WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - The Equip Ministries Podcast: Dr. Andy Naselli on Making Decisions

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Join us for our first episode of the Equip Ministries podcast as hosts Patrick Scott and Ethan Davenport interview Dr. Andy Naselli from Bethlehem College and Seminary on how to make decisions according to God's will for your life. Equip is a student-run, evangelical Christian ministry on Hillsdale's campus that is supported by local churches.

Hello and welcome to the very first edition of the Equip Ministries podcast radio show. My name is Patrick Scott. I'm joined here by Ethan Davenport and a special guest, Dr. Andy Nasseli. It's my pleasure to join you. So Dr. Nasseli is joining us. He is the third speaker that EQIP has brought on just in the past year. And our third speaker in total, we previously had Mr. John Stone Street here from the Colson Center and Jim Hamilton, Dr. Jim Hamilton, from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

And tonight, Dr. Niseli is going to be speaking on the conscience. And this is a topic that he wrote a book about and that we're all really excited to hear about. And so for just the first question, I just wanted to get a little bit of your background, sort of your, you know, the track of your life, how you ended up in the sort of position in place where God has you right now. My wife, Jenny, and I have been married for over 20 years. And God has blessed us with four daughters. So ages now, 16, 12, and 13, and 7, and they're all about to have birthdays, so it's going to be a rough stretch for a few months here.

I'm trying to remember their ages. And we moved to Minneapolis in 2013, so I could teach at Bethlehem College and Seminary, where John Piper is our chancellor, and it's a joy to serve there. I teach New Testament, systematic theology, and ethics. And I've been a pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church slash the North Church for the last nine years, and in January of this year. here, I planted with three other pastors, Christ the King Church, in the Stillwater area. It's a suburb of the Twin Cities. So I'm now a lead pastor of Christ the King Church while continuing full-time as a professor of theology in New Testament at Bethlehem. So can you give us a little bit of just kind of a sneak peek about what you'll be talking about tonight in your lecture?

I know that for those listening now, you know, they won't really be able to. Yeah, basically three steps here is defining what the conscience is. is. And then the second step is, how do I personally relate to my own conscience? And then the third is, how do I relate to other people's consciences? What was the thing that prompted you initially to write this book in the first place? I grew up in some very lovely, theologically conservative and culturally conservative circles. And some folks in those circles were quicker than maybe they should be to separate from other Christians and would label other Christians as disobedient brothers or maybe just too quickly write them off as unfaithful. And I wanted to understand why and how we

should relate to people when our consciences disagree about doctoral matters and practical matters. And I'm trying to say that with utmost respect because I'm not burning bridges with the good folks who raised me and shepherded me, but that's what interested me to, to be. pursue it. And when did this book come out again? I believe Crossway published it in 2016. In 2016. Okay. So this is before COVID when probably most people started thinking about these issues about how does the Bible, you know, instruct us to live with scenarios where, you know, we differ from people politically and stuff like that. But it's not necessarily like, oh, you know, Bible is saying you can or can't wear that. Yeah, you mentioned Jim Hamilton a moment ago as one of your speakers, we're friends. And when I was

writing this book in 2014-15. I told him what I was doing. And he's kind of like, huh, I hope that's helpful. He didn't strike him as like, we need that book. And I'm glad I did it. I think he's told me now he's grateful for it. But I've gotten lots of questions about how do we relate to the government and masking and vaccines and all that stuff. Ethan, did you have any questions for Dr. Niseli? We'll take a few just quick hits and then we'll jump into the main topic that we wanted to talk about today, which is actually an article that you wrote called God's will and making decisions. And so, Ethan, if you have anything, fire away. Yeah, we can jump into that, into that most recent book that you've written, Dr. Nasselli.

It's really a booklet. It's super short. Okay. Yeah. You start off the booklet with a definition of what you call a subjective view of making decisions that Christians can sort of fall into this. So could you just, to begin here, could you just define that? And what is that subjective view? Yeah, and also where did it come from? Yeah. So there's a guy who wrote his PhD dissertation on this in the 70s and then wrote a book about it, his name's Gary Friesen.

