WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - The Healing Hour: Treat Yourself Like Someone You Are Responsible for Helping

Episode Date: September 14, 2024

Adriana and Erika are joined by the lovely Annika Monson to discuss Rule Two of Jordan Peterson's Twelve Rules for Life: Treat Yourself Like Someone You Are Responsible for Helping. They discuss the importance of balancing chaos and order in life, as well as some practical ways to think about approaching that.

Hello and welcome to The Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale, where we bring you your weekly dose of healing. I'm your host, Adriana Azarian. And I'm your co-host, Erica Kaiba. And we are here to help you become your happiest, healthiest, fullest self. And we have a very special guest with us today in discussing the second rule in Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life, the lovely Miss Onica Munson. Hi, I'm very excited to be on the podcast today. Anika, we are so excited to have you today. I'm so excited for the conversation that we're going to have, and I think we're going to, there's definitely a lot of material.

And I look forward to seeing what you guys have to say about it. So today is the second episode in our series on Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life. And what is the second rule, Erica? It is treat yourself as if you were someone you were responsible for helping. And that's something that we touched on at the very end of the last episode, if you recall. But first, we're going to talk about this week's healing adventure. Yeah, and something that Adriana and I have recently talked about, a practice that we've both picked up is making a habit of reading the scriptures every day. Yeah, Erica and I were talking earlier about how there is a tendency to when you're reading the scriptures, when you're hearing the scriptures, to just be so used to it that you don't let it sit with you and you don't absorb it or meditate on it.

and so it's good, I think, to make a practice of reading it and trying to learn something new through it every time you read it. So Lexio Divina, for example, it's a Catholic practice. Anyone can pick it up. But basically, it's the idea that you're meditating on scripture. So you're reading it a few times, kind of putting yourself in the scene and really absorbing it that way and trying to hear what God is telling you through that, like whether it be a word or a verse in the passage. and I think it's really helpful for not taking scripture for granted. Definitely.

Yeah, something that I like with Lexio-Divina is the first time that I'll go through it, I'll think about it in the historical context, not necessarily with what viewpoints I'm bringing as somebody living in the 21st century, but how would a first-century Jew experience this text? And then the next time I read it with that historical context in mind, trying to think about, okay, how are these eternal truth? still true in our 21st century. So that's something that I think has been interesting to think about recently.

Yes. And also it's this idea that scripture is also like speaking to you personally, too. So it's like, what is the Lord? Even though he said this 2,000 years ago, what's he telling you today? And how can you apply this to your life? Do you have any thoughts on this? Well, I'm a Protestant. So this is, I guess the concept is not needed me, but the practice is.

I think that's very interesting reading it multiple times. That's definitely something that I've practiced as well. If I really want to get into a passage, I normally take like a double spaced page and you read it. And then you read it again, you underline like repeating words and everything. So you're really kind of like diving into it. But I really, I like that concept. That's great. Thank you.

It's Protestant approved, y'all. Yes. Yes. So, okay. Now that we have our little ecumenical reunion established, let's get right into the second rule for life. Treat yourself as if you were someone, you were responsible for helping. So I wanted to ask you guys what were the main points that you took away from the chapter? Like what were the most interesting ideas that he puts out or what do you think is most relevant?

I think something that I found super interesting was that Peterson is like a cat. for the chaos that we all experience throughout the chapter. I think something that at least I tend into, and I feel like it's kind of like a tendency within the classical like Hillsdale world or whatever, is like, oh, well, order is like supreme and we can kind of tend to ignore chaos to an extent or really like what it means for the human life because we're just looking at pursuing order. So I thought it was super interesting that Jordan Peterson was also bringing like chaos into the full picture of the human life and fully accounting for it and fully, I guess, recognizing the greatness and also the terribleness of just this void of freedom.

So yeah. I think something that he points out that I think is worth meditating on is, you know, chaos. I don't think life is beautiful unless there's some chaos to it, right? Because there's always, chaos is always going to exist in our fallen world. and the beauty of it is that it can be redeemed, right? Like there was no chaos before the fall, right? Everything was perfect. But now we experience it, but the Lord has entered into the chaos to redeem it.

And so I think Jordan Peterson doesn't say this, but I think that it is implied that, like, there's always going to be chaos, but you have to kind of balance it out in a way. Like, you have to bring order into that chaos. It is interesting how he kind of ties us back to the fall of man and how this is, you know, this is not a new problem. This is all of humanity's struggle is trying to balance, try to balance out the chaos and the order.

