WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Cloud of Witnesses: St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Pt. 2

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Join Dominic and Fr. Adam as they continue discussing the life and teachings of St. Gregory Nazianzus.

Welcome back to Cloud of Witnesses, where we share the stories of the saints who help shape the church. Today, we are continuing our discussion with Father Adam, the chaplain here at Hillsdale College, talking about St. Gregory Nazianzus. If you haven't listened to our first episode, I recommend that you do, because we refer back to it a couple times here. But without further ado, this is the part two of our discussion. I hope you guys enjoy. Let's shift a little bit over to some of like his season. theology. You mentioned he was one of the Cappadocians, and then his five theological orations are some of the most important works that we have on the Trinity. He sort of develops this new language of speaking of the Holy Spirit as proceeding. Yes, he does that in his fifth theological

oration. Okay, yeah. So what all is that? How is it different from maybe like a Western view of looking at the Trinity in terms of relations? Is it the same? Is it different? Is it just... Yeah, I mean, it's too early at this point in history to talk about an Eastern versus a Western view. Some of those subtle differences sort of emerging later. in some sense And this is actually the area where I think there's some evidence perhaps that Augustine was familiar

with Gregory's writing because Augustine's the next major theological writer to play on that difference between generation versus procession and the only other rider that we know of who makes that distinction prior to Augustine as Gregory. Okay.

But the issue is that like there's now people debating in addition to people who are these new Aryans there's also people who are now that's sort of the divinity of the sun's been settled. there's this now the next question is what to do with this holy spirit guy there's this three-fold invocation that's part of our worship and you know we've got the

second one figured out but what about this holy spirit and you have people who are perfectly willing to admit the divinity of God the Son but aren't willing to go there with God the Holy Spirit. Gregory calls them Panuma Matakians fighters against the Spirit he calls them and he feels the need to defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit in addition to defending the full divinity of God the Son And his theological urges are taken up with that. And two things that Gregory has to deal with is, number one, is the Holy Spirit God in the same way God the son is?

Because, of course, the crucial term there is homoousias of one being or consubstantial with the father. Gregory actually has a falling out with Basil of Cesareo over this issue, not because Basil disagrees with the idea, but the politics of the term. And so Gregory insists that to defend the Spirit's divinity, you have to say, say he's homooseous with the Father. And he says that explicitly in the fifth Theological oration. He says, he's God. Does that mean he's homoousius? Yes, if he is God, is how that line flows in the sermon. So that's number one. So he's God, he's God in the same way and in the same manner that God, the Son is God, right? He's homooseous with the father. That, of course, creates a second question. If he's God in the same way that God, the Son is God,

then how is he not just a second son? Yes, yeah. How do we have this only begotten for the sun and the spirit as a separate category? And Gregory sort of leans into the Johanian language of the spirit proceeding. And the son is begotten. He's generated, is the language.

So the mode of his relationship with the father is that of generation. And the Holy Spirit's mode of relationship with the father and Gregory's theology is that of procession. That language comes from John's gospel. And then when Gregory's pressed to, well, I mean, he presses himself in the course of the rhetoric of his sermon, this is all on the Fifth Theological Oration. He says, well, how is, and one wonders if he's actually responding to hecklers in his audience, because the way sermons were recorded back then was by short-hand stenography. Okay.

And then oftentimes great preachers, Augustine does this, would go over the centergras of their live sermons and edit them as one of their last acts before they died. They would have literary executors, and they would actually curate their own literary output before they die. Interesting. Okay. And Gregory does that. So we have his collection of sermons as he wants us to have them. And so there's a question mark about whether or not, is he just asking the question rhetorically, or are people in the room with him heckling him? You see this is like Rostom's sermons where he's responding to the crowd of hippodrome outside or the lamplighters in the church distracting people and he'll like rebuke them.

and like he's clearly reacting in real time to his congregation. Yeah. And the stenographers are recording it, right? That's the sermon that we have survived. Anyway, so in Gregory's case, it's not clear if he's being heckled or not, but maybe he is. In any case, he's asked this question, well, like, what's the difference between proceeding and begetting? Like, you know, what this hair splitting difference that you're insisting makes all the difference in the world? What's the difference?

