Women at Work - When Your Partner Isn’t Giving You the Support You Need

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

The people we love have a great influence on our professional success. But when’s the last time you and your partner checked in about each other’s priorities and needs? Jennifer Petriglieri, an expert on dual-career couples, advises one woman on how to get out of the relationship traps she and her husband have fallen into as the parents of young children, and offers practical tips for how she can have more productive conversations with her partner to realize her career ambitions.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash womenatwork. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. If you've been listening to our show for a while or reading our newsletter, you know that we regularly ask listeners and readers to tell us about the workplace challenges they're facing. And this one particular email landed in our inbox recently about a dilemma that we think is very relatable and yet rarely discussed.

The woman who wrote that email gave us permission to read it out loud. Here it goes. Hello. I'm not sure this has been covered before, but I personally am being challenged in a way that may be an issue for others as well. It's difficult to get my husband to wholeheartedly support my career and its development. He's an excellent partner, we make a great team, and he absolutely intends to be supportive. But when I face additional demands from my job, he tends to grumble a bit about the longer hours or extra stress I'm experiencing. And then she gives some background about her career and family life.

She's in biotech, working in research and development. She and her husband have been married for seven years and have two kids. He's an attorney and earns a higher salary than she does, but her total compensation package is larger and includes a family health insurance. After their first baby, she switched from the technical scientist track to program management in order to have greater control over her schedule and be able to work from home more often. I'm not underpaid, underappreciated, or unhappy in my career, she writes. We generally communicate openly and well. There's never been an expectation or desire for me to be a stay-at-home parent, yet if I need to travel for a day or two or if I need to work past 5 p.m., he grouses. She goes on

to say that when she's earned promotions in the past, they've discussed how to manage the additional demands together. He still doesn't seem to understand how to support my career development, she continues, which can make me feel as though he's being dismissive. I'm wondering if it's a result of some unconscious bias. His own mother never desired or pursued a career outside the home and cared for him and his sister full time. He also works in a different field, which makes it difficult to contextualize struggles I'm facing in a way that he can easily grasp. She gave an example too, right? She sure did. Here it is. I recently expressed discontent with decisions made by leadership and shared my concerns with my husband, wanting to talk through my approach for responding appropriately in the office.

He did not offer any guidance, support, or commiseration, but responded with concerned questions about whether I would leave my job and reduce our household income. I'll keep quoting her. I always employ strategies to garner his support for business trips or late work events, including coordination with family or friends to ensure he has a hand with child care while I'm gone if he needs it. He still fusses. And so now she's stepping into a leadership role, supporting a department, and that's about to require even more travel. I'm not sure how to get him to buy in,

and that makes me nervous as I gear up to take on even more responsibility. Let me know if you'd like more information or if you have material that already addresses this. I'd love to see it. Thanks, Rebecca. This is a problem I think so many of us can relate to, or at least parts of it. HBR has published a fair amount of advice for dual career couples, a lot of it by NCED professor Jennifer Petriglieri. She's been on our show before in our season one episode, Couples That Work, which is also the title of her book. Right. And that episode embraced the fact that the people we love have a big impact on us professionally. Jennifer was also describing an ideal, mutually supportive relationship and how to achieve it.

She wasn't so much talking about what falling short looks and feels like. And so hearing about Rebecca's situation to me is validating. And having her on the show along with Jennifer is even better. We're going to learn from both of them about how to handle career family tension, especially when it's the first time you've faced it or are ready to acknowledge and deal with it. Jen and Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited to take part in this conversation today. It's great to be here. Thanks for having us.

So let me start with you, Jen. In studying dual queer couples, you identified three phases of their lives where tension tends to surface. Would you say Rebecca's in the first phase? Yeah, absolutely. So the first phase is really the phase where we work out how to be interdependent. If we think about our lives before we get together, we have these independent lives, independent careers. And when we initially get together, we're still relatively independent, right? We have our careers running, our families, our friends, and then something happens that means we really need to combine those tracks. And I think in Rebecca's case, I don't want to speak for her, but I think it's probably the arrival of your children. I think you have two children, Rebecca, and they're fairly young.

