WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1005 - Phoebe Robinson

Episode Date: March 28, 2019

Phoebe Robinson knows too well the feeling of being “the only one.” Whether it was being the only black person in her grade, the only woman or person of color on a standup show, or the only person being asked to step out of the line at the airport, the ongoing impact is exhausting. Which is why, as Phoebe tells Marc, she always wants to be doing her own thing on her own terms, from 2 Dope Queens to writing bestselling books to her most recent podcast, Sooo Many White Guys. Also, Phoebe and Marc compare notes on interviewing the Obamas. This episode is sponsored by the Broad City series finale on Comedy Central. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? It's mark maron this

is my podcast wtf welcome welcome how are you everything okay you doing all right i'm gonna talk to uh phoebe robinson today this is my primary social life you're witnessing it uh also i wanted to tell you about my buddy tom rhodes is a comic comic who I've had on the show a couple of times. We go way back. He was actually on episode 158 and then more recently on episode 911. He's done this epic comedy album. All right. I mean, it's like crazy.

It's a culmination of him doing the international circuit for the past 20 years. It's called Tom Rhodes Around the the world and it's three hours long 40 tracks recorded in 24 different cities starting in paris and ending in jerusalem and during the arc of this thing his marriage fell apart so it's it's very personal it's uh it's very global it's very unique and uh you should go get it you can get it on itunes and amazon and the vinyl version is coming out this summer. So that's Tom Rhodes, Around the World. This might be the most epic comedy record ever made.

So, Boulder, Colorado. Interesting thing happened. Nice lengthy show. Hour and a half, two hours. Got loose. Got rambly. Got riffy. And this hasn't happened in a long time i can't say that these type of things don't happen but i'm always sort of astounded when they do boulder's

a great little city and it was a great crowd and i thank everybody for coming out to the boulder theater i do enjoy going there the uh the drive was great which I already told you about last show. But I swear to you, I was on stage maybe 10 minutes. Maybe. And I'm just doing my shit, trying to get a toehold or get a little traction with the crowd, getting it going. look completely composed put together maybe in her 20s holding her phone just wandered all the way down the aisle and right up to the lip of the stage and stood there looking at me with you know just holding her phone just standing there looking at me and you know obviously the audience of 800 or however many were in there took notice and it was awkward and i stopped my show and i said hi what's up she goes nothing uh what basically that i'm paraphrasing and i'm like well is there something i can do she

says no i just wanted to talk and i'm like well i'm you know i'm in the middle of a show maybe maybe not now is a good time she's like no i think it's a good time and and she's like can i just come up there she was she went to get on the stage she was looking at me as if we were the only two people in the room and there was a whole crowd there and i and i could feel them starting to do the thing that crowds do like hey come on what the fuck get out go you know go home go back to your seatway but i got this sense i don't know what was was up with her, but there was just this moment where like she's in trouble somehow because she's not cognizant of what's happening. And she didn't seem drunk. She wasn't stumbling. She wasn't slurring her speech.

I know the drunk vibe. So my initial gut reaction was, you know, she's off res, man. And, you know, there's something up and it might not be good. So I was diplomatic about it. I was like, I don't think this is a good time to talk. I have to do a show. She's like, well, I think it's a good time. And I'm like, you really have to maybe we'll talk later. Why don't we talk later? Let's talk later. And then security came down. I might just be nice. You know, I said to them, I said, just, you know, go go back to your seat or wherever you are. And, you know, we'll deal with it later. And it was sort of like difficult to get her away.

She didn't need to be dragged or anything, but it was difficult to get it through her head. So I thought maybe a manic break. I don't know. And I still don't really know. But the fucked up thing about me is like I was considerate. I was diplomatic. And, you know, there was really part of me that was sort of like, all right, okay, what do you need to talk about? What is so like I had to fight that lack of boundary in myself in that moment whereas i think a lot of

comics would just be like you know well just fuck off you know whatever maybe not i don't want to put dirt you know nasty emotions into the mouths of other comics but it would have it could have been handled differently it could have been a little more abusive but uh out of fear for her sanity i i and my own instinct i just was like nice about it but i do have to admit that there was part of me that's sort of like all right well we can hang out now let's just get through whatever you need to get through and i'll continue the show in a second but that did not happen and i guess she was fucked up i mean you know they got some pretty strong weed in colorado that's the funny thing about colorado it was interesting i was talking to a friend of

mine and i was you know mentioning that colorado you know it's recently not red and it's not that blue and it's definitely you know a white state and uh in a lot of ways, and it's definitely dug in in a conservative way. I mean, there are, I believe, Focus on Family is headquartered in Colorado Springs and there's an Air Force Academy. And there's definitely some serious conservative kind of mountain biking white people, which is, look, I'm not judging. But the funny thing was, is that when i was sort of like you know talking about colorado in a broad sense a friend of mine was like well you know they're

pretty progressive they they got the legal weed policy and i'm like you know that that may be progressive policy but it does not necessarily mean that it's progressive people like i guarantee you there's there's someone out there who says man man, I love weed, but I hate Jews. You know, I mean, you know, weed is weed crosses all boundaries. The policy is progressive and proactive and good in the weed legalization way. But let's not mistake free freeing the weed for making everybody a decent person. Right. Right? Right.

Here's my other concern, which I wanted to talk about for some reason, because I don't know if it gets enough lip service. There's a bit of video on the WashingtonPost.com, and the title of it is, Praise to Jesus for forgiveness before state's first Muslimlim woman swears in so a woman a legislator in pennsylvania before a woman the first muslim woman in this state i believe

yeah it says right there was sworn in went to the mic in the proceeding in the state legislature and did a sort of rambling sort of prayer about israel about jesus about the country's foundations in jesus about jesus speaking through george washington it was it was like it wasn't quite speaking in tongues but it was clearly jesus jesus jesus don't forget jesus because jesus is important And I need you to know this before this Muslim woman comes up. There's a lot of evangelical Christians in legislatures that have come through the Republican movement. There's a lot of right wing Christian activist judges in the judiciary. And they've been kind of pushing along for a long time. You know,

there, there are the regular issues of, you know, abortion, which is, you know, a hot button issue in Christian circles and, and one that they have used for traction over the years.

But, but I think what is sort of unspoken and what is kind of creepy to me, and I guess this is commentary. I don't know if it's essentially political commentary in the general ways that our president, he honestly doesn't give a fuck about policy or about anything. He likes being given information that he can twist and use to start shit. He likes starting shit and he likes the people that like him and they're shit starters and that's why they like him they like you push button pushers so he's not really i don't think on top of or uh he's not abreast of the of the policies that he's being handed but he knows that he'll start some shit okay so you know where

i stand but the thing that doesn't get talked about much is how many christians are in policy making positions and evangelicals you know i don't want i don't want to be condescending and i don't want to diminish anyone's uh religion i don't want to mock the myths that define anyone. But there is a strain of Christianity that has a very specific agenda. And the rub here, which I didn't realize until recently, sadly, is that in order for Jesus to come back, the world has to end, which means that means there's a lot of people that want the world to end because they want Jesus to come back more than anything this is just logic so my question has always been is there a chance that that policy is being crafted

to accelerate the prophecy of revelation so this would be prophecy fulfillment policy that's being undertaken by the evangelical wing of this administration, headed off by Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo. And you can see it in a lot of different ways. And the reason why it's tricky and horrifying, you know, environmentally, that if they're deregulating, you know, at just sort of breakneck speed, not only for capitalistic intent,

but also for Armageddon intent, that there is this strange marriage, you know, demonic marriage and dovetailing of, you know, late stage capitalism and evangelical Christian eschatology prophecy. And I guess the capitalists are hedging their bets or they don't give a fuck but uh but they're on board so this weird unification of like radical evangelical end time prophecy baiters and just sort of like let's make the world free for any kind of business no matter what it fucking does to the environment and then you know we'll fix it when the time comes maybe don't worry about that now that's sort of nihilistic and and i imagine at the core of a lot of people that may not be religious who are you know fuck you trump's the best you know fuck

regulation fuck unions fuck uh the environment fuck the new green deal that there that's the third arm of this momentum is that you have you know untethered deregulated capitalists and you have just complete fucking nihilists who don't give a fuck and just want to see it all burn for no reason other than that and then you have a fairly organized and um driven contingent of of christians who are yeah, we'd like it to end for very specific reasons because we've done all we can here and I'm one of the good guys and I'm ready for heaven, fuck this noise.

So that was sort of it. And I think that's a way to sort of frame the sort of obsession with the right-wing Zionism in Israel is that Pompeo, he's on team jesus and you know the reason in in that framework that israel is so important is that they've got to get that landing strip cleared they got it you know there's the temple mount there's a the dome of the rock is built on it the temple must be rebuilt in order for jesus to come back i believe this is this is the way it goes i don't have it sitting in front of me to come back. I believe this is the way it goes.

