World Of Secrets - Special: World of Secrets live

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Inside the investigation – the story of the journalism behind The Disciples. Hear from the journalists and the whistleblowers about the investigation into TB Joshua. A special episode with season 2 presenters Charlie Northcott and Yemisi Adegoke, producer Rob Byrne, and whistleblowers Rae and Ajoke.Hosted by Hannah Ajala, presenter of "Love, Janessa", and recorded in front of an audience at “World Service Presents” in London.Plus we hear from the presenter of the first season of World of Secrets, Rianna Croxford, about how she investigated allegations of sexual exploitation made against the former CEO of fashion giant Abercrombie and Fitch. Season 2 of World of Secrets is a story of miracles, faith and manipulation – the cult of Nigerian prophet, TB Joshua. Watch the Africa Eye TV documentaries about the investigation: https://bit.ly/BBCDisciples Content warning: This episode contains references to sexual, physical and psychological abuse.If you've been affected by any of the issues in this podcast, please contact support organisations in your own country. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk/actionline If you are suffering distress and need support, details of help available in many countries can be found at Befrienders Worldwide: www.befrienders.org

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello everyone and welcome to this special extra episode of The World of Secrets, the BBC podcast that brings you major global investigations and gripping storytelling. And this is our very first World of Secrets Live. I'm Hannah Ajala and we are recording this episode in front of an audience of around 100 people at the BBC's Radio Theatre here in the heart of London Now originally called the Concert Hall, it's an impressive art deco theatre that's a grand and very suitable location

for BBC World Service Presents, a celebration of what we do. Now, this special episode is going to take you behind the scenes of our journalism. Season two of World of Secrets was the story of the disciples, an investigation by the BBC World Service into the cult of the Nigerian pastor T.B. Joshua, the founder of the Synagogue Church of All Nations, or properly known as SCOAN. It's a story of miracles, faith, and manipulation, told by people from around the world who gave up everything for one of the most powerful religious figures in African history. We'll also hear a little bit about the first season, the BBC investigation into claims of

sexual exploitation made against the former CEO of fashion giant Abercrombie & Fitch. Now this special episode is about trying to lift the lid on our investigative journalism and just a warning to our listeners that because of the nature of these investigations, the episode contains references to physical, psychological or sexual abuse. But first, in case you haven't heard it or it's been a while, let's have a taste of the start

of the opening episode of our second season. We're in Lagos, Nigeria, and everything is going wrong. This argument is happening in front of a compound with 12-foot-high walls guarded by a group of men. And one of them has a gun. They're trying to force me to hand over my camera, evidence of what's been going on behind those walls. If you want to remove any footage from the BBC, you'll need a lawyer,

and you'll need to get a court order. Over 100 people died inside this place. Countless lives have been destroyed, and nobody knows the truth. Don't give me the shit of saying I'm going to go to jail. and nobody knows the truth. This compound isn't a prison, it's a church. And the man who built it is one of the most powerful religious figures of the century. A man with something to hide. You know people don't want you to do a story when they come at you.

With a gun. This is World of Secrets. Season 2. The Disciples. This story is like a horror story. It's like something you watch in fiction. But it's true. A BBC World Service investigation with me, Charlie Northcote. And me, Yemi Siadegoke.

What an opener. Now, I remember watching this the tv documentary first followed by the podcast me and my partner who met in lagos nigeria thought okay let's let's just watch one episode and you know over time we'll we'll watch the rest we literally binged it all and that was the same for the podcast. So I can't wait to hear how this investigation was pulled together, the behind the scenes and more. So everybody please put your hands together to welcome our panel. As we just heard the podcast series is hosted by Charlie Northcott, to my left, who also produced an accompanying TV documentary with African Eye and Yemesi Adegoke.

