WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1006 - John Lithgow

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

John Lithgow can go from playing the sweetest characters you’ll ever see to truly deranged psychopaths, sometimes within the same movie. He’s good at playing kind and evil in equal measure partly because he developed his acting range at a young age growing up around his dad’s traveling Shakespeare festivals. John talks with Marc about his many memorable roles and how working on 3rd Rock from the Sun led him to creating children’s entertainment, from voice acting to songs to books to live concerts. John also explains what it’s like to put his own twist on historical characters, like Winston Churchill, Roger Ailes, and now Bill Clinton in the Broadway play Hillary and Clinton. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucking delics? What the fuck tuplets?

What? Yeah, how's it going? You fucking deluxe what the fuck tuplets what yeah how's it going you guys the what the fuck tuplets hey it's mark maron this is my show wtf welcome to it how's it going john lithgow is here yeah yeah the john lithgow what is your first memories of john lithgow scary right usually 90 of the time unless you grew up with third rock i didn't but uh for me i think it's probably um i could it possibly be blowout oh maybe it is i i just know it was it he can be a little scary even when he's not being scary he's a little intense like he's intense any way you slice it when he he's scary, it's really fucking scary. When he's nice, he's really fucking nice. And when he's scared, he's really fucking scared. Great actor. No doubt.

Great actor. Thrilled to have him. So he's here. What else do I need to tell you? I would like to encourage you to get tickets to my London show. I'm not begging, but it would be nice. I was there. Maybe I was there a year or so ago, and now I'm back at Royal Festival Hall, April 6th, 2019. That's this week. And it's a 7.30

p.m. show. I believe there's still tickets left. I think Birmingham, there's a few left. I know Manchester sold out. Birmingham on the 8th is, there might be a few left there. Vicar Street in Ireland, Dublin, April 11th. I hope that those, I think there's a few left there vicar street in ireland dublin april 11th i hope that those i think there's a few left don't know and then i've got dates coming up in san diego in uh in madison wisconsin in burlington vermont in st louis in raleigh north carolina and some more dates will be added you can go to wtf pod tour. Is that right? WTFpod.com slash tour. That'll get you those links. So look, I'll be honest with you. I'm going to read some emails because I'm doing this a few days before I leave. You're listening to this on Monday probably, so I recorded it

a few days ago, like the day before I left for New York. I don't need to confuse things, but it's not last night. It's a few nights ago. Because I'm traveling tomorrow. I'm trying to pack. I'm trying to pack for the Europe trip. All I want to take is a carry-on because checking bags is such a fucking mess. And you just don't know what the fuck is going to happen. But I'm going to be gone for a while.

So how do I pack? Look, all right, I'll how do I like, look, all right, I'll just do laundry. I'll do laundry on the road. And even though I got a little cash in the bank, I'll probably go to a fucking laundromat if I can find one. You know why? Because, uh, I don't mind spending a few hours at a laundromat. I don't mind engaging with just sitting there, looking at the dryer, thinking about how clean my clothes are going to be. And just like, like I'm doing something out in the world. I should do more of that.

We should all do a little more laundromat stuff. So, you know, I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. I'm willing to admit my mistakes most of the time stubbornly. Sometimes I'll hold on to them for a little while. It depends. But in a second, I'll address some apparent mistakes but this one was uh oh this was just a question from who's this from ew uh subject line how do you know hey mark i'm listening to you interview that actor who plays

the punisher john bernthal you were asking him about self-doubt i was listening to you push the topic and push the topic and push the topic. I was beginning to feel uncomfortable. I just felt uncomfortable when you wrote that three times. Just then you switched to asking him about meeting his wife. How did you learn when to switch topics? It seemed like a great time to switch. It felt like you squeezed the lemon right to the edge, then switched. I know I will get stuck in a topic when talking to people. There seems to be a real art to jumping from topic to topic. Any tips? Thanks, EW. Yeah, when you're looking at them as you're saying the thing over and over again, and they appear annoyed or glazed over, or they kind of shut down,

or they don't hold your gaze anymore or they walk away or they just look at you like what the fuck is wrong with you those are all indicators of time to switch topics also this is an indicator if they say could you quit asking me that that that's an indicator uh or this one what the fuck are you talking about? That's a sure sign that you might want to move on. Or how about this one? Yeah, I don't feel comfortable talking about that with you. Yeah, but see, like, the thing is, is like, you can read all of those things that I just said

on someone's face if you're paying attention. You can also, like, there are faces for fuck you. There are faces for I don't want to answer that. There are faces for not comfortable. There are faces for I don't want to answer that. There are faces for not comfortable. You know, it's a mixture. But I'd say one of the tips is if they say shut up or move on or don't talk to me about that, that's a good time to to not talk about it anymore. Here's another email. Rob Lowe interview subject line.

Hey, Mark, I've enjoyed just about all of your 1000 podcasts. So this is coming from a fan during your interview with Rob Lowe interview subject line. Hey, Mark, I've enjoyed just about all of your 1,000 podcasts, so this is coming from a fan. During your interview with Rob Lowe, I noticed a derisive tone in your voice whenever you discussed his new gig as a game show host. In fact, there was a good amount of contemptuous laughter on your part, which your guests gracefully ignored. Of course, you have every right to judge someone

for their choice of occupation, but during those parts of the interview, I think you came off sounding like a dick. Still a big fan, Carl. P.S. 100%. Well, Carl, you're 100% misreading that. Mr. Lowe and myself had a nice time. Sometimes I change tones

to sort of more connect with the guest. And I thought Rob Lowe could take a little ball busting, which he could. You didn't see him smiling. You didn't see him laughing. He's got to sell the show. He can't, you know. Look, I know how he feels. We know how he feels. I mean, it might be a great show, but come on, man. It's a giant mechanical arm that's throwing people around, stops in front of questions. Give me a fucking break, dude. It's not a matter of judgment.

It's bizarro and funny. And yeah, I was slightly derisive with Rob Lowe because that's what it required for us to fucking have a good conversation just trust me a little bit jesus christ is this derisive carl is does this how does this feel carl and because i don't think this is derisive i think this is annoyed if i'd be like if i'd be like come on get carl i mean are you are you like really you're you're mad about me making fun of the game show? Carl, are you seriously? Seriously, are you really upset with me because I made fun of the giant arm amusement park game show that Rob Lowe is hosting? Are you really?

Come on, Carl. I mean, really? How'd that sound? I think that was more what I was doing, and I have no problem with it. Here's one. Language landmines. So this is where we get into making mistakes, as we do, especially if you're old. Older, old enough to be set in some bad habits, perhaps, or the ones that you don't even know you have.

Dearest Mark, in your intriguing interview with the charming Phoebe Robinson, both of you used words that could certainly be offensive to native peoples. You said off the res to describe somebody having a possible psychotic break. And she said tribe referring to belonging to a group. I'm not in any way politically correct or a ball buster. And I was not personally offended. However, I thought you would find it interesting how even those of us who are trying have yet to parse the institutionalized racism against our most marginalized groups from our casual language. That is a fine sentence. The fuckery of our cultural legacy is embedded in the very words, no matter our intent. Thanks for all you do. I enjoy virtually hanging out with you and your guests twice a week. You feel like a good friend I've never met, and listening to you has helped me know myself better

and grow. Sincerely, Daniel. Okay, you're right. Language is important. Language is powerful. Language can do good things. It can do bad things, but it does get in there and dictate the movement of culture. It dictates a lot of things, especially through repetition. And I get it. These things can evolve. But when I read yours, I was like, yeah, I kind of understand what he was saying. Then I got this email. Off the res?

