Women at Work - We Deserve Better Than “Attagirl”

Episode Date: October 9, 2018

Both male and female managers tend to give women low-quality feedback. And when we don’t hear how we’re really doing at work and what we can do to improve — and men do — we’re put at a disadvantage. We talk about how to get high-quality feedback that is direct, specific, and focused on behavior we can change. Guests: Robin Ely and Ella Bell Smith.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at Work. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Getting productive feedback about how we're doing at work is vital to making progress in our careers. But managers often don't give women the most useful information. One study of performance reviews showed that men tended to get specific feedback. Women, on the other hand, were more likely to get vague feedback. Men were much likelier to hear about how they were meeting their business goals. Women, how they were communicating.

This episode, we're talking about what we can do to get the feedback we need to succeed. And we'll start with a research roundup. Robin Ely is a professor at Harvard Business School and the faculty chair of the HBS Gender Initiative. She's an expert in how women are treated at work. And I went to her house to talk to her about the gender gap in feedback. Thanks for having us at your home. Sure. Robin, what does the research tell us

about the type of feedback women get at work? Well, there's actually quite a lot of research on this question. And what most of it shows is that women tend to get more positive feedback relative to men, but the positive feedback tends to be vague. So women are told, for example, that they're doing a good job, you know, you had a great year, but the feedback isn't specific about what they've done that was so great. You know, they're not hearing about what exactly is the positive impact that they've had on business outcomes. Also, the praise doesn't seem to translate to any objective outcomes, like numerical ratings. So there was a study in a law firm, actually,

that was done by Joan Williams and some of her colleagues. And what they found is that in the narrative comments, so there's narrative comments and numerical ratings, and in the narrative comments, women are likely to be praised, but then they're rated more poorly than men when they're on the objective ratings. And the objective ratings is what's considered key for making partner. I actually suspect that what happens with these things is that the objective ratings is what's considered key for making partner. I actually suspect that what happens with these things is more developmental. So even if they're critical, they're really specific about what he needs to do in order to improve. Whereas again, women are more likely to be praised. And then that praise doesn't translate into objective ratings. The other thing that's interesting that a couple of studies have shown is that when they do get specific negative feedback, it tends to be a criticism of their style. Basically, some version of you have sharp elbows, you're too aggressive,

but that's actually very hard to act on. It's feedback about how you are, as opposed to, you know, exactly what you're doing and what you need to change and how you can improve. So why does this matter? Like, what are the consequences for women when managers are not giving them the feedback that they need to improve? So every employee deserves direct, specific behavioral feedback. All employees need that in order to develop and advance, reach their full potential, thrive, you know, be successful in their organization. So if women are not getting that kind of feedback, then they're less likely to thrive, they're less likely to advance, they're not going to be developed.

Mm-hmm. So I'd love to get a sense of what this sounds like, the difference in feedback that men and women get. So I'm a woman, how do you think this interview is going right now? Okay, so if I were to respond to that in a way that's consistent with what the research shows, I would say, I think you're doing a great job. And I would say, thank you. Not really know what else to push on or what else to ask you about. You know, I'd say, I guess I'm doing a great job. I wouldn't know if there's anything I should change or not. I would kind of just keep going.

So what if I was a man? Okay, so I would probably say to you, I think the interview is going well. I think that the questions that you're asking are, you know, the right questions to ask to elicit the kind of information I think you're interested in getting in this interview. You know, but if you could ask me for some more examples, that might really drive home the points I think you're trying to make. And so that would be really helpful. So that latter piece, that's what developmental feedback looks like. It's very specific. I'm telling you behaviorally what you could do to improve and why.

Mm-hmm. So what can managers do differently then to correct this discrepancy and to fix this problem? I think the first thing is to become aware of it and to really be vigilant about the way one interacts with one's, especially subordinates. These are things that people do not intentionally. I mean, this is another kind of form or manifestation of implicit bias. The dynamic really underlying it is something that a colleague of mine, Peter Glick, and his colleagues have called benevolent sexism.