They're joined today by Rob Byrne from BBC Studios Audio, who was the producer on the podcast. And of course, later we will be joined by another two very special guests. Charlie, we're going to go straight to the beginning. Finding this story in the first place, how was that? I mean, I don't want you to, you know, compromise your sources, but was it basically someone getting in touch with you? Well, the sources are in this room, actually, but it was a story that came to us. It wasn't one that we necessarily went out and looked for, but it was something that had been on our radar for a long time. I think anyone who's done investigative work in Nigeria in the

last 20 years had heard of T.P. Joshua, had heard stories, quite disturbing stories, about what was rumoured to be going on there, but nothing concrete had ever come through until Ray and Annika decided to reach out to us. And we sat down and spoke to them, and they shared with us the most astonishing and disturbing testimony I've ever heard. In Ray's case, she'd spent her entire kind of youth essentially trapped inside a compound, witnessing and experiencing horrific

abuse by one of the most powerful religious figures on the African continent. And so our job then generalistically was sort of twofold. One is, can we verify what these two people are saying is true? And number two, if these people are telling the truth, how can we keep these sources safe? This story in particular, what was it about this story that made you think, OK, this is the one? It's firstly the shocking testimony that we heard from Ray and Annika.

But it's also, I think, the accountability It's firstly the shocking testimony that we heard from Ray and Annika. But it's also, I think, the accountability and the significance of T.B. Joshua himself. It's hard sitting in a room in London to really give a sense of how powerful and important this man was. But, you know, he had one of the largest followings on social media of any Christian organization in the world. It was an organization that had at least nine African presidents patronizing or visiting or spending time in it. And it was pulling in millions of followers around the world. So to hear that behind the scenes, this man is secretly torturing people in a compound, sexually abusing, raping, forcing people to have abortions, it's incredibly shocking and horrific

and you want to get to the bottom of it the other factor you know at play particularly on the safety issue was you know some of the sources told us right from from the offset that they'd faced threats someone showed us images of when they'd been allegedly beaten up by members of the church beaten to a pulp and they claimed that you, the police were involved in this process. So, you know, they were making allegations of a form of kind of state capture by this church. Like it was involved in silencing people who tried to speak out about the abuses and that there were authorities potentially involved in facilitating that. So it was a story of enormous significance.

And yeah, it took two years to get to the bottom of it. Gosh, and that's two years of just coming across the most triggering kind of stories. And I'm sure for the many people that had watched and listened, it covers on so many personal issues. And I can't help but think about the careful considerations that took place during that process like how did you navigate that? Yeah I mean it's safety on a physical front but also on a mental health front for everyone involved. In order for us to understand what happened, we have to ask people

what happened. And that means them having to open up about, in most cases, the worst thing that ever happened to them, to someone who they don't really know. That is an incredibly traumatic, difficult, and frightening thing to do. And we had to build a lot of trust and a lot of support and infrastructure also in terms of psychological support to make sure that people felt that they could do that safely in many cases people hadn't been believed when they tried to speak it out before and so you're trying to strike this balance this difficult balance I think journalistically between being compassionate and empathetic and trying to help people but also trying to really drill down into the truth. You know, memories can become cloudy

and difficult with time and particularly with trauma. So there's this challenge of having to cross-verify everything that's being said. One of the ways we did that was to try and create separate pools of sources because we were talking, once we got into it, of, you know, more than 20 people who had allegations. We divided them essentially into national groups. So former British disciples, former Nigerian disciples, former South African disciples. And we didn't let those different groups know that we were in communication with the others. And the purpose of that is to try and avoid cross-contamination of the testimony. It means we can ask people who were there, what did you experience knowing that no one is influencing that testimony and and and knowing also that that is an independent

testimony that's corroborating the others and that's where we we came to this extraordinary kind of eureka moment where we realized that there were people who were in this place in this compound at different spaces in time spanning 20 years telling us almost identical stories about a modus operandi a format of abuse and the kind of abuses that were taking place and that's the point of verification that's the point where you know this is more than just this person's story this is this is becoming fact and yeah that was the evidential threshold the legal threshold we needed to get over in order to publish such massive allegations against such a rich, powerful institution. Yeah. And this investigation is happening in a very special country called Nigeria.

