WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Having a Republic Maybe | Boys Only #35

Episode Date: April 18, 2026

Nate and Storm chat with Dr. Jason Gehrke about learning to love learning, how Christianity invites historical study, and just asking the girl out. 

This week on Boys Only, I'm Storm Drexler. I'm Nate Gallagher. And this is your favorite podcast here on WRFH 101.107 FM. Not really. Technically we're not on there. We're not actually on the radio. Hills the radio for another episode of... See, it's like the Invincible logo goes up.

Oh. We don't actually say the name of the show. Yeah. Yeah. We have it's Boys Only. Very special guest on this week. Who is it, Nate? It's finally for...

It's been a little tantalizing almost because we were going to have them on two weeks ago. And then last week again, but now it's finally here. It's Dr. Gerke. Hey, welcome to the show, sir. Hey, thanks so much for having me. And yeah, sorry to keep you waiting, but appreciate your flexibility. Who are you? How do the people of campus know you?

We should have probably briefed you on that. We always open with like, what do you do around here? How do people know who you are? Yeah. I see. Well, you kind of know the answer to that question. We do. Everybody else.

Yeah, so I am an assistant professor of history here at Hillsdale College. I teach, of course, the full range of courses in the Corps. but particularly in the upper level, I teach history of Rome, Roman military history, ancient Christianity. And of course, we have called Foundations of Military History and Strategy. So I'm a graduate of the college back in 2007. And yeah, never thought I'd have the great honor and gift to come back here. And it is a joy every day.

Wow. He was graduating when I was four years old. Yeah, that's crazy. And now we're doing a podcast with him. Now we're doing a podcast with him. So, like, how did you, what was your life like here and, like, how did you get into teaching graduate school? Like, what is, because we, I think everyone knows who you are as the son of mystique, almost, because people talk about you as like, oh, hardly. He is crushingly.

I do that. I know everyone. Everyone is like, please. Everyone's like, take his classes. Take, take them. Just do it. Just take it. It's hard, and you're going to get a C, but just do it.

You need to do it for your soul. Hold on. Hold on. I'll get a smart. I don't think I'm really that much harder or greater than anybody else in the college. just for the record. Maybe. You have to do the reading, but...

Well, I don't like that. Well, I didn't do that. Well, maybe there lies the issue. I promise I'm kidding. Yeah. Well, you know, I got into grad school. I think the way a lot of Hillsdale grads do is, I never would have thought it, actually,

when I came to college. But along the way, you learn to love to learn, and you learn about great ideas, and you realize that there's always more there. So by the time I graduated, I had sort of these two kinds of things, on the one hand, military service on my mind, but then also continuing to study. And I had really kind of studied or discovered history in the course of thinking about, on the one hand, the history of the church. And then on the other hand, the history of the church and politics and religion and politics. It was something that was in the air in that era back, you know, 2006 and 7.

it was still the GWAT era there was still a lot of thinking about religion and political and military life yeah so I kind of went off doing both things at the same time and never looked back which one did you did you do first did you graduate and then immediately go into the army did you do like an like how did you get into the army

how did you end up there yeah well I a bit of both so I graduated and first went and did a master degree. And after the master's degree, I found myself in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where where actually-Colter Springs, Georgia. That's right. Well, I mean, it is. Colorado Springs, yeah. I was teaching there at a classical charter school where the superintendent was a military officer, actually Colin Mullaney, who now works here in the Barney Charter School Initiative.

One of the great charter school superintendent leaders, you should have them on, actually. Um, right that down as far. Yeah. Yes, I'm writing things down. And, uh, he was, uh, an officer in the reserve and it was the right moment in time. And, uh, yeah, so I joined in 2010, uh, as an officer in the reserve and off I went. Uh, I actually had applied to graduate school the same. Actually, it was the, I finished up the applications the weekend before I shipped off to basic training. And I got accepted at the end of the year that I had been in initial entry training. Um, yeah, that was all kind of a whirlwind, but so they've always been kind of, kind of, to, together at the same time. That's incredible. I think we talked with the shooting sports coach André Neer a few weeks ago about the importance of, and it was more of a joking context about we wanted a canon for our senior gift because he spent it much more eloquently than I can. But it's the idea that when you're reading the text of the revolution, you have to understand

that these are guys who, most of them, and this can apply for most of history, most of these men have seen combat or experience these like horrible war events and we're in a bit of a bubble like we like to imagine ourselves as these high-minded smart people which we are in some ways but there's a lack of rubber meeting the road sometimes and like that aspect of thought is under explored what do you think you have to say to that? I guess I'd say it depends. There's, you know, anything that promotes humility is wise. So if you're being encouraged to think deeply about the experience of the writers,

I presume when you say the revolution, you mean the American revolution? Yes, I do. Sorry, I just glaze over that. Me being a Roman guy, obviously the Roman Revolution means the Roman Revolution, but that's okay. but yeah you know if you're if you're thinking about um 18th century american documents anything that you can do that allows you to more deeply understand the context and the life of the people writing at that time that's that's a good thing um on the other hand the the ability to study uh has always required peace it's always required a bit of separation from the world

it's always required a bit of solitude. Think about the medieval monastery, for example. Or even ask yourself why Hillsdale is on a hill at the end of a train track, you know. So there's a good in both things. I guess I'd say the wisdom is to attempt to hold them together. And, you know, if Andre's insight can make you more grateful for this very special time in your life, this gift of leisure, then it's very wise.

It's a great answer. That is a phenomenal answer. I feel like we're going to be getting a lot of these throughout the episode of these good kinds of answers. We have many, many questions. People were like ecstatic when they heard that you were coming on because... So when we have Joey Buff on,

you guys are radio silent. Yeah, we have Joey Buff and Brendan Burner. We have Dr. Gurkine's 45 questions. Flood in. I'll do my best. There's that mystique. Yes. So, we'll start with Liam.

I just said, actually, I've listened to your other episode, so I know you flatter all the guests. I do. Well, you know, flattery is very important. Most of our guests don't listen to the other episode, so they're not ready for a... Yeah, we have... Most of them do not listen. Hey, I think you guys are awesome, man. I was so impressed when I heard about the podcast.

I was like, wow, I can't believe... But I got to admit, I'm kind of stupid. So I thought that you guys were in your dorm rooms. Like, I was driving, actually was driving along, and I forgot how I found it the first time. But, oh, Luke Waters, that's how. He told me he was going to be recording. And I thought he told me he was at Simpson. So, anyway, I listed this podcast.

You guys are all talking about college life and stuff. And I thought, man, those guys are just amazing. Well, now I see the real. Well, now you're all right here in the studio. That's why it sounds like half decent. If it was in Simpson, it would be like people screaming in the background, like, ah, sound equipment, machine running, like just awful. What can I say?

I should have figured. I should have figured it. I should have figured it. Because Hillsville College Radio is awesome. There we go. Now, actually, before we get into the question is, you went here. Mm-hmm. What dorm did you live in?

