WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1012 - Brené Brown

Episode Date: April 22, 2019

Brené Brown’s degree in social work and her research into conditions like empathy and vulnerability led to one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time, millions of readers of her books, and celebrity boosters like Oprah Winfrey. But it was her academic work on shame that started it all and is the aspect of her work that resonated strongly with Marc. Brené talks with Marc about the evolution of her work, how it’s reflected in social and cultural changes, what her research told her about hope, and what is the biggest challenge of adult life. They also discuss her new Netflix special, The Call to Courage. This episode is sponsored by Ramy on Hulu and Capterra. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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ears what the fuckadelics what's happening it's me mark maron uh this is my podcast wtf welcome to it this is a pretty important day i'm talking to brene brown today and uh that's pretty exciting to me brene brown is a social work researcher a social work researcher she's an academic but yeah i don't i didn't know much about her she she was she is a research professor at the university of houston and uh you know she is uh the chair where i think at the graduate college of social work but i didn't know much about her a few years ago i saw a ted talk and i i think a lot of you have seen it it was called the power of vulnerability and i just watched i watched a follow-up to that called listening to shame but for some reason a few years ago i watched the power of vulnerability and it just fucking blew me away uh talking about the

connections between vulnerability and courage and you know what we perceive as weakness and how we move through the world with a sense of uh wholeheartedness and you know i know it sounds like some self-help jargon and and and perhaps you can frame it that way but there was something about the way she laid it down that this is a problem can you hear that motorcycle that's the guy across the street you know who's got several old cars and the motorcycle i don't know if you heard it but i'm in this location this temporary studio probably for a few months while they fix the garage and i'm noticing that the sound coming up off the street is a little challenging i know some of you are tired of me talking about sound and you can't hear it

because once the file is compressed, but I'm living it, I'm living it. But Brene Brown, I, you know, it's so moved me. I did everything I could to get in touch with her back then. And I did get in touch with her. I emailed her somehow. I don't even know how I got her email. I asked her to be on the show. I was in Houston and I remember scrambling to figure out how do I get hold of brené brown i got to talk to her about this vulnerability thing because you know i'm locked in a cage of self and i want out and she seems to have the keys it didn't pan out we exchanged emails once and it just didn't pan out and it drifted away from me and then now she's

got this netflix special out that is basically an extension of her talking about this stuff bernie brown the call to courage so i got a link to that and you can watch it now it's already out and still like i i found it very provocative and thought and i'm not really a self-help guy, and I don't know, you know, we talk a little bit about the nature of that and if it is self-help, but I was very compelled by her, you know, founding most of her ideas in facts, in research, because that's the way she is. But for some reason, it just resonated with me. And I find her to be very impressive. And it was very much a tricky interview for me because I am a little skeptical of broad-based self-help in terms of, you know, I know you can watch something and find it inspirational, but how do you apply this stuff to your life? It was one of these interviews that I was very excited to do and i wanted to handle it properly but i wanted to really engage and have a conversation with her about the stuff

that she knows about and also you know my own personal problems but she's not a therapist but anyway i'm tired i just got back from San Diego. Oh, man. No matter what anybody says or thinks about stand-up, sometimes I'm just amazed. Whatever you think about where people come from. I started as a club comic. I am a club comic. Whatever movements around comedy or wherever anyone comes from

or however you want to categorize comedy, alternative, storyteller, this or that. I am a dyed-in-the-wool fucking stand-up comic. And I started in the fucking trenches of one-nighters in Boston and comedy clubs around the country. And that was where it happened. That's where I made my bones. And I still do clubs, obviously. But, like, I've gotten gotten a following many of you come out to see me and i can do venues that are larger and and filled with people that specifically come to

see me but now that i'm working out this new material yeah i i want to get into the trenches i want to do a five show run at some comedy clubs so i can work shit out and and get my chops in order and get you make sure I'm staying strong, make sure I'm working out. By the way, I think I put a couple pounds back, slipping off the diet, not eating a lot of terrible shit, but I'm keeping the cashew business in business. And not great, not great, but good for you. But, you know, take it easy, right?

Cashews, God damn damn it they're good so but i get down there and and i and i had this great guy this kid uh luke schwartz who uh he's he's actually a door guy at the store which is what i used to be and i always liked him and i'd seen him do a few minutes so i had him come down and open for me he did great job probably gonna have him open for me some more and uh you know it was nice to have a familiar face and, you know, I go up there and I'm laying it out and I'm doing long sets. I got a lot of stuff that's a little open-ended that I'm working through, but just to be in a club, to be in a low ceiling club that seats a couple hundred people, most of the people definitely came to see me. I didn't think San

Diego would come out because there was part of me that thinks like it's a beach town. It's a beach city. It's laid back. It is laid back. I don't know. People seem to travel there specifically to walk around in shorts and flip flops and drink in public. There's a lot of people loopy walking around drunky with half filled drinks in their hands and shorts and scantily dressed at different stages of hitting bottom but look that's a judgment call maybe they're just having fun but i know what it looks like there's a difference between fun and someone should help this person anyway the club was great staff was great and uh just really attentive but the but just the dynamic of the room that first night was just beautiful man it was just beautiful to have that interaction with so many people that came out and i just like be wary folks of yourselves you know trying to

separate stand-up genres you know like oh that guy's a storyteller this guy's a joke guy that may be true but make sure you understand that if you're doing the job of stand-up genres you know like oh that guy's a storyteller this guy's a joke guy that may be true but make sure you understand that if you're doing the job of stand-up you're just a fucking stand-up comic and that's what i've been doing almost more than half of my adult life and there's just moments where i'm like yeah after i've done one show i'm a 55 year old cat and you know after i've done one show on a saturday night and I'm a little tired and it went good just going into that second one feeling it open up feeling the improv you know grooves so you have those neural pathways that allow for riffage are sort of like opening up and I can ride some waves and you know find some new beats and kind of feel the room what a fucking beautiful

fucking weekend of comedy. And I just want to thank the folks down there at American Comedy Club for really being great hosts. Thank Luke Schwartz. And also, San Diego, I don't know much about it, but I do know I had some of the best fucking sushi in my life. And to be honest with you, it might be worth going back down there to eat at this sushi place.

Look, it's Southern California. There's a lot of sushi around. There's a lot of sushi everywhere. And mediocre sushi is not unlike mediocre Indian food. You know what you're going to get. But, you know, rarely are you amazed. You know, it's like, oh, I feel like eating sushi. Okay, let's just go eat sushi.

