WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Sofie Kellar: The Huldra and Kitsune as Phenomenological Fox Tricksters Across the East and West

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

WRFH's Alexandra Comus talks with Sofie Kellar about her thesis for the Collegiate Scholars Program, "The Huldra and Kitsune as Phenomenological Fox Tricksters Across the East and West."From 05/03/05

Hello, this is Alexander Comus, and he was listening to Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm your host, and I'm going to be speaking with Sophie Keller right now on her CSP thesis. Hi guys, I'm Sophie. So my thesis is about the Fox trickster as Young describes him, but due to the nature of archetypes, archetypes are usually seen as something that you use to define characters and stories. story motifs in folk tales, but when you look at the folk tales, you find that there are so many nuanced forms of these characters that his archetypes usually don't actually encompass all of them satisfactorily. And he himself actually says this too. They're not the ultimate meaning. They're just

frameworks and tools for thought. So using that and combining it with Merleau-Pontief's phenomenology, I find a couple of different types of trickster archetypes, so to speak, in several folktales. For instance, my thesis covers mainly, it covers a slew of tricksters, but it focuses mostly on the fox tricksters of Scandinavia, the Haldra, which is a shape-shifting foxwoman, and the Kitsunei, which is also a shape-shifting foxwoman, and that functions slightly differently in Japan. And we find through focusing on these two fox tricksters and how they behave in their stories, which are almost, you know, they parallel one another, even though they're on opposite sides of the world.

They parallel one another, very almost verbatum. And we learn a lot through this lens about how the actual physical phenomena of Fox biology informs the archetype. Interesting. So one example is how the fox is. And it's kind of like a real trickster. We learn more about tricksers by seeing them. from a bottom up kind of methodology,

then from a top-down methodology. So instead of saying, oh, this is how we define a trickster and then slapping it on to all these foxes, we look at, okay, here is a fox. Why is this a fox? And we think about what foxes are in nature. They're slinky little creatures.

They're sly. They're renowned for being like, like hyper-intelligent almost. They also travel in between time and day. I mean, they try. in between times, so they travel between night and day, which makes them a creature of them in between. They're kind of the real trickster of the world. And we can look at other things like mice and coyotes and cats and learn all about the real tricksters of the world. So do you see these trickster characters

being, or these trickster archetypes being compared to people? Or what exactly do you see as the manifestations of these, like in folklore? Or is it more anthropomorphic foxes? Yeah, so I think what you're asking is how this branches into human characters in folklore. Yeah, that's very interesting. There are different folktales that do this differently, actually, which is kind of interesting. So then folk tales will say, oh, capital F, Fox does this, this, and that. And that's often like post-Christian kind of writing, and you're supposed to see that kind of as an allegory.

So we know that it's not really a fox, but we know fox is kind of more than just a fox. He's us as we are kind of fox-like, kind of like a character wearing a mask. And then other folktales do something else, like the Holder and the Kitsunei, like I was saying, and you have this suspense of disbelief and you think that they're, you mention that there are real creatures who have this kind of, this whole way of behaving in this whole, even cosmos that they are kind of attributed to, this otherworldly kind of world that they're part of. So how do the Holder and the Kitsunei, um, different? That's actually a perfect bridge to what I was just saying.

They differ mostly in this, I think. The Haldra are part of a slew of elves and a slew of fantastical creatures. But we don't have a lot of information about that. We don't have like a system for that. Whereas in Japan, the Kitsune are part of a more distinct cosmology. they're emissaries of Anari, the rice goddess. And we have temples to the Kitsunei.

We have, like, there's a whole system behind it. There's a whole cosmology behind it, and they have a function in that that is very clear. So I would say that's the most striking difference. Awesome. Do you have any favorite stories that come to mind right now about either of them, or any trickster archetype, really? One of them is not necessarily about a

haldra, but it's about a very similar creature to the haldra. And there's a story that parallels it in the Kitsune as well. I call this in my in my thesis I call it the melosine motif and the the Scandinavian version goes like this so a man marries a beautiful woman that he meets and she is clearly otherworldly but he doesn't really know exactly in what way so he decides to marry her anyway but in order to do so because she's from the other world she's you know supernatural she has to lay a taboo on him which if he breaks they have to separate forever. And the taboo is she can't look, he can't look at her while she's eating her dinner.

She takes her dinner to the room every night and eats it. And so finally, he has this suspicion that maybe she's cheating on him. And so he, he breaks into the room. He catches her putting all the food into a hole in her back, like kind of a tree hole. That's interesting. What is the, like, why? I don't know. I mean, I do, the hole is kind of an interesting motif. It's a very like trickster related motif. The holes in the body are all orifices of becoming and of life and death. So the fact that she puts this into a hole in her back is very telling. It's a very odd thing.

It definitely sets her apart. And it indicates this trickster nature just by the phenomenology of the hole. I suppose it also allows for, in the world, it allows for foxes to hide. Yeah, that's a good point. Have places to jump out of. Yeah, yeah. this is a big deal in Japan as well. There are medicine women and medicine men that would sit next to their foxholes

because there was this belief that they were foxes. And so they always sat next to their hole. That was their borough. So they had a deep connection with holes in hiding places and of, I guess, links to the other world where they lived. So conversely, do you have any kind of motif of foxes being hewers themselves? Or is it more that the hewers are seen as foxes? Like, do you see them having kind of magical arts of some sort?

