WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Adam Schlesinger from 2012

Episode Date: April 1, 2020

From Episode 348, Marc's conversation with songwriter and musician Adam Schlesinger about Fountains of Wayne, That Thing You Do, Broadway and more. Adam passed away on March 31, 2020. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Adam Schlesinger, Schlesinger, Schlesinger. Schlesinger. Yeah? Yeah. From Fountains of Wayne and many other things. You are a professional musician. I am indeed. My girlfriend loves Fountains of Wayne.

Cool. Yeah. Tell her thanks. Yeah, no, I mean, maybe you'll be able to meet her. I think she's going to be cranky and exhausted. I bet you're excited about that. Wouldn't it be fun to meet a cranky and exhausted fan? That's what I was hoping would happen here.

Yeah, I figured that's why you came over here. So what are you doing in L.A.? You don't live here now, do you? I don't live here, no. I come out here sometimes for work and related stuff. And I've been working on a television show that's got a lot of music in it. And so I'm out here this week

doing that. This is the thing. I talk to musicians. Not a lot of them, but I've been talking to musicians lately. I've talked to the likes of Nick Lowe, Jack White. Up and coming guys. New guys. New guys on the block. But there's

this there's this idea about musicians that you know like if people haven't heard from them in a while or that they're not as popular as they used to be i'm not saying that about you necessarily but they're like what are they doing but you've been doing things all along um yeah i mean you know the band thing was always kind of at the center of it for me, but I always had this kind of other life just doing music for hire or whatever somebody called me to do.

And Chris, who's the singer in Fountains of Wayne, just calls me a music whore, which is sort of true, too. A music whore! Yeah, but, you know, basically I just wanted to make a living making music, and I also like a lot of different kinds of music. Yeah. And so Chris and I went to college together, and we started playing in bands together even in college.

Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Manhattan as a little kid, and then Montclair, New Jersey for most of my upbringing. Montclair, New Jersey. My family's from Ponton Lakes, New Jersey, and Jersey City. Like Montclair's close to that, right? Yeah, very close to that. Willowbrook Mall? Willowbrook Mall, yep.

Paramus Park? Well, Fountains of Wayne was named after a store in Wayne, New Jersey, which is right next to the Willowbrook Mall. It's not there anymore. I lived in Wayne, New Jersey. You did? I don't remember much about it because I was literally six years old, but I lived in Wayne, New Jersey, and that's where the Fountains of Wayne store is?

It's not there anymore. It was there for my entire childhood, but they closed a few years ago. But we took the band name from that place. What is that? That's your phone. There's a lot going on on your phone right now. I thought I just turned it off. Okay, done.

Yeah. So anyway, I grew up there and um went to college in massachusetts western mass met chris collingwood there and we were both aspiring songwriters and we started playing in bands together there and then when we got out of college we were doing the band thing but then i was also just trying to get work making music for whatever so i had some friends that got involved in television that called me and hired me to do... One of the earlier things I did was a friend of mine was working with John Leguizamo, and he had a sketch comedy show that was on Fox for like five seconds. It was called House of Buggin'.

Yeah, I kind of remember that. He called me up to work on that. And then after that, I got hired to work on the Dana Carvey show, another sketch comedy show. And that was a really cool show because it was like all the people that came from that. Louis and Robert hired you? Robert, yeah that was a really cool show because it was like all the people that came from that. Louie and Robert hired you? Robert, yeah, was like running it, and Louie, and it's like... Robert Smigel. Robert Smigel, yeah.

So how does that work? Let's go back to the Fountains of Wayne thing because Fountains of Wayne is a pop band. It is, yes. Power pop, I guess you would call it. Would you call it that? I mean, we don't really call it that, but we get put in that category.

It's sort of a funny term that I don't really know what it means, but where it's a pop band, I mean, it's sort of like melodic, and it's not so much risk-driven. Yeah, no, it's sweet. It's got those minor chords that my friend... Got minor and major, got all that shit. That Jonathan Daniel loves. The sweet pop sound. Jonathan Daniel loves. Yeah.

The sweet pop sound. Jonathan Daniel is our manager. I know. Old friend of mine. I would have him on the show if you could get him to talk. Yeah, he's here. He's in town. Is he?

Yeah, just get him over here right now. Well, he's your manager. He should be here. Let's text him. Say, quick, you're needed. He'll be like, I'm not going to go over there. Soft-spoken John.

What's going on behind that not talking much? Yes, he's a very smart man. But okay, so this is, the era is what, mid-90s? You put this band together. Well, we actually had kind of a false start in the early 90s. We had a pre-band, Fountains of Wayne, and we made a record that never came out, and we signed a really crappy record deal that screwed us up for a while.

And we thought we were kind of done, and we thought we'd just blown it. You know, we were like 24, and we were just like, fuck, it's over. Yeah, we blew it. And so we went our separate ways for a while. Chris was living in Boston. I was living in New York. I started playing in a different band called Ivy, which got that going. It was a whole different kind of thing.

And I also started doing more just whatever, television, whatever I could get involved with. And then Chris and I got back together a couple years later. And it was that thing where we sort of thought it was too late anyway so who gives a shit so we started writing these songs i mean chris actually started it with this song called radiation vibe which he kind of wrote as a joke yeah and i and i loved it and it was it just had a lot more um kind of loose spirit to it than some of the stuff we had done earlier yeah you know we weren't trying so hard right so that song opened up this kind of floodgate of writing for both of us and we wrote this, what became that first

Fountains of Wayne record really quickly. Wrote a lot of it sitting in a bar in the West Village and just kind of goofing around. But people were responding to that stuff a lot more than the stuff we had done three years before that anyway. It just had much more life to it. Was it because that kind of music was seeing

a kind of resurgence? Because I know there was a period where power pop kind of went out of favor somehow and kind of like got bullied out by just grunge and a lot of other stuff. But the sweet kind of music like the Cars and I guess the Smithereens were before you, right? Yeah, I mean, that was funny because there was this period in the mid-90s, you know, it was afterirvana and all that stuff and then there was this other wave of bands like weezer and presidents of the united states and stuff that was like kind of you know like white guys with guitars yeah it had more humor in it yeah and that stuff started actually selling

records right and so for a second there it was like a band like i seemed like a commercial prospect to somebody which was kind of a funny idea but but um but also just we were just making better songs than we had been and so you know people got interested in it and we ended up actually getting to make a record and at that point you know getting up like a major label record deal actually meant something there was like some money attached to that and a little more exposure money and shame and uh and potential uh debt yeah yeah did you did you have one of those uh those uh situations where you ended up getting fucked by a record company um you know i would i wouldn't say we ever really got fucked you know i think like we were always kind of left alone just because except for maybe that first five minutes yeah nobody had these like great

expectations for us so for better or worse we were left alone to make the records we wanted to make. The best thing is we didn't ever put out anything we were ashamed of. We had a lot of friends on major labels where they just got pressured into writing with people they didn't want to write with. Really? Yeah.

That happens? I don't know how much it happens these days, but back then, yeah, I had a lot of friends that ended up kind of getting bullied into putting out records that they didn't like. How does that work, though? Like, who decides that? An executive?

It's just, you know, it's not so different from the way a television show can get screwed up or a movie. I mean, it's like you're making this record, and then somebody says you really need the one song that's going to get you on the radio, and in order to write that, you need to write with this guy that just had five of them, and you don't really like his music, but you go along with it to be a team player right you know and then and then you don't really like what you end up with but they like it and then you just end up blaming some other guy for why yeah i mean sometimes that can work sometimes sometimes you end up with a cool hit song and everybody's happy but but i just i've had a lot of friends that ended up with records they didn't like and it kind of soured the whole experience you know it's awful it's

awful to have something out there that you hate and you're sort of held responsible for it and it's not really your thing. Yeah, I mean, everybody has that to some extent.

