World Of Secrets - The Abercrombie Guys: 6. Inside the Operation

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Do you know how much money I was getting paid?" A former assistant who travelled with The Abercrombie Guys agrees to talk: "They were trying to act so perfect,” he says - what could they have been hiding?”Have you got a story to tell? Email [e-mail]. Let us know what you think of the season using the hashtag #WorldofSecretsThis podcast refers to sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language. If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organisations in your own country. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse, go to bbc.co.uk/actionline.World of Secrets: Season 1 - The Abercrombie Guys is presented and investigated by Rianna Croxford Series Producers: Ruth Evans and Alys Harte Senior Producer: Emma Close Development Producer: Hannah Livingston Investigation Editor: Ed Campbell Podcast Editor: Richard Fenton-Smith Executive Editor: Emma Rippon Studio Engineers: Neil Churchill, Andy Fell, Gareth Jones, and Ali Rezakhani Production Coordinators: Debbie Richford and Sophie Hill Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Executive: Louise Kattenhorn Assistant Commissioner: Natasha Johansson This podcast is made in collaboration with BBC Panorama. If you are in the UK, you can watch Panorama: The Abercrombie Guys: The Dark Side of Cool on BBC iPlayer now, or on BBC Select if you are in the in the US. World of Secrets: Season 1 - The Abercrombie Guys is a BBC Long Form Audio production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, thanks for listening to World of Secrets. I'm Rhianna Croxford, and before we start, I wanted to let you know that this episode contains very strong language. Rolling. Take two, Mark. Ready? It's been almost two and a half years since my first phone call with Barrett Paul.

The call that sparked this entire investigation. When we hung up, I had no idea where this was going to lead. But I've slowly been connecting the dots. The scale of this operation is bigger than I think I understand still. It's part of a well-oiled machine. Mike Jeffries is at the centre of as a pyramid, which means that there's a base that's holding it up. It was Barrett who first led me to unearth a paper

trail of evidence of what appears to be a slick operation run for the Abercrombie guys. It says, you know, Barrett clearly addressed to me, thanks for being able to come for the event on Saturday, May 7th in the Hamptons. This is the first of several itineraries I've managed to get my hands on, sent by the middleman Jim. Together, they paint a picture of an operation on an international scale. Events hosted by Mike Jeffries, the former CEO of Abercrombie & Fitch, and his partner Matthew Smith, not just at their home in the Hamptons. London, April 5th, 2010. David, thank you for being able to go to London to see Michael and Matthew. Make sure that your name is the same as your valid passport.

Here's your itinerary. Matthew and Michael will be staying at the La Mamunia Hotel in Marrakesh. Please remember, this is not the US and it is not Europe. Customs and laws are different. Along with Barrett, David and Alex, I've spoken to five more men who attended these events. That's eight in total. The other men, for their own reasons, didn't want to go public about their experience. What they give is an extraordinary insight into what appears to be a highly organized and efficient network. Unless you hear differently, the festivities will begin at noon on April 5th. Please be there on time. And then in bold, capital, black letters, it says,

if we have not been in touch and we have not heard from you, we will be forced to send a standby. been in touch and we have not heard from you, we will be forced to send a standby. Please leave your cell phone ringer on. Capitalized. On their way to visit the Abercrombie guys, all of the men I've spoken to say they encountered an army of support staff. From drivers. I was picked up and put in a luxury SUV. To body groomers. They shave your entire body like with a razor because they like smooth people. I was like, that's freaking weird. To the houseman who handed out poppers in lube. He was a private secretary to them. Their private sex secretary. All done with an air of authority and professionalism. Matthew and Michael go to great lengths to make sure these events are fun for all. Please make the same effort.

A sense of normality when for some it was anything but. It's grooming, it's manipulation. It's just so fucked up. None of the events hosted by the Abercrombie guys would have happened without help and a lot of it. So who are these people and how did they get involved? I was never the first to bring it up and I only did it if I thought they were mature enough. I wouldn't want to throw somebody to the wolves just to get money out of it. I'd want to make sure they were ready to handle it. From the BBC, this is World of Secrets. From the BBC, this is World of Secrets.