I don't have it sitting in front of me. But either way, Israel is important to the evangelical right because it's got to be stable and good for the landing. The problem is, is obviously most rational people are upset about the nihilists, frightened for the environment when it comes to the capitalists, and completely terrified because of the religious fanatics i just wanted to pay a little lip service to the religious fanatics to the prophecy fulfillment policy and the evangelical wing of the trump administration just saying hello put that in your head roll it around it's's all connected. Okay. Sweet. So listen, Phoebe Robinson, uh, is, um, she's got

a podcast called so many white guys that's available wherever you can get podcasts and her books. You can't touch my hair and other things. I still have to explain and everything's trash, but it's okay. Is the other book and they're available wherever you get books. And of course, you know, her from the two seasons of two the other book. And they're available wherever you get books. And of course, you know her from the two seasons of Two Dope Queens on HBO. They're available wherever you get HBO. And I imagine you can still find that podcast around. But I love her. She's great.

But it's interesting in this conversation. We kind of breach the sort of black and white thing a bit. And I learned a couple of things. Not too heavy. I'm not sure we solved any big problems, but it was certainly fun talking to her. So this is me talking to Phoebe Robbins. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen

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FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription

required. T's and C's apply. So it's nice to see you. Nice to see you too. Let's get into the collagen issue.

Well, I mean, where are you at with your regimen? So Vanessa Bayer turned me on to this because we did. I was just talking about her. She's amazing. I love her to pieces. And we shot this Netflix movie, Ibiza. Yeah. In 2017.

Yeah. And every morning I just see her putting this powder in her oatmeal. I'm like, what is that? She's like, oh, it's my collagen. It's supposed to help with your skin. And I was like, should I be doing that? Because I was like, well, I'm black. I feel like my skin's always going to be fine.

But she's like, you need collagen. And I was like, do black people know we need collagen? So now I do it every morning. I have a green juice. First thing I have, dump a bunch of collagen in. I don't know if it's working. Well, what is the response from black people in general

with the collagen? Well, I can't tell my parents. I'm from the Midwest. They're going to be like, who the fuck are you? I knew you wore fucking turtleneck dickies and now you're walking around

with collagen powder. It is... I've been taking collagen for months and I don't know, does my skin look good? Your skin looks good. It does? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But I put lotion on too. Yeah. I'm that kind of man yeah how can I ask you how old you are absolutely not how rude 55 you look great 55 yeah yeah if you didn't look great I wouldn't I would just breeze right past that comment I'm turning 35 in september you're like a young person i know i'm a baby that's what i started to realize when i was reading through your books as going through stuff and i'm like i am out of the loop i'm like do you even like my stuff yeah i do i was getting laughs but i'm actually i don't know i think i'm an old man in the sense that i'm like what is she

what is this who is this who are these fucking? Who is this? Who are these fucking people? What is this? There's a lot of interesting language being used. Is this? But I didn't want to be that guy. Yeah. But I mean, but I get the thrust of it. No, I think you're very funny.

Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that, man. I was on your show, but you weren't there. No, I was. That was like a kind of a bummer. I was really bummed because i've been a huge fan of yours for a long time and i couldn't be there i think because i was shooting something right yeah and i was just like this sucks yeah it was like oh i'm never gonna meet him now

no we like it's funny because i i got like the first book a while back the essay on feminism is great thank you so much and it feels like that was the one where you're like i gotta do this right yeah that was the last one i wrote and i kept putting it off and i was like kept missing deadlines and i was like i pitched this essay to my editor and the publisher and they were like we're so excited for this now i'm like oh fuck i can't cut it right because in the past if i was like oh i can't figure it out i'm just gonna cut it from the book and i'm like all right but they were so they kept being like we can't wait to see the feminism essay and i was like oh shit yeah so i i spent maybe three days and i just was writing yeah writing and i i got i just vomited on the page and it made sense and

people a lot of people really like that i say a lot which i i appreciate yeah yeah because i think you know it's one of those things where you got to wrangle in all this stuff you got to take a stand and it's a stand you know against something that you're within yeah and and and you gotta you have to be your argument has to be solid yeah or else you know they're gonna call you out exactly yeah and so all the response has been good the response has been good i mean i think you know feminism is anyone who hasn't read the book. Basically, I just call out white feminism as being just as problematic in its own way as like the patriarchy or whatever. And, you know, the patriarchy or whatever. That should be the next book. Whatever that, you know, that thing.

That whole oppressive thing. And I think what's been interesting now is like you know two queens is coming out and so then i get new people who like didn't know me before that or do like the viewer or whatever and sometimes when i call out white feminists there will be like some like really angry white women in my comments they'll be like i'm unfollowing your work and i'm like see if a shit i'm like what do, what do you think that's going to accomplish? But that's also like point. That's the point.

You're proving the point. Yeah, you think I'm going to, oh, I'm not going to talk now because I don't want to lose a white fan. It's like, it's so stupid. It's so dumb. And so people mostly get it. And I think it is, it's just based in fact. Like, you can't like argue your way out of it is how I feel get it. And I think it is it's just based in fact, like you can't like argue your way out of it is how I feel about it.

Like we don't have to we can start lighter. Yeah. But no, but I think that's always been a problem with like people who even call themselves progressives is that, you know, when I did talk radio on the left, it was like it just got to the point where it's like these people are just going to eat themselves. Yeah. the left it was like it just got to the point where it's like these people are just going to eat themselves yeah and if there's nothing there's nothing anyone can do about it because the personalities are so strong there are boutique issues that you know this is what defines our progressiveness yeah and then it's just sort of like this is a fucking it's a clusterfuck and you're just going to watch them you know tear their own selves up and and then you know not

come together to do when they need to yeah that's why we have 85 people running on the Democratic side. I'm like, what? I know. I'm like, Bernie again? Are you running? Are you running? Let me run. Why not?

Just do it. It's insane. You can do it. Yeah. Be a comic who runs for president. There's always been one. Pat Paulson was this old dude who used to run every year for years. Really?

Yeah. Comedian. He used to run for president. Oh my God. What dude who used to run every year for you really a comedian He's just run for president. What does it take to run for president? I have no idea just fill out a form Yeah, and I think you just good enough people to be like, yeah, I like you and you can run Yeah, oh, yeah sign this. Yeah, dude on do it on the show Post the petition the the signatory thing and then you put it out there and see how many you get and then you just you Don't have to full in. yeah just kind of half-ass it have a platform yeah that'd be funny so how did i miss uh your stand-up career entirely i mean was i not in new york did i were you of a different

generation yeah where did you grow up what happened i'm from i'm from cleveland ohio from in cleveland The suburbs of Cleveland. I'm always, my initial reaction to Ohio was always like, and I don't even know why. I think it's because of the Republican slash opioid slash conservative freak show that sort of undermines, well, it certainly did in 2004, I think. Yeah. Wasn't that the year? Yeah.

But every time I'm there, like anywhere else I go, I'm like, no, there's good people everywhere. Yeah. And there's that one street with the three restaurants on it that's very good by the club I work at. I really do like Cleveland. I do think politically Ohio is not on the whole like what I align with um but yeah I grew up in the suburbs my parents have been married what how does my brother because I got married

my mom was pregnant with him 30 and I just reveal that but anyway who cares 30 was that an accident or was it no no no it was just like all all right, well. It happened. Guess we'll step up. Yeah. You're what? All right. Yeah. That's how your dad proposed? God damn it. Okay. So they've been together 39 years.

I have an older brother. He married his college sweetheart. How's that going? They have two kids. It's wild. I don't want to have kids. Yeah. That's a big thing.

And my boyfriend and I have talked about that. We both, we just don't want to have kids. Yeah. That's the end of my boyfriend and I have talked about that. We both, we just don't want to have kids. You have a boyfriend for a long time now? It'll be two years in July. He's a tour manager for rock bands. Yeah? Yeah.

What bands? Right now, he's with the Lumineers. Last year, he was with Nico Case. What a dog. Oh, my God. The Lumineers, they're good. Have you seen them live? No, look.

I'm not, I'm not. It's just funny to be with, like, you know, with your Bono obsession that you're now dating this dude that seems to be like just on a list of two representing some of the whitest people working in music. I saw them open for Bono. Yeah, that's how I met my boyfriend. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was at a U2 concert and the Lumineers are open for him.

My boyfriend's from, he's from Bournemouth, which is like two hours south of London. English guy? Yeah, tats, piercings. Yeah, he's cool. Oh, yeah? Yeah. This is the guy? Yes.

Oh, he's the one, for sure. Really? What was the, he said really like, why? Because I, you know, I have been through many relationships yeah two marriages I too do not have children yeah just because it was never I never really thought about it yeah I'm not the person for them yeah I don't I think it's a fine thing yeah have you thought it well what was what's your thinking on it I um I just don't like I see what friends. I see, like, when my parents went through it. I'm like, I don't have the capacity to raise someone, like, the day-to-day.

