WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - The Healing Hour: Make Friends with People Who Want the Best for You

Episode Date: September 21, 2024

Today, Adriana and Erika discuss Rule Three of Jordan Peterson's Twelve Rules for Life: Make Friends With People Who Want the Best for You. They ponder what makes a friendship constructive or destructive, as well as how important it is to hold one another accountable to always strive for better.

Hello and welcome to the Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale, where we bring you your weekly dose of healing. I'm your host, Adriana Azarian. And I'm your co-host, Erica Kaiva. And we are here, as we are every week, to help you become your happiest, healthiest, fullest self. Erica, we've got a good episode lined up today. We are so excited to talk about this. We're still making our way through Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life. And today, we are bringing you rule three.

Not rule one. Not rule two. Rule three. And what is rule three, Erica? Make friends with people who want the best for you. I never would have thought to do this. Okay. Big shocker.

But actually, I'm curious, before you read the chapter, what was your gut instinct when you first heard like the commandment, I guess? Like, what did you think of it? Were you like, okay, yeah, this makes sense? Or were you like, this feels a little bit off to be thinking about friendship in this way? Well, I think I was not expecting it to be the next chapter because the first two chapters, I think, are very individual focused and, you know, what you can do for yourself. Like the second chapter is, you know, treat yourself as someone you would help.

And what's the first one again? Stand up straight with your shoulders back. Right. So I wasn't expecting this one. But I think that it's important to, I thought it was really interesting how he starts with the individual and then moves to the community. Yeah. And how you really could only be fully alive when you have the right community.

So as surprised as I was, I was also, it made sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. I know, I've heard other people express this, but when I first heard this rule, I was like, something in me doesn't like that. Like, that was my gut instinct. Because, you know, I have like a manual Kant in my brain, and it's like, well, you shouldn't ever use people. So it's like, oh, well, if you're only selecting, like, these people that want the best for me,

then it's like, well, I don't want to leave anybody behind. Like, that's like the first instinct, I feel like, for me and for a lot of people. But as I discovered, reading the chapter, there's more to it than that. And it's actually like a really good thing to, I guess, think wisely about your friendships so that you're both building each other up. Yes. And before we get to that, let's talk about how we built ourselves up this week, Erica. Let's do it.

You go first. Okay. So actually, my building up activity, happened this morning. My sister is on campus this year. I'm very excited about that. Shout out to Sophia. Yes. She's amazing. And we got coffee together this morning. And we went to pennies. Nice. Nice. Nice. Greatest place on earth. What did you order? I got it. Actually, we both got cafe lattes, which is like really boring, I guess. But I got a hot one and she got an iced one. And we just sat outside and drank our coffee in the sun. I guess what I'm thinking with that is

as my healing activity is that I think a lot of the times in the every day we can get bogged down in a to-do list. Like, I have to get this reading done and I have to prep for this essay and I have to do this and I have to do that. And this is my schedule. But just like having a breather in there where you're like, I'm going to spend time with somebody that I really love. And that's all I'm going to think about in that moment. Like you just feel so much better afterwards. And then it's like you remember like, yeah, this is what life is really about. Yeah.

Other stuff is important too, but this is the most important. So true. That was my little realization of the week. How about you? So I went to two Trader Joe's this week. Yes. Now, most people only go to one Trader Joe's per week or per day. Or per month.

Or whatever. Per day. But in Hillsdale, we don't have any Trader Joe's anywhere nearby. The closest one is new. It's in Lansing. So it's about an hour and 40 minutes away, give or take. And then there's also one in Fort Wayne. I went there last Friday.

But anyhow, I got to go to two different Trader Joe's. And it was really good because I got all. all the fall goodies, and now I have a bunch of cookies in my room. She actually got me a present from Trader Joe's, which I was really touched by. I now have Go-No, you're going to say? Go-Too-Jing. Yes. And we're going to make stir-fry, and we will be very happy.

So stay tuned for next week. We talk about that. Yes. But what else did you buy? I also got those chocolate cat cookies, and then this is the best thing. I got the pretzel slims, the ones that have, like, the Jojo's, cookies and cream on them. so it's really good and really satisfying to my sweet too because it's also pretty feeling so like after one or two

you're like okay like I'm done you know I like more rich desserts like that where you don't have to eat so much to feel full I like yeah chocolatey things so it was really good but yes yes now we must discuss what it truly means to surround yourself with people who support you yes so Jordan Peterson

opens up this chapter with a discussion of what his hometown was like growing up. And it was pretty bleak. And you say, Adri. It was depressing. Yeah. Sorry, Jordan. Yeah.