Four question marks. Glad I stuck with listening to the full show. Surprised to hear you say off res. The interview with Phoebe was so thoughtful. Surprised you made the comment in real time after that interview. Think you need to address the comment. K. Okay. Okay. I know now. Off the res is not good because it's offensive to native peoples. I'm sorry sorry i will not say it anymore not a problem it's out i removed it but these two emails were reasonably toned and i think that uh obviously i can't expect much from

bullies on the right but i can't expect something from bullies on the left in the sense that if you if there is a teachable moment or whatever they call it then do it teach it i mean don't condescend and belittle and and indict somebody for for you know saying something that they may not have known was wrong and it feels good i know there you know there's a lot of hopelessness and powerlessness in progressive people right now. But that doesn't mean you need to condescend, bully, or indict people for things they might not understand. Just say these two emails were reasonable. They weren't like, you fucking idiot.

You fucking racist. You fucking piece of shit. Don't you know what you just did? No, I didn't. I didn't know. And if you talk to me like that, I'm not going to keep doing it, but I'm probably going to just shut down and not really take it in and then secretly resent you and think you're a condescending, self-righteous douchebag. Even though I get what you're saying, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to like the way you said it. And who the fuck are you to talk to me like that? So if there is a teachable moment, I was just talking to somebody I made up in my

head, by the way, you know, teach it, teach it nicely, teach it empathetically, teach it like, you know, like somebody who cares. All right, look. Oh, you know what? I didn't get to talk about this. Last week, my congressman, Adam Schiff, did an amazing thing in a hearing in Congress, sitting next to a bunch of Republicans and just really giving it to them, just talking about, it was sort of like, you had to watch it. Go look it up. Adam Schiff, about it was sort of like you had to watch it go look it up adam schiff uh you know uh amazing sort of almost rabbinical rant uh in the hearing there in congress about russia and he says it's not okay and and like all it was really missing being a jew and having grown up you know going to synagogue sometimes in congregation it really felt like a classically Jewish responsive reading. It just it just it felt like that here.

I actually found the text of it and I swear to God it will work. They should. It would be perfect for synagogue. My colleagues might think it's OK that the Russians offer dirt on the Democratic candidate for president as part of what's described as the Russian government's effort to help the Trump campaign. Then the congregation goes, it's not OK. You might think that's OK, congregation. It's not OK. My colleagues might think it's OK that when that was offered to the son of the president who had a pivotal role in the campaign, that the president's son did not call the FBI. He did not adamantly refuse that foreign help. No, instead, that son said that he would love the help with the Russians. You might think that's okay.

It's not okay that he took that meeting. It's not okay. You might think it's okay that Paul Manafort, the campaign chair, someone with great experience running campaigns, also took that meeting. It's not okay. You know what I'm talking about. You know what the rabbi says something, then the congregation answers. You know what?

Thank you, Adam Schiff. He's a nice guy. I think he's a vegan because of cholesterol issues. Anyways, listen, John Lithgow is here. He's in the new film adaptation of Stephen King's Pet Sematary, which opens this Friday, April 5th. He's also on Broadway with Laurie Metcalf in the play Hillary and Quentin at the Golden Theater. It's in previews now and opening night is April 18th. Enjoy Mr.

Lithgow and myself. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by

the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Okay, so you're wearing a Steppenwolf jersey, and I know why. You do know why? Yes, I do. How do you know?

Because I'm working with Lori Metcalf right now. Oh, that's right. She'd left her Steppenwolf jersey, her hoodie, in my old garage. By mistake? Yeah, and it was her favorite thing. Uh-huh. And it was sort of a thing, you know, because she was doing the play on Broadway, the women, what is it? Oh, yeah, the Three Tall Women.

Three Tall Women. And she was very upset that she'd left her hoodie, and I arranged to have it sent to her ASap so she could have it and i told the story on the show and they sent me one right well i mean what what is it when you when you think about steppenwolf as a stage actor you know because like in my mind it's just sort of like there's an intensity man there's like there you know you think of malkovich and you think of like even the next generation or joan and Tracy and and Laurie there's this intensity there's this rawness there's a you know and it's sort of a a school of thought yeah it's kind of like the Chicago school they they brought those productions to

New York and yeah the late 70s yeah and it was like this Steppenwolf did yeah yeah this bracing breath of air from chicago there's a there's a certain defiance about it the windy city yeah the angry wind when i was in high school there was a big hit show yeah on broadway called uh from the second city yeah and it was a review it was it was the second city review yeah with Alan Arkin and Barbara Harris. Wait, when you were in high school in Ohio? No, I went to lots of schools, but I finished high school in Princeton, New Jersey. So you were in New Jersey.

Yeah. And that was sort of just the Second City Review would have been just post the Compass Players. Yeah. Right. They came to New York and performed on Broadway and made this smash hit, but they would come down to Princeton on Monday night. Their night off, busman's holiday. So they could just improvise instead of doing a polished Broadway show. And there I was in a tiny theater.

I saw Alan Arkin when he must have been about 29 years old. Oh, my God. It was all comedy? Oh, yeah. It was just flat out hilarious. Wow. And very interactive improv. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was just not polished at all. Right. I was in like the second row of this like 150 seat theater. Yeah. On the Princeton University campus. Yeah. I was just a high school kid. Well, I mean, were you acting in high school?

Yeah. I mean, I was acting and acting and acting. Yeah. I was just a high school kid. Well, I mean, were you acting in high school? Yeah. I mean, I was acting and acting and acting. Yeah. I was in a theater family. I grew up, my dad produced a regional theater. Where? Mainly in Ohio in the 50s and 60s. He created Shakespeare festivals.

There's this- What part of Ohio? Yellow Springs, where Antioch is. I lived in Waterville, outside of Toledo. Were you born of Ohio? Yellow Springs, where Antioch is. I lived in Waterville, outside of Toledo. Were you born in Ohio? No, I was born in Rochester. Did you spend time in Rochester? No.

I was gone by two years old. Yellow Springs is the closest I have to a hometown, although it only lasted until I was about 11. Why all the moving? Well, my dad was a theater producer, and they kept on going. That's not the military. It was like the opposite of a military brat. It was a theater rat upbringing.

And his legacy theater is the Great Lakes Theater Festival in Cleveland, which still goes on. He started it in 1962 as the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival. Wow. So how did he start in it? Was he an actor? He acted and directed, but principally he was the artistic director of all these theaters. And he ran the McCarter Theater at Princeton for about 10 years.

Uh-huh. When I, around about the time, the first pro job I had, I mean, with an equity contract, playing proper roles, was working for my dad in McCarter. Yeah? How old were you? That was about 24 years old. So you grew up in the theater? Mm-hmm. Just wandering around the theater? Was your mom involved? Just as a kind of keeping it all together.

She had started out acting, but I never saw her act. She had quit. Except as a mother? She had four kids. I mean, we were a real gypsy wagon. Wow. And she just kept it all together. And like your dad would just pull up stakes and say, we're going here.

Sometimes he pulled up stakes. Sometimes he was run out of town. Sometimes he got a better gig and we moved on. Why would he was run out of town. Sometimes he got a better gig and we moved on. Why would he be run out of town, John? Well, the theater would go belly up and they hadn't paid their payroll taxes or whatever. It was crazy. None of which I knew about as a kid. We just packed our suitcases and got into the station wagon.

And it seems like he was on some sort of mission. There must've been some sort of belief in the magic of it that Shakespeare was necessary for people to, to be decent or something. He absolutely loved Shakespeare. He was a, he was a kind of shy, isolate kid as I, as I, He was a kind of shy, isolate kid. That's the lore in our family. And somewhere around 15, 16 years old, he discovered Shakespeare and read the entire canon start to finish. Have you? No.

