WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1008 - Vincent D'Onofrio

Episode Date: April 8, 2019

The last time Vincent D’Onofrio saw Marc it was at a standup show where Marc got tackled on stage by a disgruntled audience member. A lot has changed for both of them since then. You know Marc's story. But Vincent says in the decades since that night, he has improved his mental wellness and gotten his anger under control, two changes he thought would hurt his craft but wound up helping him become a better actor. Vincent also tells Marc about his first movie job being unadulterated Kubrick, why the real goal of an actor is servicing the story, and what went into creating and directing a full-on Western movie, The Kid. This episode is sponsored by Missing Link from Annapurna Pictures, OpenFit, and Capterra. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? It's Mark Maron.

I'm here. This is my podcast WTF. How's it going? Oh man, I am. I'm still in London and what a few days it's been. I haven't talked to you since what last Thursday and I recorded that on the day before. So I was just I just got here. I was hallucinating. I don't think I'm still hallucinating but when you're in a different country different side of the street different personal products different cereals different people they are different we're all people but the Brits and the tone of the city and the culture is different it does feel like a bit of a hallucination, but it's not. I'm here. I'm eating things. I'm engaging with people, with audiences. I'll tell you about it in a second. Oh, by the way, Vincent D'Onofrio is on the show today.

Always respected that guy. Love him as an actor. Seems like an intense guy. He was an intense guy. And it was great talking to him. So that's coming up when I'm teasing my own show. You'll hear that in a minute if you hang out for this. I got tour dates. So you may want to hang out for that. You might want to hang out for that. I got tour dates.

It's happening. And holy fuck, I don't think I even realized the number of dates I was going to be doing. But I'm doing them. All right. So I'm going to be doing, but I'm doing them. All right. So I'm going to read them off to you just sort of like, so you can hear if your city is mentioned, then maybe it'll inspire you to go pursue tickets. August 9th in Portland, Oregon at Revolution Hall, August 22nd in Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater, August 23rd in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater, August 24th in Houston at the Cullen Theater at Wortham Center.

September 6th in Vancouver at the Vogue again. September 7th in Seattle at the Moore Theater. September 20th in Chicago at the Vic. September 21st in Detroit at the Masonic Temple. September 22nd in Minneapolis at the Pantages. October 10th in Philadelphia at the Pantages. October 10th in Philadelphia at the Miriam Theater. October 11th in Washington, D.C. at the Kennedy Center Concert Hall. Wow, that's big. October 12th in Boston at the Schubert Theater, and I'm going to be shooting a special

there that night, so there'll be two shows there. October 18th in nashville at the james k polk theater october 19th in atlanta at the tabernacle and october 26th in san francisco at the masonic there will be a fan pre-sale for tickets this wednesday april 10th at 10 a.m to uh thursday april 11th at 10 p.m just go to the venue websites and use the password Buster. The official on-sale date for all venues is this Friday, April 12th. Except for the Kennedy Center, that's on sale April 19th. A lot of information. But come this week, you can always go to WTFpod.com slash tour for more info on all these dates and venues. And I would assume the links to the tickets.

Okay? Wow, man. That's a lot of work why didn't I realize that why where was I when when I booked these things I was just I guess on the phone maybe cooking something going uh-huh yeah okay sures good. Detroit, I haven't been there in forever. Okay, yeah, all right, sure. Houston, okay, yeah. Dallas, I don't know. I don't know, I don't feel like I got people in Dallas. Okay, yeah, all right. That's how that works.

And now looking at it all, almost as if it were a poem on this page, a lot of dates, and God knows, by Boston, by october 12th i should have a a very tight very well grooved very uh together hour and 15 minutes of material for a netflix special that's for fucking sure okay how's it going everybody all right so since I've last talked to you I've done a show in Salford which is within Manchester despite the fact that right at the beginning of the show when I said I'm glad to be in Manchester or whatever version of that I said some guy went

Salford and there was a bit of an argument but apparently here I guess not unlike other places there are kind of regional battles that are you know separated by streets perhaps but you know it added texture to the show we did a lot of riffing it was a I'd never been to Manchester I get the sense and I know this is sort of a hackneyed you know piece of information but I do believe that Manchester might be the birthplace of sad rain I I think that rain was just rain and it didn't it didn't imply much previous to appearing in Manchester but uh over time uh it it took on an emotional tone of its own so I was in the birthplace of sad rain and apparently soccer or football, as they say here, and knew nothing about it. But it seems to be woven into the culture in such a deep way that I felt like I

should know something about it, but I did not do any research. Didn't do any research on soccer or football. Did not do any research on Brexit because I found that though I was a little panic coming into this about not knowing anything about Brexit, it turns out that neither do the people here. A lot of confusion. They don't want to talk about it. No problem. I can talk about our country's slow drift to sort of evangelical authoritarianism and complete capitalistic chaos managed by a judiciary that will sink this entire operation. Just my opinion, judiciary that will sink this entire operation. Just my opinion, but, you know, good shows. I get there, I get to places, and it seems to me that, you know, if I want to go to a museum or something, I'll do it, but I was tired. I was jet-lagged, as you knew from the last time, so I got up. I tried to find a place that had healthy food. I ended up in the basement of a Buddhist

society or a Buddhist center in the middle of Manchester. And it was just this old style, strange little wooden table, hippie joint that looked like it'd been there forever. And it's very interesting about people is that the people working at the Buddhist center, which was sort of, you know, it was a paid gig. I mean, it's a, which was sort of, you know, it was a paid gig. I mean, you buy the food, but it had a sort of kind of communal health food vibe to it. And it's just interesting, the people that gravitate towards maybe Buddhism or the Buddhist center or whatever you think that might be, when you go there and you see them, you're like, okay, all right.

I think you kind of need to be here, you, you kind of need to be here. Don't you? You need to be here. It seems to me that contemporary Buddhism or whatever that is, and I'm not, I don't know much about it, but it's one of those options where, you know, the wheels have really got to come off, man. And, you know, and if Jesus was driving that train, it didn't work out. So you needed something simple.

You needed something basic. It didn't work out. So you needed something simple. You needed something basic. You needed something that was pretty much not confrontive in terms of deities. And you just took your fragile self and you found a little place and you got a little peace. And now you're serving me some quinoa and cabbage salad. And God bless.

I'm glad you're doing okay. Take care of yourself yourself i worry about you i've known you for 40 seconds so after that the day of the uh the show i decided to go get a shave because there was i just walked by a barber they're around they're around in the states you figure everybody knows how to give a nice close shave keep keep the stash, bring the soul patch back, get rid of the beard, don't need it. But this guy seemed a little tentative. Not a great experience, the tentative shave. It literally felt like he might have even said it when I said, do you do shaves? He's like, I can do it. Yes, I can do this. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, we do shaves. And he did it. He was very precise, but it was not comfortable. Usually you relax into the ritual. You trust the guy. You get nice

hot cream on your face. You get a hot towel. There's a sort of a meditation calm to it. It's another form of Buddhism, I guess. Not really, but you do surrender and you relax, but not so much this guy. He was doing it in small patches. He put little dabs of cream on and he was right up on my face, doing it very carefully to the point where I was very conscious of relaxing my face. Cause I was afraid if I tighten my face, he would cut part of my face. Um, but I was, I was, you know, I was really cheering him on in my mind. I was like, come on, buddy, you can do this. I want you to have this experience. Uh, he was so proud that I think that he didn't cut me and that we didn't fuck up my sideburns or my mustache that he didn't give me the full sort of aftershave lotion treatment.

