WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Flyover Features: Can Ivy League Students Read?

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Emma and Sophia discuss a viral Atlantic article about students at prestigious institutions struggling to read books.

Hello, Hillsdale. You're listening to Flyover Features on Radio Free Hillsdale, 101.7 FM. I'm Sophia Mant speaking with Emma Verini. And in this episode, we're going to talk about a popular Atlantic article that came out recently titled The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books. So we're going to talk about Ivy League students who literally can't read. Yeah, what did you think? about this one. It was pretty bleak because it made me feel that things are even worse when it comes to reading long books or classics than I thought, as in I would have assumed that people at the Ivy Leagues were still reading classics, and this article made it apparent that that was no longer the case. So what did you think about it, Emma? I don't know, I didn't read it. I see. Okay,

That explains everything. Anyway, yeah, there's a section where the student says that at a public high school, she had never been required to read an entire book. So she's like never read a whole book and she's at like an Ivy League school. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, I think that that's definitely scary, at least in my experience in public school. We have been assigned books, but not until I got. to an AP class, did we actually read multiple books in their entirety throughout the semester?

And even in that case, we only read, I think, like three or four books. So, yeah, I definitely think that this is true for most students, but also reading is the sort of thing you have to do in your free time too. So you can't just entirely blame the public school system and say, oh, this is the fault of the people who are educating me. No, a lot of people just choose not to read books anymore. Yeah, and I think it says something culturally in a negative way if, again, elite students who should be the demographic that's reading complex literature is not anymore.

I mean, I have to be honest, like, I don't want to get overly conspiratorial, but to get into some of the Ivy Leagues, just based on what they say for academics, Like the stats are pretty insane. But then if most of the people in them can't read, like it makes you wonder if most of the people there are just trust fund kids. Yeah, that's what I have trouble wrapping my mind around. Because the acceptance rates to these schools have been going down consistently to lower and lower numbers.

I think at this point Harvard's like 4% acceptance rate. So how their acceptance rate keeps going down and the quality of the students also keeps going down just doesn't make much sense. Yeah. And I mean, to my knowledge, they haven't changed the way the ACT or the SAT has been taken. So I am honestly wondering if the majority of students are getting there because of rich parental connections mixed in with like a minority because most of the professors in this article said they have. they still have some students who can read and write well, just they're in their minority, mixed with just like a minority, I guess,

of actually high achieving students with, you know, insane academic backgrounds who were able to get in. I mean, there are a lot of things that could contribute to the fact that these schools are becoming, at least seemingly more selective. There are probably a lot more people applying, and I didn't look into this. This is just conjecture.

Yeah, and I mean, I'm also wondering, you know, the students are perhaps still quite smart just in different areas, like maybe they're very good at math and science or practical job stuff and not as much in the liberal arts due to the extreme emphasizing of STEM and school, which I feel mixed about because, for example, so I'm a more liberal arts-oriented student, even though I'm a sociology major, which isn't like entirely liberal arts. And I remember, you know, I was looking at scholarships, local scholarships,

at my Towns Community Foundation, and they had tons for STEM. They had zero for liberal arts. Yeah, that's the thing. The other thing that is the problem is the over-emphasis on STEM, which is great. I know, at least from what I've seen, there are a lot of people who were homeschooled

or had a more liberal arts background in terms of education and have no idea how to do math, which is sad. And they don't know anything. about it, but there needs to be a balance, I would say. Well, I think that we've gone too far the other way at this point, because like I said, if there's 50 scholarships for STEM and literally zero for liberal arts as in English or history, that's too far the other way around. I mean, the students that truly value those things that are going to take them anyway, especially

because I think the stereotype of liberal arts students not caring as much about a standard job is kind of true as someone who leans that way. But, I mean, you know, you should be able to do math. You should also be able to read a dang book. Yeah, that's true. There's a part in the article that kind of relates to this. Students are just spending more time focusing on their job opportunities and internship opportunities than they are spending their free time reading books or doing their reading for class,

which I would say is actually kind of sad because literature and the liberal arts in general, or something you have to invest in as a culture. You can't just say, oh, you know, this isn't good for the economy or this isn't efficient. This isn't creating good worker bees, so therefore we can't pour into this, you know. I hate it. I'm not a part of that system. I mean, you know, jobs matter, but my main focus is learning right now, which I don't know. Maybe I'll be unemployed or living with five people in an apartment after graduation, but I don't.

I don't think so. No, I don't think I will either, to be honest. No. I mean, yeah. But. I actually don't think so, but, you know, I will admit that I value education and learning things more than I think about jobs and internships. But that's probably a good thing in some ways. What do you think about these professors who are basically saying, okay, yeah, we're not going to assign crime and punishment anymore because the kids just aren't going to read it.

or we're not going to assign the Iliad anymore because kids just aren't going to read it. I mean, I hate to say it, but from a pragmatic perspective, if it's true that the kids are going to read it, I understand. Or if you want to at least get people to try and read something, assigning, you know, Melville shorter books. But it's, I hate how they say, we have to change with the times. Like, reject Oluyl's technique, which is defined as, like, you know, means without a clear end and just valuing pure efficiency for a given thing. I hate that mindset so much.

