WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - The Hillsdale Interview: Amb. Francis Rooney

Episode Date: July 22, 2024

Ambassador Francis Rooney joins WRFH to discuss the latest in Russia-Ukraine War news. Rooney represented Florida’s 19th Congressional District in the United States House of Representatives from 2017 to 2021.  From 2005 to 2008 he served as the United States Ambassador to the Holy See, appointed by President George W. Bush and subsequently wrote a book about diplomacy and the US-Holy See relationship titled The Global Vatican.

This is Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm Gavin Lestrow, and with me today is Ambassador Francis Rooney, a U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See from 2005 to 2008, and also a representative for Florida's 19th congressional district until 2001. We're here today to talk about the latest news in the Russian and Ukrainian War. Ambassador Rooney, thank you so much for taking your time to join us today. And I'm curious to know what do you see as America's goal in continuing its seemingly limitless support of this war? Well, that's a very good question. I think we... need to rethink whatever our goal might have been, given the lack of progress, the lack of any movement towards a diplomatic solution or exit strategy for this thing. And I think the people in the United States are starting to say, wait a minute, when are we going to stop shoveling arms over there and start to see some kind of solution? And I guess a follow up to that, what should the goal be in the long term? Well, first of all, you've got to get a group of countries together to bring some pressure on Zelensky, and that would probably include like Germany, France, UK,

you know, United States, of course, and start to construct some type of framework for ending the conflict. And I don't see how Russia is going to leave Crimea. And so if Russia is not going to leave Crimea, maybe that becomes the bargaining chip to stop hostilities and move on. Gotcha. And kind of following into that, in three years of, fighting the same opponent, what do you think Ukraine and its allies have to learn? And where do you see areas of improvement in the fighting or negotiations? Well, they should have studied the Civil War and the 100 years war. The country with the most resources will almost always ultimately win a war of attrition. And that's basically what we have here. We have tit for tat killing without any

major change in the landscape, no D-D-D or blitzkrieves or any of that kind of stuff. And And Russia's just wearing them down. Do you see us coming to a point where American troops are needed on the ground? I personally don't. After Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't think the American people would put troops anywhere. Gotcha. And the most recent aid package, which sent $61 billion to Ukraine, was recently approved by the House of Representatives.

And I'm curious, what do you see is the potential benefits to the war efforts from this package and maybe the potential disadvantages? The only benefit I can see to continue to shovel armaments towards the Ukraine is to couple it with an opening of a diplomatic exit strategy. And I don't see that happening right now, but we can't just keep shipping the arms over there. And we, for sure, in my opinion, should not send money. Ukraine, before this all started, was one of the most corrupt countries in the world. and that's why Trump held up in those javelins in 2017, I think.

So why give them money that they're just going to pilfer? At least if we send them armaments that are made the United States that there's only one thing they can do with them. Let's shoot Russians. Giving your time as an ambassador to the Holy See during the George W. Bush presidency,

what do you see as the Vatican's role in promoting peace in all this? Well, I think if my old interlocutor, Pope Benedict were around, he would be calling for some type of negotiated settlement like I'm talking about here, with the Vatican having a seat at the table, just like was worked out during a Lebanon war in 2007 when I was serving as ambassador. They called together a big conference in Annapolis.

The Vatican was represented as well, and they came out with a construct that allowed stopping the Lebanon War and ending the conflict with Hezbollah. Do you see any potential benefit for the Vatican taking a side, or do you think they should be strictly diplomatic there? Well, I don't think the Vatican can really be taken too seriously if it picks aside. I think they've got a call for peace and a resolution of the conflict. You know, you saw Pope Francis stumble pretty badly when he came out and obliquely defended Putin's influence.

security based on the expansion of NATO, which was the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever seen a Pope say. And so what do you recommend that he would say instead? And what kind of comments are more helpful coming from that office? Colfrey, a broadly based, NATO-oriented diplomatic solution involving the United States and Western Europe and Russia and being practical about where we are in this thing, that you're not just going to kick Russia entirely out of everything that they've gained. This is Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM.

I'm Gavin Lestrow, and I'm talking with former ambassador in South West Florida Congressman Francis Rooney, weighing in on the conflict in Ukraine. The Ukrainian war has been going on for almost three years at this point. I know the war has kind of taken a backseat in the mainstream to the war in Gaza as that's escalated. But as the two largest wars in the minds of the American people right now, what similarities or differences can we see between these two conflicts? Well, in one sense they're similar in that an aggressor, Hamas and Russia attacked a peaceful nation living next to it. It wasn't doing anything to them. It's also, it's not similar in the sense that the attacked nation, Ukraine, is having trouble defeating the aggressor, whereas I think Israel's making great strides, rooting out Hamas. Is there anything that Ukraine can learn from Israel in making advances there? Well, they might sit back and say,

we wish we could do like Israel, but we're not powerful enough. It might be more interested in getting out of this thing if we started to cut back their money. Do you see any way in which us aiding them financially is helping the war, is prolonging the war and not helping the effort? Oh, it's definitely prolonging the war. The only thing keeping them alive is we keep them alive is we keep. ship them shells and missiles and guns and so that they can stand up to the Russians.

