World Of Secrets - The Darkest Web: 6. My brother, the abuser

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

The time has come to arrest Alisa’s brother, Staton Grubert. Thirty armed agents commando crawl up a dirt track to his trailer in Texas. Staton has no idea that his time is up. Will Alisa finally get closure? And in a state in the South West, Greg is reunited with Lucy, the girl who had been abused for six years. This podcast includes some upsetting scenes and discussions of child sexual abuse.For further information on the issues raised in the programme, contact support organisations in your own country. For a list of organisations in the UK that can provide support go to bbc.co.uk/actionline.Reporter and Presenter: Sam Piranty Writer and Producer: Annabel Deas Script advice: Matt Willis Sound design: Neil Churchill Composer: Rob Lewis Executive Producer: Rebecca Henschke Commissioning Senior Producer: Sarah Green Commissioning Editor: Jon ManelThe Darkest Web is a BBC Eye production for the BBC World Service.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. You're not at the office. You're solving murders in the Scottish Highlands. You're not in your car. You're in a candlelit carriage on the way to the ball. This winter, see it differently when you streamed the best of British TV with Britbox. Catch a new original series like Riot Women. New seasons of fan favourites like Shetland. A body's been found. And on parallel collections of Jane Austen, Heather Christie and more. It's time to see it differently with Britbox.

Watch with a free trial now at Britbox.com. Chicago, 2011. A cop is murdered. Police and prosecutors swear they have the trigger man. He swears he didn't do it. How far will each side go to prove their right? Like it's just one bombshell after another. You know, where you're like, what, what?

The story of a PlayStation, a brain-eating amoeba, and the relentless, pursuit of justice. Off duty, out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're about to listen to the final episode of The Darkest Web. Keep listening at the end to find out more about the next world of secrets investigations. Hey, it's Sam. Just a warning before we start, this episode contains references to child and infant sexual abuse. In Sweden, an undercover police officer is staring at her screen. She's examining the evidence which will be used to convict a Swedish man

who has been sexually abusing his three-year-old niece. The man has recorded videos of his abuse, which he's shared on the dark web. The investigator is carefully analysing the evidence when she spots something, a name that she recognises, and that she thinks belongs to a paedophile in America. So she picks up the phone and calls her US counterpart, Special Agent Greg Squire at the Department for Homeland Security. They saw a name, and thankfully for the Swedish police officer,

she recognized that name, and so immediately reached out and said, hey, I think we got something here. She spotted an important figure in the vast online work, of child sexual exploitation. It's Staten Grubert, Elisa's older brother who she says abused her when they were both children living in rural Texas. It seems he's taken his abuse online.

This is World of Secrets, Season 11. The Darkest Web, a BBC World Service investigation. I'm Samparanze. Episode 6. my brother the abuser When they reached out to me and had said hey listen we got this bit of information here

we think it's this bad guy those types of information they really hit the fast forward button because security and time becomes extremely important and things need to move pretty expeditiously when someone in the dark well

child sexual abuse community is arrested, word travels fast. The Swedish guy having been arrested, we of course suspected that Grubert would have known that or at least suspected it. He knew that they had shared information that could lead to his identity and what Gruberd had been doing with the Swede was they were just fawning over the abuse of this three-year-old. To the outside world, Staten Grubert appears normal. He has a pretty standard job, and no criminal record. I think he was working at like some sort of local hotel or resort.

You know, not doing a job of any special substance or skill set or anything like that. He wasn't in charge of IT or anything like that. It was just kind of a very average employment. But in private, he lives a completely... different life. Greg discovers that Staten Grubert is one of the most senior administrators on a dark website dedicated to sharing images of child sexual abuse. Gruber was an important person.

He was an important player in the community, so he would never expose himself broadly. He would never make a public announcement about something so intimate like he's A, married, or be as a pregnant wife. Normally, users on the site closely guard their identity, living in fear of being caught by undercover police. But Grubert had come to trust the Swede. He opened up, sharing deeply personal information. His wife was pregnant.

He had planned on abusing that baby. For Greg and Pete, things need to move very quickly. As soon as we had the suspicion that he, He was in the U.S. You know, we began our investigation, our process. The affidavit that would be necessary to send out any checks that we needed done to confirm his identity, begin surveillance, pretty much get all the legal side of the house squared away, getting our prosecutor up to speed on what the objective was, what the level of dangerousness was. There's a ton of coordination that has to take place.