And for any of us who've had children, myself included, it's a huge transition. And it really means we have to work together as a team. And not just on the practical things, but also really figuring out what does it mean to be a couple? How are we going to support each other? How are we going to be as parents, as workers and careers? And there's a lot of things to untangle at that phase. And it feels like Rebecca's right in the middle of that tangle and trying to sort of make it work, really. Do you relate to that, Rebecca? I absolutely relate to that. I think the pandemic hitting right when our oldest was about 18 months old, really exacerbated the pressures that come

along with that first transition. So rather than simply, how do we make this work as parents, as a couple in our career, there was this added layer of how do we make everything work? How do we make a trip to the grocery store work? How do we make remote work happen? At this point, I was still going into the office to work in the lab a few days a week and then analyzing data and writing reports at home. So we really needed to figure out how to function as a family in that situation. And then the decision to have a second child in the midst of all of this was a bold choice. Obviously, we wouldn't have it any other way. But there's a lot of moving pieces in that transition for sure. Yeah. And I think, Rebecca, your experience is so similar to other couples that the pandemic, it didn't change things per se, but it upped the ante, right? It

amplified everything that was going on. It created this spotlight with a huge amount of pressure. And I think, first of all, congratulations on the second child. What a wonderful gift. But it's really interesting because it's very often the arrival of the second child that really makes things more difficult, right? Because one, you can sort of juggle between you. Two, not so much. You know, I had a child long before the pandemic and I have to say when she was born in the first year I thought to myself this is the most unfeminist thing I've ever done and I don't mean that you know having the child but I mean that it was all of a sudden societal expectations and the expectations within my marriage were that I would carry all of the load.

And I just thought, wait, wait, wait, how did this come to be? All the work we've done to advance women and advance women's careers, like how is that all of a sudden out the window because I have this baby in my arms? I'm sorry, but something you just said, Amy, I want to sort of bounce it over to Rebecca. You said that the expectations in your marriage were that you would carry the load. Was that true of your marriage, Rebecca? To a certain extent, yes. I mean, I nursed both of our both of our babies. So you sort of set that expectation right from the beginning that this tiny little being is attached to you pretty much constantly. And then you're the one waking up

in the middle of the night constantly for it. So figuring out how to transition away from that as you can share feeding responsibilities and figuring out how to equitably share parenting parenting roles when it's so clear that when one person is nursing, it just seems so normal for that to be the go-to person for everything is also a struggle. And when you're exhausted, it's really hard to say, I need you to take the baby or for that other person who's trying to keep everything else running to see exactly what you need in that time and jump in to provide it. Well, the exhaustion, I think, is a good point because it's hard. You can't find the time to even have the conversation about how do we equitably share the workload here and workload meaning home and work and all of that. Jennifer, I'm curious, how often do couples actually have those conversations, either before they have

children or soon after? It's a really good question. So I think very few couples have those full conversations before, partly because we don't think of it, and partly because it's very difficult to imagine what it's going to be like until that baby arrives. You can read all the parenting books in the world, but until the rubber hits the road, you know, you just don't know. But I think what happens is two things. We're either having those at sort of four o'clock in the morning emergency when temper's afraid, which is not going to go anywhere, or we just let it go. And I think Rebecca's right. It's kind of been working, but there's also the sense that it becomes the default. This is what we've done for the first three months. So we carry on a little bit without questioning until it becomes

very clear it's not working. And then there's that sort of crisis point and how do we rewind? What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash womenatwork. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work.

Hey listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business,

followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. What are some of the tools, Jen, that you recommend, you know, a couple in this first phase actually employ to get through it? Yeah, so I think when we're in the phase that Rebecca's in, and I remember it's a long time ago for me, but I remember when my two kids were at that age, we tend to really focus on the practicalities. And of course it's important, right? Who's on duty tonight, who picks them up from the crash, whatever that happens to be.