I mean, I don't think, I think that classical books have tell of things that are enduring, and so we should not shift it with the modern world. And I don't think we should adjust to the modern world, because I also don't think that the increase of social media and modernity is a good thing. therefore I don't entirely support it. Yeah, and by the way, what Sophie and I were referring to there was how a lot of these professors in this article say that they don't assign full text anymore. So for example, with Melville, one professor used to assign Moby Dick, which is kind of a long

book. And then this professor began to assign Melville's shorter stories instead of Moby Dick. And another professor at UC Berkeley said she used to assign the whole Iliad, and now she only assigns sections of it. So, yes, that is sort of the background you need on that. So one thing that surprises me is that I was dual enrolled, which is to say I went to both high school and community college. I took a lot of community college courses online. and it makes me feel like I got a better education than I thought for community college because I actually in one semester for Western Heritage, so not even an English course,

read Machiavelli's The Prince, like the trial and death of Socrates, the Song of Rawland, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and, oh, Oedipus the King. Wow. Actually, I think one of those was like the second semester, but I actually had like four classical Western texts in one semester. And this was community college. And I guess it's more reading than a lot of people do at the ivies of classical texts. So what can I say? Yeah, that's pretty good. Iowa farm kids are becoming educated. That is actually such a good point because with the way education is changing, it seems like a lot of people who are, aren't going to college are actually really well educated. Like, for example, I'm not sure about the educational background of all these people, but I went to a Bible study in rural Midwest, and it was a women's Bible study.

And the age range of the women was my age, like, young adults all the way to, like, older women. And a good amount of those women, not only did they know the Bible really well, but they also could read the Greek, which was insane. Because that's not the stereotype that exists about people in the Midwest. It's not that they're really educated, but I think that's starting to become less true. Yeah, well, that's my neighbor, who's also my pastor, he studied Greek for years and his, his, brother knows all these crazy languages. And all fairness, they did go to college, but they didn't go to like the Ivy League. They went to smaller Wesleyan universities. But yeah, I mean, I do think part of it's culturally the state of Iowa for those who don't know. There's been a lot of controversy recently

and it's hard to know what's true from both the left and right about the public schools. But at least until recently, like the public school system in Iowa is definitely better than the national average, which is a way of saying that if you are in a public school system in Iowa, you're probably still going to have basic reading and like math abilities on average, which is not unfortunately the case with other districts and other states. So it's actually a better educated state than the average. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So I think this article actually just goes to show that a lot of the stereotypes that exist about certain people just aren't true.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I still can't believe that, I mean, they did say it's a smaller and smaller amount of people that are actually reading, which I can believe. But it's weird because there's a professor who asked his first years about their favorite books, and they used to cite books like Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre,

but he said almost half of them cite young adult books, like Rick Ryard's, whatever, Percy Jackson series. and I mean, that's actually, honestly, I do like that series, but it's kind of like, wow, the downgrade of people's artistic sensibilities. I really can't stand Percy Jackson. I did not like it at all. I actually, I put Boo next to that paragraph because I couldn't even read Percy Jackson. It was not my favorite.

Not to say it's a bad book, but it just wasn't very captivating. And to see that a bunch of elite students supposedly are saying their favorite book is Percy Jackson, I kind of have to judge them. That's not even close to one of the best books that's out there. I really liked the series when I read it. However, I was literally 11, so, you know, I'm not sure what I'm going to be. We're not saying that to be mean. Like it's not even young adult.

It's not young adult. It's targeted for kids. It's younger than young adults. Yeah, it's a children's book. Yeah, it's a children's book. And I also love how the one dissenter, which in all fairness, I think this is, at least he can defend his school because I think this is still accurate. And like it has a reputation, University of Chicago of where fun goes to die.

Oh, yeah. But he said, University of Chicago is like the last bastion of people who do read things. And I mean, I believe that. You can be pompous, especially because I think people still do read things at Hillsdale, but for the most part, he's right, I think. Like, most colleges other than St. John's and Annapolis and Santa Fe and, like, Hillsdale and University of Chicago, like a handful of liberal arts colleges, yeah, people don't actually read long texts.

So he's, he's, what he's saying is bright, which is sad. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, the other thing that this whole issue sort of raises is, what else are you not reading? If you're not reading long texts, do you have the stamina to sit and read form that you have to sign or a document and you're signing your name to it and you're legally bound to it? Do you read that stuff or do you skip over that as well? Or have you gotten so used to skipping the reading that you're not even paying attention to what you're putting your name on? I mean, they probably don't because also I was watching a video, and I'm making fun of Columbia students because I seriously considered going there and because I don't like how they've been treating certain students such as Jewish students recently. As in they're not getting punished for stuff that's technically illegal because they're literally just harassing just students.