I was only on campus for one semester, but... What? How did that happen? How's that possible? that or he wanted to get rid of me. But, yeah, so I was in Galloway for one semester in the spring of 2004, and then I moved off campus. Wait, this... Oh, you were a transfer? That's right. Oh, my gosh. That's right. He's a tranny. Okay. My roommate is, my roommate's a transfer. Okay. And he loves to say that.

Yeah, but that's more for not on the podcast. I don't know. You guys gave me this long list of like bureaucratic rules. Yeah, and then now here comes storm. We're about 10 minutes in, so essentially every rule is out the window now. That's fine. You do whatever, man. Well, I didn't expect this bottle of liquor right.

You got, right? Yeah, there's a huge bottle of liquor as well as a rocket launcher on the table currently. You can tell from the promotional picture. Sure. But there's a rocket launcher and liquor on the table. I'm just going to get into the dang questions. It's my job to throw you off. Yes. So Liam asks, and this is a bit of a loaded question,

when has Christianity been at its best? Because you study the beginnings of it. And what some people, particularly Catholics, as me and Liam are, would call like the good times, like the best times. At least I think so. That could be an erroneous interpretation of mine of what Liam is saying. Yeah. You call the best times the very beginning of Christianity, like right after Christ?

I don't know if I necessarily call it, but I think that's a fairly standard Catholic viewpoint. I mean, obviously Protestants wouldn't think that you guys weren't around. Yeah. We were. Oh, God. Put that little dig in there. I'd have to think about how to deal with the assumptions. So.

Yeah, that Christianity has a best. Well, hmm. see the word Christianity oh man here we go oh man you're getting met already here we go

I mean it depends on if you want an answer or not I do vaguely the Christianity's always been best it's best right now and tomorrow there's an answer but I'm not sure that would be getting at what he's what he really wants

so I think what he means is is there an era in history in which somehow the Christian experience or church or or theology or or practice sort of met the ideal. I think you can see though how hard it is to answer in any given moment, right? If you mean, is there is there a, was there a moment in the church when everyone was a perfect theological agreement? The answer is no. Literally literally no, not from the very beginning.

If you mean, was there a time when Christians were all moral, ideally moral, well, that would be an infinite number of individual moments, right? And if you mean, depending on what you think Christianity is, if you think that, for example, Christianity is not just a historical phenomenon, like let's just grant for a moment that the Christian faith means to, know your sin and in faith repent and thus receive forgiveness and knowledge of God and rest. Then, for example, it was perfect when the Blessed Virgin Mary pondered all those things in her heart. It was perfect when every child is baptized in faith. You see? It's perfect every time the forgiveness of sins is pronounced. So there's a lot of ways to take that question.

I guess I would say, on the one hand, no, I would encourage you not to have a kind of nostalgic historical idealized one moment. On the other hand, a lot of people, and I think I'm one of them, often look to the protristic era as a time that allows us to think simultaneously about Christianity within the context of the world that the apostles lived. and on the other hand, after some long development when many of the issues, challenges that would come to Christianity were being developed and even worked out to some extent. My own wheelhouse is something like the third century Latin West. I think the third century church in Africa under Cyprian in particular provides a lot of fruit for thinking about the good of the

church. But yeah, is there a best? Is there a single moment? That's pretty hard. I would, that's something it's, it struck me so much since I've been here. And really more so in the last like year that I've, the classes that I've taken, because I've been in a bit of a Roman track for the last few semesters. I've been doing a lot of Rome stuff. And all the best students do. Oh yeah. History majors is the best major, objectively. And other things. But I think for most of my life, I had a, and I, I think this is most people, especially in the modern day, is that I had a very shallow understanding of like what the Bible meant.

I was just like, Jesus was saying, be good to each other and stuff. Great, I can do that. And then I take a class on Roman Republic and now Roman Empire, which is the class I'm currently in with Dr. Gerke. And I don't even, you don't even realize it. Like just Philemon, we talked about on that one day, like one of the shortest books in the entire Bible. And it is so richly baked with references to Roman life, just everything.

Like what a Pharisee is even. Most people are like, yeah, they're the bad guys, basically. But it's like, what does that mean? What is Second Temple Judaism? Who are the Hasmeneans? How did we get here? And I think that that learning is so integral to the understanding of Christianity. And that it only increases, it only gets better now that I'm able to read Cyprian and lactantius and tertulian

and have that deeper light. And so I think he's asking that question because he's probably having a fairly similar experience to me where he's like, oh my goodness, it's so much more than I thought it could be. Yeah, you know, I think it's a fantastic insight. It's true. One of the things it reminds you actually is

Christianity intended, it was proclaimed as something that really happened, something that happened in history, right? And the gospels mark this when they say, in the days of Caesar Augustus, when Cyrenius was governor of Syria, right? Those are historical markers. And it means, on the one hand, the gospel is something that was proclaimed as having really happened in places and times that you can check, right, that you can know about. On the other hand, the farther way we get from that, the more historical work there is to have depth of vision and understanding. So, yeah, that's one of the joys of Christian. Christianity is it invites that kind of historical study because it does say ultimately in some sense God, the fullness of the God had dwelt in the body of Jesus in this time and place. And that puts history on the map as a mode of ultimately of knowing God. So other than just, I mean, naturally you're a Roman historian, so you would recommend people to

learn about that era. But do you think that for Christians in general, it's very, very important to learn about late Republican into probably up to about Constantine, like Rome? Because that sets such a picture. It depends on what we mean by the word very, very important. So if you mean, does a Christian need to know this in order to believe the gospel and know it rightly? Well, of course not. Maybe not, right? But if you mean, is Christian understanding deeply enriched? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's a fantastic and fruitful time. And, you know, it reminds you that thing C.S. Lewis said, right? That we don't have future books. Since we don't have future books, we have past books. And they both have the same value is that they allow you to compare your own understanding to something other than and before it. for a Christian in particular, yeah, I think that that early period in Christian history is, is, it allows you in particular to set the New Testament, to set the proclamation of the gospel into its time and see it more vividly all the time.

Do you see the recent modern era of Christianity as apart from all these historical eras in any sense? Or do you think that the challenges that Christians are facing today are similar or akin to the ones before? Well, I hate to say it depends again. No, you're going to see nuance in my question that I didn't even see and I appreciate that. Which part is the modern era? Do you mean like the last 50 years? In a sense, the American age. Sure.

The last 200 years. I know a little bit beyond. Yeah. As far as I can tell all of the problems of Christian history remain true on the map somewhere in the world. That's the sense I get at any time, right? So there's doctrinal problems. There's problems of church schism. That's a problem.

There are problems and therefore disunity. There are, there's problems of Christian persecution, of the denial of Christian practice around the world. There's the problem of Christianity becoming domesticated or instrumentalized by politics, becoming merely a tool or a vehicle rather than something that creates its own life. That's a problem depending on where you look. So a lot of the way I think we imagine those questions has a lot to do with where we imagine ourselves in the world in relation to the proclamation of the gospel. So yeah, the answer to something like that is usually yes.

Every answer, I'm just like, yeah. I wish I thought of that first. because you make it sound so obvious. We have time. So, yeah, we do. We got time. We have plenty more questions. So let me go, that was a very serious question.