Season one, The Abercrombie Guys, with me, Rhianna Croxford. A BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Panorama investigation. Episode six, Inside the operation. Once again, I'm waiting to meet a man. This time, I'm back in L.A., sitting outside a cafe just off Melrose in West Hollywood. The man in question sounds like he's one at the bottom of the pyramid, the ground floor of this operation. Someone I've been told was a recruiter who referred men to attend events with Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith. He's late. I get the sinking feeling I'm going to get ghosted when a man in black sunglasses and a navy muscle t-shirt

walks up and grabs a seat across from me and we soon get talking. He's guarded, curious, says he's willing to help but doesn't want to be identified so we're using an actor to voice up what he tells me. It was just kind of like a word of mouth type of situation. I was pretty heavily involved with the boys that were willing to do on-camera porn work. So as long as they had a very Abercrombie look and they might be interested,

it was like pass the name and number along. He says he works in the porn industry and got wrapped up with the Abercrombie guys about 12 years ago after being referred by a fellow porn star to a man called Jim, who asks him to send a photo. I guess Jim was like a casting agent. He would make sure that they were who they said they were, see if they looked like their picture. I was kind of skinny back then, a little older than they liked. They tended to like muscular guys.

And so he says he never got invited to any events. But he does say Jim makes him another offer, a side gig, finding other men who might fit the bill. How much would you get paid for recommending people? From Jim, the handler guy? It was like $1,000 a person. If they were approved by him, it was $1,000. $1,000 for every referral? That's a ton of money. This reminds me of what Barrett told me

about his friend who recruited him. He got paid too, he said. It makes me wonder just how many men were involved on this side of the operation. The recruiter tells me he only referred men onto Jim who worked in porn, but who he thought might be open to escorting. He says this isn't uncommon in the industry and it can be a messy, sleazy business. But he says the way this was run was different. It's almost like going through an HR department. You got the interview. Now you're going to go through the paperwork.

Now we're going to let you know the rules. And what was your understanding of what it was and what it was like? From the guys I know who did it, I want to say it was at least being comfortable getting down to like the underwear that they gave you. They'd be hanging out, talking, having wine or whatever. There were others that did have full relations, but to me it seems like something that was very consensual. I didn't have the sense that sex was even a prerequisite, a kind of just go along and only do what you're comfortable with. At least that's what I was told and that's what I kind of assumed with everybody coming back.

The recruiter says he didn't always hear back from the men he referred, so he doesn't know about everyone's experience. He also says he never got to meet Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith himself, so can't tell me what went on at their events. But there's another man who's been on my radar for a while, who almost certainly can. His name is listed on several of the itineraries I've seen for events held overseas. And through speaking with other former staffers at the

Jeffries family office, I learn he used to be one of Mike Jeffries' closest assistants, a trusted houseman. I found an address for him in Palm Springs, a two-hour drive from where I am in LA. And producer Ruth gets word that this former houseman might be home. Just so great that you managed to confirm he's there. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. And the guy, the neighbour was actually there to answer the door. Amazing. Yeah. This is Maggie Miles,

a local journalist who's been helping us work out if he's in town. Let's hope he's actually in though. OK, let's do this. All right. Palm Springs is sizzling hot. Over 100 degrees, almost 40 Celsius. There are palm trees in every direction, and in the distance I can make out the purple

brown mountain tops that surround the city. We park outside the former houseman's apartment complex, climb a flight of stairs, knock, but nobody's home. I feel like we leave a letter under his door. He could have just popped out. I feel like we've come all this way and we can keep trying. Maybe he's napping. After what feels like forever waiting outside his door,

I start to lose faith. My preference is just sit here and wait. Because imagine we'd left and then he, like, came back, you know? And at that moment, a short, dapper-dressed man with a trim beard turns the corner. I recognise him instantly from his posts on social media. We'll be back after this. What do Tiger Woods, Mark Zuckerberg and Taylor Swift all have in common? Well, their lives and fortunes are all being discussed on Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring the minds, motives and the money of some of the world's wealthiest individuals.

I'm Zing Zing, and each week my co-presenter Simon Jack and I take a closer look at the world's mega rich. And we try to decide whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. From celebs and CEOs to spot stars and tech titans find out how billionaires made their money and how they use it good bad billionaire from the bbc world service all episodes of season one and two are available now wherever you get your bbc podcasts and click follow or subscribe so you never miss a new episode. We've been invited into the apartment of the former houseman. It's neat and full of personality, lots of artwork on the walls and a curious Lego creation on the coffee table.

