Women at Work - When Your Career Is Suddenly on Hold

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

We talk about the different professional setbacks women are facing because of the coronavirus crisis and offer advice for dealing with a promotion, project, career move, or entrepreneurial endeavor on hold or lost forever. Guests: Alexandra Kalev and Daisy Auger-Domínguez.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash womenatwork. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. As we get deeper into the coronavirus crisis and organizations adjust their financial projections, leaders are looking to cut budgets and more companies are laying off workers. As a result, many women are losing their jobs. Even if you're still employed, your promotion or raise may have been put on hold,

or you may have lost momentum on that new hire you'd been advocating for. Or perhaps your plans for building your own business have gone sideways. Right now, we're grieving the loss of a lot of things. And that includes the progress we were making toward pay equity and professional advancement before the pandemic put so much on pause. But a pause is not forever. And later in the show, we'll talk about strategies for dealing with a career setback and moving forward. First, though, we're going to hear from two women whose careers have been interrupted by the coronavirus crisis. They'll tell us how they're managing.

My name is Anne Tanzer. I live just outside of London. I have two daughters who are close to nine and seven. At the end of 2019, Anne left corporate life behind. She was ready to start the next phase of her career as a financial coach focused on advising women. So January and February was great. Went as planned. I passed the first set of exams that I needed. You know, at the end of February, everything was great. And then March hit.

I've kind of gone into mode of being full-time homeschool teacher, being the housewife, doing all the cooking and trying to keep my children from killing each other or shouting too much and make sure that they're getting things done. Those first couple of weeks completely threw me because I was used to having a balanced marriage where we both were working full time and trying to, you know, be equal in the home in terms of what we were doing in the home. And that just completely upended. And here I went from having that balance, having that strong career as a executive, as a woman, the kind of third generation full-time working mother in my family. And so I just felt like I didn't quite know who I was anymore. And was I living up to my potential?

You know, all of my plans for what this new career looks like have been put on hold. I don't think they're killed. They're just paused, right, and pushed back a little bit. I'll be lucky if I'm up and running with any clients by the end of the year, which starts to get a bit scary financially. But I'm definitely feeling this pressure of, I want to be doing more. My brain needs to be doing more.

I want to be contributing more to society beyond the four walls of the house that I'm in all the time. But it's not very clear what the path to doing that looks like right now or when we're going to get there. And so I'm finding that difficult. Up until recently, Kelly Patterson was the head of marketing at a startup in New York City. Soon after she'd begun working from home, the company called to say that she and her team were being laid off. And I think that the first shock of it was, if I didn't have this job, then who was I? And being laid off, I think that I will see this as a blessing in disguise because it was a pivotal moment that made me sort of reassess that I have to sort of give myself that space to not just think of myself

by the title I might have gained on or the accomplishments I might have in a work environment, but also like who I am as a person as well. I love to read and it's now given me the space and time. I'm not just reading on the train going into the city to go to work, but I'm actually setting aside at least an hour a day where I can actually read again. The funniest thing I've sort of realized is sort of how funny my kids are and how I recognize that I was rushing home to try to be here to put them to bed. But then I was seeing them twinkle, twinkle and composing an email in my head. So I think that I have definitely put forth the effort and have now realized I am much more present.

And I think that that has made a world of difference. And I'm grateful that I sort of had that realization. We were in the process of looking to buy a house. And so I think that I feel very responsible for the fact that we might not be able to do that now. And I feel guilty that my kids don't have a yard yet. I think that, you know, a lot of this feels like it's my fault, even though my rational brain knows it's not my fault. As a result of my being laid off, we had to let our nanny go, who was with us for three years. And I feel guilty that now she's dealing with this during this global pandemic. And I am worried. I'm worried. We have saved, which is great. But I think that in terms of planning, you know, we're sort of in maintenance mode versus moving ahead with a lot of the things that we wanted to do. It doesn't feel right now like there's a lot of possibilities out there. In the last four weeks, I've had a lot of first conversations that felt promising when I hung up the phone. But then I haven't heard anything about a second conversation.