Let's go for a slightly sillier, slightly more fun question. Also from Liam. Liam likes to do this. Liam likes to ask 45 questions. And they're usually all great. So I like to ask them. What era of history would you most like to live in? And I'm going to put a qualifier on that to help all of our answers.

You can't say right now. Why not? Because, I don't know. Because everyone's going to be like right now. It's the best with the medicine. It's arguably speaking, it is object. Are you saying that just because I said that last time we had this conversation on this podcast? Yes.

Yes. Shouldn't you tell me that I'm not allowed to say like the first century of the Roman Empire because then I can meet Jesus? No, because that sets up a whole bunch of things. First of all, you're in America. You're here. You're in that time. I mean, I guess you can pick where you want to be. So maybe you could get over there and see Jesus.

I mean, in what century would I most like to live in Michigan? Because that That is an That's awful Fine, fine I mean Somewhere between 1830 and now Yes

I mean I guess like That's like there's an objective You gotta be there to see Jesus Wait I got it I'm gonna take a little new on that Here we go 1844

In Spring Arbor Michigan If I have to live in Michigan In some earlier time I'll be part of the first class To matriculate at Michigan Central College There we go Wow Well okay that's a great answer

But I mean I think Given the constraints I think more I didn't where I wanted a more like a different answer than I'm going to go meet Jesus or I'm just going to live today anyway. Okay, wait. 12.10 Japan. Valid. Samurai age. If I were bigger, stronger, and more athletic and you could let me be a running back, then I wouldn't mind playing for Bo Schembeckler's Michigan Wolverines. There we go. Go blue. There you go.

Is that seriously your answer? The team, the team, the team. The team. I was expecting like, I'd love to go and see the forum and it's like glory. You told me I had to say I was in Michigan. No, I didn't. I didn't mean to qualify like that. Fine. Family story though.

So my grandmother hitchhiked from Arkansas in, I want to say 1941, maybe it was 42. She was Mrs. Old Family lore. She was about 16 and she hitchhiked with her younger brother Bud from. Somewhere around Little Rock to Dearborn Michigan, and she worked during World War II either on the line at King Seeley, which had been converted over to a detonator factory. She worked there during the day, and in the evening she volunteered at the University of Michigan Hospital. And so on my mother's side, our family is from Ann Arbor. I was born in Ipsilani. And so we've got old sort of family lore that goes back to Michigan. She actually worked and put my young, my, her younger brother, my uncle bud, through the, I don't think, engineering or something at the University of Michigan. And yeah, so we're world Michigan fans. In fact, yeah, you have to be.

Your grandma will disown you. So that's right. Okay, fine. You don't have to live in Michigan, but don't just go meet Jesus. Well, okay. That's like the, who's the best person it's ever lived? It's, duh. Jesus. Like, let's get, like, let's talk about. Let's talk about. Yeah. Right. In that case, I think I'd like to be one of the knights of the roundtable. I was going to say the same thing. I'm like, I'm checking if Arthur was reading. I hear Carmaricine nights. I'll take that. Or late 18th century Scotland might be really cool. Why there? Because Coleridge. Ooh, that's a good take.

Yeah, absolutely. Or, yeah, I mean, come on. It'll be pretty awesome to see the second century Roman Empire. like the peak for sure yeah because it was good then you know as edward given would say it was definitely really good everybody knew it yeah he loved it that's right that's right that's right being king canutes rat in new and fight dains oh sorry i did not i know i think you're like king canoe for a second i'm like what are you saying i think i think it's pronounced i thought it's not c n u t there's an e at the end oh really we're out of his wheelhouse yeah i yeah are we sounds good i think so danish warfare Anyway, I guess...

Next. Next. Next, me. Man, that was a real... Dave is Adolphus. There you go. Yeah, there we go. I'm not sure I want to live them, though, because I'd probably be in the Army and I'd probably be dead. Well, that's also 30 years wartime. Because I'd be a peasant. Yeah.

And you'd be on that, you'd be on his side of it. I would be on the emperor's side. You could pick up your smith's hammer and go hit some guys as they walked into your village. Long live the haps perks. Yeah, super happy. The emperor. That's right. I won't die for this random lord.

That always has to kind of side. more um blenham palace where's that blenem palace the ancestral home of Winston Churchill oh there we go so

you're gonna hang out that's right become Winston Churchill's if I can live anywhere yes that's right I will go I will I will I'll become Winston Churchill's best friend there we go and travel with him around doing doing uh research

for his biography of Marlborough that's awesome bro yeah that'd be pretty great like cigarette yeah well I mean not the origination John Duke of the name. I guess. What a smoker, that guy.

Well, that's the thing about history, right? There's just so many amazing times. And spectacular moments, experiences that if you kind of look and go, that would have been remarkable to witness. For me, as I'm like reading Tacitus, and maybe this is because I read more fiction books than like the serious, philosophical stuff, like I've tended to veer more that. way like I like to really see like I can see very clearly in my mind you read tacitist and thought

I'd really like to live in that time no well I mean I'm getting somewhere oh okay um I promise I'm getting somewhere with this I've totally lost it okay I'm back on it I've remembered it now so I as he always gives a 13 minute cut storm I don't know if you've ever read tacit's but every time he gives a description of what the person looks like and that usually to his temperament which is a whole like theory of that stuff. And so I want to see what these people look like. So his descriptions aren't good enough or they're like en-rateringly good. They're good, but to the point where it's like, I want a fact-check. Like I want to see in what I picturing in my head when I see Sulla. Does he describe them like deities almost, like stars shining in their eyes? No, no, no, no, no. They're more, they're, they are very

human descriptions. Okay. Like Sulla's is like golden red, no, like golden blonde hair or something. And like piercingly green eyes and like a really sharp nose. Like I want to see what this guy looks like. Like does he look powerful? Are the statues of Augustus faithful to what he actually looked like? Do you have an answer to that? How good are the statues? How accurate?

It depends on which one you're talking about. Prima. Prima. Prima. Early emperors and early Roman emperors. You know, there are, with Augustus in particular, it's pretty fun. If you look around, you'll see there's a number of different, portraits of him from different parts of the empire.

And on the one hand, they all overlap. On the other hand, there are differences. Creative liberties. One of the best ways is, if you look at ancient coins, right? And they really try to kind of faithfully produce the imperial portrait, in part because images of the emperor is the way you project the imperial presence. So, yeah. And you're right.

You know, Tacitus has this kind of old idea that you can tell the character of a person from their, from their manner, from their physical projections, from the way they're formed. So, yeah, he thinks he's often giving you insight. It's a bit in Cicero as well, but, you know, getting insight into the character of a person from the way they're described. That's right. I think you can actually With me and you, I think you can tell a lot If we're just walking along, you do not know us, you look at us, you know exactly that I'm going to make.

Calvin and Hobbs walking along. So I just thought of this and I'm, this is going to be extremely unnuanced for me to say, but I'm going to do it. So you said that putting your face on the money is a way to project your imperial power. Well, if you take out a dollar bill from your wallet, there's a guy's face on it.