Well, here, devil's advocate. Do you ever get this? Y'all know when you have one, you'll show up. No. I won't. I will resent. I'll be pissed. I'll be pissed.

But your parents were supportive and loving and you know. Yeah they were good. Yeah. See for me I just I have anxiety about kids I don't have. Like the ones that I could have had who are now in rehab and in their 20s. I'm worried about them. It's good that you didn't have kids. I think more people should not have kids yeah we have enough yeah and honestly like they're i think a lot of times people are like oh you know they don't tell you the whole thing and i've had some friends be like i love being a parent yeah but it is really fucking hard and like honestly like i don't encourage people to have kids right but there's some people they just want you to be a part of the tribe and i'm like no i'm good it's weird and i don't want to like i better not you know like there's something that there's this this thing that happens to people they have kids and then they just sort of go

into this weird almost zombie like state yeah for at least a decade yeah you know and then they come out of it and they're like what i miss you know yeah it's true and come out of it and they're like, what'd I miss? Yeah, it's true. It's weird. Yeah. And they're going to hate, I imagine I'll get some emails. But I mean, look, I like kids for a few days. Yeah, they're fun. And I like hanging out with my niece and nephew.

Yeah. But I like sleep. I like being able to have 20 different jobs. I like that my boyfriend and I can travel to see each other. I just like the freedom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also it's like not having a horse in the race at this particular juncture in global history is not a horrible thing. It's not like you can have a kid who's two now and say like, it's going to be great when you get older. You're going to be able to do whatever you want in the camp. I don't know. So when did you, so your brother, he's living a normal life. You have nieces and nephews. That's a nice relationship to have. You can be Aunt Phoebe and come over with presents

and then leave. Exactly. It's perfect. What's he do? He is, so he works at a nonprofit city year and then he just got into politics and he ran for state rep in his district and he won. Really? Yeah. He was a state rep? Yeah, in district six and he flipped it. It was red for 60 years. That's exciting.

Yeah, it was the first time. Wow. Yeah. When you were growing up, were your parents political or what kind of house did you grow, what'd they do? So my mom is an accountant and my dad now he does real estate. But like they weren't super political, but my brother would, he would just sit down and watch C-SPAN.

Yeah. Like at- When it was like the only thing, like there were two things on cable. How old's your brother? He is 39. Like I would watch, you know, Ally McBeal or In Living Color

and he'd be fucking watching C-SPAN. Like for pleasure, for hours. Even when no one was talking? Just like people shuffling papers and walking across the floor. I cannot tell you the amount of times I saw that I'm like, what is, this is like a shitty Truman show?

Like, what are we watching? He's like, it's so good. And I'm like, all right, sure. They're voting on Bill 309. It's a water-related bill. Wow. I never got it, but he just is a huge political junkie, always has been. I respect people like that who really get off on the nuances of how the system works.

Yeah. Because did you read that thing about how most people don't know who Mike Pence is? And it's just sort of like it's kind of even. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Even like's just sort of like, it's kind of even really, yeah. Even like a large amount of people that even in the climate we live in, there's still plenty of people sort of like, no,

get involved, you know, just go to work. It'll work out. I mean, you talk about that too. And in that essay, which is the one I really studied,

uh, you're like, I read one essay. I'm fucking busy. I browsed, I read one essay. It was busy i browsed i read one essay it was like black people black people feminism okay this is a little broader maybe this will encompass all of the things that she talks about where do you stand on race man do you does it make you stand like

does it make it race no but no does it make make it antsy to talk about it or not really? Well, you know, when I do talk about it, the weird thing is, is like in terms of like the one, I underline something in the book, actually, two things. Oh, wow. Look at that. Silence and putting your head down is flat out unacceptable and only makes more visible the fact that you're trying to remain invisible in the face of atrocities. Yeah. Yeah. I fucking wrote that you did yeah and and it's an issue for a lot of people i talk to like you know people who consider themselves progressive people good people they're just sort of like you know it's like i'm

gonna write this one out yeah i'll throw you know they'll be like trump sucks and you know this is bad but you know where do i stand in it i try to talk about it with people who want to talk about it i don't walk up to people and go like are we good is everything all right you know like i've engaged people yeah uh in like i talked to dl hugley about it but this whole idea of like black friends and knowing the black community and stuff yeah i have two friends period you know what i mean like so like i'm not out in the world i you know i work with people of all races and i'm like hey what's going on but it's not in my day-to-day brain but am i guilty of being nervous about saying something like you said am i nervous

about saying something well it's very easy to not know how to talk it's not i don't think i'm going to say something racist because i know i'm not racist yeah but but there there is a point where it's sort of like the self-consciousness right is going just your tone is going to be like you know can i say that can i say are we good you know like that kind of shit does happen in my brain okay but uh but i but it's not a day-to-day thing but i do but even now talking about um like i was trying to do a joke like here here's a a for instance just from the act because like i'm not you know uh out there in the streets you're not out there in the street

yeah i'm not i'm not i'm not going out like I'm just walking around trying to be inclusive. But I did do, I was trying to do a joke about, is it wrong for me to use the black thumbs up emoji? I will say this. I appreciate when my white friends do that to me. To you? Yeah. But for me to do it, is it innately racially insensitive for me to do it as like me doing it just to anybody if you like did it to just to a friend like as

you just to do the thumbs up but i just chose to i had many color options and then like that's kind of not i i think i'm okay with that really yeah i mean because that's the kind of thing where i put it out there there's a lot of people like i don't know i Good. I mean. Because that's the kind of thing where I put it out there. There's a lot of people like, I don't know. I don't know where this is going. I'm kind of like. It's an option. Yeah.

I like that you chose that option instead of being like white's a default. That's the only one I'm going to. I like that you're like, I'm going to use a black. I'll use the Latino one. Yeah. And the Asian one too. Yeah. I think it's a bigger question is the yellow and the Asian one is questionable.

The yellow one. I'm like, what is this yellow and the Asian one is questionable. The yellow one, I'm like, what is this, guys? What's happening? That one is weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that you're doing that. Sometimes I use all of them just to bring everybody in. There you go. I'm very excited and the world is excited with me.

So I don't know. Am I avoiding the question? I don't think you're avoiding the question. I think you answered it as a white person. Which is? I could tell you were nervous. I could tell you were like, ah, but you got through it. I kind of knew.

Yeah. But I think you're trying to do what's right. If I don't think about it, I'm fine. But I do, like, even in looking through your book and just out of recently really thinking about the idea of white male privilege, white privilege, the truth is, like, I'm trying to work on stuff about being woke and acknowledging

that I am a 55-year-old white dude. Yeah. So I needed to be woke, and I continually need to be woke. Yeah. And, and, and it's a process. It's not second nature. It's cause like, it's not so much that our thinking was bad, but it was off.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It was not the, the, the element that needed to be woke in terms of acknowledging white privilege was not, it just wasn't engaged. I was just moving through the life, assuming that everything was okay. Right. And that, oh, this is just,

everyone has this sort of starting point. And now you realize that's like not true. Well, I knew that, you know, that it was always difficult for people of color. I was not, you know, complete idiot. Like they're fine. They just don't like living in this neighborhood. You know, I wasn't a complete idiot. Yeah, yeah.

And I also knew about institutional racism, but I just don't think I really thought of myself as somebody who benefited in a way at someone else's expense or unfairly. Yeah. You know, I just made assumptions. I'm a middle class Jewish guy. I went to college. I wasted that time. There's a lot of

people like that. There seem to be other people working harder than me. There were people of color around but I never thought that I was somehow guilty of something. I don't think it's that you're guilty of anything. I want to remove that. It's not that you're guilty of something. This turning into like a fucking college that's all right i

need to learn yeah but i think it's more that like in the day-to-day yeah you have certain advantages sure that make your life easier yeah um like i fly business class yeah i just do yeah Almost every time I'm at the airport, I get pulled out of line because they think I don't belong there. Really? Yes. But how does that unfold? I was flying in Dublin

and I go in the TSA business line or whatever. And one guy pulled in. He's like, excuse me, what are you doing here? And I was like, business class. I'm showing him my guy pulled he's like excuse me what are you doing here and i was like business class i'm like showing him my phone he's like okay i walk and then another guy pulls me out of line he was like you don't belong in this line and the other guy was like oh no no no she's business class and i'm like yeah i fucking and said i was like this happens all the time yeah i get pulled out of line um yeah and it's just daily sort of like little things where people just remind you that you don't belong I don't believe and I don't know if you've thought about it but I don't think that everybody is

innately capable of empathy I think that most people are self-centered self-involved and and not necessarily myopic but but in their own trip right they're in their own world so certainly with i'm trying to talk about this a bit too on stage certainly with gender with men and women it's literally impossible for a man to be truly empathetic with a woman he has to it has to come from respect and listening you can't really walk and you can't right yeah yeah yeah and i think it's the same you know with uh white and black people in in what you're talking about so there is this other thing that you have to engage which is understanding in you know what the struggle is in order to be empathetic yeah yeah. Yeah. And then also understanding, like this was,

because I started doing stand-up 11 years ago. I started in New York and I always called myself a grinder. Like I was always just, you know, I would go to shows, I would go home,

I would write, like I was just. Let's talk about that and come back around to it. Yeah, yeah. So you grow up and you moved to New York for. At 17,

I went to Pratt Institute. At 17, that seems young Pratt Institute. At 17? Yeah. That seems young. Well, just the way that my birthday fell. Oh. Yeah, and I wanted to study writing. I used to watch film and TV all the time.

