WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - The Healing Hour: Do Not Let Your Children Do Anything That Makes You Dislike Them

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Today, Adriana and Erika discuss Rule Five of Jordan Peterson's Twelve Rules for Life: Do Not Let Your Children Do Anything That Makes You Dislike Them. They discuss how Dr. Peterson's ideas counter the modern trend of gentle parenting, weigh the merits of his advice, and talk about how to apply his ideas about child discipline to self discipline.

Hello and welcome to the Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale, where we bring you your weekly dose of healing. I'm your host, Adriana Azarian. And I'm your co-host, Erica Kaiba. And we are here to help you become your happiest, healthiest, fullest self. In today's episode, we are continuing our series on Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life. And today we're doing the fifth rule, which is, Don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them. Now, this is a fascinating one, especially for Adriana and I who do not have any children to speak of at this moment in time, which makes it interesting to comment on and think about.

But I think we can tie it to a lot of societal trends we're seeing, especially gentle parenting. I will also note that although I have no children, I was once a child myself. Wait, that's crazy. Yeah. So, like, you're qualified to speak on this for sure. I think so. I don't remember if I was a child or not. I doubt it.

Yeah, I think I'm uniquely qualified to talk about this. But yes. So before we do that, though, what did you do this week that was healing Erica? Adriana, I have started taking five minutes before I go to bed to read. Oh. Yeah, just for fun, not even for school or anything like that, because I wanted to see if it would like relax me. And it has. And it's just been so healing for me.

What are you reading right now? I'm reading Les Mis. Oh, that is not by reading. Well, the thing is that my sister got it for me as a Christmas present two years ago. And because it's such a big book, I'm like a very tiny chunk of the way through, even though I've been reading it for a while. But I decided that the way to attack it was in small doses. So, and then it's nice just to like be able to take a little bit of time every day because then you can, because Hugo writes, he reflects so deeply on all these different things. So I just find that it's easier to read him in small chunks where I can process the little bits that I read and really think about it.

Plus also, that's just a sustainable habit. Five pages a day is not very hard to attend. Five minutes, yeah. Five minutes or five pages? Five minutes. Okay, even better. Yum. Very nice.

How about you, Adriana? What has been your healing adventure this week? Yesterday was a really hard day for me because I was up until 2.30 in the morning working on something. and I really tried to avoid having to work that late, but it just ended up being that way. And so the next day I was really tired and really in a bad mood and I missed my work shift and it was just not good. And I think my past self would have been really mad at myself and punished myself. But I realized that like biologically, I require seven to nine hours of sleep every night and that the rest of my health is at risk if I don't. So that means that I will be cranky if I don't get no sleep. And like, it's okay to have some

grace for yourself. So I took about an hour nap after my classes were over just to kind of take care of myself and and get back in the right gear. So good for you. Yeah. Everything just goes more smoothly if you're your most healthy version of yourself and you're well rested. Yes. Yes. I felt very loved by myself. So that was good. But yeah, speaking, No, loving yourself. Let's get into telling your kids you don't like them. I know, not telling them that. Not letting your kids do anything that makes you dislike them. That's right. So that might seem a little bit harsh on the surface. Would you not say so? I was shocked when I first read this chapter. I was not happy with Jordan Peterson, but the more I thought about, the more I realized I think he is right.

Yeah. Ultimately. Yeah. Yeah. He definitely says a few out-of-pocket things. I thought in the chapter. But I think that ultimately it was coming from a place of compassion. And just to give you guys the context, what he opens with is this anecdote where he's walking through an airport. And there are these parents that are like their son is walking behind him. And he's maybe three years old. And he's just like emitting these high-pitched screams. Like he's wailing for no reason. And they're just kind of like embarrassed and ignoring it.

And this kid is making a scene. And it's bothering everybody in the airport and it's bothering the parents, but they don't do anything. anything about it. And his point in the chapter is that you shouldn't always be allowing that kind of behavior once the kid can help it. Because part of a parent's job is to make the kid into someone who can participate in society and who can kind of function in society. And if you, the message that you send them is you can do whatever you want to get attention, including just annoying everybody around you or you don't teach them what annoys people, then they're not equipped to participate in society.

Or they're very forceful and used to always getting their way, which also doesn't help at all with making friends, et cetera. Right. This is something that my parents always pointed out. Like, even to this day, they always point out, like, at church or in public, like, oh, like, those parents, like, don't know how to, like, discipline their kid. And I think that they're kind of right to point that out. I mean, I'm very grateful my parents always told me no.

