Worst Case Scenario with Abi Clarke and Julia Stenton - Day 11 - Michelle Renee

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Michelle Renee and daughter Breea aged 7, had dynamite tapped to their bodies and were held hostage after masked gunmen burst into their San Diego County home in November 2000. The men told Michelle they had been staking out a bank that she managed, warning her they would detonate the explosives if she refused to take hundreds of thousands of dollars from the bank’s vault.Stop what you're doing and listen right now as Julia takes Abi through every detail of Michelle's Worst Case Scenario!Send in tales of survival from your own worst case scenario to [e-mail] and don't forget follow the podcast on Instagram @wcspod to see pictures mentioned by Abi and Julia on this episode and all episodes so far.Theme tune by the brilliant Crizards who can be found on Instagram @crizardsAbi and Julia are in Edinburgh this August for the Fringe Festival. Get tickets to see Abi here and Julia here! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Get attacked by an angry shark Stuck up a mountain in the dark Pushed up a top of a big landmark Hit by lightning in your local park Caught in a downpour of acid rain Struck by meteor or a train A proton beam passes through your brain Attacked by that angry shark again

Hear how they survive Trappled by a herd of buffalo Chaste with an axe by your new friend Joe Burried alive in a pile of snow It's not the worst case scenario. Hi, welcome to worst case scenario, the podcast that discusses Chihuahuas and survival of. Mostly survival stories, though. It is largely survival stories.

Every now and then a Chihuahua comes up, I guess. This is the first time, but I think it'll happen in the future. We do have a history with Chihuahuas. This is why we're talking about chihuahuas. There is a picture behind Julia's head. It's the only picture me and Julia have together. And so we have to use it a lot. I refuse to be in any images alongside Abbey.

Julia was forced into it. As you can see in the pained smile on her face. It was part of the experience. We went to the Chihuahua Cafe in Edinburgh. Last year, Edinburgh Fringe. I think Julie only came because it was free. I got hashtag gifted. Yeah, hashtag gifted.

You told me there was going to be free cake and dogs. I was there to have a little promotion for the Chihuahua Cafe, which I will do till I, it's the best cafe of ever been. to it was great better than any cat cafe i'm sorry i have to say it i love cats but it's better than any cat cafe isn't it i've never been to a cat cafe oh okay well you go i went to the cat cafe in edinburgh of course the cats just don't thank you for not inviting me to that one the clientele of a cat cafe hmm careful it's uh it's a strange group of people all right i hope it doesn't cross over with the clientele of survival true crime contest i hate so too um the chihuahua cafe however though

was a brilliant experience. It was my first experience of any kind of animal cafe Because they brought the chihuahuas round They did and also there was none of this Like don't touch them They literally plonked them on your lap And encourage touching

Like the picture behind us I think we've got 11 dogs on our lap At least It's a whole, it's a pack It's a pack of chihuahuas They're all looking at the camera They are trained, they are professional They know how to give a five star customer experience

They really are honestly all looking at the camera Every single one of them is eyes to the camera. They're posing better than we are. We look exhausted. This must be some way into the festival. This was our one day off. I didn't have a day off. This was my day off.

This is how we spent it. I'm pretty sure you were to go to a competition that night. I did. Yeah, I did. I got three, thanks very much. Yeah. But the one downfall of the Chihuahua Cafe, I did have a survival because obviously as we were there,

Yeah, as a gifted experience, thank you once again, I'll return every year. They really wanted me to have the prettiest food. Oh, they did. They had like a multi-coloured hot chocolate. Everything was unicorn. Hot chocolate should not be pink. And it was true. I was in unicorns.

Yeah. It was a very legally blonde. It was. Hello Kitty kind of vibe. They lent heavily on that. Wasn't one of the dogs from Legally Blonde? Yes, we met Bruiser. I cannot come here.

became more how amazing this cafe is. I have never seen happy. They are like celebrity dogs. I was like I am Elle. Eve won. It was amazing. But they wanted me to have multi-coloured food and they said this like, I don't know, angel unicorn fairy cake was the best best in the biz. And I was like, okay. And then I took one bite and I was like, there's nuts in that. But I didn't want, we were there for free and you're aware of that the whole time and you feel so bad. I was like, I cannot say anything, but I don't want them to think I don't like it. Luckily, it was only Marzi Pan. I'm not like, really, so like I didn't die.

But Julia had to eat both of our cakes. It was, and they were enormous slices of cake. I cannot. I was like, Julia, you have to eat it. I fucking despise Marzy pan as well. So I had to like, because obviously we didn't want to look rude. I was also so annoying because I was so looking forward to cake. And then I didn't get any cake that day and I didn't watch Julia eat two cakes.

And I think I got carrot cake. which also had walnuts in it. Yeah. Also, carrot doesn't belong in cake. I didn't just like, gleefully eat two pieces of cake and not give Abby any cake. For a moment, I was like, why didn't we swap? But you saved my life that day.

I did. I did. You're welcome. Yeah, both socially and physically. Yeah. If you would like to see me and Julia's only photo together. Actually, until this podcast, we now have a few more. True.

If you want to see our only picture without the worst case scenario, logo in it. Where I am not being paid. We're professional friends only. I've learned from this. If you'd like to see the photo, because my God, is it worth it?

I cannot sell this photo to you enough. It's my favorite photo in the world. You can find it on our socials at WCS pod. Whilst you're there, click the link in the bio, and that will take you to wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a little rate, a little review. Follow. Word of mouth is so powerful.

It is. I cannot tell you the effect of word of mouth old school no someone tagged us in their story the other day and it made my day so if you can tag us in an Instagram story if you're enjoying it, recommend it to friends

or leave us a review we'd really appreciate it. It's really good for myself as too. Yeah and the podcast but mostly me okay Abby yes it's the 21st of November 2000

ooh Is this when everyone thought we were going to be dead? No, that was a year. No, we're nearly a year past that, yeah. We're still here. We're still here. We're still here. Okay.

Michelle Renee is a 35-year-old bank manager and a single mother to seven-year-old Brea. After a long day at work, Michelle is relaxing on her sofa with Brea, who's playing on her Game Boy. Did you have a Game Boy? No. I had a D-Ass.