And he has been helpful to me in articulating this very popular view that has really come about probably since about George Mueller and Keswick theology in late 1800s and early 1900s. So here's what the view is that I am disagreeing with. it has a premise that for every decision we make, God has a perfect individual will. So typically people think about, you know, who am I going to marry? What job should I take? Where should I go to college? So that God has one house in mind, one car in mind, one spouse in mind.

I need to find that one to be in God's perfect will. So our job then is to discover that very particular will and decide in accord with that. And then the key thing about this view is that the way we find that individual particular will is not only with Scripture and wise counsel, but also, and sometimes primarily with inner impressions and feelings and senses, words from the Lord, outward signs to determine the Holy Spirit's leading. And then you can have this confirmation you did it correctly when it turns out well, and you have peace about it. So on the topic of the subjective view that you talk about in this little booklet, you know, what sort of value should we place on, you know, an internal feeling that we get that's we feel like calling us to make a certain decision? How do you see that issue?

God can do anything he wants consistent with his nature. So if God wants to reveal himself directly to a person, I believe he can. But the problem is people are presenting a paradigm for discerning God's will that emphasizes is what you just described as normal. And so when people have a big decision, they think they need to have that kind of experience in order to proceed. And I argue, that's not normal, and we don't need that.

If God gives that, that's possible. But even then, there's the question of, did I hear it right and did I interpret it correctly? And what God has given us for sure is written scripture, and he's told us to get wisdom and to think wisely, and we don't need specific direct revelation from God to make a decision. God's given us the Bible. Okay. Yeah, and that's, is that sort of related to in the book that you talked about four diagnostic questions to help you decide what to do?

And so the first one that you said was holy desire. So what do you want to do that's, you know, consistent with, you know, God's will and that it's not sinful? And then two, an open door, you know, what opportunities do you have in front of you? And three, wise counsel and four, biblical wisdom. Do you think that all of these need to be in place for you to make a good decision? Or is there one that you can do without? Some people estimate that we make 35,000 decisions every day. So obviously, I'm not suggesting that for every decision, you have to do a checklist of those four technostic questions. We often make decisions very quickly. Like when you're driving, am I going to change into the left lane or not? And you're not thinking, well, what does God the counsel say? And

You're moving quickly. We typically think of those sorts of diagnostic questions for what we think are the bigger decisions that are weightier with more significant consequences. And I emphasize to what we think, because sometimes we make a small decision that has huge ramifications. Like you show up at Hillsdale College and you sit next to this lady in your freshman class

and within a year you're engaged. Like you didn't plan it out to sit by her and to lead to something, but that was an important decision where you sat that day. So within reason, when we can discern what seems to us to be a weighty decision, it makes more sense to slow down and ask diagnostic questions like those four. So for a big decision, like finding who to marry, do you see it as a requirement for people personally, or it should be a requirement to be able to sort of, I mean, I know you said you don't really like the checklist aspect of this, but should you be able to say that all of

these are in line with that decision? Yeah, with a caveat. So you just got engaged. So I won't put you on the spot here, but I'm guessing you want to marry this young lady. I do. You have a desire, and that's a holy desire. And then are the doors open? You don't have to answer this question, but did you talk to your parents? Did you talk to her parents? Did you talk to her dad? Have you thought this through financially? Are you going to be able to provide? Is it going to work financially, etc, et cetera, et cetera. Those are all open doors. And if those weren't all open, that might give you good reasons to pause. And then with wise counsel, if you've talked to people who are spiritually mature who know you well, I know the situation well, and they're all saying red light, red light,

or even yellow light, that would be reason to reconsider. Not necessarily you have to, but it's wise to listen to other wise people, and they might be seeing something that you're not seeing. So again, if you've talked to otherwise people and they've encouraged you, that's another encouragement to proceed. And then the biblical wisdom is kind of like a drip pan category, catch all, is given all the circumstances, what's going on, what do you think wisdom would call for in the situation? So yeah, I do think for a big decision like that, if you hit a big roadblock with those diagnostic questions, at the very least you should pause and reflect more deeply. Can you talk more about the biblical wisdom aspect of that? is that saying like a specific biblical command regarding that decision? It's not just you.