Our arrival wasn't entirely unexpected. I'd sent him an email a week prior to our trip to Palm Springs and he tells me he'd been sitting on it, wondering if now's the time to tell all. He was one of the housemen who the regular household staff called the afternoon shift, the team who'd arrive when Mike Jeffries was getting ready for his so-called playtime. Even though our conversation is on the record, we've decided not to name him, as he was just one part of a bigger team, and still only an employee. We're calling him Nathan, and this is an actor speaking his words. I loved working for them. I did. I loved it. I worked for them for five or six years. It love working for them. I did. I loved it. I worked for them for five or six years. It

was the best job. He starts with some positive stuff about his time working for Mike Jeffries, but I want to know how it all started. Like many of the men I've met, Nathan had aspirations of being an Abercrombie & Fitch model, and to get closer to that dream, he thought working in one of the brand's stores might be a good place to start. I think they wanted to put me in the stock room, and at first I didn't mind, but then I was like, no, I want to work on the floor, you know what I mean? But then I realised, you don't do anything on the floor, you just kind of walk around and be pretty, that's all you do. So perhaps the store job wasn't for him. And when a different opportunity came up in 2005,

not with Abercrombie & Fitch, but with the Jeffreys family office, the private company that manages Mike Jeffreys' personal affairs, he took it. This is a few years before the allegations I'm focusing on, but I'm curious to know how he got the job. I knew the person that was getting the boys for Mike Jeffries. And that person who was getting the boys for Mike Jeffries, that's Jim, the middleman,

who auditioned the men I've met. The job he says Jim's daughtered for him was pretty central to the operation and making things run smoothly. So I was the travel houseman. I would pack and unpack for them, feed, serve them lunch, serve them dinner, serve them wine. Yeah, get them ready for their appointments in the morning, get them ready for bed at night, make sure everything is where it's supposed to be. And did you go to some pretty amazing places? Oh, London was one of them, south of France. Yeah, it was great. He's reeling off locations that Alex and David described. He was there too. Nathan says most of his work involved going on foreign trips

with the Abercrombie guys. As we've heard, they had a pretty strict set of demands when they were travelling. Remember the airplane manual from episode four? The one giving instructions on what underwear cabin crew should wear and what brand of sleep spray Mike Jeffries liked on his pillow at night? Well, Nathan says he helped write it. Not all of it. I added a lot of things to it.

They never gave me credit for that. But it wasn't really his job to write the manuals. He had other things to attend to. Nathan says he was literally in the room It wasn't really his job to write the manuals. He had other things to attend to. Nathan says he was literally in the room during some of the events I've been investigating. So it wasn't just being in the room. I was giving them lube and poppers. That's what this was.

How do you feel about that? I'm not going to say that it never crossed my mind. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, this is real? Like, are you literally? But do you know how much money I was getting paid, though? Nathan tells me he was paid a lot of money while working for the Jeffries family office. As some he implies, made the job worth doing. And when it came to the men attending these events, when we first speak, Nathan tells me they walked into the situation fully aware of

what to expect. Most of them came in with fucking open arms ready to do it get that pay get that bank and then go home. Why did you think they were escorts? Why would I not think that? Well I knew what they were coming for. Do you think they knew what they were coming for? Yeah. Were many straight? I would say 50% were probably straight, or you could say bisexual because one of them was married or everything. And what were they like? Nice guys, just regular normal guys, you know, most of them had other things that they wanted to do and this was the way to get fast money and some of them were just going to be this for their whole lives. The men I've spoken to describe events over a six-year period from 2009.

Nathan said he worked there from 2005 to 2011. So while he crossed over for two years, most of his experience was before the time I'm focusing on. As we're talking, Nathan's demeanour is cool and calm, almost a bit detached. But when I press him more on how the men invited to the events were treated, he starts to giggle. Maybe it's nerves, I can't tell. Were people kind of required to take, like, STI tests and things like that, or...? No, because I believe that we thought

that they were, you know, healthy enough, yeah. Condoms? You're joking, right? Is it actually, like, I don't know, is that a yes or a no? Maybe I don't remember. I don't know what to make of this. We have evidence that condoms were available,

and some of the men have told me they were used. But how often, I don't know. But when it came to personal security, Nathan says the Abercrombie guys were definitely on it. Well, they was afraid of being taped, being watched or whatever. And they wanted me to go through all the security stuff, and I was like, I'm not a security guy, but if this is what you want me to do, ain't nobody here, ain't nobody care about your life, really. You know what I mean? This is all parano paranoia but i don't think it was wrong my thing was them

was they were trying to act so perfect in the world and then they had all this shit behind closed doors i can't quite figure nathan out or what he really made of mike jeffries and matthew smith before i met him i'd been told told Nathan had a love-hate relationship with his old bosses. I liked him a lot. I liked Matthew. Matthew was the greatest. He was the nicest person. We started out nice the first three years. Then me and Michael started to butt heads a lot, but yeah. Michael was a hothead. Michael even said to me the first night I met him,