Come on. It's like reading the dictionary. But he was passionate about it. And he so fervently believed in it let me describe his most successful venture with shakespeare it was about an eight year long shakespeare festival in yellow springs ohio yeah uh this troupe of actors who would perform outdoors on the main building right in front of this big, beautiful Victorian Gothic brick building. It was like an extended porch or something? It was.

They sort of built a unit stage. And in the course of a summertime, they would open seven Shakespeare plays in nine weeks, rehearsing in the day, performing at night. And once all seven of day, performing at night. And once all seven of them, seven. Yeah. They opened them all.

Then they ran them in rotating repertory, a different play every night of the week. So he had a Shakespearean company. Yeah. Of got people. They were mainly young, fresh out of the oven graduates of Carnegie Tech, now Carnegie Mellon. Okay. And really good actors. Yeah. I mean, you probably wouldn't have heard any of their names now, but theater actors in

the 60s and 70s, these were the major guys. Oh, yeah? They went on to be the big guys? They were just tremendous. And I always thought, how good could this possibly have been? Just throwing together an entire hamlet in one week.

When I became a young and pretentious young actor, I sort of dismissed it in my own memory. And someone sent me a reel-to-reel tape of one of the productions. Like, Merry Wives of Windsor. Just out of nowhere?

A comedy where not a single joke is comprehensible to a modern audience. And you heard these young actors performing out of doors, no amplification, and the audience roaring with laughter, and the acting was fantastic. High energy, fast as lightning, and with incredible diction. It was just exhilarating.

And sure enough, it created this incredible success over many years. People would come from all over the country to spend a week and see. In Ohio. Yeah, southern Ohio. spend a week and see in ohio you know yeah southern ohio it's weird because uh not to be condescending but you don't hear about ohio being a cultural mecca well anymore there are listen you you know your pockets you cross this country it's amazing how many how many pockets there are yeah there's just like you know it's see like it's easy to do what I just did, is just where you draw these lines, where like, that state.

Yeah, I know, but I mean, these Shakespeare festivals still exist all over the place, in Utah, and God knows San Francisco, and Ashland, Oregon, that's a big place. That's a big, big deal over the years. And what's your relationship with Shakespeare,

outside of not having read the canon? I mean, I've talked a lot on this show with people about how I just can't, it's hard for me to access. Yeah. And then Sir Ian McKellen did it to my face. He did Shakespeare right to my face. Did it bring you around? Yeah, well, I mean, sure.

I mean, I understood it. I felt the emotions of it. I can understand it. If I listen, but it's staying in the pocket. Yes. You have to give it time and you have to understand about a Shakespeare play when you go to see it. Yeah. You got to know the story.

If you're seeing it fresh, you're not going to understand the first half hour. Right. And then bit by bit, the story emerges and you begin to appreciate what a great storyteller he was. Right. But the trick of Shakespeare is, look, he was a poet. Yeah. I mean, and he had all these devices for captivating an audience. Yeah.

A lot of it had to do with the beauty of the language. Right. But if you see pretty much any Shakespeare play, some of it is in verse and some of it is in prose. Right. Tends to be a sort of class system. Right. The noble characters will speak in verse. Oh, yeah?

And the supernumeraries, the bit parts. The rabble? Like the gravedigger in Hamlet. Yeah. They will, they'll talk colloquial language. And it's the language of 400 years ago. Yeah. So you have to, it's like watching a French movie with subtitles.

Yeah. You sort of gradually get into the rhythm of it. And, you know, what I've always, my little paradigm for it was that Shakespeare and all writing for the stage is a combination of three things. Yeah. The meaning, the emotion, and the music. The meaning is simply making it comprehensible. Yeah. And that's not easy with Shakespeare.

Right. Because you have to get an extremely willing audience. Yeah. with Shakespeare. Right. Because you have to get an extremely willing audience. Yeah. That has some,

but it's surprising, it's amazing how untutored people can actually be swept away by it. Sure. The emotion is just the emotion

of the characters, the interaction of Iago and Othello and Desdemona. Yeah. And the music is the extraordinary sound. Of the language.

Of the language. Yeah. Which is why we are still quoting it. Right. Which is why Ian McKellen sat here and- And he can do it. And sort of dazzled.

I think he did a piece that was about immigrants, I think. Yes, right. From Thomas, is it from Moore? What is it called? It was a sort of discovered piece of Shakespeare. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thomas Moore. Thomas Moore, right.

It was a play about Thomas Moore. Yeah, he did it right there, as close as you are to me. Yeah. Just look at me right in the eye. Yeah. How often do you do Shakespeare? Rarely. Yeah.

I did King Lear a few years ago. You were at King Lear? In Central Park. That's a lot. It was a fantastic experience. And I did Malvolio with the Royal Shakespeare Company in 2007. Uh-huh. Royal Shakespeare Company in 2007. But before then, I had not done Shakespeare since I was a kid, since, well, I think 1975. I was Laertes in Hamlet in the park. I don't know. Other things

come along. What did you learn from Lear? I mean, what was your experience? Because that's one of those things where an actor is ready to take it on you have to be a certain age and then it will reveal itself to you what was revealed to you john from lear what what did you come out of it feeling different about oh i just it just felt incredible to finally stand and deliver yeah uh that language is titanic yeah and the emotions are are huge especially for an old man yeah and it's true you have to be old enough to play it but you also have to be young enough to play it because it's so incredibly demanding yeah and i did it on the young end i think i was 69 years old i know wasn't olivier near death when he did yeah and and mckellen is doing it for the second time in about

15 years i guess last year he did it. Well, you're one of those guys, too, that's always seemed to be somewhat middle-aged your entire life. Yes. I remember auditioning for a director named Stephen Porter in New York. I think probably before I had a New York job. And I was auditioning for the young romantic character secondary role in a Moliere play. And he said, you know, you're going to grow into yourself as an actor. He said basically what you just said.

I've always been old. I think that comes from growing up doing, I mean, I did do a huge amount of Shakespearean acting as a kid, right up until I was like 19, 20. Because your dad would throw you in stuff? Yeah, exactly. Including when I was a little boy playing mustard seed in Midsummer Night's Dream. Well, was there, when you did that, like having this, like, it seems like your father must have been a passionate guy. Yeah. Was he? Well, he certainly was when it came to putting on plays. Right.

Yeah. A man of tremendous passion. But at home, a little detached? Oh, he was very sweet. Yeah. He was just a sweet, ingenial, kind of calm guy. But boy, you see him play these bravura roles in Shakespeare. Oh, and they all came out?

I used to imitate him for my friends in grade school. You know? Your dad acting. You would imitate your dad acting. Yeah, playing Stefano in The Tempest, you know, the comic drunkard. Uh-huh. And he really opened up, huh? Yeah, yeah.

Huh. And did any of your siblings get into the business? Well, both my sisters were teachers. Yeah. But they did a huge amount of theater in the schools. In fact, my older sister, Robin, she became the arts administrator of the whole unified school district here in Los Angeles, creating arts programs, including theater programs for kids. Oh, that's noble. It was noble, and it was a huge success until 2008. They took the money away? All the money went out.

So her job became supervising the dismantling of the programs that she had created. Heartbreaking. One of those real tragedies. That's where they decide to take the money from. Well, it tends to be the first thing to go, because to all appearances, it's not the thing that leads to academic success and career success. Might lead to decent children.

It feeds the soul. It's the other half of an education. Well, that seems to be part of your life now. I mean, you do a lot of stuff for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for noticing. That's sort of my hidden career.

Yeah. Flying under the radar. Well, let's go back. So when you're a kid, are you just picking up acting by being around it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I loved the whole atmosphere, me and my siblings and even some of my best friends. Yeah. We considered these young actors in their mid-20s and early 30s our best friends. Well, that's interesting. So you had this input from these young people who are in that zone of self-discovery. What years was this, in the early 70s?