But he was, you know, I felt like I helped him out. And that's what being a person is all about. It's like here, I'll risk my own face for you to have a new experience and get better at what you're doing. It's not the experience I wanted, but I hope it went well for you. And I think that's sort of a theme. I don't know. Then the show in Manchester was great. That Lowry Theater was beautiful. Small, about 450, packed it out, but very intimate.

And the acoustics were perfect. And I love that feeling where you have that many people, but it can still be an intimate experience. And I think everybody had a good time. I did do some press up there. There's been a shit ton of press here. I'll be honest with you, man. I don't think I've done as much press as I did on this trip in years, if ever. I did this show.

You never really know what you're walking into, but I did this show called Loose Ends. And I wasn't really paying attention when they told me I knew it was a it was several people you sit around you talk uh you know I didn't think I knew the host I and then the day of I'm like wait a minute that's the guy Clive Anderson is hosting this the guy from whose line I remember that guy and Mavis Staples Mavis fucking Staples is on the show with me. And what an honor that is. It was me, Mavis Staples, Judy Kramer, who created the Mamma Mia musical, and Anita Anand, who this book she wrote sounds amazing.

I think it's called The Patient Assassin. She's a journalist and author here. And she was great. But I'm sitting there with Mavis Staples at a table. And she's telling stories about singing for Martin Luther King, about Bob Dylan proposing to her and just to meet her and tell her that I saw her years ago at the bottom line when Pop Staples was still alive and John Hammond opened for them. She's like, oh, I remember that. And like, it's just sometimes this business is just very exciting and very, it's just a powerful moment, man.

I mean, she's amazing. But what it takes for me to get excited about a show just because I'm so sure it's going to be awkward. I mean, I've played this place before. Royal Festival Hall is a big space meant for symphonies. Yeah. And I don't always remember exactly. I know the feeling I have when I do a space that seats over 1800 like if I'm in a space that seats from 1500 to 3000 I tend to it's not that I get

nervous but it's like will the vessel hold will the vessel I am occupying hold you know by the time I get to the venue I'm like oh my god not not as bad as it used to be but once I get on stage I do the sound check I'm like okay I remember this place it's big it's a symphony space it's it is what it is and I know man I just know you know I get out there I got my opener this kid Jack Barry he's doing all right I get out there and I'm like, I'm just being loose. And I'm like, I can make this space intimate. I can pull them in. I can do it.

But it's weird, man. When you work in a space is like, there was about 1900 people in there. And I'm on a stage that has, it's wide open because a symphony should fucking be sitting up there and I'm doing what I do. But like the, the, it's hard to get on a roll, you know, I'm, I'm connecting, but it's like, I don't feel it coming back as much as I'd like it to. I know that in a bigger space, the tighter, the bit, the better it's going to be because then it can just land. And you know, you can, you know, people know where it ends. They know what the

punchline is. And sometimes I like to sort of noodle around a little bit. I like to improvise, but I have to accept that. I think I have to accept that's how I do shit. And they're digging it, you know, but I'm not feeling the connection as much as I like because the fucking room is so big and it wants a symphony in it. It doesn't want just me sitting up there on a stool in the middle of where there should be a full orchestra.

The space doesn't want it. It's fighting me. And I feel that after every bit, after every arc, there's a moment where I'm like, look, I'm just this little guy. I'm just sitting on the stage. And there's that moment where it's sort of like, you know the difference between performing and just being you. Like, I feel that. When I'm sitting up there in a symphony space between jokes, I'm like, the bottom could fall out here. I could just be a guy talking to myself on stage here in front of people. I could just feel that there was such a fine line

between getting laughs and connecting in that way and just kind of being a guy sitting on a stage in front of 1,900 people that's wide open and should have a symphony on it going, hey, I don't know. I'm just up here by myself. It's weird. I'm up here by myself. That place. That place. I'm just up here by myself. I hope. I don't know. Is there any way I can get out of here? I have to get out of here. That was just right under it. And show was great and people liked it but i it got to the point at the end i'd done about an hour and 40 minutes and i was just i just wanted to like i set the mic aside the acoustics are perfect i'm like what do you guys need we need

to connect here what are we doing and they you know i got applause breaks and it was all it was fucking fine it was great but in that moment my struggle was, I'm up here all alone. Here's this thing. I'm going to do this. Here we go. We're talking like this. Oh, look, you all like it. Oh God, I'm still by myself up here.

So I sought out at the end to just really connect. And I, you know, I, I took a couple of questions. I improvised through a few things through a few questions. It killed. It was beautiful. It was a couple questions. I improvised through a few things, through a few questions. It killed. It was beautiful. It was a real connection. And I closed on this weird thing. Some weird dude in the audience goes, why do you have witch hands?

And I'm like, witch hands? And somehow or another, I physicalized witch hands. And I cast a spell of love on the entire audience. And I threw a bad one right at him and it just got this huge laugh and I closed on what was essentially a improvisation on which hands and that was like a high point like that you know after almost two hours up there I'm like oh thank god for which hands so tonight I go to Birmingham uh England england if you if you if you haven't gotten tickets and you're hearing this i think there's a couple left um what else i want to thank the the british

audiences just tremendous uh great people and and great time and i'm very grateful that they came out and experienced that we We connected. We engaged. So now, Vincent D'Onofrio, I had to remind him that we met before and he kind of remembered meeting me. It was a fairly traumatic event. He didn't quite remember it as specifically as I did, but it was interesting to bring it up

and it was great to meet him and talk to him. The film he directed called The Kid, starring Ethan Hawke, Dane DeHaan, and Chris Pratt, is playing in select theaters. It's a Western. It's a sort of like a kind of sweet Western story. He inserted a coming-of-age tale into the, you know, the myth of Billy the Kid. He just sort of, it was added in. I don't know, that kid, Dane DeHaan, man, he's something else. Chris Pratt. I didn't even know it was Chris Pratt. Anyways, but you know, Vincent from Full Metal Jacket, from the crime show he was on, from some other, I mean, he's an intense dude from the player.

Anyway, this is me back in the garage talking to Vincent D'Onofrio. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes.

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Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. than I deserve. Yeah, you do too, but like... We all do, yeah. Do you buy, you buy them though? I buy them, yeah. But I feel like I haven't bought a guitar in many, many years. Yeah. I feel like I have

the guitars that I'm gonna have. Yeah. And that's it now. I feel that way too, but like, you know, sometimes, like I said, if I can get them, like I've got a bunch upstairs

that I've acquired over time. Like I've, like Jay Maskis gave me his signature Squire. You know, I don't play it much, but I like having it mascus gave me uh his signature squire you know i don't play it much but i like having it yeah i have a little squire you do yeah you like it yeah it's like a i don't know it's always they're both remind me of like a you know old timey yeah old timey uh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah haircut rock kind of like kind of like, you know, like old... But wait, do you live here? No, in New York.

So, you know, I know where we met. It was a bad night. Was it? For you? You don't remember. Where do you think you met me? Oh, maybe we don't. Maybe I don't remember.

I was a friend of Janine Garofalo's. Yeah. And she took me to a show. Yeah. And you performed. Okay. But was that the show where I was attacked onalo. Yeah. And she took me to a show. Yeah. And you performed. Okay. But was that the show where I was attacked on stage? Yes.

So, yeah, that's a bad night, isn't it? Yeah. I guess. I mean, I didn't realize the extent of it. Right. How much control you really had of it, though. Oh, well, it was kind of tripped out, right? So you were there.