But anyway, I get the impression they don't because I was watching a video and these students were like, you can't be recording me! and it's like it's legal to record people. So I don't think they understand the law very well. But I mean, it also makes you wonder, well, why are all these college students so darn liberal? And then you realize, well, they probably haven't read anything resembling conservative thought at a high level. That's true.

Their conception of conservatives is probably like toothless farmer in overall standing by one way. rode in countryside with a pitchfork. Yeah, the one time they took the long drive out to get to their New York college from their small liberal Virginia community. Oh, you darn Yankees. Yeah. I mean, what's funny is technically we're Yankees.

We're both Yankees to everyone who's from the South, but we're not as Yankee as people that literally live in New York City. I am indeed a Yankee. You're like a true Yankee. I'm Iowa, so I'm a Yankee, but I'm not. less strongly a Yankee. Yeah. But, I mean, yeah, they're even getting their liberal ideas from, I don't think they're getting

their liberal ideas from even actually reading Marx. They're just getting it from like a young adult's description of what it means to be gay, described with just anger and stuff. And like, I don't think I'm even joking when I say that. Yeah, so true. Yeah. By the way, you've been listening to Flyover features. on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm Emma Verini and I'm here with Sophia Mant.

Okay, so we were talking about how a lot of people nowadays, especially those who have an elite education, have a certain perception of people who don't have the same education as them or who are conservative. So yeah. Well, that's like technically, and I'm not saying this to sound offensive. Like this is accurate to what they believe. I don't, but I went to what would be considered a fundamentalist Christian K through 12 school as in, you know, the Bible was believed as fully literal and stuff like that. And people can be like, oh, those hicks. But we had, we were the best school in the district, in the county. Like, we had the highest average ACT scores. There's like two professors there who have PhDs. And so that's what I find funny. Like, I don't know if, I don't know if

a lot of people can comprehend that there's people who have very, very traditional beliefs, but from an educated perspective, from, like, their liberal educated perspective are still quite educated, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, it's almost like a lot of people don't want to have to acknowledge that there are people who are really intelligent, who also disagree with them a lot. Yeah. Like, think back to colonial America, you know, your average farmer in colonial America was reading Latin texts and Greek texts and they read a bunch of philosophy and they would absolutely maug these people intellectually. They'd probably mug us.

Yeah, because I barely know Koine Greek and I can pretty much only read sections of the New Testament. I mean, like, I'm not, I definitely don't know Latin and I'm not. fluid in Greek. And we're like in the minority of people studying it. Yeah, exactly. So all that to say, it's really easy to judge certain demographics of people or even look back in history and say, oh, those people were dumb. But we're just so ignorant.

I think this article just goes to show how ignorant so many people are about this stuff. I do hate to say it. And I hope this isn't too mean. But I still am questioning the whole. whole Ivy League stats and stuff because I've seen videos online of students at Ivy leagues and like even from a like secular liberal perspective they don't seem that eloquent or smart given that they are at a university that's supposed to be so selective. Have you like that's what I find hard to reconcile with like those YouTube um interviews

where they just go up to random people at Ivy League. Yeah. I mean maybe that's maybe that's selectively edited because when I was Looking at applying. I would say so. Yeah, because I was looking at applying to Columbia and there was like Zoom meeting and students who had asked questions. Like they were extremely diverse backgrounds from everywhere and they sounded very intelligent. But still, the fact that there's even a handful of students that are actually like that at Ivy League's makes you wonder how they got in. Yeah, I wonder that as well.

But I definitely think there are a lot of reasons that those videos with interviews of Ivy League students come off that way. A lot of these kids are just caught off guard, you know. And I think they definitely do try to find the dumb ones. And they succeed. There are a couple of dumb ones lurking around. And it's like, how did you get through admissions? Yeah. But yeah.

I mean, I think some of them are worse than others. I don't know. I feel like MIT, it's, yeah, pretty smart people. You Chicago seems pretty smart people. But like some of the students at Columbia and Harvard, it's like, how did you get in here? But in all fairness, we know that there's some cases of people who got in there unethically through like rich parental connections or just being like inactivist literally maybe or successfully but yeah i was i'm probably being too mean there's a lot of really smart people there

no i definitely agree there are a bunch of really really smart people but i think there's even a part in this article itself where the professor one of the professors says like it's pretty much an exception to be able to find a student who enjoys reading and writes really well in one of their English classes. I can't exactly find it. That's Anthony Grafton, a Princeton historian, said that, you know, there are always students who read insightfully and easily and write beautifully, but they are now more exceptions.

So now most students don't read insightfully or easily the struggle to read, and they don't write very well. Wow. Yeah, that's at Princeton. Wow. That's bad. Interesting. Okay.

Well, this was a very pessimistic show. today, but we're going to have to wrap up. You've been listening to Flyover Features on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm Emmavoreen, and I'm here with Sophia Matt. Bye.