Okay. And at the time, I was not happy. In retrospect, I looked back and I was a very sensitive kid, so I used to really like take it very hard and my parents, you know, got mad at me or like said no to me. But I look at some people around us now. And I think your parents never told you no or like explained social cues or circumstances to you. You know what I'm saying? And I feel bad for those people because they just don't know. because they were never taught.

And that's a hard situation to be in. But I think he really is right that you can't be a likeable. You can't be in society. You can't be a useful or contributing member of society unless you're likable. And that's just a hard reality of things. And you have to deal with the fact as a parent that you're not going to always like your kid. And you have to communicate to them that they're not always likable if they act a certain way. Exactly. And it also teaches them that their actions have consequences. Yeah. Like,

I remember when I was little, I would try to negotiate with my parents. I'd be like, no, but like, I should get to have dessert, even though I was misbehaving this one time. Please don't take away my dessert tonight. And I remember one time my dad was explaining to me, he's like, I would, one of the things I want you to learn for me is that, you know, like I don't go back on my word. So that was one of the things. And then also learning that actions have consequences and that, you know, in the real world you can't negotiate your way out of a punishment if you do something more serious. So I think you have to apply that principle to the big things and the small things. So, you know, if your parents teach you from a very young age, like, okay, you can't, like,

misbehave or, like, I don't know, throw a fit in this instance. And then you learn when you're older, like, fit throwing is not a thing that we do on a large scale. Wait. It's not. Fit throwing like maybe to the point where you like rob a bank because you are the main character. No, I'm just kidding. It's for the drama of the plot. It's for the plot.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that especially with this trend of gentle parenting of never telling your kids, no, always affirming what they want. I think George Peterson makes an interesting point that like we are good, but we also are inclined to do evil. And we can't be validating. single desire because some of our desires maybe like at a very base level or a good but can result in evil and we have to teach children the difference between good and evil and not affirm

every single passion that arises within us otherwise if your parents can ever tell you no when you grow up you can never tell yourself no and uh that has a lot of really scary consequences um so i think um before your child you know the difference between an adult and a child is is that the child does not have the inner, I'm trying to say like a built-in, like, judge-in, like, you are your own built-in authority figure. But you have to develop that. And, like, the authority figure that you made for yourself

is developed in part from your parents, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. The control that I have for myself is my own version of, like, I've developed that. Yeah, because, in part, because of your parents and the other authority figures that you've had in your life, that teach you what's right and what's wrong. Right. So like a child doesn't have that.

Yeah. And so maybe you can validate the desires of a mature adult who maybe just needs a little bit of guidance. But a child who is just totally lost and confused does not have any inner voice until you give them the inner voice. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. No, and you're absolutely right. Because a lot of the exposure I've had to people explaining gentle parenting and advocating for it, they kind of assume a sense of responsibility and maturity in the child.

that isn't there because if you're a kid, you're tabula rasa. Like you don't have all these built-in values and rational processes necessarily. And so explaining to a child, I'm going to need you to stop doing that. I'm going to need you to stop yelling. Do you think that's going to work every time? It's not going to work on every kid. And Jordan Peterson makes this very clear in the chapter. He talks about how something that kids do is they're pushing the limits

and they're trying to figure out what's appropriate and what's not. And they're kind of going to act out that. It's part of their nature in a lot of cases to act out and just see what happens. It might even be for attention in some cases, but it might also just be to find out what can I get away with. Right. And so trying to negotiate with them is, I think in some sense, they'll just like react. They'll just keep reacting and it won't necessarily work. It has to be a limit that you draw.

What do you think discipline should look like? And granted, there is a lot of nuanced this, especially because there are different ages, different temperaments of kids and parents alike. What do you think? I think that timeout corners are very effective. And this might be because that was like in my childhood, like the prime thing that happened. It's like, okay, like sit down, cool down for a second. Think. And Jordan Peterson talks about this too. And in like in some of his lectures too, he talks about how, I think one of his sons he would have him like, okay, you're really angry right now. You can just leave the situation and come back when you're ready to talk to us.