You can only have so many first interviews that don't go anywhere where you don't start to sort of question yourself. Like, how am I supposed to still feel confident when I start to take these calls, which seem to be drying up at this point, but like nothing's happening. That was Kelly Patterson. And earlier you heard from Ann Tanzer. Thank you both for sharing your thoughts with us. I found their stories to be quite heartbreaking. I mean, they're going through something that many, many women are going through. And yet you can hear how personal and emotional this is for them. Yeah. And the struggle. I mean, I was really moved by their, both of them were talking about

trying to keep it all together and fighting these feelings of guilt and responsibility and feeling so helpless in the face of this overwhelming crisis. That just moved me. Yeah. I mean, especially I think about Kelly being laid off at this moment. She's not alone, but what does this mean for her career and for the careers of other women who've been laid off? We know that it's happening to women a lot. And I often wonder, is it going to be harder and take longer for these women to recover from these layoffs from unemployment than it will be for men? when I got on a call with Alexandra Kalev, who's a sociology professor at Tel Aviv University, she told me that she expects women's careers to suffer disproportionately during this crisis. Here's our conversation. Alexandra, thank you for speaking with me today.

Thank you so much for having me. This is so important. And oh my gosh, I love the sound of the birds in the background. Yeah, they make me feel in nature, even though I'm in the middle of the city. You've written that you think women are going to be among the hardest hit during this crisis. Why do you say that? Well, you know, many predicted that the pandemic will hit women at work harder. And at this point, we have enough data to understand that this is the case. It's not just a prediction.

And this is a very special recession in this way. In the Great Recession in 07 and 08, women were not hit the hardest because the industries that were hit then were mostly male-dominated industries. So you see how segregation in the labor market affects who get hit in economic crisis. But here today, women are overrepresented in industries that have the highest layoff rates, retail, dining, hotels, tourism. For example, 70% of the waiters and waitresses are women, or 77% of the clothing and shoe stores, salespeople and cashier are women.

64% of the hotel and motel desk clerk, and of course, 88% of the maid and housekeepers in hotels and other traveler accommodation. In some industries, most of these are women of color that are losing these jobs now. Many of these jobs are low-paid jobs, and they usually don't provide the safety net that people need now, such as paid leave, employer-sponsored insurance, health insurance, and child care. The data you cited were for the U.S.

Is that also true globally? Yes, definitely. It's also true globally. Most of these industries are global industries, tourism industry especially. But the job segregation pattern where women entered the labor market through the service industries,

which are the low-paid industries, are similar in other countries. And definitely women are getting hit harder in other countries as well. But also in industries that are male-dominated, that are also experiencing layoffs now because of shrinking business, high-tech or the financial industries. In these industries as well, women are more likely to be first on the layoff list just because they often have the least tenure and they often are positioned in the jobs that are regarded as less essential or in the least profitable sites of the company, least profitable branches of the bank,

for example. So this is how the financial industry, for example, in the previous recession, lost most of its gender diversity. More women lost jobs in the financial industry in the previous recession than men, simply because they were in the least profitable, lower-ranked jobs. So what do you think the effect of all these layoffs hitting women so hard is going to be on their professional advancement? So job loss is hard for everyone, obviously, but recovering from job loss tends to be harder and takes longer for disadvantaged groups such as women. We know from the previous recession that women tend to spend more time looking for new jobs. And when they find new jobs, these jobs tend to have lower pay than the jobs that they left. So if you lay off women disproportionately, you don't just

hurt them now, you also, indeed, as you say, hurt their professional advancement. So if we take the Great Recession of the previous decade as a telling example, women saw a very slow recovery. Even after the recession, men recovered pretty fast. Starting in 2009, men's unemployment rates started to go down. Women's unemployment rates started to go down only two years later, and only in 2012 they were even to men. So it takes women longer time to find a job after a recession. And it's not only because of the industry distribution. Women are simply less likely to be hired back. The gender stereotypes are still very prominent in hiring decisions and in promotion decisions. Stereotypes about women and mothers' split commitment between the workplace and their home

usually reduce their chances in hiring. So women that are looking for jobs have lower chances to get these jobs, especially when we're talking about good jobs, not low-paying service jobs. So if I am a manager and I have to administer layoffs, what should I be thinking about to, you know, rectify the situation to make sure that women and minorities aren't hit disproportionately hard? You know, that's a great question. Because executives and managers doing layoffs usually are not aware of the diversity implications of their decisions. When I talk to executives and I ask them, was diversity a consideration in your decisions? They answer, not at all. This is a strictly business decision. It's all about the job

function. Answers like that that show that they have like two brains the diversity brain and the layoff brain and they don't connect the dots one thing that is clear from my research is that when managers keep track of their lists no group is disproportionately affected and indeed that's related to the issue of awareness when managers become aware of the fact that they are going to lose disproportionately the women and minorities they can take steps and they do take steps to avoid that. So experts advise managers to simply disperse reductions across the board. And again, you can do that only if you look at the lists. In the 2011 layoffs of Nokia, they used selection committees rather than individual managers making the layoff decisions exactly to make sure that the layoff list don't

