WRFH/Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM - Word to the Wise: TikTok- "to Scroll or not to Scroll"

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Short form content is increasingly popular. We all know it's bad for us, but how pervasive is it really?

Hey, everybody. You're listening to Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7. My name is Ariel McDowell. And I'm her brother Judah McDowell, and this is Word to the Wise. We're we critically and humorously scrutinize anything significant in pop culture today. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us today. Today, we are going to be talking about TikTok and just more generally short-form content and its effects on society. So, yeah, let's get into it. So in general, Short form content is just any type of video most popularly on TikTok or Instagram Reels, which is a video that's less than like three minutes. So it could be anywhere from like maybe just a 15 second thing to like maybe like a minute and a half.

But that's usually going to be pretty longer. Yeah. Like much longer than most. And people veer towards the shorter ones. Like it's an attention span absolute destroyer. Right. So it's like on YouTube, you know you can watch these 15 minute science videos. that is not what short form content is very quick.

You can watch it over and over again often because it's... And to switch between them, all you're doing is like a little little thumb scroll. And the moment's not interesting, scroll, scroll, scroll, and it pops up. And the graphics of how it pops up are so smooth. And it like all is very, very addictive for your brain. So the Wall Street Journal did an investigation just on TikTok specifically by making a ton of bot users and giving them interests. and not signing up to TikTok, telling the app what those interests were,

and basically seeing how quickly TikTok could figure out what those interests are. What's interesting about TikTok is it's different from other social media platforms in that on YouTube, you're often going to, you have to use the search engine. So you're like, I want to learn about whales. I'm going to look up whale videos. Or I want to see, you know, I want to watch this excerpt from Swan Lake. Like you're going and you're looking up something. that you're interested in first.

And Instagram also takes some type of intentional engagement. TikTok, I think the statistic is like 90 to 95% of what you're seeing is being fed to you, as opposed to something like YouTube, it's more like 70 to 75%. Because, you know, once you click on that first video that you searched up, it does give you, it does feed you options on the side and then you click on those. But even that is a more intentional process than just scrolling and whatever's next is next and you have no idea what's coming. On YouTube, yes, it's feeding you content in the suggested videos area. But you still can look at the titles and choose which one.

Whereas something like TikTok or really any form of short term content, you're just saying, tell me what you would like my brain to know. Tell me what you would like me to see. Tell me how you want to entertain me. You have zero control over what you're seeing next. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, YouTube has, you know, due to TikTok's popularity, YouTube, now has YouTube shorts, which is exactly that. But, you know, TikTok, that's all it is.

Like, they don't have long, like longer content at all. Right. So when you download an app like TikTok or any app like that, most likely, it usually asks you what you're interested in. So it'll be like, it'll give you a bunch of options. Do you like sports? Do you like dancing, singing? Are you religious?

Stuff like that. So with these bots, though, they didn't do that. So they had interest that they did not give to the app, that they programmed the bot to be interested in, specific hashtags and such, to figure out what your unexpressed interests were. So that would be for someone like, maybe you don't even know what you're interested in,

but the app figures it out. So what would happen is these bots would just pause for slightly longer or maybe watch twice a video that contains this thing. And within just a couple of hours of watch time on the app, the TikTok had completely figured out what these bots wanted to see and were mostly feeding them. that. And some of the things that they assigned for interest were things like sadness, depression. Basically, what they're finding out is that TikTok's algorithm is just insanely good, even compared

to other social media algorithms, at figuring out who you are. In one TikTok, a girl mentioned that it felt like TikTok knew her thoughts. What it was recommending on her four-year page, it's like, how do you even know that I would want to hear someone talking about that idea? I don't feel like I've looked that up, but it feels relevant to me. And so people are just kind of like, how is this even possible? Which is the whole reason the Wall Street Journal is doing this investigation. Like, what's so different about TikTok? And their analyst, Giam Chaslow, he did end up saying this is a significantly more powerful algorithm than even something like YouTube.