Principally the late 50s, earlys okay so the the culture hadn't broken up yet but uh in the sense of like uh people doing their own thing man well almost yeah i mean well i guess my question is were these guys kind of like uh these men and women that you know were were sort of mentoring you just by proximity, were they a wild bunch? Not really. I mean, no more than most actors are. They're young tearaways. They had a lot of fun.

Yeah. But they, no, it was not, the revolution had not arrived in those years. Right. You know, when I started acting seriously for my dad at 18 19 that was literally in 63 64 right and that was just before the deluge yeah yeah but you felt it coming did it like was it no no we we were in this little extraordinary little bubble right everything was about about Shakespeare right about acting yeah and so no so you're just picking up pointers yeah how do you learn to act at that point like I mean you know it was not I was not I certainly didn't intend to be an actor I didn't want to

be an actor yeah uh I wasn't I was an artist I was I was a very serious artist. Painter? I'm a painter and printmaker. Uh-huh. And I intended to do that. In high school. Yeah, very serious. Well, I was going, commuting from Princeton, New Jersey to the Art Students League

to draw nude models. What's the Art Students League? In New York. Oh, yeah? It's a great old institution on 57th Street. Still around? Oh, yeah. Yeah?

And they just went to, what do you do, take classes there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I took a sort of teenagers drawing and watercolor class with a bunch of really good school of visual arts type New York City kids. So that was the goal. But you're always going to be an artist. Well, at that point, you know, I did lots. I did woodcuts.

And I had extremely good public school art classes back in those days. Yeah. But I went to Harvard. Yeah. Mainly because I got into Harvard, which was if you seriously wanted to be a painter, that was the completely wrong thing to do because you. Because you don't study art at Harvard. Had your family gone to Harvard? No.

You just were a smart guy. I just got in. Yeah. I had had such a unique childhood, I suppose. Uh-huh. I was such an oddity. And I was, you know, I acted and I painted. I was an interesting kid.

Yeah. And what year was that at Harvard? I started in 63, graduated in 67. And as soon as I got there, I fell in with the theater gang and it was all extracurricular. You didn't study it, but there were tremendously talented kids.

Was it like, was the hasty pudding doing things? The hasty pudding was kind of beneath my dignity. I was a very pretentious and... Woodcutter. Hasty Pudding doing things? The Hasty Pudding was kind of beneath my dignity. I was a very pretentious and I was an esthete. I was playing Tartuffe. Was it a troupe of non-theater major actors? Yeah, and there was no theater major. We just ran off and did our thing. But at least two-thirds of my waking hours were spent.

And not just theater, but I directed operas. At Harvard? At Harvard. I was the president of the Gilbert and Sullivan Society. I did patter songs in like six GNS operettas. in like six G&S operettas. It was just this four years of just exuberant, fervent, unsupervised creative activity for a young performer.

And what were you actually majoring in? English history and literature. And did you do well? I did fine, yeah. So I guess they're connected. Oh, they're definitely connected. But I went off from Harvard, I went right to London on a Fulbright grant to study acting at Lambda. I mean, I was already, I could have gone right into the profession, but I, for one thing,

I wanted to go to England. Yeah. I'd never been to England before. And the American repertory was not in Harvard. No, it was not. There was no professional troupe in that Loeb Drama Center. It was all students. It was our big clubhouse. But you had a stage. We had a stage, beautiful facilities. We had professional supervisory staff, a staff designer, a staff tech director. Oh, really? So they gave you all that? So they encouraged you? They gave us, although we stood in and worked.

In fact, we spurned their advice. We were really arrogant little pricks back in those days. Well, I mean, I think that Harvard, that's not unusual. No, it's an abiding characteristic of Harvard grads. Yeah, it's part of the application process. They decide whether you're right for the school. Just how arrogant are you? Exactly.

So you got a Fulbright to go to England and study at which place? At Lambda. Which stands for what? London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. It's one of the three or four kind of pillars of the community. The big one. One of the big ones. There's RADA, Lambda Central, and...

What's the difference? Well, Lambda's the best. No, they actually, there's very much a traditional academic training in England. There always has been certain basic things you study. Like? RADA is the one with the Royal Charter. And it has had all sorts of major, you know, the late Albert Finney as of yesterday. He was a RADA grad.

You know that guy? I never met Albert Finney. He did some good work. I exchanged wonderful You know that guy? I never met Albert Finney. He did some good work. I exchanged wonderful letters with him, but I never met him. And Tom Courtney and all these... Lambda was

always regarded as sort of the proletarian alternative to RADA, but now their status is absolutely the same. And Lambda's an incredible institution. So you're coming in with a lot of Shakespearean experience. Yeah, but I haven't put it to work much.

Right. You know, just a couple of productions over the years. And when you say academic in terms of the training, what does that mean? How do they start you out? What do you got to learn? Sword fighting and dancing? Absolutely.

Sword fighting, historic dance, stage movement, mean how they start you out what do you gotta oh my god fighting and dancing absolutely sword fighting historic dance uh stage movement voice diction and yeah different classes for for diction and vocal projection yeah uh and and and a lot of uh scene work a lot of shakespeare checkoff shaw uh-huh uh it was a an. It was a classical training. Lambda has this D group, this one-year group, which sort of compacts the entire three or four years. Is that what you did? That's what I did, and then extended the grant for another year.

And did what? Hung around London. It was an incredible time, end of the 60s. So that's when it all breaks open. It was breaking open then, for sure. And the theater was incredible back then. This was when Peter Brook was doing, he was a young man. Yeah.

Peter Hall was the director of the National Theater, and Trevor Nunn became the youngest director ever of the RSC. So you're just hanging out and you're going to those things. Going to everything. Yeah. And, you know, the school was nine to five every day. It was really hard work. Yeah.

And then the second year when I was no, I'd completed that one-year program. I just, I basically, it was Vietnam time, and I wanted to hang on to my federal grant as long as I could to stay out of the war. Right. And I said, renew my grant, and I'll find something to do. That kept you out of the war? Up to a point. And then at a certain point, I was drafted anyway.

You were? Yeah. And what happened? I just got out of it. Pure acting. That's what it was like back in those days. As if your life depended on it. As if our lives depended on it. So with the federal grant, you were somewhat protected because they weren't going after people who were engaged at that level? Well, if you stayed in school, you were protected up to a point. It was just after I got out of the draft that the draft lottery came in. It was an incredible, intense year, that particular year.

69? 1968, 69. If you think about watershed sort of benchmark years in American history, 68 was right up there. I mean, that's the year that Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated in the Democratic Convention. Right. And Nixon beating Humphrey and Watergate, all the seeds of what,

well, Watergate was four years later. But there I was in England for two years, thinking a lot of the time, thinking, what am I doing here when the country's going all to hell? Did you feel, was it a similar feeling to what we're feeling now? Everybody thought the center was not holding, that the whole country was falling apart back in those days. I mean, there was a tremendous anti-war and

anti-draft movement. I graduated from Harvard and literally everybody I know found a way to get out of the draft. So you're in England and you're going to theater and you're seeing all this great stuff. And how do you know you got drafted? Oh, I got a draft notice from my draft board in Trenton, New Jersey. They didn't know I was in England. Yeah. And they forwarded along your folks? So I went off to a draft physical at an RAF Air Force base where there was a US presence and a bunch of Air Force guys basically said, you don't want to go? All right. Really? I mean, they had no dog in the fight. It was Army versus Air Force, like a football game. So you just went there and you didn't have to act crazy? I just basically acted like what I was. I just amplified it.