Yeah, Missy, I know you have a lot of experience on working and stories in Nigeria for the most part of the past decades and I smile because of course it's somewhere that's close to home and again comes with lots of challenges navigating it especially when it comes to religion how did you find that process? Yes it is a very interesting and special country that I have worked in for over a decade. I mean, it's tough. Nigeria is a really tough environment in terms of reporting freely. It's becoming tougher and tougher to do that. And when you are talking about religious figures, when you're talking about people with power, with money, with influence, it becomes even more challenging. And in this particular case I mean I remember when

Charlie first told me he was looking into this and I was just like are you being serious like I couldn't believe it when he said this it was an incredible story but the risk was massive the people who were in country and out of country that were coming and sharing their testimony going up against this type of figure and I know that Charlie's saying for people who are not in Nigeria it's difficult to get across just how powerful this person was how influential how much money he had and yeah I mean journalists in Nigeria face a lot of intimidation harassment threats as BBC journalists we have a degree of protection to a degree but as you heard in the first clip not entirely so it was a massive risk to do this and you mentioned it's all about the lens isn't it like someone that is in Nigeria could receive it completely different to thousands of miles away here in in London when this story

broke how well known was it in Nigeria in comparison to the rest of the world so as Charlie said there had been people that had been speaking up about this man for a long time the general consensus was that there's something strange going there but the fact that he was a philanthropist or that's the way he portrayed himself that he was you know giving away to the needy offering these so-called miracles to people. We're thinking maybe he's a bit strange, but, you know, he's offering services that the Nigerian government is not doing and no one else is, you know, offering us this sort of support, this sort of help. And since nobody can prove anything, then, you know, we'll just, we'll go along with it. So there were always rumours, but nothing concrete, nothing that stuck.

There were always rumours, but nothing concrete, nothing that stuck. Yeah, and I guess when it came to the interview stages before you were asking the hard questions, how did it feel for you personally being involved in that and hearing just these experiences that they had to endure for years? It's always weird, like, you know, as journalists, you never want to be the kind of story, like, it's not about you, but, you know, this is something that's happening in Nigeria. I was brought up Christian, I wasn't a follower of TB Joshua's church, but I know people that have been, all these types of things.

He's been such a strong cultural figure in Nigeria. And hearing these sorts of testimonies, it was absolutely shocking. As Charlie said, some of the most harrowing testimony I've ever heard. And I was honestly just, and still am, in complete awe of the people who actually spoke up. How tough that was to go on record, to come out, you know, with their names, with their identities, to put that in the public domain was so brave. And seeing the response, you know, like a lot of pastors in Nigeria, there's this idea of touch not my anointed.

You know, you don't go after big religious figures. They are essentially mini gods on earth. And TB Joshua was one of the most influential, one of the most powerful that there was. And for them to be able to come and expose him for what he truly was, was immensely powerful and sparked so many conversations. I mean, for this investigation to kind of get people having those conversations

and at least looking at religion through a slightly more critical lens, I think has been really, really powerful. Rob, obviously, as you know, this started off as a TV investigation and you were part of the team that made it work into a podcast. What were the challenges of that? I mean, there were challenges, but I mean,

Charlie and the team had done hours and hours of interviews already. It was just about listening through to that. And I think there was something like 50 hours worth that I listened through to and then just working out how you're going to construct it into a narrative that kind of fits the podcast format the sort of ways in which you tell stories that people are accustomed to and trying to find the best that sounds obvious but the best bits right and then once you've got your best bits like the shooting sounds strange to call shooting the best but you know that is a that's a hugely dramatic bit of audio that we were able to get into the podcast

that you guys didn't use for the television documentary and I think that's a good example of the difference of the two mediums is that you know there are those moments and the kind of workings of the investigation that you're trying to pepper through alongside the sort of narrative of the main characters and the other sort of I guess challenge is when you've got so many powerful interviews which which they were working out what what you're going to have to lose, unfortunately, because the manner in which you listen to a podcast is different to a TV documentary. This was one without a narrator, where you're led by the contributors, and they're giving kind of more succinct answers often, and you're bouncing from contributor to contributor to

contributor, and you can do that because they're in vision, whereas in a podcast, you can't hold all of those people in your mind, you't see them you can't visualize them so you've got to strip that back a little bit and I think also just trying to be true to how the investigation unfolded as well there's one quite funny story about the gunshot actually that I'd quite like to share so that that night it was it was obviously a distressing incident they actually unloaded an AK-47 above our heads and it clipped the wall just above us and took a bit of chip off the top of the wall. And we're lucky that we didn't get clipped.