And then they set off, at speed, bound for Texas. It was a little chaotic. The location that he lived in was very difficult to surveil. The stakes are even higher than usual. You know, this is Texas, so we also had a real awareness of the potential for there to be weapons in the house. It's not like other states here in the U.S. where you go, oh, does he have a license? Well, that's not really relevant to Texas because everybody has a gun. About 50 miles north of Austin lies a small town of Bertram,

with a population of around 2,000 people. The town is cut in two by a railway track. The building they are targeting, stating Grubet's trailer, lies about a quarter of a mile beyond the end of a long rural road. An isolated spot in an isolated town in the middle of Texark. In order to arrest Grubut, the team first needs to carry out surveillance. We had to send a few cars up there and kind of play dumb and look lost or whatever it may be. So it wasn't a normal situation where you could sit and watch someone go in and out of their house.

But we got a little lay of the land as far as where the entry points were of the trailer. And as far as what's going on inside, that was sort of to be discovered upon entry. because we had no way to get in there and take a look around, of course. Greg and Pete have assembled a large team for this operation. We knew we wanted to have our special response team execute the actual entry of the warrant for safety's sake. You know, these are all professionals, a lot of former military, a lot of former SWAT people.

It was some serious backup, but a team this size will stick out like a single. saw thumb. You're talking about a road that maybe saw a dozen cars through the course of the day, let alone our normal line of vehicles with officers in it. It would have given Grubert not just a heads up or a warning, I guess, but it would have almost guaranteed the destruction of evidence, as well as create a potential for, you know, Grubert arming himself and looking to have a standoff with police as opposed to a surprise entry, pretty much. So at the end of the day, the determination was that it would be a nighttime entry,

and that was a lot to do with officer safety, because to get up to his trailer in the middle of the day, you know, would have been just about the same as sending a circus up a street. The cover of darkness the team sets off. Greg and Pete, alongside some colleagues from Homeland Security, plus the heavily armed tactical team. I think we had probably 30 of us total, and I think if you visualize two trailers sort of in the middle of a field, essentially, with one driveway going up to it, we had three teams entering from three different directions. So some were coming in from the farmland to the east of his property and working their way through that farm.

one from the west and the team I was on was coming up from the south. Inside his trailer, Grubert has no idea that more than two dozen officers are commando crawling towards him from three directions. They hope that he won't even look up from his computer screen because they have a plan to try and keep him online. We had the luxury of my close friend having volunteered to stay on the as well, to engage him in conversation if possible, and sort of distract him, for lack of a better term, so that we were working our way up this driveway that we could go as undetected as possible.

The close friend is an Australian police officer talking online to Grubert, pretending to be a fellow paedophile. The plan is to catch him while he's live on the site. And as he approaches the trailer on his belly, Greg's got his Australian colleague in his earpiece, telling him exactly what Grubert is doing. So we began our sort of approach to the house, which was extremely slow. These guys are professionals. They do it all the time.

So we worked our way up full tactical gear. Some level of camouflage, of course, to sort of try to blend in. But it was a slow migration from probably a half mile away. Three teams converge on the house sort of simultaneously. Suddenly, a pair of headlights. flash into view and a truck drives up the track towards Gruber's trailer. This is the worst thing. So everyone pretty much put their asses in the grass, cheek to the ground, because a truck

came up and went up the driveway. And we all laid down in the grass and got as tight to the ground as we could. And this truck drove by probably 30 agents and didn't see any of us. A man gets out of the truck and Grubert comes out to greet him. Eventually, they go inside together. Greg and the others haven't time to breathe a sigh of relief. They restart their approach. We immediately start moving again because now we're thinking our time is going to be pretty limited with him being online.

We get probably within 20 yards of the house and then the team members whose job it is to set up the entry devices moves into place and they get their gear in place for what's going to happen with the entry. I told my friend on the phone, I said, I don't know if he stole online, but where this is a go. It's time to strike. Police! Chicago, 2011, a cop is murdered. Police and prosecutors swear they have the trigger man. He swears he didn't do it. How far will each side go to prove their right? Like it's just one bombshell after another, you know, where you're like, I, what, what? The story of a PlayStation, a brain-eating amoeba, and the relentless pursuit of justice. Off duty, out now. Listen wherever you

get your podcasts. I have probably 47 questions in here that I'd like to talk about, and that is going to be kind of up to you. I mean, once. we get into the meat and potatoes of the water here. So we are, again, a internet crimes specialist group with a focus on crimes against children. And that is our purpose for being here. I've never touched a child, period. The voice you're hearing is Staten Grubert.