Yeah. Which was what? I just said, I have a pathological fear of conflict. I had actually attempted to get out of the draft as a conscientious objection because I objected to the war. Right. But they had completely discarded that. Yeah, that wasn't working anymore. That was all like a written application that was rejected. Right.

So I didn't even attempt that. So you didn't have to cry or shit your pants? I did cry. I did cry. I fainted when they drew my blood. I felt so ashamed of myself. For doing that? Well, it was like I was acting, but I wasn't acting for the right reasons. I wasn't acting for an audience and telling a story. Right. But you feel you don't have any regrets about that, though, do you? I think I've lived a... Sure, that regret has stayed with me.

You know, that moment for young men, the late 60s, is like a third rail of American society. You rarely get guys to tell the story of how they got out of the draft because there's a lingering shame to that, I think. And yet back in those days, you would get stoned and tell your hilarious story to everybody. Right. It was like Alice's Restaurant. Right. You know, that big hit song, that big Arlo Guthrie saga was all about pretending to be crazy to get

out of the draft and how it didn't work. Right. And he got out of the draft anyway, because he had thrown garbage in the wrong place a year before and they saw that he had a record. That was a classic story, but we all had a comic story, like a stand-up comedy routine. Unless you hadn't gone through the agony quite yet. Right. Up until then, you were just a nervous wreck. And afterwards, you had your war story too, except that it was an anti-war story. Yeah, but it's interesting that the shame sort of lingers because you didn't man up

or that? There's some element of that. I mean, I remember I worked with a wonderful actor named Dennis Arndt. He's just a terrific guy. And we did a film called Distant Thunder, which was not a successful film. We were both playing Vietnam Bush vets.

We shot it up in Vancouver. And Denny and I went and actually hung out with these Bush vets in the Olympic Peninsula. What's a Bush vet? Guys who just went to live in the woods.

Veterans whose lives were so wrecked that they basically went off the grid. Went off the grid. Yeah. And we hung out with these guys for three or four days

and went to their counseling meetings. And oh God, it was so, and I felt, I'm just acting the part. I feel like such a fraud. Yeah.

And Denny had been a chopper pilot in Vietnam. He'd gone through the whole drill. Yeah. And I said, Denny, I didn't go, and I can't get interacting with these guys. I can't get over this sense of shame. Yeah. And he said, John, I went to Vietnam, and I can't get over my sense of shame. We're all casualties of that war.

And it's hard to bring that back to life for people who aren't over 70 years old and who lived through all that. Yeah. It's heavy because even in retrospect, obviously I can't understand why I empathize because I found that moving. But even knowing that the war was unwinnable and a disaster and based on insanity, you still like, you know, like.

And yet these guys went and they were, they went because they felt they had to serve their country and they made colossal sacrifices. And they didn't want to go to jail. Yeah. And they want to leave the country. So it's. It's heavy. It's a very heavy thing. And back in those days, it dominated everybody's, men and women.

Women who felt the terrible guilt of their boyfriends. Yeah. I've had that conversation with women my age. Of their boyfriends who bailed? Who bailed or didn't bail. I was in London with a lot of American guys who were just basically self-exiles

and they didn't know what they were going to do. They were hiding out from the war. They didn't know how they were going to get home. When did you go home? I got home at the end of two years of study and went to work for my dad. In the theater? Yeah.

You were acting for your father? I acted and directed and designed. See, that's great that you had this dad. Yeah. I had a fabulous head start. I worked for him for a year. Hands on. And then I said, no, dad, it's time that I got to go and do this myself.

Where'd you go? To New York and was out of work for two years. Ironically, I was hired to direct. I was well on my way to being a director, not an actor. In fact, Baltimore Center Stage even offered me a job as associate artistic director. Yeah. You could have had a career as a regional theater director. That's right.

That's right. And I accepted the job because I had nothing else. And then two weeks later, I got the job I always wanted. Which was? Which was a year's residency at Long Wharf Theater, back when they had a resident company. Where was that? New Haven.

Okay, so that was your dream. You were really locked into the theater world. That was my world. Regional theater was what I did. As a matter of fact, I remember my Fulbright grant application. They asked the question, what will you do with the work you study on this grant? I said, American Repertory Theater.

But the second show I did at Long Wharf, a British play with its American premiere called The Changing Room about a rugby team and its changing room. Yeah. It got a lot of national press. Yeah. It was a terrific production.

It came intact to Broadway, to 45th Street, and I had my Broadway debut in that. You know, I never thought I'd get to Broadway. Yeah. And two weeks later, two weeks after our opening night, I won a Tony Award for it. Come on. Yeah. It was like back in those days, there was no lag time.

Yeah. I'm sure that I am the actor who won a Tony after the shortest time after his debut. Probably a lot of bitter actors, a lot of angry, resentful actors. Well, it was a cast of 22 men, and they weren't entirely celebrating when I won the best supporting actor. I would imagine the entire theater community in New York was like, who the fuck is this kid? Exactly.

Yeah. That's certainly how I feel most of the time. So now you're off and running then, huh? Yeah, back then. I really haven't been seriously out of work since then. But how long was the Focus Theater? When did you realize, like, I'm going to do movies? Were you always auditioning for films and television?

No, I mean, in the 70s i that was in 1973 yeah and for about 10 years i did like 80 plays i did 12 broadway plays uh-huh and a few movies i was in all that jazz oh yes i was in you were the. Oh, yes. I was in a... You were the producer? Yeah, the director. I'm amazed you even remember. It was this little part. Hell of a movie, though. A great movie. There was a crew,

like there were two or three of the producer types, right? Yeah, exactly. In fact, Fosse even hired genuine people to be... Oh, you were the more... You were sort of like the... The arrogant shit, yes.

Right, right, right. I was sort of the embodiment of all of Fosse's rivals in the business. Right, but you played another director, correct, or was it a pretty... Yeah, a rival director. Right, rival director, I remember. And everybody speculated, who is he, who is he?

I wore sunglasses on the top of my head, which is what Hal Prince had always done. But in directing my scenes, Fosse referenced Gower head right exactly what how Prince had always done you know and but in directing my scene yeah Fosse referenced Gower champion Mike Nichols Michael Bennett and how Prince so he was sort of an embodiment of all all the people he was jealous contemptible arrogant everything every every part of your body was just sort of he was and Fossey just loved all that he was he must have been great to work with he was fantastic

yeah and so okay so you did in the 70s you did all that jazz and you did uh when did you do blowout is that oh yeah blowout well I had known uh de palma yeah when we were both students he was a student in columbia and i was at harvard and how do you know him we met through a we we actually i created a sort of summer theater workshop uh-huh uh in princeton new jersey um yeah i think the year before my uh the summer before my senior year of college with a bunch of Columbia guys. A few of us Harvard guys and a few of us Columbia guys. And Brian was a good friend of those guys. Yeah.

And he came down to see, I remember we were doing a Moliere evening, two, three Moliere one acts. And I was acting my head off. And I heard this wild, like banshee laugh from the audience. And the audiences were not big audience. They were not big crowds. We would fill the theater about 25% full. The whole enterprise was a huge flop. But I heard this screaming laugh. That was Brian De Palma. Yeah. And in many ways,

he sort of godfathered my entry into movies. He recommended me to the first movie I was ever in. Yeah. And then shortly after, he hired me for Obsession. Yeah. And then- I never saw Obsession.

You should see it. It's classic old time. I mean, De Palma's stuff. I've seen most of the movies. Have you seen Hi Mom and Greetings? I don't know. Those are his wild... Those were when he was...

Oh, wow. It's written by Paul Schrader. Yeah. Why haven't I seen it? You got to see them because they were very radical films. And De Niro was in them. Yeah. He was in Hi Mom, I think, and Greetings.