And they were doing it to intimidate us to try and force us to hand over our material, which we refused to do. And so they, after that, commandeered us at gunpoint, took over our car, forced us to the local police station. And through contacts and and some some help we managed to eventually get get released but that night I gave my wife a call to kind of let her know what had happened and um spoke to her on the phone and she'd had a really

frustrating day at work and she just unloaded everything to me over the phone at work and it got to the end of the conversation. I just hadn't mentioned it. So I just said, okay, night, speak to you tomorrow. I just left it and just didn't go there. So she didn't actually find out until like a couple of days later. Thank you for these brilliant contributions. Teamwork really makes the dream work.

Now, The Disciples is the second series for the BBC's World of Secrets podcast, and there are five more currently in the works. So that's a bit of inside scoop. It would be great to reflect back for a moment on the first season, which launched in October last year, and investigated claims of sexual exploitation made against the former CEO of fashion brand Abercrombie & Fitch, Mike Jeffries, and his partner, who are accused of hosting sex events around the world.

Rihanna Croxford led the investigation and hosted this series and is somewhere in the audience today. There she is. Hi, Rihanna. So if we were to look into your investigation, where did it begin and was it with a tip off? I wish it was a tip off. It all began with a phone call back in January 2021. I was researching the fashion industry when I spotted a cryptic post on Instagram. It was a group of male models talking about how they felt abuse against men in the industry was being ignored, that there was almost a deafening silence around it. And I reached out to one of the men who had commented, a man named Barrett Paul, and we ended up talking on the phone for an hour. And suddenly there was a big shift in tone.

for an hour and suddenly there was a big shift in tone and he told me that he felt he could trust me with a secret he'd never really told anyone before and that's how I first learned about Mike Jeffries and his partner Matthew Smith and these allegations that they had exploited young men for sex through what was described as a slick operation involving a network of recruiters and a middleman. Wow okay so once you'd found that out where did you go from there like the you know the next steps and to get into production mode? It was really tricky what was hard about this story was that there was absolutely nothing in the public domain about it. Usually when I look into stories, I can find leads online, on social media, in newspaper archives, in court records. But here there was nothing.

And I remember thinking, how could I ever stand this up? You know, is this true? And what was unusual was that Mike Jeffries was a really well-known figure. He'd run Abercrombie for 22 years. He had turned the company from fashion backwater into a multi-billion dollar success story. But he'd also been quite controversial. You know, during his time he'd faced claims of discrimination, concerns about his expenses. So I thought there would be something there, but there wasn't. And so it was quite old school.

It started through word of mouth. Barrett Poole suggested a few names of men who he thought might know more, though he wasn't really certain. I started writing handwritten letters, crafting social media messages. I reached out to hundreds of former Abercrombie models. And after some time, started to hear more allegations of abuse, fe wnes i ddod i lawr i hynny o ffyrdd o fodelau Abercrombie yn ôl, ac ar ôl rhai amser, fe wnes i glywed mwy o ddewisiadau o ddiffyg, ond hefyd fe wnes i ddarganfod ddiweddaraeth, ddiweddaraeth ddocumentaidd, sy'n cefnogi'r dystiolaethau o ffyrdd o ddiffyg.