I remember because it became sort of dreampped out right so you were there i remember because it became sort of dreamlike because you were you you were just sort of there and i'm like that's the guy's an actor you know so it was like is this real yeah the guy lunged at me yeah yeah because i was poking at him right and you know he jumped up and he tackled me and then a couple dudes got up there flanagan who owned the place and dave rath the manager they pulled him off me everyone that what was amazing is how quickly everyone dispersed in that moment. You know who else was there? The guitar player from Foreigner.

Oh, really? Yeah. He was there too. Well, the people that were close to the stage moved out of there fairly quickly. Yeah. But we had great seats for the whole fight. It was really more of a wrestle. It was like, it wasn't even, I don't think the guy was a fighter.

He just had an emotional reaction because we stood each other off. I knew, the one thing I knew as a performer was like, you know, number one, I'm the last act. And, you know, I'm certainly not going to, you know, puss out. Right. You're going to have to take the hit, you know, or whatever. Yeah. Or, you know, I'm or yeah you know i'm in front of people right and uh and i took it and then it got broken up and then everyone went

outside and that's when i saw you my shirt was ripped open a little bit and and he came around and apologized it was a weird night exciting do you think it was part of the show well i didn't know the extent of it yeah you know because janine i don't i haven't seen janine for many years but she doesn't um she doesn't talk for no reason yeah she's you know she like so i didn't really quite understand the whole deal of what was going on and i think i was probably stoned yeah and as well and that didn't help yeah and and i actually i actually do i actually thought you were funny yeah i was funny. Yeah. And that was the main thing.

Oh, good. That's the memory you took away? Yeah. Well, yeah. I was doing a joke. I was a bouncer when I was a kid. Oh, really? So that wasn't like a big shocking thing to me. Right, right.

It wasn't menacing. Right. No. Yeah. It wasn't like a crime. Right, right. It didn't seem like a crime or anything. It was just some drunken bullshit.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I was doing a joke that had suicide in it, and the guy got freaked out. crime right right it seemed like a crime it was just some drunken bullshit yeah yeah no i was i was doing a joke that had suicide in it and the guy got freaked out and then like you know and he he said something like you know don't do jokes about suicide yes and i was like why did you just lose somebody it was like a little callous but like why is he interrupting my show and like you know maybe i had it coming but it turned out the fucker comes around and he hadn't. He hadn't lost anybody, but I think someone was depressed.

He was feeling, I don't know, he popped. He wasn't like, he wasn't a guy trying to prove anything. I just like, my tone got him. Could be and could always be the most righteous moment of his life. I wonder. Yeah. I haven't heard from him. I've talked about it a couple of times. I. Yeah. I haven't heard from him. I've talked about it a couple times.

No, no. Right. But maybe he has good memories of it. Like, I stood up, and then we made amends, and I don't know. Yeah, because I remember what happened was outside, when everyone was outside, and, you know, I had walked outside,

and people were trying, and then the guy pulled up. He left, and he pulled up in a car with his friends and got back out, and there was a sort of of like, hey, man. I'm like, I'll deal with it. Big hero with 90 people behind me. I worked it out.

Where were you a bouncer? At every Studio 54 when I was very young at the back door. How old? How old were you? Like 18. You were at Studio 54? At the back door, though, not the front door with all the... Oh, the back door?

Yeah. So you saw a lot of people bolting out to vomit and pass out? Where you had to like... People were coming in from there, too, and leaving there. But yeah, it wasn't like the whole scene in the front. Yeah. But this was at the heyday? Yeah.

Like in the 70s? No. No, the second time. The second time. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then the ritz oh yeah on 11th street yeah for three and a half years really three and a half years yeah just

because you were a big boy yeah and did you have to did you get into shit yeah like yeah all the time yeah you're a fighter well i mean you know, not like, it's not like something I, you know, look for. Yeah. You don't start shit. No, absolutely. But you'll deal with it? I can deal with it pretty, I've always been able to deal with it pretty good.

And I don't, I don't mind being punched. No? No. But do you? That's like an important thing. I don't know that that's on the resume for Bouncer. You know, I mean, you should be- Well, I think you should know that going in.

You're going to take a bunch. It shouldn't be on the resume. Right. Yeah. But you usually, but you have to transcend the punch and maintain order. Yeah. I always say this, like, this is what I say. Okay.

I'm ready. Take your time. Like the other day I was on Twitter. Yeah. And somebody asked me, how do I handle the trolls so well, right? Yeah. And I said, because of this, if you can be hit multiple times in the face and the body. Yeah.

And not care about what it might be doing to your face or what it feels like and still maintain focus, then trolls are nothing. Right. That's a philosophy of life. Get punched up until you can't see straight. Yeah. And then maybe you sit down. Yeah.

And I always thought that that was one of the things. I knew that the best fighters that I knew were that type of guy. And why do you get trolled a lot? Are you doing, what are you putting stuff up? Because I'm a liberal. Oh, yeah. And you're a vocal on Twitter. And they come at you.

Yeah. Just like that weird kind of like pile on of garbage people. Yes. Garbage people pile on. Yeah. But did you grow up in New York? No. I was born in Brooklyn, New York.

Yeah. And then raised partially there. But then my parents got divorced and we moved to Florida. Well, sorry. To a small town called Hialeah, which is outside of Miami. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I went to most of my schooling there, but I spent every summer with my family in Brooklyn. Yeah. My whole life. Like it was a big family?

So it was sort of like, yeah. So I sort of, yeah, aunts and uncles and I lived in my grandfather's house. Big Italian family? Yes. Very, very, very Brooklyn Italian.

Really? Like old school? Food? Very old school. Yeah. Some of them were like extreme racists. Oh, yeah school yeah some of them were like extreme racist oh yeah but most of them were very my my grandfather had a lot of integrity and his side of his family had a whole lot of integrity he was an upholsterer from like he made his way

to new york from italy as an upholsterer oh wow and had a company and the whole deal oh yeah so like couches chairs whatever drapes everything was, drapes, everything. Was he from Italy? Yep. Wow. So you're like third generation kind of deal? Yeah. And that was on your dad's side? That was on my dad's side.

And my mom's side is from Napoli too. Both sides of the family are from Napoli. But my mom's parents went to New York, but then immediately went to Hawaii and opened the first Italian restaurant called Rocco's in Hawaii. In Honolulu? Mm-hmm. Really? That was smart.

Very smart. And they lived there their whole life? Yeah, basically my mom waitressed in his restaurant and my dad was in the Air Force stationed in Hawaii and that's how they met. Hawaii? So you have like a childhood past in Hawaii? Yeah. That's good, man.

Yeah, I went to part of my elementary school there, actually. Yeah, I think it does something to your brain to have that kind of space and that kind of quiet. I think it programs you in a good way. I think you have a Hawaiian sensibility deep down. That would be nice. My uncle used to, the scammer uncle that I have. What scam? His first thing was he used to act like, he's an Italian kid, but he had long, brown, curly hair.

So he could pass as a Hawaiian sort of, right? Pug nose and the whole bit. Yeah. And he used to get tourists to pay him to climb palm trees and get coconuts. Oh, really? Yeah. He used to make a bundle. He was like 10.

That seems like an honest dollar. It's not quite a scam. I mean, he's actually doing something. Yeah. Delivering the goods. So, okay. So, do you have siblings too? Sisters, yeah.

