World Of Secrets - Finding Mr Fox: 6. What does the Fox say?

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Our investigation moves to a hotel car park in Norwich, England. What more new leads will this bring? We find the man himself, but what does Fox have to say about the tonne of cocaine found on his yacht? How does he respond to the claims from Brazilian police?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. So we've just arrived in Norwich and we've got an address for Fox. And we're going to try and see if we can see whether there's any signs of life there. So far, we've heard Daniel and Rodrigo's account of what happened. We've heard from the Brazilian police and from Fox's colleague, Robert Delbos. But we also want to know what Fox has to say. Thanks to our colleague, Ayum, the social media sleuth, we think Fox might be at a house on this residential street

in Norwich, a small city in the east of England. It's quite a narrow street. There's not an awful lot of cover. But unless we see him, we won't know for sure. You're alright, you've got about three feet. Keep going. So now it's just a waiting game. All eyes are on the house. No one wants to turn away, even for a moment. The street is very quiet.

I'm sure we'll spot him if he comes out with his dog. Of course, we don't even know if he's definitely here or not. We've been here for a while now. See a cat wandering over the road. No sign of a fox though. After a couple of hours cooped up inside the van, Colin decides to have a closer look. So I'm wandering up to Fox's house now. The window is open.

So if the window's open open maybe he's in. Time marching on still no sign of Fox now reduced to eating the children's sweets that one of my colleagues has got in her bag. Then, all of a sudden, the front door opens. But it's a woman. We decide if we can't confirm Fox is inside, we're not going to knock. Whoever is home could alert him before we get a chance to speak to him ourselves.

It's now dark, about seven o'clock. Been stuck outside his flipping house for about eight or nine hours. We've seen no sign of him at all. It's a little bit frustrating. I was hoping that today we could at least get it confirmed that he is actually coming and going regularly. And right now that seems a bit uncertain. Just before calling it a day, Colin goes for one last walk around the street.

So I've just been up to take a quick look round the front and side of Fox's house just to see if there is any signs of life or not. There isn't to be honest but there is one slightly intriguing detail which is that on the front door there is a brass door knocker in the shape of a fox's head which suggests that this is indeed the house where Fox lives. Finally it feels like we're getting closer to Fox. This is World of Secrets. Season five, Finding Mr. Fox. A BBC World Service investigation with me, Yemi Siadigoke. And me, Colin Freeman. Episode 6, What Does the Fox Say? He was very handsome, charismatic.

Meet someone we're calling Sam, a former associate of Fox's. Fun to be around. An associate from Norwich whose words are spoken by an actor to protect his identity. You used to quote a lot of Guy Ritchie movies. You know the ones. The gangster movies with the cool soundtracks, smooth-talking rogues with endlessly quotable dialogue. He really liked Snatch,

and he used to quote things that Brad Pitt's character used to say, you know, in the Irish accent. And he used to quote Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels too. That was the main one. He was quite interested in that sort of personality. That's the sort of lifestyle, you know, skirting around the edge of the law. He would always carry a lot of cash. I don't think he had a lot of cash. I think it's just he carried a lot of cash to make it look like he had a lot of money. You understand what I'm trying to say there?

The name Fox almost sounds like a character from one of these films. Is that a name Sam ever heard him use? No, never. Did he choose it? Seems odd. Maybe Fantastic Mr Fox? Cunning as a fox? He used to call himself Saul. People used to call him Gorgeous George. Now, Gorgeous George definitely sounds like a character from a Guy Ritchie movie. Probably because he was good looking, good with women. As well as finding Fox, we want to understand who George Saul is, and we think Sam can help. is and we think Sam can help. He was always well dressed, always well dressed, always wore a shirt and jeans and brown leather shoes and he was always well groomed you know his facial hair and hairstyling you know he looked after his body from a physical point of view. He's very into

sports, he's very interested in fitness and in martial arts. When I heard he'd sailed to Brazil, I thought, yes, that's him. He was very adventurous. I asked Sam about Fox's military past. He told Brazilian sailor Daniel that he'd served with British forces in Afghanistan. From what I understood, he was in the military. And I tell him about something Daniel had told me, about how he noticed a scar on Fox's stomach,

which Fox said was a result of being shot in Afghanistan. Yeah, that's not true. There's no way. There's no way that's true. Afghanistan, there's no way. When we spoke to Fox's former colleague, Robert Delbos, he told us a different version of this story. Ex-British army took three bullets in the stomach in Africa from a kid with a Kalashnikov. We asked the British Ministry of Defence,

who said they couldn't comment either way. We have been able to confirm another bit of Fox's career history though. He used to work as a doorman in Norwich. I don't think he'd look for trouble. Don't forget he's not the biggest guy on the door so I think the gift of the gab was kind of what got him out of it most of the time but I mean if he had to scrap someone he probably could and I think people respected him because he wasn't just, you know, a brute. Sand describes Fox as being from a good family. Well-spoken, upper middle class. He says Fox was a keen yachtsman

who sailed around the east coast of England in his youth. His dad was a solicitor and apparently at one point Fox started a law course at college, though he never finished it. He seemed like he was off to some sort of career, probably down the line of his father, but he was interested in making, I guess, quick money. There's another reason we wanted to speak to Sam. He has knowledge of the way the Norwich drug scene used to work.