I'm a mean motherfucker. And I said, well, so am I. There's something else I want to ask Nathan about. The money trail. The men I've met say they were handed thousands of dollars by the housemen each time they attended an event. Our evidence suggests it was Matthew Smith who organised the payments through Mike Jeffries' private company.

And how were the guys paid? Cash. And was that coming from Matthew then? It was in an envelope he'd just handed to them. Like, he would carry the money? Matthew had the money. And how much would the guys get paid, like, individually? Yeah, about anywhere between 500, 500 1500 these boys wasn't cheap

and that was happening throughout the whole time you were there 2005 to 2011 anytime i went to go travel i knew they were going to have boys at least one or two nights that i was traveling with them nathan says on top of the payments there's the flight costs the hotel bookings the meal allowances too I might be naive but isn't that a lot of effort oh it's oh no if you if you've got a team behind you doing all of the work there is no effort from you I mean how standard is that though for like someone to have a team like that to do things for them in that way? So we also had a guy who would preview the guys first, too, to make sure they were going to like them. Who is that?

You know who I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure he's talking about Jim. Well, he knew their type, so he would see them, find out if they were tops or bottoms. And so he would find these boys, send the pictures to Matthew. Matthew would have a look at the pictures. Matthew would say, hey, try this one out or that one out. And then he would set up a meeting with them and then they would come over, hang out, have sex

and then he would report back to Matthew what he thought about this person sexually or whatever. Whose idea was that for him to do that? I might have to think it was Matthew. It could have been his, but I think it was Matthew because I think Matthew got sick of trying to get people that didn't work out. I wonder what he meant by didn't work out. I still have a lot of questions for Nathan, but it's now the evening and he's got other plans. So as we're leaving his apartment, we exchanged a flurry of dates and

times for when we could speak again. Probably Tuesday, Wednesday. And he seems broadly keen. Depending on how hard it is, probably Tuesday. But it's not until a few days later that he texts and says he's not ready to talk. So we later wrote to Nathan, asking him to respond to detailed questions about his time working for the Abercrombie guys and his role at the events I've been investigating. When we'd met, Nathan had been pretty positive. But after he gets our letter,

he starts to take a different tack in his email responses. He says... This wasn't something I was proud of. But I was great to those guys. I took care of them. I didn't treat them any different. Now we might have had some personal, uncomfortable conversations from time to time.

In his apartment, Nathan had said this was the best job. But in his emails, he suggests that his time working for Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith has taken its toll on him and others. Most of those guys didn't think at the time that what they were doing was going to affect them for the rest of their lives. I've done my best to deal with it and not think about it, because if I didn't, it would have broke me.

It would have broke me down. Some days are really bad, but the good days outweigh the bad now. Before it was vice versa. I ask him if he wants to talk some more, but he says no. So I'm left with a feeling that Nathan's time with the Abercrombie guys has harmed him too. I still have so many questions, and there's one man I'm determined to try to speak to. Jim, the middleman who auditioned young men before events with Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith. When I first tried looking for Jim, all I had was his first name and the description that he was

missing his nose. Barrett had an old phone number for him but that was no longer working. From speaking to sources and going through the itineraries I discover that Jim has had lots of different numbers over the years but it was a reverse search on one of those old numbers that eventually led me to figure out his full name, James Thor Jacobson. And there he was on Facebook. I showed his picture to David and Barrett. This looks like Jim. He's got a rattlesnake patch on his, where his nose would be.

His hair is longer in this picture than I remember, but this is for sure Jim. According to his profile, Jim Jacobson lives in Wisconsin. It seems he moved there from New York a few years ago. But is he still there? Hey, Ryan. Hi. Hey.

How are you doing? Not too bad. How are you? Producer Ruth contacts Ryan, a local journalist, and asks him to figure out if Jim's in the neighbourhood. Is this like a stakeout kind of thing? Kind of. I think just a case of driving past and seeing, are his dogs in the yard, is his car there, that sort of thing. Sure. I have a map behind me. I'm just going to look at it quick.

