WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Wherefore Art Thou, Romeo?: To DTR or not to DTR

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

In this episode, Emily and Greg discuss how many dates before you ought to define the relationship as well as whether women should initiate or not. 

Batman doesn't do ships, as in me. You complete me. I'm George, George McFly. I'm your density. It is not about the nail. No matter when, no matter who, any man has a chance to sweep anyone off her feet. You're listening to Where For Art Thou, Romeo? The show that discusses how to navigate romantic relationships

and how to achieve a mean between the extremes of hookup culture and over-discerned dating. Here's your host, Emily Shuddy. Welcome to Where For Art Thou Romeo, the show where we talk about how to follow your heart without losing your mind. My name is Emily Shuddy and my co-host is licensed marriage therapist and also my dad, Greg Shuddy. We're all navigating relationships every day, but sometimes the most intimate are also the most challenging. Our goal is to help you get out of your own head when it comes to you or even your friend's relationship questions and concerns. So, Greg, today we're going to be talking about how to jump into a relationship without drowning. And so I have a couple of questions from students around the Hillsdale College campus for you related to these.

Okay, yeah, but let me just say first, I think this is pretty cool because this is a father who's actually talking with his daughter about relationships. I mean, how often does that happen? And so many people that I know, you know, sometimes their kids won't talk to them. So here we're talking to everybody else together. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so true. That's so true.

I definitely know a lot of people that think that this is so weird that I talk to you about these things. Well, that's the fun of this. And I think that that's what I want people to hear about is that, you know, I think we take stuff about relationships so seriously that it just consumes. us or it freezes us or it fills us with fear versus, you know, God gave us this is a gift to really enjoy in some ways. And I know it's hard. It's something to navigate, but so I'm glad that we're doing this. I think this is great. Me too. I'm so either that or I'm just stalling. So, because I know what you're going to throw out of me here. He's worried he doesn't have answers for my questions. Okay. So our first question is how many dates

should you go on before you should ask someone to be official. And I'm guessing that means be officially a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Okay, at least 45. Dates? Yes. That's ridiculous. Well, of course. That's what I was hoping you would say.

My purpose for that is, you know, it's just like trying to pin down the perfect for everybody as a whole. And I think that that's kind of impossible. And when you're talking about relationships, it's a subjective kind of thing. What you're getting into, where your goals are in life, what you're trying to accomplish at that time. You know, there's a lot of factors that play into that. So what I'd like to ask you first is,

what feeling do you get from, you know, people around you as far as how many dates before it can be official. Do people have opinions on that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, in my friend group personally, I don't know that I've ever heard anybody say that they have a specific stance on this. I would say that maybe like at most five dates, because I think at that point, if you don't, if you don't just make a decision about it, you're leading someone on and you're not really like, I think, I think that in my mind, I'd think that we were dating. I'd just be frustrated that there wasn't any, like, definition to the relationship. Yeah, at that point,

it's kind of like the cut bait or, you know, do something different. But yeah, no, that's a great question. And I wish I had a perfect answer. But one of the things that I think people need to really think about is dating shouldn't, I mean, specific where you're, you're, you're, you're exclusive, let's put it that way, in dating, it shouldn't be something that we take lightly. And I think a lot of people do that nowadays. I think there is that time where you kind of call it predating, where we're doing a few dates here and there to really see, is this something that I want to pursue? But the question I think most people need to ask is, is this a person that I can see myself

starting to move towards marriage with. And what's that going to look like? Because I think there's a few factors that we've got to play out with this. One is if you're not ready to get married in a certain period of time, and we're not talking long time, because if you're dating a long time, that's when some difficulties can play out because we naturally grow towards really connecting and becoming physical

and in the relationship. But with that put aside is, are you looking, is this someone that you see as a possibility that you really want to start to dig in and really start to vet out? That sounds a little technical there. But that's what we're doing here. We're saying I'm exclusive because I really want to see, are you the person that I want to end up marrying someday? Yeah, I guess just to kind of push back on that, though, are you saying that like every time you're interested in, I don't know, dating something? Like maybe there's this for a guy, there's this girl you're really interested in. But like if you're not totally committed to, you know, considering marriage right away, you shouldn't ask her to be your girlfriend.

Like you shouldn't date someone if you're not focused on marriage. Well, what do you, I mean, what are you saying by, you know, being my girlfriend? That's kind of the question is, well, what's the thought here? What are we moving towards? Are we just having, you know, fun together? Or are we moving in a direction? Does that make sense? Yeah, that does make sense.

I think I do, I still am not sure that I buy that you can't date at all without that intention. at least for a time. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. If you caught that, I was talking about exclusive. You said when you should become exclusive. When you're saying I'm becoming exclusive, that means that we are focused on this relationship with a purpose in mind.