Another reason he wants to remain anonymous. He would buy marijuana from big distributors in the area and then cut it up and give it to certain people who would then distribute it on his behalf. I think he was a little bit lawless in that respect and, you know, quite full of himself and a sort of sense of being untouchable. Sam and other sources I've spoken to make similar claims that Fox became a kind of

marijuana middleman. They say he'd buy large quantities, split it up and sell it on to other dealers, and that at first this was all in the UK. Then Fox started buying it in the Netherlands and bringing it over by boat. He started bringing either marijuana or hashish back. If you look at a map, the Netherlands are only about 100 miles from the east coast of England. Not too much for a keen sailor like Fox. And looking at the Brazilian police files that we got hold of, there's a reference to Fox having been arrested in 2011 when he was picked up by Dutch police on board a yacht with 60 kilos of cannabis.

Police there can't tell us what happened because they no longer have the records but we don't believe he was charged. When did you first find out about what happened on the rich harvest? When I heard that George was wanted by Interpol for attempted smuggling of a lot of cocaine from Brazil, I was, like, gobsmacked. Sam says he hasn't spoken to Fox about the rich harvest, but says he feels sorry for Daniel and Rodrigo

and can imagine how Fox's personality might have won them over. Maybe he lured them into a false sense of security by using his charm and his charisma and his demeanour, which ultimately ended up, as we know, with these young men in trouble. We've spoken to a number of people who knew Fox. None of them wanted us to use their voices, though. Some of them because of their own links to the drug world. And it's hard to know what to make of their claims,

which is another reason why we need to hear what Fox has to say about all of this. So I go back to my colleague Ayam, the social media sleuth, to see if he has any more ideas. Yeah, we thought this was it um but colin unfortunately had a really unsuccessful time of trying to stake out fox i was wondering if you had any ideas what else can we look at to try to find him yeah he's part of a of a business networking organization like he belongs to one of the chapters there in norwich he goes to a meeting Yeah, he's part of a business networking organisation. He belongs to one of the chapters there in Norwich.

He goes to a meeting with them. Do we know, do they meet up? Do we know when they meet up? He's got a profile page on the website of the chapter and on the social media accounts of the chapter, they say that they meet every Thursday morning at 7am in the morning at a hotel in the outskirts of Norwich so we know the location and we know when Fox goes there. That's a really really good lead it's an exact time exact location much better than just sort of waiting outside his house for hours on end. What do Tiger Woods, Mark Zuckerberg and Taylor Swift all have in common? Well, their lives and fortunes are all being discussed on Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring

the minds, motives and the money of some of the world's wealthiest individuals. I'm Zing Zing and each week my co-presenter Simon Jack and I take a closer look at the world's mega rich and we try to decide whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. From celebs and CEOs to spot stars and tech titans, find out how billionaires made their money and how they use it. Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. All episodes of season one and two are available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. And click follow or subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Hey, Yemsi, it's Colin here. Can you hear me? Hey, Colin, yeah, I can Colin here, can you hear me? Hey Colin, yeah I can hear you, can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you loud and clear, yeah. It's Thursday, a cool bright summer morning. Yemesee is sitting in a car with a clear view of the entrance to a hotel car park in the small city of Norwich. I'm waiting in a van parked about 20 metres away, behind some trees. For the last few weeks, we've been planning how we're going to finally approach Fox and ask him about the rich harvest. We want to know his side of this story. A member of our team has been coming down and watching

to see if Ayum's internet research is correct. Has Fox really been attending a business group at a local hotel every week? And yes, Fox has been arriving at the same time, always parking in the same spot ahead of his 7am meeting. Are you in the car sort of ready to spot him if he comes into the hotel? Yep, I'm right in position. I've got really good view of the car sort of ready to spot him if he comes into the hotel? Yep, I'm right in position. I've got a really good view of the car park.

Our plan is to approach him during the short walk he has to make from his car to the hotel entrance. That's a very narrow window of time. And on top of that, we know he always brings his dog. And on top of that, we know he always brings his dog, a Belgian Malinois, a fairly large breed, known for being very protective of their owners. There's a chance it might try to attack us if it thinks we're being threatening. And what about Fox himself?