Oh, my God. Is that your earliest? oh wow okay we're not going down this road suddenly they hear a loud crashing behind them Michelle turns to see three people dress completely in black brandishing guns and storming into their house

that is never good right Michelle and Brea has happened quite a lot all the time every Friday oh god you should really move that's not great the other day our neighbour sent us a little text being like just to let you know there's been attempted breakings on our road so no way um that's alarming yeah like that's not that fun i guess

just just very real that is quite real it's been like yeah like on our road i think there's been like three and then and then our neighbor like was all braggy like i'm so glad we've had all our c tv cameras put in you're like okay okay so that's gonna catch the robber whilst it's robbing your house yeah and then ash was like oh no i didn't lock the back door oh god and we were all out from the day Ash, ashes crystals, isn't she? Yeah, come on. She was like, don't worry, I locked it with the power of the moon. The moon is not going to protect you from a robber.

Okay, so mass gunmen, brandishing guns. Wow. That's usually what gunmen have. Storm the house. Michelle and Brea scream, like, obviously. Brea runs towards the door while two of the gunmen go for Michelle. One of them grabs her by her hair and forces her onto the ground and then binds her with duct tape.

No. It's NASA. Yeah, it's like the duct tape's been used for evil now. We have to take it out of the survival toolkit, do we? If it's... Unless she also had duct tape and then she, like, duct tape him back. Well, let's see. Let's see what happens.

Yeah, okay. So, she's bound. Michelle looks up and sees Brea, who is... The daughter, who is face down with a gun to her head. How old's the daughter again? Seven. so the gunmen took their time explaining why they were there and they told her they had been following her for months

Michelle said it was very much that kind of mind control thing that they were doing like we know everything about you including the fact that she was a branch manager at a local bank so Brea then says to the gun we want all your little mini pens Yeah, that's what they're in it for Where'd you keep them? Yeah. Where are the little pencils?

Just go to IKEA. So Brea then says to the gunman, Are you going to kill my mummy? Are you going to kill me? Oh my God. And they respond, no, not if your mummy does everything we tell her to do. You're going to rob the bank for us, or we will kill you, but we'll kill your daughter first.

And they said, we're going to stay here all night with you so that you know what to do. And they drilled her over and over again with instructions. for how they wanted her to rob the bank the next day. Are they still wearing masks? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, the whole time they're wearing masks.

That's a good sign. It is a good sign. Whilst the lead gunman was calling the shots, he was also communicating on a walkie-talkie with another accomplice, calling each other Money One, who was the ringleader, who was in the house, and then Money Two, who was a female voice on the end of the walkie-talkie. Interesting. Money One and Money-2.

So I'm not a fan of those nicknames. Not the most creative. It's not very imaginative, is it? Like, you've had a chance to have a fun there. I mean, later on, there's a character called Bones. So he's done much better on the old, yeah, nicknames. I mean, that's not the most original, though. How do you get a nickname like Bones?

I think you do it yourself. He's given that to himself. Or maybe he got a boner in class once, and he was like, Bones. I hope that's the reason. I really hope that's the origin story. for that. No, if you get a boner in class, it's not, you don't get a good.

It's not, you don't get a corner. Bones is way too cool. You get like Mommy Lover or whatever. Yeah. Where did Mommy come into that? Because you know, I feel like the kid he's getting a boner in class is also the one that called the teacher mom. Oh, okay, I see.

He like accidentally called the teacher mom and then immediately got an erection. Right, okay. Yeah, so Mommy Lover. And then you get called Mommy Lover for the last time. So, money one and money too. money two alerts money one there's a car coming up the drive

it's Michelle's housemate Kimbra as soon as Kimbra walks through the door one of the intruders shoves his gun in her face Michelle is now on her feet and she pushes the guy's hand away and says don't do this don't hurt her

so he swings the gun back in Michelle's face and says don't ever fucking touch me again which I would absolutely shit my pants at I can't imagine how I've already shan my face I did wonder what that smell was. So Michelle is beginning to realize

that this could be the last night she spends with her daughter and they're both duct taped and in separate rooms. At 6am, it's time for Michelle to get ready for work. They like get her ready. She gets dressed and starts doing her hair when Money One stops her and says, we need to put the dynamite on you now. No.

Yeah. This is like, um, evil genius yeah neck bomb yeah so only money one is there at the moment no there's three so there's money one and then two people who didn't get they didn't even get they didn't even well there's bones there's bones but that's his nickname generally um but i don't know what the other one was called they just weren't referred to during this just spare change sure yeah spare change one spare change too yeah uh they strapped the dynamite to Michelle So sorry. Go on.

This is probably, you're probably going to tell me anyway. But I assumed the reason they were getting her to do it was because she already worked there and so she could do it kind of not obviously. If you're all strapping dynamite... Then she has an incentive to do it. Right, but people are going to see that dynamite's strapped to her. Well, not because it's strapped to her body

and then she's wearing clothes on the top. They didn't go with dynamite on the outside. Well, that's what I thought. As outer wear. I thought really like evil genius where you could very much see it. Oh, no, no, no, no. This is concealed dynamite.

So not like a dynamite gilae, more of like a dynamite underwear vest. It kind of, it is a vest. It is a vest. It's like a white vest. Oh, it is a vest. Like a big oversized white vest. Yeah. It kind of looks like an apron.

Do we have pictures of this? Is this why you know? Yeah, I do have pictures. So if you want to see the picture at WCS pod. Look at that. What a pro. So they put those over their like bodies and then strap the dynamite. to their backs, so they can't see the dynamite, but it's on their back.

Like, they've seen it before it gets strapped to the back. So Michelle, Brea and Kimbra all have the dynamite strapped to their backs. So I guess that stops her going and being like, help. Exactly, exactly. Because she could, yeah, she could just go to the bank, say help, and then they shut all the doors down, lock her in there. They'd still have her daughter. But they still have the daughter.

Anyway, but yeah. Money One pulls out what looks like a doorbell, and explains it's a detonation device. And if Michelle makes one false move, he's pressing the button and they're all dead. They then put Brea in her bedroom wardrobe. And Michelle tries to reassure her. And then Brea says, be brave, mummy.