He's seated at the kitchen table in his trailer in shock. Just minutes before, 30, Armed operatives burst into his home and arrested him on suspicion of advertising child sexual abuse material. When they entered his home, officers had found Grubber surrounded by screens. Six monitors, three or four laptops, and on his desk two loaded handguns. They were right to have been cautious. When the first operative made entry, Grubat slammed his laptop shut and reached for his gun, ready to shoot. But a second operative wrestled him to the ground.

Grubut had been ready. He knew what he was doing was wrong. And now he's sitting here, unmasked and alone. What we do want to learn more about is your activity. Okay. and I know a lot of it, and you're a smart dude, so I don't have to labor that at all with you, okay? I know about the websites, I know...

But you're still being vague. I don't necessarily understand what you're... Greg isn't going to tell Grubert exactly what he knows. Instead, he wants to see if Gruber will volunteer that information himself. He begins gently, asking if Gruber can explain what he will. was doing on one specific dark website. Remember, these sites are only accessible using the Tor browser, which keeps its users anonymous. Well, I'm sure you've looked into my past as far as Thor goes. I'm a big proponent of Tor. I've always supported Tor and I've always loved Tor.

And I've used it from the age of 12. So I know what you're talking about, but I'm still kind of drawing a blank as to what you're asking. I'm asking what your activity is on tour. And I actually told you already what I know your activity is. So now I'm just looking for you to be candid about that activity. I mean, if it's internet traffic, I try to use it. Right. I mean, I get the idea of going to sites and not wanting yourself trace and all that.

But talk to me about dark web sites. I don't have anything to hide there. So, you know, when you mention a site that I know does have CD stuff or have things to hide, I'm being honest with you. I've seen that. I know that name. I've seen that site before. Yep. All right.

But just like when you're saying to me, I'm saying to you, there's nothing. I've got nothing. There's encrypted drives that I have encrypted operating systems and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But it's just because it's mine and it's mine down. You can hear Grubert's confidence. Greg asks again about that one specific dark website. He knows Grubert is an admin.

But Grubert has no idea the agent sitting opposite him knows so much. Greg switches up a gear. Okay, so now we're, now we've stopped telling the truth. And that's your prerogative. but I don't want you come into me and say, well, now, you know, we're both sitting here telling the truth because, like I said, I know, and that's why I went straight to you with, I want to learn about, you know, how you got to where you are. Really what I want to do. Yeah. Just being honest, really what I want to do is I don't want to be sitting at this table at all.

Yeah. I just want to be quite. I have almost nothing to say. Everything that we can talk about, we can talk about the, you know, the little stuff, the, you know, shooting the breeze, what we believe about with computing. But beyond that, y'all aren't my friends. True. Yeah. Y'all are actually adversarially here.

You all broken in my doors. You know, I'm, I mean, here I am. She's sitting at this table sharing water with you guys. Nothing against you. Nothing. Right. But you're still Miami. I'm certain that you wouldn't tell anyone, any neighbor.

any neighbor, any friend about your activity on the dark web. I get that 100%. I know what the activity is, and I know it's difficult to stare at me and to think that I know what's happened, okay? I guess what I'm asking you to do is to sort of accept where we are. So let me present this to you then. You see darkness tonight, right? There's not a lot of good that you could.

seeing the horizon. No, I'm probably going to miss the birth of my child. I'm probably going to not see them for many years of their life. I'm going to miss out on a lot of, you know, my wife's issues. It's all gone. My, my little, you know, my family, my family means a lot to me, guys. You got to understand that. They have, I'm going to miss out on chances, all those opportunities. If this goes the way that y'all wanted to go. You can hear Grubit's earlier confidence, draining away. There's a danger he'll close up and not talk. So Greg tries a different tack.

My thought, my belief, and this is speculation a little bit, is that you could probably, if you wanted to, maybe carefully answering questions, make a difference in a child's life. You could say to me, I would look into that if I was you

because that's a problem over there. Or I would look into this person because that's a problem over there. And that is on your conscious, whether you want to do that or not. What I'm saying to you is today is the big difference on that stuff. Because at some point,

we're not going to be able to talk. Pretty much everyone that I'm close to is going to be like stating you're never going to see my kid again. I'm fascinated with lots of what-ifs, man. What if I never see my wife again? That's a possibility. What if you stop a child from being abused tonight?