Fe wnes i ddod o hyd i flyneddau, e-bostau, eithonogion digwyddiadau, ac yn gyda'i gilydd, fe wnes i ddangos bod yna cynllun gwybodaeth gyda thau digwyddiadau with events held in cities like London, New York, Marrakesh over nearly a decade between 2009 and 2015. Yeah, it really grew and grew. Yeah, and I was just listening to the first episode and it's a young man that's speaking to you and is opening up and I guess it's that thing about

the vulnerability of contributors what did you need to consider whilst you know working with him he was very open expressive but you know it was quite graphic stuff he was telling you absolutely the men were so brave in speaking out and also being so vulnerable you know I feel like we rarely hear men talk so openly about their their feelings and their experiences like that and anytime somebody tells me about a difficult experience like abuse I always try and be as open and clear as possible I'm often conscious that they are describing events to me where they have felt powerless or events that were beyond yn ymwybodol eu bod nhw'n disgrifio digwyddiadau i mi lle maen nhw wedi teimlo'n ddim o ddifrif neu digwyddiadau sy'n fwy na'u rheoli ac nid wyf am ddysgu'r ddynamig hwnnw. Rwy'n hoffi eu hymddygiadu,

gwella'r gwybodaeth, mae'n eu penderfyniad, nid yw'r rhain wedi'u llwyr. Rwy'n hoffi rhoi'r amser iddyn nhw teimlo, os ydyn nhw am ddweud eu stori, y gallan nhw wneud hynny. Gallai fod yn ddifrif, siarad, mynd yn gyho cyhoedd, defnyddio eich enw, eich llais, mynd ar y record fel hynny. Felly, y peth bwysig yw, rwy'n bob amser yn gofyn, beth mae eich rhwydwaith cefnogi chi? Pwy ydych chi wedi'i ddweud?

Ydych chi'n rhywun rydych chi'n ei ddweud? Ac yn ffodus, roedd llawer o'r menywod wedi dweud, eu gweithwyr, eu partneriaid, am ymgyrchiadau o ddiffyg. Felly, yn wir, roedd yn asesu eu hangenau unigol, a sicrhau fy mod i wedi cynnal their partners about these allegations of abuse and so really it was assessing their individual needs and ensuring that I maintained open dialogue and consistent dialogue with them at all times because it is a nerve-wracking process going up against someone who is so powerful you know they were they were terrified of also not being believed because of the fact that there was

nothing about this in the public domain so it was a journey for all of us. Gosh, and it's definitely a podcast worth listening to. I'm sure she's definitely sold it to everyone there. So thank you so much for that, Rihanna. And thank you, everyone, for staying here with us. Coming up, I'll be joined on stage by two of the whistleblowers, two of those who decided to tell the world what happened to them. For just as long as Hollywood has been Tinseltown,

there have been suspicions about what lurks behind the glitz and glamour. Concerns about radical propaganda in the motion pictures. And for a while, those suspicions grew into something much bigger and much darker. Are you a member of the Communist Party? Or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? I'm Una Chaplin, and this is Hollywood Exiles. It's about a battle for the political soul of America, and the battlefield was Hollywood.

All episodes of Hollywood Exiles from the BBC World Service and CBC are available now. Search for Hollywood Exiles wherever you get your podcasts. so as we've already discussed our journalists can't bring these important investigations to life without people with lived experience coming forward more than 25 former disciples spoke to the bbc world service from the uk nigeria us South Africa, Ghana, Namibia and Germany, each giving a powerful corroborating testimony about their experiences within the cult of TB Joshua. Now among them was Ray-Anne Adjokere, who I'd like to welcome on the stage here with us now. We've been talking a lot backstage and yeah, just really, really warmed to have them join us here right now. So Ray spent 12 years as one of TB Joshua's disciples inside his compound in Lagos after being recruited by the church from the UK.

Adjokia, who's beside Ray, is one of TB Joshua's daughters who was forced to become a disciple at seven years old. Let's hear a little bit of you both from the podcast now. We're talking about years and years of abuse, just beatings, beatings and more beatings. I didn't even have time to recover from one before another one was happening. And even if I had recovered from one, another one was happening. Nobody was listening. Nobody was trying to help. Why did no-one do anything about it? Can you explain how could these people be so cruel

to allow this to all happen? I think... ..to understand it fully, you've got to understand how coerced people were there it's not an excuse it's just a fact but it was like it's like you become numb like you see so much of this stuff it's like you know if people want to talk about what happened in the war in World War II there was no justification. Terrible crimes were committed. And some people came forward after and said, I don't know what the hell I was doing. I don't know why I did that. Why did I think that was okay? And this is the power of totalism. And people who