And he had actually worked for Google creating YouTube algorithms. So he knows what he's talking about. So they've figured out like how great this, um, TikTok algorithm is it like figuring these things out and it's like well why is that like a bad thing like for entertainment purposes isn't that good like if I'm interested in seeing things about football isn't it a good thing that TikTok finds out what that I'm interested in football and shows me those types of videos like isn't that what you want but there's actually like reasons that it's actually dangerous how good the algorithm is because like it doesn't just figure out your basic interest

and give you videos that'll help you be entertained the most because the its goal isn't actually to help you stay entertained the most, it's trying to keep you on the app for as long as possible. That's what it's designed to do. What will make you stay? What will make you click? For instance, sometimes there's things

you might enjoy less, but you still find yourself fascinated or clicking on it. And so you end up, you don't necessarily end up absorbing the things that most interest you or most spark your creativity or most well-informed you.

You end up clicking on things that might even like disgust you or annoy you because they draw you in. right absolutely and that like makes you spend more time on there like an average user spends 1.5 hours a day on TikTok which that's a lot of your time and then just think that's the average there are people who like barely ever touch it what think about how many people are just spending hours a day on there right and then it's been estimated that one and four users are under the age of 20 and allegedly you have to be over the age of 13 to create an account but you can always just lie so you absolutely have

seven, eight, nine-year-olds spending their day on TikTok. And for those of you who are just tuning in with us, you are listening to Word to the Wise on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. I'm Judah McDow, and I'm here with my sister Ariel McDow. And today, we are talking about short-form content. What we see on TikTok is a bit the same that what we saw on YouTube. So basically, the algorithm is detecting that this depressing content is useful to create, engagement on pushes depressing content. So the algorithm is pushing people towards more and more

extreme content so it can push them toward more and more watch time. That was the voice of Geom Chaslow in the Wall Street Journal's investigative video, how TikTok's algorithm figures out your deepest desires. So one thing that's important to note here, and we've already talked about it just a little bit is that understand TikTok is not a restaurant right it's not there to serve or please you it doesn't want you to walk out with a five-star review like i was so entertained it doesn't mind that but its goal is purely to have you spend the maximum amount of time in the app and that doesn't necessarily mean consuming the content that makes you smile it means consuming the content that keeps you addicted

So it's not comparable to some other entertainment service that is trying to like, hey, leave a good review when we leave. Did you have a good time? It's not serving you at all versus there are other forms of media and enjoyment out there. And I think this is a transition our society has very recently made, right? Because if you go out in public and you're trying to have a good time, I mean, just on the most basic level, there's more human interaction. But also there's a service dynamic. And that's what's interesting is about these social media is everything about it is you being self-served by a machine. And that machine doesn't have any incentive to actually care about your experience.

And so what that looks like for a platform like TikTok is the content is not making you smile. It's whatever is addictive. It's true. They don't make more money with you being happier liking their videos. Like you're not paying for the service. It's just like ad revenue. So, you know, a video might make you smile, but in the end, the people creating TikTok aren't trying to give you the best videos for you. They're just trying to make you stay on there.

Right. More like an all-you-eat buffet where the food is laced with morphine than a restaurant. So, okay, we've talked a lot about what TikTok looks like at this point. And I just want you to start, like, adding up the facts, right? Like, specifically we're talking about short-form content and obviously primarily TikTok. You aren't mostly choosing what you watch. It chooses it for you. All it takes is a little scroll.

It wants you to spend as much time on the app as possible. It wants you to rabbit hole because that's how it gets you to those videos with a smaller view count and gets you to spend more time. And it's super short, short little videos. So your attention span is just going down and you're just constantly scrolling. So it can take you wherever you want. Okay, add up these facts. And I don't think you can take this neutral pros and cons approach to something like TikTok. I'm not saying it can't ever be had in a good way.

And I'm not saying it hasn't produced some great content. But I am saying if you add up all that facts, those facts and look at the scenario it creates, your 14-year-old son just shouldn't have TikTok, like just objectively. And so taking this like neutral position like, oh, It's one of those new things and it's going to have benefits and it's going to have cons. At this point, saying it has benefits is like saying there's cardiovascular benefit to take in cocaine because it speeds your heart rate up, which would technically be a true statement. Like at this point, kids just shouldn't have TikTok. It's not the same.