I think in Japan, especially the foxes are linked with healing, the foxes themselves. Their body parts in particular have healing powers. I think this tends to be a more Asian thing. And, yeah, so I think that that does stem from the nature of the foxes. Interesting. So how is the story of how you came to this thesis? I had the idea. I was fascinated by the trickster architect for a long time.

In my senior year of high school, I wrote a paper on Iago for Mathello. Oh, he's wonderful. He's wonderful. He's a very interesting villain because he doesn't seem to have a real motivation, and yet he does atrocious things, and he does them with beautiful, like just a beautiful sense of attention to detail and this ability to plan out without, just by the spur of the moment and inspiration. He has an elegance about him, I suppose.

And it's kind of similar to Aaron the Moore from Titus Andronicus. But Iago seems to, I don't know. I mean, Aaron the Moore certainly takes delight in what he does. But he doesn't seem to have the same level of elegance that Iago does. I don't know. Would you agree with that? I need to brush up on my Shakespeare, to be honest. Yeah. No, yeah, I'm sure you're right.

He has a sense of elegance. and there's almost this like gaping need to push forward with it. And at the very end, when everybody realizes that it's Ayago all along, they ask him why he did it and he says nothing. And I think that, in a sense, is his answer. Okay. So how did this bring you to the trickster? So the trickster archetype was interesting to me because I was also writing a novel. And one of the characters was extremely bothering to me.

And I couldn't figure out why she was so confusing. So that was part of the light bulb moment where that made. the tricks are so interesting to me because it suddenly clarified that problem. And then the Kitsunei caught my, I don't remember how they caught my attention, but I went through a rabbit hole in like Christmas of 2022, I think, and just got totally sucked into this world of Japanese yokey. So that was a lot of fun. Yonkai are goblins.

Oh, awesome. They're a modern, kind of a more, they're like a modern word for ony, which are Japanese monsters. Okay. And so with these trickster archetypes, do you typically see them being evil or they kind of in between? Because I, you know, of the paper I recently did on the Steppenwolf. Mm-hmm. And unlike the man-wolf archetype.

Mm-hmm. And it seems like that is a situation in which the human being is a warground a little bit. Yeah, no, that's totally right. And do you get the same thing with the trickster or not as much? much? Because it seems that the trickster has a bit more control over what he or she does. Well, yes, but also no. I think they're distinctly out of control. They're lured by the art of what they're doing more than by the meaning of it. So they're very prone to doing things that have basically, they're very prone to doing crazy

things just to do them, I guess. So I think, I think you're, what you're saying about the Steppenwolf is definitely applies here. And there are good twixers and they're bad twisters, but they are very, they're very drawn to that type of action. I see. So it's more an aesthetic act than anything else. I think so. Or at least primarily.

Mm-hmm. That's fascinating. This kind of inspiration that they have. And it either leads to chaos or it somehow leads to something. They're very destructive, but they're also creative through the destruction. I see. So they kind of, they border it. They definitely border what we think of.

as right action and wrong action, they kind of define the edges of that. I see. So can you speak a bit more about their creativity or their aesthetic waynescape, I suppose? Yeah, so this was actually really interesting to me while I was writing my thesis because part of my goal that I don't believe that I quite reached, but that I think would be a good topic for a further thesis, was to find some kind of sub-trickster archetype that focused on that. One example is

De Little Fox in one of one British folk tale in which this fox cub becomes a kind of angelic kind of guide and there are several other foxes that are like that. I think that the trickster because tricksters are creatures of the in between their emissaries and

they're very distinctly characters that I guess mirror the nature of Hermes as a god of the the traveler's god of the crossroads there is this

this opening this path towards a sub trickster archetype that functions that way kind of as an angolos and angelus and angel interesting and you have that pivots us to the psychopomp yes it's a psychopomp yeah how um

how did you come upon this nature of the trickster and what have you seen in terms of how they function as psychopamps in literature or just folk tradition? I think they all have a quality that hints towards that. But again, like, the problem with the archetype of the trickster is that it's such an umbrella

that you have these contradictory tricksters that have nothing to do with one another. Like, in my thesis, for instance, Prometheus is a trickster because he breaks the cosmological boundary. You know, tricksters break boundaries. They're creatures of the in-between. They're always crossing. crossing the line etiquettely or cosmologically.

But while Prometheus does it in that sense, he breaks Zeus's boundary. Hermes does it in another sense. And so I think you could probably find a way to define different types of tricksters based on the type of border they cross or mend. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Do you typically see the tricksters being punished for what they do, or does it depend based on the myth in a lot of cases? Um...

Because I know Prometheus, I mean, he... Yeah. He gets chained to a rock and has the eagles pick at him. Yeah. No, you're right. They're definitely... They, because of their tendency to break the laws of society, they really do become... Um...