We know that Fox likes to keep fit. He used to work as a bouncer, likes martial arts. If he felt provoked, might things become physical? It feels a bit nerve-wracking. There's a lot riding on this next quarter of an hour, really. And spending a lot of time preparing for this. We've decided only one of us should make the approach. And that's going to be Colin.

He's all ready with his microphone, clearly marked with the BBC logo, so there's no confusion about who we are. Meanwhile, I'm going to act as a lookout. OK, so he's due to come in in that white Land Rover that we spoke about before, is he? That's the plan, keeping an eye out. OK, all right, well, look, we're parked up just out of sight, so what we'll do is we'll wait for your signal if you see him coming in

and then let us know when he actually gets out the car and we'll try and wander over and ask him a few questions then. Will do. OK, good luck. The pressure is on. OK, good luck. The pressure is on. Our plan hinges on Fox turning up at the same time he always does and parking in the same place.

As the minutes go by, I'm feeling anxious. What if I don't recognise his car? What if I don't notice him coming in and we miss our chance? And he's already late. Uh, Yannis, is there any sign of him yet? He's normally here by now, I think. It's just coming up to 6.45. No, still no sign of him.

Car park is getting busier. His usual spot's been taken. Um, fingers crossed he's just burned his breakfast or something. Yeah, OK, well, uh, yeah, I think the meeting starts at 7, so he should be here in another couple of minutes if he's turning up. OK, cheers. It's hard to concentrate. I keep running through all the questions I want to ask him,

but then getting distracted by all the ways this might go wrong. There's plenty of comings and goings, though, so let's just hope the fox turns up. Guys, he's just driving in. White Land Rover. Just about to reverse into the parking spot. All right, thanks. This is it. We're on.

Walking towards you. Stand by. Tracksuit, white trainers, got a black bag with him, but he should be with you within the next 30 seconds, so stand by. All right, okay, right, cheers, we're gonna get going. It's time to get out the van. Colin manages to reach Fox, just meters from where he's parked his car.

He looks older and a little grayer than in photos with Rodrigo and Daniel, but it's unmistakably him. Excuse me, for the BBC. At first, he looks relaxed. He smiles politely at Colin, this random man who appears to be making conversation. Until, that is, he hears what we want to talk to him about. I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions about your yacht, the Rich Harvest. No. His whole body seems to tense up. Can you explain why more than a tonne of cocaine was found on board it back in 2017?

Go away. Seriously. Brazilian police say that you are an international drug trafficker. Well, I'm not, so... And that you masterminded this operation to put a tonne of cocaine on the Rich Harvest boat. At this point, Fox stops making his way towards the hotel entrance and turns back the way he came, towards his car. Listen, I'm not doing this, so I'm not here to talk to you.

There were four sailors, innocent sailors, who went to prison as a result of the drugs that were found on that boat. Guys, this is such a strange... Do you accept that that was your fault? This is such a strange... You're walking away. Is that what you do if trouble takes place?

Have you got any remorse over what happened? Would you consider going back to Brazil to face justice there? There's a case to answer there, isn't there? We've got the wrong individual. Sorry, carry on. We're here to listen. Yeah, I'm not here to talk I'm afraid. If you want, you've probably got your own version of events here. If you want to give us your side of the story, you're welcome to.

Right, he's driving off. Didn't want to talk. It's all over in the blink of an eye, but our hearts are racing. So much buildup, and suddenly it's over. We write to Fox outlining all the allegations against him, offering him another chance to respond. We email. We text. But he never responds.

Whatever his version of events, he won't talk to us, which won't be of much comfort to Brazilian sailor Rodrigo. I hope that justice will be served. That's the only thing I hope for. The problem is, Fox is in the UK. The cocaine was put on the rich harvest in Brazil. British law enforcement doesn't usually have the jurisdiction to arrest someone on suspicion of drug smuggling crimes

committed abroad. Unless the Brazilian authorities put in a formal extradition request. But both the Brazilian Ministry of Justice and the UK Home Office, which would handle any such request, have told us that the process is confidential, so they can't comment. And anyway, the extradition process can be long and complicated. And British courts have turned down some requests from Brazil on human rights grounds. Prisons there are notoriously overcrowded and violent with poor

healthcare. When we contacted the National Crime Agency, they told us that they were unaware of Fox having committed any crimes in the UK and that there was no current UK arrest warrant for him. Then there's Interpol, who say they can't tell us if Fox is still wanted by them either. So for now, he's still able to live in Norwich, his hometown. He won't, though, be going to those business breakfasts anymore. The networking group told us that after the allegations against Fox came to light, they spoke to him to get his side of the story. He played his cards close to his chest, they told us that after the allegations against Fox came to light, they spoke to him to get his side of the story. He played his cards close to his chest, they told us, but said that it was all

in his past. As the networking group refers members on for business opportunities, they told him he couldn't continue to be a member. They were sad to see him go, apparently, because he'd made some good friends there. But to use their words, he took it on the chin. Life goes back to normal, right? Or at least that's what I tried to do. There was a feeling of starting over, you know? Back in Brazil, Daniel and Rodrigo were trying to rebuild their lives. I really wanted to be a captain, but I couldn't make that dream come true. I wasn't able to. I was disappointed.