Which is so sad. And the money one then gives Michelle a briefcase with a duffel bag inside that she'll need to fill, obviously with the money. And then he crouches down in the back of her car and they drive to the bank. so as she's leaving the car money one says don't fuck this up report right yeah just don't fuck it up so she takes her briefcase and heads into the bank once inside she grabs one of the bank tellers

and pulls them into the vault with her she explains she's going to clear out the vault and then shows her the dynamite struck to her back she opens the bag and starts shoving money in it as fast as she can and once the bag is stuffed with $360,000, she leaves. You can't even get a flight in London for that. To be fair, yeah. It is like, when you think of bank robbery, obviously that is a huge sum of money. Oh my God, I'd love it.

But like... Still couldn't get a house with it. Yeah. And it's being split between three people. Yeah. It's not worth it, guys. Not worth it. Don't, don't, if you're thinking of going into bank robbery, don't.

Don't do it. Or pick a... Bigger bank? I don't know how much money banks are allowed to actually have on site. Is there like a... Give her two duffel bags. Yeah.

She just filled the duffel bag. They didn't give her a specific... They only gave her one bag. They gave her one bag. After all that. Exactly. Load her up. Get a couple...

Yeah. What's the donkey? What's the donkey? You know, you like, you pack it up until they go. Oh, Bukaroo. Bacaroo. Bacarua. Bacarua.

Yeah. Saddle her up. See how many you can get on. poor Michelle sorry sorry really she's got dynamite strap also oh yeah she's got dynamite strapped to her back so maybe don't Bukaru her because she will literally explode only if you put the final bag on exactly yeah but how much is too much what's the final bag that's the problem and then that's the money gone too this is awful we cannot so so but she's told this lady she's told yeah she's

told the bank tell her and they're not doing the usual like ink on it or anything Well, this is going to come in later. Stick a pin in that. Okay. We're coming back to that. It's in. Thank you. So, she's filled the bag, she's out the door.

As soon as she's out the door. I can't believe they only gave her one bag. That is mental, isn't it? You've got two hands. Come on, you got two hands. Give her two bags. You got two shoulders. You're getting half the money here.

You could give her a bum bag, got the waist. Oh, I knew. There's so... How much you fit in a bum bag? Look, I've travelled to Edinburgh Fringe. with my entire wardrobe. I know how much you can take. I'm an overpacker to the core.

And they put a lot of effort in here and they didn't think to just buy a wheelie suitcase? A wheelie suitcase. Yeah, but how suss does that look? I mean, it's quite clever that they put the duffel bag in the briefcase. So she looks like she's just walking to work. Who goes to work with a briefcase?

Somebody works in a bank. What, really? Is that real? Are you joking? People go to work with briefcases. Yes. Like who? Have you watched any film ever? Yeah, of course they do.

People who work in the city. Lawyers. Nah, they're all backpacks. I don't see a single person on the cheap with a briefcase. Yeah, we work. What? The jewelry quarter. We work in the jewelry.

Yeah. Anybody, look like there are so many professions where people use. Is that real? I love that. you just because you personally use a backpack, you can't imagine anybody else using anything else. Everyone has a backpack now. No, they don't. Briefcases are so impractical. You can only take flat stuff. Yeah, like important documents. And you're not like a little nerdy boy. Yes. Do you think 60 year old men and women go into work care if they look like a nerdy little boy? They look like

professional people with briefcases. No, I, show me, show me one person with a briefcase. If you are Somebody who goes to work with the briefcase, please, please, please, please, send us a message. Not real. No real. Not anymore. Yeah. What year was this? Okay, maybe in 2000. This was 2000. I, people still use briefcases. Where's she put it up at lunch? In the briefcase. But that's so... Also, people who use briefcases probably get taken out for lunch. They probably have very fancy three-course lunches. What? As a bank teller. She's a bank manager, I'll have you know. Oh, I'm so sorry. Also, this is not her briefcase. Of course. This is the... They all.

eat at the shard. Yeah. Well, not her because she lives in San Diego, but yeah. The San Diego's equivalent. Sure. Like they do, like, it's mad to me that you live in London now and you haven't seen anybody walking around with a briefcase.

No. My friend's a lawyer. She has a tote bag. Okay. Okay. Just. Yeah. I mean, a tote bag is entirely impractical, but women of our age.

insist on using them, even with their laptops. I'm going to tally how many people I see with a briefcase. Sit in Liverpool Street Station. Well, I've got... For a morning. I've got stuff on. Like, I'm not going to... Oh, well, don't do that.

Where are you going to do this tally then? In comedy clubs? On the tube. Oh. On the tube when you're out and about. That's not happening. On the tube between the hours of 7pm and 11 p.m. You're going to see loads of briefcases there.

I'll travel at rush hour. Okay. Make a video for the podcast and prove. I will. Prove it. I'm going to film every man in a suit with a backpack I see. I want you to, okay, you have to do it from between the hours of 8 and 9.30 a.m. And you need to travel.

Can I do home time rush hour? Right, deal. Deal. You're not doing this round Camden. Like, don't do this. Don't do, you're losing confidence very quickly on how many people use briefcases. Because you're going to do it in the wrong end. I feel like I'm going to have to do a separate experiment myself.

Okay, poor Michelle has left the bank. The duffel bag would be less suspicious. I see a briefcase. I'm like some spy shits going on here. That's such. That's weird. She's bowling out of the bank with two duffel bags, one on each shoulder. And you're like, yeah.

I'd be like, she's going to the gym. She probably plays netball. Yeah. She's got bibs for the whole team in there. Like, finally, Michelle got a normal bag. Fucking up. Oh, weirdo. She's out of the bank, she's got her bag.

She throws the money in the car and drives, but after a couple of blocks, money one tells her she's got to get out. And then he says, I'll leave the car further down the road. So you just keep walking and eventually you'll get to the car and then they will have scarpered with the money.

Right. What about the dynamite? Still strapped to her back. Dynamite is not moved. No, no, but like, is he going to take it off her? I don't think he's concerned. Yeah, he's not. Right, you're just stuck with that.

Yeah, you. can deal with that problem. I can't believe they're giving her car back. I was surprised by that. That's why I was being like he seems. I thought she'd just get out and then they'd drive off, take the car. Yeah. But I guess police will be looking for the car.

Yeah. It makes more sense of, yeah. Okay, so she does exactly what they say. She gets out and starts walking. Eventually she finds the car empty and drives straight back to her house. Michelle bursts into the house and it's eerily quiet. No. She calls out for Brea and Kimbra and doesn't hear anything.