There's some mountain bike trails there I like to ride. So I think I could go for a ride this evening and take a look. Oh, that would be amazing. Ryan knows the area really well. We leave him for a couple of days to see what he can find. So I rode by a couple times by his place, and the first time I noticed there were sprinklers on and lights were on in the house. Okay. And I biked around for a while, but I didn't see him.

But as I was leaving, I drove by his place again, and that time the garage door was open. Mm-hmm. And I noticed a large black SUV inside. That's enough for us. Lights on, sprinklers on and the SUV matches the description of the car we think Jim drives. Time to head to Wisconsin. Hey Ryan.

Hello. How are you doing? Good. Nice to meet you. This is Rihanna. OK, just hop in and we go? Yeah. This is everybody else. This is Adam. And Joe. So Joe is helping us from a security perspective and Adam is the cameraman. We brought Joe along as you never know how these things are going to go. It can be risky pulling up unannounced and asking difficult questions.

But Jim's now 70 years old and looks like he's living the quiet life. That blows my mind that you found him here. Yeah. This is just, I don't know, every town USA kind of community. That's just crazy. I don't know if Jim still works for the Abercrombie guys or when he last spoke to them. We wind down a narrow country road.

It's a beautiful part of the world. Pine forests and deep blue lakes. We pull into Jim's driveway. Producer Ruth and I psych ourselves up to knock on his door. So what is our... Hi, our names are Rhianna and Ruth. We've come from London. We're journalists with the BBC and smiley and calm. Door's open. Screen door's there with the doors open. Okay. Thanks, guys. We got this, Bruce.

You got it. You got this. Okay, let's go. That's next time on the Abercrombie Guys. Thanks for listening to the World of Secrets podcast, an investigation from BBC Radio 5 Live and Panorama. If you've enjoyed this episode, then please tell a friend, spread the word, and even better, write a review. And let us know what you think of the series using the hashtag World of Secrets.

You can write to me and the team at Rianna, that's R-I-A-N-N-A, at bbc.com. The Abercrombie Guys is presented and investigated by me, Rianna Croxford. The podcast producers are Ruth Evans, Ailis Hart and Emma Close. With thanks to Maggie Miles, Ryan Urban, Adam Walker and Joe Voboril. The BBC News Investigation Editor is Ed Campbell and the podcast

editor is Richard Fenton-Smith. Sound design and mix by Neil Churchill and Andy Fell. Voice overs by Nathaniel Landsback and Steve Dorsey. Production support by Debbie Richford, Sophie Hill, Jackie Johnson and Kirsten Oliver And technical support by Jonathan Glover and Jack Willis The World of Secrets theme music is by Jeremy Wormsley

This podcast is made in collaboration with BBC Panorama The editor is Karen Whiteman, executive producer is Tom Stone and the producer is Kate Brown. The Abercrombie Guys is a BBC News long-form audio production for BBC Sounds. The head of long-form audio is Emma Rippon and the deputy head of BBC Current Affairs is Jim Gray. The commissioning editor at BBC Sounds is Dylan Haskins and commissioning executive is Louise Catton-Horne. The assistant commissioner is Natasha Johansson. With thanks to Hannah Livingston, Joe Kent, Adam Walker and Paul Myers. And thank you to everyone who spoke to us for this investigation. We can't tell stories

like this without you. Thank you for listening. In 2011, the Fukushima nuclear power plant on the east coast of Japan was struck by a tsunami. It triggered the world's worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl. Fukushima, an original audio drama series from the BBC World Service, tells the story of how the disaster unfolded and of those living with its aftermath. I'll never be able to separate myself from it. Catch up with the whole series now by searching for Fukushima wherever you get your BBC podcasts. What do Tiger Woods, Mark Zuckerberg and Taylor Swift all have in common? Well, their lives and fortunes are all being discussed on Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring the minds, motives, and the money of some of the

world's wealthiest individuals. I'm Zing Zing, and each week, my co-presenter Simon Jack and I take a closer look at the world's mega rich, and we try to decide whether they're good, bad, or just another billionaire. From celebs and CEOs to sports stars and tech titans, find out how billionaires made their money and how they use it. Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

All episodes of season one and two are available now wherever you get your BBC podcasts and click follow or subscribe so you never miss a new episode.