So I had to look for something else. Daniel was forced to abandon his plan to become a professional captain. After leaving prison, he did manage to get a bit of work on boats, taking researchers out on trips to see humpback whales. But it was only for a few months. Instead, he became a driver. I couldn't stay still. I had to do something.

And so I did Uber for a while. And then when the pandemic started, everything changed again. It's a similar story for Rodrigo. I couldn't continue my dream of becoming a delivery skipper. Boat owners, they don't want someone working for them who has been involved with the police or justice system in any way, whether you're innocent or not. So I couldn't continue my life project of travelling the world. And so I had to start again, to look for something new.

But Rodrigo hasn't lost his love for the sea. Today I still work sailing, just in a different way. I take sailing trips, give sailing lessons. But today I work for myself because I'm the only person I can trust. In Brazil, Rodrigo shows me where he learned to sail. This is his actual voice. Explaining in Portuguese that the boat he first learned to sail on looked a bit like a bathtub. As we talk, I can't help but notice his wallet.

It's got a little picture of a boat on it. He says he takes it everywhere. So this wallet here, it was made in prison in Cape Verde. The leather has been stitched together by hand. I thought it was really cool. Pretty. Rather than hiding from his past, Rodrigo accepts his ordeal

is just part of who he is. Yeah, it's part of my story. Of course I went through a lot of bad things in Cape Verde, but a lot of those things also made me grow and become a better person. I think I've left all the suffering behind me and I've learned to value but a lot of those things also made me grow and become a better person. I think I've left all the suffering behind me,

and I've learned to value the little things in life. Today, Daniel is living by the sea, on a remote part of the Brazilian coast, where he's built a house on the edge of a sand dune. He's also discovered a new way to experience adventure, to make the most of his freedom. Kitesurfing. It's a combination, he says, of his true passions,

sailing and surfing. Only, unlike sailing, I don't depend on anyone else to do anything. I can just be at peace by myself. Like Rodrigo, Daniel also now has trouble trusting other people. Good morning. Good morning. And he's also picked up a habit from his old friend, filming everything.

from his old friend, filming everything. Filming the construction of his new home. Documenting life with his wife, he got married in 2022. In February 2023, almost six years since he saw that job advert, the one offering a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to cross the Atlantic on the rich harvest, Daniel was finally cleared. Rodrigo and their Brazilian crewmate Steve, too. Their case was transferred from Cape Verde to Brazil. After considering the evidence gathered by Inspector Andre Gonçalves and the rest of the Brazilian police, the court ordered that all charges be dropped. That was just an explosion of happiness, of pure joy.

It was like a weight had been lifted after all those years. Today, Daniel has a few more grey hairs than when our story began in 2017. But he's still smiling. After everything Daniel's been through, what's his secret? My secret for smiling? You only have one life, right? One of the things I learned from all this is that we only have a little time here. Just one life.

So I don't want to waste it complaining or crying. Daniel pauses to wipe a tear from his eye. You know, after Cape Verde I can't cry anymore when I'm sad. I'd blocked out a lot of feelings.

I used to be a much more emotional person, you know. But thank God it couldn't wipe away my smile. This has been episode six of six of Finding Mr Fox, season five of World of Secrets, from the BBC World Service. We hope you're enjoying World of Secrets. Subscribe or follow now till you get all episodes on our next investigation automatically. And if you haven't already, check out our other seasons.

You can also watch a documentary film about our investigation. You'll find Africa Eye, Finding Mr Fox, on YouTube and on BBC iPlayer. I'm Colin Freeman. And I'm Yemi Siadegoke. The producer is Charlotte MacDonald. The executive producer is Joe Kent. The series editor is Matt Willis. Sound design and mix by Tom Brignall.

Additional production is by Sam, voiced by Jim Frank. The BBC World Service Senior Podcast Producer Frank. Rodrigo by Edison Alcaide. Daniel by Antonio Fernandez. The BBC World Service Senior Podcast Producer is Kat Collins. The Podcast Commissioning Editor is John Manel. Thank you. the podcast exploring the minds, motives and the money of some of the world's wealthiest individuals. I'm Zing Zing and each week my co-presenter Simon Jack and I take a closer look at the world's mega rich

and we try to decide whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. From celebs and CEOs to spot stars and tech titans, find out how billionaires made their money and how they use it. Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. All episodes of season one and two are available now wherever you get your BBC podcasts and click follow or subscribe so you never miss a new episode.