Indian food would be good. Let's just go to that Indian place. But you sort of accept that it's going to be okay you know some of it's a little better than others for whatever reason but this shit was fucking insane place called azuki azuki sushi lounge in san diego it was like they had three kinds three degrees of fatty tuna it was just fresh as fuck i swear to god i would go back for the sushi. So I've sung my praises of San Diego. I'm a changed man.

It had a lot to do with a basement comedy room and fatty tuna. And now a little updates on some things I just found out. I don't even know if fucking Lynn knows this, actually. It seems that Sword of Trust, the film that I'm in, that I play a major part in, the new Lynn Shelton film, is actually going to be screening at the Boston International Film Festival, Boston, at the Somerville Theater on Friday, April 26th. That's this Friday. I had no idea, but it is. I saw someone tweeted it. So that's great. That's like two blocks away from where I lived in an attic when I was just starting out doing paid work as a comic. I lived in an attic in Somerville in 1989-ish or something. It was not a cool place. But the Somerville Theater is a cool place.

So it looks like you can get tickets for this Friday, April 26th, a screening of Sword of Trust, Boston folks. And also, obviously, my tour dates are coming up. And, you know, shit is selling out, people. And I'm going to keep doing this, even if it's annoying. But I'm doing some of those club dates, I believe, are sold out. Comedy Club on State in Madison, May 23rd, 24th, and 25th. I believe that's sold out. But if you want to drive to St. Louis, June 13th, 14th, and 15th at Helium Comedy Club,

I think those are still available. August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh. I don't know if that's sold out. They added a show August 9th or August 10th, I think August 10th, in Portland at Revolutionary Hall. There's tickets for those shows. Majestic Theater, Dallas, Texas. Go get them, August 22nd. August 23rd, Paramount Theater, Austin, Texas.

August 24th, the Wortham Theater Center in Houston, Texas. The Vogue Theater in Vancouver, September 6th. Listen to that guy. The Moore Theater in Seattle, September 7th. The Vic in Chicago, September 20th. The Masonic Temple in Detroit, September 21th. Pantages Theater in Minneapolis. Love it. The Miriam Theater in Philly on October 10th at 7.30 p.m.

The Kennedy Center, that's a big deal and a big room. Buy tickets, please. Washington, D.C., October 11th. Schubert Theater in Boston, October 12th. I believe I'll be doing two shows there, seven and ten. I'm shooting my special. And then after the special, after I've worked all those months to get to that point, I'm going to blow off some steam the next week

at the James K. Polk Theater in Nashville on October 18th and then on to the Tabernacle Theater in Atlanta, Georgia on October 19th. And then on the 26th, I will end the arc of the event that is the Hey, There's more tour at the masonic uh in san francisco on october 26th dig it all right i feel doughy what a good time to talk to bernie brown what a good time to talk i i just i love love her. I respect her. I like, I like talking to her and, uh, and her Netflix special, the call to courage is streaming now. And it was a real honor

and very exciting for me to have this conversation with Brene Brown. So now I will share it with you. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, So now I will share it with you. death is in our air this year's most anticipated series fx's shogun only on disney plus we live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I cannot believe you have a Piggly Wiggly shirt on. You know I write about Piggly Wiggly in one of my books. You do? Which book? I don't remember.

Oh. But I just talk about going to Piggly Wiggly with my grandma. Well, I grew up in Albuquerque. So, you know, I know Piggly Wiggly and somebody sent me this shirt. I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico for the most part. I didn't know that. Yeah, I know you Texans. We're familiar. That's good. Yeah, we've been on ski slopes with you. We know what you're up to. We know the overdressed, a lot of equipment thing. Overexcessorized. I understand. We know that it's a country. It's not a state.

It's totally a country. I understand. I mean, there's really still people there, like reasonable people that want us to secede from the union. Yeah, it might happen.

They might have their window in the next few years. It's like, it seems like the... It's a shit show. Yeah, that's the only thing that's holding us together in a weird way is this federal system,

but it's starting to look like, well, you know, what do we need to be part of it for? We don't want them. Well, I don't want Californians to come here. Let them stay in their state. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I get it. So, yeah, I went to, I was in London and I was wondering about that. Do you travel internationally?

Yes. Not tons, but yes. Because I noticed something about a lot of the stuff you're talking about and how you talk about it is uniquely American. And I just was wondering, you know, if the cultural shame actually is exported in a way where your way of handling it is is a language they understand. It translates. There are some words that are that are that people struggle with. Like when I say like in the leadership book, I talk about let's rumble. Like let's have a hard conversation where people show up with point of views. And sometimes I'll be like, what is this rumble?

And like a hard conversation. And they're like, we like it. Yeah, but they don't know what you're talking about? Sometimes they don't, sometimes they do. But it's interesting. We did a training in London probably, I don't know, two and a half years ago now. And there were 50 countries of origin represented. And everyone was like, the thing that we have most in common is shame and our fear of vulnerability.

And they got that. They got that. Yeah. I mean, it's a cross-cultural. Well, that seems to be like the thing that you've achieved. And like, look, I watch watch the first time i reached out to you was like three years ago i think i don't know if you remember but i was in houston i was sort of like i gotta talk to her yeah and then i don't i don't know how i figured out your email

but we did have an email exchange yeah and i was like i host this podcast i think it'd be good because i just watched i think the first ted talk and I was like, I'm working on a lot of the same issues that this woman is, but I'm doing it hands-on out here in the world. Yeah. For real. Me too. I'm talking about it, but for myself, I'm in the world working on it. Right.

And I'm like, I've got to talk to her. But see, I had to be careful about this coming into this because it would be very easy for me just to start talking about my own problems and have you help me fix them. I don't know that I'd be good at that. Like, I'm like a little researcher heal thyself. Like, right. Yeah. But you've never done.

You've never been a therapist. Never. So you don't have that. No, I was trained in that program but i went the research route well i don't care for people that much one-on-one oh really no i mean what i want is good i just don't yeah i couldn't i would be a terrible therapist why because of the the sort of like you know tough love instinct the sort of like uh you know, tough love instinct, the sort of like, you know, like, here's what you need to do.

So you're all set. Yes. I got a little bit of that in me. But paradoxically, I also have like a caregiver enmeshment thing where I would be like, you know, like. Oh, right. Yeah. Right.

You might go down with the ship. I'd go down with the ship possibly. Like, yeah. And then, but I'd be resentful the whole time we were sinking. Right. Right. I'd be like, you got me into this shit now. Yeah. Right. Now'd go down with the ship, possibly. Like, yeah. And then, but I'd be resentful the whole time we were sinking. Right, right. I'd be like, you got me into this shit now. Yeah. Right.