But I found with the couples in my research, the most important thing is to really rewind to the basics and look at how are we managing this as a couple almost at the psychological level. And Rebecca, I was really struck by your email where, you know, your husband's clearly a good guy, right? He has good intentions, but it's a little bit more at the level of, okay, whose career is most important? Who has the power? How do we support each other? And certainly what I found in my research is if we figure those sort of foundational things out, the practicalities become a little clearer, right? Because the deal we have is clearer. And I think unless we figure that out, you can work on the practicalities all

you like, but you keep bumping into the same issue, which is, you know, whose responsibility is it? Who has the power? Why is it always me? You can't fix those things by just working out a schedule. That's a kind of discomforting conversation to have, though, isn't it? How do you do it, Jen? It can be a discomforting conversation, I think, particularly when you see it as a conversation, right? We're going to sit down tonight and we're going to figure it all out. I mean, that's a really tall order. And I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone doing that, even with a big bottle of wine, that's not going to happen. I think this is about a series of

conversations. And really starting off on the baseline is what is important to us individually and also as a couple. So I think in Rebecca's situation, there's sort of two conversations to start with, which is maybe thinking of the next five years. And I always think that's a good time period, especially with small children, because you can kind of imagine your one-year-old going to six, but it's hard to imagine them going to 11, right? You know, 10 years feels a long time. Five years is a good time period because it's long enough that we can really make some transitions in our family and in our career,

but it's not so far out that we can't imagine what it's like. And really sitting down and saying, what is important to us in the next five years individually and as a couple and that includes professional goals it includes what kind of family do we want to build and the thing that we often miss at this stage when our children are little is the things for us right what's the two or three things that are really important for me and that's a great starting conversation because you don't need to agree anything right It's just understanding and building a mutual understanding of who wants what. And that really should be the foundation for all the decisions you're going to make from there on in. Yeah. Rebecca, did you and your husband have any of those conversations about

expectations or how to divide things up? We did before we got engaged when we were sort of in the process of building a life together. And then we didn't really talk about it again. So as life really started taking off and this was, I mean, he had basically just graduated from law school. I, at the time, was thinking that I wanted to go to medical school and decided not to, but then we jumped into actual careers that kind of have minds of their own, right, when it comes to development and had children and we haven't really revisited those conversations. Like you said, Amy, because you're exhausted. How do you find that time? And it's either at 4am when you're losing your mind, which is not productive, or it just doesn't

happen. And you end up just seething at one another, or it pops out at odd moments. Yeah. So Jen, how would you suggest Rebecca handle this? I think super practically, first of all, break those conversations down into snippets. So you don't need four hours. You need a series of 20 minutes. We can find 20 minutes, right? The kids go to bed relatively early, right?

The kids are in bed. We put our phones down immediately. We sit down with a cup of tea. We put our phones down immediately. We sit down with a cup of tea. We'd say, okay, the next 20 minutes, we're just going to talk about this. And I think that first conversation is really just building mutual understanding. What do we both want? I love what you said, Rebecca, because I think we all do this, right? In the early days, we talk about all these things and then it goes under the wayside. And of course, what we want changes, right? This is very normal.

So I imagine even that conversation, both you and your husband will probably be surprised by what you hear. There'll be some things that just stay constant and other things you're like, wow, I didn't realize that actually. And that's just a really important point to start. So that's the first 20 minute conversation.

Then maybe the next week you have another conversation around, okay, given that, let's look at our careers vis-a-vis each other and whose career is going to take priority, if anyone's, and have the career conversation, right? What are we going to do to manage our careers side by side? And then the next week we start thinking, OK, given that, what are some of the practicalities? One of the things that often creates tension at this stage, we have this sense that our careers are kind of 50-50 on equal footing, but very often then our parenting is not

co-parenting, right? The lion's share falls on typically the woman. And this is just not sustainable, right? If we have 50-50 careers, we need 50-50 parenting. And sort of building light up like that makes those issues become very clear what the crux is and it makes us able to tackle it. So I would say like bite-sized chunks, 20-minute goes, I'm sure you'll be able to fit that into your schedule. I love that. Well, and I think even toasting with your tea at the beginning of that conversation,

we got the kids to bed. Something that sets up we're in this together, because if I think about what would make me nervous about that conversation is that most of us aren't skilled in having tense conversations or difficult conversations with our spouses or with anyone. And so I would be worried, speaking from experience, that it would be sort of an airing of resentments as opposed to a collaborative conversation. So like, how do you set it up so it's productive, not contentious? But I think you need to check that assumption, Amy. Okay.