Wow, I'm so mad. But you've got to see them, because those were his... That's when he was a real renegade. Yeah? And then... I thought Blowout was... Well, I mean, then he became the master of the macabre.

He sort of embraced suspense and horror. Right. Because he always loved that. And then I did Raising Cain. Yes. I saw that. That was heavy. But Blowout was great.

Yeah, that was a great one. It was one of his really good ones. I don't know how he sees his interpretation of other movies but he clearly does that on purpose oh yeah yeah he he he it's not like he was stealing he always considered it both an homage and a kind of secret in joke he he delighted in all that and what did what about you playing, like, you know, evil fuckers? Well, Brian always, I always was curious why he thought of me as, in fact, there's this wonderful documentary of Brian. Yeah.

It's nothing more than an interview with a lot of cuts to his, and he himself said, I don't know why, I always thought John Lithgow would be a good villain. I don't know why. He was bemused by that. I think it's because he loves the idea of someone who's apparently innocent being diabolical, and I'm your man for that.

Well, you've done it a lot. Yeah. Right? Well, it's a great way of surprising people. You know, when they expect one thing, and it turns out to be another, I mean, that's almost the essence of every kind of drama. Right.

You know, surprise them. Surprise them. But luckily, because you work so much, you're not one of those people that when you do a thing like Terms of Endearment where people are like, no, he's going to be evil at some point. This is going to turn. I've seen him in the last two movies. Someone's going to get a knife in him.

But it goes the other way around. I do Third Rock from the Sun for a few years. Yeah. And I'm the last person they think will be evil. Right. I'm just this clueless doofus. And then I do Dexter, you know, where I couldn't be more evil. And a lot of the villain

parts I've played have a double identity. I love duality where there's two completely opposite sides to a character. In fact, about five or six times I've played my own identical twin. I mean, that must be a testament to your range and skill as an actor that people will do that. How many people could they really have do that effectively? Obviously, several different directors said, no, John is the guy for this. Well, I don't know. By now, I've gone in so many crazy different directions. You know, when Stephen Daldry asked me to play Winston Churchill, I was just, I was astonished.

And everybody I knew was astonished. Really? But I think Daldry had just, well, he'd just seen me do enough unlikely surprising things. He thought, what a fun idea. Of course he could do this. And you won an award for that, right? I won a few awards for that. Yeah.

An Emmy Award. Actually, Albert Finney, rest his soul, won an Emmy for playing Churchill, too. Churchill is an old man who won an Oscar. It's a good prize-winning character. He would have been very pleased, I think. I think you would, too. And you have an Oscar?

No. No. No, I've been nominated twice. And I actually presented one of the nominated films when Billy Crystal was an Oscar host. And he took his eye off the teleprompter for one second and he introduced me as a two-time Oscar winner, John Lithgow. This is the first time I've ever disabused people of that. I wonder where that came into his head or how that came in.

You've won quite a few Emmys. Yeah, six. And do you have them all out? No, I don't. To tell you the truth, they're in storage. I mean, this sounds ridiculous, but I've got a lot of these things. Yeah, and it's like there are too many of them to put on display. Sure, all the different

awards it's the midwesterner in me where do you live you live here yeah i live here and i have an apartment in new york so oh that's nice i'm a sort of bi-coastal character so you're moving through the movies though like like i remember like you're one of those guys that was sort of in a lot of things always like i feel like I grew up always seeing you somewhere. Yeah, like a bad penny. No. She keeps on showing up. But like the Twilight Zone movie, that was great.

Yes, yes. That's a great role. Fabulous. And working for George Miller. Yeah. Of Mad Max, Fury Road. He directed your episode? He directed my episode.

And it was the first time, I'd done a few movies before then, including Garp. Sure. But until then, nobody, no film director had ever asked me to do more. They'd all asked me to do less. But George, nothing was ever enough.

More! He's just, I want to see your face crack. You know, it was just great. And it was incredibly liberating. That was the first time I brought all my sort of bravura theater chops to the movies. Really? Yeah. So, like, everything you earn.

Yeah, bam. How big can I get? You wanted it, you got it. Because you are sweating and freaking out. Total freak out. Also nonstop. It was like a 20-minute heart attack. Oh, man.

It was really fun. Did you work with him again ever? Not George, no. No. No, and I loved him. In terms of endearment, like you were the sweet guy. Yeah, yeah. I worked at the bank that yeah it was about

a two or three year stretch which was i came out to l when i met my wife i came to la we got married so you left new york you left the theater the ongoing theater of the 70s yeah and came out to l la on what movie did you decide like i, I got to go to L.A.? Well, I decided because of Mary. When we got married, I moved in with her. She was a tenured professor. Out here? Yeah, at UCLA.

And I couldn't. You've been married twice? Yeah. Yeah. She's my second wife. And I just, it was just sort of a time for change in my life, I guess. I moved out and moved in with her. And bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

I did Garp, Twilight Zone, Terms of Admirance, Footloose, Buckaroo Banzai. All in the space of about two and a half years. And they were all wildly different character parts. But popular movies in different ways. Some of them were big hit movies, right? Terms and Footloose. Well, Terms, for sure. Buckaroo Banzai had kind of a cult following.

It still does, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Wherever you go, there you are? Yeah. Laugh while you can, monkey boy. Yeah, that's it.

I wish your listeners could see your laugh right now. Well, you can, monkey boy. Yeah, that's it. I wish your listeners could see your laugh right now. They know my laugh. Your smile. I'd forgotten that one. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Monkey boy. That was like a meme before the internet. That was something people were saying all of a sudden because of that guy.

Monkey boy. It was the most lunatic character ever. I loved it. 1984. That's right. It was just because I remember that being around. You know how things are around. What was your Monkey Boy line?

Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy. You get a few of those. I once went to, I did an assembly at my son's school when he was in high school. And I did my own, it was such a self-congratulatory thing to do. I gave myself a life achievement award. Oh. And I provided all my- Did they ask you to do that?

No, no, no. It was a joke. Instead of having clips, I just quoted all my great one lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had a whole bunch of them. What's some of the other ones? Well, Roberta Muldoon said, I had a great pair of hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And laugh while you can, monkey boy. And in terms of endearment, you must be from New York. You know, I gave the Harry and the Hendersons howl. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it was long predated, hello, Dixter Morgan. You know, that became a- Yes. So you did Third Rock for years.

Yeah, that was six years. But you did a lot of television here and there, a lot of the things that people do, they show up and wave and make a joke and whatever and then go away. But Third Rock was like, that's a lot, right? Yeah, we did 138 episodes and had a fantastic time. I mean, it was really a deliriously fun show. People must know you for that, right? Probably. You played H.L. Mencken? Now that you mention it, I did play H.L. Mencken. No, on Ken Burns. I'm one of his go-to voices. I've been on four or five of Ken Burns' documentaries.

You didn't do the Vietnam one, though, did you? No. That was Peter Coyote, I think. Yeah. Yeah. No, I would always do little characters, little letters being read. I was on the Roosevelt one. Voice work's fun, right?

Well, it's no different from this. We're doing voice work right now. But you get to do, no, but you know. No, it's fun. It's a lark. I loved Chris Rock's whole riff on voicing animated films at the Oscars. It's just, you know,

when I did the voice of Lord Farquaad in Shrek, I did it about four years before the movie came out. Yeah. And it was this whole new technology, Shrek, which is a very innovative film.

I would go in and lay down some, you know, Lord Farquaad and then go away for about six months and they'd come in to have me do another 15 minutes to do another little shit. I maybe dropped in three or four times over a couple of years. Right. Put it all together, I spent about 45 minutes on it. Right.