So with that being said, something that Dr. Peterson talks a lot about in his lectures, this idea comes up where he says where you want to be is not necessarily like in order where you're secure, but you clearly don't want to be completely in chaos because then you have no idea where you're going. I remember he said in one of his talks I saw online that you want to be on the borderline between order and chaos. and he alludes to this in the book as well. And the way he explains it is that order is not enough. You can't just be stable and secure and unchanging because there are still vital and important new things to be learned. Nonetheless, chaos can be too much. You can't long tolerate being swamped and overwhelmed

beyond your capacity to cope while you are learning what you still need to know. Thus, you need to place one foot in what you have mastered and understood and the other in what you are currently exploring and mastering. Then you have positioned yourself where the terror of existence is under control and you are secure but where you are also alert and engaged. That is where there is something new to master

and some way that you can be improved. That is where meaning is to be found. And that's the quote that I was thinking of when you were talking about how order isn't enough, you also need chaos in your life. So you kind of have to be on the borderline between the two of them, and that's where you find meaning and purpose.

So I was kind of wondering what you guys think for how that can practically be achieved. Because I think there's a lot of truth to it, but as the text stands now, I think it's very abstract. So thoughts on that. I think as college students were at a point of chaos.

Not only because of feast on Thursdays, but because you don't really know what's coming next in your life, right? Like, nothing is guaranteed, nothing is promised. But I think where is the adventure if it's just all planned out and all ordered? You know what I'm saying?

Where is the beauty in that? I think it's good to lean into the chaos. And by the way, when I say chaos, when I talk about the fallen world and the post-fallen world, I'm not just saying, like, sin. I just mean, like, the uncertainty of things, too. And I think it's okay to lean into the chaos and to be okay with the fact that you cannot control some things. But, like, you have the power within that chaos to find freedom, like, to bring order and, like, through that order, you have freedom. And if we're just going to take a moment to define terms as far as chaos and order, the way Peterson talks about them is that he says,

Chaos and Order are two of the most fundamental elements of lived experience, two of the most basic subdivisions of being itself. But they're not things or objects, and they're not experienced as such. Things or objects are part of the objective world. They're inanimate, spiritless, they're dead. This is not true of Chaos and Order. Those are perceived, experienced, and understood, to the degree that they are understood at all as personalities. And that is just as true of the perceptions, experiences, and understanding of modern people as their ancient forebearers. It's just that moderners don't notice.

He says that Order the Known appears symbolically associated with masculinity, as illustrated in the aforementioned Yang of the Taoistying Yang symbol. Okay, I think this is sexist. Why? He had a point there. Is it because we're chaotic? I don't know, I'm kidding. Keep going.

This is perhaps because the primary hierarchical structure of human society is masculine as it is among most animals, including the chimpanzees who are our closest genetic and arguably behavioral match. It is because men are and throughout history have been the builders of towns and cities, the engineers, stone masons, bricklayers, and lumberjacks, the operators of heaven machinery. Order is God the Father, the Eternal Judge, ledger keeper, and dispenser of rewards and punishments. And then if we switch into what he has to say about chaos, he says, chaos the unknown, is symbolically associated with the feminine.

This is partly because all the things we have come to know where we're born, originally, of the unknown. just as all beings we encounter were born of mothers. Chaos is mater, origin, source, mother, materia, the substance from which all things are made. It is also what matters or what is the matter, the very subject matter of thought and communication. In its positive guise, chaos is possibility itself, the source of ideas, the mysterious realm of gestation and birth.

As a negative force, it's the impenetrable darkness of a cave, and the accident by the side of the road. I guess thinking as a college student walking that line between order and chaos, I think can be as simple or as complex as actually being willing to take into account new ideas and new philosophies. I think it's very easy when you're confronted with something that makes you uncomfortable, especially, you know, with being a college student, like some reading. some thinker who makes you feel uncomfortable, just to jump back into what you know and just push that uncomfortable thought or idea to the side. And I think that that would be a rejection of the chaos, just keeping both feet firmly planted in order.

So I think a good practical way to just be right on that line is to try to make yourself feel more comfortable with the gray area. where there is no, there is no simple right or simple wrong, and the philosophy that you've been living your life with, you're going to allow that to maybe be molded or changed in a certain way instead of just keeping it in this very rigid, this is what is, this is how I live. And I think that's very important for the stage of life that we're in now, because we're constantly encountering new ideas, new people. And it is a big time of growth for us,

but only if we choose to make it so. If I can ask, what was an experience that you had, maybe with like a philosopher or an academic idea that made you uncomfortable, but then you were able to kind of encounter that chaos and bring it into the order of your life? So something recently, has been my philosophy of education class.