Oh, really? A bunch? I had three. Now I have two. Oh, sorry. it's okay but uh when did you start doing the uh like did you come with the acting thing but did you like where's anyone in show business i mean how'd you get him introduced to it well my dad was my dad used to do theater like community theater he was an actor yeah yeah and a director and uh and uh uh you know he always

belonged to a community theater in florida in florida like a little place like old people would come and watch the show exactly yeah yeah and like did they do like a children's show on the weekend sometimes well no they didn't do children's shows they would do like melodramas oh like just uh dirty work at the crossroads and stuff like that bizarre little plays that were actually called melodramas yeah okay so though it was primarily for the older people as a subscription thing and then they would do like to be really artsy they do like like you know view from the bridge right Arthur Miller you know all that yeah yeah and people will

walk out like I didn't understand it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And they would do The Rainmaker, plays like that. Yeah, and were you involved? My dad always played The Rainmaker. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Was he good?

The Burt Lancaster part, yeah. Was he good? He was good, yeah. He was okay. I mean, I don't really remember the details, but my parents were divorced, so there was a lot of women that he could pull a lot of women playing on The Rainmaker.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. So was that his drive? It was disturbing for me, but he had a great time. Are either of them around still? Yes. Folks? They're both around.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that's good. My dad's not the best of... No? Mental. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that's good. My dad's not the best of, you know, mental. Oh, really? The mental thing's not great? Yeah. What, is it like Alzheimer's or something?

No, no. You know, it would be so much easier for all of us if he was, but these. Bipolar-ish? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you got it? Yeah, sure.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I don't think I have the, I have a lot of anxiety and dread, but I don't have the up and down thing. You got the up and down thing? I have more of like the, but the thing about these days is you can get it under control. Sure.

But the spiral thing was big when I was young. Oh, really? Spiraled down. Into the darkness? Yeah. Out of nowhere? Yeah. Just wake up at the bottom of the hole?

Yeah. And then come out the other end like, you know, a newborn bunny. Yeah. You know. Excited. Heroic. And then of the hole. Yeah. And then come out the other end like a newborn bunny. Yeah. Excited. Heroic. Until the spiral starts again. Yeah. The waves.

Peaks and valleys. Yeah. But these days, in my later adulthood, it's under control. Yeah. It's great. It's under control. Relieved? Yeah.

Were you one of those people that found uh was it hard to to to give it up to give up the spirals well the minute that i the minute that i was truly convinced that it wasn't going to affect my art so to speak yeah i was totally into it yeah what what did it take to convince you? The actual going through, taking medication, going through the whole psychology thing and getting a shrink and figuring out what, you know, it takes you a long time to figure out exactly what a shrink is and how they can help you. And because there's so many, you know, different types. I used to do a bit about going to a shrink when you're older. You should basically just walk in and go, look, I know there's a lot of things we're about going to a shrink when you're older you should basically just walk in and go like look i know there's a lot of things we're not going to unfuck

right but i got some problems i think we can work yeah yeah my my thing was um look i'm really good at manipulating and good luck yeah i'm gonna work around you yeah i'm gonna dance i will figure out how to make you happy and get me more miserable by the time this is over and they're like great yeah i'll take it but you found a good one yeah for many years yeah oh good and that was so and then you just started doing that and then doing the work and you realized the craft was in place i actually exactly i actually realized that my motivation goes up is so much more than it used to be and i'm so much more detailed in my work now than i used to be and i'm not clouded over i'm not in the business for chasing women or all the wrong reasons right you know right i'm in it because i'm actually an artist and i have friends

that are artists and they're legit and i can learn from them and be inspired by them and have and have loyal relationships that last for 20 30 years and so now that i'm almost 60 it's like i have 30 years of like real art and real friends and real work yeah well that's great so you're like all you're giving up is that weird kind of like just for the moment fucking let's do it let's live on the edge yeah and then like you you know, crying to some woman for months. Yeah, exactly. In some country that you don't belong in. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. I was never, when I was at my worst, international travel frightened me. No, I was up for. Oh, really? Yeah, every country. Oh, that's great. Just for no reason?

Oh, man. I get to places back when i was like a paranoid and anxiety ridden i get to places be like where am i they don't have the right cereals you know and fuck me up but when did you like so when did you start doing it like with your dad or traveling no theater the acting no so what happened then was is that i just i got i started running lights and building sets and running sound and then. At the community theater. Yeah.

Yeah. So you got a handle on that. And then there was a big flux of Cuban entertainers and artists that came into the Miami area. Yeah. You know, from Cuba. Yeah. And a family, a couple opened a magic shop. Yeah. Near my house. Yeah. You know, from Cuba. Yeah. And a family, a couple, opened a magic shop. Yeah.

Near my house. Right. And they were like real magicians. Like they were a group. So, I had a hand kind of stuff? Well, just everything. They were like big show magicians. Oh, really?

And I started visiting this magic shop. I didn't have any money or anything. How old were you? Like nine or ten. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like anything. How old were you? Like nine or ten. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like that. Very exciting. Yeah, very exciting.

Yeah. And, you know, little did I know that later on in life it's not sexy and, you know, and you're going to have to stop doing it.

Magic? Yeah, magic is not sexy. Come on, man. Dave Gross does some joke. I don't even know how he sets it up about a magician, but I know the punchline is, yeah, that is my card. Can I go now? It's so true.

You don't even need the setup. No, it's funny. Yeah. But so the point is this, is that they brought me out of my shell they he taught me magic yeah he taught me he he gave me pamphlets for free so i could build my own tricks rather than buy them from him uh-huh because they're just metal welded together right you know yeah just i had a neighbor that was a metal worker who built another like rings and stuff rings and cans and things you know and

scarves and things like that you didn't have to buy it you can make all that shit you know fabric you know felt yeah yeah felt is like the cheapest material in the world yeah everything's made of felt in magic so it's like it's a nickel yeah yeah yeah so um then i started doing magic and i got really comfortable on stage oh and i could walk out on stage and just do anything. I didn't even think about it. And then one day, you know, I got interested in girls and I thought, you know, this is not sexy. And this ain't going to work out. And then I, so I thought, well, what can I do?

I don't want to be a thug. Yeah. Was that an option? That was an option. Yeah. Yeah. Hanging around with? That was an option. Yeah. Hanging around with the wrong guys? Yeah. Uh-huh.

You know. So I didn't want to do that because it didn't look, I would always, you know, at a very young age, I always would look at myself way beyond that age. Yeah. Like, what am I going to be like when I'm like 20? Old was like 30. Right. And it never looked good. Yeah. Like, like 30 right and it never looked good yeah like for some reason it never looked good and I thought maybe I should be an actor because I can actually see guys that

are that age and they look like they're okay yeah you know yeah they're acting yeah they're acting and so and so if I'm one of the places that you act is on stage and if I'm comfortable on stage maybe I should try to do it. So then, without anybody, I didn't do it in high school. I didn't do it, I wasn't even, like I never talked about it or anything.

Yeah. And then I moved back to New York and went to the American Stanislavski Theater Company. You moved back to Brooklyn? I moved to Brooklyn for a little while. With the family?

With the very religious and not. The Catholic racist yes yes yeah okay and then and then uh got out of there as quickly as i could and but i but i was studying the whole time with this uh company called the american stanislavski theater where'd you end up with your first place in the city down on fulton street oh yeah my sister? My sister, my best friend Steve Marshall and I, we got a one-bedroom, and then I built partitions to separate all the rooms, and we lived in there. So the American Stanislawski Institute, that's not the actor's studio. No.

It's not like, what is it like, Is the method pre-actor studio? You're very close, actually. Yeah. Very close. The first 10 years of Stanislavski is the method acting. Yeah. And then his actors, to make, I'm being very short story. Sure, it's all right.