suffer from this kind of blind spots that local managers have. Because local managers also don't see the big picture. And selection committees or executives can see the big picture and make sure that, again, no group is being disproportionately hurt. Another important thing that I found in my research is that when managers actually think about talent and not about jobs, they end up keeping their highest performers and their diversity. So they don't hurt any group disproportionately. Think about keeping people for what they can contribute, not for their current job. And if you think about it, until very recently,

companies were struggling to find workers because unemployment was very low. So one thing to consider is maybe try to shrink your layoff lists. Many experts now say that, in fact, recession and this recession especially can be a good time to innovate and to upskill your workers. The relative cost now is lower because you don't have to take them out of their jobs because the business is lower. And the advantage of not needing to hire new workers post-recession and keeping your workers' knowledge and loyalty are obviously priceless. Alexandra, thanks so much for joining us today. This was a really enlightening conversation.

Thank you so much for having me. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED

Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. Amy B., it was upsetting, although not, I guess, particularly surprising that women are often the first on the layoff list right now. Yeah, it's really upsetting. And as you say, not at all surprising. And that's why Alexandra and I really focused on how managers can avoid letting that happen, how they can make sure that layoffs do not hit women disproportionately.

Yeah. I mean, at the same time, we want to think about women on the other end of those conversations, the ones whose careers are being set back. And that's what I got into with Daisy Oje-Dominguez. She is a consultant and advisor to executives on inclusive leadership. She's been doing that for years, but she actually recently got a new job going in-house. So we talked about making a career move like that during this crisis. We also talked about how to deal with the emotions that come up after a setback, thinking through what to do next, and getting the support you need so you can move forward. Let's listen. Daisy, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Amy. So you are a consultant and speaker currently, and because of this crisis, I understand that business took a big hit. How have you been coping? I think it was like many of my colleagues in the speaking circuit. Within a week or two, we pretty much lost our entire speaking business for the year. I think it started the first couple of days with April being canceled May and within two weeks, all of it was canceled. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's not fun to have all that work evaporate. Not at all. It's unnerving, but part of it was also recognizing, well, listen, I'm in a very similar situation to so many of us. There's not much I can control at

this moment. So let me take a beat and see what happens and how can I respond creatively, right? And thankfully for me, I had consultancies on retainer that I knew were going to sustain me through at least August of this year. And so that gave me a little peace of mind of, well, I've got the mortgage paid through then, at least. And speaking, let's see how I can creatively respond to that. Yeah. But you had to lay some people off. Is that right? Well, I had to lay off my support staff. And when I say support staff, I'm really a consultancy of one. And I have an admin and a social media coordinator that I've hired through Squared Away, which is an amazing organization of military wives. And they're all virtual assistants. But I also had to think about

and weigh in, well, I'm letting go of that staff. But then there's other staff that we have, if you think about it, that help us sustain our lives. So for example, my cleaning lady, she's not coming, but she I haven't fired. I'm still sending her, I'm Venmoing her cash because I know that she's in a far more precarious situation than others. I have had supporting folks helping me sustain my life for a long time, which is I think what's happening to a lot of us, that it's shining a bright light on all of the support that allows us to sustain and build the careers that we've been trying to for so long. I had to take stock of all of that and then think about what could I prioritize. And for me, prioritizing was from an equity perspective, who's going to be most hard hit and how can I support them through this?

I mean, still, it's not fun to be the bear bad news. When I think about, you know, your social media person or your virtual assistant, how did you deal with the emotions of having to have those tough conversations? Well, first of all, I scheduled the conversations in person and video, because it wasn't something I was going to send over email. And I've been an HR executive for a long time. So I've sadly had to lay off people in the past. And so, you know, I leaned on what I knew of, you know, how do I deliver something as fairly and as transparently as possible in as quick enough time, because I'm not going to delay this for you. So here's the news. Here's the reason why. And here's what I'm doing to try and support you.

I'm going to give you an extra month pay to help you as you hopefully, you know, are able to onboard a new client. So it was thinking about both the heart and the operational pieces of that and delivering it in as humane way as possible. And also sort of being prepared for anything can go. People will respond in many ways. They both responded incredibly professionally, but also I think very centered on the moment that we're living now and recognizing, you know what, we expected this to happen. And while it's not, it's not what we like, we understand. Right, right. I want to ask about being on the other end of that video call, because I know a lot of our listeners are likely facing layoffs or furloughs themselves, or maybe they haven't had gotten that news yet, but they expect they might in the future.