It's not the same as other social media. One could argue about, you know, what platform when in what way. But something like TikTok and short form content is like newly atrocious is the best way. True. And I don't think we even need to say, like, your 14-year-old shouldn't have TikTok. I mean, obviously it's up to yourself, but I mean, you could say no one should. I mean, when you really think about it, it's kind of absurd what it is in general. Like, think about how hard it's been, like, in the past to be entertained. Think about how much people get done. Like, the fact that in literally three seconds, I can have literally just infinite videos at my, like, at my fingertips,

like just right away. And they're those kind of videos. And that they can include content that just is absolutely atrocious that you never would have accidentally happened on before. In previous eras, if you wanted something truly horrible, you had to go and find it. But the bot now has an incentive to beat it to you, even if you're not looking for it, and you don't have control over what you're consuming. Humans just aren't supposed to be entertained that way, are supposed to be entertained in community. So, yeah, I think I agree with you, dude. I think it is like, yeah, just people in general, aside from rare exceptions, just kind of shouldn't have things like TikTok or spend much time on short form content.

Right. And I'm sure you all listening have probably heard about the like TikTok ban and the whole government like thing. And like, you know, you can have different positions on whether the government should be able to ban an app. You know, a lot of it has to do with like Chinese spyware and all that. But like from just like a personal standpoint, like you have control over what's on your phones. and until your child turns 18, you have control over what's on their phone. And, you know, that's something that can be avoided yourself, whether the government bans it or not. And I know every other health class or workshop or something has something on social media statistics with depression and anything. And it's like everyone's acknowledging that this is like theoretically a problem.

But people are still living like this. Like kids are still walking around with TikTok. could we make it like just on a personal level aside from all government bans, etc. Could we just make it like really abnormal, like bad to have something like TikTok on your phone? Like it's just not something that should be done. And I think if we all took that stance instead of just theoretically talking about the problems with social media and how you can fix them. Well, how we can fix them.

I don't think the fixing with TikTok is managing to screen every single video. I don't think humans are meant to consume things this way ever. Yeah, I completely agree. And like, going back to what you said, it's really not theoretical. Like, there aren't, we don't just say there are kids walking around with these things. Like, I've heard so many speeches about what social media can do to you and your mind. Like, I'm in a physical wellness class right now and they talk about it. But like back at home, pretty much all my friends had this of some sort.

Like they, most of them had TikTok. I had one friend who had like Instagram Reels. I would say I only had like a very select few people I knew who were like, not on any of this. Like, it is very rare. And it's like, not all of them, like, completely addicted and, like, we're having serious issues, but it is definitely there. And I feel like here, like, at Hillsdale, like, at college, I feel like, it's definitely

different dynamic. There's a lot less. Yeah. But back in high school, it was very problematic. Yeah, everywhere. Yeah. I think people are, like, fairly good at talking about how addictive social media can be and how bad it is for your brain,

how bad it can be for your engagement with other people, retaining good community, you know, how isolating it can be, depression, anxiety, all of these things. I think one thing that is absolutely not talked about enough is how outrageous it is to ever have access to the content that people can put on these platforms. And not only that to have access to it,

but for the machine to try and feed you whatever is going to keep you on the app long with a little scroll of your thumb. I mean, you know what the algorithm's aim is. You know exactly what you're getting from that. You know, like, at what point during human history would people have ever had access to such horrible things? When we were watching the Wall Street Journal investigative video, just because it was, you know, it was a video.

So it had graphics popping up with examples as she narrated what their study had been. and even just some of the example videos that popped up when it started talking about depression and some of the more sexual content. Nothing was explicit, but it was just popping up these example videos and they're like, ugh, like, these are things that should, like, you've got kids who are like in extremely dark places just putting whatever they're thinking and feeling online in like this super accessible format of like five second clips. and so allegedly the videos can be vetted but i mean only to a certain extent and when people can post whatever they want plus also it's whatever tictock standard is which i don't know how much you want to trust their judgment um but i just think we don't acknowledge enough how outrageous it is that kids would ever be in a world with access to anything as dark as what is on in social media like i have had um just friends tell me things and I'm sitting here and I'm like you would have to in a previous era go to a horrible place in town to have that interaction with another human being and you would

have to be seeking it if you were seeking something that vile you had to like work for you had to go find it and a nine-year-old the machine wants it to consume that because it wants the nine year old to be addicted and I just think like that scenario there's no pros and cons moderation for social media. Like that just should not be happening. Kids should not be existing in spaces where they can come anywhere close to the kind of stuff that is on TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube short should not be coming close to it. Yeah, you make a good point. Like people do talk about that like moderation thing because of addiction, but like, you know, you don't. It's not strong enough. Yeah, you don't tell your kids like, yeah, take, you know, your drugs in moderation, you know. It's like it's bad for you, you know.