And so this is a form of sexism. It's in contrast to hostile sexism, which is how we usually think about sexism. You know, there's some kind of hostile work environment around them. But benevolent sexism is actually more insidious, acting on this belief that women need to be protected, placing women on a pedestal. And this is a form of protection. People think they're protecting women. I think what the research suggests is that underneath it is it's really a form of making sure that women stay in their place. As a manager, and you know, you're responsible for other people's development, and you're responsible for, you know, developing the talent your company needs in order to perform well, when you start to think, oh, she's, you know, X, but, and it's a stereotype. Once you, once you kind of get that stereotype,

you have some narrative, some explanation about why a woman is doing what she's doing, or quite frankly, why a man is doing what he's doing. And you've got this kind of stereotype tape going on in your head. That's when you stop. Can you give us an example of that stereotype tape playing in people's heads? Yeah. So it's, you know, I just, I don't think that she is partner material because she just lacks confidence. So, hmm, well, that's a stereotype. Is that really true? If she's behaving in a way that looks like she's lacking confidence, why might that be? And what might I even be doing to contribute to that? And here is where we get to feedback. Maybe she lacks confidence because

she's not getting really good, actionable, developmental feedback. Am I giving her that? And, you know, sort of looking at, well, what have been my most recent interactions with her? What kind of feedback have I given her any feedback? What about the formal, you know, usually these formal performance appraisal systems? Let me go take a look at that. In fact, let me go take a look and see whether there are systematic differences in the language I'm using as I am, you know, offering up these sort of narrative evaluations of the men and women who are my direct reports. And let me look at the objective ratings.

So then after that, after questioning your thinking, evaluating your own behavior, then what's next? So the next thing is to change your behavior. And there's maybe two pieces to that with respect to feedback. One is that there are real technical skills involved in giving feedback. I mean, you know, we teach it at Harvard Business School, and feedback should be direct, specific, and behavioral. And so, you know, really getting a handle on what does quality, high-quality feedback look like and getting some practice in actually delivering that. I think the second thing is a little bit deeper,

goes to this other point we were talking about what's underneath that, is to really get a handle on what is it about yourself that is making it hard for you to do that. And I think one of the things that makes it hard, look, feedback is hard. It's especially hard to give critical feedback to anybody, but it seems to be harder to give it to women. So really doing an assessment of, you know, again, your own being self-aware, what are your fears in giving direct feedback? And if it comes up in your head, well, I don't want to be mean. I don't want to hurt her feelings. Then, you know, you can, again, it's stopping yourself and saying, okay, well, that's really about me.

That's not really about her. I need to get in touch with, like, what would it take for me to get over that fear? What do I think would happen if I were mean? And then sort of thinking about what's the difference between being mean and actually being thoughtful and generous, sort of redefining what is what does it mean to give critical feedback? It's actually a gift. And it's a skill. You know, if you're a manager, and you treat it that way with every employee, you probably won't see systematic differences arising, at least not from, you know, the kinds of differences that arise from not getting good feedback. Robin, thank you for having us over. Thank you for clarifying all of these myths about feedback and what women need. This has been really helpful.

You're very welcome. Thanks for coming. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey, listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like,

should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. With Robin's research insights in mind,

we wanted to talk more about how to get specific feedback that's tied to outcomes. The type of feedback that gives us a clear sense of how we're performing and what we need to do to advance. Something that I can take and build on. Something that I can do. That's Ella Bell-Smith. She's a professor at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. Ella, thank you so much for being with us today. You're welcome. What in your career has convinced you that getting useful feedback is important? I think feedback is a gift, first of all. And any time that I've gotten feedback, particularly hard feedback that is hard for me to hear, if I can apply it, and I usually try, it's made me better.

It's made my performance better. It's made my attitude better. It has made me more effective at what I do. I think there are several reasons for that, but the people that gave it to me, I trusted. I had a relationship with. So I knew that they were supportive about my development, about my growth, about me being good. So I trusted those individuals and that made the world of difference. So what kind of prep should we be doing before we approach someone to ask them for feedback? Think a little bit about when is the appropriate time. For me, the appropriate times, and there are several, I think. Number one, during a performance review.

That's important to be real clear about what you want, what you need, what kind of development are you looking for. After a major project, it's critical to be able to ask the person that was responsible, the team leader, the manager, particularly if you're the subordinate, what worked? Start with what works. I always like to start with what's working, what's working, what could have I done more of to make me more of value to the team, to make me more of value to the project, to make me better, to make me more effective. The other thing is, I'm not sure that I just pop into my manager's office and say, I'm looking for feedback. I think you need to be real clear about what you're looking for feedback for. And, you know, you and your manager should have had a conversation during the performance review about what your goals are for that next performance period so that you can check in periodically with your manager and say, okay, how am I doing?

That might be face to face. That might be over a cup of coffee. It depends on, you know, when you think is the best time. Timing is everything. When you think it's the best time for your manager. It's not when he or she is busy at work or has a major project going on. It's not when there's a crisis in the organization. It's not when your manager is distracted.