Because I think sometimes it's our assumptions that get us into trouble. Oh, my God, this is a big deal. And I'm really tense. The conversation will be tense if you go in this way. And I think particularly if you start with what are you excited about? What are your goals for the next five years? There's nothing contentious in that conversation. And then you're developing the method of talking to each other. And then next time, maybe you touch on something a little bit more difficult, right? Okay, so how are we going to figure out our careers next to each other? And then you sort of work up to the more contentious stuff. But by the time you've done that, you'll be in the habit, right, of having the underlying issues, the psychological forces, the assumptions, all of the stuff that we've been talking about here. Can you say why that's

important? Because it's about the symptom versus the cause. The practical issues are always the symptom. You know, if you're fighting about who's buying the milk, it's never about the milk. And I think we all know that it's not about the milk. It's not about who does pick up. It's about who has the power, who gets to decide, whose schedule is respected. And you know, you can do all sorts of Google calendar syncs or schedules around who does shopping, it's not going to solve those issues. And that's why it's really important to get down to basics. And what I find, and I'm sure Rebecca, you'll find this as well, because it sounds like your husband has great intentions, is when you start having those conversations, a lot of what is going on is misunderstanding as opposed to misalignment.

I find it hard to believe, and I'm sure Rebecca doesn't believe either, that her husband is kind of trying to get her to do everything or doesn't care. He doesn't sound like that sort of guy, right? It's just there's some misunderstanding where you're sort of passing past each other. And building that mutual understanding just goes a whole way. And you can build the practicalities on top of that. I think about the Brene Brown advice around using the phrase, the story I'm telling myself. I see you nodding, Rebecca. Have you used that? I used that. Tell us how.

So I had this discussion with my husband and I said, I want to know what is going on in your head when you see me working past five or dialing in after the kids have gone to bed to catch up on something. I want to know what's going on in your head because the story I'm telling myself is that you don't think I should be doing this, that you don't think I should be putting in the work to gear up for this promotion that I'm working toward. And I told him that I was worried that part of it was internalized misogyny that we all may struggle with on occasion. So he said, what's going through my head is, I don't think they're paying you enough for this. I don't think they're appreciating you enough for this. Interesting.

That's very different than. You're wasting your time. You're a woman. You should stop, right? Yes. On my side, I've had a long day. I went to the grocery store on my lunch hour. So I'm trying to catch up now so that we can have some family time before we wrestle with children into bed. And now you are grumbling at me about working late, which doesn't help.

So understanding where he's coming from with that makes a huge, huge difference. Well, because what I hear in his response is that he cares about you, right? He cares about you and he cares about your career and you not being taken advantage of, which is very different than I care about me and the fact that you're working late is inconvenient to me, which is what about my interpretation too, to be fair. And I think that goes, Jen, to your point about misunderstanding versus misalignment. Yeah. And I have a question, if I may, Rebecca. In an ideal world, what support would you like from him? If he could do two or three things a week, what would be like that? Oh, my goodness.

If these are the two or three things you could do, that would be brilliant. Do you have a sense of what they are, like what you need? I think I'm not going to speak for everyone experiencing this first transition or every couple with small children, but connection, finding time for connection is so tough. So reaching out and saying, I know you're going through this big thing at work. Tell me more about what you're finding out, or I want to hear about how you're dealing with this. Reaching out, so reaching out to connect and approaching it from that sort of caring space rather than from something that might look like complaining if you are not in the appropriate mindset. That's really what is needed, I think.

Does he know? Would he be surprised if he heard you say that? I don't know. You see, let me tell you what I find a lot with couples is I'm sure he wants to be a supportive partner. We all want to be supportive partners, but very often we just don't know how. And so we sort of do a little scattergun approach, right? We try a bit of this, we try a bit of that, and we feel like we're trying really hard and we're not getting

anywhere. And sometimes the most helpful thing you can say to him is, look, if there's one thing I could have from you, it's like 10 minutes a day where you put your phone down and you're just a sounding board for me. And if I could have that from a, you know, from a stance of compassion, everything would get better. He will probably thank you for that, like for infinity. Because what it is, is it says to him, okay, I only need to do these 10 minutes a day, right? It's like, I know how to do the thing you want. I really recommend you try that because I think so often people say to me, well, if I knew that was what it was, that would be easy. And I think that conversation in some way that this is what I need for you is almost as important as the, okay, how do our careers fit together? Who has the power? Just asking for what we need. And I think it's something we all feel a bit shy about doing,

right? You know, my husband asked me years ago, it was very simple request. He said, can you just say one thought to me a day that doesn't have to do with logistics or our kid, just like something that's gone through your head. And I remember at the time I actually was really angry. I was like, nothing goes through my head. And I remember at the time, I actually was really angry. I was like, nothing goes through my head except for logistics and kid and job. I don't have time for anything else. And he's like, I don't believe that. And it's true.