So I wanted to talk about what happens when you first get that news. How do you manage the emotions of, you know, shame, embarrassment, fear, any advice for people in that position? Yeah, you know, I think you first need a breather. Part of receiving any bad news is being able to absorb it, reflect on it, and think about how you're going to respond to it. And you're absolutely right that, you know, no matter the situation, it's impossible for any of us to receive news And you're absolutely right that, you know, no matter the situation, it's impossible for any of us to receive news that we're being let go without taking it to heart, without personalizing it. It's going to trigger a lot of feelings of rejection. It can trigger feelings of not being able to support yourself. I mean, there's a lot of elements of that,

you know, and we sometimes forget when we deliver that news. I think part of it is just recognize your feelings for what they are, see them, name them, and then tomorrow think about, okay, if I've been through this before, how did I survive this before? And how am I gonna survive this next? I wanna follow up on that

because we heard from Alexandra Kalev earlier in the show about how women in this crisis in particular are being disproportionately affected by layoffs. And I'm curious, how do you not get into the, this is because I'm a woman? And is that useful to even think about? Or are there other emotions you should be focused on? Well, listen, again, we personalize everything. So it's impossible not to go to the, maybe it's because I'm a woman, a person of color, trans, or why all of that is. And the truth of the matter is, is that it could very well be that and a whole host of reasons. What I do know about what's happening now is that as a whole,

the decisions that are being made in organizations right now, we can't deny it. It's going to worsen existing inequalities, holding women back in the workplace. And so it's okay to feel personal and that it feels based on your identities. But it's also okay to just pause and name that and say, okay, this may or may not be because I'm a woman. But regardless of it, I am a woman. And this is impacting me in, you know, an X, Y, Z situation. And now I need to think about how do I put one foot in front of the other in a way that's going to allow me to regain the calm and the dignity and the grace that I need to face whatever's coming my way, whether that is rethinking your job description, whether that is even rethinking whether you're going to, if you have the privilege to do so, rethinking if you're

even going to be able to come back to work and rethinking like I did when I lost all my speaking roles. Okay, well, if I'm not going to have that revenue stream, what's a potential different revenue stream that I can tap into? And it may not be the glamorous, fun, traveling all over the country revenue stream that I had envisioned. But you know what? That vision, I've got to let go of that vision at this moment. And I've got to think about what does my family need? And what do I need to be able to bear it through the next six plus months until I have a better sense of what the landscape looks like so I can then decide what's next. And you did do that pivot, right? Yes. You're about to start a new job. Can you tell us just a little bit about that role, new role? Well, you know, it was funny because before COVID became, you know, the thing that it is for us

right now, I was approached for this role and I initially said no because I was loving my consulting life and I had a plan for the year and I had an amazing spreadsheet that I had planned for what my income was going to be into the new year. And I was really enjoying it. And about a week or so later, the headhunter called me again. And this was right around the time when I had my first potential cancellation for a speaking engagement. And the news started lifting up around quarantine. And I said, you know what? I know that I didn't want to go in-house right now, but it may make sense for me to think about this. This may be the time for stability for me and my family. And then, you know, after the first conversation, I realized, oh, okay, this could actually be really exciting. And the role is as a chief people officer for Vice Media. And when I

think about the unprecedented time that we're in, not just in terms of history, but also journalism and the space of work, what work looks like, what workplace culture looks like, which is the reason why my consultancy started and what I do, I thought there was probably no better place to be than in-house in a laboratory, if you will, so that I can truly engage in this thinking and this action around transformational growth and leadership and change. Yeah. First of all, congratulations. That's an exciting role. Thank you. Thank you so much. So what's interesting to me about that is that you could imagine someone in your shoes saying, I was forced to take an in-house position because of what

happened. This is not what I wanted for my career. You could really focus on the negative, but you're focusing on the opportunity. And I'm curious, not just for you, but for our listeners who maybe are out of a job right now and really need to be thinking, you know, positively, how do you go from thinking this is a major setback to I've just been presented with an opportunity? It takes a minute, right? You know, I can't tell you that it happens overnight. But what I would advise to those out there who are thinking about, okay, things are being put in front of me, and that wasn't the vision that I had,

is to really rethink what that vision was. Because that vision was with a bunch of data points that no longer exist. That vision was with a world that whether we like it or not, we're all grieving because it's not going to be the same. But there is a corner, right? We're going to turn a corner somewhere. And maybe it's because I grew up in a third world country. I grew up in the Dominican Republic where mistrust of government officials was pretty common, where rationing food was pretty common, where dealing with rolling blackouts and having to do my homework with candlelight, again, was super common. And so I have been leaning on my childhood memories of, oh, wait, I have been through tough moments. And there have