Sure. You try to police it if you can. Just little shame packets we leave along the way. And then the internet makes them just last forever now. Yeah, now people can go

look at them and laugh at you. No escaping your shame packet. I know. Time is just compressed now. All the embarrassing things you did are just fresh. Oh, yeah. Always.

Ever present. Evergreen. Yeah. There's you in your most embarrassing situation. Yeah. But, like, you grew up... Are you a Jewish guy? I am, yes.

So you grew up... Georetically, at least. Jewish in New Jersey. Yeah. Are you familiar with this at all? Sure. Is this Ring Bell? This is my roots. Jewish in New Jersey. Yeah. Are you familiar with this at all? Sure. Is this Ringbell? This is my roots, Jewish in New Jersey.

Yeah. And what did your folks do? Are they happy? I think they're very happy now. Yeah, they're happy. They were always supportive. They thought it was a generally unrealistic thing to try to be a musician, but they didn't tell me not to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they came from families that were, you know, my mom's parents were both professional musicians and music professors and stuff. And both my parents were musicians, not professionally, but both played. Really? Yeah. What's your dad play? He played sax and clarinet, still does.

And, you know, I mean, we used to, like, jam out and stuff. He's good, you know? He's a good player. Really? Yeah. And what did your mom play? My mom played piano and cello. Oh, my God. So there's a lot, you know, there's music in the out and stuff. He's good. He's a good player. Really? Yeah. And what did your mom play? My mom played piano and cello. Oh, my God.

There's music in the house and stuff. What a sweet situation that is. Yeah. Every night there was a jam. No, that's not true. Every weekend, right? No, but I mean, there was a lot of music. I mean, they didn't know anything about popular music.

They definitely came from different worlds of music. Classical? Classical. My dad knew a lot about jazz neither of them really knew much about pop or rock but but but so when you're a kid that means you were what learning how to read music very early I yeah I like took piano lessons required of young Jewish men to take piano I never took them I went right to guitar and I and it's not too late you know there's a lot of good teachers I think it might be too late. Yeah, it might be too late.

I mean, I don't know if I can do the one hand doing the other thing. You know what I mean? That thing. I still can't finger pick. Yeah. I can't. The whole idea, I get the bass going over here and the other thing going here. Yeah.

It's why you're doing it in the air right now. Yeah, it's scaring me now. Yeah. The idea like, what if I'm thinking about this one too much? Yeah. But you know how to play piano? I do, yeah. That's sort of my main instrument.

I mean, I became a bass player and then later a guitar player, mainly because I, you know, in like high school bands, I didn't like being stuck behind the keyboard. I liked to be able to move around a little bit. So I learned that later. And now I play, I write more on guitar and I play bass in the band. So you were in a stage band in high school, like that kind of band? No, it was like a rock band. I mean, bad rock band. Oh, a high school band.

It was an early attempt. Not like marching band. No, or the other thing. There was a stage band in my high school that I did not excel at. Yeah. Yeah, I was part of it. And I told them I learned how to read music, and I never did. So I improvised badly, thinking that no one could hear the bass.

I was a guitar player, and I chose to do the bass, because I had a bass. I didn't know how to play the bass. Yeah. And I really thought that I could just hide it. You could just turn it down, and nobody would notice you weren't doing anything. Yeah, I thought... Nobody would miss those low frequencies. Right.

How important is the bass to a band? It's not that, really. No, I think it is. Isn't it? It is very. I'm kidding. It's a spine, right? Yeah.

Well, I guess it's all important really uh-huh yeah now like growing up with the with the musicians and families you never got any of that judgment of like you're throwing your life away what are you doing um no not really i mean there you know there was enough going on sort of early on that it didn't seem like a total um delusion on my part to try to do it you know know, there was enough encouragement. But, you know, there was definitely some sort of markers along the way. I mean, you know, the sort of bigger thing for me, at least on my, you know, like my family's radar,

and the band thing was all good, but then in 1996 I wrote this song called that thing you do for for Tom Hanks movie and that was like a big door opener and how do you do how does that happen okay like walk me through how you write a song for a movie and what you do with it I mean how old you at that point when it came out I was like 27 or 28 I actually probably wrote it like a year or so before that I mean you're already in the band founds a Well, it all kind of happened at once. It was a weird time for me.

There's a lot going on. Because that was a huge song, right? It was a huge song for me. Was it charted, didn't it? It charted, yeah. And the movie did pretty well. But the way that happens is that there's a lot of these things you hear about of like they're looking for stuff.

And I at the time had just um with a music publishing company and part of what they're supposed to do is like tell you about this stuff that's out there and it's kind of like most of it's like really cattle call you know yeah i mean you learn later that you can just waste your whole life taking shots at this stuff and mostly it's a waste of time but for whatever reason um you know i got really lucky with that one i did a demo i heard you know they called me up um the people from this music publishing company yeah it's a movie it's set in the early 60s it's kind of beetle-esque it's about a band and this is really up your alley you should take a shot at this and so i did this i saw the movie by the way

oh cool i saw it yeah yeah so it's not the beetle like band exactly yeah so i did this demo with uh two friends of mine mike viol Viola, who is another songwriter who lives out here, and a guy named Andy Chase who was in the band Ivy with me. We did this demo. The demo sounded great. It just sounded like an old record, and we knew it was pretty good, you know? Yeah. But we kind of sent it in and forgot

about it, and then they actually ended up using it. So you get money on the initial payment for putting the song in the movie, and then you get money because it goes on a record. Did it go on the initial payment for putting the song in the movie, and then you get money because it goes on a record. Did it go on the record? Yep.

And you wrote it. How does it break down? Because I don't know if people know this, because I'm not sure I know it. I'm not sure I know it either, but if checks suddenly start showing up that didn't show up before, it's what happens. But if you write the song, and if you have the publishing on the song, that's the place to be.

That's one of the good places to be. It's not as good as it was back then, even. Really? I mean, being a writer is better than not being a writer. A lot of bands break up because they don't understand that, and then one guy writes the hit song, and he gets a million dollars, and everyone else is still broke. And they're like, fuck you. Yeah. I mean, that happens all the time.

Yeah. You know, so. Just some dudes who are getting together and then when the deal goes down and the thing becomes a hit, they don't understand why. Yeah, then you learn after the fact. Like, oh. He's driving a better car than us

and why we're still on the bus. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. Now, when you, who was your, like when, like, did you have a, like, because whenever I think about people that do what you do, which is stupid, I get this whole Tin Pan All alley kind of like, you know, you're very aware of the business of music early on. And, you know, you could sort of focus on creating specific types of music to make money off of.

And that's like a whole job unto itself. That's really not the sort of rock and roll dream. really not the sort of rock and roll dream yeah i mean i i guess i never um saw myself as being like the front man in a rock band or something i felt like somebody that was a good um executor of ideas like i could work with a lot of different people and figure out what they were going for yeah and try to help get there and it's it's not that different like if somebody calls me says we need a song about this or that sounds like this or that musical theater kind of thing, which I ended up getting a little into too, where it's like, okay, here's what's happening in the story. We need a song to help tell this. I like kind of solving those puzzles with songs.