And I hear him still. I actually heard him last weekend tell this story. And he said it was so great. She actually did it. And she had really interesting thoughts. And it was so easy once I sort of gave up the resentment about it. But I am curious about this request for Rebecca, because I do remember from your email, Rebecca, that your husband wasn't supportive when you brought up this workplace conflict that was happening. So do you think

that request would land well with him? I'm not sure. I'll try it later and let you know. Yeah, I find it so hard just to say what I need. I wonder if all of you feel that way too. There's lots of nodding happening. Yes. Yeah, definitely. What about you, Rebecca? Is it easy or difficult for you just to pinpoint what you need and say it out loud?

I think it's difficult. So putting in the work to pinpoint what you need, that also takes a little space, right? And working toward a promotion at work and having the small children and going through other transitions, finding the space that you need in order to do that kind of thing, that has definitely been a challenge. And that's one of the things that has been difficult to communicating. I would love to hear how any or all of you who are successful people that I admire, have managed to navigate that piece of figuring out what exactly you needed and asking for it from your partner. For me, it's really, as Rebecca said, trying to figure out what I actually need and not getting hung up in that the antagonism of I just need you to stop being a jerk.

Right. And be like, no, OK, wait, what do I really need? And the other hurdle I've had to get over is to not pre argue what I'm asking for. So, like, I want something. Let's say I want him to take care of all of the groceries from now forever because I've handled it too much and I'm asking for. So like, I want something, let's say, I want him to take care of all of the groceries from now forever, because I've handled it too much, and I'm done making that request. I already am in my head going through why he will say that's not fair, or why that won't work, or why he can't do that. And I've had to learn to put that down and just say, I can make the

request, he can say no, or he can say yes. And then it's a conversation, but I'm entitled and I'm allowed to make the request to see whether he would do it. By the way, he does take care of all the groceries now, which is lovely. How did you get him there? How did that work out? Well, he was actually a lot less resistant than I imagined, which was the lesson, right? I said it and I could see he was like, ooh, like he was a little hesitant, but I was like, this would really help me just to take something, one of the many things I keep in my head off, right? Just to get that out of my head

and on your plate instead would just be so helpful. And I think the other thing that had helped is I sent him a podcast about this specific thing about people who were trying to better share equitably in a relationship and how overloaded this particular woman felt. I said, I really relate to what she's saying. And so it gave him some empathy without me having to say, I feel overloaded, which in the past had often felt like you're not doing enough. And so it gave him a moment of, okay, this woman is articulating what my wife is feeling. This isn't about me doing something wrong. This is about her needing help.

And so we had that conversation. And it took, to be fair, it wasn't like I asked. He was like, yes, I'll do it. You know, it took some back and forth. And it took a couple weeks of of then there were no groceries and so I was like remember you're doing the grocery like and he was like yep yep on it on it so it wasn't smooth and it wasn't perfect it's still not smooth and perfect but it's so much better because I don't think about it until there's no groceries yeah Jen what about you

have you made requests that you've been able to get yourself? Yeah. So I have tended to take a quite different tact, which is to ask him what he needs before saying what I need. So generous of you. Well, it helps me to understand the situation better before I go and ask for something, which then I think, oh, I asked for the wrong thing. Oh, interesting. I didn't the wrong thing. Oh, interesting. I didn't really want that. Actually, let me change my mind. Wait, it clarifies your own request. Yes, I think so. Because I think it's a little bit this kind of check your assumptions. You know, there's always two people involved in a problem, right? And I find it super helpful to

see his perspective before I kind of clarify mine into a request. So that has kind of helped me. And it also gives me a little bit of time to sort of think it through before I'm like, okay, this is really what I need from you. I also find just tactically, when you sort of give first, you almost always get back. So it's this classic give and take. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting,

you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. So when you were talking about the conversation you were having, Rebecca, with your husband about you were not happy with your work, and his response was concerned that you might leave the job and not bring home the salary. Jennifer, isn't this one of the very same traps you've been talking about? Yeah. So what I find in this first transition is it's a time in our lives, and I'm sure Rebecca's there as well, where money is important, right?