What if I never see my... I have a very short life here on her. So does the kid. So does the kid that's being abused. But how... How the only way that I know, the only way that I know to make this as...

As best as possible for you, and for me, should be to just stay quiet. State and Grubert might want to stay quiet, but the news of his arrest travels quickly. I can't remember who called me, but I know I got a call

I think it was either my mom or my dad. I remember it was early in the morning. My mom was talking to his wife's family and getting information from them and I was trying to convey everything to my dad. It was just an absolute whirlwind. So that first call, I just remember that

They said he was arrested, it was really bad, there were lots of different agencies there, they busted down his door and he had to have done something horrible. I remember feeling immediately like I knew it had something to do with kids. I don't know, I just, I mean, probably my past experience was, you know, giving me that feeling. but I just knew that it had to be something horrible. I felt like it was that. I remember that it was a bunch of phone calls at least like four or five with my mom

until she finally said, okay, fine. They're saying that it's crimes against children. That's what the paperwork says. But he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't do that. And I said, Mom, it's something. Crimes against children. Crimes against children. Everybody was trying to figure it out,

but I just, I had that like gut-drop feeling that I knew what it had to do with. And, you know, still, she'd say, no, no, no, I can't be that. It's not that. I don't think it's that. And the whole time she'd been told, you know, by his wife's family that that's what they were saying it was for.

That's what was on the paperwork that they had. When she finally said that she knew that whole time, I was just so mad. I think I might have been more mad. at her than I had in that very moment. We felt like we weren't getting any information from her. She had asked his wife's family for the information that they had and they didn't. She said that they didn't want to give it to her.

I really don't know how true that is. I felt like we were in limbo. My sister and I had plans for that day. We were supposed to go shopping. After I, like, had a moment and fell apart. I was like, you know what? for keeping our plan. We're going to just go and our day is going to be normal

and we'll know more when we know more. And so we drove across town and we got to the parking lot and we just sat there. We were like, man, we can't go inside. I was like, I can't do this. I'm just going to cry inside the store. And I really was like determined to figure out what was going on. get more information.

Elisa needs to try something. I knew that his wife's family lived somewhere close by. I found their address, and I decided I'd go knock on their door. And, you know, I figured that if anything, they'd let me just read what they had and, you know, I could maybe find out more information

and figure out what was going on. And so I did that. I went, we parked and walked up and knocked on the door. I'd only met them a couple of times. I wasn't even sure if they would know who I was. So I remember saying, like, it's me. I'm Satan's sister.

And he was like, I know you are coming. I felt like such a bother, you know. I was just, and I like kind of intruding. I don't like surprise visitors myself. So I felt really weird to do that to someone else. But I was kind of desperate. So we sat there and we talked to them for a while about what had happened and how they were feeling.

Eventually, Grubert's wife's parents hand over the charges. Obviously, at that time, I didn't really know a lot about any of this, this whole world that's out there. I just knew that, you know, those charges sounded pretty serious. Elisa sees something else at the house. A picture of a card for the Department of Homeland Security Investors. that made the arrest and so I decided I'd try, try calling and see what he could tell me. It took her time to work up the courage, but eventually Elisa sends Greg an email,

explaining what Staten had done to her as a child. Greg asks if they can get on a call right away. And I said yes, um, of course. I, I guess I didn't really really have any expectations. You know, I just, I felt like I wanted somebody else to know that this person had somewhat of a history, whether or not they were ever caught before. I know that my brother can be manipulative, and I kind of laugh about this because I know that Greg sees straight through it, but I think I was worried that he might not, that he might, you know, fall for it. Because I think a lot of people around me for a long time had. So I know that that was probably a normal thought, but it does feel a little silly.

That's Greg's job and he's really good at it. But I told him that and he was like, nope, I see what you see, which was also very validating to me. Just not feeling like I'd ever had that response before. Greg gives Elisa the confidence that she needs. He listens to her and believes her. So Elisa begins to write an email to her whole family, outlining the charges against her brother. I attached most of the documents that I had that spell out exactly what he did,

how he was caught, all of that. So I knew that other people didn't have that information either. It's worse than anybody could imagine. The average person doesn't dream this stuff up. Like, it's not something that it would pop into your head. It's so much worse. And so I just wanted people to understand. So I attached the documents.