It's, I'm going to make this decision because the Bible tells me to. And if that's the case, then what if it's a matter of a decision that the Bible isn't very clear on? Do you resort to your conscience after that? Yeah. So wisdom in its essence is a skill to live wisely, to live prudently, astutely. So you'll have to answer questions in life like you, may have a daughter someday, and she may at some point ask you if she may have a particular clothing, and you might think, that's not modest. And she might say, come on, dad, there are no rules in the

Bible about how short my shorts can be or whatever. And you're going to have to make a judgment call with wisdom saying, well, you may not understand this, but you're going to have to trust your dad, that dressing modestly means not being ostentatious or seductive in how you dress. And I think that piece of clothing on your body would be communicating the wrong thing. You trust your dad here. Now, you can't flip to a passage that has like a picture of that clothing article. I have to prove your point. That's using wisdom. Wisdom's necessary. I think I saw that in Leviticus somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Short shorts. Dr. Niselli, let's say that in a particular situation, this person is faced with a decision,

and they make a decision. It's a holy desire, and they seek counsel, and they, they, search of scriptures for wisdom that could aid them in their decision, and they make this decision, and then things don't go so well. What should their reaction be? Should they regret? Should they wonder what could have happened? What should their reaction be? Well, it depends. It may be that they look back on their decision-making process and realize they missed it, and they made a bad decision, and they're living with those consequences. So that is very possible. On the other hand, the Bible doesn't promise health and wealth, and we often, when we're making exactly the decisions we should, as a wise Christian,

will experience suffering and heartache. So suffering and heartache do not indicate we chose wrongly, but they might indicate that. It depends. So how are you able to discern the outcomes of a certain situation and, you know, figure out if that was the right decision because of those outcomes? Yeah. Well, let's have a hypothetical here.

Let's say that you wanted to marry some lady, and your parents who are godly parents know you, know the situation well, not just cautioned against it, but said, you shouldn't do this. This is unwise. This is not going to go well. This isn't a good fit for various reasons. And all the godly people in your life are telling you the same thing. Her parents are against, like everything's against it. And yet you and your impetuosity decide, I'm going to proceed and do what I want to do. And then come to find out everyone else is right. well, that might be a time where you think back and thought, you think, I regret not listening to wise counselors. I should listen to wise counselors in the future.

You can learn from that lesson. On the other hand, let's say, as I'm imagining you've just done, you have followed proper protocols as you pursued a lady. And then, let's say there's a tough spot in your marriage. Maybe one of you gets cancer and dies or, you know, something horrific. Should you go into a tailspin, like, am I? Am I out of God's world? did I do the wrong thing? That's ridiculous thinking.

No, no, no, no. You were choosing wisely. Don't focus on the past and second-guess past decisions that you made wisely. Trust God as you keep running your Christian race. As Philippians 3, you press toward the mark, toward the prize of the high calling of God and Christ Jesus,

and you don't focus on what's behind you. Otherwise, I think you'd be paralyzed in the Christian life. Anytime something was unpleasant, you'd think, what did I do to bring about this bad consequence? Yeah, that's a good point. I know for myself that I can definitely tend to overanalyze things, both, you know, actual decisions and outcomes. And you talked in your, it might have been the introduction of your booklet about how people overanalyze decisions and, you know, they weigh, oh, does God want me to do this or not? But people really tend to overanalyze the outcomes of

decisions as well and how that's harmful and paralyzing as well. And so really the key is just to reflect and pray about it and everything, but eventually move. on and take action. Yeah, so a wise person will reflect on past decisions to learn from them, but not to commiserate in them. Like a lot of people, a lot of Christian leaders made foolish decisions during the COVID crisis in 2020, 2020, 2022 in that period. And they should own those mistakes and publicly say, I was wrong and not like pretend it didn't happen. And they should not repeat those in future situations. Bad, leadership, unwise people don't learn from mistakes like that. I think in our in our contacts at hills

Hillsdale College the student body I think is a student body of perfectionists and I know for myself I can often when faced with a decision I can often become anxious simply anxious or worried about you know what's going to happen if I if I do this versus this what comfort can we give people who tend to get anxious about making decisions even you know small decisions that could have ripple effects. My favorite passage to go to to address this issue is in 1-Peter 5, and most translations say something like humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God so that he'll exalt you in due time casting,

or the NIV just has a period and then says, cast your cares, starts a new sentence. So that is a participle casting, and I think it's an adverbial participle of means, so the NET Bible translates it this way. by casting. We humble ourselves by casting our anxieties on God. Proud people worry, humble people, cast their cares on the Lord. So for the kind of person you just described, the solution is to learn how to do that, how to be a humble person who comes to the Lord and says, Father, I feel worried, anxious about, fell in the blank.