But, yeah, because it's not very interesting. No, it is. The Stanislavski felt that his actors were becoming too indulgent self-indulgent yeah and um he changed system he he changed the technique and then it was called from then on it was called the stanislavski system of acting which is a whole different deal then really but the method is the first 10 years of stanislavski like i never knew this and i've talked to a lot of you guys you you actor fellas. Yeah, that's the truth.

Because, like, you know, usually, you know, you get the Meisner people, you got the actors. Which is all good. All that stuff is good. You know, but, like, I didn't realize that Stanislavski realized these self-centered monsters. Yeah. I have to reel them in. They're monsters, yeah. The monsters that he thought they were are, to me, the best actors out there.

Like who? Like Monty Clift. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. Who else? And many, many, many other actors from actor studio. From that generation?

Yeah. Yeah, right? They were so ahead of their time. So when you get to the, what is it called, the Stanislavski Institute? The American Stanislavski Theater Company. So you're like 18, 19? Yeah, 19, and I'm doing plays with them.

I'm doing classics with Sonia Moore, who ran the school, who was actually a student. She was 90 years old when she was teaching. She was actually a student of Stanislavski's and wrote all the books about Stanislavski. I don't know, when did Stanislavski die? I mean, when was his death? Oh, I don't know the year. Stanislavski die? I mean, what was his life? Oh, I don't know the year. But like it was before movies or what? No, no.

Oh, yeah? He was around that long? Yeah, you can still go visit his study and stuff in Russia. Yeah. And you teach at that same place now? No. So I then, after that, I did a tour with them and I acted and learned the Stanislavski system of acting. I still, because of all my reading, wanted to learn method acting.

And so finally, a teacher from Actor Studio took me under her wing and taught me for six years how to be a method actor. Her name is Sharon Chatton. And she was of the actor studio I'm a lifetime member now and of the actor studio yeah and um I also teach at the Strasburg Institute in New York where we teach NYU students and which one which what do you teach which method I teach the method you teach the method not the stanislavski system yeah but i do i do talk i do because i use it in my own work i use both yeah consciously consciously use everything in my own work yeah but it's not like one of those things like because like i talk to actors i try to isolate things i try to basically get myself a an acting education because i'm doing a little

acting now and uh you know like i've talked to people about it and a lot of times it doing a little acting now. And, you know, like I've talked to people about it and a lot of times it's a little vague in terms of like, well, you do that, you take some of this, you take some of that and you mash it together. But the way you're talking, there are tools you apply every time. There are tools that I apply every time. Consciously.

Consciously. Huh. And they would be very helpful for you. What are they? Especially for you. Okay. Are you going to tell me? Well, I'm not going to make the podcast about that.

No, I'm not going to make it about that. A couple of pointers. Yes, I can tell you. And then we're going to talk. That you speak not from your head, but from your stomach and your heart only. You never speak from your head. Oh. So anything that's going on in your nervous system yeah

right now this second yeah whatever you're feeling right try and speak words only through that and however it comes out yeah let the words just fall out of your mouth and however it comes out i feel like i'd be crying a lot well but but that you you'll cry until you don't cry anymore and then and then you'll be fine we're talking 55 years tears dude that's okay I taught last night until 1 o'clock in the morning in New York here Oh my teacher my mentor Sharon Chattin who I was telling you about she now teaches here uh-huh and so when I'm in town, I take over. I've taught three classes since I've been here for the last week.

And were they four-hour jam sessions? One is the Saturday, one is three hours, and the rest just go on until everybody dies. Yeah? Yeah. Everyone dies from crying and feeling? Yeah, from being in pain. Yeah, from being self-indulgent. But when you apply it to like a role, here's my big question, honestly speaking,

just from like being on the job. Yeah. When you're in character, do you have consciousness of yourself? Of course. Okay. I don't drink like, I'm not Daniel Day-Lewis.

Everybody has their thing that they do. Right. I'm not sure what he does. I only met him once very briefly. I'm not sure what he does i only met him once very briefly i'm not sure what he does if that's method acting or whatever but whatever he does it works and it's great it seems like a lot of work it seems like a lot of work did you meet him as somebody did you meet lincoln no no no i think i met i think i met him yeah because we came up at exactly the same time and so um but and but there are other actors out there too that do like, there are British actors that do a version of, I would say, is the Stanislavski system.

Yeah. And the method combined. Now, the system is different how? Just out of curiosity. The system is more physical. Okay. And it requires a lot of inner monologue. Stuff that's actually written out. That you're saying under dialogue or while somebody else is speaking.

Like those... So that you're thinking all the time when the camera's rolling. About what you're acting. Like the feelings or the motivations behind it. And triggers and things that don't necessarily have anything to do with the story. Interesting. But help tell the story because it's the right emotion. Right. And do you find that you, is it possible to be completely detached from the performance

and still do a good performance? Yes. I guess that's the craft. Yeah. I mean, you got to show up for work no matter what. Yeah. I guess that's the craft. Yeah.

I mean, you got to show up for work no matter what. Yeah. I mean, the thing about trying to explain how you work on a set is I only know my version of it. You would have to ask somebody who's worked with me what it looks like to them. I have no idea. To me, it just looks like a struggle to do the part. Right. And that struggle becomes my performance. Right.

That's all it is. Right. Yeah. And that struggle becomes my performance. Right. That's all it is. Right. Yeah.

So when you're doing plays in New York, are you doing like the small ones? Like everything you can kind of deal? What, back then? Yeah. Back then? Yeah, everything I can, yeah. Yeah. And that's how you sort of- I ended up on Broadway.

In what? In a play called Open Admissions, which ran for a few months and then closed. And that was my first like real paying job where I actually had to show up and get a check and everything. Yeah. Who was in it with you? A guy named Calvin Levels. It was about street kids going to college.

Didn't run very long. Yeah. But it was a good experience because I didn't have an agent at the time. And what happened was is I, you know, there's that back in the day there was, you know, there was this paper called Backstage. Yeah. Yeah.

And so you got, that's where you got your auditions from. Sure. And so I saw it. And so I put on a whole facade that, because I was from Brooklyn, I wasn't born in Brooklyn, but I went into the audition with a Brooklyn accent and lied my way through the whole thing. And I got the part. Yeah. And they cast me because they thought I, and I got the part. Yeah. And they cast me because they thought I was exactly like the part. Yeah.

And you still have a little Brooklyn accent. A little bit, yeah. It comes out, right? A little bit, yeah. So you got the part because they believed you. They totally, totally believed me. And you knew you were just like applying your craft. Yes.

And it was the first experience that I got paid for actually doing something that I felt like I was in control of, that I invented, and it was helping tell a story correctly. And that ultimately is the job, right? Yeah, it's ultimately the job. It's about the story. To service the story. Yeah.

Yeah, I got to realize that. That's what most people say yeah it's not just about you no well i mean i i can imagine it's a difficult thing because of your stand-up that if that's where your root of entertainment comes from well that that's about self-consciousness but a lot of times i'm sort of seen for seen and sometimes it's hard for me to even you know assess the whole arc of a piece you know what i mean sure like you're kind of working like well what do i do what am i doing in this scene so then to sort of like you know really integrate the the full arc of the show or the movie or the show you know play or whatever you know i don't

really know how to manage that to you know knowing the end and what i'm you know moving towards well you probably don't read it enough for one yeah i can imagine that you don't read it the whole thing the script yeah you got to read the whole thing enough and not just your part correct right yeah i have a feeling that you're going to be like that and i think i'm right and so you have to read it over and over and over again until you realize it. You realize the whole composition of the story. Yeah. And it's something that you actually have to sit down and think about.