And then she walks through the house, calls out again, and then here's a faint noise coming from Brea's wardrobe. She's still there, unharmed, free of the dynamite. They've taken the dynamite off Brea and Kimbra. Oh. They're still in the wardrobe. So now they just have to get the dynamite off Michelle. Yeah.

So they very carefully cut the dynamite off Michelle and then run to the neighbour's house who calls 911. In total, they were held hostage for 14 hours. Oh my God. Everyone turns up, local police, bomb squad, FBI. Where do you then put that dynamite? Yeah, very gently, just gently on the bed, I think. Which were you making bomb room?

Yeah. I think the bedroom. Really? Well, just because there's so much softness around it. Yeah, yeah. You don't want to put it on a hard surface. You don't want to risk it rolling onto the floor in the kitchen. Also, like, I do want to be able to, like, have lunch and stuff.

Right. You know what I mean? Like, you don't want to think about the dynamite. Lock it away in the, bedroom. When I had the wasp issue, for example, I was able to close my bedroom. This is definitely the same thing. I was able to close my bedroom door, lock the wasp in the bedroom and go about my life. You know? I still had free roam with the rest of the house. Yeah. So everyone turns out bomb squad, FBI, they're all there. They analyze the dynamite and realized pretty quickly it's not real.

It's fake dynamite. It was made. I was going to ask about this actually. Oh, wow, I'll tell you about it now. It was made from spray-painted cut-down broom handles with tape and wires. And to be fair, I've seen it. And like, when you know that, you're like, oh, yeah. But then I don't know what dynamite looks like. I'm going off of cartoons.

Because my... That was my quote, because you were like... I was like, is it fake? But then you said, they saw it before they put it on us. So that's why I didn't ask that question. I was like, oh, it must have been real. And it's got wires coming off in. Yeah, if anything is wires, you're just going to be like,

I wouldn't query it. Yeah, exactly. Right, Michelle has this insane memory. Like, she's really good at remembering details, which is... Love that in a person. Perfect. Oh my God, I hate when someone brings you gossip

and then you ask for the details and they're like, I don't remember. And I don't want to be, I don't want to be that guy. Are you kidding me? But gossiping with a straight white male, poindless. They have no details. No details.

Like, how long has Alex known me? And I have drilled it into him. I'm like, if my name even comes up, in conversation. You lock in, you listen, you press record on your brain, you listen to every little detail and still he'll come to me like, oh, so-and-so said something about you the other day and I'd be like, what? And he'd be like, oh, I didn't remember. Don't bring it up, Alex. Also, what a can of worms, so-and-so said something about you the other day? I know, he'll literally be like, risky mood. Yeah, like I heard someone talking about you on a podcast. I don't remember what.

Oh, what? I need to get them to edit that podcast. okay so Michelle has a great memory she'd be the perfect person to gossip with she really would in particular she's very good at remembering like facial details so oh my god that's really good she was positive that she recognized money one's eyes she was like I've seen those eyes before wow he's wearing a balaclava she can only see the eyes and she was like I've got a good memory I ain't got a memory that good me neither I couldn't pick your eyes out and a lineup, and I see them every week. That's horrible, because I have beautiful eyes.

You do have great eyes, but like... They are my best feature. Once I'm not looking at them, they're gone. And you should be looking at them, because there's no boobs to be looking at. Everyone looks in the eyes. Those are my only two choices. Yeah.

Where else are you going to be looking? I don't want to give you a complex. Okay. I think there's all the time, though. You know, when you, like, people sketch the faces, Like a caricaturist. No, please. Oh.

As a witness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was talking to my dad about this the other day. Like, I don't know how to explain someone's face. Yeah. Even like shape, face shape. There's so many variables. Like, it's, yeah.

I could only identify someone by listing the things they've done to wrong me. That's all I remember. Yeah, but what are at their face? Like, you could just like mean in the eyes. You know what I mean? And then it wouldn't like anything like them. Real spite, real spite in the eyes. Yeah, like a spitey face, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a bitchy mouth. You need a police sketch artist who's on the same wavelength as you. Yes. You need like... Maybe that's how they do it. Maybe they just get like a sketch artist that like speaks your language. That's what they need.

That is. Maybe you should retrain for all the like basic girls out there. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

she recognizes the eyes and she knows she's so positive that he had come to her desk at the bank the day that they had been kidnapped and she remember did he have like a vibe or does she just remember every customer no he had a vibe he had a vibe so she remembered him because he'd been weird with her in the bank he sat at her death how bullsy is that sitting at her desk at the bank the day you know you're going to break into her house and kidnap her so he sits down at her desk and asks the same weird questions over and over again um like he says he works in a nightclub and he wants to set up like a business account and stuff and then a woman comes in he introduces her to the woman oh this is Lisa and then she says Chris we need to get

going he hands her his business card with his real name on it his name is Christopher Butler so he's A woman's come in. He's introduced her. Oh, this is Lisa. Real name. Real name. And then here's my card with my actual name on it. Why?

Because they've been following her for months. So it's not like they needed to do this. They knew her schedule. Yeah, they weren't finding out any info. No. It's just, I think it is just like, arrogance. Yeah.

Kind of a like, fuck you. Like a control thing. Yeah. Power trip. I want to just fuck with your. I just want to like go in knowing that I'm going to, to do this later yeah yeah yeah that's mad gross isn't it like a little warm up just so stupid so dumb it blows my mind when I read these stories how stupid some criminals are and honestly I was thinking

about the survival toolkit and stupidity oh if you can find yourself a stupid one ideal if you're gonna have a crime committed against you make sure it's done by an idiot that might have to go in the survival toolkit for this because there's very little else we got to go in so bear it in mind i mean i guess a briefcase here we go i'm gonna get you a briefcase i genuinely can't think of a bag that has like less it's just a folder with handles yeah very useful if you've got important documents you can't fold no you just put a folder in your backpack for it to get all crumpled i don't think so where are you put in your snacks where are you putting your headphones there's nothing to say you can't also have a backpack as well as a briefcase.

Right. The briefcase... Didn't consider that. Okay. I thought we were picking one bag. Two bags. Multiple bags. But then that's a real confusion of vibe.