Yeah. And Gregor's reaction is just like, well, you tell me what it means to be begotten and I'll tell you what it means to proceed. And we will both of us go mad for diving into the divine mysteries, right? Yes. So he punts the mystery on the question. He just, he's content with scriptural language. Scripture talks about the sun being begot. It talks about the spirit being preceding.

It doesn't use the language for the other ever. Yeah. And so that's good enough. That's just the scriptural warrant. They're different because one is begotten. The other. And one proceeds. Okay.

And then Augustine plays off of that technical difference in his detritus. Okay. So that's one of my theories personally that Augustine was, in fact. at least broadly familiar with Gregory's ideas. Okay. Though we never cites him by name. Okay. That's really fun, yeah.

So shifting gears a little bit. There are people who sometimes associate St. Gregory Nazianzus with universalism, and they'll claim that he's a universalist. Do you think this is sort of a fair categorization of him? Do you think maybe it's murky whether or not he's a universalist? What's your take on that? I'll be honest with you. delved into this aspect of Gregory's theology in all that much detail. Okay. Gregory is not a speculative

or systematic theologian, unlike someone like Gregory of Nissa, who's highly speculative. Yeah. He's more speculative than like a John Chrysostom. He's just pretty vanilla orthodox. Gregory, of course, is giving us some new categories, some new ideas. But he's not nearly as that it was like Gregory of Nissa and certainly not as much as someone like Origin. That being said, origin in the late

4th century, or, you know, mid to late 4th century, was still very, very popular. He hadn't been formally condemned yet. That doesn't happen for the hundred years. But we know that Gregory of Nissa and Gregor of Nanzians were both deep lovers of origin, that they spent time studying his works

and we're very familiar with his style. And so there's some evidence here and there in the sermons that we have of Gregory's, where he seems to flirt with kind of vaguely what an origin's theology is the doctrine of apocatasticist, that all things are eventually returned to the source of their being. And, you know, for origin, that's a theological principle, not sort of a leftist, softy principle.

The idea is that, well, he's the source of all things. so like all things have to venture turn, go back to him if he is, if he is that thing. So it's a bit different kind of argument than like a modern day Unitarian Universalist who just wants God to be kind of nice to everybody. Gregory, though, is just never, he never deals with the issue directly. Sure. He never unpacks, like he never spends time speculating on that issue. And so most of the claims, as I understand it being made about him there are based off of

sort of inferences from things he does say. Okay. But I don't think it's a slam dunk case because he never goes there explicitly. He never has a treatise dedicated to that. What we have going for us is just our own knowledge, because Gregory, of course, tells us that he's a fan of origins. Okay. Yeah. But that's, of course, he's my boy.

So I'm inclined to think that, like, in context, he probably wasn't a full-blown originian. But even, again, to be fair, in his day, that wouldn't have been nearly a. us as it became 100 years later. So that's what I would say about that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I like that answer.

Yeah. So our listeners can't see, but Father Adam, you've brought a stack of books. Yeah, a massive stack. I'm very smart. It's almost up to the ceiling. So what are sort of like three to five essentials for St. Gregory if you may really get to know St. Gregory? Well, the two most important probably is this popular protristics series that

from St. Vladimir Press. St. Vlad's Press, yeah. They have his five theological orations in a single volume called On God and Christ. That particular volume also includes two letters to a presbyter named Clodonius

in the first of which Gregory anticipates later Christological questions that'll come up at Ephesus. This is 50 years later. So the famous axiom of Gregory is that whatever is not assumed is not healed.

He's arguing against the pollinarians, Jesus doesn't have a rational soul, rational human soul, that that's just supplanted by the Logos in the incarnation. And Gregory disputes that and says, he has to have a human mind because whatever he doesn't assume in the incarnation, he hears this being God the sun. Whatever is not assumed in the incarnation is not healed by a contact with the divine nature. And so if he's coming into the world to redeem human nature, then he has to have a full human nature. Yeah. And so Gregory, he know him primarily for his Transitarian theology, but he also contributes to Christology later. So this volume from St.