The disheartening fact is the Russians seem to be doing better now. I don't know if all the best Ukrainians have been killed or what. I don't know the answer to why, but Russia's doing better now than they haven't any time since the war started. And I know a lot of people take an attitude to kind of, you know, an apathy or confusion of saying, you know, why does it matter if we help Russia, you know, will we help Ukraine against Russia, let them fight their own war, and what do you have to say to that kind of

attitude of, you know, just stepping away? Well, I generally think it's the right thing to do to oppose Russia and support the Ukraine. We saw some bad lessons happen in pre-World War II and pre-World War I

when aggressors could move without any opposition at all. But I think as this thing's evolved, someone's got to be sitting back saying, where's it going to go? It just can't keep going forever. We've got to come up with some kind of answer here. We either have to take Russia out or we've got to have a settlement. And I don't think the American people are going to support the United States doing anything direct. In one of his press conferences about the aid, the Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky said that the package would, quote,

send the Kremlin a powerful signal that Ukraine will not be the second Afghanistan. You served during the Bush administration during the war in Afghanistan, what's stopping this war from becoming Afghanistan in your mind? Nothing. Zolenski, he's going to go through the weapons and it'll be right back where he was, just like he's done every time. So I think that that's a boastful statement, and it will maybe imply that for a while, but Russia can probably calculate with a good run back out of weapons, as long as Russia can keep the heat on them. You know, if you've got a hundred weapons and you're using 10 a day, 10 days you're done, that kind of thing. With the Biden administration kind of coming to a close in November, what can they do to kind of salvage the reputation that they

have of just kind of throwing money at a dying project? Well, the question of what can the Biden administration do is a very broad question. That could apply to numerous facets of their activities or inactivities, one of which is the Ukraine. They've already thrown a whole batch of new money. I don't know how long it'll take for Zelensky to go through it. And so the question's going to be, will we have a new administration in there that will take more of a practical line and say, okay, enough of this. Let's get together and get out of this thing, figure it out. Or we continue to have the American people pay for what is turning into a bit of a futile effort. And that amount of money is kind of hard to wrap your head around. I think it's $61 billion.

How does that affect the people here at home? We hear about these aid packages all the time. That's a real good point. I mean, these Democrats are supposed to be the party that wants to help poor people. Why don't they give it to them? Sure. And that is to the people of the Ukraine. Yeah, and that is a criticism I think a lot of people have of, you know, turning around and maybe... And again, I'm for resisting Russia. But, again, I'm for resisting Russia. It's got to be done in some kind of practical manner that we can either win or that we can find some kind of settlement and stop the misery here. We can't just keep doing it.

This is Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm Gavin Lestrow, and I'm talking to former ambassador and Florida Congressman Francis Rooney weighing in on the conflict in Ukraine. Do you see us looking in the future to call on other allies to also aid? in the same amount that we have. Well, we're doing that. No, we're definitely doing that. They've stepped up the heat on the European countries of NATO to do more.

Now, will Donald Trump step up the heat more? Yeah, I bet he will, and I think it's probably a really good idea. And that leads perfectly my next question. With the possibility that Trump will be elected, what do you think that he can do differently than this current administration to end the war, or at least advance it? Well, first of all, the fact that he can walk up a set of stairs and make a complete sentence

is going to distinguish him seriously from the United States. They will have to take him seriously. Nobody takes Biden seriously. I don't think anybody in the world takes Biden seriously. Not the Venezuelans, not Russia, not Iran, certainly not the Palestinians.

And so Trump's going to be taken seriously because he's going to mean what he says and he has a track record for acting. And we'll see what he can do. do. And I'm a little bit hopeful, given the activities that took place in his first term with Saudi Arabia, that he will be able to bring the moderate Arab nations into the ambit of Gaza, into some type of assisting or governing structure to bring some stability over there. So Israel doesn't have to be the only policeman of Arabs or Muslims. And how do you

Do you think our relationship with Putin and kind of the threats that he makes towards the U.S. will kind of go away if Trump is elected? I don't know that they'll go away, but I think he's going to have to be a little more careful what he says and does

because he just never know. He just never know. I mean, Trump has a bias for action. He's taken strong measures against China when nobody ever would. He brought Saudi Arabia into relationship with Israel, which nobody never.

done. And I think that it'll be a different tone with a forceful, powerful, powerful American leader versus what we got. Do you see in the future, if Trump is elected and if the war, they really put down the hammer on Russia? Do you see Russia calling on any allies of their own in the future? Well, I don't think they'll try to buy stuff from them, but I don't see China or Iran or anybody jumping into the conflict on the side of Russia. No one's made any motions towards that at all. In fact, China's been kind of careful to say, look, we'll sell you materials. That's in our interest.

But don't talk to us about what you're doing over there. If we were to speak again in a year's time, what kind of change do you hope to see in this conflict and what kind of progress towards peace has been made by that point? Okay. I would like to see the conflict result in the Ukraine with nobody fighting and everybody going back to their country. some of the Ukraine will probably be Russia's territory for the long term. You know, there's two deep-water all-weather ports, and if Russia keeps Crimea,

there's still another one out to the west side of the Ukraine, for the Ukrainians to get their weed out. And so that would be done. Then I hope that we don't spend too much money in cash trying to so-called rebuild the country. You know, these humanitarian missions don't seem to work so well, and the reputation for thievery means that a lot of the money will be pilfered. In the Middle East, I would like to see a group of Arab countries involved in the governance architecture,

along with Israel and the United States and Western nations, to keep a control over the radicals in Palestine and keep something like this from breaking out again where they go in there and kill a bunch of Israelis who are just innocently going about their business. Okay, so that's an ideal situation. where do you realistically think it will be in a year? I have hoped that Trump will be able to do something with the Arabs. And I have hope that he will be able to do something with Putin. Maybe not, but at the end of the day,

the American people are going to stop funding the Ukraine at some point. I mean, even in Vietnam, they finally gave it out. It took a long time. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time, and thank you for weighing in on this. All right. Thanks for having me on. Well, our guest has been Ambassador Francis Maruni,

U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See from 2005 to 2008, and also a representative from Florida's 19th Congressional District until 2021. He joined us to weigh in on the Russian and Ukrainian War, which has been going on now for over three years. And I'm Gavin Listro on Radio Free Hillsdale, 101.7 FM.