I was a slacker in high school. I can tell. I read the books. I was like, watch that. She watched that? Like your references, I'm like, they're so solid and I know they're funny. And I'm like, I got to go re-watch so solid and i know they're funny and i'm like i gotta go re-watch that movie again i know i was i was lame like that's all i did was just like

watch and re-watch stuff and was it was it movies you wanted to write yeah i thought i was gonna write like serious oscar movies like i never wanted to do comedy i never watched stand-up like i like all of this yeah is was not planned right yeah i never wanted to what comedy. I never watched standup. Like all of this was not planned. Yeah, I never wanted to do any of this. What were the movies that moved you the most? Probably 70s cinema, so like Scorsese. Those guys, yeah. Yeah, the Conversation, that sort of stuff.

Like I really was just like, because yeah, that's like what I was watching. An hour watching Gene Hackman tear the walls out of his apartment and play saxophone that was the one yeah i was like i could write that like but that's like what i was watching and so i was like well i feel like i should move to new york i watched his show felicity and it's about this white girl with curly hair yeah and she moved to new york for a guy i wasn't gonna move for a guy but i was hair yeah and she moved to new york for a guy i

wasn't gonna move for a guy but i was like i want to move to new york i think that'd be cool so i tried to get an nyu and they were like your grades are fucking trash so they rejected me i was like maybe a c- student oh yeah i just you didn't even kick into gear in the last year that's what i did i didn't care i was like i didn't care i went to in the last year? That's what I did. No, I didn't care. I was like, I didn't care. My brother and I went to this predominantly white high school. And honestly, I just went because he was going. And I just wanted to sort of do what he did. And he was the cool guy on campus.

Every girl wanted to date him. He was in jazz band. He did Swedish. He was just the cool dude. And I was not cool. I was just like the cool dude. And I was like not cool. Right. I was just Phil's sister. Yeah. Which is like fine,

but I just totally was. Yeah. It just took me a minute to sort of like figure out myself and like what I wanted to do. So high school, I just sort of phoned it in. It was,

I don't know, it was funny, but I was, it never registers anything other than me just being sarcastic. But even there, like the idea that you were one of the few black people there?

Yeah. Yeah, I was the only black girl in my grade. So like, yeah, I see like, I have to think about what that would feel like. Yeah. And it's got, you know, just like every day. Yeah. You're like, I'm here. The one is here.

Like I can't. Yeah. And you feel different. Like you you fully feel different all the time yeah yeah and on top of that you're you're a woman yeah so there's that part too yeah so it's just like double whammy yeah and you know I think in the long run it was very good for me to go there but I think I had to sort of personally work out mentally what that felt like to be the only black person in a room. Yeah. And it felt weird.

And I wish I would have had like another black girl in my grade because I think that would have been like a good sort of lifeline. But, you know. Someone to be like, this is fucking crazy, right? Yeah, exactly. Or just like, I don't know. Like, yeah, I wasn't like I was doing work study. Like exactly or just like he just i don't know like yeah i wasn't like i was doing work study like it wasn't like my parents were rich you know what i mean so it's just like class wise race wise it was not like on the same as other people so it just did you experience actual sort of racism i people were actually pretty chill yeah but i also yeah people are actually i think it's

old when i've gotten older and like being in the adult world that's where that right do you see but do you see do you classify overcompensating it as you know some like as as a an antidote to an individual's racism wouldn't they overcompensate as being is that more annoying in some way yes it is it's it's like i don't i'm like you don't have to be my it's like if i get into a car and you know i get into a lift and they like immediately like change it to like fucking bruno mars i'm like you were you were listening to i don't know monsters and men or whatever the band is just listen to that like you don't have to Monsters and Men or whatever the band is. Just listen to that.

You don't have to change it to Jay-Z because I'm in the car. Because you think I like that. Yeah. And I'm like, I do like Jay-Z. Sure. Who doesn't? Yeah. You can leave it on some indie folk whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So you're there and you're funny, but you're not thinking. You just want to go to New York. Yeah. I just want to go to New York and write serious movies.

And then I got to Pratt and I think I ended up being like a straight-A student. Like I really just, it's what I wanted to do. I was like, oh, I want to write. Yeah, and I did. Did you make short films? No, so I did like a lot of like writing like short stories and like short scripts.

And then funnily enough, I joined, when did I join my improv troupe maybe sophomore year yeah we had like just like a random

like informal improv troupe on campus and like I think like Chris Gethard came to teach us one one day

like it was really cool but I still never I was like oh this is a fun way to pass the time you didn't know about that world yeah

I was just sort of like, that's cool. You wanted to write. Yeah. And there was this whole teeming world of funny people out there. Yeah. That you just started to see. Yeah, and then I remember I had Nori Davis, who's this amazing stand-up comic.

He was like, you should do stand-up. And I was like, no, I don't want to do that. It's dumb. Did you ever like stand-up? I saw, before I started getting into stand-up i saw like a chris rock special yeah an ellen degeneres one yeah maybe margaret cho and that was it and i i was i will say i was like into dane cook for like half a minute which i know people a lot of energy a of energy. I stand by the first album. I don't know if it holds up,

but it held up when I listened to it. It was exciting. Yeah. He was all worked up about little things. It's nice. I love the casual drag. I'm great at it. You are really good at it.

I'm like, damn. Damn, he's been around a lot of black people because he knows how to just fucking rip you a new asshole. You don't even realize it. A few minutes later, what just happened? Where is that guy?

My boyfriend's like that. Brits are really good at that. They're so good at being condescending. Because you assume they're doing it anyways, just by the way they talk. Yes. Yes. So when they really do it, it's like, oh, that's a nine. Yeah.

They're always at a three. Yeah. That was like one of the big sort of cultural things with my boyfriend when we first started dating. I thought he was always being condescending and he thought I was always yelling at him. And I was like, this is my normal this is like new york like everyone is really passionate and we're going to say everything we want to say before you're allowed to talk again yeah but i'm not yelling he was like he didn't get it your personality has to operate at the same frequency of the city yes exactly so he'd be like why are all you and your

friends just yelling at each other i'm like oh no we're having a good time we love each other yeah but he thought i was like that's verbally just screaming at him i was like i love you man see you're yelling again and i noticed like sometimes i will be like literally berating him with positivity and i've caught myself being like i'm just yelling at this man yeah yeah berating him with positivity and i've caught myself being like i'm just yelling at this man yeah yeah berating him with positivity what a horrible thing yeah you are so fucking good god damn it you are something you are great and that's what i did but i fucking love you man you're so he'd be like why are you screaming i mean he's like i don't know if you love me right now. I'm feeling a subtext. But yeah, so I did improv.

And then when I graduated, I was like, I'm just going to work at a couple of film companies. And then I was a receptionist at New Line Cinema. Oh, yeah. And then I was like an executive assistant at Picturehouse. I don't know what that is. Production House? It was like an executive assistant at Picturehouse. I don't know what that is. It was like a- Production house? It was like a division of New Line. They fold it, and now they're back,

and I was miserable. I hated it. For what reason? I don't want to be in an office nine to five. I was like, this is terrible. Not weird office dynamics, just the job. Just the job, like clocking in every day. The worst.

Yeah, I was like this small talk yes hey did you watch that last night i did yeah we both experienced it and then you just back into like i wanted to be dead but that's what it was it's just like hey whatever like we're just talking about nothing i don't know how people do it yeah it's brutal and a friend of mine who i think lives in san francisco now um she was like i want to take a stand-up class at caroline's and i was like no i don't want to do that and she's like you hate your job and i was like okay everyone knew you were funny at this point were you writing that were you putting out stuff that you were writing where no? No, I was so miserable at my job, I stopped writing. And this is after college?

It was after college. I was 22, 23. I wasn't writing anymore. No. You died inside. I think I did. No one ever said that to me, but I think I kind of did, where I was just like, I guess this is it.

That's the worst thing. That happens in all types of things. Yeah. Like, because if you don't know really what you want to do or you don't have the courage to do it right then, you kind of surrender. Like relationships too. I'm like, I guess this is it.

You know, I could get a little better. Yeah. But, you know, this is what most people do. Yeah. And that's what I was like, oh, I'll just like work my way up, you know, the corporate ladder. And I guess I'll be like an exec.