there has always been better days ahead. And so there will be better days ahead, they're just going to be different. And right now I get to lean on a little bit of that resiliency that I built as a kid that I didn't even know I had. Yeah, I mean, it's it you're, you're talking about connecting to purpose, relying on past moments when you've you've been able to demonstrate your resilience, and also just not denying your emotions. And it's okay to be disappointed is what I what I hear you saying. Absolutely. And then pick yourself up. Yeah, and figure it out. You'll have those moments. I feel like the first four weeks,

there was always one day of the week and I wasn't being intentional about this, but I eventually saw a pattern where I had one day a week that I was incredibly down. And so I started calling those my feeling days. I was like, that's the day that I'm in my feelings. And I needed those moments. And I needed to acknowledge that I was like,

I'm feeling sad and I don't have all the words for it, but there is a feeling of sadness and grief and loss. And I'm trying to find what that means. But right now, I'm just going to sit in it. And then tomorrow, I'm going to reflect on that and think about, okay, what's next? Sometimes just thinking that we have to power through for others is actually the most damaging thing we can do for ourselves. And it doesn't allow us to have a clear head to make the right decisions when they present themselves to us. Yeah. What does the future hold for business?

Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. So one of the feelings that I'm certain is coming up for a lot of people also is just the feeling that you're alone, even though we know that millions of people are out of work right now. How do you battle that? I mean, I'm sure you have to

connect with other people. I mean, I've never gotten a job in my life that didn't depend on like 10 different people helping me out, reading a resume, making a connection, give, you know, help rehearsing interview questions. Who are the particular people that you should be thinking about reaching out to? You know, that's a really great question because at the onset of the quarantine orders, I felt like all of a sudden everyone that I knew was trying to get on a Zoom, you know, group meeting. And I was really fortunate to belong to a series of groupings of women. And so all of a sudden there was a three o'clock Zoom

for this group just to like, again, be in our feelings and to talk about all the things that are frightening us and getting us afraid. Even alumni groups, programs that I've attended, we reconnected as a class and said, let's do a Zoom cocktail hour on Tuesday of next week. And so I feel like very quickly, we were all a checking in on each other and making sure that people were safe and healthy, but also strengthening

those bonds that are so important in moments where we can feel isolated, right? It became an opportunity to check in with each other, but also to think about what do you need? You know, do you need emotional support today? Because I've got that for you. Or do you need an introduction to someone? Do you need someone to review your book proposal? And so my advice to all of us is to A, start leaning on those people around you, because we all have people around us that we have actually either been in touch with or need to reconnect with. Another thing that I did was that for the first four to five weeks, I would put a list together of folks that I hadn't talked to in a long time, that frankly, I wanted to be connected with because I wanted to make sure that they were safe and healthy. But in doing that, every week now there was a I hope this note finds you safe

and healthy, which I think is like the standard start for any email and note right now. And then there was like, and here's what's happening in my life. And so it was an opportunity to reconnect and also to solidify bonds that could eventually be helpful to you. Because for me, everyone responded with, oh, you must have lost all your speaking. How can I help? And so I was able to, if I needed the help, say, well, you know, I could, you know, I could use an introduction to these folks that I think you know. Or what I said a lot at the beginning was, I don't know what I need right now, but I'm going to ask you for a rain check. Because when I do, I'll come back to you. And so think about building relationships now the same way you would have before. You don't necessarily have to have an ask right away, but you want to have a relationship before you have the ask.

Yeah. And you want to be able to have a place where people can also be thinking about you in a different way. So I think that that's really important to think about. A, how do we reconnect to those loose networks that we've had for a long time? Weak ties, as they call them. The weak ties, exactly. So how do I find reconnections to those? How do I reconnect with my strong ties also? Because those are the folks that nourish my soul and that care for my heart.

And then the third part is how do you then get to a place once you've built a little bit of clarity about what you need so that you can make the asks of those both loose and close networks of, okay, well, now I may need an introduction to this place. And I find that it can be both proactive, but also some of it will come your way. Yeah. You know, I'm so glad you're talking about making the ask because I had a former colleague reach out last week and say, I'm thinking about making a career move. Can we have, you know, half an hour to talk? And I have to admit, I first was like, oh gosh, I don't have a half an hour. I'm so overwhelmed. And I was like, you know what? This will feel good.