Flaads includes the five orations and the two letters to Clodonius, where he wades into Christology a little bit. Okay. St. Flads also has a volume called the festal orations of St. Gregory of Nazanzus, where you have some of his very famous festal homilies on epiphany, Pentecost,

a couple of pascal homilies. And they've also got a volume called On God and Man, where you can read some of his theological poetry. Okay. So those are cheap. They're cheap paperbacks, relatively accessible, modern translation, easy to read. And then if you're interested in sort of Gregory's life, you can read it from Gregory's own mouth if you want, his own pen. Caroline White has an academic volume. It's his autobiographical poems. But then Anthony McGuckin, who's an Orthodox priest and patristic scholar, has the definitive biography of Gregor. I'm holding it right here. Just called St. Gregor of Nazianzis. Okay. And you can see it's... It's pretty thick.

It's thick. And so this is just a great... It's called an intellectual biography. So it definitely focuses on the development of his thought. Okay. But it takes you through all of his life, including a chronology here of what's going on with him, what's going on in the larger church, what's going on in the Roman Empire. So you kind of map him to the things that are going on.

Okay. And it's just a great sort of standard academic resource in terms of just his biography. Okay. Yeah. So if you want to get into St. Gregory, there you go, there's good... Lots of options. Yeah. So St. Gregory is your boy.

He's my boy. This is the language that you used to talk about. So the rest of the time, I just want to sort of get a, I don't know, a little more personal. Like, what drew you to St. Gregory? Like, there are, you know, a plethora of glorious saints who are, you know, reposing in the Lord now. But what sort of initially drew you to St. Gregory? I was initially drawn to St. Gregory because of his Trinitarian theology, and I was interested, you know, you raised this point earlier, about the differences between East and West. And Gregory, along with Athanasius, is often sort of seen as a springboard for what becomes a distinctively Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox theology of the Trinity. He's often pitted against in that sense, Augustine and the West. And I was just curious to chase that down. I wanted to learn more about the development of our differences about the doctrine of the Trinity. having read deeply in the father's on the issue,

this is a hot take, I suppose, but I think the differences are overplayed. And even someone like Gregory are trying to look for evidence of single or double procession in him, he's not... He's not talking about that question. And so it's just not coming up.

And so it's difficult to cite him as proof that the Western take is the innovative one. Though, to be fair, when he talks about the spirit proceeding, he talks about the spirit proceeding only from the father. But again, he's quoting John, and that's what John says. he's not interested in the nature of that procession. He's primarily interested in distinguishing the Spirit's origins from the sons.

So origins, of course, in a timeless eternal way. Just so we're all clear that we're nice seeing Trinitarian Christians here. So I was initially drawn to him because of his Trinitarian theology, and I was interested in just tracing down the red crumbs of that particular debate. and then I discovered his, just in the course of writing papers on him and getting the weeds of him, his theological poetry kept coming up,

his autobiographical poetry kept coming up. And so I was like, well, I've got to read this because it's just so important for understanding him. I ended up writing my master's thesis on him. And I started reading his autobiographical poetry. And because he's so honest, there's just like the rawness of his humanity is just so apparent. Sometimes with saints,

because we don't hear much about their lives other than what people after them tell us. You get this kind of gloss that ironically dehumanizes them a little bit. Like they just become these sort of supermen that like never seem to ever sin or whatever. And it's like, but because Gregory and Augustine's the same way. Yeah, yeah. Because he tells us about his own life, he gives us all the gory details. in ways that I said sometimes are surprisingly he would admit what he admits.

Yeah. And what I appreciate about that is just I can relate to this guy. Like, I'm a human, like, so often saints feel a little aloof to us. Like, well, I'll never be that guy. Yeah. And I feel like that does them a disservice because, and Gregory would actually be the first to admit this. What their lives ultimately point to is the work of the Savior in their lives, right?