know how to manipulate the mind of another person should not be walking in the public domain. We all thought we were in heaven, but we were in hell and in hell, terrible things happen. That was an incredibly powerful and open testimony shared by Ray and Adjokia. So Ray, I'll hand it over to you. Maybe you could start by explaining how you first became involved in this World Service investigation. So I think, first of all, to say it wasn't just me, Annika, who's somewhere there. We'd been searching for years for somebody to listen to these stories. I think I had been out of the cult for about eight years or so. of the cult for about eight years or so.

And finally, I met with Charlie along with Annika and we shared our stories. And there was a guy who listened. And, you know, I'll never be able to say thank you enough to him along with all the others for taking the time to believe us, to just have that ear. We heard a moment ago by our brilliant production team just about the effort that they put into their work, ensuring that the stories being told are true and accurate.

How challenging was it for you to trust them with your story? Like this person from the BBC has contacted you and said hey we want to tell your story like how receptive were you to that we'll go with Ray first we'll go to Jackie um I think the desire for truth was greater than the fear I think the trust came through kind of just the simplicity of integrity. When I met with Charlie and Annika and I were chatting over a bowl of chips, of which I didn't seem to eat many from what I remember, Charlie, Charlie's response and the response of his colleague that was there at the time was so genuine. They were so moved. And it's almost like all of that voice of fear inside of you, you know,

don't trust journalists or they're well dodgy, you know, you can't trust them. Like that voice is going on here. But the response that we're seeing, the questions, the fact that they were so moved, it was like, I want to say it was like that connection was there right from the beginning. It was like, these guys are actually genuine genuine we've actually finally found the good guys and to be sincere that was like the journey through the whole project it was incredible I mean this team was amazing then we got to meet um MC and Rob and Georgia who's at the back to do the whole project and it was just incredible everyone worked together as a team took great care to make sure that we were all okay and it was a bit of a roller coaster but yeah I think it was human I think that's what made

it possible it was a human experience on all sides just to add to what Ray said I mean I and Charlie like sometimes now discuss about the very first day I met with Charlie it was a very rainy day and I remember the conversation as a one-way traffic and that was not because I don't know how to manage conversations but it was more along the line of I had almost met someone who for the first time did beyond just hear he listened he was concerned and he was genuine with his emotions and I was the one in pain but I could see reflection of tears in Charlie's eyes and in those moments I was just like oh my god I felt very connected to his truth and I was very very happy to tell him my side of the truth as well. We were in Lagos in Nigeria in this crappy hotel and it was like you said it was pouring with rain

but the thing that was special for me was I'd had multiple people tell me in interview that they did not believe you were alive. There were people who thought you were dead and you'd been missing for a long time since you'd escaped from the church. Jockey had been out on the streets, cast out, and yeah, we weren't sure we'd ever find you, and we were told by quite a few people that we wouldn't. And so to actually see you face to face was a moment of like an incredible moment for me,

and I will never forget you standing there in the pouring rain at sort of 10 p.m. at night. Yeah. And you spoke for about eight hours straight. Straight. Without breathing. Straight. Like a cow.

But, you know, it was, I mean, I remember you showing me the scars on your body from the beatings you received. I remember you showing me text message evidence of people who'd left that place and felt guilty about what they'd done to you, trying to apologise to you. And it's just this incredible moment of realising this lost daughter of TV Joshua is real. And her testimony is unbelievable and shocking. And you are alive. And keeping you alive for the rest of it was a challenge too.

I know, I know, I know. I'm so thankful to be honest. And I cannot say it enough how much humanity is shown through throughout this documentary. And there were times where the chances were really high I wouldn't make it over the line. I had lost touch psychologically I'd lost touch myself on different skills but to just be surrounded by people who not only believe your

story but also believe your person and see so much potential in everything you can be it just meant that as much as I had given up on myself, there had been strength that had come from people who were invested in the idea that I could be everything that I so wanted to be. And I can't help but think about all of those years, right, that you had to revisit and share, you know, from those first initial chats with Charlie to then, you know, sharing it on camera.