I haven't talked to her in a long time. We had a lovely conversation. She's like, this is what I want to do. And it felt so good. I am really busy and I'm fortunate to be busy right now. But it felt really good to then spend an hour just emailing people on her behalf, thinking of jobs. And it just felt good to help. And I think so many people will be hesitant to reach out right now, because they'll think, well, I'm sure this person's getting a million calls, who has time, everyone's overwhelmed, that person has four kids at home, you know,

all those excuses. But I think it's important to remember, people want to help you. You know, you're actually giving people a bit of purpose when you do that. I like to remind folks that giving to others is a form of self-care. And that feels very true to me. I'm also telling women a lot who are asking questions about, you know, like, is this the right time to pivot or to think differently about my career? This is the perfect time to reimagine your career. I mean, the rules have dramatically changed. There is no playbook anymore.

Everything is being reimagined, reinvented. And what better time than you to be crystal clear how you can be part of that reinvention. Yeah. Well, and the thinking about it is free, right? Like you might evaluate the risk you take right now differently because of the job situation and the labor market, but you can think about it. There's no problem in that. So let me ask about less severe setbacks. So not necessarily being laid off, but perhaps you were up for a promotion. People have said, oh, we're going to put that on

hold for now, or you've been forced off a project or something you cared a lot about, an initiative was killed. You know, some of these decisions are being made inside organizations. And typically, I think our advice to women would be push back on those, you know, ask, does this really need to be held off? But is that the right advice at this moment? I don't think this is the right time to necessarily push back for the sake of pushing back. I still think that this is a good time to ask for what reasons. I think it's fair to ask your manager and, you know, and a good manager should be able to tell you right away, here's why we're pushing back on your promotions. And for many companies, it's, we're just not allowing any promotions. And

my advice to the companies that I consult is exactly that. I was like, if you're not going to promote anyone, then don't promote anyone because you don't want to say you're not promoting anyone. And then someone hears about someone getting a promotion. And so that's why I think it is fair to say, okay, for what reasons? And is this a universal policy across the organization? You want to have information available that gives you a sense of, okay, so if this is the information available to me right now, then how do I continue to position myself to be a frontline runner up for that promotion next? And then it becomes a constructive conversation with your manager. And it becomes a conversation where you are still on the radar because you don't want to lose

being on the radar for these opportunities. But you also want to be seen as the person that showed up and stayed there during the crisis. I ask leaders a lot the question, how do you want your leadership to be defined when the crisis is over? Well, that applies to every individual contributor and everyone that's in the organization. So how do you want that to show up? Because, you know, right now, it's also a time where those that can have enough capacity to think about it, those are who are people managers and leaders, are thinking, okay, who in my team is showing up the way that I need them to show up?

Who in my team is leading and supporting and contributing? That, you know, who has the capacity to do so? They're all looking at that because now is a really great time to see the resiliency of people and what kind of potential they have to survive whenever other crises that are going to come our way. And so you want to speak to your manager in a way that it gives them a sense that you

understand the situation that's happening in the organization, where you are showing curiosity and you are asking right questions regarding business continuity and leadership, and where you are ensuring that your manager or your leader knows you are still on the same path and you want to know what else you could be doing or how differently you could be operating in this point to be of service to him or her and to the organization. Yeah. Let me ask about that because we got an email from a listener who was up for a promotion

just as this all hit. And she said, I was going to have to go above and beyond in order to get that promotion. I think most of us feel that pressure. But now she is at home with young kids. Her husband is also working full time. And she just knows I'm not going to be able to deliver in the way I would have. And yet we're all very aware that managers are making those decisions based on how we behave and perform right now. Any advice for her? I think you have to have a really clear line of communication with your manager. And I'm not saying that's going to always yield the result that you want from it. You know, the fact is that

there will still be biases that are creeping up in decision making. Actually, in moments of crisis, biases flare up. So we're incredibly aware of the fact that at these moments, decisions are not always being made with the right information or even emotional state. But I would say that this is the time to have that transparent conversation. And if there's ever been a time where you can speak plainly about, you know, here's what's impacting my performance. Here's what's impacting my outcomes, the delivery of this project, whatever it is that you do, to be able to speak in the language that resonates with your manager and say, okay, you know, for the next month or so, while I am homeschooling my three children and taking care of my elder parents that live in another state, you know, it's like, well, I am managing all of that.

I am multitasking all of that, and I am delivering for you at this capacity. And then this is the question. Will that have an impact on my promotion? What is it that you need for me to deliver on? And then I can give you a really thoughtful assessment of what I can deliver for you. If it's baseline or if it's above, if it's above, if it's impossible, then I think it's fair for you to say it's impossible at this moment, given the conditions that we are all living in this world. It may mean that your promotion gets delayed like many other promotions.