And it's a different part of your brain than just like, I want to be the front guy in a rock band. But you wanted to be in a rock band. I wanted to do it. I was like a Beatle freak as a kid, and I wanted to be in the Beatles. You can definitely hear that in the music that you do. Yeah. Which Beatle? You know, I probably was more of like a Paul guy.

Yeah, you feel like a Paul guy. Yeah. You said that with total disdain. Yeah, come on, man. No, but I mean, you know, I like everything about the Beatles, but then I didn't even know there were really other bands for a long time as a kid. I just knew about the Beatles, and then later I started listening to other stuff, and I was like, oh, I like this, too.

Yeah, isn't that weird? Beatles songs are almost like Christmas carols. I'm always amazed at how many... Somebody actually wrote them is a weird thought. Like, somebody sat down and went, all right. Yeah, but even when I go back to it now, when I listen to certain Beatles albums, I'm like, where the fuck did this come from?

How did this happen? It's never happened again. I mean, people can cop it or learn from it. But there are certain records where you're like, at the time it came out, it's like, how does this even fucking happen? Like Revolver? Where does that come from, that music? They also just, to me, seemed like they figured out this way to just be able to do whatever they felt like doing on that day and still was the Beatles. Whereas the Rolling Stones, it was just like they kind of had this shtick and that was it.

And it was a cool shtick, but it was like, you know, I just felt like the Beatles could have probably done the Rolling Stones shtick if they wanted to one day, but they couldn't have necessarily gone that way. Musically. Yeah, I mean, it's a vibe, but it's like- You're not going to be able to manifest the sexual menace of the Rowan City. I can't. Many people can't. I feel you just turned it on and off right there, didn't you? Yeah. But I'm tired, so that's it.

I have a story about that. When I was at the... I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Have you been? No. Really? Oh, yeah. We did go. We did, yeah. And you go to the area where... It's actually the Beatles and Stones are of Fame. Have you been? No. Oh, yeah, we did go. We did, yeah.

And you go to the area where it's actually the Beatles and Stones are sort of in the same vicinity. And they have the Stones. They've got a bunch of costumes, a few contracts, whatever. And then there's a video monitor. And it's running some performance footage from probably the early 70s. Jumping Jack Flash and some behind-the-scenes stage stuff. But it's this one video running. And then you go literally on the opposite wall is the Beatles wall. Jumpin' Jack Flash and some behind-the-scenes stage stuff. Yeah. But it's just one video running.

And then you go, like, literally on the opposite wall is the Beatles wall. Right. And there they have a screen, and around the screen is every Beatles record. And it's sort of like one record will light up, and it'll be the Beatles and George Martin, you know, talking about that, you know, with some, you know, with some, that document, that sort of, it's documentary, but it's sort of moving the images around. It's not real documentary footage. And it just went through all the Beatles records. And sort of about every two Beatles records,

you'd hear the Rolling Stones footage start over again. Right. It's a lot more info. To me, that sort of explains the difference. So you're never a Stones guy? No, I was. I like the Stones. You have a huge Stones poster. I just realized. Yeah, I. So to me, that sort of explains the difference. Right. So you're never a Stones guy anymore? No, I was. I like the Stones. You have a huge Stones poster.

I just realized. Yeah, I'm not... Right behind your head. I'm not going to get too defensive. Right. No, I mean, I love the Beatles. There's no way around it. And I don't know...

You know, the Stones thing, I was a big Keith Richards guy. I mean, I aspired to... The rock and roll ideal for me was just drugs and come on, let's fucking play the blues. Yeah. You do not come from that. That wasn't an accusation. It was more of a statement posed as a question. The funny thing is that some of the pop bands are actually like the most depraved. I'm not talking about myself, but I'm saying like when you actually get to know-

Well, drop some names, man. But it's true. Especially these guys. You meet these kids that are in like heavy metal bands or whatever and they're just totally professional

and like you know they're like keep business cards on file and they're really careerist well heavy metal's a little it's a little bit labor intensive

man you know I don't know but it's just like I know a lot of guys that are in these like power pop bands that are just really fuck ups and like maybe it's because

of the fact that it's not really commercial music so it's like this feudal thing to begin with on some level. Well, it is more commercial now. It seems like, because I used to talk to John Daniel, your man, we were friends years ago, and he's the one who actually taught me the difference between what is defined as pop

and what is rock, and this whole world of music that could just not find a market. I guess, who are the seminal power pop bands? Like Big Star and... It depends how you define it. I don't really know. Thin Lizzy. They were big, though. Yeah.

I guess Cheap Trick is sort of considered a power pop band, but they were big. Definitely, yeah. Cheap Trick is one of my favorite bands. Right. But they had this small window, I guess. But they were kind of unique in the way they structured songs, and it seemed a little sweeter, and then a little more melodic. And for most of the 60s and 70s, and most of the 80s, everything was steamrolled by rock and roll and synth music, and there was just never really a place for it.

And now it seems like most of the bands, certainly the young bands, are from a pop tradition. I mean, Green Day is sort of a power pop band. Yeah, totally are, especially what they're doing right now. They just put out this record that's just really power pop. And now you're putting out country records. I am? No, didn't you? Wasn't The Last Fanzoine a little twangy?

It had its twangy moments. It's definitely not a country record. Did Jonathan produce that one? Did he produce? No, he's not a... I mean, he might be a record producer, but he's a manager.

He doesn't get in the studio with us. Oh, that's too bad. He's kind of a... He's got an ear for it. He does. He does. He has a really good ear

for songs. I mean, he... You know, I think that's his thing. He's got an ear for songs, but... Well, getting back to defining power pop,

let's do that. Help me out. I don't really know. I mean, I think that if people use that with us, we sometimes see it as a little bit of an insult because it's almost like you're just trying to recreate something that already happened, and you're just trying to ape it.

I think we do more of picking bits and pieces of music history that we like and then trying to put our own spin ape it. And I think we do more of picking bits and pieces of music history that we like and then trying to put our own spin on it. And I think with our band, we might do a song that sounds like 70s FM radio or it might sound like 60s Beach Boys stuff or it might sound like 80s New Wave. But for us, it's like putting some kind of lyric

on top of that that you might not expect. And it's that juxtaposition that makes it seem a little fresh, we hope. Right, but it's not quite a... It's not a satire. It's a homage, kind of. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. You're good at copying sounds.

We're definitely good at copying sounds. But, yeah, I mean, there's a fine line. Like, sometimes it can get close to the point of being, like, just, you know, silly or just too funny. And it can get close to the point of being just silly or just too funny. And then there's other times where we try to go completely the other way and be really sincere. And we sometimes felt like people don't give us credit for actually having songs that actually are just straight ahead and sort of heartfelt and not jokey at all. And you feel you don't get the credit for it because they're used to you being sort of, I don't know if the word is glib, but at least kind of tongue-in-cheeky. Well, yeah, and I think the biggest song we had was probably also the most novelty-esque song we had.

Stacey's Mom? Yeah, so that's what most people, if they know us at all, they probably know that. Right. They don't know that there's other stuff that has nothing to do with that. There's a lot of sweet, heartfelt songs. there's stuff that has nothing to do with that. There's a lot of sweet, heartfelt songs. But yeah, but I mean, that song,

I think that kind of music, that kind of music, when it locks in, it locks into all ages. Like, you know, there's that sound of pop or even that car sound of that song. I mean, little girls can like it and, you know, like middle-aged ladies can like it. It's sweet. Yeah, I'll take sweet.

That's okay. Sweet is good. But the guitar sound on Stacy's mom is like, it's exactly the cars. It is. In fact, Rick Okasik apparently thought that we actually sampled it, and I heard him say that in an interview somewhere, which we didn't. Did you get any flack from Okasik? No, no flack.