Nothing happened to shatter your writing dreams to that degree? You just like jumped into. I was just like, I just didn't think that I could perform. Like I just was sort of like, this is like the path that people take. You just get like an office job. Yeah, you get an office job, you work your way up. And then that's just like what you do. What was your parents angle?

an office job you work your way up and then that's just like what you do what was your parents angle i think my parents um they were pretty much like do whatever it is that you want to do but i think i think there was sort of an inkling that i wanted to perform when i started doing improv but i would never admit that to anyone yeah it was just like oh this is a fun way to pass time or make friends right it was never like i enjoy being on stage yeah it was just like friendship bonding i know see like when i was coming up there that wasn't sort of like we can take an improv class or a stand-up class just to learn how to you know be a better people out in the world and talk yeah it'd be a fun thing to do you know yeah but it was just like this is a fun escape from like your office job right and so then Lindsay was like, just take this class.

It's only eight weeks. Linda Smith is a teacher. Oh, she's great. She's amazing. I go way back with her. She's awesome. I literally did my first open mics with Linda Smith in Boston. Really?

Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. Amazing. And that's like, Jesus, that's like 19, when I was in college and I first did a few open mics before I got out of college. She was, it was like in the mid 80s. That's crazy. I loved her.

She was great. Yeah, so great. And so I was like, all right, I'll take this dumb class. It's eight weeks and I'll go back to my office job. And then the first, the first time time because like our first assignment was to like write five minutes of like whatever yeah and we were like in kind of like this it felt like a room that just had like an aa meeting that let out and then they put the stand up class it's like the the chair is like in a half circle there was like an empty donut it wasn't at caroline's it

wasn't at caroline's it was like a small it was like some random small like room huh and i i touched the microphone i was like oh whoa and i got like my first laugh was like some dumb joke i don't remember but i was like this is interesting it is interesting yeah that you know we you take it for granted now yeah but that first time where you like you know you hold the thing and you're not sure how to hold it, but it's like, it's like power, right? Yeah. And you take it out the mic stand. I was like, oh, that's cool. Right.

And it was nothing that special, but I just was like, oh, I think this is what I should be doing. So I immediately was like, I just started going to open mics. Writing again. Writing again, started going to open mics writing again writing again started going open mics and then i got late so that was july 2008 got laid off from my office job october 2008 and i'm a big like the universe i'm pretty i'm like not like religious but i really do believe like the universe is always talking to us and we just have to listen so i'm always looking out for signs.

Yeah. It's upset right now. Yeah. It's fucking wants to kill us all right now. Working on it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, well, I got laid off and I got this small severance package right when I found the thing I was supposed to be doing with my life.

That's a sign. Oh, so you're like things happen the way they're supposed to kind of person. So I just doubled down and I did like open mics and I like had shitty temp jobs. And I think my weirdest. Oh yeah, like what? My weirdest one is I tipped at MAC Cosmetics. Yeah. And their whole thing is like, everyone has to wear all black.

You can't wear any color. And I was like, even at temp and I'm like, yes, you have to go out and buy all black clothes. Yeah. And no one ate. No one ate there. I was like, what the fuck is this? A cult?

It was so weird. And it was only like three weeks. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want. No, this is insane. But I could not believe. Like, I would go because I was like early 20s. And I was like, oh, I can like still eat like shit. So I would like go to Wendy's early 20s and I was like oh I can like still eat like shit so I would like

go to Wendy's and bring back my shitty fast food you could just tell people are like horrified that I'm like eating I still love Wendy's

I did too I remember I was in high school when the first Wendy's opened like when the chain started and they yeah

so it was like I'm pretty sure because I was like it was late 70s maybe and there was one we could walk to from my high school and just Yeah, so it was like, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Because I was, like, it was late 70s maybe. Yeah. And there was one we could walk to from my high school.

Nice. And just those greasy square burgers. Yeah. Like the double cheeseburger. Yeah. They were so good. So good. Oh, and I remember when they put salad bars in the Wendy's. And everyone was like, nah, I don't know.

We're good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was very. We're good. Yeah. Yeah. It's very exciting times. Yeah. Yeah. And so I would just eat like my shitty greasy food temp and then do stand up at night.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would do like biker bars in Staten Island. How the fuck does that happen? How out of all the things like, you know, I've done a lot of weird gigs where I was starting out, but like a biker bar on Staten Island, some comic had that gig. Yeah. So he would, like, have, like, a bunch of us, like, go with him.

And it was just kind of this, like, and they did not give a fuck that we were there. It was brutal. But you need that. You need to get, like. I did a lot of those, yeah. Yeah, you need people not caring at all. Do you remember, like, the feeling of, like, the first time you go to Staten Island? You're like, it's kind of scary.

You're like, do people live out here? Yeah. Because you hear things about Staten Island. It's this weird kind of like enclave of gangsters and retired cops and firefighters. And there's a dump there. And you're like, who lives out there? And it's like suburban. But then there's no one on the streets ever.

It was just weird. Yeah. Yeah. So you did a lot of those kind of gigs? I did a lot of that stuff and got in so much debt. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, it's good that they didn't give a fuck

as opposed to give a fuck. Yes. In some level. Yes. Like it's weird when you do those one-nighters that are not at comedy clubs and it's a comedy night. Yeah. And you walk in and they're like,

yeah, just over there. What about the people? Like, they'll come maybe. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah god yeah all right and you do it yeah the weird thing about and i don't know if it was the same experience for you the weird thing about those gigs is like you give it your all yeah because you think you're like i'm gonna turn them yeah exactly yeah yeah you're not gonna turn them but then i i started like this manchester pub it was a a bar in Midtown.

And I started hosting like I think a twice a month show there. We got paid in like chicken wings and beer. And like that's just like I was just grinding. And when did you first start like getting work? Oh, gosh. Mike, did you start doing which clubs did let you in eventually? I'm now just slowly starting to do clubs. I've just been doing like indie shit. Right.

And like doing festivals and just like. So you came up in the alt scene. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's come back to where we were, which is that feeling of like, you know, when you started doing comedy in new york and you know in terms of being black yes oh in that world like the alt world is different like that isn't it i mean it's different but it's still like a bunch of white dudes who think you don't belong well well i see the audiences even on the hbo show yeah it's like it's pretty diverse. Now, getting there, the first one was pretty white. No.

No? This is what I will say. I think the way the seating was done, I think, was to- So they made the black people sit in the back? I don't think they made the black people sit in the back, but I think they wanted it to feel like- Yeah. Right. There are white people who like this oh

that's what they were hoping that seems like that see it's for everybody yeah exactly i think that's sort of like what it was but i was like it was pretty pretty diverse crowds for both seasons but um i think of everything i do stand-up is the most nerve-wracking thing for me in terms of the community yes and i've always and so this is like what i was trying to say earlier that we circle back to so i you know so i would for example like i had a day job i go i do like some open mics then i go home and write and then i do like my blogging or whatever like i always just had like a bunch of jobs because i like i got my my own apartment i was living by myself by 23 in new york and i was just hustling that was just like my thing i'm like you gotta hustle you so exciting though isn't it it's really exciting but i was like so focused on like i just gotta support myself in new york my parents can't

afford to help me out like I just gotta make it happen. And I would notice, I was doing some open mics and I just was noticing how toxic the energy was. With the cynical, bitter white dudes? Yeah, and just like everyone's ragging on everyone and like, oh, this person bombs. And you're like, yeah, it's a fucking open mic. Why are you being, people are just being so mean to each other and i was like this is fucking stupid like i i don't need

this so i like sort of stopped going to open mics and just like started like my own shows and like was trying to find other shows where there's like in a restaurant or like and like wherever so i was just sort of doing that and i just kept encountering some white people who'd be like some white comics who'd be like oh you think you're better than everyone else and that comment was only ever said by other white comics and i was like i don't think i'm better than everybody else like i just am mentally me being in a toxic environment where everyone's treating each other like shit I didn't like right and there was a lot like I would get comments because I don't hang out like I'm not a big drinker yeah I never drink before I go on stage and I was like pretty

sober um I don't want to call myself a square that's just like it's not your thing it's just like not my thing like I don't mind having like a glass rose afterwards but like i'm just like but i get it that's an interesting observation in that you know in the sense that when i grew up when i came up yeah yeah it was a bunch of miserable fucking dudes yeah you know who were you know who would talk behind each other's backs and like you you know, you know, secretly get excited when someone was tanking. And I saw that. Yeah. And like, I do a bit about it on stage.