I asked people to read it. I shared why I felt like it was important, you know, that I just wanted everybody to know what he was doing, that I think I did include that, you know, he'd shared a family member's child's photos, photos and I felt like we all needed this information as a family. This was somebody that was at our family functions in our lives. It made sense to me to send it out and to have it publicly known within our family, you know. I think there were like 20 to 25 emails on the list

and I think I got one response from a family member that was previously married to someone in my family, so someone that's quite removed. So from my immediate family, no one said anything. Instead, she finds out her mum has invented an alternative narrative, telling people her son is a victim. We reached out to Elisa's mother and haven't received a response. Elisa says, after her mother got our message, she sent a note to her children saying she wants them all to be happy. Good morning, Your Honor. The Golden Amendment to the United States.

Your Honor, good morning. Benthol called the United States. In July 2023, Staten Grubert attends a federal court in Boston charged with advertising child sexual abuse material on the dark web. The judge asked him if he knew

why he was there and he understood the charges. And I remember I watched his hands out of the table and he like, He did like a shrug when he answered, like, yes, you know. Advertisement. You know, he kind of like skirted over it and like shrugged his hands. I waited a long time for that day.

Elisa has also waited a long time to tell her brother exactly what she thinks of him. She wrote a statement for the trial. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my abuser was my brother Staten. What I know now after navigating life after his arrest is that I wasn't the only one. Throughout his childhood before and after he abused me, he was known to have behaved inappropriately with other children as well. I can tell you from a personal experience that he has been perfecting his art of manipulation his entire life. I feel it is so important that you understand that while Staten doesn't have a previous criminal record on paper. He does have a lifelong track record of inappropriate behavior towards children.

Staten's response is to call his sister a liar. He doesn't deserve to live in a world with innocent children and forever isn't long enough for his sentence. Mr. Gruber, as to count one of the single count indictment charging you with advertising child pornography in violation of Title 18 of the United States Code Section 2251 D and E, you have previously pled not guilty. Do you now wish to change your plea? Yes, I do. What's the known is to count one, guilty or not guilty? Guilty.

Thank you. You need to see them. In November, 23, Staten Grubert was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Today, Elisa has very little contact with her mother. Instead, she chooses to focus on her own family. She wants to make sure her own children don't experience anything like she did. I feel like it's having someone, something you trust. In a small cafe in a city in America's southwest, a waitress is taking a break

and sitting down to talk to someone who's come to meet her. She's in her early 20s, friendly and polite. To any outsider, this looks like an uneventful scene. That could be the case for children down the line. it would help tremendously. The waitress is Lucy. The girl's special agents, Pete Manning and Greg Squire rescued in their first major case,

who they spent months searching for and finally found her after a brick salesman helped to identify the location of the room she was being abused in for six years. Greg played a key role in the arrest of her abuser. But he's never. ever met Lucy. Until now. I couldn't tell someone because I didn't know what was happening.

Right. Like I got asked when they were doing the investigation why I didn't tell anyone. Like not in those words, but might as well have been. But it's... You're so young. What are you not... Like these are questions that you're going to ask an adult and they're not going to understand them. You can't ask a child that.

It's just simply not fair. A month ago, Greg found out that after Lucy was rescued, the local police chief kept in touch with her, checking in to see how she was doing. And now, 11 years later, here they are. I struggled a lot with being around people, period, any people, for a long time. That, unfortunately, is a normal symptom of this. I personally am not an educator. but I would love to be able to tell these children that it's not children and teenagers. It's not even just like it's everyone.

This isn't okay. This is actively harmful. Yeah, it's happening. Yeah, it's happening every single day, unfortunately. You will get through it. It will be like this is incredibly cliche. It is very difficult because this. this kind of trauma can not only trigger genetic disorders,

but it can cause disorders itself, which makes it much harder to get through life. There are resources, and hopefully they will be more accessible in the future. We need them to know, like, it's funny, you say you're not an educator, but it's like, this is education. Yeah. Like, this is going to be, this can change somebody.

And again, it does sound cliche, but like if it does then every every bit of it's worth it you know every bit of time anyone puts into it i mean i'd love to see a place where therapists academia parents everybody just just a little bit more time yeah just a little more time and a little time to sit and be uncomfortable with it it's unfortunate and these are the people that you should be trusting but not everyone's trustworthy you You just can't bring strange people around kids sometimes. There's no circumstance, and five minutes of an uncomfortable conversation could save years of... Years and years of, like, lifelong trauma.