Yeah. They definitely become scapegoats. And... I would even say that some people, when they hear about the trickster archetype, they say instantly, oh, that's the devil. And to a degree, they're right, but they're not completely right. Interesting. What do you mean by that? I think that, again, like, because a trickster archetype is so broad, you could really say that in different respects, Satan is a kind of trickster, and so are all the angels, and so is God. but because that's the case

we need to learn more about the trickster to really understand more and I think that involves a lot of reading and a lot of investigating from actual text and actual folklore and not stamping the trickster architect on everything because you kind of move backwards instead of moving forwards.

Yeah, I suppose from a cursory glance it would seem that the trickster is a more creative force and kind of puts himself out on the line, whereas the Satan type seems to be more of an accuser. And he might, of course he's kind of tricker. He lives in trickery. Yeah.

And he tricks a lot of people. But he is more clearly attempting to catch somebody and what they've done incorrectly or whatnot. Yeah. Whereas with the trickster, it seems very creative. in some ways. I don't know. Do you think that's accurate? I think that to have that conversation, we need to break out of Young's definitions, because I think you're onto something. And I think that brings us out of Young's playground,

which is part of my goal. So yeah, yeah, I think, go ahead, sorry. So what are the, some of the differences between Jung's account and what you found in Murillo-Ponty? Well, I mean, I know there are huge differences in between what they say, but how did you find that thread and where does each philosopher pick up? Because I know Marloponte talks a lot about, like, infleshment, but I don't know if that's particularly what you picked up on. He talks about infleshment. The part that I picked up on the most was body mind image because I think that this idea of like a real metaphor and the symbolism of, actual things is how we need to understand the world. Like, that's why I love phenomenology.

It's the phenomena that matters. It's not the ideas. Absolutely. So it's more about the lived experience of the type, I suppose. Yeah. Okay. In terms of Carl Jung, how would you suggest that his framework is limiting the way that we just encountered? Well, I think that he has, he has a, he has a, he has a,

definitely a genius. But he draws connections that, again, kind of like the trickster itself, while you're a creator, you're also a destroyer. And while you analyze and break things apart, you also have to come up with, you know, put things back together again. Yeah. And he does part of that, but he doesn't do all of it. He doesn't accept that.

Yeah, yeah. Have you seen the red book ever? No, I haven't. It's insane. He's, he's. clearly very, very intelligent. I mean, you have, you have references from all these aspects of Eastern philosophy and then Western tradition and Western traditions. So, if I can even say that. So you have a musical reference and then something about the

great god of Braxes and then you have too many connections, yeah. And then you have like a drawing to go with it about, oh, here's what I, here's a vision I had the other day. Oh my gosh. It's like, thanks, Carl. I mean, you learn a lot by drawing connections, but you can definitely take it too far because when everything becomes everything, then nothing's anything. It's fair.

A good point for us Permanodians. Yeah. I'm kidding. Not entirely, though. All right, so, anything else that you think is really crucial to say about the trickster archetype? I guess.

I guess methodological. speaking, I think we can all learn from this, even if we don't all become deeply immersed in the mythologies of the Holdren, the Kitsunei, we can still, in anything in our lives, like, see how things actually are through our own eyes and realize that reality is not objective or subjective, but both and. Yeah, the phenomenon knowledge is, at least the post-Huselian ones, by which I mean, Heidegger. Yeah.

They get a lot into the problem of defining things as objective or subjective. Mm-hmm. Because they talk about how while there is a reality, Heidegger uses the word Yeomining kite. Hmm. Which is about how in every instance, you are seeing things from a perspective. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But at the same time, there is something that you can call objective that you are seeing.

Yeah. It's just that it's going to be nuanced because it's always a way. mediated. Exactly. Yeah, reality is the, at least the way I put it in the thesis, is the conjunction between the object as it is, and you seeing the object. It's everything as it is seen by you. Yeah, so would you say that the trickster mediates reality in a particularly different way?

Um, I don't. It's probably hard to say because there's so many different instances of the trickster. Yeah, they definitely, they're, they're part of that process of, of seeing and being. of reality and the creation of reality. So the trickster in us is how we see the world, I guess. Okay. And is there any way in which the trickster, as they run on these aesthetic principles,

perhaps over and above, ones that are immediately ethical or unethical, would you say they have any particular approach they often seem to take in literature? Like, is there a, Is there something more particular, more narrow about how they inform reality or how they change the boundaries of what is normal? Yeah. So the jester is one example of this. And like traditionally, the court jester would mock the king. That's why he has the point he has. It's supposed to look like his crown. And people need that. They need to be. able to remember that the world is more than just how politics says it is. And remember that we're all

human and that to a degree, the high is low and the low is high. And that's what the trickster does. He flips things. He reverses things and he shakes everything up so that we realize what is really real. It's not always as it seems. And sometimes that can be jarring or shocking at first. And that's why people usually don't like the trickster. But for better or for worse, we need to have some kind of a trickster within us to be able to see things as they are and turn things around in our minds. Absolutely. I think that's about all we have time for, but thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Awesome. And again, you're listening to Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. Thank you.