of this article recommend is that you settle on a purpose as a leader. Who do you want to be? I think that's something you said, both of you, Tanya and Maddie, and I would love to hear what you think of this, Greta, but who are you as a leader? How do you want to be? I think that's something you said, both of you, Tanya and Maddie, and I would love to hear what you think of this, Greta, but who are you as a leader? How do you want to show up as a leader?

That will help you navigate that double bind. Greta, how does that sound to you? Does that ring any bells? So many. And I read the article and it was really shocking. So in my previous job, because of being a self-managed organization, a lot of self-reflection has to happen. And one of the important things that the person of people operations there taught me was find

your own purpose. So after being in the company for like a year and a half, I spent a whole week self-reflecting and I asked for lots of feedback and somehow I managed to get a purpose out of it. And that has been helping me to make decisions since then. And I think maybe I may not have struggled so much because I had that homework done before

that I'm pretty amazed of how much return of investment I've got just from doing that exercise. So it was really nice to read about it and be like, oh, yeah, it actually seems like I did the right thing following this research. Terrific. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one

platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. You know, I'd love to ask you, I wonder if any of you would be willing to share a managerial challenge that you're dealing with right now. And let's see if we can help you. Maddie, I saw you nod your head. Yeah, I have. I have a couple, but I think the biggest one I'm trying to deal with at the moment is we're about to hit appraisal season. So I've been starting to have more structured discussions with my team about what we're going to be looking at in their

appraisals. And I have a member of my team who is phenomenal. They're incredibly experienced, but they've been in this role for probably 18 to 20 years and they have no desire to change role and they don't really have any identified kind of development goals if there's learning they want to do or if there's a you know different type of project or if we're looking at coding stuff if there's a new language they want to learn and I find it quite difficult to understand that as someone who's always I have like 93 courses on the go at any one time to stop myself from getting bored but also in terms of how I'm going to do this appraisal we always have to set

development goals and just trying to find something I want to push them to develop but I don't want to push them outside of their like so far outside of their comfort zone that they don't thrive. I want them to continue doing this incredible work that they're producing. But it's a tricky situation to try and balance. All right. How would you handle it, Tanya? Well, I think I would probably ask this person what it is that they want to do. Maybe this is not the situation that you're in.

But I also have someone similar. But when I asked them what they want to do, they told me they were pretty content in their role and that they were not really looking for a challenge. So I think that helped me scale back and say, well, if they don't want more, then what is it that I can give them? What about you, Greta? So the way I see it is you can also just enjoy the slow journey with them. It's a little bit of like being by their side. And yeah, I see a little bit of like a journey companion type of thing. But I don't know if it works from my own experience. I think it's such an interesting challenge,

particularly if you are so focused on your own growth as a manager in this new role. But you have to remember that part of your job as a manager is to make sure you are setting up the people you're responsible for for success and that success takes place in organizational terms, but also in very personal terms. So understanding what this individual really wants. You know, I think you could have a conversation ahead of the appraisal, Maddie,

where you say, you know, it's not a secret, it's appraisal season. But I'd love to know ahead of time what your ambition is. Where do you want to be so I can do well by you in this appraisal? In that spirit, I would have that conversation. You never want to have an appraisal that's a surprise to the person being appraised. The other thing is if what the person says to you is, you know what, I am in the job that makes me happy, and I don't want to take on more responsibility, then you have to calibrate your feedback to that fact that this person is really happy, and to something else that you pointed out, that this person really does a great job. You want this person to continue to do the great job. And you are responsible for ensuring that this person enjoys doing that

great job and wants to stick on this team. So one thing I sometimes do in appraisals is I actually, I hope our people leader isn't listening, but sometimes I ignore the category on top of the box, you know, and sometimes I just ask in the appraisal, what would help you do your job better? And, you know, how do I set you up for the success you have in mind? Because frankly, you're doing a great job and you're not looking for a promotion and you're not looking for a change of responsibility. So what's missing for you?

And let's talk about that. You know, it's really calibrated to the individual because I know that this person is valuable and I wanna make sure that this person is happy doing what this person is doing. I hope that's helpful to you. Yeah, definitely. Tanya, tell us about a challenge you're facing.

Okay. So as I mentioned, I became a manager about three months ago when I took over the role from my former manager that I still work with. I work with him on a daily basis. So obviously, this person has been through pretty much everything that I'm going through on a daily basis. So I'm inclined to go ask for help. And I get help every single time. What now happens

is that because there's a lot of pressure to get things done right, managing a multimillion dollar project, any mistake you make can cost you a lot of money. So it comes down to the fact that, you know, sometimes I struggle with well when should I continue asking for advice or when should I not ask for advice and do this on my own because granted the advice is going to be great but then it kind of goes back to is this really who I am you know like if my former manager would suggest well this is how I would deal with the situation and I don't agree with that maybe I have the option of not doing that. But then I think, will I make a mistake by not listening to them?