Yes. So is that is, is that the same thing, but less maybe imperial and more Republican because we want to be a republic. Because we want it. More than they do clearly because they gave it up. Right. Well, what I said was first is that when Roman emperors put their coin with their face on the money and fashioned that image. And I should caveat that actually there's a kind of often fashioning or refashioning the portrait to project a political self-representation.

It's not always strictly accurate. nonetheless, they're projecting their imperial power. When we put George Washington on the money, are we becoming like a Roman Empire, do you mean? Or are we deifying him? Oh, no, but that's when we drew a picture of, we painted a picture of his apotheosis in the capital. Like, that's when we deafer.

I mean, there's absolutely an older, you know, kind of imagination of American saints, as it were. so you could be unless you don't and you just use it as money. That's why I prefer to use it. I prefer to spend my money and not look at it like, oh my gosh, George. You have studied the bills. I have studied. I frequently only get to hold dollar bills.

I very infrequently get to hold any domination larger than that. Because you're poor. That is the undercurrent of the joke that you just discovered their storm. Well, one more question about presidents, and this is my own question. Okay. Should we make one of them, Julius? Caesar? No. Why not? I am not a caesarian, by the way, just full transparency. I hate autocracy. Genuinely, I'd much prefer for everybody to kind of just, like, you would need to

personally know the person governing you. That is my, in my mind, the idyllic. Just to clarify my question before everyone comes at me, it's like, oh, you're a caesarian. In general, governmental, you need to personally know your governors? Do you like in general, all across the board? Ideally, Yes. Big Confederacy advocate over here. Innovative way. Isn't that what that is? Like localized?

You know your... Well, confederacy is always headed by someone. Wait, wait. Do you mean the Confederacy? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just the government type confederacy. Ah, I see. Important clarification.

You're clarifying a lot here. Well, I'll go back to it real quick and say, um, first of all, the... No, I think you should appoint someone to Caesar because you have a Constitution. And in order to do that, you would have to fundamentally change it, and that won't happen. And if it did happen, you'd be living in a revolution, and that will always involve violence, upheaval, disruption. So, no, I would not recommend attempting revolution.

That said, it's also because, speaking in a broad sense, the American constitutional order is the is the classic traditional answer to the problem of Caesarism, right? The founding fathers, you know, they had read their tacitus and their monoskew and they had examined the British Constitution and the history of the Rome Republic. And they recognize that, at least to date, the attempt to have a balance of powers with a bicameral legislature and a an energetic and yet limited executive power is the best idea they'd come up with to handle the problem of balancing those things that are good charisms in the rule of the one, the few, and the many. So no. Do I think that I'm, I mean, less abstractly, would you like to give

the whole, the rule of the whole world, or at least of the entire American responsibility, to the judgment of a single human? Obviously, the answer is not only no, but it's not possible. What you would have is the rule of a faction, right? You have one human and a group, and you would not, I mean, unless you'd like to live in a world that is relative to your desires entirely arbitrary, no, yeah, I'd say no. And actually, if you recall a good deal of the criticism around here, at least,

for, say, someone like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, You might consider that we've we've cycled through the idea of Caesarism more than once. So no, I recommend what you attempt to do is live in a republic. Be good Americans. Take responsibility for your families, for your life, for your civic life. Be serious about that. Do the really risky things sometimes of running for office and dealing with the struggle and frustration of politics.

Like, by the way, that great graduate of this college, Andrew Fink, who you also should have on. And, yeah, do that harder thing. thing. You know, Franklin knew it would be hard, right? That famous quote, uh, well, you have a republic if you can keep it. Uh, I say keep it. That's so based. Yes. How do you land it like that too? Just every time. I never understand that position. Like, you know what I want? You know what? What if I just have no power? Like at all? Like everything is decided for me. You sound infantile. Or you sound like the people in, like you sound like a wallie. child.

If you like genuinely want a monarch, you sound like a child. There's only one, there's only one, you're offending a lot of people. Let's make a distinction between, I would say, a monarch. Like, monarchy is a legitimate form of constitution, right? You can have, you can have a, in principle, you can have a monarchy that, um, that is faithful to the public good and also has limited powers, right? I mean, for example, the British Constitution is a constitutional monarchy. So, that's a bit of a technical point, I admit, but, you know.

I mean like a real one, though. Well, you mean an absolute monarch. Yeah. You've never had real monarchy. Like Sun King level. The Soviet saying. Like, just absolute. Yeah.

You sound like a baby. I don't want to make any of my decisions. I don't care. You do it. Hand it for me. It'll be great. You're weak. This is also a critique of communism.

I'll let you know. Yeah, I'm not a communist. That's right. I didn't know if that point needed to be... No, it's just encompassed. I am wearing bright red right now. Yeah, you look like a state farm or chick-fil-a employee or something like that. All right, man.

You're going to forgive me for sound like a college professor, but technically, not all monarchy is dictatorship and not all dictatorship is communism. But you're right that we should let reason and experience, like Washington said, be our guide. And you may find that you don't actually want to live in a dictatorship. You may find this. I may find this. Well, let's get that experience in there. Let's test this theory one more time, guys.

It's not enough. Was that just two questions? We could do that. All those were just me. We could totally do that. We've only done two questions. Next semester, I will offer a course in absolute dictatorship. Yes, here's how it will work.

It'll be a 16 credit course. 16 credits. And your requirement will be to read you'll have to read automobile manuals from the worst cars invented that's right and you'll have to take an exam on them of 1,000 questions at the end of every week

and at the end of it you can even know your grade I'll give you an F God save the fundees who sign up for that one that there are people in those camps people like ooh I'm gonna take that I don't think anybody would really do that 16 credits 16 credit class I mean

How many class are you in one? Three credits? 16. Under Kirkies. Give me a thousand questions a week. Alternatively, if you want to come to class and argue that it should be more reasonable, that the curriculum should be better, that the grade should be appointed by some system that's relatively well known to all of us, we could turn it into a class called having a republic,

maybe, but up to you. Maybe. Is that also 16 credits? It's up to you. It depends on what you vote on. Now, I already know the answer to this, but I think it's something that's worth putting out there. You often talk, mention that idea of do you want me to shape your intellect or cultivate it? Organize your intellect.

Sorry, organize it or cultivate it. Could you kind of explain the background of that and what that means? Because I think that that's something that really encapsulates a lot of what Hillsdale tries to do. Sure. And I think it would be a good message to have. out on the airwaves? Sure, yeah. Well, I taught at two other institutions before coming back to Hillsdale.

I won't say which ones. But I came through grad school really in that era between 2011 and 2017 when a lot happening in academic life was more and more organized by national politics in some of those heated times. and I found quite quickly that either the institution I was teaching at or even the expectations of the students was to come into a class and ask a question in order to confirm groupthink. So imagine a question like, well, the one I often remember is after the parkside shooting or school shooting in Florida. which was, of course, horrendous. The curriculum asked us to talk about gun control with the students, which was a little presentist, you know,

and we were asked to go in and ask things like, why are guns a problem? How does the American culture of guns create the opportunity for this? How could we correct guns, right? But a series of questions, all of which presuppose the answer to the question. And the thing about that is, that's not education. And so I walked into class that day and actually that whole semester, and I would ask this question. So would you like me to organize your intellect or cultivate it?