And then he would do that and then things would be a lot better because I think sometimes you just have to remove yourself from the situation and kind of clear your head. And honestly, I think that's applicable if you're an adult too. Yes. So it like teaches you something when you're a kid like, oh, like I don't have to respond right now. I can actually go over here for a second. Yeah. And think. Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? Um, okay, here's the thing is that when I was a kid, I was very much a lawyer. And I think I was still like this. Like I will justify whatever, even like from a very young age, I would justify everything that I would do. And I had a reason. And like, no one understood me. And like, and this is where I was coming from.

And it needed to be understood. This is why I did this. And that my punishment should be lighter because of that. And I don't know if I was just like a, I think I just thought of nuance from a very young age. Okay. Here's the thing is I think discipline always needs to come from a place of level-headed. A child needs to understand they're being punished because what they did was wrong, not because their parents are annoyed with them or mad at them. Otherwise, that just looks like the parent is acting out on their emotions, which is exactly what you are teaching your kid not to do.

So, he mentions, like, a light flick on the hand or something like that. I think that could be appropriate. I don't believe ever in, like, hating your child or something that could, when they're an adult, like, If an adult were to hit me at this age, that would be considered abuse. Yeah. So why should that be different if a parent hits, like, full on hits their child at a very young age? That's my thought on that. Now, I think things like a light tap or a flick, something that they know is unpleasant, but is not painful.

Yeah. And does not come from a place of anger. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's my thought. No, yeah. I think that makes sense.

And he kind of makes the case at the very end of the chapter where he's like, hey, there's a whole range of physical force. So, you know, just like giving a mild physical like flick or tap or, you know, hey, stop that. You know, is that kind of physical restraint or punishment is not the same as like beating your kid. Obviously, that's unacceptable. And I do think that on the other side of the gentle parenting, you have that kind of parent. And not necessarily out of like abusive reasons. they're just doing what they always thought, like, what they were taught to do. Even people who are abuse victims, like, think they deserve it, because that's what they've been taught that love is supposed to look like.

And that's really scary. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely something to be mindful about. Yeah. Anyhow, it didn't mean to make the conversation too dark, but I do appreciate Peterson's take on this. Yeah, and it is a really valid question to ask, like, how far should corporal punishment be able to go? Yeah.

And, I mean, he talks in some instances of, like, it's not. not corporeal punishment, but like having to physically restrain a kid that's like running around everywhere, like, always like trying to get out of bed. He describes having to hold the, the child down in the bed to prevent him from like running around. Yeah. Because the parents had told that kid, he was babysitting this kid. The parents had told the kid, like, oh, it's, the kid had always been escaping out of bed. And the parents were like, oh, yeah, we'll just like put on TV for him. It's just what he always does. So they validated that behavior. And so it got to the point where, Peterson, when he was babysitting, had to just, like, physically, like, hold the kid down and be like, no, you're going to stay in bed, actually.

So I think, like, in that case, if it's like you have to physically stop a child from doing something that's, like, not appropriate or, um, disrespectful in that case, because he's breaking a rule, um, you know, I think that's fine. That's not abusive. No, I agree. Totally agree. Um, now, moving on from the topic of the children, um, we talked about how, um, this also kind of applies to how you govern yourself. Because as you mentioned earlier, neither of us has children. So I think that we can really take, as young people, take this advice and apply it to ourselves. Our inner children. Our inner children. I'm not sure if I subscribe to that philosophy, but I do think that is an interesting concept.

So you have to be able to say no to yourself. You have to be able to an extent punish yourself if I don't get, this paper done, I'm just not going to hang out with my friends later because I need to have some discipline and I have to be able to sacrifice certain things. I mean, that's why, you know, fasting isn't like punishment, but it is a denying of yourself. And you have to be able to deny yourself in order to attain higher goods. And I think you can also reward yourself alternatively. Positive reinforcement is what Peterson talks about a lot is if you're doing something good, like being able to reward yourself. So like I got all my homework done in these past two hours. I'm

going to go for a walk with one of my friends or I'm going to go get some coffee, something like that. And I think that could even relate to rule three. Treat yourself like some, no, is it rule two? Treat yourself like, let's quickly. A rule. A rule that we did read. Yeah. And I think that even relates to rule two, which is treat yourself like someone you're responsible for helping. In which case, you're literally supposed to do the thought experiment. imagine that you are taking care of yourself and then imagine what's good for you and what's bad for you and stop like mentally abusing yourself every time that you do something that you feel like falls short of what you wanted to achieve. So I think that that is interesting like kind of, you know, treating yourself like

someone you're responsible for helping and then thinking of that in the terms of like self-discipline. But then also self-validation, not excessively, but when you do something right, thinking, hey, you know, acknowledging that to yourself. This is something that you should do more of. Yeah. I agree. I agree. You're listening to The Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm your host, Adriana Azarian. And I'm your co-host, Erica Kaiva. Thank you for joining us today as we talk about Rule 5 of Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life, which is, Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them. Right now we're going to go back to our discussion on children and talk about the effects that neglect have on children.