Yeah. And not pretend like you know it or not have all these wonderful ideas and choices. Let those, have them come in and take over your attention. Yeah. And then just rely on that and hope you get through it. Right. That's not. That's only half of it. That's only maybe even less.

Not to say that you can't get away with a great scene that way, because you can. Sure. Yeah. But it would help, I think, so you integrate the story somehow by... Sure. To think about it as an arc is a kind of good way to explain it, except that it's not really the way you should think about it.

You should think about it as like a painting, like the composition of a painting. You need to know the composition of the story, the structure of the story. And you need to know where you help tell the story. Interesting. And how you do. Yeah. Not just like, I'm the cranky guy. Right.

Yeah. Okay. That's called servicing the story. Okay. And that's do. Yeah. Not just like, I'm the cranky guy. Right. Yeah. Okay. That's called servicing the story. Okay. And that's what our job is. And that also keeps you grounded and real. Right. Because you know, there's a context.

Because it's not da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Right, right. And it's not open-ended. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is a thing. Yeah. There's no hook that's going to come in and grab you out and take you away.

And then it's over. So how long do you kick around before you get the movie parts? Six years, six or so years. It all happened while I was still studying and bouncing in clubs. And then a friend of mine walked by. Where was I then? In your 20s? Yeah, I was 22 or 23

and I was working at the front door of the Hard Rock Cafe in New York. Mm-hmm. And my buddy, Matthew Medin, who I knew from auditions

and school. How's he doing? He's awesome. Good. Yeah, he's a great guy. And him and his wife were passing by

and they saw me at the front door and we talked and he said, I'm off doing this thing with Stanley Kubrick. And I'm like, wow, I guess, you know, there's, you said, you know, there's another part that they haven't cast yet. Yeah. And I don't know what it is because he doesn't let us see it, but you should go up for it. And he gave me the address to send a tape to.

So my friend and I, Steve, we went to, I was doing a play at the time. And we went to a stoop on 10th Avenue and 24th Street. And we rented one of these cameras. You know, the cameras were like huge back then. Yeah. And had a deck. Yeah. Oh, right.

The video cameras. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, the size bigger than your computer. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And so we rented all that. And I put on beta like three or four takes. I just did three, four monologues in a row. And the tape was huge. What were the monologues? From the play that I was doing, yeah. Oh, okay. And then I sent it to Stanley Kubrick.

Wow. Yeah. And then how? I got the part. Yeah? Just on that one tape? He called me. Yeah. And he said, okay, I'm going to send Yeah? Yeah. Just on that one tape? He called me. Yeah.

And he said, okay, I'm going to send you some words, and I want you to put it on tape. And I'm like, well, you know, it costs a lot of money to rent these cameras and stuff. Like, I'll send you some money, too. So they, you know, much like you and the guitars. Exactly. Thanks, Stanley. Maybe you could buy me the camera. It'd be a lot easier if you just bought me the camera.

Because usually this doesn't work at all. Yeah, yeah exactly i'm getting good at this yeah um and so i sent him he just sent me words without punctuation or anything and just said do it do just show it do it do it and i and i did it and um he said okay we're gonna bring you out wow yeah so the words were just what were they pieces of the monologue? They were pieces and fragments of things that sort of ended up in the movie and then most didn't. And how much of the character did you put in place? You had no conception of what you were auditioning for. So what were you putting out there? I sussed out that he was a weak-minded individual.

was a weak-minded individual and um he and and and he told me um without in with no detail and in a kind of roundabout way it was like a puzzle i had to put together with what he was saying to me but he said that the guy is weak-minded he is um he is oh he has to be overweight you have to you're gonna have to put on weight and and um. And he's struggling because it's an environment that he really shouldn't be in. Yeah. Just hearing that makes me. The Marine Corps, right? It's horrible. The role was so painful.

Yeah. The snapping of poor Leonard. Yeah. Yeah. And so by the time I sent him, was ready ready to do the second take and he had sent me the information and stuff knowing that he was yeah giving me that information i put on probably like five or six pounds you know and i did it without my shirt on so i could show him that i gained a little weight yeah and uh did it did another one on the same stoop same thing yeah

and then that's when that's when he hired me and then I went out there and he said, before you come out here, you know that you have to gain a bunch of weight. You have to probably gain like 20 or 30 pounds. Oh my God. And I'm like, okay. And so, and De Niro had already had done it

for Raging Bull. Yeah. And so I said, well, I can do that. De Niro can do it. I can do it. Yeah, for sure. And so I went out there

and I gained the pounds but then I just looked like I could kick everybody's ass. And I also had to learn how to march and do monkey patrol with the rifles and all that. So the weight went up to 70-something pounds before I looked like weak. Yeah.

And was that fun or horrible? No, it was not fun. To eat all that? Just terrible? It was not fun. It's much more fun now yeah but like but like what'd you have to like two months to put on fucking 50 pounds i had several months i had oh my god about six months just eating pasta and shit and carbs and you know half a loaf of bread

for breakfast oh and you're just feeling it fill out yeah and then you know you're not you're you know your romantic life goes to shit like everything goes to shit people look at you differently you don't get you know it serves the character people think you're stupid yeah you know it's really unbelievable what the judgment people have of fat people yeah and working with kubrick was it like was it amazing it was amazing yeah yeah being out there with all that stuff because that movie like even like when okay when you talk about story like you know what was the story yeah no i know you know what i mean yeah i mean with that role i have to assume you're like well this guy's story is what i gotta focus on right there's like two sections and that's that this guy's story and and and matthew joker's matthew uh joker matthew's

character is is the point of view of that guy's story and and so yeah it was about yeah him him transcending into uh the the marine corps training backfired and just instead of making a a lean green fighting machine they just made a fighting machine yeah a monster yeah and uh was it easier to like it must have been good to have your friend there like to work with him yeah like it must have been like because that's what was that like your that was your first big movie right my first movie yeah and it was just i can't and you were shooting it out overseas yeah i was there for 13 months. 13 months.

Yeah. And what are your recollections of Kubrick? What impressed you? What do you take away as a director now that you're directing? I mean, what did you see him do? It's like you can't, like once you've worked with him, it's difficult to move a camera. Um, and unless it's, unless it's helping tell the story again. Yeah.

Like just, it's not just the moving moves, not, you don't move the camera for the sake of moving it. It's hard. It's, it's almost like it's embarrassing. He like makes you feel that way.

Like he, he puts this feeling of cinema and acting in cinema, this feeling of it in you where, look, don't be pathetic. Don't be a dick. Just do it right. It's all you have to do. Don't showboat.

Just fucking do it. It's like that. He makes you feel bad about even having the notion of showboating a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And he knows when you're doing it. So anytime I would see the scene, and I would think, oh, wouldn't it be cool if like we,

and I was like, I don't want to do that. It's kind of stupid. Yeah. It's pretentious. Right. So the camera only moves to help tell the story. That's what I remember mostly, and it's kind of built in me.