Outside of that, yeah, you can date as, you know, go out and do things together and have fun together and all of that. But I guess if you're saying, when should I turn this relationship into something exclusive, then my question is, is exclusive for what purpose? Does that make sense? So you're saying, can we go out and do things as friends and kind of go on a date per se? Yeah, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. So I'm not sure that that's necessarily what I'm saying.

I think on the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, say that there's a, a couple who just wants to to date for a year to kind of see, like get to know each other. They're exclusively dating, but they have, they've decided that they're not going to discern marriage until a year of dating because they,

I don't know, they want to just take that time to get to know. Like, do you think that that's, I don't know, that just, that seems like a viable option of like getting to know before you're super committed. But you still kind of, you do kind of have a goal that you're going to start,

considering that, but maybe it's not something you're thinking about right away? Sure. So there's the outward clarity and there's the inward clarity, if this makes sense. And you're saying, you know, outside where we're agreeing, let's try this for a year or so and see how things are going. But again, think about what you're doing there. You're investing a lot of your time. After a year, you've invested a lot of your time, your heart. And this is where things can become dangerous too, because sometimes it becomes something that's comfortable and it's harder to let go of. So again, internally, you have to make this decision.

Is this someone that I could see myself potentially going into marriage with? Maybe that's not something you talk about with them immediately. I mean, if you want to, you can. Maybe, but that's just it. I think that's the whole thing of how much time do you really want to invest in this if it's not the right person.

And if it is the right person, then what are you investing for? Yeah. Does that make sense? That does make sense. I guess kind of then pointing back to the original question of like how many dates before becoming official. Because I guess those first few were just kind of the fun initial getting to know.

And like you don't really have to be sure about anything at that point. But then would you say maybe the number of dates is subjective, but you should be trying to consider whether that person is someone you could see yourself continuing on in a relationship and if that's the case, then that's when you should make it official. Well, in some ways, it's only fair to both of you.

I mean, this is not just one person doing this. You're making a decision of whether to spend time with this person, but you're also, you know, if you're not sure and this is not someone you may see yourself, getting married to someday and now you're investing all this time, is that fair to this other person who might be seeing it the other way? That's why it's so hard on people where one is just like, yeah, I'll see, you know, some people come along and they use you.

And that's where it's that taking that time, first of all, you see, is this a person that I can see having a long-term relationship with? If you can't, then, yes, I would say, maybe that's something that you just agree to be friends. If you can, then there's got to be that movement, but there's got to be discussion around it too. Because part of that dating is to try and figure out, not only is this the person for me, but you're looking for patterns in their life. And that's one of the things that I've taught so often to individuals is we're looking for patterns to figure out.

And maybe this is the wrong way to say it, but it's true. You're trying to figure out, let me step back a second. Before me and your mom got married, we had dated for a while. But one of the things that she did was she sat down and wrote out a list. Reasons to marry, Greg, reasons not to marry. And so she's sitting there looking at it as, what are all the things that I struggle with with him? because you're going to struggle with and then you've got to decide

can I live with that? Because I think sometimes people don't do that. They're not looking at the red flags. They just think those will go away in time or our love will fix this. And it's like, no, no, no, no. The good things before marriage may or may not continue on into marriage.

It sounds like a very pessimistic way of looking at it, but it's true. But the difficulties most likely will enter into marriage, and they will, they'll magnify. And so the hope is, for me, it's always looking for that person that's trying to become better that is willing to look at some of their flaws and do something different. So again, yes, my point in that how many dates, I go back to my rule. original thing, I think I said last time, is this is where I encourage so many people to spend a lot more time in the friendship phase, where you're around others, you're watching. And you might have an affinity towards one person. Great. But watch how they interact. Watch their other relationships. Watch how they're, and so, you know, you can learn some of that before you go, hey, I would love to move into something, move into, our relationship with that person.

Yeah. Yeah. Does there become a point at which, you know, maybe you have an affinity towards one person and you're spending times in groups, but you're still, you know, definitely bonding with that person. Is there a point at which that could become confusing

for one part or the other? Yeah. And I think that's a sad part. And I'm sure I know in college campuses, that's probably one of the biggest difficulties most people deal with. You know, one person's really investing and the other person may not even look at it as a relationship that they're interested in, but they're acting in such a way. And maybe they don't even think that way.

Maybe it's just an innocent thing. Sometimes it's people that lead you on. Yeah, those are all those things that you kind of have to figure out. But it also reminds me of my sister when she was dating some guys. and after a certain point, she was like, okay, this is not going anywhere. And her thing was, you know, either do or don't. But, you know, I'm not going to keep playing this game with you.

We need to be either continuing to move or we're not just going to stay in this party phase, this, you know, have fun phase, but we're not moving in a direction. And again, that's why I say that to people, because that's the other thing that plays out here. So say you're a freshman and you see this nice guy and you have this connection there. And there's the possibility of you're thinking, oh, I'd like to date them. Great.