It's important. We have a financial income, especially when we have young children coming along. They are very expensive. But the problem is we can over-focus on money as a decision criteria, but also a concern that's up in our partnership, right? That everything comes back to, goodness, do we have enough money? What is this going to impact it? And there's a couple of problems with that. I mean, one is it takes the emphasis, I think, Rebecca, as it did with you, right, off the real problem, what's really going on here, which was at that point, your distress with the job. But I also think it can lead us to make decisions that don't make sense later on in our period as a couple. And so the danger is one or other of you walk down a road in your career

that in a few years time, you'll look back and think, oh, goodness, that was the wrong decision, even though logically, it sort of makes sense at that time. So I don't know what you make of that, Rebecca, whether you can see that happening. Oh, absolutely. I think at the time in that discussion, the most difficult thing was you're missing the point. I'm not saying that I am done. I'm throwing in the towel. I'm quitting. I'm saying that this is a challenge I'm experiencing. And I would either like some feedback on how you think I can navigate it or some support when I tell you that I'm not quite sure how to navigate this. So it might be a little messy for a bit. So it just kind of shut everything,

everything down there. But over-focusing on money is absolutely something that can happen. Like, oh, well, we need to live here because it's cheaper. It's very difficult, especially when you are thinking about so many different logistics, to stay true to who you want to be as a family, who you want to be as a couple, who you want to be as a person, as a parent, when the logistics completely take over. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I imagine it's compounding too, Jen, right? If you focus on the person who makes more money, for example, right? That's a natural inclination, I think, for like your career matters because you make more money, then that person will just always make more money because you're not focused on increasing the other person's earning potential.

So yes and no. I think that the even more complicated thing about money is particularly in today's climate, which is quite uncertain, it's not guaranteed that person will always make more money, which is even more tricky because if you really then focus on that career, who knows, they may be laid off. Something might happen to that career and suddenly you're relying on the other person and you've taken the focus off their career. So you've harmed their earning power. So it's really a kind of false sense of security where we say you earn more and therefore we should put more focus on you. That's a fool's game. Because what we know about careers in this day and age is our earning power now is not as

correlated to our earning power in the future as it perhaps was for our parents' generation. That's just not the case anymore. So you have to be really careful of making that assumption. And I think in Rebecca's case as well, it's not just the pay packet you get at the end of the month, it's the benefits. And especially when you have kids, those benefits are critical. The health care benefits, the other benefits. So can we look at this in the round as opposed to just how much money is coming into our account? That's a very helpful reminder because as someone who makes more money in my relationship, I have to admit, there are times where I'm like,

you know, we should be focused more on my career. Like there is sort of an entitlement that I feel about it. Maybe I know that your spouse doesn't have a traditional job. So I'm curious, if you also feel like the decisions have focused on my career, and I've felt that was warranted, but Jen's warning is a good one. Oh, I think it's a great warning. And I wonder, you know, when you're the higher earning spouse, there's a lot of resentment that comes along on both sides. So I would imagine de-emphasizing the finances might help. But really, Jen, is that true? Yeah. And I also think, let's get real. Finances are important. This is not to say they're not

important, but it's about, can we put them in perspective with everything else? I also think you're right. There can be an enormous pressure, especially when the wage gap becomes really high, that, goodness me, I better not lose my job, right? I better keep everything going. And that's an enormous burden to carry on your shoulders. It's worth you reminding yourself of that, that it's not worth focusing too much on one person's career because you're going to load that person up. It's much better for your mental health, both of you, that you try and keep things roughly on even keel. In your work, Jen, you also talk about, because we're talking about kids a lot, but I'm cognizant that there are other things that make these transitions hard. Could you talk a little bit about what other things might trigger these moments for us?