Lucy's abuser was sentenced to over 70 years in prison. The impact of his abuse reached into every part of her life. If I had known what to expect, whether it be just, hey, hear, memory loss is a year. usual symptom of this and being educated on how this could affect my relationships and intimacy would have made so, so much less shame. And shame is shouldn't have been put on me. No. It wasn't my fault. No, no. You don't deserve to carry that in, carry it at all. Yeah. You should never have to face it, let alone carry it. Yeah. We've had some really frustrating conversations with, you talk to whether it's politicians or legal people

and you're thinking about, is this uncomfortable? Well, how do you think any of the kids have felt? How do you think a developing child feels about it? Yeah. Right now, thousands of paedophiles on the dark web will be producing and then sharing images of child sexual abuse. For over a decade, special agents Pete Manning and Greg Squire have a bit of, working to stop them. Pete has recently retired, but Greg carries on.

The Darkest Web was presented by me, Samperanti. It was written and produced by Annabel Dees. Script advice by Matt Willis. The music was composed by Rob Lewis. The sound design was by Neil Churchill. The executive producer was Rebecca Henske. For BBC World Service, the commissioning executives were Sarah Green and Anne Dixie. The executive editor was Liz Gibbons and the commissioning editor was John Manel. The Darkest Web is a BBC I production. The world is full of secrets. Pasts hidden. Evidence buried. World of secrets returned soon with more extraordinary investigations. stories that span continents and challenge power. Hi, I'm Renarko Selena.

I presented season nine, Death in Dubai. I'm still working on some new developments, so look out for more on that story soon. But for now, I want to be the first to tell you about what the World of Secrets team has got coming up. In April, we'll bring you a story where for decades, the truth has been hiding. in plain sight.

When I was young, I would see military trucks in a very long convoy of camouflaged vehicles driving to the far north, raising a crowd of dust along with them. We looked at them with a lot of admiration. That's why most of the kids grew up wanting to be soldiers. The next season of World of Secrets will take us to Nanyuki in Kenya.

The presence of soldiers has shaped this town, with its bars, restaurants and shopping malls. But it's also shaped some of the families. She told me, and don't go on Facebook. And me being me, I was like, why is Mom telling me not to do this? Like, what is there? Kathy was just 10 years old

when she made a life-changing discovery about her father. I took her phone and started scrolling on Facebook and I saw the surname. I rushed to Mom and I shovel her phone. in her face and I'm like, can you please explain why this guy has the same name as me? World of Secrets, Season 12, is Searching for Soldier Dad. Kathy's mother was left without help until now. We will try as hard as we can.

We will use every tool we can. We will go to court as much as we can. I can promise you we will work very, very hard for this. With the help of a leading geneticist, a group of British and Kenyan lawyers is using DNA science to find missing fathers. The results will upend families in Africa and in Europe. They knew nothing. It was a complete surprise to them. He came up on their ancestry feed. They had no idea. When I saw him, I thought now my life will be better, you know. I was seeing a future for my son, you know. I don't feel like he's feeling the same way I feel for him. Later in 2020s,

story that began decades ago, but the scars have never fully faded. We're taken into a U.S. prison in the early 1970s. Just about every other inmate, black or white, is wearing adhesive tape and medical patches. It looked like the institution had just suffered a major riot. Something very, very unusual has happened here. World of Secrets, Dr. Skin, will tell the story of the inmates of a prison in the U.S. who rented their skin to what they were told were perfume researchers. We believed in the system. We believed in the power dynamics.

These are the people that resistors of the power. They're not going to lie to us about this. But they had no idea what was really going on. There is a very interesting story that no one seems to know about these medical experiments. It's obviously not just perfume tests. They knew our witness, man. We were for the ground for them people, man.

We were considered in the minds of a lot of folk with power, lested human beings. It's so a shame about that. So there you are. Two more seasons of World of Secrets coming soon in 2026. Follow or subscribe to listen. And don't forget to allow push notifications so you know straight away about

every new episode. And if you enjoy what we do, please tell people about World of Secrets, the BBC's Global Investigations podcast. Our next season, World of Secrets, searching for Soldier Dad, will start on Monday the 20th of April. If you can't wait until then,

there are now 11 previous seasons to catch up on. For now, thanks for listening. Chicago. 2011, a cop is murdered. Police and prosecutors swear they have the trigger man. He swears he didn't do it. How far will each side go to prove their right? Like it's just one bombshell after another, you know, where you're like, what, what?

The story of a PlayStation, a brain-eating amoeba, and the relentless pursuit of justice. Off-duty, out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.