Now, who's going to help me? Yeah. Who's going to help me? This is great. This is great. You suck. Like, yeah. Where'd you grow up in Texas?

Born in San Antonio and lived there for a long time off and on. And then Houston. So, Houston, never Austin. Well, I went to UT. Okay. Hook them horns. Yeah. How many kids in your family? I'm the oldest of four. Okay. So Houston, never Austin. Well, I went to UT. Okay. Hook them horns. Yeah. How many kids in your family?

I'm the oldest of four. Okay. So a lot of kids. Yeah. And you've said, I've heard you say you're the fifth generation Texan. Yeah. Your family motto is walk and load. Is that what it was?

Yeah. I'm trying to get it changed, but it's going to take an active God. So what was the family business? No family business. I mean, my dad's a lawyer. Oh, he's a lawyer. Yeah. Well, that's was the family business? No family business. I mean, my dad's a lawyer. Oh, he's a lawyer. Yeah. Well, that's sort of a business.

Yeah. But like, is he a Texan sort of? Oil and gas lawyer he was. Yeah. Until he retired. Yeah. Suburban, cowboy hat. Right.

Yeah. Oil and gas lawyer. Yeah. Representing the oil companies? Representing not the good guys. When did that start? When did you realize that and what that implied? Yeah, he raised, like, yeah, it's interesting because he's conservative and he's raised for not conservative kids.

Oh, really? All of us, yeah. Well, that makes sense, right? It does. You'd think one would go the way of the, but my mom's like an ACLU card carrying. Oh, so you had both sides. Socialist, yes. They're no longer married.

Okay. When did that happen? I think I was 20. Oh, so. Long time. You were out. Barely, yes. Yeah, yeah.

And you were the oldest. I was. Some other ones had to take the hit, huh? They took, yeah. Well, we all took hits in our own way. Right. Yeah, because I was the oldest. I kind of lived through it and they, yeah.

Yeah. And so when you're growing up, well, you know who the meat puppets are and you i do know who the meat puppets are we're probably around the same age so you're kind of rocking totally oh yes rocking in houston yeah texas girl yeah Oh, yeah? Yeah. Always? 22 years. 20, coming up on 20. Congratulations. Thank you. It's a big deal.

We waited a while though, right? Yeah. I did everything I need in the first half of my life. I hear these people, I got sober at 22. I'm like, well, you didn't do the good part. Your bottom must not have been that great. No, and I had a really high bottom, actually, so I feel pretty lucky.

Of course you did. Yeah. You had a pretty high bottom. I don't get the sense that you're somebody who's going to, like, lose complete control ever. I'm not. No, I'm pretty tight. Yeah, so, like, how are you going to hit a low bottom? I mean, mine was relatively low,

but it wasn't like, you know, I wasn't living on the street because there's some part of your brain that no matter how fucked up you get, they're sort of like, all right, you have that part where it's like, this is enough. This is enough. Yeah. I was actually doing the last day of graduate school when I was getting my master's in social work. Yeah.

We had to do a genogram, which is like a family map. So I called my mom and I was like, hey, can you walk me through this genogram? Yeah. And it's like different shapes and lines. And so she's like, what happened to this person? She's like, cirrhosis of the liver, alcoholism. What happened to this person? Overdose.

What happened? And I was like, holy shit. And then I thought about that with my propensity for wildness in general. Right. And then quit drinking the day after graduation and smoking cigarettes, which I still miss. Oh yeah, I'm on nicotine lozenges always. you are yeah i go on and off them but like i just

couldn't like i don't want to smoke but i want something i don't need the nicotine but i want to smoke uh-huh yeah you don't have nothing nothing caffeine zero zero hmm yeah the love of the masses you have yeah i guess maybe i don't know some some days depending so so most of the masses you have. Yes, maybe. I don't know. Some days, depending. So most of the alcoholism runs up your mom's line? Both. Because I was wondering, because I'm an amateur psychologist.

I know. That's why I love your podcast. Yeah, fix me. I can't fix you. I think you can fix me. Well, I'm curious about the thing, because I'm looking at, I watched I watched the two Ted talks and I watched the new Netflix special, which was great. It was sort of, you seem to be evolving the message and it seems like the message that you've sort of constructed out of, you know, shame as a basis through vulnerability, through courage, you know, redefining bravery and also all the repercussions of both sides of this. Yeah.

So all the repercussions of both sides of this is a personal way to self-discovery and better behavior and better humans, better families, better communities. And ultimately, there's a possibility that you could save the world, Brene. And I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Thank you for the appreciation. You're going to get credit. The world will be saved and there will be a monument to you that you'll be uncomfortable with. Barely.

Yeah. A large statue of you that you're like, oh. That I would hate, yeah. Not that dress. No. But I think when I was looking at it, what compelled me in terms of trying to understand is that I knew some like where do you because you say it but you don't really say where you came from you know in terms of like you know when you talk about therapy during your breakdown ted talk you're sort of like you know

family stuff no fuck that but you clearly did it yeah so but like i i guess my question and i think we should probably talk about these points so people know why I'm asking this, is that that part of the equation that, you know, when you talk about the power of vulnerability, which is your trip. Yeah. And it's true. Like, I'm sort of on the precipice of some of that. And I've been working at it from a different way.

I perform in front of crowds. And because of my background, my sense of self was sort of fractured. And I just, by instinct, would throw myself into uncomfortable situations constantly to sort of try to fortify and understand who I am. I don't know why I didn't do it personally, but I wanted to drag audiences through that for three decades. but I wanted to drag audiences through that for three decades. But it's interesting that you just leaned into that vulnerability and put yourself out there. What do you think compelled that?

But see, it's a vulnerability that, in another point you talk about, when you are public with something, with your story, with your information, what I can do in this room with you or what I can do in front of a crowd, it may not be something that I can do in the long term in a one-on-one relationship.

Got it. Yeah. So like you have that vulnerability that you're talking about or that you put forth in front of people is very different, you know, than sort of doing the day-to-day showing up with, you up with wholeheartedness. With one other person, especially.

That you have a relationship with. It's very easy to go from town to town and toot your horn and get everyone crying and then go like, I got to go. Email the site. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think the hardest moments I have still are personal. I think there's a difference between vulnerability and intimacy. It's required, though, vulnerability.