I trust you with this. and it's a load-bearing shift from your shoulders to the Lord. That's a humble thing to do. And God tells you to do it. He gives you grace to do it. He blesses you when you do that. And if you don't do it, you're being proud. So what it says, look it up.

First Peter five, round six and seven. So one thing that's a slight pivot here, how would you know when God is closing a door versus when he's just making it harder to test your faith, challenge you. Is that a situation that you really discussed in your time researching this topic? Yeah. Sometimes it's a no for now. So a closed door doesn't mean it's a closed door in perpetuity. Like maybe someone applied to get into Hillsdale College and they were one of the unfortunate 86% of the people who get to know and they try again and try again and maybe they get

in after the fourth application. That could happen and that's worth doing if you want to keep pursuing that possibility. That's not wrong to keep trying. So you're basically asking for wisdom on when to know, okay, this is not just a closed door for now. This door is bolted shut to me. I need to move on. And that's where you need a good sense of common sense, of biblical wisdom to be able to look at the situation. No, all right, I need to move on. And then if the Lord really wants you to go back, he'll make that clear through your desires and circumstances. and such. And so for a different kind of situation, let's say you're able to, it's a big decision and you're able to hit all of the four boxes on here as far as, you know, it's a holy desire.

You know, you've got open doors. There's wise counsel and, you know, there's biblical wisdom. All of those boxes are checked. But let's say you're in a family situation where you're making a decision with your spouse and they disagree. And it's, you know, kind of a conscience matter if you want to relate it to that talk. How do you deal with those kinds of situations? And does that sort of fall into the wise counsel category? How would you respond to that? Well, I believe the Bible teaches that the husband is the head of his wife and therefore the head of the household. And when a husband and wife are making decisions, it's not like two peers with equal decision-making authority are proceeding what to do. A wise husband takes responsibility for the household. So any good thing his

wife does and any sin his wife does, he takes responsibility for. There's a, there's a, so when a husband sins, he's responsible for his sins, his wife is not. When the wife sins, she's responsible for sins and the husband's responsible for her sins. The husband has an extra responsibility as the head of the household. So when it comes to decision-making for the family, that is the husband's role. It's his job. It's his designed calling. And a wise husband's going to seek the counsel of his wife for sure and try to understand and get a blessing from her counsel. But the decision is his. And if it goes badly, the fault is his.

What husbands often do is a resort to, oh, we made it together. That's what she really wanted to do. And it goes badly, and then they blame her. That's a very unmanly thing to do, is to blame your wife, blame your family. You know, the husband needs to take responsibility. And you mentioned if it's a conscience matter.

Like, what if it's a situation where the wife thinks to do this, this, whatever it is, is sinful. Well, that's a little more complicated. So a wise husband would never ask his wife to do something that she's convinced is sin because she would be sinning against her conscience and therefore sinning. It's like, I'll choose something silly. Like, let's say she thinks that drinking root beer is sinful. Obviously, that's not a sinful activity.

But if she's convinced of that, it would be bad leadership for the husband to force her to drink root beer. That's ridiculous. Like, you wouldn't, you don't ever sin against your conscience, even for something that's permissible, because that's still a sin. Whatever's not a faith is sin, Romans 14 says. So, when you're, when you are responsible to lead a church, to lead a family, you need to take that into account. All right. Well, I think that's a great place to end right there.

Dr. Niseli, if anyone wants to learn more about your work, where can they go to find that? Andy Nasselli.com. A-N-D-Y-N-A-S-E-L-L-L. Hi. And also we will be trying to put the live stream of your lecture tonight on the conscience onto Equip Ministries's Facebook page at Equip Ministries. And so you can find that lecture there, along with John Stone Streets and Dr. Jim Hamilton's. And thank you so much for listening. This has been the Equip Ministries podcast on Radio for Hillsdale 101.7 FM.