Did you feel as though there were any internal battles, as though you were betraying TB Joshua? I mean, it's very easy to feel that way and it's very easy. But the truth is you have to understand where your loyalty lies. And where your loyalty lies to the truth is you have to understand where your loyalty lies. And where your loyalty lies to the truth and to humanity, which is people around you. And I feel like something Emisi and Charlie have explained really well has been how much of a powerful figure this was. So you understand that it went beyond a religious level to a political level.

When your loyalty lies to the truth and to see people free from this locked-up mentality, fear is dead on arrival. It's dead on arrival. What about yourself, Rae? I didn't feel any loyalty at all to the cult leader i felt loyalty to all the people who were still trapped in various circumstances and situations who weren't permitted to speak i mean we have a handful of powerful, strong people who managed to fight the

fight to tell the truth, but there were others due to circumstance or still due to the fact that they're trapped in fear, weren't able to come out publicly and speak. And so I think it's really important to note that there's two of us here on the stage this evening, but we literally are just like two people representing hundreds and some of those still can't speak because what happened to them was so difficult did I have loyalty to him absolutely no no that was not a difficult decision for me I feel like years of betrayed loyalty loyalty to some things that was deceptive damaging dangerous I think my time with that was done and it was a case of being able to speak that truth and get people to listen so yeah yeah I sit more on that that

camp I guess and I guess when we when we talk about freedom right it's subjective and I'd love to know right would you say it was something you felt strongly about when you left or when this message was shared with the world at what point did you truly feel free oh Hannah that is a juicy question I love talking about it's getting so deep right now we'll be here all night so you can you know know. Yeah, I don't know. I think freedom. Like for me, I think understanding that physically we were all in a cult. At what point do you leave is a really good question to ask. I always tell people I left in 2013 physically. Mentally, when did I gain freedom? I'm still busy gaining it, people. This stuff takes time. Thought reform takes like, you know, three or four days, but it'll then take three or four decades to undo. So I think for me, freedom resides in your mind. And it's a battle every day to ensure

that you're upholding that freedom, that you're seeking it, and then you're not getting taken down a pathway that is narrow-minded or too black and white, I guess. So, yeah, I think freedom's for the taking, right? It's in front of all of us in all different areas, and I'm still working that out. Yeah, of course, it's still a process. One thing I'd love to say that just makes me respect all of you who've spoken out so much, and I want other people to know

when reflecting on the bravery of speaking out is the extent to which in the place that you were, it was drilled into you constantly that you should never speak about what you went through inside. And that if you do speak about what goes on inside, there will be consequences. And the reality is all of you have faced consequences

since you left. You know, psychological consequences. You lost your education. You lost your, you know, your youth in a lot of cases. You lost family members. So you lost so much. And again, in choosing to speak out, we've seen an incredible explosion of online abuse, targeting the people

who've come out from people who appear on the surface to have religious affiliations with TV Joshua. And that has chased you guys and followed you guys. And still you're standing here and you're on a stage choosing to make the decision to speak out despite that you know most of us never ever have to deal even as journalists with that level of abuse that you guys have had to deal with I don't know that deserves a round of applause more than the journalists thank you so much and thankfully we do have more questions that will be coming from you. We've got two awesome people with mics that are jogging around. So if you'd like to ask a question, please raise your hand and they will come to you.

When I watch that documentary, because I'm from Nigeria, I grew up in Nigeria, TV Joshua, Emmanuel TV was one of the TV stations we all watched growing up. So many stories we watch on the TV regarding to the miracles and his philanthropies giving to the people was something that was so very very motivating because this person was kind that was a picture we all saw when that story came out it was a very big shock to everybody we all thought this person is like this. And people have a different perception about a story. People have a different view about a story. When I checked the comments people made on that story, people said, why did it take so long?