And I mean, he like admits as much in the story. And he talks about, you know, there wasn't really a lot to do for teens. So they would go to these parties and people were all getting drunk. And, you know, it just wasn't great. And they were the people that never really intended to leave that lifestyle. And there were the people that did. He was one of them. And he says that he knew from a very young age that he wanted to get out of his hometown.

So I kind of, I mean, appreciate the context that he sets there with like people that didn't want to get out of the town. It wasn't necessarily like a rich, poor thing. Or it's like, oh, some people have the means to get out and some people don't. It was very much like what they wanted for their lives. It's like, do you want to stay stuck in, you know, this atmosphere where we're not really going anywhere, but we're also not seeking anything. And so it doesn't require anything of us.

or are we going to really push ourselves to get out? Yeah. But then Jordan Peterson describes moving to college and making a new group of friends there and everybody's kind of striving upward and they're all trying to achieve their own thing. And he kind of talks about this experience of being in a totally new environment,

which is very different from what he grew up in. And he says, when you move, everything is up in the air, at least for a while. It's stressful, but in the chaos, there are new possibilities. People, including you, can't hem you in with their old notion. You get shaken out of your ruts. You can make new, better ruts with people aiming at better things. I thought this was just a natural development.

I thought that every person who moved would have and want the same Phoenix-like experience. But that wasn't always the case. And then he goes on to talk about somebody for whom it wasn't the case. But I thought maybe we could stay on that and talk about the experience of like, you know, going to a new place and encountering new possibilities. Yeah. I think we both grew a lot in our... time in D.C. together. And I think it was because we had a whole new setting of people,

like, yes, there were a lot of people from Hillsdale, which was amazing. But we weren't in that same context of, you know, the small campus. Like we were there for professional reasons, not so much educational. Yeah. Of course, there's an element of the educational still. But I think being that different context brought out different aspects of all of our personalities and made us bond with people that we wouldn't, that we don't normally talk to. We just don't travel in the same circles with. Right. Here at Hillsdale. We have the people that we met through certain clubs and that we know better than others. And then there's people that we kind of know by, we knew by sight.

But, you know, we hadn't gotten the chance to interact as much because, like, we're in different clubs or stuff like that. Right. But then it's like all the Hillsdale people are kind of like in one place. So, you know, you see each other more. And so you get to have conversations and kind of get to know people better in a way that you wouldn't otherwise have. Right. And then also just being surrounded by non-Hillsdale people. My intern friends that we hung out with a lot.

Yeah. Shout out to all of them. We miss you. They were also very different from the kinds of people at Hillsdale. I mean, there were definitely a lot. I think it brought out different more kind of spontaneous sides of us instead of the more serious academic, you know, typical Hillsdale culture. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that relates to the reason why, obviously, like being in a different city is going to bring out different parts of you is because, you know, people don't already have those notions about you. You're in different. You don't have to feel, like it's exactly what he said. don't have to feel hemmed in by like a way that you were existing in a certain place. Like you can kind of explore new sides of your personality like you said. And not that I think either one of us necessarily feel super hemmed in. No. Like who we are at Hillsdale. But still, it's like,

I think wherever you are in your life, like maybe you feel constrained by like some aspects of the way that you act or exist and you're like, well, what if I was different? And then you get the chance to be different and it's cool. Right. Like I think, you know, being at a Hillsdale event in D.C., you could just go up to someone that you vaguely recognize and be like, hey, you know, I'm Adriana. I see you around campus all the time. Like, I'd like to introduce myself and get to know you. And that's not weird. But like, if I was in the library, I went to that same person, I'd be like, hi, I see you around all the time and I want to meet you.

I mean, it would, I don't know. It's safe to say it's weird, but it would just wouldn't, it would be a very different thing. I mean, we get comfortable. I feel like at in one environment for a long period of time. Yeah. And so we kind of lose that sense of, like, I remember when I was a freshman, I was like always introducing myself to people. But now I'm like, yeah, I would just like sit down. And I love when freshmen do this to me now because I like remember what it was like,

but I would just like sit down with people that I didn't know at lunch and be like, hi, I'm Erica. But then you come to like, you get to know people and you're like, okay, I know like all these people and like now I'm going to go sit with the people that I know. And that's kind of like normal and part of the process. Totally. But it's kind of awesome to be like shaken up a little bit and like be in a new situation and think like, oh, you know, like we're going to make some new friends and get to know some new