No? I don't think he said it in like a, you know, like, I'm going to sue you kind of way. No accusations? Yeah. But I mean, it in like a, you know, like I'm going to sue you kind of way. No accusations? Yeah. But I mean, it was an obvious homage. Yeah. We're trying to deny it. And the video was an obvious homage.

Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff, yeah. That's kind of a dirty video. You know, I went and watched it today for some reason. Yeah. It's a little sexy, a little charged up. Yeah. Our friend Chris Applebaum directed that, and we kind of left it to him.

And we were a little bit concerned when we showed up the day of that shoot. And there was like, I guess in my mind, when I wrote the song, I was picturing more like, you know, older teenagers. But when he cast the video, it was like really little kids. And we were like, is this okay? Little kids being kind of racy. Yeah. Kind of sexual. Sexual.

Somehow we got away with that. But it definitely was. And then not that long after that, there was this whole thing with MTV where Janet Jackson sort of exposed herself at the Super Bowl. Sure. And then they got much more conservative right after that. So that video would have never been on the air. Just made it under the wire.

Yeah. Like six months later, they got really conservative. Your borderline pedophilia video. Yeah. I know. We had to totally change our strategy. God, borderline pedophilia video. Yeah, I know. We had to totally change our strategy. Guys, no more pedophilia for at least two quarters. Good for you, man.

But that song came out after you guys split up for a while. What does it mean when a band, like, I mean, because you guys seem to get along. Because I don't talk to many band people. Yeah. We never really split up. It's just between every record, we kind of stopped being a band for a while. And I think Chris, in particular, has always, even from just the beginning, has had really mixed feelings about whether he wants to be doing it at all.

And between every record, he's like, I don't know if I want to make another record. And it always ends up taking us three or four years. What else does he do? I don't know. Well, that's the thing. Eventually, he realizes maybe nothing, and he wants to do it again, but he doesn't love the whole process.

He doesn't always love touring. What about the other two guys? They would get pretty impatient, and be like, what the fuck are we doing? Why aren't we playing? Why aren't we recording? Those guys, they're usually itching to do more. And how long have you known those two guys?

Well, Jody, who's the guitar player, I actually... He's good, man. Yeah, he's amazing. I saw you when you were here at the Troubadour. I met him when he was looking for a bass player for his own band in like about 1991. And I played bass for that band. It was called The Bell Tower. I met him through an ad in The Village Voice,

and he had just moved back from England. He's American, but he had just moved back from where he'd been living in England. I played with him for a minute, and then that band sort of ended. And then when we started up Fountains of Wayne, I said, maybe you should come do this with us. And then Brian, we got introduced by a mutual friend.

He was the drummer in another kind of power pop band called The Posies from Seattle. Yeah, I know them. Yeah, and he was living in Seattle. And we met him, and we got together with him, and we played a bunch of Steve Miller songs. And in like 10 minutes, we're like, all right, this is the guy. What did you do, Fly Like an Eagle? Jet Airliner.

Yeah, I just did all of them. And our manager at the time. Why Steve Miller? Because we like Steve Miller. And it wasn't like a plan. We just got in a room and said, all right, well, how do we audition a drummer? And we just by accident started playing Steve Miller songs, and he knew them all. Because I'm a joker.

Yeah. So our manager was really mad at us because we picked the drummer that lives in Seattle. And we all lived in New York then. Right. He said, can't you find a guy in New York? You're going to have to fly him in every time you do anything. Yeah. But that's what we did.

And you stuck with him. Yeah. So, like, I saw, when I went to see The Truvador. Yeah. Because I knew Stacy's mom. I knew a couple other songs. But, like, my girlfriend, who is 29, you know, she's like, oh, I'm cranky. Usually.

No, she just works hard. Okay. She's not usually cranky. She's just, but, you know, she was so excited that, you know, I was able to get us into your show. And you have fanatic, you know, you have real fans. But it was very cute. I'd never seen a tamer bunch. And also, you know, families...

No mosh pit. There was no mosh pit. There was literally a family. There was a father, a mother, and two kids who looked like they were 12 or 13 who were right up front at that show, and they were all singing and dancing along to your songs. Yeah. It's a wholesome experience, our shows. But that's sweet.

Yeah. I mean, does that make you feel good? It is actually really nice when you see two generations that both actually like the music, and it's not just like the parents dragging the kids or vice versa, you know? Yeah, it's fascinating. It's great. And you don't have, it seems like all your fans are pretty thoughtful, sensitive people. You've cultivated a...

Not all of them, but many of them are. Really? What's the biggest problem? We had a guy come on stage in Glasgow early on. Well, fucking Glasgow. Yeah. He came on, Chris and I were doing an acoustic duo kind of song, and he came on behind us completely naked

and took a piss in a glass and drank his own piss during the song. Really? Yes. Well, I'm going to think that that was probably... So that guy was not at the Troubadour show that you saw? No, but I'm going to also think that he probably wasn't... Whatever that had to do with...

Nothing to do with being a fan. Yeah, it was not about Fountains of Wayne. Right. Or maybe he misunderstood the name of your band. Yeah, he got confused. But Glasgow is the most drunken, fucked up place I've ever been in my life. Yeah, it's not a good example. You're right.

I like the city, but I've never seen more public drunkenness in my life. Yeah. Where else have you been? Have you been all over the world? We've done a lot of traveling. Not all over. I mean, we've done a fair amount in japan which has um always been like a good place for us we're medium in japan so we we usually go

to japan at least once or twice a year and we've been going there since like the late 90s so that's good and we do some europe stuff um but uh we don't we don't you know in general we don't tour as much as we used to either i mean we seem very well adjusted and healthy and not too worn out. Oh, thanks. I look well rested. For a guy in a band. Yeah. Well, we're not touring right now.

When was the last tour that you went on, the one I saw you on? Yeah, when was that? That was like in the spring or something. Maybe a year ago or so. I don't know. Was that the last time you were on? Yeah. I mean, lately we've been kind of doing these things.

We're just doing a couple weeks here and there through two, three weeks, and it's not really like this grueling experience. Why do you do it? Why do we keep doing it? Well, you seem like, you know, it seems like you're diversifying a bit. You're doing some producing, right? I've done a bunch of producing, yeah. Who have you produced?

Oh, I mean, I've made some records with, let's see, they might be giants I did some stuff with. That makes sense. Yeah, they're friends in New York, and I worked with them. I mean, there's a band called Motion City Soundtrack that I did a record with, Dashboard Confessional. Yeah, I've heard of them. Yeah, I was into record producing more.

It's not my favorite gig, but I like it. Now, what is it like? Okay, so now I can into record producing more. It's not my favorite gig, but I like it. Now, what is it like? Okay, so now I can learn some more things. When somebody producing, I mean, when somebody like, they might be giants who have a very defined sound, and certainly it's up the alley of pop, but it's unique, and you talk to them about producing, what are they looking for from you?

I think with them, it's just, they like working with their friends and we just were friends already and we have kind of similar, I mean, I was a huge fan of theirs early on. But what do you bring to it? Like,

what are the conversations? It's just a different guys, in a context like that, it's just like, we might as well be in a band together for a week. I don't think there's

any hierarchy of like, somebody's the boss or anything. It's more just like, let's bring in somebody else's ideas and kick them around. But like, what ideas?