Briefcase and backpack. Who are you? Maybe if you've got like a leather backpack to fit the briefcase vibe or you can get a briefcase made up canvas. Now you say it. I have seen a lot of satchels. Here we go. Are we counting a satchel as a briefcase?

No, but I would say it's in the same ballpark. Okay. So, Michelle is so convinced... Just it. If you'd say she'd say she'd go into the bank with a... a satchel. None of this would have happened. I'd have had a reaction. It wasn't a satchel. That's very normal. It was a briefcase. Maybe if they'd had a satchel, the briefcase does smack of, like, somebody who doesn't work in a bank, assuming what somebody who works in a bank would use. I really

don't think they actually would. But then I am also doing that by assuming that people who work in the city or her briefcases. So maybe you're actually being like a real ignorant. And actually, well, I don't think that counts. I think that might be a little extreme. You're a bad. I don't think so. I don't think, don't label me with that. I don't want to be that guy. This is why we're only work for him. Back to Michelle.

Michelle was so convinced that money won was Christopher Butler. She insisted that the police go to her desk and check for the business card. For sure. She was also confident the woman who would come in and said, Chris, we need to go. was the same voice that she heard on the walkie-talkie. Would make sense. Money too. Exactly.

So the police went to the bank, located the card, looked up Christopher Butler, and found out he had a history of robbing banks. No! Yeah. Literally the dumbest criminal in history. So they went to his house

where him and his fiancé Lisa Ramirez lived a few miles from the bank. what? Yeah. And not long after that they identify the two other gunmen, another Christopher, Christopher Huggins and Robert Ortiz, or Bones, as we know him. Christopher Huggins really needs to get a nickname because that is the sweetest name. Isn't it adorable? You can't be a criminal called hugging. Yeah, it sounds like he's part of Winnie the Pooh, Christopher Huggins. Or it's like Santa's name. His real name.

Yeah. So Christopher Huggins was arrested at a traffic stop, not long after the kidnapping. And in the glove box, they found a BB gun that looked like a real gun. They found the duffel bag

that had the money had been in. They found several pairs of black gloves and a homemade balaclava. So literally everything involved in the crime. They also found Michelle's credit card and the money straps from the banks are the paper that is wrapped up in when they bundle the money that's specific to the bank and they found a shitload of those in the back of the car this is why boys

need to clean their car exactly exactly i bet there was like tons of mcdonald's packets as well yeah oh they also found the doorbell detonator in in the car so just the whole kit and caboodle yeah they made it easy for them really they really did at the house they found lots of cut up broom handles and red spray paint. Some of the spray paint even had Lisa Ramirez's fingerprints on them. So, literally the easiest

crime to detect. We know who the crafty one was. Exactly, yeah. I did think that would definitely be your role in the bank robbery. Yeah, I would 100% want to make the fake dynamite. So the detective said, it was crazy. I've never seen so much physical evidence

left at a crime scene. But they didn't try to get a bit of Any of it? None of it. Just stick it in the back of the car. Yeah. These are truly the dumbest people. Really?

But, however, they didn't find any of the money. So... Wow. And can they arrest them without that? Well, they did find... They did find some of the money. Right. When they arrested Christopher Huggins,

they found 90,000 that he'd stashed away, but he'd already spent several grand in Vegas. So, using that money. really well. Just lost it all. Just lost it. Just yeah, big weekend. Spaffed it in a big weekend in Vegas. Ortiz is now on the run. He's on the run for another three months before he's arrested and he's found with $32,000 left. Huggins and Ortiz both give full confessions which completely corroborate Michelle's account. Money won or Christopher Butler denies everything in attempt to save himself and Lisa. It's not just hilarious they even had

code names. Yeah. So, yeah, what's the point? When you've already told the victim and given her your business card with your name on it and introduce the other one to her. Money one.

Money one. Yeah, exactly. Ridiculous. Also, on a walkie dokey, anybody can tune in to that frequency that you're talking on. I just can't help but think this was like a bedroom roleplay

that went too far. It does kind of sound like that, doesn't it? Call me money one. Come in money too. Let's take this out of the bedroom Into the bank You really didn't have to involve other people in this No

Could have saved yourself a lot of trouble Yeah Just go to like an orgy That's your advice Is it? Go to a sex party Yeah Do it with some consensual adults For sure

Plenty of balaclavas there I'd imagine Fit right in So Christopher Butler denies everything In attempt to save him and Lisa But Lisa sings like a canary She tells them everything

She admits that she was the voice on the walkie-talkie. She actually takes credit for the whole plan. She's like, actually, it was kind of my idea. Like, it was kind of a good plan, do you think? She was really proud of her cross. She was, she really was. She was like, how convincing was that dynamite? Yeah, it wasn't that good thing.

Yeah. She said they split the money three ways, but of hers and butler's money, over a hundred grand was stolen, which is karma, I suppose. Yeah. How? How?

I don't know. Someone broke. stolen the money. It's just been a disaster start. I would imagine they were probably down the pub going, you never guess how much money we'd just come into. And then someone went, oh, I know where you live. I'm going to go and take that money.

That's insane. Yeah. She then tells police that Michelle was in on the plan. Ooh. Twist. That's a dick move. Isn't it such a dick move? Was she?

Well. What? police are now starting to think Lisa is 100% the mastermind Lisa, not Michelle Lisa, the one who's just confessed I think she's definitely the mastermind she knows everything

she was 100% the plan Well she's not going into the bank being like high I'm Chris She's obviously going to be the smart one She's the one who pulled Chris out of that situation Yeah However now that she's thrown Michelle into the mix

They have to investigate And they have to assume she was a suspect and rule her out. So they are pretty convinced that she is innocent because they make her, Brea and Kimbra relive the whole experience. They film it. You can watch the tape of it.

It's actually quite hard to watch because she is talking it through. She's obviously like reliving it. She's absolutely devastated and traumatized. She's like crying through it. It's really horrible. And they strap the dynamite to them again even to Brea, the seven-year-old.

They like make her wear the dynamite again. What do they gain from that? I guess like to get a real picture of what had happened and then also they're kind of testing to see if Michelle was, they're seeing how she reacts to all of this to see if she's a good victim in quotes. Do you have to bring the seven year old into it?