And four years later, out comes this phenomenal film. And it's my voice. I've long since forgotten ever saying these things. Yeah. You know? And it's forever now. Yeah, yeah. Like my producer, Brendan, he's got a son.

A couple years ago when his kid was six, his wife got tickets to see Peter and the Wolf at Carnegie Hall. Uh-huh. And when she told him, he was not happy because he's he's sensitive he gets worried about large places and big sounds so it's caused him anxiety and he said no i'm not going throw the tickets in the trash and she says but john lithgow is going to be the narrator and there's a long pause and he says, okay, I'll go. No, this is my, these are my people. The kids? Yes, for about like a two-year window of opportunity.

Then they grow up and think I'm an asshole. But no, but I've spent a lot of time entertaining like the three to seven-year-old set. Yeah? When did that happen was that of your own making because you've written books you've done yeah yeah it's it's a very nice thing i it mainly came you know i had a baby sister 10 years younger than me there were four of us siblings i was the third oldest and she was 10 years younger than me yeah and i was like her third parent right sarah j. And I always entertained her. Right.

And always the main go-to babysitter. Uh-huh. And then my own kids came along and I just developed songs. I taught myself the guitar just to sing, sing kids songs to my kids. And then it was classrooms and benefits for the schools and assemblies and. For their schools? their schools and then you became known to well i was a guy who did that not really until third rock from the sun yeah and i

at that point it was like somebody suggested you do something with your kids stuff yeah and i made a home v vcr cassette yeah video cassette And then I made an album with some terrific musicians and a great record producer. Of your songs. Of my songs and also old novelty standards. Yep. Cab Calloway and Betty Boop and Shirley Temple songs. Yeah.

As retooled as kids songs. Sure. With great old time jazz orchestration. And I literally called information for Carnegie Hall and dialed Carnegie Hall and told them, I have an album, I want to send it to you, and I want to give a concert with a big orchestra. Six months later, you know, I had my carnegie hall debut i performed there

three or four times i i've i've actually done kids concerts with about a dozen major u.s orchestras huh big hour-long concerts mostly my own songs and you sing them i sing them i could sing you one right now. Okay. Well, I'm not going to. I'm in. All right. Wait, no. I'll sing you one. I got two dogs, a fanny and blue. Bet you kind of wish I had two dogs too. Fanny's all white. Blue's kind of gray. They never ever fight and they never run away. They're not too smart, but they're loyal and true. There's nothing I'd trade for my fanny and blue, et cetera. I mean that. They love it. Yeah, they go nuts.

And they're very interactive concerts. I haven't actually had time to do this for about three or four years, but I used to do it a lot. Yeah. And it was always this wonderful counterpoint to entertaining adults. Right. Because kids are electric. I mean, they're an incredibly difficult audience, but if you can control them and stimulate them and then calm them down, get them to really listen and hold their attention for an entire hour.

Get them squealing with joy and then totally silent. Right. It's a fantastic feeling because I always say, you know, what an actor really wants is to achieve is suspension of disbelief. Yeah. You never get that entirely with an adult audience. Right. They always know they're watching a fiction.

Right. But kids? Yeah. They haven't figured anything out yet. They think, my God, I'm seeing the real thing. And they have no irony at all. Yeah. They just completely buy it.

They're not cynical. They buy it all. Yeah. They're excited to buy it. They're not cynical. They buy it all. Yeah. So it's just- They're excited to buy it. They're so excited and- It must feel great. It feels great. Yeah.

And then they grow up and turn their backs on me. Oh. Until they discover me in Dexter. Right. You know? Or they discover you when they're teaching their own kids stuff. That's right. That's-

No, but I mean, the most wonderful thing is to hear parents say you know their kids love my albums yeah it's a it's a wonderful or my books yeah because that stays that's evergreen man yeah you know what i mean it's like you know the those songs like even the ones that you chose to do that aren't your songs that you know them for a reason they never go away yeah and if them for a reason, they never go away. Yeah. And if you can make those things that never go away for kids, generations of them, it's an amazing thing. It was great fun also going through old Tin Pan Alley

because back in the 30s, these ridiculous Inka Dinka Doo and Heresy Dotes, they wrote these idiotic songs for commercial adult consumption, but they And Heresy Dotes. Yeah. They wrote these idiotic songs for commercial adult consumption, but they're wonderful songs for kids. I mean, when I was a kid, Danny Kaye was this huge thing. Sure. We loved, we had this album that we must have played a million times, Danny at the Palace, doing all these,

and I've done several of them on my album. Oh, you have? Yeah. Danny, he was at Song and Dance. What was his big movie, Danny King? Hans Christian Andersen. Oh, yeah, yeah. The Court Jester.

God, you mention that to anyone under 50 now, and they have to really struggle. I can picture his face. I mean, I... He's very handsome. He was younger than... I'm not old enough to know those things. When I was younger, I was very obsessed with old entertainment.

Well, vaudeville. I mean, vaudeville, it reemerges in different strains. Oh, yeah. It never goes away. It never goes away. Did you see that Stan and Ollie movie? No, I didn't. You should see it.

Is it good? It's so good. Yeah, I will. I'm so mad that it doesn't seem like a lot of people are seeing it. Well, it's because who knows about Stan and Ollie anymore? But you know what they look like. That's all we really know. Any generation that has seen those black and whites, whatever's available when you're a kid.

But maybe you're right. But the thing is that those two guys, John C. Reilly and Steve Coogan, really give them depth. I will see it. They make them people. And they're people in show business. And they're people in a difficult point in show business, in their careers.

And it's just such a sweet movie. Oh, I will watch it. I will watch it. So what's this play you're doing? Ah, that's the one I'm doing with Laurie Metcalf. It's called Hillary and Clinton. Is it in New York or here? It'll be on Broadway.

Okay. And whose play is that? It's a wonderful young writer named Lucas Nath, H-N-A-T-H. And he wrote, he's written a lot of plays, but he wrote on Broadway, Doll's House 2 a couple of years ago. And Laurie played the title role

and won the Tony Award for it. Have you worked with her before? She came and did a three-episode arc on Third Rock from the Sun. Okay. It was hilarious. And she was nominated for an Emmy for it as a guest artist. Okay. It was hilarious. And she was nominated for an Emmy for it as a guest artist.

She's intense, man. She is the greatest actress. Yeah. Getting up on stage with her, I can't wait. Yeah. She is so sharp and got such an attack.

Yeah. And so smart. Yeah. It's really good. And the play is really good. What's it about? Well, it's about Bill and Hillary at a very crucial moment in their history. It takes place the day before and the day after the New Hampshire primary in 2008 when she was running not against Trump but against Obama.

not against Trump, but against Obama. And in a sense, it's kind of like The Crown, where there are these very extremely well-known public figures that everybody's obsessed with, but nobody really knows what's inside their lives, their private lives. And it's a kind of hypothetical and speculative play, but this guy is such a tremendous writer. It's got the dramatic structure of an Ibsen play. It's a very funny play, but

it's got turns of plot that the storytelling is just great. They don't write plays like this anymore. I just love it. That's great. So to play Bill Clinton, how do you not make that a caricature? Well, it's a kind of, a deal is made with the audience almost instantly. Out comes Laurie,

just as Laurie, and says, basically, don't even, don't worry. We're not even trying to imitate these people. It's just an alternate take on them. So I'm not making the slightest effort to look like him or sound like him. You'll see. You got to see it. It's going to be just tremendous.

It's a four-character play. Who are the other two characters? I don't think I'll tell you because one of them is a big surprise. Oh, can't spoil it? No spoilers. That's right. Got it. Well, it sounds interesting, and certainly the two of you guys together, that's crazy. That's going to be something. And what's the Fox News movie?