You really want to have some quality time. It doesn't have to be quantity, but it does need to be some, I believe, some solid quality time. Ella, what should we be doing during the conversation to make sure we're getting the best feedback? You need to be listening. I always tell people body language speaks volumes. So if you're one of these people that are all closed up and you're folded and your legs are crossed and your arms are crossed, nah, because you're basically saying to the individual giving you feedback, I'm not too interested. So you want to be open. You want to relax. Remember to breathe. And that hopefully they're going to give you something that you can

use and you can build upon. You want to ask, can I take notes? It's all right to say, do you mind if I take notes? Because I want to make sure that when our conversation is over, that I can go back and figure out how am I going to implement some of this? What are some steps I want to do? And you want to be specific on that note that you're asking, give me some specific steps that you would suggest. Those three things, listening, paying attention to your body language, taking notes, and don't be afraid to ask questions. If your manager is telling you, giving you information that, you know, is confusing you, say, well, wait a minute, you know, do you mind if I clarify? Because I'm a little confused.

It's all right to do that. Specifically, though, so if you get negative feedback, and I'm not going to call it constructive in this case, if it's like trim your sharp elbows or stop being quite so aggressive, how do you respond to vague feedback like that that isn't truly constructive? Well, if you're someone like me, I have to remind myself, don't get defensive, number one. I've got to make sure that I'm grounded enough so when I get negative feedback, I don't disappear on the individual. I don't respond too quickly and that I'm keeping my sharp elbows down and not saying, well, what do you mean by that? Can you give me an example when I did that? What was the impact that you saw? How often have you seen me do that? Questions like that. It's not that I'm pushing back on what you're telling me. I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're telling me. And how could I have done that better? If you were in that situation, how might you have handled it?

Remember that feedback is a developmental process, number one. And it's also an interactive process. If you're just being negative, then that's going to shut me down. Can I share a personal story on that? Of course. I've got two personal examples of that. I remember as an academic, which is a little bit different than the corporate world, but I think it still applies.

I remember early on in my career, and I was meeting with my manager, and he told me, well, your writing is really bad bad and you need to learn to use the King's English. Well, as an African-American woman, that just hit me the wrong way. And I was young and I was like, what do you mean by the King's English? In other words, you know, what are you explaining? What are you trying to tell me? It pressed a racial trigger in me. So I really stopped listening to anything he had to say. After that, nothing he said was of value to me, whether it was good or bad.

Because I thought that whatever he was telling me was tainted by his perception of me as an African-American woman. Okay, so that's one example. The second example is this person's authority. He was using his authority the wrong way with me. One of the senior faculty members, I was still a junior, came in and said, you know, I want to give you some feedback. And he wanted to stand. So he was standing, I stood. He was like, no, no, no, you sit down. And I was like, no, no, know, I want to give you some feedback. And he wanted to stand. So he was standing, I stood. He was like, no, no, no, you sit down. And I was like, no, no, no, I'll stand.

You were using your authority in a way that was trying to exert your power over my power and influencing me in a way that you were reprimanding me like I was a child. Neither were constructive, neither was helpful, and neither was something that I could do anything about immediately. So I think it's important to remember that it's an interactive process. So if the person's giving me feedback, it's also open, it's also listening to me, it's giving me eye contact, is being respectful, is not pushing my buttons. Yes, be direct. I don't need, oh, you're just wonderful. And let me give you a pat on the

back. And no, that's not what I'm seeking. But I am seeking an interaction that even though I'm hearing something I don't like, I'm feeling respected. I'm feeling heard. And I'm hearing that you're interested in my development. What advice would you give then to someone if you heard that story? You know, if they had an experience of getting that kind of negative feedback, what would you tell them? I always tell particularly women of color, seek multiple sources for your feedback. Don't depend on one person to give you feedback. Your sources of feedback should be a constellation of allies, people you work with, as well as your managers.