people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I think in a city setting everyone's new, like in a social event, everyone's not necessarily going to be close already. Everyone's there to meet people. And to get to know other people. Yeah. And so you're all embracing the awkwardness of it and not being in your comfort zone. So that helps with with confidence and kind of getting out of your shell a bit too. Definitely. Yeah. And so Jordan Peterson describes kind of like that. awesome moment that a lot of us get to experience. But it's kind of something that you choose for yourself. And as he goes on to describe, he is in this better place in his life. And then he invites his friend to his apartment that he's sharing with his sister. And the friend brings a friend

and they're both like completely stoned and like totally out of it. And he describes the friend looking upwards and saying, my particles are scattered all over the ceiling. You know, like that's all he can manage to say like he's so gone. Um, and then what particles is what I want to know. Yeah, I'm like, what? What? What? Um, but it is quite sad though and in a sense because I mean, like they both had the opportunity to leave, but this friend had chosen to stay in kind of spiral. So then later on, after this encounter with Ed, he describes this letter that Ed's cousin, Chris, who he was also friends with sent him before his suicide, which is awful.

but he says, I had friends before, anyone with enough self-contempt that they could forgive me mine, which is a really bleak view of friendship. I mean, yeah, it is pretty bleak. And I think that it goes to show you that, like, yes, we did a lot of talking in the first two chapters about, you know, self-esteem and how you have to believe in yourself. But you also need other people to help you do that and to speak worth into you. And I think from what it sounds like, this person did not have that. Yeah. So I think my point is that surrounding yourself with the right people not only like helps you, you know, have good habits and then lead a healthy life. It's also people who will like speak to you of your worth and not just because, you know, you're there and you're accessible. Yeah. No. And it's definitely, I mean, this whole chapter is about the importance of like the people that you surround yourself with and like the effect of that on, you know, what you believe about yourself.

and what you go on to strive for. But then it's also like, are you willing to accept help or to accept the call to be better from good friends? Because he says later that sometimes when people have a low opinion of their own worth or perhaps when they refuse responsibility for their lives, they choose a new acquaintance of precisely the type who proved troublesome in the past. Such people don't believe that they deserve better so they don't go looking for it. Or perhaps they don't want the trouble of better.

I guess the point that kind of struck me was that like it kind of relates to the last chapter about how you view yourself. Like if you view yourself as someone you're responsible for helping and you wouldn't advise, you know, pursuing a friendship with somebody who's tempting you to do bad things or like always dragging down and like shaming you for trying to achieve something. You know, you wouldn't advise that friendship for someone else. But if you really have a lot of self-contempt, then you're like, oh, maybe I'll accept that for myself because I don't deserve any better. And you see this in relationships all the time With women who have low self-esteem They get preyed on all the time Because guys notice this

They know that they're always going to come back to them Or that this is what they associate Because they've had like past relationships Whether they're being in family Or just like previous romantic relationships And they just go back to guys like that And I think And the same is also true vice versa

I mean guys also have this problem too It's more common I think for women But it does show you that If you've like experience Your whole life you've experienced friendship and love in a way that is degrading. You're always going to experience. So you have to from the beginning as, you know, or at least, you know, realize this and then surround yourself with the people who will build you up because it does spiral. And it did in this guy's case too.

Yeah, exactly. It really comes down to like you get what you put up with. Like I think we can think about it in a way like, oh, what do you mean? Like make friends with people who you want the best for you. Like, what about people who are struggling? No, it's not about that. It's about somebody who's treating you badly or somebody who's like trying to like stop you from you know doing better like whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship it's like no yeah you know like so then jordan peterson gets into this point that i think is kind of interesting and i think that this one is probably like can be a big temptation for people this he says that people choose friends who aren't good for them for other reasons too sometimes it's because they want to rescue someone this is more typical of young

people, although the impetus still exists among older folks who are too agreeable or have remained naive or who are willfully blind. Someone might object it is only right to see the best in people. The highest virtue is the desire to help. I mean, I think that it can, that can be something that's tricky to wrestle with because I think that the desire to help people is real. But basically what Peterson goes on to talk about in this section is that someone might be taking advantage of your desire to help. And he also kind of urges us to actually. And he also kind of urges us to actually. actually look at our own souls and what our motivations are because having a savior complex and like wanting to be someone's friend because of that, that's not virtue and that's not love of the other person either. Yeah. You know? So where do we draw the line? Because like I still think good faith is important. So there's a really beautiful, and brothers Karamazov. There's a really beautiful part. I haven't read it in a long time. So I might be getting some details wrong. But when I think it's Alyosha is talking to the character Katarina and Katarina. is like claims to be in love with this one man and Alyosha is like

Alyosha tells her like do you love him or do you want to be his savior do you want to fix him because you can't you can't be his savior and and yes it is a very fine line to walk because as friends right the point of this whole chapter is people who will support you like it is your job to help better your friends but at the same time if your friends do not want to be bettered. If they do not want to help themselves or be receptive to your help, I think that's the fine line that Jordan Peterson really is trying to lay out here, is that it is good to help people, but you also cannot understand yourself as their savior.