Like, bring up the keyboard a little more. Maybe you should sing this that way. What if we did this? What if we added a layer of... Yeah, I mean, I kind of feel like my skills that I might bring to a situation is like an arranger, like figuring out if somebody just plays a raw song

on an acoustic guitar or a keyboard, what can we do with this? Right. And also just sort of structuring it so that it's like stickier than it might be.

You know, how do you make it stickier? You mean like stickier in the brain? Yeah, like... Is that a word people use? Well, you know,

I mean, a lot of like making a song memorable is just repeating the right parts and getting rid of the other parts. So it's sort of moving the pieces around and saying, like, let's take this part and do this 25 times in a row, and then everyone will remember it.

So stuff like that. And then just, I don't know, production is just a lot of little micro decisions that add up to something that hopefully just hits you as one thing. And when you write songs, because you've got a good sense of the hook and you've got a good sense of emotion. I mean, how connected are you to it? Does it come from your life? I've asked this to other songwriters, and they're like, no, it's songwriting.

I feel like, for me, my own life gets in there indirectly, but a lot of the stuff stuff at least for the band for fountains of wayne a lot of this stuff is it's sort of making up characters and telling stories and and it's it's more like fiction but then your own life kind of creeps in there and whether you want it to or not you're married i am yeah you got kids i got two daughters wow how old are they nine and five you're like a full-blown adult. It's all happening. How old are you? I'm 44.

Okay. All right. I'm 48. Yeah. We're getting up there, man. I know. Are you friends with the Ween guys? I think we've crossed paths.

I'm not friends with them. You know, I'm a huge fan. We were just talking about Ween today, because did you ever hear this Pizza Hut jingle that they did? I heard about it. You've got to check this out. I guess Pizza Hut asked them to do a I heard about it. You've got to check this out. I guess Pizza Hut asked them to do a commercial at some point for this pizza that had

the cheese inside the pizza. Right. I remember those. And inside the crust. Yeah. So they delivered these demos or whatever, like these jingles, to Pizza Hut. And they did a clean version and a dirty version, as if Pizza Hut would want a dirty version. Yeah, we'll go with the filthy one. Anyway, it's on YouTube, and it's not worth me singing it for you,

but you should check it out. Well, the only reason I ask is that I talked to Aaron Freeman, Aaron Freeman and Gene Wien, and he's sort of moving away from it. He just moved out here, or he's moving out here, and he wants to get involved in animation and soundtrack. Yeah, well, that's the thing. I mean, I think our whole attitude toward being in a band at this point is like,

we wouldn't necessarily start a band right now, but we have this band and it's fun and it's a good band and we have people that still want to come see us, so we keep doing it, but we do it and then we don't do it for a while. And at least for me, I have gotten, you know, really interested in doing other stuff that has nothing to do with it

and like television stuff or whatever. What about the other guys? Are they like, what the fuck? No, I mean, you know, really interested in doing other stuff that has nothing to do with it, and like television stuff or whatever. What about the other guys? Are they like, what the fuck? No, I mean, everybody's different with four different personalities. I mean, Brian, the drummer, is always busy. He's touring right now with a band called Jesus and Mary Chain.

Oh, yeah. It's a big band. Yeah, it's bigger than us. So he's a guy. Yeah, he's working. He's doing stuff. Jody has his own solo stuff that he does and plays. You know, Chris, he's the front man of our band.

And so I think for him, he's never been a guy that wants to be a chameleon and like, hey, let me put on a different hat and be this other thing. He just likes to sing his songs and play. And when he's not doing that, he likes to just chill out. And he lives up in Western Mass, you know, kind of out in the woods. And he's just like, he moved out of Nework city as soon as this kind of got up and running yeah and um that's like his style you know and don't you don't you envy that sometimes i totally do but you know we're very like we're very different in that way but but do you guys talk

a lot or i mean honestly now no because we when we're you know we've we've been talking since we were 18 so you know we talk i mean we email all the time and we do business together but like do we hang out the way we used to no we totally don't so there's no there's no urgency anymore it must be kind of relaxing to not have that kind of uh to put not put that importance of the need to go out there and tour and risk being tragic. Yeah, I hope it doesn't get tragic. I mean, there's definitely been a lot. Well, no, you're beloved. It's hard to get.

I guess that doesn't really protect you from that. But I'm saying that you all seem okay. Like, there's not one of you that's sort of like, oh, we're going to have to go out because, you you know i don't think anybody of the four of us would do it if they just dreaded it and hated it i don't think it's like i think everybody still really likes especially the performing part i think they do it because it's fun to do and hopefully make a little money but but it's you know not not that much money is mostly because still like playing but none of you guys ever really had the dream of being superstars or rock stars i No. I mean, we all did at some point. But, you know, like, you just evolved with that.

Yeah, tell me about that. Because, you know, that's sort of interesting to me. Because actually John Daniel was, you know, when we were buddies, like, you know, he brought something up to me that, you know, sort of changed my life around. Like, a grown-up is someone who realizes their limitations. Yeah. Well, he himself, I mean, he was like an aspiring rock star and had a band and record deals and all that stuff. I knew him when he was, you know, just started, you know, he was working for the manager of The Cure, and he sort of hit a rough patch. Right.

He was producing, he had that band in New York with the dude Shane, that kind of, I don't remember the name of that band, do you? It wasn't Candy. He's obviously in Candy, but he's a very impressive cat. Yeah. He's got a real love of the music business. Yeah, yeah. But he also remembers to actually enjoy what he's doing,

which a lot of people don't. He seems like a guy that just still has fun on a day-to-day basis and like doesn't get too worked up about stupid shit and now no because he you know he came out on top right you know but uh you know the the the path of the the artist or the musician you know it's just littered that road is just littered with broken dreams and people that are bitter and fucking well one thing i've found is that um you know i mean this probably goes for all entertainment but definitely as a musician if you're out there trying to like make things happen whether it's your band or trying to get songs in some other filmed entertainment or something it's like most stuff doesn't happen most stuff doesn't pan out and you can just sit around being like pissed off and depressed all the time.

Or you can just sort of accept that that's just the nature of it. That's your job. Yeah. And it's also just like at this point, I've had enough like positive reinforcement to know like, well, I'm pretty good at this. You know, it's like there might be people that hate what I give them and don't want to use it. Right. But I'm not going to suddenly think like I'm a failure because of that. You know, I just like, well, this wasn't right for use it. Right. But I'm not going to suddenly think like I'm a failure because of that. You know, I just like,

well, this wasn't right for whatever this context was. But you guys put out what? Five or six records? Five records? Yeah, I guess six. What did we do? What did we do?

Well, we put out, I think we put out five albums and then there was one that was like this kind of B-sides compilation with a lot of stuff on it. So Fountains of Wayne, the very first album,

didn't really, was it not a major release or what? That was a major label release, yes. It was a big record, it was your introductory record. Did it provide the record company hope and excitement? I think they thought it was going to do better than it did. It did okay, but it wasn't like this smash. And who were you touring with when you guys toured on the record? The first tour we did, we did a couple weeks with the Lemonheads.

That was like our first actual tour. Yeah, of course, opening. And they were really big then. And then the second tour we did was opening for the Smashing Pumpkins, which was in arenas. And we were friends with those guys, and they were doing these, like... Was that the second record? No, that's still our first record.

We had barely played at all at that point, and they asked us to come and do these, like, arena shows with them. Yeah, yeah. And... How was that? I mean, I can see... Well, it made us get our act together really fast, because we really were pretty green as a band, and we right away had to go play in front of these audiences that were huge

and also totally indifferent. Right. I mean, it's pretty sweet rock, but it's still pretty hard rock. Our band? No, Smashing Pumpkins. Oh, Smashing Rock? Yeah. I mean, but they were also, at that point, the biggest band in the world.