Right. I don't, yeah. This was 2000. It was a different time. Okay. So now Michelle is being accused of being an accomplice. They look into her past to see if they're, was anything that might suggest she could be part of the plan. And Michelle is very honest about her past. She tells them that she ran away from home when she was 15 because there was an abusive

situation there. She worked as a stripper for years. She had no high school diploma and worked her way up to regional vice president. And then she took the job as the bank manager so that she could be home more with Brea. So she reached an incredible level in the... the corporate world with no qualifications, like put herself through all of that. But in order to get onto the corporate ladder,

she did embellish on her CV. She said she had qualifications that she didn't actually have. She said she had experience she didn't actually have. But clearly she could do the job. Like she worked her way up pretty well. She had also, in the past, filed for bankruptcy. So all of this really damaged her credibility, making her...

Why? She's being honest. Doesn't that make her more credible? Yeah, but the fact that she lied previously, if they can point out any time. What, if you've ever lied in your life, are you kidding me? Yeah, that means no one's a good. Exactly. No one is a good witness or a good victim.

Like, but that's what the defence lawyer's job is to do is to like use anything they can against you. And that's what they did. So in 2001, the suspects are awaiting trial for kidnapping and bank robbing. Michelle and Brea are recovering from intense PTSD and they are both reliving the ordeal over and over again in June Michelle decides to move Brea to her grandmothers

in Alaska so she sends Brea off to Alaska and then she decides I'm just going to get rid of everything and go back to San Diego get rid of everything and then drive up to Alaska will start again so she does that and she has nine days to get from San Diego to Alaska because she's got to get there for Brea's 8th birthday.

Like that's the deadline. So she does it, she gets there and she says that they felt safer in Alaska. So a year passes and they travel back to San Diego for the trial. Lisa Ramirez's lawyer, Herb Weston, proposes a plea deal given that she was like 100% guilty

and confessed. Yeah. So he suggests a plea deal but because the case is so, strong the prosecution team turn him down um because they've got like all the physical evidence the confession so because Lisa implicates Christopher in the confession a judge rules her whole confession inadmissible in court so they can't use any of that video so now her lawyer herb can really say whatever he likes she can change

her story it wasn't her she's not guilty it was all Michelle it was all Michelle's plan like and he goes to town like it's really it's really rough what he does to her so if you go into a police interview and I was like yeah Julia did it as well and so did Neil like they then couldn't use that I think because they had separate trials if you mention another person in in your, there must be a rule, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, but there must be some kind of rule where if you've mentioned somebody else in your confession

and you're both being tried for it. But that's evidence, that seems mad to me. Yeah, me too. But I feel like there's so many of these loopholes, aren't there? And it's really like, it's really devastating. Because surely she's just a witness in his trial and that's evidence against him. should be used.

Yeah. I don't know. Okay. But so, but the whole Michelle, we don't trust Michelle bullshit. Yeah. He used,

so now her lawyer, Lisa's lawyer is going to use that angle to be like. Right, but she's still going to be a witness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Which also means that he can cross-examine her. Right. Which is what he does. Okay. So, um, Lisa's attorney goes to town and Michelle absolutely destroying her credibility.

In his words, his strategy was to beat the hell out of the victim. What a no shy. Yeah, really goes to show what a piece of shit this guy is. Michelle gets very pissed off, obviously. Yep. At being treated like she's a criminal. And Herb says, angry witnesses don't come across as credible. So he's literally just like poking her until she gets angry.

And then he's like, see, look how angry she is. She's definitely a bad person. Oh yeah, because it would be totally normal to not be angry after this. Yeah, it's like when your sibling is whining you up and your parents are like, don't react, that's exactly what they want, don't react. I would be a terrible witness. Yeah, me too. I'd get so wound up.

I'd be angry from the beginning. Yeah. I'm such an angry person. I'd also cry. You'd give a real show on the witness stand, I think. I'd be entertaining, but I don't think it would be class as credible, apparently. No, clearly not. So Herb argues that Michelle lied about recognizing Lisa's voice on the walkie-talkie.

And annoyingly, there's no record of her saying that she had recognized the voice in the FBI reports, but she had said it to the detective. And he says, yeah, she told me, but they haven't made any record of it. So he's like, well, doesn't say anything here. So it looks like she's just making it all up. Lisa also admitted that she was the voice on the walkie-talkie. But because they can't use that evidence, she can now say whatever she wants. Yeah, madness.

The next problem for Michelle is that in banks, they have bait money. So when you said, so take that pin out because we've come back, there we go. Let's go. So bait money is like special money that they can track. So it's not the ink that explodes. It's trackable money. That's a better idea. And which obviously Michelle would know being the bank manager that there is such a thing as

bait money however she didn't give the robbers the bait money she gave them normal money she's terrified yeah and she said you wouldn't want to risk fucking it up she said um she was instructed specifically by the robbers no funny money so she didn't want to risk it yeah like they've got her daughter you're not risking that exactly right so i see that makes it look like she's in on it because she wants real money exactly and she's got like inside of information oh my god yeah Finally, Weston announces Michelle must have been part of the plot because what kind of a mother who thinks she has real dynamite strapped to her back would return to the house where her daughter is

and potentially endanger her life. Because she think, because dynamites also strapped to her daughter. Exactly. And so, but he's like, she must have known the dynamite wasn't real. Michelle, in fact, didn't know whether Brea was like alive or dead. Yeah. And so it's just going immediately back to try. and protect her because of course of course that's what you do she doesn't know how to take it off yeah

exactly so at christ she sorry how was it strapped could they take it off why did they cut it off because it was strapped with duct tape duct tape yeah duct tape you are taking off the shelf yeah it's really lost it shine hasn't it really fucked it up so at Christopher Butler's trial You were such a fan. At Christopher Butler's trial, they asked her about her sex life, they picked apart her finances, and generally painted her as an irresponsible, selfish person who would do anything for money.

I hate it. And so she must have been part of this bank robbery. So basically, anything they didn't attack her on in Lisa's trial, they got her on in Christopher's. She was really pulled apart, like it's horrible. Michelle was questioned for three days on the stand. Now it's Christopher's turn on the stand, and he protects Lisa and makes out

she couldn't have been the mastermind because Michelle definitely was. He even tells the court that he and Michelle had an affair and she had recruited him in the supermarket. They just bumped into each other in the supermarket and they got talk and she was like, oh, I work in a bank.