Yes, prerequisite. But I think intimacy is another step deeper and braver. Yeah, I do. And that requires vulnerability plus trust in the long haul. I think it requires vulnerability plus trust plus a strong sense of self-worth. Right. The self-worth thing keeps coming up. I guess my reaction to it all was in, let me come around it this way. I assume that you came from some sort of out of control environment that eventually drove

you to not have that happen in your life. I think that's fair. And that, you know, that your interests, like, as you said, in your work is, you know, like, how do I get around this vulnerability thing? What research do I have to do to not make my to to maintain my defensiveness in a righteous way this is so uncomfortable yeah that's exactly what i did yeah i did not want the answer to be the answer i wanted to do the research to fend my way of being in the world right sure right and and that it blew up in your face which led to a breakthrough and and a sort of like you know, epiphany of how it all fits together.

Shame and vulnerability and the repercussions of that and how they ripple through all levels of human activity. Yes, I think that's right. I think that I spent my entire life trying to outrun and outsmart vulnerability. Yeah. And I think my plan was to get the empirical evidence to support my way of being in the world. Right.

So when you started school, your interest, were you aware that your interest was social work and that that was your channel through which to do this? I mean, what were your interests heading into this? Oh, no, because I didn't finish college until I was 29. So I started, I graduated from high school when I was 17, hitchhiked across Europe for six months, came back, kind of went in and out

of college for a couple years, got kicked out. Yeah, you got kicked out for what? Grades. Oh, really? Yeah, not because I got bad grades,

I just stopped going. Oh, you ditched. I just ditched. Yeah. And then I didn't. You're tired. I should have ditched and withdrawn,

but I didn't. And then I kind of got a job like in the corporate sector taking calls in Spanish. You were good at Spanish? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's good.

Well, I mean, back then, yeah, I was, yeah. Yeah. I took six years of French and so I could speak Spanish and not have to work for AT&T. I was like, gracias por llamar AT&T.

Mi nombre es Brene. You were that lady. I was that lady. And then every now and then they'd be like, they'd throw something at me that was super phone techie. I'd be like, like the word Jack. I'm like, Jose. They're like, that's not Jack.

They're like, that's not a phone Jack. But then I went back to school probably mid-20s. Yeah. And wanted to be a history major. And I had to walk through the social work department to get to the history building at University of Texas. And when I was walking through, I was like, what is going on in here? Like, it was amazing.

There were these protest groups and just all these little things on the wall that said, hey, do you want to do this rally? Or do you want to work with these kids? You know, and I was like, this is really interesting. Then when I got to the history department, everyone I talked with was like 70 white with ginormous foreheads. Right. And I was like.

Real academics. Yeah. And I was like, I don't fit here. Right. So the social work thing, you felt like, you know like there's something proactive going on. There's excitement. There's activism here. And I was an activist already.

So there was like- You were. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like in a deep way, like you were out there doing the stuff, grassroots? Yes. Yeah. Because I was also, when I worked for AT&T in Espanol and then eventually in English,

I was a union organizer and a union steward. So, yeah. Okay. Right. So old school. Old school. Progressive. Solonski. Yeah. union steward. So, yeah. Okay. Right. So, old school. Old school. Progressive. Sololinsky.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Well, this makes sense to me. And because I think that social work is a very noble and necessary profession that you hear very little about. It's amazing.

And I don't know what condition, how it works on a state level or a national level, but it seems highly necessary, the position of social worker. And I never hear anything about it. Yeah, we're quiet. You just don't want to live without us. So if you've got a kid that's on drugs and in trouble, we're going to help you. If you've got a parent getting discharged from a hospital that needs resources, you're not going to do it without us.

We do everything from policy work to, you know, therapeutic work clinicians, like all my therapists have been social workers. And is it relative to state funding and that kind of stuff? I mean, how does it work? I mean, every policy, I mean, state funding, federal funding, nonprofit funding, some private practice across the board. But you right away decided I'm not going to be a therapist. I'm not going to sit in the rooms with these people whose lives are falling apart or what have you. I thought maybe I was, I don't know, I think I thought about it. I went to graduate school at the University of Houston because they had the only political social work concentration

in the country. So I went to like a real political activism path, macro social work. The therapeutic stuff did not interest me as much. I wanted to be a consumer of it, but I didn't want it. Like, it was a thing where the social work axiom is start where people are and walk side by side with them, a compagnia to walk with. And I'm like, let's just speed this shit up and say, here's what's going on. You need to fix this and, you know, leave your check at the door. Yeah.

Yeah. And so when I realized that wasn't really how it went, I was like, not interested. So, but you do know that is how it went. That is how it goes. But right. I mean, in the sense that that was not the area you wanted to do. No, it wasn't. No.

Like to walk with people on their journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want to like, cause I, I wrote down like the idea of, you know, there's a fine line between, you know, control and simplifying. Yeah, I live on that line. Yeah, that's my line.

That's my favorite line. It's really weird that you kind of know me better than most people do. No, I don't. Yeah, you have the control thing. I thought that was really embedded deep, hard to pick up on. It's not. I'm offended. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, obviously.

But I was just curious about where this all comes from. Because I struggle this struggle. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. Like for whatever reason, I'm doing this weird bit out of my past right now. I'm working on this piece of comedy that's based on my obsession with circus freaks when I was a child. And it started to dawn on me that I had these books about the original P.T. Barnum circus freaks, you know, bearded ladies, Siamese twins. You know, these were people who were on display,

you know, and I read about them and I went to see whatever was left of the touring circus freak community at the Albuquerque State Fair. And I was trying for some reason recently because of my own struggle, trying to live a wholehearted life. Yeah.

You know, what was that about? And then I started to think about how uncomfortable I was as a kid because my parents were so consuming and selfish and without boundary and unable to nurture and all these things that I've really investigated a lot. And I realized there was probably some part of me that was looking at these performers, whether they were being exploited or not. They were owning themselves because they had no choice. You know, this guy's got a half a body

growing out of his side and he's fucking dressing it. So like, I think I can be okay with this haircut. You know, there was some, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, yeah. Just finding, I mean. They had no choice. They had no choice, but to be authentic.

Right. Where a lot of us can bullshit our way, our whole lives. Right. It's just exhausting. So, like, this was sort of, it's all been very relevant to me, you know, what you're doing because it's only, I'm 55 and my heart is breaking because of how cynical I've become and how, you know, how I was willing personally to surrender and think that this type of compromise, like, you know, it's not like I don't want to change, but maybe I don't have time or, you know, I'm just going to have to live with this. Like, you know, I know there's some other part of me that I think for most people, this vulnerability part is probably pretty young emotionally.