It may mean that you're going to have to hold off on those dreams for some time. It may also mean that you create an opportunity to build a much richer relationship with your manager, where you're actually being able to have frank conversations that you weren't able to have before. Right. While still very much keeping front and center performance, while still keeping very much front and center business continuity, and all of the responsibilities that you have from a business perspective, but also recognizing it's not business as usual. Right. Right. I mean, you're essentially saying reset the expectations. This listener of ours, you know, went into this eligibility period for her promotion

under one set of expectations. And now everything is so different from all sides, right? So that conversation you're advising, while it may be a tough conversation to have, it is essentially just saying, let's just be a tough conversation to have, it is essentially just saying, let's just be clear about what expectations are on both sides. And I love asking, when will I be eligible for promotion? And they may say, I don't know, right? They may not know, but at least you're asking the question, showing you're still hungry, you're still invested in making it happen. I love that. Absolutely. So any advice for managers

as they tell a woman in particular that something they've worked really hard to get is not going to happen? Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar to delivering any bad news. It's doing your work in advance, it's knowing who you're speaking to. If you are a good manager, you know what your employees triggers are, you know what worries them, what excites them. And so before going into any conversation, I would say, do your homework on who you're speaking to and ensure that you are then adjusting your messaging to that person. And that can mean a whole host of things. You know, in HR, we tend to get these scripted notes from our legal departments and our comms teams that tell us this is exactly what you need to say because you have to protect the company.

And I've had to deliver those often. And I always let my HR and legal partners know I'm going to add my own piece to this, but I will deliver what you're asking me to deliver because I am also a good corporate citizen. And so when I sit down with folks, I will have the personal conversation first. And then before I start reading the note, I will say, I'm going to read this because I've been asked to read this. And I want to make sure I don't miss anything. And this is about protecting you and the organization. But you and I are going to have a full conversation afterwards. I will read, I will say everything I'm supposed to be saying. And then we will sit down and have a moment of, do you want to talk about this now?

Do you need some time to process? Do you want an hour? Do you want a day? And it's also about when you're taking something from someone, which is when you're letting them go or taking a project or telling them they're not getting promoted, you're taking something from them. Whether you like to admit it or not, you are. Well, you want to think about how do you give them back some agency? How do you give them back

a slight sense of empowerment and a really, you know, disempowering environment. And so that allows them to make some choices. Yeah. Okay, you know what, let me get back to you in an hour once I've had a time to process this, or some people just need to go through it right there. But you're creating a moment for them to have some agency and a moment where they can feel like the whole ground was taken from them, underneath them. Yeah, I mean, that feeling of being out of control is so pervasive in this whole situation. Whether you're the HR manager

having to make these tough decisions, whether you're the manager having to deliver those notes you're talking about that legal wrote up for you, or whether you're the person getting the bad news, right? So many of us feel we have lost control. One of the things we heard about from the research is the layoffs, the furloughs, these decisions are disproportionately affecting women and minorities. What advice do you have for managers who are making decisions or leaders who are making decisions about who's getting laid off, you know, who's getting promoted and who's not, how to make sure that you're considering diversity in those decisions.

Yeah, I often tell leaders to think about centering equity when making these decisions and to watch out for your blind spots. Many of us were taught when having to do a layoff of this nature, the swiftest and fairest way is first in and first out. Well, here's what happens. In many organizations, most of the people of color and younger, more junior roles are those roles that will fit into that criteria. So inadvertently, you are actually not just getting rid of all the diversity that you've been working on for a long time, but also diminishing your chances of being able to rebuild that work again in the future. And so when you center equity, you think about, okay, starting out with what's my number, I need to cut this amount, what does

that look like? Begin with performance. You know, you may have some performance laggers already, and that, you know, those are easier choices to make. Another first step could very well be of what's the jobs that we're not going to have in a couple of months, the data that we have right now, if these roles are not going to exist in the next couple of months, then that makes sense to actually cut those roles. And then the next one is then you're looking into your organization and looking at all of the levels. Many organizations have been instead of laying people off doing doing reductions in salaries and starting at the very top, because guess what? You get more bang for your buck at that level.

If you reduce the lower ranks, you're not really going to get that much out of it. But you're also having leaders shoulder the burden that they're supposed to be shouldering. So there's a few solutions to it, but fundamentally is, if you're going to do this, the fact of the matter is that your legal teams will review for adverse impact, and they'll review against stated criteria and algorithms that don't always really tap into the real impact that the most vulnerable and marginalized in your organization have. And so you're going to have to dig a little deeper and be willing to ask those really hard questions.