I mean, they were huge. And so we were just like something they had to sit through. And did did you feel that i mean i can't yeah but it was but that's okay it was fun it was like for us just it was fun to be on a big stage for the first time like that and and uh right and then the sort of half-filled arena young people are sort of like no the opening band yeah exactly so it's it's a rite of passage and you guys were you were friends with the smashing pumpkins we were yeah do you Are you still friends with him? Well, James Eha and I are really good friends. Yeah.

And he hasn't actually been in the Smashing Pumpkins at this point. Right, for a while. Yeah, for like 12 or 13 years. But I can't believe we're getting so fucking old. It's that long ago already. I know, I know. I feel like we're talking about, you know. Isn't that wild? And we put out our first wax cylinder.

We put out our sheet music. Yeah, when the machines came out. Yeah, I know. We were all very excited. I know. Thank God for Edison. But, okay, so then, okay, so you opened for the Smashing Pumpkins, and then what happened? At that point, were you like, we're going to make it.

We're going to be huge. Was that a discussion you guys had? We didn't really sit around and talk like that, to be honest. Of course not. And it was also just part of the thing at the time. has had? We didn't really sit around and talk like that, to be honest. And it was also just part of the thing at the time is just, you know, even if that's what you wanted, in the mid-90s you couldn't really sit around and talk about it like that.

But, I mean, we were disappointed when songs didn't get as much airplay as we hoped they would. Which was one of the sort of sleepers of your catalog, do you think, that you had a lot of hopes for? I don't know. They all are. I mean, what do you want me to say?

I thought they could all be hits, you know? I thought they were all, like, the biggest hits ever. I can't pick one. I think a lot of people thought that early on. You know, the first record, there was a lot of catchy songs on it, but whatever. There was a few, like, you know, not to compare, but, like to compare, but I'm surprised, because in my mind, when I listen to specifically the type of music you do, or the Figs' first record, where everything is just popping and catching and it's tight, it's sort of like, why isn't this just all over the place?

It's just the time wasn't ready for it. Because I see Green Day and a couple of those other bands, they're doing maybe not even as good a version of that type of music now. And they're huge. It was just like the times weren't synced up. The little girls weren't ready. Yeah, who knows? I mean, it's a lot of things.

And I think, I guess at a certain point point we stopped thinking of it in terms like that and started thinking of it more in terms of, like, the coolest thing is if you have this really defined personality that's your own thing that you came up with. And I feel like our band, the reason that we've lasted a long time is that it kind of has that. It's like a thing that if you like it – and not everybody does, but if you like it, that's where you go to get it. Right. And it's not really exactly like something else. Right. So you just find your own little niche, and then you sort of appreciate that you have that,

and that can keep you going. And especially now, because of what's happened and how the music business has completely imploded, and there's no, you know, there's a lot of people with that old school mentality still like, you've got to get a hit, and you've got to be on the radio. But really, like, the new mentality is much more about

you just do your thing and nurture it and like have your fans that feel connected to you. Right. And if you have that, that's like the most valuable thing you can have

because it'll last, hopefully. Yeah, I'm living that. Yeah, exactly. In what I do. Right. But like that's just... And you scale back your expectations maybe at the same time,

but it's like... I have, but it took a long time. Right, right. I mean, it really took a long time. I mean mean i kind of always knew that i wasn't for everybody but there was a good chunk of time there i thought i was definitely for more people than were showing up yeah yeah and maybe but maybe it grows that and they've you know but you're not working so hard to like change yourself you get humbled and either you're going to accept it or you're going to fight it right and if you fight humility it. Right. And if you fight humility, it's never pretty.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I think that's a bumper sticker. You can tell that. It is. Yeah. Why don't you use it for a song? Yeah, I like that.

But you guys realize that at some point, it's like clearly, because I realized that recently, too, after talking to, like the way I think about music, even what we're talking about with the Stones and with the Beatles, and when I interviewed Jack White, is that with music, especially popular music, especially with rock music, it's not necessarily about musicianship

as much as it is having a thing. Yeah. And I think that, I don't know if a lot of people really think of it that way. It's like, you would know your record immediately. If a fan of yours, they know your sound. Your sound is defined. Your jack sound is defined.

There's plenty of people that are sort of like, who the fuck is this? I don't know, it sounds like that other guy. But if you have a defined thing that no one else really does, then you've done something amazing in music. And also, you can be much more commercially successful that way. I mean, a classic example from sort of my generation of bands is Wilco where they had this big fight

with their label trying to write hit singles and stuff and they kind of stuck to their guns. And I mean, most bands would kill for Wilco's career now.

I mean, Wilco is a huge successful band that plays to tons of people everywhere. But again, they just completely got out of that game of like trying to have

a commercial radio hit. Do you know him? I've met them all. We played a show or two with them, and we have the same lawyer. Isn't that funny? Everyone's connected by a few Jewish guys. Yeah, the music business especially. Yeah, the music business.

It's not Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. It's Six Degrees of some guy named Saul. Yeah, actually, our Jewish lawyer's not Jewish. Oh, good. Well, that's good, I guess. I don't know why I just said it's good. It seemed like the right thing to say in that moment. That's good.

Were you bar mitzvahed? No, I wasn't. I got a tennis racket instead of a bar mitzvah when I was 13. Wait. Were you given a choice? I was a choice. Yeah. I took the tennis racket.

Do you have siblings? I have a sister, yeah. Is she a musician? Not a professional musician, but she does play, yeah. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And your parents were like, yeah, that's my son, the musician. I just saw in a window on Robertson, like yesterday, there's this nice Jewish guy's calendar.

Have you ever seen that? There's like a guy sitting at the piano. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know what that is. A nice Jewish guy's calendar? Yeah, it's just a calendar. It's just photos.

That's it. They're anonymous nice a calendar. It's just photos. That's it. They're anonymous nice Jewish guys. It's really hilarious. So now you license a lot of songs to television still? License? I don't know how that works. Yeah, well, I mean, there's two things. I mean, there's people sometimes call up and want to license a song on your record for something,

just put it in the background of a show or whatever they want to do with it. That's good coin, huh? It can be. Not as good as it used to be. just put it in the background of a show or whatever they want to do with it. That's good coin, huh? It can be. Not as good as it used to be. Again, it's the same thing. Everything's gotten sort of less good coin. But that still exists, and depending on what it is, it can be good. Well, where's the good coin in music?

How does one make it? I mean, for me, it's more just like adding a whole bunch of stuff up together. It's not so much like jackpots all the time, you know? Right. But yeah, with TV, sometimes people license your songs, and other times, for me, somebody will ask you to write something for them. That's more fun for me, you know? Yeah.

But also, if you get that, did you ever write any jingles or ads? A little bit, yeah. Like what? I actually just did one recently, and it came from a guy who, he's a Fountains and Wayne fan and that's why he called me. Sweet. And it was a commercial

for New York State Lottery and it was like zombies in it. Yeah. So they were trying to find a song to work in this zombies thing and, you know, it's one of these things that almost never happens

where he's like, can you come up with something for this? And i had an idea basically as soon as he said it and i went to the studio that night and recorded it in like an hour and sent it to him and they all approved it and it was done and i was like whoa that's the greatest i wish i wish that's how life works you know like that never happens i mean usually it's like 18 levels of approval and they don't end up using it and right right you know you waste at the end, they don't end up using it. Right, right. You know, you waste all this time, and then they don't want to pay you. Is there singing on it? Yeah, yeah.