So that you're getting a clear view of your performance. You're getting, hopefully, a more objective opinion. When you get negative feedback, be clear. I'm not sure what I can do with that. So I'd appreciate if you could give me some examples. I'd appreciate if you could look at my writing and show me exactly when and where I'm not using the King's English. You know, I'd appreciate if you could look at my writing and show me exactly when and where I'm not using the King's English. You know, I'd appreciate if we could sit down and have a conversation about this rather than me feeling like you're punishing me. Don't say it in a defensive way, but be clear and be direct about what's happening with you. And if you can't get that from the individual, then you need to seek out other options, other sources, other people to get feedback. I'm not suggesting that you write that person off. What I'm suggesting is that you have multiple sources and then afterwards, maybe a month later, go back to that individual and say, you know, when you said that

to me, that really threw me and I might not have responded the right way. So when you get a second, I'd like to have an opportunity for us to come back to that conversation and see how we can reframe it so that I can take advantage of what you're telling me. If you still get resistance, it's time for you to go to HR and say, I'm not getting the kind of feedback I need to get. And I'm trying. What if you're getting vague feedback, but it's positive, like you're doing a great job, or you're having a really good year? That's not super helpful. So what do you say to that? How can you get more specific feedback? The old attagirl? Oh, you're so great. Yeah, I'm so great. That's really great. But can you be

specific? What am I doing that's great? Give me again, I always want to ask for examples. When did I do it? So I can do more of it. I need to be aware of what it is so I can do more of it. Hmm. Too often, I see women, when they get the great, okay, I'm great, I'm gone. No, you're not gone. You haven't done your homework. Let's go back to the performance review. You've set some clear, you should have set some clear goals and some objectives for yourself that year. That's on you. That's doing your homework. This is what I want to do. This is what I want to achieve. This is what I want to bring to the table. So when you come back to that annual review, you come in with your list. Okay, this is what we set

out. Now, give me some specifics around each of this. And at a girl is not the right response. So one tendency that I have when I get that sort of at a girl is I just minimize that praise and I focus on the negative. And I've seen this tendency in other women like, yeah, yeah, you're giving me the praise, but just hurry up and get to like the real stuff. What are the effects of doing that, though? I trust that's not necessarily a healthy thing to do. You're self-sabotaging yourself. Feedback and getting feedback and understanding feedback is connected to self-worth. So if I just want to get out of that room and I've settled for that attagirl, then I've missed an opportunity to grow. I have to own that. Yes, you do have to educate

your managers because managers, research shows managers are not good at giving feedback, period. But the reality of it is you need to be prepared and you need to realize that this is a chance for growth. This is a chance for learning. It is also a chance to build relationship. I had a dear friend who was CFO at a Fortune 500 company. And he really wanted to build relationships, particularly with the women of color in his company. So there was one woman and she was just off the chain. She was fantastic. She was doing all the right things. And he just wanted to

talk with her, build the relationship with her, You know, learn a little bit about her. So when he scheduled the meeting, she called me and she was like, what does he want to see me? What have I done wrong? Oh, I'm so scared. And I'm like, child, please. The man just wants to get to know you. I think we're so fearful that we're doing something wrong because our society has such a way of saying that women are never good enough, we're never smart enough, we're never bright enough. We've got to work three times as hard, particularly if you're a woman of color. So you come in thinking, well, I can't be doing anything right. That's a self-worth question. And I always tell women, if a manager wants to get to know you, and particularly if a senior executive wants to get to know you, build on that opportunity.

Because they're checking you out to see, are you the right one that he wants to sponsor one day? What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash womenatwork. So often men are afraid to give women negative feedback because they're afraid that we can't take it, we'll get too emotional. What do you say to that? I think for Latina and African-American women, they're scared to give feedback because they're afraid of being accused of being racist.

They haven't had a lot of interaction with women who look like me. So I think there are different ways that white men handle depending on who's in front of them. Regardless of kind of the hang-up of the manager, whether he is sort of worried about protecting someone's feelings or worried about looking racist or being racist, as a manager, that person has a responsibility to get over themselves and give the person in front of them the specific useful feedback they need to grow. So how can managers do that? I think they need to be very aware of what their assumptions are going in. They need

to be very clear about their interactions. I think managers signal if they're really interested in an individual, if they really want an individual to grow. And it is the manager's responsibility to develop individuals. I remember at one academic institution, I got my feedback for the year in the parking lot. All my colleagues got feedback in their offices. When I asked him why I was getting my feedback three months late in the parking lot, he said, well, I stopped by your office. You weren't at your desk.

Whoa. Okay. Not to mention that was an EEOC violation. All right, let's get technical here for a minute. It told me that I needed to have alternate sources. It told me how I was valued. It told me how I was seen. It told me that, well, if I want to stay here, I'm taking a chance because I'm not sure that my career can really develop, evolve and grow in this institution. So the thing is also here's another point that we haven't talked about. If you're not getting the kind of feedback that you think you should be getting and that you are seeking and that you are being bold enough and confident enough to ask for, then the next question becomes, how long are you going to put up with that?