I didn't even know this until recently that it was. I know that my acting is very much, my film acting is very much because of the way that he directed me. Yeah. And did he help you construct the character? No. No. He doesn't talk about story, doesn't talk about character,

doesn't talk about anything. He just tells you to stand over there? No, he just says, what are you going to do? Yeah. And then you do it yeah and then you do it and then you do it again and he said you guys have to do it faster than that or better than that and it's like um can you think of anything more interesting than that to do he'll say things like that and uh so matthew and i would go away and we'd come back with a scene and he'd go okay

i'm going to put a camera here put a camera here instead of going over there walk over there because that's where the light's going to come from and we'll shoot. Wow. Yeah. Now, do you still find this many years later that that's what people know you from? Yeah, a lot of people know me from that, yeah. And then the other people from the-

Especially Marines. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Do they love that movie? Yeah. Because I think they show it in the marine corps really yeah as what as an example as like a bell warning bell i think no that it's it's um it's the one thing that that lifers you know military lifers and

law enforcement lifers it's it's a a movie that's very big with them. Because they see it as something that, as a cautionary tale, but also an example of the discipline necessary to do the job. Exactly. Because they always say to me that it's the most real version of Paris Island

that they've ever seen. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And that guy just passed away right there Lee yeah yeah he was something

he was a trip so that starts the whole role for you like the role of I haven't stopped working since I know it's crazy how many like when I look at how many movies you've done

do you just like how do you decide what to do I just do it you do well I mean it's like if it's something that I haven't done before I'll do it you know but like there was some like do you decide what to do? I just do it. You do? Well, I mean, it's like if it's something that I haven't done before, I'll do it. But there was some like, do you find like Mystic Pizza, that broke.

Who was in that? Was that Julia Roberts? Julia Roberts, Lily Taylor. It was a big movie for that generation, for your generation of people, and you were part of that cast. Yeah. Now, at that time, in the sense of your career, did you have a thing you wanted? Did you want to be a movie star?

Did you want to have the track? Well, I knew that they were making a lot of those Brat Pack films. Yeah. And they were cool, I guess. Yeah. But that's not what I wanted to do at the time. Yeah. And I think about that often, actually.

I think that I might have missed out on having some fun. Yeah. Because you were serious? Because I was too serious. Do you look at that through the lens of maybe your mental issues at this point? It could have been. I think it was this kind of feeling of kind of feeling of i i have to be this other kind of person i can't be that kind of person the romanticization of the troubled artist

yeah uh-huh yeah and so i was uh so so that mystic pizza was like a big decision for me because i i thought okay if i'm gonna do this yeah i'm gonna have to figure out a way to incorporate the way i approach a character and how what i think of acting into this little romantic comedy which i just heard the literally i just heard the the phrase rom-com yeah yeah i just heard it i've never heard of that before i one of the students one of the people in class said it last night and i said what's a rom-com i mean they actually told me i have no idea what a rom-com was just an abbreviation yeah just but i'm not big on um well i think that more rom-coms no i get it but i think but i think it's also apparent that you know because your your presence and your talent is so specifically yours and you bring a

lot to a lot of emotional and psychological life to like even the most you know mundane parts yeah that like that i i imagine at some level that might have been a hindrance yeah that like you know that you were sort of like well you're going to do independent movies because you that's how you're that's that's what you're cut from that you know you're hired to be like you know that guy yeah yourself they they're not gonna you what you're cut from. That you're hired to be that guy. Yeah. Yourself. You're not the lighthearted goofball.

No. And it's not going to happen. No. And we tried. I've tried. Yeah. And had really good time. Like which movie?

Like Harold Ramis brought me in to do Stuart Smalley. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Frankens movie? Yeah, Frankens film. Yeah, I played his brother in that. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the two of them taught me some stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Harold was like an amazing guy. I forgot you were in it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so that was like way, way far from anything I'd ever done. Like way, way far from anything I'd ever done.

Like way, way far. And I think Harold just enjoyed the fact that I was like a Martian on his set. But I listened to everything they told me. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you've played killers. You've played cops. You've played, you know, I mean, what do you think it is, when you have to do something lighthearted or something simple or something that the story is really about just being funny, I mean, it must feel incredibly limiting on some level. Yeah. It doesn't feel limiting.

It feels foreign. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but feel limiting. It feels foreign. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but not limiting. I mean, I understand the idea of, I riff myself. I just don't riff in funny ways. I riff in other ways. I like the idea of experiments, and I like the idea of being spontaneous. I like the idea of timing and how to make things land. Yeah.

I like all that that all that stuff really interests me a lot yeah well i mean the two records that i listened to i had one on vinyl i went looking for it they could have a lot of vinyl and i had i had gotten it at some point but i couldn't find it yesterday the spoken word records the uh the uh swim bonehead slim bonehead volt stuff yeah yeah yeah is that like is that what you mean by riffing is sort of moving through words and movement

subconsciously and with some music? Yeah. Kind of the beatnik tradition? Yeah, well the words come first. Yeah. And then the music

is composed by Dana Lynn afterwards. Yeah, she seems like sort of a genius. She is a genius, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of amazing the musical geniuses. Yeah, she's unbelievable.

I mean, Dana's, you know, she plays Name the Instrument musical geniuses yes she's unbelievable i mean dana's uh you know she plays name the instrument yeah and she's a composer you know she's like the real deal is she like a savant music kind of like she just can play anything and just has it pretty much she writes she writes and composes music um in such a an enormous amount of it especially because i'm delivering her stuff constantly because I write these things, there's a stream of consciousness. I just wrote one about a frog the other day

and it's like she's already written, composed something. You just send them over? I do. What do you think? I don't even say what do you think. She just sends something back to me because she says I'm pissing myself laughing.

It's probably fun for her. Yeah. But it does seem like with The Player, which is another of my, I love that movie, you got to work with Altman, but also with the Abby Hoffman movie, which you did with Janine. I mean, these characters are sort of like raging characters. Yeah. And do you find that, how is your anger situation? Yeah, and do you find that, how is your anger situation?

My anger situation in the last 10 years is really, really, I don't think I'm angry anymore. It goes away, right? It's something about age, too. Yeah. I don't think I'm angry anymore. It becomes like this weird phantom limb. Like, you know, you still have the trigger reactions. You're like, God damn it. And you're like, I don't need to.

I actually embarrass myself of how sweet I actually am right now. Yeah. I actually find it embarrassing sometimes. Really? Yeah. I find it like, oh, fuck. I sound like such a sweetie pie guy, you know. But I actually am like, it's my first thought these days is to be sweet rather than to be provocative.

Well, that's funny because you're disappointing your former self, which still resides inside of you. Yeah. And the struggle is, it's like, just shut up. Just shut up. I'm being nice now. Yeah. Yeah.

And then it happens naturally eventually. Yeah. Or the old side of me is still there and speaks up every once in a while like, why are you acting like such a dick? You know what I mean? You're such a dick. This is not you but when you're being nice yeah when i'm being nice this is not you why would you say that that's not you come on being civilized yeah yeah being nice since when yeah you have to do it on purpose yeah. You were out to kill us. No, I think I was at my worst when I was doing Law and Order. Really?

In terms of that was the end of the anger? Those were the death throes of- Well, the anger ended by that. I think that there was people on that show, not actors, but people who ran that show that taught me the extent, the end of my anger. Like, I took it all the way. At them? At them, yeah.

Oh, so you were a problem. Well, according to them. How did that manifest itself? What were the issues? We were exhausted. We were exhausted. We were exhausted. And I had this- You churned those out.

I mean, you did like 150 of the fucking things. Yeah. And we worked 18 hours a day. Yeah. Every day. With Saturday off. Sorry, with Sunday off. Because you work Friday, you work until the morning.

And you're shooting for three months, four months? Ten months. It's 22 episodes a year. And it's formulaic to a degree. To completely a degree, like the degree of formulaic. Like the number one degree. So you're like in hell. You're like in hell, yeah.