They're icons of Jesus more than anything else. Yeah. And that's what they want their lives to model, right? And so if we see in Gregory a sinner who's redeemed by grace, who admits that he's redeemed by grace, he's got a number of wonderful poems on Providence, some of which include, not surprisingly, images of, you know, being in a storm-toss sea and being brought to Save Harbor, because that's how he came into contact with Divine Providence for the first time personally, that he's just a human that's saved by the mercies of Jesus. Yeah. And so that's number one. I was just really impressed by that. I feel like I can,

if God can use him to mighty purpose, maybe he can use me. The other thing that emerges from Gregory's life for me is just kind of how melodramatic he is. You know, like he's dismissed in the imperial capital for being kind of gullible,

being easily sort of outmaneuver politically as a country bumpkin. And so he basically fails because he lacks earthly cred. you know, and even in the church, in the Imperial City, you need that to get ahead, which is hard to admit, but let's just, you know, read Churchistrius soberly here. That's just the way it was. Gregory, for all of his brilliance, for all of his lasting impact, by the power of the spirit, of course, we're still reading him today. At the time, he was looked down upon for being, again, it's got country bumpkin who couldn't hack it. Nobody doubted the quality of his rhetoric. I mean, everybody just recognized. He was a great preacher. Yeah.

But there's more to being the bishop of the imperial city than your ability to preach, right? And, you know, John Chrysostromes runs into similar problems later. Yeah. And so, and he was just melodramatic about it. He was just kind of elitist about it and melodramatic about it and kind of dramatic. And I have a flare for the dramatic. I mean, you and I've had many conversations, Domit, you know. I've listened to a lot of your homilies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My ranting in my office, yeah. So I just feel like, wow, if a melodramatic person can become a saint, then maybe there's for me. And the third thing that really strikes me about Gregory is that he was just so reluctant. At several points during his life, I've only shared a couple of those stories, but there's many. He resists the Lord's call on his life. And that call is often coming to him through powerful friends. His father, Basil of Cessarria, the patriarchs of Alexandria that basically send him to Constantinople. In every case, he's trying to be a hermit. And they pull him out of

of his own isolation and force him because of his powers of preaching into pulpits, into the limelight. And Gregory doesn't like it. Okay.

And so it's remarkable to me, particularly in a context here like Hillsdale, where we're just so committed to sort of industriousness, productivity, ambition, for the sake of the good, the truth, and beautiful,

hopefully, of course, but nevertheless, ambition. And to see someone like Gregory who had all the chops of somebody who really could be great in terms of his intellect, his rhetorical polish, the quality of education, his aristocratic connections, albeit their parochial,

but nevertheless still aristocratic. He didn't want it. He wasn't pursuing it. He was trying to just live a life of quiet prayer, and God just kept thrusting him into the limelight. And so much of his dramatic meltdowns in his life, life or because of that, right? Which is why he feels the need to write a poem defending himself. It's not just the one instance of Constantinople. It's several instances.

And when you read, again, it's the same thing kind of circling back to my first point. He's a human being. Yeah. You can resonate with that. And here we are talking about him. 1500 years later, if you spend any time studying the doctrine of the Trinity at all, you're going to come across him. His sermons are still being preached in Orthodox churches to this day. There's just no doubt. that in God's providence, Gregory was great. And he made Gregory's name great. But Gregory didn't want that. He didn't pursue it.

He resisted it. And I feel a lot of that reluctance in me, a lot of that fear in me. And I just, I personally identify with him. Yeah. And it's just, again, it gives me comfort that like, well, if God can use this guy. I'm nowhere near as brilliant as Gregory. Don't get me wrong. But if he can use Gregory, maybe he could use me.

Yeah. Maybe I can just trust, as Gregory did in the turns of the rudder of divine providence, that God will get me to a safe harbor. Yes, he got Gregory to one. And that means that he's a saint, and I revere him and I honor him, but I also identify with him. And I feel like there's, he gives me hope that God could work with me. So that's why he's my boy. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of Cloud of Witnesses.

Tune back in next time for our third and final installment. and our discussion with Father Adam about St. Gregory Nazianzus. See you guys next time. It must not.