You know, if I do this my own way, is it going to come back and bite me? I struggle with when should I ask for advice? When should I not? And of course, somebody else's experience is my game. So if I can learn from them, that's the biggest learning that I can have too. So it's when to ask for advice and when not, but also whether you have to take it once you've asked for it. Yeah. And they always say, find your own path, which makes sense. But then what does that really mean? Like, what is your path? Where are you going? All right, Maddie, your turn. How would you help Tanya? I think I certainly did this at the start of more maybe my project managing than people managing. And I would ask my former manager,

you know, how would you deal with this? Have you dealt with things like this in the past? And he was actually the one who told me that the best thing for me to kind of start feeling more confident and to start taking more responsibility for my decisions was he wouldn't give me advice until I basically had to sit down and say, this is what I'm thinking. These are the pros I've identified. These are the cons. And not what would you do, but have I missed anything? So it taught me that, you know, I can trust myself. I do know what I'm doing. And over time, it meant that I would actually go to them less and less often for advice because I'd go, oh, well, this

isn't exactly the same situation as what I've dealt with before. But last time we did this, can I maybe, you know, shape what I'm thinking of doing now based on the decision that I made before? So being forced to kind of do all of the work myself and then just say what have what have i not considered is there like some blindingly obvious thing that i've just completely overlooked uh really helped me to start to not ask for advice but also just feel confident and saying you know what actually i don't agree with that i see it completely differently and the confidence is such an important part of it but you, this question of whether you have to take advice, that's where figuring out who you want to be as a leader and how you want to show up and what, where your compass

is, you know, if being kind is important, if showing your competence is important, if fairness is important, you set your own priorities, and that will help you figure out whether or not to take the advice. Because if a piece of advice doesn't sit well with you, then you owe it to yourself to ask why and really examine that. And that means you have to engage emotionally and intellectually with who you want to be as a manager. How about you, Greta? My question is, how does management get showcased as an individual contributor? I think it's fairly easy to do a cover letter, for example,

or to ask for not necessarily a new job, a or a scholarship and to list like all the deliverables but um because i think there's this confidentiality included in being a manager and often the challenges and the wins come from people improving or learning you don't want to single out people and be like i I helped this person from being this to being that. And is it just by saying, oh, I have this many years of experience as a manager? For me, it feels like very little. It's not data based and maybe I'm a bit of a data junkie. But you can show how the people for whom you are responsible have grown, have taken on new responsibilities, have accomplished whatever it is they've accomplished. I know you're not in charge of a task or a project.

You oversee people. But I assume that means that you oversee their growth and their engagement, showing that people haven't left under your management, that somehow your management has enhanced the reputation of your team internally, your organization externally. Does that seem feasible to you? It helps. But then I have another question, which has to do with the speed, right? So delivering a task could be within a sprint of two weeks. But delivering the growth of a person, I don't think that happens in the sprint of two weeks. So there is that lag. I'm enjoying it. I have a great

time. But maybe this is a misconception. People don't understand actually how much energy and effort is put in that one person growing. Yeah. So much of the challenge of people management is that it is very hard to measure. And that's why they have 360 degree feedback, for example, what are people saying about you, the people who come in contact with you? What do your direct reports say about you? But it's very hard to measure how well you've set up someone for success. And you have to be able to find a way to make that part of your job gratifying to yourself in some way. You know when it's not working. You see that indirect feedback. You can tell when people are unhappy. And people can be unhappy for

a million reasons, only one of which is they're not happy with the way Greta's managing them, right? I mean, it's just a constant engagement with the people you're responsible for. Okay. But I don't the people you're responsible for. But I don't think what you're asking for is how you get credit. It's how do you measure success, right? Both. Both. Well, the getting credit, well, and also measuring success, there are tools out there that are designed for that.

And they're not, it's not hard numbers stuff. It's mostly, you know, the soft feedback, the 360-degree feedback. It's looking at how stable your team is, how many of your team have gotten promoted, how much more they're taking on, how engaged they seem if your organization measures engagement somehow. If there's some kind of net promoter score exercise, they will look at your team, they will look at those scores by manager. So that's one way that happens. Okay, so Amy, how would you quantify something like this on your resume? So I think

what you and Greta just shared, that would very well apply for an internal sharing of achievements, probably. But how do you put that on a resume? Say that I've been a manager for X years. And I feel like as you grow up in your professional career, people's resumes start shrinking because there's just so much you do. And I was updating my LinkedIn a few days ago and I was just like, I don't really know what I should put down anymore because I feel like I do everything. So what do you put on your resume? I'm a people manager, but that could mean very many different things for anybody. So this is more about the story you want your resume to tell. If it's a story about progress and learning and taking on more and