So I was classically educated. I'm very much in that mindset, and we just read John Dewey's education and experience. I think that's the title. Anyway, in it, he's very much talking about having to, like, account for the individual child and the individual child's growth. And he's not so much reliant on, like,

these are the great books these this is the this is what we have to study every child has to study this because it's just it's just the way it has to be that's the order right um he's leaning a lot more into i guess the chaos side like every child is coming with a different context um they've matured to a different point um and so it isn't always the best thing to do just to have like a rich just like a rigid group of books and be like well this is what we're reading and I don't care if this impacts who is an individual or not because this is supposed to be like correct for everyone and that is something that I never really wanted to consider before like the problem of the individual within I guess tradition like where can each individual fit when it seems like they've

had like an upbringing or they're like matured to a level where it doesn't seem like they should fit in where they are. So that's been something I've been reflecting on a lot lately, which has been kind of changing the way I've been thinking about education, which I feel like kind of has like plunged me into chaos. Like I'm kind of, you know, wondering. I'm now thinking about a lot of things I would not have thought of before. And that's something really interesting because it's clearly something that's really like a meaningful activity in your life to think about these ideas.

And yet it's because of a problem that we have, like that Dewey points out in the educational system that then you have to deal with if you're pursuing teaching. And I call that helping yourself. Yes. Yes. So, okay, I learned a very interesting piece of advice from the Instagram. Yes, same credibility as Jordan Peterson. Great Lord, instant grab. So there was, it was a post, and it was like a video.

And it was this girl, and she was saying, you know, you've been taught to treat yourself as the main character in your story. You are not the main character. You are the director of your story. And you need to make a plan and treat yourself as the actor. You were the director and the actor. You have to act according to the plan that you made. So if you act a certain way over time,

you'll actually become that person that you planned out for yourself to be. So the advice that she gave and the advice that another influencer I found gave was like make a list or a vision board of the person that you want to be and like what you want to embrace in your life and the habits you want and like check in with that regularly and see if you're meeting that and just keep trying to act like this person that you've, like, imagined for yourself to be. And eventually, you'll catch on to that. And that is who you will become.

And so I think that's a really good example of leaning into the chaos and the order because, yes, there's so much that's not in your control, but there is so much that is in your control. And you have to treat yourself, like, as the director and the actor, you are the person who you are helping. Exactly. Yeah. If you're just... Oh, I was just going to say, this is why I caught Audraina making a vision board earlier last week.

I had no idea where that came from. But now I do. That's exactly what it was. I was making a PowerPoint. It's all pink and it's really cute. And it has like habits I want to have, characteristics I want to be remembered for. And then like I'm going to add different outfits, you know, things like that, like clothes I want to wear, things that I need to buy. Like what I want my future to look like, like where I want to live, what kind of job I want to have, what kind of person.

and all together that I just want to be. If you're just tuning in, you're listening to The Healing Hour on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM with your host. Adriana Azarian and your co-host. Erica Kaiva and with our very special guest, our friend, Onika Munson.

And we're talking about Jordan Peterson's second rule for life. And what we're specifically touching on right now is deciding the type of person you want to be and what matters in your life and then making a plan to pursue that. Like, you know, figuring out what your purpose is is probably the most fundamental way that you can help yourself. And I kind of wanted to ask you, because Adriana, you just mentioned building a vision board and deciding what you want your life to look like in the future and what you want your basically legacy to be.

How do you decide what's important for you? Okay. Obviously, the end is to be holy. It's to become like God into the person that God has created me to be. and to express that with a certain kind of dignity in the way that I relate to other people and the way that I present myself in the way that like my prayer life, my spiritual habits and how that's going to inform how I treat myself mentally, how I treat myself physically, emotionally, dentally, we can't forget the dental health.

Because at the end of the day, everything that's given to you is a gift meant to be given back to the Lord. and so I think the point of like my vision board and my plan for life is to try to direct the way that I live on a daily basis aimed towards that ultimate goal. I mean, that's the hope, right? Like I'm not perfect at this by any means. But I think that that's a really good aim to have is to be the saint that God created you to be. And that's going to look different for everyone because we are all individuals with different, you know, likes and dislikes and vices and virtues that we're inclined to. so really just trying to work within that framework of trying to, with the help of God's grace, right, live and build those habits of virtue.