Because research shows that the way African-American and Hispanic women advance is basically leaving companies. Because they get stuck. So, I mean, it's just something to think about. Yeah. I want to loop this back to what you were saying about the importance of building relationships. Because I think if you are one of a handful of women in a male-dominated environment or one of only one or two people of color in an overwhelmingly white environment, how do you build those trusting relationships with other resources who can give you feedback if your direct manager isn't the person? That's a great question. I always look for people who are educable. Who has shown an interest in me? Not just, hi, how are you? But who has shown a genuine interest in me? Who is interested in helping me. I remember when I first went to Tuck, the associate dean

met me outside. I don't know how he knew I was pulling up in my car, but he was waiting on the steps for me. And there was an important event, convocation, but my truck was coming with all my belongings. So I was getting ready to move in and I clearly was not dressed for a convocation. He looked at me, he said, well, you better go change. And I looked at him and I said, well, I'm not going to convocation. The movers are coming. He said, you are going to convocation.? I almost went into that. Who do you? And I'm from New York City. So it was like the head, you know, snapping. Who do you think you are? And then I stopped a moment and I said, okay. I went and changed.

I went to convocation. That was someone that I took a chance on. And it was the best chance I've ever, ever taken. He was a great advocate for me. But he also told me when, you know, you could have done so and so better. Okay, yeah, you're right. But I could learn we could push back on each other. That was so important. It taught me a couple of things, even though I was late in my career. Don't be afraid of someone who is direct with you and giving you feedback that is probably going to help you navigate the company. Because what he was telling me was, look, if you're going to be successful, and I was the first African-American woman on track there.

So it was like, if you're going to be successful, this is what you need to do. Now, I might not like what you're telling me, but you are telling me how to navigate. So if you're willing to take the time to tell me this is what you need to do to be successful here, and I'm going to at least try it, then that's the person that I want to write a handwritten note to and say, thank you. Yeah. Well, Robin talked about how feedback is a skill. You know, it should be direct, specific, behavioral, and clear about the impact that your behavior has on others. And that's something that you have to learn. You know, you have to practice. How can we get better at this skill? How can we practice giving feedback? I think you start with your allies and you actually role play. I can think of a time when a female that I was working with

around leadership, she was going in for a major role in a different company. And what she did, she got her support team on the phone. And they actually did a role play on the phone. Here are the questions that you'll probably be asked, how are you going to respond? And they gave her feedback on each one. What a marvelous learning opportunity for everybody involved. By the way, she got the job. So I just don't want to look for my managers. I want to look for my allies, colleagues that I've worked with. You know, well, what did you think? How did I do? What could I have done better? What impact did I have on you? And I want to ask past managers, you know, when you worked with me, what did you see? How could I have done it? What was I doing well? Why do we always have to start with, you know, well, what was my weak spot?

Because that would shut you down anyway. So, Ella, you know, you've gotten all this feedback. What should you do after you've gotten it? Do you run off and take notes? What do you do to make sure you absorb it and act on it? I think you sit down and you process. It's very hard to make sense of all this information that you're getting about you. So if I've taken notes, and I like to take notes, I like to tell a person, you know, I want to take some notes here,

if you don't mind. I'd like to go back in my office, even go home, have a cup of tea, have a cup of coffee, whatever. And I want to sit down and read over my notes. I want to rethink the conversation. And then I want to come up with maybe three things that I want to do to respond to that feedback. Those things that I want to do more of. Those things that I might need to, you know, let go of a little bit. And those things that I'm going to dare to do some new things I'm going to try, I'm going to take some risks. And here are the resources I'm going to need. Because we want

people to change behaviorally. But that's very hard to do if you don't have support, and if you don't have resources. So part of my resources might be taking a course. Part of my resources might be doing a podcast. Part of my resources might be reading a book. Part of my resources might be taking a workshop. All right. And then my support, well, I'm going to look for my allies that can tell me, well, yeah, that would be really hard for you to do because you know you're uncomfortable speaking out. If I'm introverted, then I might want to say, you know, I'm going to read Quiet by Susan Cain, but then I'm going to find a way to use my voice at selective moments. I don't

want to be uncomfortable, but I need to be a little bit uncomfortable here. So I'm going to ask my support team, my allies, managers that I might have had in the past. I might even ask a professor that I've had, you know, help me push, you know, call me up sometimes and ask me where, you know, have I done it? Did I take that step? What was the result? I might ask my mentor. You know, call me up sometimes and ask me where, you know, have I done it? Did I take that step? What was the result? I might ask my mentor. You know, I'm going to try. I'm a little nervous.