It's bad enough that we need to be taking a much stronger. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And for those of you just joining us, you're listening to Words of the Wise on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7 FM. My name is Ariel McDowell. I'm here with my brother Judah, and we are talking about TikTok and other forms of short form content and its destructive effects upon society as a whole. So picking back up on what Ariel was just talking about, about how it's crazy that people have access to this like vile content such as you know videos about how depressed people are videos about suicide sexually promiscuous videos like how crazy is that people have access and someone like would come

to me i've people have told me like i don't get those videos or it's really rare like people probably won't see that on there if they're smart and for one thing what the guy was just saying about the algorithm that's not true they probably not they probably will get those videos but let's just like say someone doesn't, since when do we, for entertainment purposes, yeah, take risks of that level. Of that nature. Like, especially with kids having access to it. That's not a risk you take. Do we really, like, we're kidding ourselves if we think that the complete rise and how depressed

people are and the, just the issues that people are having with, like, eating disorders and suicide if we think it has nothing to do with TikTok. We can't completely blame it on short form, but like, come on. and these are like some of the most extreme horrible examples of what this kind of content can do but i think if you take a moment to just look at the people around you and the way it's affecting them it really is massively impacting the average person you would encounter our attention spans are shot um we can't pause for even a second without doing something on our phones and short form content is one of the ways that we have chosen to occupy ourselves constantly um sometimes

even when we are not just by ourselves consuming it, even between in friendships, friend to friends, you're showing someone else's humor on a video instead of talking with each other. Not that this is always horrible, but I'm just trying to show you how it is affecting how we communicate daily. And when a company that is incentivized to addict you

is becoming very central to communication within a culture, it's going to have massive philosophical ramifications on that culture. It's going to have massive, like, it's going to be a paradigm shift in the way people think. Like, it's undeniably massive. And it's for that reason that I think we can't treat it the same way we would a conversation about sugar, for example. I don't think moderation is sufficient. I think really humans aren't meant to consume content that way. And I think we need to take a stronger stance.

Yeah. And I can just give examples of, like, being with my friends. watching football at my friend's house and then the commercial comes up and everyone's on their phones or playing a video game together on the call and one of them dies and while the rest of us are playing instead of talking I can hear TikToks through my headphones and I think that's just like goes to show like even just a normal person like it doesn't take like a bad person you don't have to be an idiot it's so easy to just get trapped in this it's so easy so accessible all this to say it's not some massive moral issue for anyone to have ever had an

app for short form content. But I just think it would be great if as a society it wasn't normal. I don't know exactly what it would look like to get there. But I don't think kids should have access to short form content. And honestly, it would be great if adults weren't regularly accessing it either. Humans just aren't really supposed to be entertained that way. So that would be my encouragement to you. Thoughts, Judah?

Yeah, I agree. And I would just say to anyone, you know, what my recommendation would be is just, yeah, like, the same to get off of it because I just feel like every part of life is just kind of better without it. You can enjoy the leisure time you have more because you don't waste it on that. It leaves more time for studying, work, whatever it is you need to do. I just think like for both you personally and anyone listening with kids, like you will find that life is just more enjoyable when you aren't weighed down by short form content. Even if it can be a little bit funny sometimes or you feel like it's relaxing. Study show it's actually making you more frustrated. More anxious. Yeah. So

yeah, that would just be my thoughts. Just get off that. Go do something for real. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, you guys, and listening to us rant about TikTok and short form content. This has been Word to the Wise on Radio Free Hillsdale 101.7. I'm Ariel, and that was my brother, Judah. And we hope you have a wonderful day.