And, you know, somehow or another, wherever it happened, whatever happened, they decided to protect that kid. The walls went up, the notes were dug. So when you open that up, you know, at age 50 and, you know, and your emotional, you know, strata is, you know, 10, you know, with the same sort of rage and sensitivity. And fear, yeah. And fear. But the sad thing is, is the childish rage, rage you know as a child is sort of like you

expect it but when a grown man is raging like a fucking seven-year-old yeah it's dangerous and fucked up yeah you know and i knew i was balancing all this shit and i just you know recently have just tired you know what though you know what's crazy? What? Is in my experience, this is speaking as a researcher, I don't think, I think midlife is when those walls normally come down. I think, I don't experience a lot of people in their, you know, in their confused 20s or perfect 30s. Yeah.

And they're like, go get them 40s. Like 40, I mean, most people start to do the, you know, engage in that process you just described really in midlife. It's really in your 40s and 50s where people are like, this armor is freaking killing me. Like I cannot, I get that it used to keep me safe, but I can't freaking breathe. Like I cannot, I get that it used to keep me safe, but I can't freaking breathe. Right.

Like I cannot breathe anymore. Right. It is no longer serving me. Right. And so I do think, I do think what you're, and then I do think you are kind of laid bare in a really weird time in your life, which I think is why you see people doing a lot of midlife weirdness right but you right that but those you know sort of fall under the the the rubric of you know what you've put together as you know what what does shame you know manifest you know when you know when you're guarded you know what are those things that you do to maintain it at all cost right and

that life is a dangerous life for everybody involved some way no yeah it's like i always think about like in the big book it's like that tornado that it will pick up anything in the vicinity yeah and just destroy it in order to maintain its core that thing well that's the weird thing about you know you you do have a choice at these crossroads you know of how you're going to live your life and like if you want to be a safer person and you know that you're fucked up in these ways i mean either you're going to walk through it or you're just going to shut down altogether and and die inside and i think you actually when you get to that crossroads if you even see that you're at a crossroads, if you choose to not acknowledge, I think you actually become more dangerous

because you double down on the armor. But you might also isolate. I mean... Oh, yeah, you can for sure isolate. Right, so which is less dangerous to most people, but to you, it's just a hell. Well, yeah, and I think most people would argue, at least in my field,

that psychological isolation is the most dangerous human condition we experience. For the individual, for society? Both. Huh. Both. Why? Because he might snap?

Yeah, and I don't think it's dramatic as a snap. I think it is, I think anyone you're connected to is wounded by it. And I do think when we see people snapping, it's driven often by psychological isolation. Right. see people snapping, it's driven often by psychological isolation. Right. And which is enforced by technological isolation and the ability to live a life alone that feels very active and also nameless in the type of behavior you can engage with online. Totally.

Because we confuse communication with connectedness. I mean, all these social media tools, which I love and use too. Sure. But they're not connection tools. They're communication tools. Right. And there's a big ass difference. Yeah, because the people you're communicating a lot of times are just like-minded weirdos who are up to no good. And nobody knows anybody's name.

And it's exciting. And it's exciting. And there's no risk. So if I say, if I go onto Facebook or something and say, hey, this thing really happened to me today and it was so hard, it's not as vulnerable as picking up the phone and calling you and saying, hey, Mark, it's Brene. Do you have a minute? I mean, that's an ask.

I know. No one wants to pick up the phone. Like people would rather, they don't even want to email barely. No. Just text. Just text and like, I'll slide into your DMs. It's the worst. It's the worst.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm guilty. Oh, me too. too okay so let's go back let's judge them yeah no yeah no of course we're not that bad no we're not as bad as we could be worse yeah i mean we used it because we're busy and we have to like you know i have time to talk yeah for greater good our reason is different exactly why don't people understand i don't know so okay so you you you you go to the social work school yeah and you're going to be a researcher yeah and you know you write i saw like a couple of academic piece papers you're doing the big work you're getting attention as an academic and

as a researcher and then you decide on shame? No, I wanted to do my dissertation on shame, but my dissertation chair was like, not a good topic. What are you, like, and then I was like. Why? What was his argument?

It was of her, and her argument was like, this seems really important to you. Don't do something that our committee's going to own that's important to you, because they'll tear it up, you know. And I was like, no, I still want to do it. And then I went to the stacks, the library, for those of you that don't know.

And the very first paper I found said the decision to study shame has been the death of many academic careers. Really? You just said that in a book? You just happened upon the book? In an article. Yeah, no, when I was looking up shame in academics. And now looking back 20 years ago, I understand why.

You know what? This really weird, it's like a syndrome. When you're a reader and you read something about shame, people get so sucked into it that they can't stay objective about what they're reading. Like even editors have a hard time editing my book sometimes because they're like, oh my God, this is me. I didn't know you could talk about this. I didn't know this had a name. People immediately personalize it because they're like oh my god this is me this is this i didn't know this was how i didn't know you could talk about this i didn't know this had a name people immediately personalize it there's no because they live in it yeah there's no us and them

with shame like we all have it so it's hard it's hard not to get sucked into it and i think the name the word shame but shouldn't academics be more uh objective than that yeah we have they're just people and often in deep shame. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, because they wanted

to do something else. And yeah, and the system, the academics is basically, it's a shamey place. And it's also very insulated and very self-important sometimes. Super.

It's like, what is the Kissinger quote? I don't know. A good one? Yeah, it's the only good one. It's the only one that he said that I think is true. The politics and the academy are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small. Yeah, right.

And it has to, and that's, yeah, that makes sense. But I guess also, like, I want to make sure I talk about this or I'm going to, you know, posit it now that, you know, not now that you know not everybody you know struggles he struggles like in order for you to find in your research that there are people that do feel that they're worthy yeah and that they had you know at least one grounded parent that kept them somewhat with their you know with a sense of self that could move through the world and not in self destructive or destructive way that there is this that a lot of this some of this stuff doesn't apply to everybody i know i would disagree okay i would say that the people who kind of we

defined as wholehearted who really find self-worth and who they are and can be authentic a lot of them fought for that they weren't necessarily they know they were fighting yes yeah some of them were raised with it but that's the biggest i would say 80 fought 20 one way or the other yeah one way or the other they figured it out they figured it out that's the interesting two thing about these type of topics which you know you stay out of spirituality and you know there's a very you know in a sense in terms of talking about it with any you know what i mean like it doesn't seem to be the drive the drive is practical the drive is practical yeah and that you know that can have its place i guess not unlike therapy can have its place but you know these are the issues and this is what the research shows that if you're filled

with shame you know this is you know it's gonna i i feel like i i feel like i i don't want for people who don't know you i think we just i have to get to you know what the what the thrust of of you know what you found out was so you you just so you you're in the stacks and you say fuck academia i'm gonna do shame i did and then i was like then i did my dissertation and got out and i said i'm gonna study for shame for six months and move on it turned into six years um but I think for me I think for me the big thing is that I ended up studying all the kind of experiences and emotions that give meaning to our lives I mean I think you know all of us know that warm wash that comes over us that makes us feel small and not enough.