And a vision board is very helpful for that. So there you go. And so I could also turn that question over to you, Anika. Like if you're thinking about the goals that you have, you know, for your life right now or in the near future or in the distant future, what are the criteria that you use when you decide? Like, this is something that's important. This is something I'm going to focus on versus what's. less important.

We're 23, but there's a lot of positives. I think something that Adriana was touching on that I also think is very important is, I guess, preserving your individuality. That has been something I've been working on a lot lately because I think one of my, sorry, let me go back a second. Yes. I think one of the most important things you need to do to see where you want to be in the future is to have a good understanding of where you're at right now, which is another thing

that Peterson talks about, is you have to understand who you are as a person to try and kind of figure out where you want to go. So I have recognized about myself that I have, I think one of my greater vices would be envy, and then that kind of tends towards like a pattern, again, kind of what Peterson was talking about, of kind of like this dislike of self. that leads you to not care for yourself very well. So lately something I've been employing is kind of trying to make the most of like the present moment and who I presently am because I know that where I am and who I am right now is part of somehow this great plan that God has.

So like looking at myself and trying to not feel. envy for other people because that's not who I am. That's not who I'm supposed to be. And I should be trying to make the most of this present moment that God has given me instead of constantly, you know, pulling myself in different directions. So I guess my, my tip for, like, figuring out what's important, I think that's really on an individual basis. You have to figure out who you are, where God wants you and just kind of focus your eyes on that and not be looking to the left and to the right. I've noticed something about Christianity that I think is really mysterious is the fact that the more that you are like Christ, the more that you are yourself. Right? You think that we'd all be the same if we're all imitating Christ. That's not true.

If you want to discover who you are and you are a Christian, imitate Christ and it will become apparent to you who you really are. It reminds me of a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem where he has this line about Christ's shining out. out in 10,000 faces that are not his own, which I think is really amazing if you think about how each person in their individuality was created by God to express Christ. I think there's something really beautiful about that. That's the beauty of Eastern iconography is that every saint has the same face. And you can say, well, that's just the style of art. They all have the same. No, no, they all have the same face because it's the face of Christ. Every icon, the icon of Jesus, of Mary, of all the saints, even the angels have Christ's face. You are meant to. You are meant to

to be Christ, a little Christ, a Christian, a little Christ in the world. So that's pretty cool. And isn't it crazy how Christ incarnate is, he who is order, complete order, entered into our chaos. And in dying, almost like united chaos and order. That's amazing. Wait, that's amazing. Not to say that Christ is chaotic, but like, you know.

No, no, no. I get what you mean, though, because I mean, like, if you conceptualize God as, you know, the force of Supreme Order, which I think it's fair to think about, and that's what Dr. Peterson lays out. And our world is being very chaotic because of the fall. Sin enters the world, and, you know, there's a lot that we can't predict, and there's a lot that goes wrong. And then Jesus entering this chaotic world, not being the chaos, like being from order,

from the father, and then bringing order to our world and giving us access to that. And working with the chaos. And working with the chaos. Yeah, I mean, death is chaotic, right? He suffered the chaos. He went into the underworld, the dark place for like... Yeah, I mean, like literally the greatest light is in the greatest darkness for three days before, like, bringing something out of it.

So that is not a heretic. And so since we're reaching the end of the episode, I thought maybe I would tie this back to like the original text of the rule. because we got into a lot of different subjects, because Dr. Peterson got into a lot of different subjects before he ties it all back. But basically this idea that we have a fundamental purpose in the world. And what we were just talking about now is that we're all made in the image of God to reflect Christ into the world. And if you truly believe that about yourself, then you won't allow your life to fall into disrepair. Then you'll treat yourself as if you were someone you were responsible for helping.

I mean, the problem that he sets out in the beginning is that a huge percentage of people don't take their prescription medications that they really need in order to get better, and they're much more likely to give those to their pets because they're actually a caretaker of their pets. So then the question that Peterson submits is, you know, what if you were the caretaker of yourself? Because there is something good that you were created to offer the world. So it's important to take that seriously. Amen. Amen. Thanks for tuning in to The Healing Hour. this has been a great conversation.

I've really enjoyed this. Tune in next week, same place, same time. We'll be talking about the third rule for life, which is make friends with people who want the best for you. We'd like to thank Anika once more for coming on our show. And wanting the best for us. We love you, Anika. We love you. Oh my gosh, I love you guys too.

So much love in the air as we wrap up this episode. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place. All right. We love you. guys. We love our fans. We want the best for you.

I won't see you next week. Oh, Monica won't see you. I hope that you're healing. Peace. Peace.