And by that I mean, I could either engage in that exercise where I presume to know the answer and I help you see why the answer I gave you is true. Or we can engage in a conversation where you're forced to see all the ways that you might address. a question and then left with the work of judgment. That latter thing, the purpose of that is that the students become equal, they become genuine interlocutors and friends with the professor, and in that sense, free relative to the question and to the faculty member. That's a harder thing.

But that thing, that's education in a republic. That's liberal education. one of the things you realize over time is just how much in discourse on all sides, frankly, if you're talking theology or the church or politics or sports, have you seen that phenomenon where you, when you go to watch a football game, you can choose to watch the channel where the announcer explains why your team might be going to win. Do you know what I'm talking about? You can watch the Go Blue channel.

Confirmation bias. Yeah, absolutely. And you kind of go, what does that do? saying about the culture, right? That's not what we do here. That's not what the education worthy of free people is for. So, yeah, that was for me a time when I really solidified what I thought I wanted to do as a professor. And that was carry on very much the tradition that I had received here as a student. And then it really felt grew and was cultivated by my doctoral advisor, Michelle Barnes as well. So yeah, that's kind of what that conversation,

it's about. It's such a beautiful thing and now I also want to enter the education sphere as challenging as that will be and I'm aware of it but that is that is something that has actually affected me a lot that idea because I came originally I was like I'll teach whatever grade like I don't care that much I get to talk about things that I enjoy but as I've grown more and been here specifically I've realized that truly what I want is the community like it is it is having a conversation with someone who cares right and someone who is old enough as in not like a child and cares enough to to really engage to want the truth who doesn't see me hopefully at least doesn't see me as a demagogue who will just tell them right what is correct

but will push back on me and force me to grow even as they're quote unquote superior yeah you know I think you really, you nailed it there when you talk about community. Dr. Arn often makes the point that college is friendship, but you can find that, you can find that Edmund Burke. Actually, you can go back and find it in Cicero. It's a question not just about about college, but really about the human, even the political good. The good of organizing our life together is precisely friendship, right? the natural sense, right? That, that we can come to know one another as people, to reason together, to speak together about those things which are joyful. And teaching is a life, whether you do it at the college level or actually in the secondary education level, where you get to do that

thing very often, where you can gather together with colleagues, with other faculty members, and have a life intentionally involved with the cultivation of that community in place where you live. It's a beautiful thing. And I think you're right to really think about teaching. Actually, I think a lot of Hillsdale grads are looking at that opportunity because it's so fulfilling. With that method in mind of your teaching, do you find, and this is a question I've been posing to a lot of professors lately, do you find that you oftentimes have to put crudely kind of dumb down a little bit for those conversations with students? Or how often do you find yourself, like, challenged, if at all, by the students and learning yourself?

Well, or is it most of the time, like, what are you're teaching Western Heritage? It's all, all Hillsdale students are brilliant. As Garrison Keeler would famously say, just a little above average. I jest, but... Just a little above average. That's right, no. I'll tell you that I really enjoy teaching at Hillsdale. You can't, you really can't deserve to teach here.

You can try to be equal to it, but it's really a gift. And the students really are all about that. So, you know, you try not to dumb things down. at the secondary level, or even in elementary school, you can still make a distinction between, say, dumbing down and speaking at greater levels of generality, right? Making speaking in a simplified form about things. Avoiding specificity to keep people on the same page.

Yeah, I mean, you can always go. So just last night I was at dinner with my son. He went and ran the 800. and on the way home, well, we stopped and had dinner, and he said, so why did the French Revolution happen? And what was the French Revolution? Right. You're like, all right, so do you want the four-hour conversation? Yeah, four-minute conversation.

I could teach you a three-credit course on this. That's right. Well, actually, I couldn't. That would have to be Dr. Vincenzy, but, or Dave Stewart. But nonetheless, you know, you can answer that question by saying, well, let me explain the Middle Ages. or something a little more simplified. And that's a skill in and of itself to say something, which is complex and true,

but also say it simply. Probably Dr. Arne is the, well, Dr. Arn or my father-in-law, Christian, are the two best people I've ever seen do that really well. But, yeah, so you often, at least in the conversation about it, you often try to, people ask a question and you'll be like, well, that's not quite, like, that's not quite what you're asking, or there's a lot, that's a loaded thing to, to ask, as a historian, there's always something that happened before. Right. And so,

like, eventually where, how far, how much nuance is almost too much nuance, like, how much can reasonably do before the questions like we've, we're just talking about something different now. Sure. Yeah, well, define something different, define talking, no, I'm kidding. Yeah, because like, for, I mean, just the French Revolution. Well, the French Revolution, you really do need to know something about the Middle Ages. But to know something about the Middle Ages, you kind of have to know something about, are they even the Middle Ages? Like, what, what is that? And then you have to go back to the fall of the empire. Yeah, we're in the middle of. Yeah, you have to do so much background work. Right. So eventually, when do you stop? And that's really important because college professors

need job security. So, yes. That's right. That's why it's a, it's a endless, endless well of potential distinctions. No, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, you think about it all the time. Every time you design a new course, there's a question, how much background do I need? Where do you start? What you try to do is start with enough clear things

that you enable the student to orient himself on the historical landscape and then be able to make judgments about where to move in greater depth as you walk along. So at one level, the answer is you can never have too much nuance. Because, ready, like, history is getting to know people. Think about it this way.

History is getting to know people. So how much nuance do your friendships require? Significant amount, right? Depends on the friendship, I would say. Or maybe. Or maybe, or dare I say your marriage? That's right. Or like the marriage between you two.

Yeah, we're essentially married these days. You know, we fight like cats and dogs. Yeah. Well, so, yeah, so at one level, you can always, you can always go another level deeper. You can always understand more vividly. And that's the fun of history. And on the other hand, sometimes you just need the class to end in 75 minutes rather than 90 minutes or 95 minutes. The greatest educational constraint of all the class period.

That's right. Trade of time. Every question is leaving me like, oh, I just sigh. Because I was like, it's good. What about something funny? All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Throw us somewhere else.

All right, I'll give, this is a funny. Everyone's going to think Hillsdale students are no funny, or at least that I'm not. So, so it ruined my reputation. This is from Ava. Which Ava? Jolly. Ah, okay. Hi, Ava.

Shout out to Ava Jolly. I don't know if she actually listens. She hasn't told me that she listens. Anyway, what funny slash shareable stories do you have from your time as a student at Hillsdale? Did you do anything crazy or bizarre? Or was Hillsdale really bookish and nerdy back then? And Simpson Dorn because of its greatness and how amazing it is. That's transformed.

culture back. Yes. I'd have to think about it for a while. You're building a giant snowman on the quad. I can fully say this. I put a, I helped put a gigantic, um,

Santa Claus blow up on top of the library freshman year. I helped do that. Come at me if you want, I guess. I don't know. I think the statute is over for that. There's seven guys with tasers running in the room. Yeah, but like, you know,

that's weird and that's funny and silly. Yeah, I mean, you know, I lived in a house on West Street, which has since been torn down, and we were always doing, you know, playing random breaks and stuff on each other in the house.