Yeah. So, I mean, Rebecca's at a career stage stage which is often one of acceleration right in our sort of late 20s and 30s it's a time when our career is moving quite quickly so there's opportunities coming up I know Rebecca's talking about a promotion she's going for I don't know where your husband is Rebecca but I imagine he has opportunities as well so is this kind of a little bit of the rocket ship phase of the career? And so two things are happening there. One is things we've agreed on six months ago may not be relevant six months later, right? Because things are moving very quickly. And secondly, there's a how do we keep

track of all those choices? So there may be a geographical element in that, like, is geography coming up? Is that on the table that there might be a move which can be a very difficult thing to negotiate for couples particularly if you have family nearby and small children how do you juggle all of that it might be a case of I know you didn't make that choice Rebecca but one of you might want to go and retrain whether it's medicine or something else how do you juggle that so it's just a time where there's a lot of moving pieces and it's very hard to think we'll fix this little area and then something else it's a little bit like the whack-a-mole right you think you fix one and then something else comes up which

is why it's really important to try and look at it a little bit holistically rather than okay let's try and figure out what to do with the child. And then let's figure out this and that. It's like, can we look at the whole picture so we can manage all these moving pieces at once? So what does that conversation sound like? Yeah. So again, I think it comes back to this five-year period. What do we really want? Careers, home, family. And does that make sense as a picture, right? Are we aiming for something that just doesn't fit together? So that is the first really important step. I think the second step that we forget about is boundaries. Given that, what are some choices we cannot make? Now, oftentimes we feel like, oh, well, I don't want to shut out options. But when we look

at the research on choice, it's actually really helpful because we see the more choice we have, the harder it is to choose and the more we regret our choices. So maybe it is, okay, we're going to go for this, but we're not going to move, right? We're going to stay in this geography. That's a big uncertainty you've taken off the table, which really kind of decreases the pressure on you as a couple. Or maybe it's, you know, we'd love a third child, but that is just not going to work given everything else we want. You know, that choice is off the table. Or maybe it's, so we both want to make career transitions, but it's not going to work us doing them exactly the same time. So you're going to go first. So I'm going to push for the next year and then you're going to push for the next year.

Figuring out these boundaries is really important because it takes that uncertainty off the table. And often, I think Ava, you were saying about that resentment building up or that kind of like, building up, that is very often about uncertainty and imagining, okay, if I do this, my partner's going to react in that way. It's very often the fantasy that's running in our head as opposed to the reality. So that boundary conversation is really helpful. Yeah. Have you done this, Rebecca? Have you had a boundary conversation? A little bit. Most recently, it was about travel for work. So travel was not really part of my job description before, but in this new role that I'm moving into, it is. But the way that my husband was approaching the conversation was, if they ask you, if they tell you that you need to travel this much, that's not going to work.

And I said, no. I am the one creating this role. I'm carving out this function. I get to say how much travel we can tolerate. So let's talk about what that means. How much travel is too much travel? What does that mean? Because that's another thing that, you know, misunderstanding versus misalignment. What is too much travel to you? What is working too much? What is not having enough of a hand in parenting? What do these things mean to you so that we can approach it from the same place? We may have a lot of common language, but when we're missing that, it can create a huge gulf. And how did that go?

I essentially said, this is what I was thinking and outlined a very detailed travel, not more than this number of times a year for this number of days at a time, plus monthly day trips as needed and said, does this work or what part of this needs to work? And being the incredibly level-headed analytical person he is, my husband was like, ah, yes, we can work on this. But I think, again, that's this example of taking uncertainty off the table. When you hear my spouse or my partner is going to travel a lot, it's like the alarm bells start ringing. Oh my goodness, I'm going to have to look after the kids and I'm not going to be on my own. But when you see actually it's no more than twice a month and for no more than two nights at a time,

it's okay that I can manage that. And so I think this getting concrete is really helpful in getting specific. Now, of course, there needs to be flexibility. You know, sometimes things happen, we need to travel extra. There needs to be that understanding as well. But the more specific we can get, the less stress there is in a couple. Yeah. The specifics you're talking about are, what I'm struggling with. And Jen, I want to hear what your thoughts are on this. Because you've clearly said in all your work, you also say like a Google calendar is not going to save your marriage, right? Like having all the rules and everything.