Where I look for fellow criminals? Sure. Co-op. Then they went back to her to, sorry, they went back to her house with Huggins and Ortiz and they all smoked weed and then came up with the plant to rob the bank and then they do it that morning

like that's his story that it's all like definitely a morning of weed yeah exactly well so when did they make the dynamite then yeah you're like oh it just all happened you've got to you've got to at least give it overnight to dry exactly exactly that spray paint's not drying that is not a fast craft no you've made costumes

there's been sewing involved so you're not doing that high you're not sewing when you're high are you I don't know I've never been high You're asking for trouble. Oh, me neither. Do you legally has to say that? So there was no evidence that they were in a relationship. Obviously, it's all bullshit.

And he failed to mention any of this in any of his police interviews. This was just clearly a strategy that they'd come up with for trial. So the verdict takes five days of, of deliberation. Oh no, that's not good. Not good when it takes that long. Yeah. Because that means they, like when it's quick,

it's gully. It's obvious, yeah. So Christopher Butler is found guilty. Good. Of bank robbery and the kidnapping of Brea and Kimbra. But the jury were hung nine to three on whether or not he kidnapped Michelle.

One was completely convinced that his story was right and that they were in a relationship and that Michelle was part of it and the other two were unsure and so he didn't get convicted of that. Lisa Ramirez was found not guilty on all counts.

What? So the actual mastermind, not guilty. She confessed, not guilty. That's insane. Isn't it? Isn't it? Just can you imagine

that injustice is like, Her lawyer knows she's guilty. Yeah, but they know most of their clients are guilty. They've done their job. The judge knows she's guilty. Yeah, that must be infuriating for police. Who she confessed. Yeah.

And for Michelle. But obviously for Michelle. I'm just like, that's multiple people being like she literally said. Yeah. So because Huggins and Ortiz, they... Didn't they say, yeah, she was involved? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So why doesn't that count for anything? I guess they weren't called in her trial. I don't know. That seems stupid. So they, and they confessed to everything. So they, and they pled guilty, so they didn't have to go through similar trial. They obviously found guilty. That was much more straightforward.

So Michelle and Brea were treated for PTSD for several years. Michelle wrote a book called Held Hostage, where she recounts the harrowing true tale. of her and her daughter's kidnapping as well as the subsequent criminal investigation, which sounds like as traumatic like the pressure that was put on her

and the suggestion that she was part of it like awful. Oh, I'll just read you so the opening of her book is hardcore so I'll just read you the opening paragraph of her book. Okay. Okay. Burning vomit crept into my mouth I swallowed my hollow stomach

was twisting and gnawing as I lay frozen in my bed. I could smell the dank stench of them. I could hear their loathsome voices and I felt them crawling under my skin. I was afraid to close my eyes and I was afraid not to. I knew it didn't make any difference.

They would always be there long after they were gone penetrating the veils of my sleep, growling, shut up bitch or will pistol whip you in front of your kid. Wow. Yeah. So since all of this, Renee has, as well as writing the book, she's founded a non-profit organisation called The Violent Trauma Awareness Project to help other victims of violent crime. Renee's two other non-fiction books in the works, Fear, Fear Go Away, is a practical guide

about how to deal with trauma, including many of the techniques she and her daughter learned to replace feelings of fear with healthier impulses. The other is called I Can Be Your Hero, an inspirational self-health book about relationships, not just parenting. Today, René doesn't dwell on her accomplishments, but focuses more on how to her experiences may help others. The key message is about after something like this, you have decisions to make, she said, you can be a person of integrity or not. And that is the story of Michelle Renee. and Brea and Kimbra. And do you know what's happened to the Robert,

like where they are now? Oh, they got multiple life sentences. Really? Just for, even though no one died or anything. Christopher, Christopher did because he, yeah, no one died. I think when it comes to money, America really go to town on sentencing. That is messed up, isn't it?

Yeah. It's like stealing people who murder get lesser sentence. Or attempted murder. Yeah, there's not even start on that one. Yeah. But he, yeah, he got, and actually, so did Huggins and Ortiz. They got really lengthy sentences too. And then Lisa is just like, off you go.

And we don't know where Lisa is now. I don't know, no. That's crazy. That is crazy because they didn't, I mean, awful people, stupid people, traumatize them, but they didn't hurt anyone. No, not physically. No. Yeah, I think they did a lot of mental damage, but yeah.

but yeah not yeah and then murder is get less that is weird wow okay yeah mad well what do we take from that see i don't know like a business card with the assailant's full name on it that would be good actually that is quite a good item yeah yeah uh photographic memory yes would also be helpful yeah really paying attention to those features yeah maybe just like a brain gym app yeah they used to be all the rage didn't they did what happened to them

doctor who was that guy oh anyway there was a brain training brain training yeah yeah did you used have to do at school just like sometimes like half a few class it'd be like okay and now everybody stand up we're gonna have a little like brain gym time you'd have to like tap your head red belly just to like, oh no. Get everyone going again. Oh. Um, did that work for you? I don't know. You tell me. Do you think it did? Should we introduce some brain training into the focus? Let's do some brain training. Keep us young. Keep us fit. In the brain. Um, yeah, we could do like, look at everything on the shelf. I'll cover the shelf and then you have to tell me what was on the shelf. I actually do love those games. I really love those games. I really love those games.

do you calling them a gamers it's a game right memory it's a game um yeah what you put in i'd actually the business card with the with the robber's name on it with the perpetrator's full name and address on is actually i think an ideal thing to put into the survival kit yeah it'll fit on the shelf too so that's good yeah whose name shall we put on who do we want to make the criminal neil producer neil nil nil hand over your business card do you have business cards i feel like you would have. Why? Also, do you have a, you have an Instagram business page? Is that the new business card now? You don't need a business card now. Surely you've got a little card with a QR code to that page. Step up, man. What are you putting in your briefcase? Abby, save the trees. Come on.

Save the trees. Everything's digital now. You should know this. Come on. We're about to go to Edinburgh Fringe, Julia. I know. Are you printing of business cards? A thousand flyers that will just end up on the floor in the bin. I'm actually getting recycled ones. What's that mean? It's made out of recycled paper. You're going to then recycle them after? I hope so.