I'm not sure one, I mean, what I remember more is Ryan Maldon, like, turning our totally trash house into like an awesome, you know, party space to have semi-formal

parties in the house on, on Fridays. That was pretty great. Other than that, you know, the standard stuff, sneak into the dining hall and get trays,

which they took away and then, like, you know, slid down the hill. Like, pretty common. I'm not saying there's tunnels that you can find and there are any ground.

Don't go looking. If there were, I wouldn't tell you where they are. Don't go looking. You know, there's that. Kresgey's torn down so you can't climb on the roof of that. Chase your friends across. Kresge, yeah, the, the old classroom building that used to bisect the campus from east to west across where the current,

now it's an open quad. You know, what the heck? Oh, yeah. It was great. The ceiling tiles would fall out of it, too. Presby was awesome. Yeah, there was a single floor. You'd walk down it, and the hallway would connect to where the current library is now that was inside.

Oh. Oh. Yeah. And, you know, actually Dr. Wolfram was there. Dave Stewart had a office on the corner. So, yeah, I think Hillsdale kids have been pretty similar in that way for a long. We've always been nerdy, but also fun. Yeah.

When you mentioned the parties, I just thought, like, oh, pre-manning. That's right. Ancient pre-Manying days. We say, oh, Boondocks is going out. They say, Dr. Gurkies' house is going on. Well, back then, I'm not asking if you went to any of course, but was it a thing. It wasn't quite, like, manning. There wasn't a name, like, you know, Manning Street.

Okay. Because now if you say that, people like, oh. Oh, you know. Manning Street. Stita Gattano used to make parogies on the, in the Union House. Sorry. I mean, that is crazy. You said Stephen Gattano?

Yeah, he's brother of Dr. Gattano. Yeah, they actually are really smart in that family. If you were to meet Stephen. That was a joke, guys. Hi, Matt. Yeah, so. He guys completely missed. Random shot.

That's not a shot. By the other, that's not a shot. I actually love this guy's a joke. No, Dr. Cattano is great. So, well, you guys just looked at me like, oh. Yeah, I was like, oh, my God. You're not.

make any jokes about the Mac Catano. I'm sensing a little thing there. You guys got to have it out. Oh, no, Matt's fantastic. Have it out. That's right. They should have it out in the ring this Saturday for Simpsons. This is Saturday.

We're fighting. Dr. Gattano. Next year, next year. Next year. You'll have to fight Dr. Have you been to one of those events, Simpsons Macdown? Have you heard of this? I have not.

I have accidentally or strategically missed it every time. Strategically. No, not. Sensitive. Actually, I was invited this time. Actually, I was invited this time. time, but my kids, one of my kids has either a track meet or a spring concert or there's something going on a Saturday night, so I'll have to miss it.

I actually do have other children than you guys. Oh, I'm just saying. Dang it's unfortunate. We want to be the only ones who get all the attention. I just, I'm so surprised that this is happening with my life. Like if you told me sophomore year that I'd be talking to my Western Heritage professor. On your podcast. On a podcast that I ran with Storm.

dragsler. Hey, hey, hey, hey. This is completely ridiculous. Someday you're gonna be rich and famous. You're gonna be making like $600,000 in episode, just spinning crazy theories. Is that true? Yeah.

Is that gonna happen? I hope so. I'm gonna fully demagogue then. Don't forget this. Whatever it takes. That's right. Say anything. Are you professor in the future as well as history?

I think the word you're looking for is profit. Professor and profit. Yeah. I believe we have a word for that. No, no, I'm not. But I can see it though. You got a great thing going here. Oh.

Thank you. All right. I'm back to a extremely serious question. You just have to learn to be willing to say anything at all. No, I don't have me more. Actually, we don't want. I do have a dumb one. I will have to find it, though, because it is from forever ago because he asked this question a while ago.

It's actually from. It's actually from Caleb Floodstrom. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I had the little microphone button. Yeah, yeah. It's all right. I had to repeat that one.

Kipp says, oh, yeah. I hold on Gallagher Ask that question It's not a massively silly question But it is it's not It's not like the philosophy of life I'll wait to see if Caleb Floodstrom

Can pull off anything silly Is there a part of Roman government Or Roman constitution from any point during the Republic And Principate He gets points because he said principate not empire Because remember the Republic had an empire Everyone say it with me That you would like to see

implemented in modern American government To solve some of our current issues It's extremely extremely long question. Like a piece? Is there any aspect? Yeah, any aspect of Roman government that you would... The mixed constitution.

Elaborate for me and other people who may not know. Already? Well, we do, actually. Right, so any part of Roman government, I guess I would say, yeah, what I would like to see is the healthy functioning of the constitutional order as the founding documents describe the purposes and powers of that order. I would love to see a Senate, which is in fact the greatest deliberative body in history.

I would love to see a boisterous, energetic Congress, which in fact writes and makes the laws and is close to the people. I'd love to see an executive that is responsive to and answers the will of the people and executes that it has limited and distinctive constitutional powers in ways that are consistent with their interest. And all of that will be in both a political and some sense historical sense, the operating of legacies of the Roman Empire. And a right set, but mediated through the Middle Ages and the British Empire, of course. So do the thing it's supposed to do.

That's right. Yeah. That's right. and no more big bureaucracies. That is the death of just like everything. bureaucracy. Administration, really? Yeah, bureaucracy. That's what you got to know personally.

Back to my previous point. Look at that guys. I'm doing that thing where I'm saying a point forever ago and I'm tying it back. If it'll make you happy, I'll run you a tour of Capitol Hill. I'll let you shake the hand and have an hour long conversation with every politician. It'll take us a whole year. I don't want to do that. But then you'll be happy with our government. A lot of them seem really shallow. I don't want to do that. No comment about government. My bad.

Sorry, we're gonna, we're done. We just got canceled. Yeah, yeah, it's over. The U.S. government should us down, pull the plug. That's right. All right, well, we'll rotate back to another, kind of serious question. So on this show, we really like to,

we have men who we know and we love on. And we always love having professors and other people like that on because they give us dumb college kids an insight into life beyond like this. What we are right. now and because we're at least how I envision this platform is it's a way for us to reach out to young men yes both in fun come and laugh and also like let's let's talk about what it means to

be a man and be serious about it Liam's question is what is the biggest mistake that young men tend to make that all young men tend to make maybe not all but just like it's a it's a pattern you know you work with young men all the time We can have many. It's one that comes to mind. Yeah, we can talk about many. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things. And actually, surprise, I'm going to make a distinction.