Everybody began to ask themselves, okay, is this story true? Okay, was this what really happened I think it created some kind of confusion in the mind of so many people and also gave a clarity to some other people but there are still so many people who are still not sure, who are still doubting, who still need more clarity. On the issue of doubt, when you have more than 20 people speaking on the record about abuse, and you spent two and a half years verifying the material, it boils down to the faith of those individuals and whether they're willing to question a religious figure of that prominence. and whether they're willing to question a religious figure of that prominence.

And it's less about, I think, the facts being presented and more about the state of religion. I mean, I don't know whether you could comment on that. Yeah, I mean, I think you've said that. I think also another one of the comments that I saw was, why is this now coming out now that he's dead? And it was really frustrating because the investigation started when he was still alive and he passed while the evidence was being gathered. I think it's exactly what Charlie said. I mean, you're not going to be able to convince everybody of everything,

but the evidence is quite clear. I think it's quite damning. It's extensive. It's taken, you know, this has been abuse that's been perpetrated over decades. People that were at the church at different times who don't know each other from a variety of countries. To me, it's a very, very plain case. And I think for a lot of people, because of the way religious figures are revered in Nigeria, it's going to be very, very difficult for them

to see it from any other perspective other than it being a witch hunt. But the evidence, again, is extensive. This question... Thank you very much. I'd like to respond to my colleague. I'm Nigerian as well. One of the reasons why it takes a while to release documentaries is that it takes a while.

You have to spend a lot of time. So the question we should be asking is, did it happen? If it happened, what does it matter when the documentary is released I think that's a question we should be asking it's happened and they've done the work and this this ladies and others are so bold enough you know with audacity to come out and talk and we should commend them thank you we do have someone in the audience that we'd love to hear from and it's uh annika a former member of the church if you just have any comments we just love to hear from you as you're here of course i think it's very uh apt that this podcast is called world of secrets and i think uh

what i'm going to say will go towards what the gentleman asked and is that this was something we lived with individually. You know, there was that fear of speaking out, even to each other, of not being believed. And that is to do with the coercion that happened. And coming together and hearing each other's stories would not have been possible without the BBC investigation team. And it's been absolutely incredible.

And I am so immensely proud of everybody but also you know I was having people coming up to me saying congratulations this is wonderful we're so proud of you but you know what I want to throw that back onto the BBC investigation team and say thank you so much for giving us a voice when we didn't have a voice. Because as that gentleman has said, why didn't you come out before? Where could we go? We tried for years and no one believed us. It had to be this time when we all could come together.

And thank goodness that the BBC gave us that platform. And I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. Thank you. form and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart thank you before we go I should say that the BBC approached the synagogue church of all nations with the allegations made in the disciple series they didn't offer a response or address any of the claims directly but in an earlier email told us that making unfounded allegations against prophet tbB. Joshua is not a new occurrence. None of the allegations was ever substantiated.

Thank you all so much for being part of World of Secrets Live here at World Service Presents in London. If you haven't listened, all nine episodes of our second season of The Disciples is available right now, as are all eight episodes of the Abercrombie Guys that we heard about from Rihanna Croxford. Look out for Charlie Northcott's next investigation in season three of The World of Secrets, which begins in July, and Yemisi Adegoke's next investigation in season four, a couple of months or so after that. Please make sure you follow or subscribe to World of Secrets, and then you'll get both of these and all future seasons automatically

and from all of us at BBC Radio Theatre in London, thank you for listening. I'm Hannah Jalla. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. World of Secrets, The Disciples, is by the BBC World Service. I'm Hannah Ajala, and the producer of this live show is Becca Bryars. For just as long as Hollywood has been Tinseltown, there have been suspicions about what lurks behind the glitz and glamour.

Concerns about radical propaganda in the motion pictures. And for a while, those suspicions grew into something much bigger and much darker. Are you a member of the Communist Party? Or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? I'm Una Chaplin, and this is Hollywood Exiles. It's about a battle for the political soul of America, and the battlefield was Hollywood. All episodes of Hollywood Exiles,

from the BBC World Service and CBC, are available now. Search for Hollywood Exiles wherever you get your podcasts.