But the question is, is with what in mind? What is your purpose? Is it to move towards marriage? Because if so, you know, there's a thing where you can date too long and it becomes very dangerous. And I've seen that happen. Yeah, yeah. Just a reminder, you're listening to Whereforearthel Romeo, where we are discussing the question, how many dates before you should ask someone to be official. I'm your host, Emily Shuddy, and my co-host is licensed marriage therapist, Greg Shuddy, here on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM.

So just to kind of get back into that, what you were just talking about, it's making me think of the concept that we had coming into this show. show of like the mean between the extremes of hookup culture and over discerned dating. So I guess, you know, if you're if you're dating forever in and on, you're just going on and on and on in your dating process, you kind of get into that dangerous aspect that you're talking about of maybe like leading into that hookup culture because that's, you know, the natural evolution of a relationship. Whereas like the over discerned part, So if you spend too much time thinking about, oh, should I ask this person out or should I ask them to be official or not, then you may never actually define the relationship and both parties kind of get hurt in the process. Well, let me correct you on one thing there is, you know, those relationships don't move into the hookup culture.

The hookup culture is a whole different mindset. The hookup culture is one of these where I want to have fun and I want to use others for pleasure without any kind of commitment. That's the whole hookup. And if that's, you know, what the relationship seems to be and the person's only focused on that, that's where it becomes very dangerous. But what you said, the second part there is there's this natural progression when you are growing emotionally closer to one another. And you've spent a lot of time and you've built a lot of memories and, you know, that there's just this natural move towards what we're called to in marriage, which is this sexual union. And for some people, you know, they see that as a part of dating even. So there's two parts to that.

One is dating too long, you've got to start to realize that. You know, you've got a, you're going to be dealing with those feelings. And if you're putting yourself into situations where that makes that easy, that could happen. But the other one that I think is more dangerous is people who see the whole sexual aspect as a part of dating. Like this is something you need to do in order to figure out if this person is the right person for you. Does that make sense? Yeah, that does make sense. Okay, so I have a question kind of related to this, like, when to start the dating process,

but it's still an element of jumping into relationships. And this is from, I guess, the girls' perspective, because I feel like as girls, we sit around wondering whether, like, someone's going to ask us out and we don't want to be, you know, weird about it and speak up first. because if we do, then maybe the guy will think we're weird or something. But is there space for a girl to initiate, like, initiate, speak up and initiate if there's, like, potential for more than friendship with a guy? Or is that just always weird? Does she just have to sit around and wait? Well, and that's where, again, I would ask you, what's your opinion on that?

Okay. So my initial instinct would be that. that it just, I want someone, I want the guy to lead, to initiate, I want to be pursued. So I would hope that he would initiate and that if I have to initiate, then perhaps it's not the right person. Okay. But at the same time, like, I've heard people say that like, oh, you can drop the handkerchief. Like, you give them an opportunity to be chivalrous or, or, uh, you know,

gentlemanly with you by just kind of opening a door for them. Like there's still that opportunity to like initiate, but it's not necessarily that you would ask them out or whatever the case may be. Okay. Let me ask a little bit further here. So what is important to you as far as someone initiating? Why is that important to you? I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I'm just asking a question for clarification.

Yeah, I think that will kind of indicate what the relationship will look like in the long run. Are they going to be the one that's always being pulled along? Or are they actually going to, you know, be a leader, be someone you can rely on? Yeah. No, I think. And the reason I ask that is because, I mean, there's so many facets to this that, that I'd love to talk on, but I won't. Maybe we can get into this more later is just the fact that guys need to learn how to lead.

And I think that that's what I'm seeing so often in marriages today is where guys aren't leaders. And so this, yeah, you're making a good point there is can they lead. But I think the other part is yes. I agree with the whole statement of throwing the handkerchief out there and showing the interest and showing that without becoming, like you said, weird, where it's overly on top of the person all the time and just pressuring in different ways. Because that was one of the things that I often said,

I don't know if I would have thought to ask your mom out if she didn't first show me interest. She made it a point to come down the hall from where she was to where I was to introduce. Now, she did it kind of sly, and that's okay. But then she led into, oh, you have a guitar and I do. And so, yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with showing that interest to see if there'll be some interest shown back. Yeah, yeah.

That's super helpful. Thank you so much for your thoughts and for this really great conversation. And I just want to remind our listeners that relationships are process and they take time and effort. and we just want to help you balance your head and your heart. This is just your friendly reminder to not be discouraged, because if you haven't found your Romeo or Juliet, maybe consider Bob or Betty. If you have questions that you would like us to address,

please email them to E-Shoudi, S-C-H-U-T-E-T-E at Hillsdale.edu, and we will discuss them in future shows. That's all for Wherefore-R-R-R-Thel Romeo. I'm Emily Schoey. And I'm Greg Shuddy. On Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 at that. in my home