And yet those are the things when I think about like what gets us through every week, it is our shared calendar. So like, how do you balance the need to be very specific and deliberate with also these bigger conversations? I guess it's just you need to have both, but I'm curious. Yeah, so it's about thinking. I mean, I often think about this as a pyramid, right? You're not going to make a pyramid without those specific conversations and those agreements. But without the foundation of the agreement in terms of where our career is going, what do we want, like the pyramid just falls over. Okay, so of course, we need to talk about the practicalities, of course, we need to agree those things. But you cannot do that first, that's got to come after the big ticket items, right, which

is whose career is taking priority? What's our parenting model? What's our values? What are we trying to get out of life? What support do I need from you? What support do you need from me? Once we've squared all those, then the top of the pyramid, if you like,

the icing on the cake is the sinking Google calendars. Of course, that's helpful, right? The splitting chores, the division of labor. But those things alone are not going to help. So Jen, what I would really like to know selfishly for myself and maybe for any listeners who are in similar situations, as I am taking on more responsibility and this big, exciting challenge at work, how do I ensure that I'm getting the support that I need from home to form that secure base and succeed in this new role? to ask. And I do think if you're having just one conversation with your husband, it's thinking through in advance, what very specifically is your request from him for practical support? And I don't mean practical as in picking the kids up, but like, what is the thing every day you want and need?

And also doing the other side of that how can you support him because at the end of the day if we approach a career transition this this is my bigger role what do I need from it that's just not the way a couple works right you taking on a bigger role is good for the family and he needs to get some benefit from it too so I think thinking about the one thing he can do or the two things he can do every week and also asking that in reverse and making sure you're both benefiting is the most powerful conversation you have. And also pulling him into that transition and saying, hey, you know, I'm excited about this, but I cannot do it without you. You're not going

to succeed in that new role without your husband's backing. I mean, that's just a fact. And I think for him to really know, I need you and I super appreciate it if you can do these couple of things, it's going to be the most important step forward. And you've said something in there, Jen, that is maybe obvious to many people, but is an important reframing for me, which is that this interdependent stage transition, it's a lot about how does my career detract from your career? And you're actually saying, how does each of our careers add to the family? And I think that's the benefit for your husband of you making this leadership transition, Rebecca, is huge. And it's easy to get in a scarcity mindset of like,

well, it's actually going to cost this and you're going to travel and we're going to have to spend all this money and it's going to be emotionally hard. But to focus also on the benefits that your children are gaining, that your spouse is gaining, like that's, I think so many people forget to do that. I know I do. Yeah.

From what I took from Jennifer's wonderful book is that you cannot get through any of these transitions without communication. And being willing to challenge assumptions and have your assumptions challenged, right? Well, and to let each other change your mind. Right, exactly. I mean, that's the other thing is like, you may go into this leadership role and be like, oh, this isn't for me. Or your husband may get to the next level and say, oh, no, actually, right. And then you just, you have to communicate your way through that.

And every time it happens, it feels miraculous, right? It's true. It's true. You know, I so appreciate your willingness to talk through your story, Rebecca, because I think so much of us suffer in silence about these things. And we see it as yet another failure. Like I didn't choose a supportive spouse or I can't figure out how to get my spouse to be behind me. As this conversation is illustrated, it's society, it's misconceptions, it's lack of tools, it's lack of support in the community.

It's not a personal failure. And I'm just so grateful to you for sharing. Thank you. I'm really grateful for the opportunity. And I won't lie and say that it took no bravery on my part to come here today. But all partnerships have friction. And if one as solid as I like to think ours is, is experiencing this friction, there are definitely many more people experiencing it who don't feel empowered to speak up about it.

And they need to know they're not alone and they have tools at their disposal. Yeah. And thank you so much, Jen, for sharing all of that fantastic information. Yeah. I mean, I'm just so in awe of you, Rebecca, because it takes a lot to talk about this, even though it's so normal, right? This is everybody's life. And in fact, this is actually what makes a couple, right? What makes a couple is not the long romantic walks or the beautiful weekend away

it's getting through the tough times together and that's what makes us strong as a couple so in some ways this is not a sign of weakness this is a sign of strength right that you can talk about this and really recognize that this is what's going to forge an amazing relationship for life. Well, I have learned so much from you, Rebecca, and from you, Jen. This was a great conversation. Thanks for having us on. I really enjoyed the conversation as well. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. If you'd like to learn about the two other relationships slash career transitions that Jennifer documented, check out her book, Couples That Work. In it, she explains how to communicate your way through and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack,

Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed our theme music. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatwork at hbr.org. And remember that we have a newsletter written by our producer, Amanda, and edited by Amy G. It includes resources, practical advice, and personal stories to lift you up and move you forward. It's also free. Subscribe by going to hbr.org slash newsletters.