Ah, well, I'm playing Roger Ailes. How is that, playing another monster? Well, it all depends on how you look at him. Objectively. Yes, he was a monster, but whenever I play a monster, I sort of shake hands with him. Sure, you give him some humanity. It's a terrific script by Charles Randolph, who co-wrote The Big Short. It's directed by Jay Roach he's a wonderful

director he does good comedy movies right and this cast it's me but the other major characters are the women at Fox it's really about the women's response to the culture who plays Megyn Kelly again Megyn Kelly is played by Charlize Theron oh yeah and and Nicole Kidman plays Gretchen Carlson. Margot Robbie, Allison Janney, Connie Britton, Kate McKinnon. It's the most extraordinary ensemble. Powerful. Great, great actresses.

That's a powerful bunch of women there. And it's such a smart piece. I mean, you never know. You're inside it all. Have you seen a cut? No, no. When's it out? Well, you know, it's a very, very glorified independent film. It's not a studio film. It's not slated. I don't think it's even titled yet. But it's really

going to be good, I think. It certainly felt great acting those scenes. And they're very challenging scenes. We've been obsessed with the Me Too movement and the downfall of all these harassers for the last couple of years. But I don't think I have seen it accurately portrayed. I mean, there's no way of accurately recreating what actually happened behind closed doors. Right. But exploring the other side of it. Yes. And in depth, like all of the, what's most fascinating is all the different reactions

of all the different women. Yeah. Because, you know, some people, for all sorts of complex reasons, have to either accommodate or not accommodate, defy or protest, sue or accept. And everyone in the film faces a deep moral dilemma, including Ailes himself, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah. You know, Connie Britton plays this fascinating part of his wife. Alison plays his attorney, Susan Estridge, who was a feminist and a great advocate for women and protecting women. That's complicated. It's very complex. It's a complex story. And the background, of course, is the birth of Fox News.

Roger Ailes created Fox News and his downfall has all kinds of resonance with what's happening right now. Yeah. Oh, that sounds exciting. It's all done, right? It's all shot. Yeah. They're cutting it. And Jay's very happy. Oh, that sounds exciting. It's all done, right? It's all shot. They're cutting it. And Jay's very happy. Oh, good. He sent me an email saying, wow, this is really working. Oh,

good. That's always good. That's great. I met him on a plane briefly. Yeah. So he's going to do the play. That's coming out. And what else? That's enough. I'm writing a book. Really? Yeah. About yourself? No. Oh, good. I've done that. Yeah, I've done a couple of those. No, it's a project in such infancy, I hesitate to even talk about it. Wary to talk about it. It's satirical doggerel verse on the subject of the Trump administration.

And all these astounding characters. I mean, if you just look at it, an actor looking at this list of characters, there's about 50 of them who are so unbelievably bizarre. Yeah. Comic, appalling, horrific, scary.

Yeah, the worst. The works. They are almost as if they are satirical characters. Yeah. What's doggerel verse? Well, it's doggerel verse. It's nonsense verse. Oh, okay.

But it's like Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear. Oh, so you're going to do a funny poetry. It's comic. To me, the only way I can deal with my kind of chronic low-level depression about the state of this country is to make some sort of comic comment on it. Yeah, I'm up on it. I'm up on the decline. Well, good. You're up on the decline. I like that phrase.

It's not going to last forever. I'm an optimist by nature. Oh, good. I think I am, but I don't know. I think it's just some sort of denial thing. Of course it is. But we do forget. It's almost like you can get addicted to a streaming drama, you know, created for Netflix or Amazon.

Right. I try to think of this as the streaming drama of our lives. When I think back to my young years, one of the great villains of my childhood was Richard Nixon. Sure. All through the 50s, Yellow Springs, Ohio, he was one of the major, he and Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn, those were the great boogeymen. As a result, his come down in 1973 or four- Took a while.

It took a while, but when it came, it was one of the great moments of elation in my childhood. I think I have that coming. Oh, good. I think there's a second coming. We all have that coming. Did you go, I read that you gave a commencement at Harvard and you were the first actor to do so? Yes, first and only so far. And was that a big moment or no? Oh, it was wonderful. It was fantastic.

As a matter of fact, I used my children's books as kind of the theme. I wrote a children's book for the occasion. It was a lot of fun because that year there had been a kind of outrage. Their then President Lawrence Summers had made an offhand comment about women not being suited for science. Oh, right. And it was really, it cost him his presidency. There was such an outrage. Yeah.

And that outrage was boiling all year long. So I'm convinced they invited me to give the commencement speech because I was the least offensive person they could think of. Yeah. because I was the least offensive person they could think of. And I decided to write a children's book for the occasion, to give a boilerplate commencement speech, but end it with something that I had done. My theme was be creative, be useful, be practical, be generous.

I said, okay, I'm creative. I've created a book for the occasion. Practical, it's going to be generous. And I said, okay, I'm creative. I've created a book for the occasion. Practical, it's going to be published. Useful, well, it's going to help pour oil on troubled waters here at Harvard this year. It's about a mouse, a little girl mouse named Mahalia, who happens to be brilliant at science. little girl mouse named Mahalia, who happens to be brilliant at science. And the laughter just rolled across these 20,000 people sitting outside in the sunshine. And I then recited this verse children's book called Mahalia Mouse Goes to College. And it was all about a brilliant little science student who ends up graduating from Harvard.

And I said, I dedicated it to the class of 2005, and all my proceeds went to their class gift. So that was my little homily. So you published it? It's published. It's a terrific book. And I got a standing ovation and I performed an encore

of one of my children's songs. That's great. And you stuck it to the man. He was seated right behind me. No, but it was very gentle. I was not... I did not.

You weren't going, this guy. But it's like I couldn't let the moment pass without giving some nod to the thing that had obsessed the campus all year long. And you did it from a child's perspective. Yes, right. Which made everybody process it in that way. It wasn't an intellectual thing, right? Right. Yeah, that's right. Which made everybody process it in that way. Yeah. It wasn't an intellectual thing, right? Right.

Yeah. That's great. Well, it was great talking to you, man. Oh, God. Are we done? Yeah. I think so. It's wonderful talking to you, Mark.

You do such great things with this. Oh, I appreciate it. I'm really proud to be on it. Oh, thanks. Good luck with the play. Thank you. Break a leg. You've got to come see it. I will. You've got to promise me you'll come to see it.

When I'm going to New York, I want to see a couple plays. I'll see that one. I'm going to see the Miller play. Yeah. Yeah. So Tracy's a good friend of yours, huh? We're new friends. It's weird when you're middle-aged and making friends.

Yeah. And I talk about it a lot, but we've spent time together. We've gone out and ate, and I've seen his plays. He's such a bright man. Yes, I like making him laugh. He's a good audience for me somehow. I don't know him very well, but I saw him at the Steppenwolf years ago. He's a good actor.

Yeah, he's a terrific actor. Yeah, and his plays are good. The new one down at the Mark Tabor. Yes, I heard you talking about it on the radio. Yeah, I liked it. If you're a certain type of fella, it's going to relate to a little hard. Yeah.

It's going to resonate with you in ways that are going to make you uncomfortable. Well, that's one of the things we try to do. That's what theater's for. Yeah. Great to talk to you. Okay. That was great. I love that guy. And now I will pray.

Pray. Fuck my mouth. Jesus. Fuck. You know, it's like some days. And now I will play. Play. Now I will play.

Play. Play guitar. Play. God damn it. Play. Here we go. guitar solo Thank you. Boomer lives! you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice rink on uber eats but iced tea and ice cream yes we can deliver that uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region see app for details discover the timeless

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