Yeah. So Daisy, I want to talk a bit about how people move forward. You know, we heard from Anne that her hopes about this building this new career have been dashed. She's now a full-time homeschool teacher taking care of the house, you know, and she says, you know, how do I find the space to feel like I'm doing something that I'm still contributing? And she's also questioning, like, how much hustle does she need to be doing now when she's so overwhelmed? Any advice for

women in that similar situation? It's, let me begin by saying that I have deep empathy for that space because I've been there and have many of my friends who are there. I think that part of it is also allowing yourself the space to rest and renew and replenish whenever you can. And so, you know, I have a hard time with the philosophy of being on the hustle all the time. I don't, I can't do that all the time, even in the best of conditions. Right.

So figure out how do you carve time for yourself. You can carve out 25 minutes to be your hustle time and your future thinking time at some point of the day, but that you're intentional about it and you are focused on that. And that gives you a sense of, okay, I am working towards something. I am not being held back by all of this work that just keeps on piling up in the laundry and the food and all of these things. And then when am I going to think about my future? You're actually intentional about it and you structure it in your day. And I think that for the most part, we can do that. I think the other piece about this is, you know, we do have to be a little kinder to ourselves, but

sometimes we're not good about being kind to ourselves. So you can appoint someone to be kind to you. You know, you know, for me, it's my girlfriends is checking in on me. It's letting a girlfriend know, you know, it's like, you know what, I'm having a really bad week. And I could just use a smile, or I could just use some, you know, words of advice or guidance. And it's like, sometimes that's the moment that allows you to recenter and reset and reconnect with yourself so that you can be reminded of all of these things that, again, we're all feeling that we've lost. They're not fully lost. They're in you. They're just going to have to be reimagined. Yeah. I want to go back to what we were talking about earlier about

emotions. We also heard from Kelly and she's started to interview for a few jobs. But as she says, those opportunities are drying up. And she just wants to know, how do you have the confidence going into this? And especially when you've taken the emotional hit of losing your job or having your expectations or wishes put on hold? Where do you dig deep and find that confidence to move forward? Again, the hardest thing to do is to find your confidence again when it goes like into deep recesses of your body, because it's just looking for every bit of protection possible, right? Yeah.

This may be a good time to get your priorities in place and to think differently about what your priorities were. And again, to perhaps like reimagine it. And sometimes in doing that, you can sort of find yourself again and go, oh, well, you know what? I said that was important to me, but that wasn't really important to me. But this is a good time for you to actually think about what is important. And if this is important to me, how do I carve out the time and how do I humanly find the

time and the resources for people to help me find the time and how do I humanly find the time and the resources for people to help me find the time and do that? Because like we said earlier, people will help you if you ask. And if the ask is, I have lost my confidence and I have lost my sense of my path and where I was going, it's a having someone who loves and cares for you sit down with you and relive that moment of like, what was that path? What did it look like? What is different now?

What's the discovery phase that we can go to? And frankly, what's your threshold for discovery right now? Because you may have a higher threshold this week than you do next week. And so if this week you've got a higher threshold, then let's double down on that. And so sometimes you lose your confidence when you forget what you're good at.

So sometimes you need people to remind you of that. Yeah, it's funny. I'm lucky to have a mom who's incredibly supportive. And she also does the embarrassing thing of bragging about me to other people in front of me. And so it's funny. When I feel down or like, okay, I need the confidence, I often think like, what would my mom brag about me right now? Which is a similar thing, which is like find the person who thinks you're amazing and just channel them for that moment.

Yes. I save things that people say positively about me so that I can go back to them. I call it my happy email inbox. And I go to that sometimes and I'll just read through them and it'll remind me. I was like, oh, I am not this, you know, sort of like lost soul. Like I actually have done all of this. So sometimes we need those. We need those reminders.

And many times they're outside of us. And then you can go inside. Sometimes we need to go outside that way and then come back inside and reinforce yourself and breathe. And again, walk into what's coming ahead of you with the sense of, I can do this. I've done this before. Others believe in me. I've got a purpose. I've delivered this before.

I can do it even better. Yeah, I love that. Well, Daisy, thank you so much for talking with me today. This has been so helpful. Oh, thank you, Amy. It's been lovely to chat with you. And this, frankly, has been a confidence booster for me. So I've enjoyed being part of this conversation with you. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Adam Buchholz,

Mary Du, Tina Tobey-Mack, Erica Truxler, and Rob Eckhart. Thanks for joining us and take good care.