Now, you can leave them in the street. Yeah, but at least I've stopped one cycle. You're just chopping down fresh trees for yours. I only deserve the best. Okay. Okay, that is one business card with full name and address of perpetrator in the survival toolkit. Yes.

Yes. Okay. First listener's story. This one's come from the Instagram DMs. Hey guys, absolutely loving the pod. I have a listener story for you that I hope you will enjoy. If it doesn't make it on, I hope it will at least make producer Neil laugh

or whoever reads your Instagram messages. This week's bear slash Labrador story. Oh, that was, when was that? I don't know how long ago that was. You know when they thought it was a bear and then it was a Labrador? That was a great one. Reminded me of the time I had my brain. breakfast stolen by a bear.

Oh. Bears are starting to become more prominent than sharks. I didn't realize how much interaction people had with bears. I think a lot. I think Canada, especially. They're everywhere. My friend Ellie's moving to Canada and I was like, bear spray. Get some bear spray.

Oh my God. She's outdoorsy as well. Yeah. Hey, bear. Do you teach her that one? I did. I told her. She didn't know about that.

Okay. Which means she obviously hasn't been listening to this podcast. God. And it's not actually that much of a supportive friend. I hope she doesn't get a. mauled by a bear now because she's like hey bear i hope she does because she didn't listen to my podcast no no no told her bear spray and i've taught her pocket knife very good so lucy in 2018 i was working on a ranch in northern california taking people out on trail rides into the mountains there was one

particular trail ride we did where we rode out for about four hours camped overnight and at an outpost it would, brackets, it would have been when the ranch was keeping cattle so the cowboys could keep an eye on their herd when they were up in the mountains, now it's just a nice place to visit. And we would ride back the next day. Once we arrived at the outpost, it was about 6 or 7 p.m., so we got to cooking dinner and putting our food away for the next day. Ellie actually told me apparently when you go camping in bear country,

you're meant to put your food up a tree so that like if a bear comes it goes for the food oh clever and it's like rather than your food being I was gonna say the bear can definitely climb the tree but as in like the bear will go over there

that's very smart and apparently she I can't remember if it was a friend or she'd heard a story but they'd done this and then these people went camping and they woke up in the night and they heard the

you know bear and they turned to their friend being like, did you put the food up the tree? And she was like, no, it's in the tent. How angry would you be in that moment? Yeah. Who can be asked to put the food up the tree at the end of the night?

Like, oh God. You better fucking do it, Julia. I said it good. If that was your response, if we were in a tent and I turned to you and I went, did you put the food up the tree? And you went, who can be asked? I'd be like, all right, well, you're in the mouth first.

Barely remember to take my makeup off at the end of the night. I'm not climbing a tree to put the supplies up there. I mean, obviously. I wouldn't be in bear country anyway. No, there we go. So, the outpost had a big brick underground fridge thing. Oh, that's helpful. Yeah, keeping the food underground kept it cool,

with a very heavy stone lid, kind of like a food tomb in the ground. She said, this is important for later, I promise, and it's like the little winky emoji, which you don't get from emails. This is a DM special. Around 9pm, as it was getting dark, we all headed to bed. As it was so warm in California in August

and we were in the middle of nowhere, we didn't sleep in tents. Oh my God, but just out in the open like a cowboy movie. No, thank you. Horrid. No, absolutely not. Unsubscribe. You'd just get bitten by everything. Yeah, no.

The family of guests we had with us decided to camp a short distance from us to stargaze and me and the other guide made our beds up. That sounds like a lie, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. We're going to camp over here to stargose. Yeah, and then they like go to an Airbnb. Yeah. And me and the other guy made our beds up under a tree not too far from where we had tied up the horses for the night.

At some point through the night, I was woken by the most terrifying noise I have ever heard. It was like a low bellowing snarling noise. That was bad. That was quite... That was a light whistle of anything. Give us your low snarling noise. Why are you just blowing out? Because that's what they do.

It's through their nose, isn't it? It's like, they said a snippet. Yeah, it's like a snarl though. Yeah. More of an oink, but we'll go with it. It was more of a hog. There we go. Kind of a sexy bear.

He's any Jewish. At first, I thought maybe it was a coyote or a bobcat or something. I heard it move over to where we had eaten our dinner and rustle around knocking things over I was terrified Eventually I don't know how I fell back asleep but a short while after was woken by the same noise

but this time much much closer So close in fact I could hear the creature's breath as it made the noises I'm going to continue There it is It woke my friend up next to me Who was equally as frightened we lay awake thinking this was it for us until the noise eventually stopped.

Morning did eventually come and the first thing I asked my friend was what the hell was that last night. She was relatively local and I am from Scotland. I missed the chance to a Scottish accent. You can do the rest of it. No, I'm okay. So the only thing you hear while camping here are midges and the occasional sheep. She said she wasn't sure but maybe a bear. She couldn't believe how close it sounded.

We got up to go and cook breakfast for our guests when we found the massive stone lid, which took at least two of us to lift, ripped from the top of the brick fridge. Yep, definitely a bear, she said. There's no way anything else could have moved that lid on its own. All of our food was gone. All the packets had been ripped open and our sausages, eggs and bacon we had for breakfast were mostly scoffed. We rode back to the ranch, hungry but alive. So that's the story

of how I thought I was going to die in the Californian Mountains in the middle of the night and had my breakfast stolen by a bear. Sorry, it's a long boy. I enjoy that. It wouldn't send via email for some reason. Lucy.

Thanks, Lucy. It's a good one, isn't it? That was really good. Enjoyed it. Oh, my gosh, she's in Edinburgh. Oh. So, we expect to see you at our Edinburgh Friends shows, Lucy.

See that? Come say hi. Aber Clark. try hard work in progress what's yours called decent promo wolves is what mine's called what time is it and that's at 830 you can find information about both of our shows in the episode notes along with the email address if you also want to contribute your worst case scenario your personal worst case scenario can i just say lucy in her instagram bio has taking the scenic route an emoji of camping surfing and mountains i don't know why she's here not our person that's the least that's the least my audience person i think i've ever we're relying on lucy for content for this podcast yeah yeah

lucy we need lucy keep going babe keep writing in visit bear country again let's get these stories going and it looks like from her pro for pictures she did marry her husband wearing a kilt so true scottish love that love that thanks lucy i hope i didn't give away too much personal info there um if i did neal will let it out thanks for listening