It's like, you know, like when you hear that, like at the comedy store, like there's a laugh that comes out of the back when a joke tanks. Yeah. And it's very specifically a comic laugh. And it's not a real laugh. It's always like that. And like, and that's how, you know, because they can't even laugh anymore. They're a real laugh it's always like and like and that's how you know yeah because they can't even laugh anymore they're just excited that someone's failing

and I that gives them some sort of like uh you know rush but I mean you know I acknowledge it and I there's I guess what I'm saying is that there was a way of behaving in place that was essentially toxic and probably still is yeah and it was just because we were all kind of like selfish roguish you know angry dudes who were trying to you know get at this but but you it the pressure to fit into that yeah and i'm like well i don't want to sort of rag on someone if they bomb like i'm like we're i want to be like we're all kind of shitty yeah like we're all figuring it out like yeah it just became this weird like oh well this person sucks and i'm like we all suck yeah like that's what you're we're all year four we all suck so

like me acting like this person's garbage and i'm a mate. I like, I just didn't want to do that. And so the mentality of it, I just couldn't get into the, like sometimes, you know, if I do well in the show, like comics would talk to me beforehand. And if I do well in show, sometimes the male comics wouldn't talk to me or like they wouldn't acknowledge me.

And then I do well in show. Then they talk to me and I was like, this is all fucking, I was like, this is terrible. Like I see when a woman or a person of color stops doing stand-up comedy I always get it 1000% yeah oh I go I yeah it's it's it's hard yeah because it's just like you are like I would rarely I would usually be the only one of me on a show.

I've had people say, oh, we can't have like another black person on the show because that would make it weird. Like fully just like. Like it's casual? Yeah, and you're like, it's not weird to have two black people on the show. What the fuck are we talking about? But just the sort of like. You got to mix it up.

Four white guys, one black person. You get two black people, then it's half and half and it's not fair. Yeah, like, oh, this is like a weird ethnic night. And I'm like, what? But that's like the shit I was dealing with. And I was like, I don't, I like stand up comedy, but I don't like stand up comedians. And that's how I felt for a really long time. Yeah.

Because there was just so much like shitty behavior and then I would sort of like start talking shit about people. I'm like, why are you even- Oh, you started getting infected. Yeah. And I was like, no, don't do that, Pheebs. Don't be that. Yeah.

You know, again, because of my part in that. Yeah. But I was always the most toxic in a way because i i was jealous angry yeah you know and it just you just fester and like i start to rationalize it like you know back then or even you know in retrospect that you know comics are essentially people that don't at least my generation, they fundamentally did not fit into society. Yeah. Or they made choices that like either they were in it for the women or they were in it

so they could be borderline criminals and just smoke weed all day and wander around and sleep until noon. Yeah. And be on the road. So I always saw them as these gypsies and rogues who were just like misanthropic fre road. Yeah. So they, I always saw them as these, you know, gypsies and rogues who were just like misanthropic, you know, freaks.

Yeah. And, and, and I thought in my head, well, that's, that's what comedy is. That's who we are.

Like when Jess and I started Two Dope Queens, we started in part because I did improv in New York, she did in LA and we're only always surrounded by white people

and we're like, but we white people we're like but we know tons of funny people of color yeah we know funny queer people yeah we know funny women so like why aren't they on these shows and so we were just sort of like I think what happens a lot of times it's not about it's about the fact that we're just not seen. Right. And so a lot of times those groups that are marginalized just aren't even considered at all. And if they are, it's on ethnic night. Yes, exactly. And you're like, well, I could do stand-up at this club

any night of the week. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of like, I remember when I was blogging for a while that anytime anything, something black happened, I'd be like, hey, remember when I was blogging for a while that anytime, anything,

something black happened, I'd be like, Hey, do you want to write about this? I'm like, dude, ask me to fucking write about you too. I can fucking write about that too.

And it feels very much like you're just putting me in a box that that's my only value is to be this black person who can represent all black people. And so when Jess and I started to dope Queens, we were like, well, we just know so many hilarious people yeah just have them on that that aren't the that aren't mainstream or aren't represented yeah yeah yeah so it's like just have them on and so i think there's a way to go about inclusion that is not condescending and i think people confuse that interesting and that if inclusion means oh we're bringing in people who are unqualified and it's like no inclusion means opening your eyes and seeing that there are people who are just as valuable as you are right they don't look like

you yeah yeah yeah and I you know I it's as I said I'm guilty of these things yeah you know I had a writer's room that was all dudes, you know, for my show. Yeah. And, and, you know,

it was, you know, it's, it's like, it wasn't even that great. Like, I don't know. But it,

but it comes down to that same fear we were talking about that, that the, the desire to not self-check right so like when you ask me about race like do i you know get you know self you know kind of like do i like what is the word i'm looking for you know just sort of like check myself and wait before i talk and like you know the idea that like if i'm in a writer room full of dudes you know we can be

like whatever we're gonna be yeah just Yeah. Just fucking dudes, you know, talking about bullshit, making jokes. And then if like the idea that if we had a woman in there, like, well, then we can't talk about our dicks as much. Like, what is that? Yeah. It's like, come on. Maybe you shouldn't. Yeah. Maybe it's not necessary.

Exactly. That comfort zone might not be the best thing. Yeah. But I think that people have to learn that. I don't think it's innate for everybody yeah i don't think anyone comes into it fully woke or fully perfect and you know i just think now i try to be more aware of like everyone who's because it's very easy for each group like i could just i remember when i started my other podcast so many white guys which is like an

interview show and i have one token white guy that interview at the end of each season and i remember and i try to have a pretty diverse where i like have like women people color queer people just like a really a big mix and i remember i had a couple people who tweeted at me who were like i'm disappointed that like your guests aren't all black like they just wanted to be, like, an all black show. And I was like, well, diversity to me is not just only black people be in the room. I'm like, there are hundreds of races. And I feel like a lot of times in entertainment, the race conversation is just black, white.

As if there aren't, like, you know, Indians, Asians, Latinx, all those people. So I was like, I want to have it be diverse. And I'm like, well, this should just be, like, all black guests. And I was like, I want to have it be diverse. And like, well, this should just be like all black guests. And I'm like, well, then go make that show. But it was this weird thing where people just like. It's your responsibility. Yeah. And I was like, well, I want to bring everyone along.

So I don't know. I just think everyone has to find their own comfort level. But I think if you're actively not preventing someone from, you know, an opportunity because they don't look like you, I think that you're, you know, doing something right. It's not terrible. Yeah, I think it's on it. But I think you could have probably had a woman in the writing writers. No, I agree. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Would have been good. Yeah. Like, so, well, that's the thing is that, you know, guys like me or people like me, you know, what's required is just to walk around with a modicum of shame about how you've behaved and try to correct that. Yeah. And I feel like there are ways I've behaved in the past that, like, aren't great.

And I want to correct that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's everybody. Well, what did you glean from doing that show, from that podcast? The reason why I started is because I remember, I'm really close friends with Abby and Alana

and I remember when Broad City was coming out. I had them on, I gave them cereal. Yes, I remember that episode. It was like the cutest thing. It was so sweet. I was like, that's a dad move that's a very cute dad move hungry and i remember when they were interviewed on like a lot of shows and people would be like so you're so you're girls and you have your own show and you're like that

that's the question that's the fucking research she did that they have vaginas and they have a show and i just would see like all these interviews or there's like them or janet mock and it's like so you're trans yeah and i'd be like these interviews are just othering them and like the only thing that's interesting about them is that they're not the interview like the interviewer yeah and so i was like let me just talk to people about just their lives and who they are and not make it like, so you're Asian. Right, right. That's wild.

Right, yeah. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, I'm guilty of that. Yeah. You haven't done it with me, so I appreciate that. No, but I had to learn weird lessons. Yeah. Yeah, I did it with Mindy Kaling.

Because I'm so fascinated with Indian culture and Indian food, and I don't know much about it. So I assumed that she would tell me. And she was like, what are you? That's why they have Google, man. I know. But in the moment, I didn't see anything wrong with it. And that's what you learn in those conversations. That's what you learn in those conversations is that you do.

There is a reason to be a little, you know, gun shy, you know, in terms of what you're about to say, because you like you have to be like, am I doing that? Am I am I othering them? Am I seeing them as something a representative of some mystical world that I don't understand as a white guy? Yeah. as opposed to just a person you know who's got a life yeah yeah yeah why and i well you learn the hard way yeah and you don't do that are you okay that side was just like oh well no i i yeah but i there's some parts of it where i think there is real curiosity and i. And I don't think it can be misplaced. But I think that the nature of us all being people is one thing. But people do come from different lives.

And they are sometimes specific to race. And there has to be, if you're curious, okay, you can Google it. And not everyone is a representative of that community. And not everyone is a representative of that community. But it is an honest mistake to sort of put people in that position. You're like the 5,000th white person to have done that to her. Do you know what I mean? So every time I go into a new space, it's like all eyes on me.

And it's like, class, get out your books. There's going to be an exam in two weeks. Yeah. And it's just like, that gets tiring. Yeah. I guess like, yeah, the cultural, you know, sort of responsibility put upon you gets tiring. But oddly, however you handle that is going to be informative to the people that are ignorant of what they're doing. Oh, yeah. I have to.