It's me singing. For the New York State Lottery? Yeah. So if anyone wants to go see that. But this guy, Jim, that hired me, he does only great commercials, and I checked out his reel, and he's like, they're all awesome and funny. And now that puts you in that sort of world of doing that. Yeah, I don't know if it does.

We'll see. That was one. And have you ever done an original score for TV? A little bit, yeah. I mean, people think of me more for songs than score, so every once in a while I'll get called for a score thing, but it's not really... Have you done an original song for TV?

Original song? Yeah. Yeah, tons. I mean, tons. We did like... I'm just trying to think of some stuff. I did a Christmas special with Stephen Colbert. I work a lot with a guy named David Jabberbaum, who's a comedy writer, who used to be at the Daily Show for many years.

So he and I wrote a Broadway show together called Cry Baby. And then we wrote this thing for Stephen Colbert, which was... Cry Baby, the John Waters? It was a John Waters film, and then they turned it into a Broadway... Oh, you did that? I did do that. I didn't do the movie. No, I know that.

Yeah, I did the Broadway version, which... And you had to write original music for that? Yes. But Cry Baby was a musical, wasn't it, the movie? Yeah, and on Broadway, it was different songs. It was like they started over. And it was, I mean, basically, like, they had this huge hit with Hairspray, and so it was the same producers, like, well, we can do it again with Hairspray. And so it was the same producers.

Like, well, we can do it again. We could take another John Waters movie and have another big hit. And it didn't quite work out. But the show was okay. And, you know, I really like a lot of the songs in it. Did you work with John Waters? I did. Well, he was kind of, like, around.

He didn't work on it on a day-to-day basis. He made sure that, you know, it was okay by him. He was kind of, like, approving or not approving things. It's fascinating to me because you're living the life of a real – it is Tim Pannelli. It is like sort of applying the skill of songwriting to a very conscious commercial success that isn't what most people think of as singer-songwriter. Singer-songwriters are sort of point-of-view guys. Yeah, yeah.

I don't write from my diary. I feel sad today. Right. It's not an image kind of thing. It's sort of like a practical skill that is challenging. And I imagine when you're looking at how Broadway works and how to structure songs that have the build that would arc through an entire show.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm really... I mean, it's true. I mean, that kind of like craft side of it is still really appealing to me. And I think sometimes when you are a person who writes like that, you know, the downside is people think like, oh, well, it's like some kind of trick and there's no real like emotion or something. But that's not really true at all. I think like those kind of songs can actually end up being more emotional if you do it right,

and depending on the context that you're writing for. Oh, yeah. Well, the power, I mean, the generation before us, or maybe even the one before them, I mean, the power of musicals was astounding. I mean, musicals were at the forefront of popular music for years, and they still have a real effect on people. I mean, that's why you see kind of, what do you call them,

when they remake South Pacific or whatever musical... Like a revival. A revival. It's because those songs are so fucking good that they stand the test of time. Totally. And it's a very rare thing to have a song that can transcend for that long.

Yeah. And how long did Cry Baby run? A couple months. Didn't it pan out? Well, it was sort of, you know, nobody was really steering the ship in a way. It was like this idea to like, let's do another one of these John Waters things. And I think there was nobody really decided, or I should say, like there were some differing opinions

about should it be this family fun thing or should it be really John Waters and kind of edgy and dark and adult. And I think in the end it was neither. It wasn't quite John Waters enough to be scandalous or anything, but it also wasn't really something you'd bring your kids to.

Is that something you're interested in, writing an original musical? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you study musicals? No. Do you like them? Generally, no, I don't like them, but I think it's a form that you can do really great stuff with.

I don't know, Book of Mormon, for example, is a good example. Two guys that said, we can make a musical that is great and fun. People love it. And people love it. And it's like this big episode of South Park, basically. But it's awesome. And you can feel the fun they had making it.

I haven't seen it. It's here now. I know. It's in LA. It's really good. I mean, I feel like the best thing about it is just the fact that those guys can pretty much do whatever they want. And so they can go and put something on stage

and it doesn't get wrecked on the way. It doesn't get, nobody like has the authority to tell them not to do something. I didn't have that at all. Like when I,

I was up against all these people that were like these theater like lifers and I was just this guy from this band that for some reason they chose to do this

and it was like, seriously, like every day, like listen kid, like this is the way it's done. And I would just say, well, I don't know. I mean, you just cut the punchline out of this joke.

I mean, I know I'm just the music guy, but, like, there's no joke here anymore. Like, you left the setup and you just cut the punchline. It's like, well, not everything needs to be funny all the time. It's a musical comedy. I don't know. It kind of does, doesn't it? No one's looking at this as, like, well, that's not realistic. Yeah. You know what I mean?'t know. It kind of does, doesn't it? No one's looking at this as like, well, that's not realistic. Yeah.

You know what I mean? I know. There was a lot of talk like that where I was just like, well, I'm just a guy that consumes entertainment. I know I'm not the expert here on Broadway, but this seems like it's just not really entertaining, this little part. And who were these guys? I mean, did you meet or work with anybody you respected? Oh, yeah. I mean, the reason I even agreed to do it was because of the chance to like immediately kind of work with these really top guys. I mean, in particular, Tom Meehan and Mark O'Donnell, who wrote the book and Tom Meehan, these guys, I mean, Tom Meehan wrote Annie, he wrote The Producers and Young Frankenstein. And like, you know, he's just a legendary guy. And Mark O'Donnell, who actually just passed away like a month a month ago sadly but he's also like an incredibly brilliant guy

the two of them wrote Hairspray right and so just getting getting to work with them was unbelievable what did you take away from that I mean was there things

that you learned were there tricks were there moments yeah I mean everything I knew nothing going into it they pretty much taught me everything and then I also met

what are some of the tricks of writing a musical like you know when you had those discussions of you know looking at the book and deciding on the music I mean What are some of the tricks of writing a musical? Like, you know, when you had those discussions of, you know, looking at the book and deciding on the music, I mean, what were some of the things that were kind of important? Well, I mean, I guess one of the things they tell you as a songwriter is that a song in a musical has to keep the story moving. It's not like writing a pop song where you're just repeating the chorus three times.

Like, you can't stop the show. It has to feel like the plot's still moving forward and the story is still being told and if there is a solo moment where the song is like one of those kind of powerful um you know not a ballad but where one character is singing a lament of some kind yeah it still has to reveal the emotion that is part of the arc yeah and it just has to feel like the story's still just happening you can't you don't just stop and do a song and then get back into the show. So that's a little bit of a different mindset

for me as a writer. Yeah. I think the musical sounds fun. I have yet to find the killer project. I would love to do that more. The one thing that it did lead to, I mean, apart from this Colbert thing, which was amazing,

is David Javerbaum and I ended up getting hired to work on a bunch of award shows, like the Tony Awards and the Emmys, where you're basically writing these musical theater songs. Like we did this one for Neil Patrick Harris, which was DJ's idea, but it was called Broadway, It's Not Just for Gays Anymore. And that was the opening song to the Tony's a couple years ago. And it was just like, it killed, you know, it was called Broadway, It's Not Just for Gays Anymore. And it was the opening song to the 20s a couple years ago. And it was just like, it killed, you know, it was a great idea. And Neil killed it. And, you know, so that, in a way, opened more doors for me,

I think, in the theater world than Crybaby had, even though that was a show that I'd worked on for like five years. I mean, and this was a song that we worked on for two weeks, but a lot more people saw it. And they loved it. I mean, yeah, it was song that we worked on for two weeks, but a lot more people saw it. And they loved it. I mean, yeah, it was great.