So circling back to children rather than thinking about how we apply these principles to ourselves, something that Jordan Peterson mentions is the very toxic effects of neglect on children and how failure to discipline often results in a form of neglect. And what he says is children can be damaged as much or more by a lack of incisive attention as they are by abuse, mental or physical. This is damaged by omission rather than commission, but it is no less severe and long-lasting. Children are damaged when their, quote-unquote, mercifully inattentive parents fail to make them sharp and observant and awake, and leave them instead in an unconscious and undifferentiated state. Children are damaged when those who are charged with their care, afraid of any conflict or upset,

no longer dare to correct them and leave them without any guidance. And so that was something we're talking about earlier where part of the purpose of parenting is to make your child, you know, ready to engage with the world. But then something else that Jordan Peterson talks about is how a person who's not disciplining their child, if the child's misbehaving all the time, they become resentful towards that child,

and then they don't affirm good behavior. So the example he gives is really sad. It's like maybe the kid makes a really cute picture and they run up and show the parents. And the parents are just kind of cold towards them or just like looking at their phone or something like that. And yeah, it just would be so sad because, you know, it's not the kid's fault

that they're not being disciplined and that you're suddenly resentful. I mean, like you're the parent, you know? Like, you're in charge. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he also makes the point that, you know,

if you don't discipline your kids, someone else is going to, and it's going to be a lot worse. And so if you think that you're being merciful by not, disciplining your kid, like you are setting them up for a rude awakening. I remember when I was learning to drive, I was not a little kid. When I was learning to drive, my dad would tell me, like, I am telling you this now, or like I am, you know, raising my voice at you now. I was not a good driver. He said, the reason I'm raising my voice at you now is because if it's not me one day, it's going to be a cop or someone

else and it's going to be much worse. And that has stuck with me since. Now, am I a good driver now? Debatable. However, I have never been pulled over and I have never hit anyone or gotten into any confrontations in part because my dad taught me how to drive. And part because, so. Kudos to Mr. Azarian.

Thanks dad for teaching me how to drive. I appreciate it. Erica, do you have any closing thoughts on how you're going to discipline your kids now? Yeah, it's definitely left me with a lot to think about, but I think that it's just a good principle to bear in mind, just paying attention. I think I've realized that, I don't know, I realize some of my own misconceptions about parenting. I do not pretend to know better than any actual parent out there in the world for the record, but I do think, that part of me tends a bit more towards the gentle parenting side just because I know that I was really sensitive as a kid and I think part of me like can understand why parents would choose that

option if they don't want to upset their kids or they don't you know want their kids to grow up like resentful towards them I get that I don't resent my parents I love them very much um but I understand some people do you know grow up and they resent their parents because of this sort of thing but I will also say that Peterson has opened my eyes to I mean it is the role of a parent to discipline a child and a child sometimes needs to have a firm voice or um you know just to be able to fear you to a healthy degree yeah not to be afraid of you but to you know understand the consequences of their decisions their decisions not the consequences of your emotions yeah you know oh yeah so true um so I think he does a good job. I think he could have been more clear in stating that and he did he did touch on it. I think he should have been more clear on that. But with that understanding of it, I definitely have more appreciation for the kind of parenting that he recommends. Yeah. And something that I really appreciated is him setting up the big picture context of parenting, the goal of which is to create adult children who can

function in society. And so once you have that big picture goal in mind, then I think every single action matters. And so it makes you think more carefully about like, you know, no, I'm not going to let my child throw a tantrum in public. Like, it's not the nice thing for me to do to just, you know, let that happen. So I think that that's something that I'm going to bear in mind down the road. And I am really happy that we got to read this chapter and think about it, even though it's not immediately applicable right now.

Yes. Yes. Wonderful. Well, thank you all for joining us on this episode of The Healing Hour. we'll see you next week. Same place, same time. I am your host, Adriana Azarian. And I'm your co-host, Erica Kaiva.

And we will see you next week. Next week, to talk about Rule 6, set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world.