My customers. I am so fucking polite. I have to be. Yeah. Because I can't be like the fucking angry black woman who goes fucking nuts in Verizon. So I'm just like, excuse me, ma'am. I just need to speak to your supervisor. Like I am. I don't talk this way. I don't excuse me ma'am I just need to speak to your supervisor like I am

I don't talk this way I don't fucking say ma'am but that's what I gotta be it's tiring yeah you're tired I can see in your face you're like oh man

and that's what it's like all the time yeah sucks yeah but then there's other great things about being black so it's like

it's fine okay as long as it balances out yeah i think it balances out yeah yeah yeah you talk about there's one uh there's another essay in your book about how to avoid being the black friend yeah oh yeah that's sort of in the same area of this isn't it yeah how do you know that's happening well when it's happening. Yeah. Sometimes you don't know. And then you show up to a show up to a party.

You're like, oh, shit, I'm the only one here. I got to get the fuck out. There's a lot of that. And you're just like, and I don't think people are going. This is my black friend. Like I did it. Yeah. But I think there is that sort of like well i made contact with one so i'm i'm good yeah right you know and so it's just it's so fucking annoying it's weird yeah i

don't i think i i think a lot of times i don't know but like i imagine some people are just insulated in their world and it's you know they they feel like they do need to make an effort. There's an innocence to it as well. Yes. If you're just wherever you're working or whatever, or your life is just a dozen white people. Yeah. And you have that moment where you're like, I got to broaden my. Yeah.

I know that one girl. Yeah. And that's like, I'll give you this example it was so i live in brooklyn with my boyfriend we put our names on the list for this restaurant we had to like wait a half an hour so he went down the street to this bar and we walked in and he was the only white person there and i could tell he a little, he just got a little like the way that I like, you know, get. That's how he got. And I was like, do you feel uncomfortable that you're the only white person here? He was like, yeah, I do.

And I was like, that's my fucking life, dog. That's how I was. I had to meet his family. I went to the UK for fucking eight days and i was the only fucking black person anywhere for eight days and i was like that's how i felt meeting your i don't know these people yeah i had to impress all these fucking white people in your life and i'm like that was that's me how'd that go it was good but i was like i'm tired i was like i am tired of only seeing white people and they everyone came up and they were touching my hair and i was like that's a thing huh yeah don't touch my

fucking hair yeah and i was just like and he he sort of got it he was like yeah he was like it just it feels weird and he's like you you just know that you're the only one in the room and i'm like that's that's my life right he got it but like you know it's it's a a rare event yeah it was half an hour and they had a ufc match with like two white people on the screen i'm like you're you're fine there's two other white people yeah doing what they do exactly but yeah and so just being i could see that yeah it could be exhausting yeah it's funny about the hair thing like i like i had one of these moments like it's weird that like some little moments that you know kind of you know hurt your feelings in a moment but you know you remember them yeah but i was sort of happy how I handled it. Okay.

What'd you do? What happened? There's this woman who is, you know, working at the comedy store. You know, she was not a comedian, a waitress. And she was intense and like, you know, an artist of, but she had shaved her head completely. Yeah. Yeah. Like it was drastic and it was shiny.

Whoa. And like, you know, I saw her and I don't really know her at all, you know, but I see her at the club and I was like, you know, I wanted to put my hands on her head. But no, but I said, can I touch your head?

And she's like, no. And I'm like, okay. Good for her. But in that moment, I'm like, ooh. But it's like, of course, I'm glad I asked. Yeah.

If you hadn't, you just like fucking palmed your head like a basketball. But people do that. Yes. Because they're like, oh. But like, you know. And I think sometimes a lot of this woke shit comes down to simply that respect. Yeah. Of like, you know, is this okay?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Just don't touch my hair. I'm not gonna. Yeah. I didn't think I should.

I appreciate it. Yeah. So when's the new season start? Tito Queens? Yeah. It's already out. It is? We already did it?

Yeah. It's on? The whole thing's on? Don't fucking know. There's a whole generation of things happening that i just don't know or understand wait how did you hear of me though i knew of you from comedy and then i knew the book and then i knew the podcast okay yeah yeah nice i never know who i don't either knows who i am you know what i mean yeah i and most people don't know who i am same yeah it's like

people know who you are i think this is a little this is a little like faux humble moment you're having I don't think so I like it if you think about it because of the media universe we live in yeah in the big picture yeah I'm not Kevin Hart yeah so there is that weird zone I got all these things out there and if you're not and I don't know what they're walking into if they're walking into any of them yeah but like i got i saw on twitter today people like i just found your podcast because i saw you on the simpsons and this is 10 years in so it's not the way it used to be you know i got a hit show everyone's gonna know who i am you really don't so you walk around sort of when people are looking at you there's that moment you're like yeah it's me and then you realize they're not looking at you like that you have that i've had that i um

we went to i did like a girl's uh weekend for a birthday in vegas um for my birthday we're all hanging out at the pool yeah and uh this guy came over and he like he came like he looked like he knew who i was like fully fully, like he was gonna say something nice and then he just came over to be like, oh, we're closing the pool in 10 minutes. I need you guys to get out of here. And I was like, oh, you have no idea who the fuck I am. Oh, yeah, right.

Yeah, I was like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, T-Dub Queens, it's still, yeah, okay, got it. People love that show. They love the podcast. Was it hard to stop that, the podcast? It wasn't hard because I never liked to do anything forever. I know, but don't you feel like, was there an issue of like, on some level,

it probably reached a whole, there's probably a good chunk of the people that listen to the podcast that don't have HBO maybe or don't watch HBO or like, like you had to really say to that audience, go get HBO. Yeah. Which, yeah. Fucking help me buy my house. They did.

Yeah. You guys helped me buy my apartment in New York. But I just really, Jess and I were just getting so busy and I was just kind of like, I don't like to half-ass anything. Oh, yeah. And when you're doing it, when it's your job, it's your job, man. Yeah. I'm here on a Sunday talking to you. I know.

And I'm sure you would rather be just relaxing on a Sunday. It doesn't happen. Yeah. No. I got to record every Sunday. It's just because I was shooting. I have to do the interviews. I don't mind.

I don't have a sense of days or weeks. I don't know. Yeah, but we just got to a place, and I know for me personally, I just am like, if I can't do it, I'd just rather just kill it and move on. So, all right.

Anything else bothering you? How'd we handle this? All right. What, the interview? Yeah. I think it was great. I don't know if I said enough. About what? I don't know if I said enough. About what?

About, I don't know if anyone knows any more about me than beforehand. What do you think's missing exactly? Is there a part of you that we're not discussing? No, I'm really not. I will say I'm not that interesting. I'm not like- I think you are.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think it's been a good journey. You're very smart and like you're funny and your writing's good and but like I guess let's see if I have any more questions

that maybe I'm filtering because of what we've identified as my fear of saying yeah what's ask me something

that you think you are scared to ask me I'm not really scared yeah do you think there are people that really don't see color lines no yeah I don't see color lines?

No. Yeah. I don't either. That's the craziest thing that's ever been said. What I just said? No, no, no. When people are like, oh, I don't see color. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Right?

Of course you do. Of course you do. There might be a spectrum of how you judge that. Yeah. But unless you're like blind. Yeah. Or you do see it. Yeah.

What you do with that initial information is a whole other thing. Exactly. Right. But that's sort of, I guess that's probably a white person invention. Yeah, of course. Of course. What's in Malcolm X who said it? I don't see color lines.

These white people are just people. Yeah, man. It is just like, yeah, I just want to be able to do the comedy that I want to do. Have people in the room who are just different from me. That's my favorite thing is watching a comic who is so like i love watching tic notaro i will never be like her i will never tell commie like her and i love that i love watching people who are so different from me yeah she's like her own time zone it's great i've known her forever and it's just like every time you're around you're

like am i fitting in reality right now yeah and it And it's so great. I love that. I think there's so many people want, they just want to see themselves. And I'm always like, I want to see people who are different from me. Yeah, me too. I like a good story. Yeah. I like, I have a sort of, I have a secret love of goofy shit. Yeah. Like what?

I like people who are naturally physically funny. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they know how to really work it. Like to me, that's a fascinating innate ability. Yeah. Of people that are just like either uncomfortable or even somebody like Kevin James, who is just sort of like he's just worked up in every part of him. Like he just moves and he's funny.

Like people who can just like physically just be funny i love that yeah because like i'm such a heady dude you know and i can be physically funny but some guys just it's just so natural and it's uh i always i always am impressed with that yeah who are you who do you like the other than tig i love watching baron vaughn he's something like you know it's weird i interviewed him I was I was hard on him for a long time why wow I think we talked about on the podcast okay I didn't hear that because like and he knew it too yeah like you know he knew that I had sort of put him in the actor who wants to be comic category oh no come on that's not him. No, I know. He turned me around.

And he was great on your show. And he's very good with, yeah, voices. And he's pretty physically funny. Yeah. I love him. I love Michelle Buteau. I haven't seen her in so long.

She's so great. I remember when she was, like, I think the first time I met her, she was, like, it must have been, like, a long time ago.