Exactly. Yeah, it kind of reminded me of this conversation I had all the way back in high school, where a friend and I were kind of discussing the value of the phrase, oh, cut toxic people out of your life, you know, which I think can get overused sometimes. But she thought that that was a really selfish thing. And like, to her credit, she was like, well, you know, like who's going to be their friend? You know, it's really bad for someone to be lonely. And that's true. But I, the way I responded to that was, well, does that person want your friendship? Or are they just using you to feel better about themselves? And then also, you don't have infinite time. God does, but you don't. You know, so it's like

someone else might be like really lonely and everybody needs friendship. So who are you going to give your time to. If somebody who is in a bad place is always asking you for money, but they're not using it for the right things, it's like, well, where else could your money be going? It's like not necessarily like hoarding the resources for you. It's like, where are you, how are you going to give to the people that need it? And to the people who are going to use what you give them to make themselves better and not to make themselves worse. That's a really good point, Erica. Like all that emotional energy that you're wasting on someone could be used to actually help someone else. Exactly. Oh my goodness. That's really good.

Thank you. That is really good. High school conversations. They hit different, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay, for example, we have a friend who will be nameless, but she has, for the past few years, subsisted off of a diet of Mountain Dew and sweets. And she has recently decided that she wants to start eating healthier and taking care of herself and going for walks.

And, you know, this was something that I really tried to encourage in her. like, you know, I, you know, but it made it very clear this is her choice. And then finally, like this year, she said, I want to start doing this. And so, you know, I went to the grocery store with her. I go for walks with her. But at the end of the day, it was her choice to make that. You know, like, before maybe, like I couldn't have really helped her. But now that she really is open to it. Like, I'm more than happy to do that. Yeah. And it's not like we only started being her friend. No, no, no. No, but yeah, no, it's like, that's a good point. It's like you always want the best for someone. But you can't force the best. But you can't force the best. But you can't force the best. best onto them. Right. You know? Right. And it's like one thing to really love Mountain Dew. And it's another thing to like be self-destructing your life. Yeah. And she would also agree that her life was not healthy. Like I'm not, yeah, yeah. We're not putting her down by any way. We actually, we really love her. We really adore her. And yeah, it was more of like a little teasy thing. Anyhow. Yeah. So to close out the chapter, Jordan Peterson gives us this beautiful paragraph. If you surround yourself with people who support your upward aim, they will not tolerate

your cynicism and destructiveness. They will instead encourage you when you do good for yourself and others and punish you carefully when you do not. This will help bolster your resolve to do what you should do in the most appropriate and careful manner. And that's just so true, you know? It's just like that's what it means to make friends with people who want the best for you. Because it's not just like doing good for yourself. It's also like if you become all that you could be, then you're good for the rest of the world, you know? And good friends will call you out when you're destructive of yourself or other people. Yeah. And they will be there for you when you're trying to better yourself or do something good for the world. Erica, I think you're really good at this too. Oh, thank you. I think during our time

in D.C., there were a lot of times when I was like, Erica, what if I just did this? And you would be like, let's think about this for a second. No, like, we would have like serious conversations. And like, in a very charitable way, you would call me out and, like, have me rethink things. And I think I I probably could have said or done some really stupid things if you hadn't called me out and like called me to be better and higher than that. So it's what I'm here for. It's what she's here for. She's my mentor. And in the Congress, I've always felt the same about you.

Oh my gosh. You know, and you always are so good at building other people up and taking a genuine vested interest in your well-being like you did with our one friend. You just consistently show up for people, you know, and you really support them when they're like, I want to make a positive change in my life. And that really means a lot to me. and I know it means a lot to all of our friends. Don't make me cry on air. Please, that's the sweetest thing ever. Thank you, Erica.

Thank you, Adriana. No, no, thank you. That's so sweet. I really treasure our friendship. I got a box of tissues right here. Yay. Well, thank you so much for joining us this week. We had a great conversation, I think.

Absolutely. And get hyped for next week. Rule four is, compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today. Very, very relevant in our day and age. I love this topic. Yes, we too.

Great discussion to follow next week. So we will catch you then. You've been listening to The Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. With your host, Adriana Azarian. And your co-host, Erica Kaiba, signing off.