You know, I've felt I've been feeling it on and off through this conversation. Have you? No, you have not. A little. No, not even a little. No, I felt it. I think I think I felt it the first time I watched the first TED talk. I was like, I can't. She's got to figure it out. I think I have figured out what we need to do. I haven't figured out how personally to do it, for sure.

I mean, that's a work in progress. That's relieving. Yeah, no, it's both relieving. You would think that I would just get a free pass on it, but no. It's super hard for me. And now, with the Netflix special coming out and doing that kind of stuff, that's an awkward place for someone who's a research professor. Like, that's weird. Well, I imagine, let's go back and we'll talk about, because I want people to understand

what you do. So you spent six years researching shame and that feeling of less than. Everybody identifies with shame. Yeah. And then I really started like kind of writing on shame. What is it? What isn't it? How is it different from guilt, humiliation, embarrassment?

I like that separation. Shame is I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad. Yeah, because there's a huge difference. There is, but guilt always leads to shame. Not always. Really? No, guilt.

I'm pro-guilt. Okay. Because that's a self-regulator. It is. It's adaptive it's guilt is i did something i hold it up against my values and think this is not aligned with my values i need to change it or make amends shame is not i did something bad but i i'm a shitty person and the thing is like that i want i want to you know say and i think you know are you getting

mad at me no i'm listening this is my this is this is what i do when i listen intently that with that i'd see i i thought like oh christ he's talking again and he thinks you know, say, and I think you know, are you getting mad at me? No, I'm listening. This is my, this is what I do when I listen intently. See, I thought like, oh Christ, he's talking again and he thinks he knows what I do. No, I'm listening. Okay. It's my listening face. Did you see what I just did though? I just had the warm wash of like, oh, she's like a shame right there. I'm like, you're listening.

But I decided she's judging me. She's had enough of my ideas. She's got this figured out. Why am I not giving her more time? Yeah, no. That didn't happen? No. And I'm leaning in saying this is really interesting. You who not giving her more time? Yeah. No. That didn't happen? No. And I'm leaning in saying this is really interesting.

You who doesn't like one-on-one conversation. No. I do like one-on-one. I wanted to retract that. I like one-on-one. I don't like small talk. I don't like bullshit. I don't know how to do it.

So. It's great. I do it sometimes at the beginning just to make people comfortable. The thing about shame that in my experience personally is that, you know, if, do you ever read Robert Firestone? Mm-mm. Oh. All right. So. that in my experience personally is that you know if do you ever read robert firestone all right so but note to self no he wrote a book called the fantasy bond and there's a few books in my life that have sort of changed my perception of how yeah like not unlike your white light moments i've had a couple one with ernest becker's denial of death which you know

kind of posits the idea that people have almost a genetic need to feel part of something bigger than themselves to find meaning in life. And there's like for a long time, I kind of held that, that, you know, we're all in existential terror. So, you know, why wouldn't we be doing all the things we're doing? But you have, you know, broadened that and sort of pushed aside the existential terror thing to sort of create this spectrum of actual human reactions and behaviors that more dictate, you know, what our problems are. Yeah. But I do believe in the belonging. I do believe in the existential.

Yeah, for sure. But the Firestone thing is basically that if you grew up with any sort of parental emotional abuse or emotional neglect, that what, as this is what blew my mind about shame and i think this is like the big problem and i don't think you can really have the time necessarily to talk to anybody specific trauma or why they are going to resonate in what however they're going to with your conversations right but like the the epiphany i had the other day was like when you say like you know being vulnerable and moving through stuff and showing up

and as with your authentic self to be is courageous and that you're not gonna it's not gonna kill you there's part of me that's sort of like

no no no it might it might you know like it could kill me right well yeah because okay so I'm gonna go in

with my authentic self and great I'm gonna let my authentic self be crushed whereas if i just would have worn just half my armor maybe maybe i could have moved through it a little bit taking some blows right but now it's going to take five years for me to fucking rebuild and whatever and you know whatever caused it and you know then you have to you know sort of like that's neither here

nor there kind of but the fantasy bond is essentially that if if a child is not cared for or nurtured properly or allowed to develop themselves, when they feel uncomfortable or that they're not getting that stuff and they feel bad, the only thing they can do is blame themselves because the parents are parents. It can't be the parents' fault, and that happens innately. So you put in place this very judgmental parent. I think that's true. Inside. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think we make up a narrative that's not, she wasn't capable of loving me. It's, I am unlovable.

Right. I do think that is. And I think that forms a huge basis of shame. Right. And it's not just, it's not the basis. It's the core of what some people call home. Yeah. Inside. For sure. So so so every time something hurts, they look at the narrative.

They look for the narrative that explains what they did wrong. And also it becomes comforting. They don't know that there's another option that isn't terrifying like joy or letting go. They don't know that. And so that's where I mean, it is. I mean, this is the heart of it. Like the shame is basically the fear that there's something about us or something we've done or failed to do that makes us unlovable and unworthy of connection and belonging. And so I do think that becomes home for people. Right. And they keep doing things to strengthen it. To validate it.

Yeah. No, I think that's right. And I think, you know, it's interesting. you know it's interesting there's something and i think in rising strong or some one of the some somewhere i wrote something that the one of the greatest the most dangerous stories we tell ourselves are is about our lovability that we are not lovable because someone wasn't willing or didn't have the ability to love us and i think when i say that people just just can't speak sometimes it just hits people like but i thought this was about my lovability. I'm like, no,

because that person didn't have the capacity or wasn't willing. It's not a reflection of how lovable you are. And that is the core of shame. That's the core of self-worth. And I think it's very hard. Vulnerability is courage, basically. Vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure,

the willingness to show up when we can't control the outcome which is almost never we can never control the outcome because you can't control what people think or perspective that's one thing i liked about the netflix special is that that that realization that you know that our brain as as a biological function to sort of manage fear creates bad visions. Bad stories. About what could happen. Yeah.

Because its job is to protect us. That's the only way I use my imagination. Oh, it's going to be bad. Me too. It's foreboding joy. Like if something good is happening, I'm like, oh shit, we're in for. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't do the joy thing yet. Yeah. Sometimes. That's like, we can measure your capacity for vulnerability very specifically by how open you are to joy. I do a joke about it. You do? I do. I literally say that I don't know how to have fun.