She's been around for a while. Yeah. Right? Yeah, she's awesome. Yeah. She always, we just FaceTime wearing zit cream, and she just fucking kills me. I'll just be screaming in my apartment with laughter.

I'm fully obsessed with Ali Wong, and I tell her all the time. Oh, yeah, she's great. I feel like sometimes I talk to her like a fan. I'm always like, you're just so great, and I love you, and I tell her all the time. Oh yeah, she's great. I feel like sometimes I talk to her like a fan. I'm always like, you're just so great and I love you and I rewatch this. I'm like, we used to write together. She's so wonderful.

You wrote together where? When she lived in New York, we would just meet up at a coffee shop in Soho and work on bits and then she would go do her shows and I'd go do mine. And it was just like, she's so great. You guys are workers. She's a worker, man. I'm a worker.

I'm a grinder. I always have people say no. Like that's part of the reason why I started 2Duck Queens is because I couldn't get a writing job. No one would hire me for warmup. No one was interested in me at all. And I was like,

all right, I'm just gonna do my own thing over here. Yeah. Like I've been around so long though, you just sort of see people's process and how they're going and then you wonder it's sort of like are they going to evolve out of that yeah because there's sort of steps to people coming into themselves yeah you just sort of wonder like is that one gonna keep turning or is that gonna stay there yeah it's cool to watch someone find their voice and i think it's amazing for a long time it took me a while to find my voice and then i think a lot of it was i just had to get confidence

oh yeah it took me yeah like 25 years 30 years i'm serious you had your voice way before then no it was angrier and it was defensive it was angrier yeah and and like at some point once you know people started to appreciate what i did like i can walk on a stage now fearless yeah you know especially if it's my people but other like even more it's sort of just still starting to happen in a weird way because i think a lot of the job for a lot of years is just pretending not to be afraid until you you can really but to walk up and really be fearless, I mean, that's an amazing moment and it didn't happen to me for years.

Yeah, yeah. I think I'm almost there. I just really, so when Alana and I, we did our standup tour in 2017, we just like co-headlined together because I was going to quit standup. Like I was like,

I'll just do like two dope queens thing and I'll just be a writer but I don't want to, I don't know if I want to do stand-up anymore and then i went and i did it and i was like oh i'm good at this and i think i was so hung up on i don't know if i necessarily do stand-up the way that no i've certain comments you know what i mean so i was like oh am i not good because i don't do it the way that certain white guys do it. Right. And then it had to be like,

you don't have to do it that way. Like it can sort of kind of look any way that it wants as long as it's representing you. Believe me, I still do that to myself. Like how come I don't do it like certain white guys do it?

And, you know, but it's okay. You know, when you see somebody who kills all the time or who has, you know, big or who has big success and they're different than you primarily, it usually comes down to like, they write jokes. Yeah. Why can't I write jokes? Yeah.

And after a certain point, it's like you got to be like, this is my process. I do all right with it. Maybe it's not the most disciplined or the best way to go about it yeah but it's what works for me and after you've been doing something like for 30 years you're like what are you gonna sit down and write jokes yeah like i love like i love listening to jerry seinfeld talk about the process i'm also like i'm not gonna do that yeah i'm not doing that i have to like i have to wait until something hits me on stage. And it's the best thing. But that's like some sort of compulsive thing.

I mean, writing jokes is such a, it's a beautiful thing. And I love good jokes. But it's a real controlly thing. Where if you're up there and you've got an idea that you know is funny enough to get the laughs. And you're not sure where it's going to go. And that thing out of nowhere just comes in. Yeah. Because in that moment, you're like, I got it. You want to be funny in that moment. And then all of a sudden you've got because in that moment you're like i got it you

know you want to be funny in that moment and then all of a sudden you got your tag but you don't know where it came from yeah you know it came out of you but it came out of you in a moment you know that you know you had no control over it's the best that's the best i loved i loved doing it that way and i was for a long time i was like well maybe i'm not like a real stand-up because i don't sit down and write like two hours a day. And then I had to be like, no, that's not the way I think. That's not the way I talk. Yeah.

I am in no position to judge how people approach, you know, what they do on stage. And really, you know, standup comedy as a job, you know, is a thing that has a history and it is what it is. But, you know, in all honesty, there have been from the beginning of modern stand up, there have been plenty of storytellers. There have been plenty of people that work in different ways. You know, how it became this sort of Seinfeldian or this idea. You know, there have always been schtick guys and joke guys, but there's also been long form dudes, you know, as far back as the 50s. And even if you listen to Lenny Bruce, who people don't really listen to. But they reference him, but they don't listen to him.

Yeah, but I mean, like it was hit or miss, man. And it was, you know, long form and odd and esoteric. And it just, at some point I accepted that, you know, it's a very broad trip, you know, and there's going to be guys that are like, that's not real standup. It's like, eh, it is though. I'm up there there's going to be guys that are like, that's not real standup. It's like, yeah,

it is though. Yeah. I'm up there by myself getting laughs. Fuck off. Yeah. That's standup. Yeah. And the great thing about now it's like,

Hey, I don't have to be for everybody. I can be for my people, you know, fuck off. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think it's like you,

you have to sort of talk to people who are quote unquote different from you. I don't feel different from you that much. But that's what I'm saying. Like when I'm on the drive here, I was a little nervous. I was like, I've listened to the podcast. Like he's really, I'm like, I just don't know how we're going to relate. And then I got here and I'm like, oh, it's fucking fine. We're talking about collagen powder.

Like we're the same. Do you know what I mean? Yeah yeah i do that with every interview yeah every interview i have i'm like oh boy what am i yeah and then you're like oh we're just fucking people it's fine well my yeah my big like it's like when you talked about preparing for gloria steinem you know that you know i've done that before yeah with certain people because i Yeah. Because you want to afford them the respect they deserve for who they are if they are that type of person. Yeah. You want to respect everybody, but there are some people that are sort of like, I got some ground to cover. Yeah.

Some shit has to be talked about. Yeah. When I interviewed Michelle Obama, I prepped for two and a half days. Right. Yeah. And what paid off from that process? All of it? Or were you sort of

like i didn't have this was easier than i thought it was it was what i think it did was there was no way that i was going to fuck it up because i was so prepared even if her and i didn't hit it off yeah i was like there's no way this is not going to be good because i know this woman in her book inside out yeah and so to me me, it reinforced, I think sometimes people who are slackers and they're around someone who works really hard, they're always like, oh, calm down. You're preparing too much. And it made me go, no, bitch, you should prepare like that for everybody.

Treat everybody like they're Michelle Obama. Yeah, I think so. But sometimes I think the liability to that is also the same as the joke writing predicament. Yeah. Is that, you know, if you already know the answer you're going to get, then you know the question

and you know what the answer to the question is, you know, it'll lead the thing in a certain way. And you might deny yourself like some organic moments of like why are we just talking like you know like when i interviewed barack obama you know i i had to prepare because i had an hour yeah you know it wasn't going to be a fundamentally political interview and like i was jammed up with that shit yeah and he walks in and starts just busting my balls it's great yeah and i was like was like, oh, okay. Yeah.

There we go. Yeah. And it worked out because, you know, you make yourself available for that. But I don't think it's bad to have all that shit in there. Yeah. And then, you know, like, I think, like, I really enjoy this. I'm like, we're just hanging out. Yeah.

And it's not like, how did 2W Queens get started? And it's like, no one cares. No one cares how I got started. Yeah. It's more, you know, people go watch it. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm doing that, it's like not going well.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's good that we're just sort of able to like just talk about, I don't hang out with a lot of 55 year old white guys. Yeah. So I'm like, this is great. I've made contact. Yeah. We did it.

Yeah. We solved all the problems we figured it out you guys oh thank god i'm glad you all could witness that thanks for doing it that was fun thank you so much so that was a good chat that was fun it. It sounds good in here. I keep noticing that. Maybe it's these new headphones. I don't know. But, yeah, go to my tour page, WTFpod.com slash tour for those England dates that are coming up.

The UK dates. I'll just go through all the dates. Can I? Would you? Let me. April 4th at the Lowry in Salford, England. I think that might be sold out. Royal Festival Hall in London, England, April 6th.

There are definitely tickets for that. The Rep Theater in Birmingham, England, April 8th. There are tickets. Vicar Street in Ireland, April 11th. Dublin, some tickets left. April 18th, 19th, and 20th at the American Comedy Company in San Diego. Comedy Club on State,

May 23rd, 24th, and 25th in Madison, Wisconsin. Vermont Comedy Club, June 6th, 7th, and 8th in Burlington, Vermont. Those are sold out. Helium in St. Louis, June 13th, June 14th, and June 15th. I think there's tickets for that. And the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina,

has been shifted because of an engagement I have to do. So Raleigh, North Carolina, is now August 1, 2, and 3, if there's still a world. Oh, I don't want to be negative at the end there. I think I've got my guitar hooked up. So now I will play for you. Here's some guitar meditative. oh um ¶¶ Boomer lives! So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those.

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See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.