There are several different kinds of young men and several different kinds of mistakes. So, but, you know, let's start big. I think the statistic is something like 90 plus percent of young men in the world today. and I think even a young Christian man in the world today struggle with pornography and being distracted and even addicted to that. Get over that. See your pastor,

talk to your parents, talk to someone, and get freedom from that particular thing that just sucks away your life and your time and your imagination. That's a huge mistake that young men are making, are pulled into. And it, most of all, I think it undermines their sense of,

of, well, so many things, actually. I mean, fundamentally what it does is it makes you believe that the body is the highest good

and is the supreme thing, when in fact, it's the soul and the beauty of the person as a sign of the beauty of the divine nature. So, yeah, that's a big one. A little less heavy,

maybe. Remember that, especially if you're coming out of college, remember that if you've done the work well, your education here has probably prepared you very well to see principle, to know some timeless and permanent things. It may or may not have prepared you very well to think about it what it looks like to enact the principles you know

in the muddy, daily life of historical change. So if there's a big mistake, I think, that I made early on as a college graduate, but that we also can continue to make. It's impatience. It's running out ahead and thinking because you understand one fundamental thing, that you therefore understand the way things will develop or what they will become. And that means also a third and kind of related mistake. There's that old proverb, even a fool is considered wise if he keeps his mouth shut.

Yeah, slow down. I mean, I, you know, good advice is usually confessing your sins, right? So saying too much, wait, step back, listen longer, and understand that there's a lot of people with a lot of experience. And the way they'll, the way they communicate that experience and the things they know may often not sound like your college professors or it may not come out in the way that you expect. but if you learn to hear the way people are communicating when it comes to you, you'll be wiser and you'll be helped

and you'll have friendship. So those are all pretty big. Yeah, we can go on for a while, but certainly those things. I'm just processing. Like, I'm just processing. It's sad, like, I feel like so much of this podcast can be like silence, but it's just

I have processing where you were thinking about an answer to a question. So sorry. Sorry if this sounds super choppy. Let me give one more to Hillsdale, guys. Define the relationship. Thank you. There you go.

Here we go. This would be both good advice and levity, right? Ask, when you see the girl, ask her out on a date. That's terrifying. You could try like, what if she says no. Hello, my name is Storm. Would you like to go to something with me? Well, he's good now.

He doesn't need that. He's good now. He's squared away. You could even try the really subtle. I would like to ask you out on a date. Yes. That's a banger. See?

Put that one in the playbook, guys. Boom. But do it. Just do it. Just do it. No long undefined friendationships. That was a thing when you were, was that a thing as you, when you were a student? That's been a thing since, oh yeah.

The dawn of time. Yeah. That's right. Just go after it. Just ask the girl out. Just ask the girl out. And look, hey ladies, if the guy asks you out, be a, impressed even if you say no right like great that took courage he he came and asked don't diss him for

it be impressed that he had the virtue to ask you out and then uh hey it's cool and then let it be what it is unless you being a weirdo then like public vlogging actually well i can't tell that story because you're not allowed to talk about your kids on on the radio that's why i won't talk about my children but if i had a daughter who was 16 um It might be that she just recently said no to somebody who asked her out. And, you know, he asked and she said no. And that was perfectly fine. I thought that was very healthy.

And they're friends. And it's all good. Yeah, it's great. See, my preferred strategy after I ask it a woman is avoid eye contact like the plague and sprint away from her. If you see her in public, make sure to avoid her at all causes. Well, because I've just, I've just fumbled the bag. That's okay. kid only if it first if you could become the Winston Churchill of asking girls out you know

just never never never give up that's right feels like it's I'm just shooting these shots and it's not falling well you know slow down but and okay I say all these shots like I'm some like a woman a week here it's yeah slow down bucko it's it's been a dry spell that's okay your mother You heard it here first. It's been a dry spell over here on boys only. Actually, actually, it's going to be the name of the episode.

It's been a dry spell with Dr. Gerke. That's great. Oh, we make each other laugh a little bit too much, maybe. Well, I think we're kind of, we're starting to reach the close now. So something that you gave me,

it's a great gift you gave me at the end of my freshman year, you said, what class are you taking? And I said these ones. I said a couple of random history classes. You said stop it. And you were like and you said well what are you reading? And I was like I don't know, not nothing. I mean it's summer. I don't read. And you were like okay. First of all, that's the worst thing you could do. And also here's like six books to read. I read

most of them. I couldn't get through all of them. Dostoevsky is really, really dense. So we have a lot of listeners who do not go here Like parents and friends of ours And honestly even just for the people who do go here What would you assign essentially as if it was a class? What should the people be reading? This is a really loaded question And I'm sorry to kind of do this to you

Because obviously there's so much to be reading But like Well give it like maybe like like 10 books. Oh gosh. Ten? Yeah. Top three.

You know. Fine. Top three books. Okay. But you're like, I wish people were reading this. Yeah. Sure. Well, first of all, I would go back and correct, thank you for the compliment, but I go back and correct myself and not give you a list of six books.

I would give you a list of one books or two books. And I would say something like, pick a really great book and read it and read it again and read it to master. What was confessions? I read that. I read that like twice. There you go. So, um, yeah. know, Dr. Arne actually has reminded me of this a few times, and famously, you know, he gives that

advice, pick a book, pick a book for your whole life, pick a book that you're always reading, that you're never not reading. Because if you know that thing really well, then you will, well, then you'll know many things. And as I have gone along in life, the prudence of that, the wisdom of that has come home to me more and more. So, that said, not every, Everybody likes everything. So let me throw out a list of books for young Christian men. Actually, for young, for anyone. You know, we didn't talk about manliness much, but one of the things,

it's really hard to decide what, say, only men should know. Because, so ready? Number one, you already named it. Augustine's Confessions. Augustine's of Confessions is a fantastic starting place for so much. It's a point of entry into the classical tradition. It's a point of entry into the scripture. It's a point of entry into theology.

It's a biography. It's poetry. It's fantastic. Read Augustine's Confessions. Let's say once a year until you're dead. Yeah. Augustus' Confessions is great. I presume that everyone's reading the Bible, reading the scriptures.

That just goes to that saying. Although probably it shouldn't go without saying. So read your Bible. Read Augustine's Confessions. I'll add one more maybe for, the slightly more adventurous. Augustine's on the Trinity. That's in that book, in that list of books, that one book that you're always reading, for me on the Trinity is the first one, is that book. You will find it is the perfection of Plato and Aristotle. It's one of the few books where

you can clearly get Plato and Aristotle and classical Roman history and Augustine and Jesus and the Gospels and John all in one thing, right? So, yeah, it's a few books. It's a lot of pretty great. So Augustine's on the Trinity. For people living in the modern world, thinking about geopolitics, thinking about what will become, I'd say read either Winston Churchill's biography of John Duke of Marlborough or pick up and start reading his five-volume history of the Second World War. That is a time of great analogy. And Churchill is a magnificent writer. He's a, a, a, a magnificent writer. a master of the English language. Yeah, so if you're interested in history

and you're thinking about geopolitics and the political sphere, yeah, Churchill. I really like Jane Austen's persuasion. I haven't read that one. Persuasion is the, I think it's the only Jane Austen that I've read, but I really like persuasion. Persuasion is all about investigating the gap between appearance and truth.

And it's a great story, and it doesn't take very long. And, yeah, so really, really, I read Austin's persuasion. Do you want me to stop or? No, Cicero. Keep going on, you. Read Cicero, of course. Cicero's on duties.

Cicero's Republic duties and laws is, you know, one of the great philosophical triads in the Western canon. And it shows up again and again. It influenced so much for so long. If you've read that well, you can perceive many things. I can give you a stop. I can. That's seven. That is three more.