But, you know, I need you when I try to fall off and not do it anymore. I need you to tell me get back up and keep doing it. Ella, thank you so much for joining us today. You're so welcome. I had it. Did you have a good time? I had a blast. Let's do this again.

We had a fantastic time. We had a great time. Something Ella kept emphasizing is ask for specific examples. We get vague feedback all the time. For it to be helpful, whether we're getting constructive negative feedback or positive feedback, we want to ask for examples. But I think that's harder to do than it sounds, especially when you're asking for positive examples. Like if someone is telling me I did a great job, it would be very hard for me to say, can you tell me specifically like what I did that was so great? And speak into the microphone.

So what do you, how do you make that sound less self-serving? I would say, you know what? I'm really so happy to hear that, but I can't even think of an example of a time that I did that. Help me. That's good. Yes, I think that is a great lead in. I think if the praise is like, you had a great year. You're really doing excellent work. That is so vague. It's not helpful at all. So I think you'd start with what Amy said.

Thank you so much. I'm so relieved to hear that. I'm so glad to hear that. I want to make sure next year is even better. Are there some specific things you think I should focus on? Or were there specific projects that you want to see me continue? And you kind of guide the person that way. That's helpful. The question Ella asked that stuck with me that I think Robin also mentioned was talking about the impact on other people. And I know that's something that always has helped me accept feedback more. If someone comes and says, this is feedback I got earlier in my career, you're too stressed out. Well, whatever, that's my own issue.

But if someone comes and says to me, you know, Sarah, you really show your stress and the impact on the team is to stress out everyone else. I'm like, oh, shoot. Well, I can change that if it's affecting other people. So I think making that connection clear, really helpful. You know, it's so interesting because a lot of times,

especially when I'm dealing with younger people and women, a lot of feedback is about demonstrating to them that they have impact on the world around them, that they're not sitting alone, isolated. I mean, helping people assume their place in the organism of this business, of this office, you know, is part of helping a new employee become part of the team, right? Something that stuck with me talking to Ella was that when you get feedback, we focused on what to do when you get negative feedback, but I think it applies to positive feedback too, like not to respond right away or not feel like you have to react immediately you know you can take a few seconds to pause because I think I do this thing where if I'm getting constructive feedback I'll just agree right away and become a little more deferential and just say

oh yeah good point I see that I do these things myself but then like I'll go back to my desk and think about it that night and be like wait no there are all these other things I don't completely agree with it and then it'll be like a personal battle for me to about desk and think about it that night and be like, wait, no, there are all these other things. I don't completely agree with it. And then it'll be like a personal battle for me to, about whether I should bring it up again or how to move forward with it basically. So I liked the advice to take time to process something, think about what you agree with, maybe what you want further information about, and that might be more useful to you. The genuine curiosity there is so important too. Like having the tone of voice that's curious and not defensive. But also when I think about times that that approach has worked for me, it's because I literally didn't understand the feedback

and I really had to be like, it wasn't an act. It was like, tell me more about what you're saying because I'm having, I really want to make sure I get this right. Yeah. That worked. And that's a really poignant thing to hear when you're giving feedback. When someone says, I really want to get this right, it really allows you to be, as the person giving feedback, as the manager, to be completely generous. Because giving negative feedback is not easy either. Now, it's definitely harder to get it than it is to give. I don't care what anyone says. is not easy either. Now, it's definitely harder to get it than it is to give. I don't care what anyone says,

but you really want to get past the atmospherics and down to the real point of this conversation. That's our show. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Kersey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buchholz. Maureen Hoke is our supervising editor. We get production help from Rob Eckhart and Isis Madrid.

We are halfway through season two. We'd like your feedback about what we're doing, the show, the discussion guides, the online group, all of it. Email us at womenatworkathbr.org. And if you haven't yet checked out the discussion guides or joined our online group, please do. There are links to them in our episode notes and on our website. Thanks for listening. We could even just say, like, just search for HBR Women at Work podcast. On Google? On your favorite browsing platform. Wherever you search for information online. If you haven't yet checked out the discussion guides or joined the online group, what's keeping you?

Why not? Search for us wherever you search for women. Swipe right. Oh my God. Right's the right way, right?