No, not the whole time. The whole time, the first few years is you get to develop this character that nobody's ever seen before. Yeah. And that's fun. Yeah. And then all this other shit happens and they start writing to the stuff that you've invented. And suddenly it's not that interesting anymore because they're writing to it and their writing doesn't feel as good as inventing it. Right, right right right so there so

but then then the fifth year kicks in and then the sixth year and they you know and you can't get out my god and you're so you're happy to be out and it's your own fault yeah for being there yeah yeah but i mean a job's a job a job is a job coverage you got kids you know what you're gonna do yeah you know you're grown up now so that because working with kubrick and working Yeah, but I mean, a job's a job. A job is a job, yeah. You got kids. What are you going to do? Yeah, exactly. You're a grown-up now. So that, because working with Kubrick and working with Altman are big deals, I would imagine. And Ramis. I mean, I'm not going to belittle anybody, but obviously as a film head that, you know,

for me, like the player, a lot of people think he's different than his other movies. I love that movie. Yeah, me too. And how did he work? What did you learn from him? He was totally open. He loved actors. Yeah. He loved actors coming up with ideas. love that movie yeah me too and uh how did he work yeah what'd you learn from him he was a totally open he loved actors yeah he loved actors coming up with ideas he was a very honest director like if you came up with something like the whole thing about my character dying in the water

yeah like drowning in like this much water yeah like that was something that i came up with and on the night we were all worried whether it was going to work a lot including myself yeah and then once we saw that it worked yeah he's like that will never be your idea again it just became his it just became his idea and i loved that i was like you got it dude whatever you say you know all it was totally open you know he'd walk around with half a joint in his pocket he he would just most of the scenes were shot on a on a baby jib which is like a small little weighted crane with the camera on one side weights on the other and they would put it on the track you'd have like five guys uh because back then it was cable yeah everywhere yeah you had five guys reeling up cable and the actors could go anywhere they want they could walk over the track do anything and all you see these guys with

cable running back and forth keeping the cable out of the shot. And you just did it. So there's a naturalism to it. Because that seemed like a pretty tightly scripted movie for some of his more lyrical things compared to it. But he still employed all that stuff. And he did give Fred Ward

that amazing tracking shot at the beginning. It took 10 minutes. So I watched the whole movie. Now, The Kid, is this the first feature you directed? That amazing tracking shot at the beginning. Yeah. It took 10 minutes. Yeah. So I watched the whole movie. Now, The Kid, is this the first feature you directed? The first real feature. I've done a couple of experiments. I shot a film in my backyard in upstate New York, a musical horror.

Yeah? Yeah. And we shot it in like five days. Everybody sings and everybody dies. Yeah? Yeah. Does it have a cult following? I guess so. Yeah yeah it's pretty weird the music is awesome but uh why i guess my question is you know outside the fact they were just in the magnificent seven you know what is it about the

western that that made you want to make a western just because they're cool movies you know i i've always liked the good ones and always thought that i wanted to make one and i wrote one a long time ago that got kind of caught up in in lawyer stuff and and is now just not be not able to be made and so and so i and then i started to start to think about coming of age stories and and then i one night i just said you know i got a i just thought of a great idea to put a kid a fictional character in between the the factual character you know the the um in the story of pat garrett and billy the kid so that story tracks historically yes that that and and so you took that story you know the sort of mythologizing ability kid, the reality ability kid, this weird relationship between Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid.

Pat Garrett played by Ethan Hawke. And you thought, like, well, I'm going to stick a kid in there somehow to have a rites of passage movie. Exactly. And learn from two different men. Yeah. Huh. And you came up with the story? Yes.

And I found a writer that I thought that was the right guy to write it, this guy Andrew Lanham, and him and I get along fantastically. And so he came, I was shooting The Judge at the time with Downey's, and he came to Boston and stayed in the hotel that I was in, and he would write, and then he would deliver pages, and then we'd go in the room, and we'd write out structure and write out the whole thing. Oh, wow. Yeah. But, I mean, Andrew wrote the screen screenplay but the story is yeah it's mine yeah

so it was i couldn't have done as good a job as andrew did but was that the first time you were involved in that process yeah in writing it outside no i had done it with friends for the the uh the thing i did in my backyard upstate but but but like we had we i knew what it was like to bounce stuff off of people. And what were the challenges? So you got a little money here. This isn't a backyard event. You got a crew.

You have 20 days to shoot a full-out Western with stagecoaches and gunfights. 20 days. And major dramatic scenes. Well, you got some power actors in there. Yeah, you would think that it would be- No, I thought- Fall out of bed and just do it, but-

No, no, I knew it. No, I know. But you got some beautiful performances out of people. Yeah, man, because they're great. They're great actors. Yeah, and you and Ethan are friends for years? Mm-hmm. You've done other work together?

Yes, and that kid, he seems to be some sort of wizard or natural. He's a natural, dane dahan he's the first yeah yeah dane is amazing yeah yeah i mean do you like when you're working with a guy like that do you relate i mean totally he knows you know we both know what we're doing we're peers and there's no secrets you know it's like we we you know as far as i'm concerned i just respect the hell out of him you know what i mean it's like he he i can see moment to moment his performance i can see where when it's coming when it's not i can see the whole thing and i just respect the hell out of it and i can walk up to him in the middle of a take or say something to him in the middle of a take or after

take say just whisper a couple things in his ear and then he'll bring this whole other thing you know yeah um these guys are uh amazing what they do well i didn't even know it was chris pratt yeah i mean like half the movie chris was doing another show at the time and he came in for five days you know yeah but like it was like he went to like that that sort of eternal dark place of completely morally corrupt characters. Yeah. There's some people that can tap into that. Yeah. And he did it, and I was sort of like,

well, good job. Yeah, good job. Yeah. And Ethan's very controlled, but solid. But Ethan had to play back Pat Garrett. He had to do it. I kind of used our friendship because there was nobody

in my mind I've always want he knew that I've always wanted him to play Pat Garrett yeah because I actually think he is like um the spirit of Chris Christopherson like I you know I really think that it's like Ethan has that kind of quality in real life yeah I've talked to him yeah he told me like as an actor he told me one of the greatest things because i've watched him differently now because he said when he was um and he's also like a very intellectually curious guy he likes to engage and do stuff yeah art totally yeah yeah but he said that when he was when he got the role in training day like he knew that his obstacle was going to be not to be eaten alive by Denzel.

So he watched Denzel movies like football players watch, you know, training films of the other team. Yeah. So he could figure out a way to not, you know, to hold his own with that guy. Yeah. So now when I watch him in scenes, like I'm wondering, you know, not that he's going to overact, but, you know, like how he's going to step up. Like even in the shootout in your movie, I knew there was a moment there where like it looked like, well, And not that he's going to overact, but how he's going to step up.

Even in the shootout in your movie, I knew there was a moment there where it looked like, well, Chris Pratt's going to eat his lunch. Yeah. And then he just fills up somehow. Oh, my God, yes. Yes. You know what I mean? piece, just one piece of good dialogue, it will spawn pages and pages of dialogue. He appreciates

words so much, Ethan, that you just have to give him, if you can put together somehow two sentences of really good words, he's inspired for weeks. That's great. Well, I think you did a beautiful job. I got to run you out of here because you got to do a phoner. That's great. Well, I mean, I think you did a beautiful job. Thanks, Steve. And I got to run you out of here because you got to do a phoner.

Oh, okay. But you feel good? I feel good. It's great talking to you. It was great to finally talk to you. All right, man. Yeah. There you go.

That was nice. He's intenso, right? The Kid, his new movie, Vincent's new movie, starring Ethan Hawke, Dane DeHaan, and Chris Pratt, is playing in select theaters. Also, look for all those tour dates.

A lot of tour dates added. I've got to be coming close to you. WTFpod.com slash tour. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.