It seems ridiculous. Happiness, that's crazy. If I can get five or six minutes of relief a day, you know, I'm good. Yeah. And it's like gotten to the point where I'm skeptical of other people's joy. Like I just I don't buy it. Like if someone says to me, we had a great time at that thing last night. I'm like, did you though?

Did you have a great time? Or did you just not think about who you were for a couple hours? We could never hang out for very long periods of time. Because, yeah, I think that cynicism is armor. Yeah, I know. And it hurts every time you do it, kind of. Because you walk away, you know you're doing it. When you're doing it, you're like, why am I doing this? Why?

Because then the other thing you said in the Netflix thing that resonated with me is that, like, I did this other joke. These aren't jokes, but this is why, you know, I connect to what you were saying. It's like I say I'm not good at empathy, really, with anybody. You know, and then I say, you know, in relationship, like, I can understand other people's pain if I caused it. But, you know, I don't believe you're not good at empathy no i am now but i mean that like you know because i had to engage it like you know i was so cynical and so bitter that you know i i was was guarded and charming and funny and angry and all those things but i i am able to be deeply moved i just found it threatening somehow it's a different point in my life.

Like, you know, anybody's joy, anybody's happiness, anybody was some sort of like judgment. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can do that as well, too. Yeah. I mean, I can. I think vulnerability for me is hard.

It's really interesting. We do these exercises when we take leaders through this work. Yeah. And we said vulnerability is and then it's a blank. It's in a stem. And you have no idea how many people put vulnerability is the first step to betrayal. Like that's how people think of vulnerability. I'm going to get fucked.

Yeah. I'm going to share something that's going to be used against me. Might. And you encourage that you got to take the hit, right? I encourage that you share with people who've earned the right to hear it. Like vulnerability without boundaries is just not vulnerability. It's desperation. It's oversharing.

You're looking to get hit. Yeah. I don't know that you're looking to get hit. Not hit. I mean, I don't want to make sure I'm clear on this. Not hit, but like hurt. I don't know if you're looking to get hurt. You know, some people do.

Some people share, overshare. Yeah, because they want to keep that shame going. Yeah. Some people overshare to get validation that they can't trust anybody or that no one will be there which is really hard i think we've all done that before like i was just in ireland don't look for validation from the irish no no they're they're sort of like yeah they're gonna keep you in your place in a good way it's nice but no i think you're right you know because i've done it publicly. And like, I don't know that.

I think that in and of itself, oversharing and expressing that type of need and desperation is also a defense in some weird way. Oh, it's totally a defense. It's inverted or something. It's inverted armor. It is. And it's often looking for validation that I'm as alone as I think I am. Right.

And, you know, the validation is really- And special. And special. Right. The terminal uniqueness thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I know that one. I know that one too. From the literature. From the Bible, from the Bibli. Yeah. The secret society literature.

Well, where does all this shame come from, Brene? Why? Why is it? In come from, Brene? Why? Why is it? In your research, what'd you do? Interview hundreds of shamed people? Yeah, we just crossed 400,000 pieces of data. Oh my God. So like you really want, you and you,

oh, you don't think that people know you're not a control freak? That's so rude, man. No, yes, no, I'm just, I like it. I've got all of the evidence. This is an equation. It is. It's so rude, man. No. Yes. No. I'm just, I like it. I've got all of the evidence. This is an equation. It is. It's undeniable. Wait, have you ever done your Enneagram?

Maybe once. I just did mine like a couple weeks ago. God, it pissed me off. But is it bullshit? I don't know because I don't know the science behind it. But all I know is it made me mad. I get a little nervous about. Me too.

About the fun sort of like, hey, just get a tarot reading. I'm like, can't handle it. I can't is it made me mad i get a little i get a little nervous about me too about the the fun sort of like hey just get a tarot reading i'm like can't handle it i can't handle it again now you know because like i know it's bullshit but i'll walk away going like oh it is kind of oh fucking like yeah i think i don't remember yeah i someone did it at some point no it was just funny because when they said they said you have really strong instincts and beliefs and you will spend your life collecting data to support them. That's what it said. Right. It pissed me off.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it got you? Yeah, it got me. It also said control is an issue. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not trying to be rude.

No, I own it. Oh, good. It's me. Yeah. I think I don't know what it is about me and people who are controlling. I don't know that I really am because I can't keep, yeah, I'm a little emotional. You know, like I'm a yeller and like, you know, and I'm like. I'm a yeller.

Oh, okay. Yeah, because apparently the, like on my Enneagram, apparently the emotion that underpins is rage and anger. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I got some of that sometimes. Oh. Yeah. I just see the world like should be this way and it pisses me off when it's not the world people in general yeah like just like lines you know yeah well how this restaurant is operating

everything i'm making a bad face like this is terrible yeah i i don't want to be like that sometimes i think but i can be so let's like make sure we like so from shame you get to vulnerability and the sort of the basic message of of what you're doing that is proactive and I think that helps people like I wrote down when I like I watched the the the the two TED talks and the Netflix special and I realized like what I wrote down is exactly what somebody who was like wanting to understand what you were saying and taking notes during one of your lectures like and I have it all here and you say to yourself like when I get home I'm gonna like this is how it's gonna be and the thing is it's all very satisfying to hear and you what you move through on stage and then what you feel you

know you're crying you're like that's me oh my so touching. Like, you know, I have to do that. But it's all up here. And I think that making it action in your heart could take time. Oh, it completely takes time. I mean, like, you didn't build those walls overnight, and you're not going to take them down overnight. Right. And it's a practice. It's like I spend a lot of time, even with Steve, my husband, my kids, you know, armoring up and coming across armored and then having to circle back and say, I apologize. When you told me that, I actually got scared.

Right. You know, and so this is what I do. Like, I get scary when I'm scared sometimes. Yeah. And so. But that shit wears out. It does. It's so exhausting.

It's just like you end up draining people. You do. And they're like, no, I'm not going to. It's so exhausting. It's just like you end up draining people. You do. And they're like, no, I'm not going to. See, that was the other thing that I wrote down is that, you know, in a lot of what you're talking about, vulnerability and empathy, you know, coming to empathy, which is the antidote. Yes.