I mean, if you can add three more. Sure. I'll give you one more. Coleridge and Wordsworth. My brother Joel is really the person who knows them and has introduced me recently. But Coleridge and Wordsworth. You can find their works collected in their lyrical ballads

in the Oxford World Classics editions. Great romantic poets of the 18th century with a long influence in American life. Again, masters of the language. Ah, the Count of Monte Cristo. Alexander Dumas. That's pretty great. So, yeah, I could go on for a while.

Oh, and of course, the Western American Heritage readers. Yep. That's right. Go back, read them, read them again. But I'll come back to the thing, Dr. Arn. Oh, yeah, and the Grand Inquisitor. Sorry, right, read Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky's the idiot.

That was the one you gave me a reader. Yeah, that's great. Oh, it's all about what would the modern world do if Jesus showed up here? how would they treat him? But, you know, back to Dr. Arns, that original advice, which is whatever you pick to read, actually read it.

You know, Seneca said, a man with too many books is like a man without a country. Spends all his time wandering around, but never knows his own home, right? Which is to say, you can walk into an office or a house and see thousands of books lining or hundreds of books lining the bookshelves,

how many of them if you open will you find detailed marginalia all the way through? Right. So maybe set this as a goal to actually read all the books that you collect in college. Leave college and never buy another book until you've read all the books you have

really deeply. And you'll have plenty of work in life. Yeah, that's something that I've been trying to do more of, I'm very much a reader where I'm just like, I'm just going to read the book. But then I've had to teach myself how to do marginalia and and write down what I'm thinking as I'm reading, mostly for class.

So I don't forget like, oh, this is here. This is here. This is there. But I got two more for you. Oh, sure. Plato's Republic, of course. Not a big fiction guy. Yeah, I'm afraid not.

Well, no, I gave you Dustin. I'm asking. And Grand Inquisitors. Dumas. Dumas. D'Ser Fiction, I believe. Yeah. No, Plato's Republic is pretty significant.

if you like military history Julius Caesar's accounts of the Golic Wars for sure Also great way to learn Latin The one you are I'll never forget translating those From Latin

Great way to learn Latin Well the one you already brought up Thassadus Tacitus He gives you an account of the operations of Power from the center

And he has Substantial access To both the external appearance of those things and the internal appearance of them. And so when you've read Tacitus very deeply, you learn perennial things about human nature, particularly in relation to to power, money, glory,

political order, passion. So, yeah, Tacitus. Actually, sorry, I always have more. Like, I know I was like, we're going to close soon, but like I have more. Run it, do you have more now. So we, in class, you're often like, well, given saying this,

but like, let's look at, He's saying this for a reason. He's using his words specifically. Because he's showing his, I'm going to use a word. I know you don't like it. I'm going to say spin. I know you don't like that word. But I'm just going to use it.

When did I say I don't like the word? I could have sworn you said he didn't like that word one time. I'll get your spin on this. Not like, like, um, basketball spin, I guess. His, his new,

his, whatever. Do you think that it's possible for someone to give an account of something without that, without inherently putting their own twist on it or and be though but be is it even a bad thing to have it good uh no and no uh by which i mean this uh historians in general but it's not just in history it's philosophy it's it's anything um people draw on their experience and insight to illuminate their study and learning they they

often do that um they have a they have a question usually driven by some kind of experience in their own life that actually motivates them to go back and think about something old to check that thing. And that means it's certain that because human beings are limited, that they will shape, that their original question and their own experience will shape the thing they pursue and see. So of course, there's, every act of thinking is going to happen in a historical moment. And later on, that moment will be evident to us as readers. And in the same way that, you know, if you watch a movie or look at a car from the 50s, you can tell it was made in the 50s. It reflects human nature and the people working and living in that time.

That's kind of part of the great thing is one of the reasons I like Edward Given so much is his limitations are apparent. They're clear. His views are obvious before you. And then once you see them, you can also sort of see through them to ask, what's timeless in the thing that he saw? No, I think that's a great thing. And that is neither reducing every claim to a mere perspective, nor suggesting that some person has a God's eye view from nowhere, right? We're not limited to that set of options. So, yeah, no, not at all. I think, um, historical inquiry is a wonderful thing, and people do so from where they're living

and jump in somewhere and enjoy it. Do you think it ever could become bad? Because like Gibbon, for example, he wears it on his sleeve. I mean, he could be blind and read that Gibbon has a spin. And Tacitus also that great line, I knew nothing of Galba, Otho, or it's Vitilius.

He kind of credits those emperors for his slight spin. Do you think it becomes an issue, though, when they try to conceal it? because if they're outright with it, if they're very telling you, like this is kind of where I'm coming from. Sure.

You know, I'm a Greek living here. Like it's an issue to conceal bias? Yeah. But wasn't your question just that everybody has it? Everybody has, yes, but does it become an issue when you try to conceal it? Try to be like, I have the objective.

Very neutral. Trust me. You're clearly not because you're a human being. So is it better to just be open with it or just become a problem when you try to hide it? Well.

So, yeah, that latter thing, right? You even see that in some modern scholarship, where the scholar will acknowledge that his own limitations and then say, nonetheless, here's my best take. I think that's a fine thing to do. The reality is, or the deeper conundrum, is if you take someone like Tacitus, say, you can ask if he's, if his own pretensions to objectivity,

are themselves a form of attempting to say manipulate the reader, right? But the beauty of it is that you have you have time and space from him and you have your own education, right? And so the fact that you can answer the question also means you're capable of investigating the truth and that work goes on.

It always will. I got nothing. And again, I got nothing. I got nothing to say. That work does go on. Just like our work. And in fact, the work must go on so much so that we're going to have to end the episode right about now and and call it a bit of a day.

Dr. Greene, thank you so much for coming on. It's such an honor to have you on. Do you have any sort of final remarks for the people? Last words. Last word. Last ever words. Take me out back. You may have been informed, but all of our guests have never been seen.

You've never seen a guest after they've been on the podcast. I will not go silently into the night. I love that poem. Last words. Well, hopefully not very last words. Not no, but of course. Signing off, though, what would I say? Be grateful every day.

You're at Hillsdale. That's a rare gift. That's a gift in history. Few people are given that thing. You are here because other people out somewhere in the world are working, and they are giving a really significant portion of their life's work to make a place where you can come to build friendship in knowing the truth. to have joy and have something that sustains you in the life ahead.

They don't have to do that. They do that in hope. And they have given you something permanent. So don't take it for granted. Be grateful for it. And be grateful for it and enjoy it, which is also to say, don't work too much. Take a break.

Chill out. work from 7 o'clock in the morning till 7 o'clock at night and if you fill those hours you will have plenty of time for leisure and friendship. To sit in your armchair and listen to Boys and Law. That's right.

Take slightly fewer credits and spend a little more time hanging out with your friends. You won't regret it. I'll be sure to unsign up from your 16 credit course. Yes. Do not take that course.

16 credits. I recommend no one take it and then I won't have to pretend to teach it. Thank you so much, sir, for your time. Hey, thanks so much. This has been Boys Only. I've been Storm Drexler. I've been in Gallagher.

And we'll see you guys next week.