Just like, good idea, well executed. Do you live in the city now? I live in Riverdale in the Bronx. Yeah. Yeah.

Got a house up there? Yeah. And you got a room with a piano in it? I do, yes. Yeah. Like a real piano?

Yep, a real piano, yeah. That's nice. Now, okay, so, are you going to do

another Fountains of Wayne record? I think so. I don't know. Ask me again shortly. I mean, you know, like I said, between

every record, you know, Chris is sort of deciding whether he wants to do another record, so I imagine we probably will at some point.

So it's up to the singer? Kind of is, yeah. If he doesn't sing, you know, there's no record. But how much, do you guys write together or you just write to the singer? Kind of is, yeah. If he doesn't sing, you know, there's no record. But how much, do you guys write together or you just write all the songs?

No, we both write. We don't really write together. We used to when we started out, and now we just kind of bring them in and we arrange them together. So do you, does it go back and forth with music and lyrics? Like sometimes he'll do music and lyrics and then you'll do music?

No, we both write music and lyrics our own totally. Like just the song's done, that's it. Like I'll bring in a song and it's finished. Oh, okay. And he'll do the same. So on a record it's going to be mixed up between you and him with some writing credit? Yeah, we share the credits. There was one record where we didn't do that, but basically we just split the credits down the middle.

And, you know, that's what we were talking about at the beginning of not wanting to have the fights about who wrote. So we agreed to that early on. But, I mean, partly just as a function of geography, we don't write together, and partly because I think we just got to a point where it was easier to just, rather than trying to explain to somebody

this weird idea that you had, and, hey, you want to help me try to figure out this song about this football player? Yeah, yeah. What the hell are you talking about? You know, it's easier to just do it. Right. I mean, there have been cases where, like, I'll write a song

and the idea is kind of spelled out, but then I just get lazy and don't write the last verse. And so he'll come in and say, you know, like, I got the last three lines for you, maybe. Oh, that's good. But even that, we don't really do so much anymore. Well, as a 44-year-old guy, I mean, what do you find yourself listening to?

Regularly, like when you're doing the iPod thing. Yeah. Who do you go back to? Oh, God. That's always like a weird, like stumping question to me. Because a lot of times it's like I'll be listening to something that has something to do with something I'm trying to work on. So it's almost like reference slash enjoying it at the same time. Well, I find that if I exercise, I get, you know, weirdly, you know, if you look at your iPod sort of history or your iTunes, you can sort of see what you actually listen to.

Yeah. And it's sort of bizarre. It's a lot of stuff that I used to listen to in high school. Yeah. I don't want to be one of those guys, but, you know, I listen to... But music hits you in a different way at that age. music meant so much to me when i was 13 like these records were just you know my entire life the beatles i mean yeah beatles before that but then like you know my went for high school for me it was like the police and the pretenders and like sort of later kinks

yeah yeah and there was a sort of like uh that period, I mean, I just wore those records out. Later Kinks were like Misfits and... Well, that was like Give the People What They Want. Do you remember that record? I was never, like, I've still yet to wrap my mind around the whole Kinks thing. Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing. When I first discovered the Kinks, I didn't know that they had put out records in the 60s because I heard these 80s Kinks, and I just thought they were like another new band like the police or the clash and

the kinks which was which was your kinks album um give the people what they want to have like paranoia oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a good one that's and we did a cover of this song later later on there was this ray davies um like tribute record and we did a cover of um this song called Better Things. Did you ever hear that song? That's an old one, though, isn't it? No, I think it was on that record. Oh, really?

But we did just kind of like a bashed out version of it, and that's a good song. So have you gone back? Ray Davies, by the way, he wrote the liner notes to this tribute record, and you could tell from looking at the liner notes that he didn't actually listen to the record before he wrote the liner notes you know it's hilarious to read them did you ever get to work with him uh no i never got to work with him so okay so the pretenders yeah i mean but yeah like i mean yeah i was very into the police when i was like in you know they're pretty amazing

yeah wow but also i think back then like there just wasn't as much entertainment out there. So having a record, when a record came out, that was a big deal, just a release. And you'd go into the record store and buy it. You'd be so excited. The only audio-visual component was like,

you'd just look at the record cover. Yeah, that's it. And if you were lucky, it opened up. Yeah, and then they started making videos, and it was like, whoa. Yeah. But it was just a bigger deal. It just feels like now, I mean, it's part of the thing.

Putting out a record just doesn't seem like as big a deal anymore. Yeah, where's the cherishing of the actual artifact and whatnot. Yeah. And I mean, that's maybe a function of my age, too. But also, there's just so much entertainment. There's just so much coming out every second. You don't really need that much. And it just makes everything less special.

And then also, the fact that music is something that you can just email to people now. It's weird, right? Yeah, it just makes it really kind of all feel like a little worthless. Yeah, I mean, I'm surprised. I've got a lot of those records I had in high school. Yeah.

But that's all of them, really. And some people are putting out vinyl again. I've got a turntable, and I'll listen to it just to have that feeling of taking it out and putting it on. And I think it does sound a little different and better yeah i but i heard that vinyl's coming back is it um not for me like that but i know i was gonna say like when i finally moved all my cds onto you know i went through

that period where i loaded them all up into iTunes because I had them. Yeah, yeah. It takes like weeks. I know. I moved like four years ago, and I had like thousands of CDs, and I put them in these boxes. And I knew when I was doing it, I'm never going to open these boxes. Again. That's it.

I will never see the end. And now if you actually just want to hear any of those songs that are in those boxes, you just go to YouTube and listen to the song and get it out of your system. Isn't that weird? When am I going to open my note? It's just all free, and you just go listen listen to it and you don't want to hear it anymore yeah i let go of the jewel boxes but i still have all my cds and binders yeah and they're just over in a storage unit and you'll never go you'll never pull them out but aren't you finding

that about a lot of shit i mean at some point i lose some of these books but you know they become like furniture they become cozy yeah like but i'm starting to have that that three quarters a little bit a little bit Yeah. But I'm starting to have that period. It's like quarters a little bit. A little bit. But I'm starting to have that period in my life where I'm like, wow, that thing's not important at all to me. Why do I still have it? I know.

It's like a time capsule. Yeah. But some of them just lose their meaning. Yeah. They don't represent me. I have like, with CDs, I probably have every sort of alternative rock album that was released from 1988 to 1994. i have all of them i used to go to like tower records and just spend like you know 100 bucks just buy anything i had read like one sentence right i'll buy this yeah i heard it was

good yeah and then you know and then i'd never i listened to it once yeah yeah i mean that happens all the time i was that guy too or what i would do is I'd hear one song by one band, and I'm like, I have to have everything that they ever did. So I'd get like six CDs. Right. You'd get really into them. Right. All the year.

Well, I'd want to, but then you'd sort of like, well, I know why this album's the best. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It took them a while to get here. Right. I appreciate the early stuff, but it's not the same. Yeah.

Totally. Well, man, it was good talking to you, Adam. Yeah, thank you for having me. You feel good? I feel pretty good. How about you? I'm good. Do we cover everything we need to do?

I think so. Yeah. I think so. I don't know. What do we need to cover? Anything? It was all very important. Was there a checklist?

Yeah. I forgot to tell you that this was a really important process that I outlined specifically. All right, let's go. I'll introduce you to my girlfriend. We'll see how she is. ... ... ...