more responsibility and delivering on your assignments and expanding your influence. That's how you frame it all, right? You have to figure out what story you want your resume to tell about you. And I've been a manager for 10 years. Okay. Did you get excited by that? I think I have taken on bigger and bigger teams, managing larger and larger budgets. And I'm sorry, Greta, because this is about a project. And this project that I managed, we delivered it on time and under budget. And the results were 20 million extra dollars to our bottom line or something like that. You can show the impact of your work that way. But can you put these numbers in your resume? I mean, does that sound too bold? It's not bold to state the facts. It's kind of self-defeating not to state the facts if

they make your argument for you. There's a big difference between saying, I managed a million dollar budget on a project that exceeded all expectations and give the metrics. There's a big difference between saying that and saying, I am an awesome manager. Trust me. Right? Right. Absolutely. This has been a great conversation. You guys kind of knock me out with the level of self-awareness you've shown and your candor. And I really appreciate your willingness to be so honest with us in this conversation. For me, it's been so great to see other new managers going through similar issues. It's been really nice. And sharing them in a way that maybe it means more people slash women become managers, because I think it's exciting and challenging, but it's difficult to explain how it is that it's exciting and challenging. So it was good to get different points of view for it.

Thank you, everyone. Well, here's to more women managers and more women managers like you. Thank you. Thanks. What stood out to you in your conversation with them? They were, each one of them, so thoughtful about being a manager, and they took the responsibilities of management so seriously, even the couple who were kind of thrown into it. Yeah. Well, and you can imagine being in that role. I mean, I managed people early in my career, very briefly, thankfully. But I remember just thinking, I just don't want

to mess it up. I wasn't thinking, how do I do this? Well, all the questions and thoughtfulness that they brought to the role, I was just like, please don't mess it up. Please don't mess it up. Well, we don't know that they weren't thinking about that. And everyone wants not to screw it up. But that kind of cautious approach guarantees you won't make a difference. Right. Right? Yes.

It means you only show up in the negative when something goes wrong. Yeah. I heard this quote in a podcast. It was about leadership, but you have to be brave today to be confident tomorrow. And I do feel like with managing, you do have to sort of put yourself out there in a way that you're really uncomfortable. You could hear in Tanya and Maddie and Greta's voices the discomfort of want to make is in helping people get where they want to go and helping the organization succeed and just helping people feel really proud of what they're working on with you. It's very uncomfortable, but you also develop a thick skin and the discomfort stops being so discomforting. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. I will say one thing that surprised me about the conversation is that none of the women mentioned conflict or negotiation. Granted, I'm conflict obsessed. Yes. But I was surprised that none of them found that to be an unexpected part of the job, right? Having to give negative feedback. It's constant diplomacy, negotiating what one person needs versus another person needs telling someone they can't have something setting boundary right all of that constantly asking yourself what's a win here right

right yeah but none of them named that as a skill i was a little bit surprised by that yeah i have no idea why and i'm sure if we did the dealing with conflict as a new manager episode. We'd have five hours to air. Our colleague Nikki, who's been on our show before, she manages here at HBR, but she's managed in previous jobs. And she's told me that, and again, I'm conflict obsessed, but she's told me that was the most surprising thing about becoming a manager was just the number of difficult conversations you have to have on a daily basis. Yeah, and learning how to become a soft target, if you know what I mean. No, what do you mean? The number of difficult conversations you have to have on a daily basis. Yeah.

And learning how to become a soft target, if you know what I mean. No. What do you mean? What I mean is when someone comes at you with – and I had this happen in my first couple of weeks as a manager. It was someone who at the same time as I was promoted into the management role and inherited this person, he was taken off of a column that he had written every week. This was not my doing, but it was apparently my fault. You know, I cannot believe that you take over this job and you relieve me of my responsibilities.

And I, you know, I couldn't point a finger and say, hey, I had nothing to do with this. I knew that. Right. But what I had to figure out was how to move from wanting to defend myself to helping this person deal with the pain and disappointment of losing a column. Right. Right. Right? Yeah. Not sure I was even remotely successful, but making that shift was important.

Right. It's a lot about managing your ego, I think. Because I would have been like, oh. It's not my fault. Not my fault. It's not my fault that you lost the job. You should have written better columns. Yeah, exactly.

You know, they were a little boring. Yeah, you can't go there. Yeah. Because that's really not the point. You really spend a lot of time asking yourself, what's really going on here? Mm-hmm. And I love that, what's a win? That's a great question to come back to.

That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. If you're looking to hear more from us about making the transition into management, particularly the identity piece, listen to our season four episode, Seeing Ourselves as Leaders. HBR has published a ton of material on this subject and will include in the show notes a list of classic articles and books. And if you want to go deeper on a variety of management topics and create a plan to practice what you've learned, check out Harvard Manage Mentor. It's an online self-directed learning and skill building resource. Visit hbr.org slash Harvard Manage Mentor to see all the different skills the program can

help you build. Also, HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts. Or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatworkathbr.org.