To all the things that blame, you know, manifests. Yes. Shame and blame is something that people do who are in shame. something that people do who are in shame and and the other thing that people do when they're in shame is you know what what was the the the the the the the logic of like you know violence addiction and all that you said where does that come from that's the differences between shame and guilt like people that are highly kind of use a lot of guilt proneness like if you do something if i knock this over on your desk right now i'm'm like, that was a dumb thing to do, but I'm not a dumb person. People who can differentiate self from action, who are guilt prone, have lower rates of addiction, depression, violence,

aggression, bullying, eating disorders. Shame is highly, highly correlated. To all of those. With all of those. Like you said that, to putting it out, you put your pain into other people. Yeah. Well, first you drill a hole through your heart with it and then when that pain gets so bad you lash out at other people yeah and you do the other stuff addiction all that yeah i mean addiction and shame are so correlated right that researchers really even have a hard time figuring out where one started starts in the other ends like it's even hard to predict the timing like were you

shame prone first and then used addiction to self-medicate or did you have some kind of genetic addiction issue and that became shameful? You know, like, so shame and addiction are super correlated. So I guess like my question around that is that with empathy, like, because there's some part when, when you've behaved a certain way or that you've lived a life in shame and you've acted out in all these different ways that are horrible and you finally realize it, that the ultimate fear is that, you know, to sort of have empathy and to let that go, that you'll never stop crying and that, you know, that vulnerability will be, you know, somehow judged. You won't be able to ever, you know, what is that fundamental fear of like, well, if

I give in and I let myself, you know, grieve or process or engage the empathy or the vulnerability that I'm somehow going to be destroyed? You know, I think, yeah, I think the fear is like in just really simple terms, if I take off the armor and let myself be seen, what if no one loves or cares for what they see? Yeah, I put a lot of work into this, I put a lot of work into this. I put a lot of work into the defense mechanisms. And so vulnerability, it's like,

when I would go out and talk about vulnerability for years, it was so hard because so many of us were raised to believe that it's weakness, right? Like you just keep the armor up. And then I was working with special forces at Fort Bragg and I asked this question, like, vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Like, we feel vulnerable when we feel emotionally exposed, at risk, and uncertain. And I said, give me an example of courage in your life or in the life of someone that you know that didn't require vulnerability.

Give me one example of bravery that didn't require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And there was just silence until this one guy stood up and said, three tours, ma'am. There is no courage without vulnerability. A week later, I'm with the Seahawks doing some work with Coach Carroll. Ask the guys and the players, give me an example of courage. And because they're all like, vulnerability, why is she here talking to us about vulnerability? I said, give me a single example of courage on the field or off that doesn't require vulnerability. They're like, there is no courage without vulnerability after they thought about it. We've asked that question to 15,000 people now. I'm still freaking wanting the answer where you can be brave and you don't have to be

vulnerable, but it doesn't exist. But that seems to be, it could be a kind of a broad definition of vulnerability. I mean, vulnerability in a combat situation is you're just there. You're out there in it. You're innately vulnerable. Yes, whether it's a parenting situation, a situation with your partner, or you're in battle. It's uncertainty, it's risk, and it's emotional exposure. Yeah.

And the hard thing is for a lot of folks, you know, when we do work with the military and veterans, vulnerability is death. Right. So they literally come home thinking, if I'm vulnerable, I'll get killed. So then they come home and have a really hard time engaging with their partners and their children

and their community because... It corrupted their entire vulnerability structure. And some of us were corrupted just the way we were raised and then you've got real casualties of trauma too so you have people who are because of you know because of racism and sexism and those things you have to armor up right so how do you maintain your vulnerability in that and and why don't you sell me on that i will sell you on that because here's what I'll say. We have to work for systemic change.

But while we're working on systemic change, we still have to create safe, brave spaces where you can take off the armor. If you're a teacher and kids literally have to be armored to get to school every day and get home, like physically and emotionally, it's your job to create a space for six hours where they can take that shit off and breathe and see the world. Right. If you are a boss, if you are a parent, we have to create spaces where people can breathe, where they can take the armor off, even if we have to acknowledge that when they leave, they have to put it back on. Yeah. So I think it's a two-pronged approach, like fight the systemic stuff and create spaces where people can be seen. And that also goes in a more, which is probably more challenging because it's not necessarily systemic outside of individuals, in your relationships with people. God, it's hard.

Yes. Because you have habits, you have patterns, you have the way you understand each other, which can become just a death dance. Totally, yeah. And when we ask people, what is vulnerability for you? The answer is saying I love you first. Right. The first date after my divorce. Trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage.

Sitting with my wife who has breast cancer, stage four, talking about plans for our toddlers. Like how the mythology that vulnerability is weakness started is beyond me because those things are scary, but there's just no calculus where they're weak. Yeah, it seems like that's why people always say, you know, bullies are actually weak because, you know, they have to act this way to hurt others in order to make up for their own sort of loss or, you know, lack of self-worth. Yeah. Fear.

Shame. Bullying is very tied to shame. Yeah. So moving through and that shame that could have been wired into a kid from his old man or from his mother or whatever.

Totally. That's the other systemic problem. The bigger systemic problem outside of schools is how do you dictate how parents should act

and how humans should act. I mean, that seems to be the wild card in all this. It's the total wild card. That's why I'm not sure that it's the best intervention point. Yeah. Like if you said you can talk to a thousand educators or a thousand parents,

I'm going to pick the educators because parents sometimes say, you know what? My dad shamed the shit out of me and I turned out okay. Right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Did you? Yeah. That's where I'm like, did you? Did you really? sometimes say you know what my dad shamed the shit out of me and i turned out okay right yeah you know yeah did you yeah that's where i'm like did you did you really i can tell by your tone that you're okay yeah yeah mind your own business yeah yeah or and you know and oh man yeah shame and parenting is rough yeah i can't imagine it and so now, so the, the work is really to get to a place where, you know, vulnerability is safe and, and, and also engaging in, you know, actively engaging in empathy. I don't think it comes natural. I mean, like, like what you were talking about, enmeshment or, or, you know, when, you know, somebody has problems and you try to fix them. Like codependency is sort of some kind of malignant empathy.

That's a great word for it. It's just not, yeah, it's almost the opposite because interestingly, codependent, and I speak from both personal and professional knowledge, codependency is driven by selfishness usually. Sure. It's like, it is like, I need you to stop behaving this way because it's actually scary for me.

Right. You know. Well, that's recovery. Yeah. That is recovery. Yeah. But, but this sort of the job of trying to get someone to behave a certain way, you know, enables you to not deal with your own shit.

Totally. But then the downside of that is it annihilates your sense of self it does it's because you don't you here's what's interesting this is my this is my theory that i think is backed up by data you cannot be empathic with someone if you don't know where you end and they begin right right yeah do you mean sure sure yeah because they're you know if you are sort of if there's no cap on your personality, you're just going to kind of like mesh almost immediately. Totally.

You're just one of those people. Like, oh, look, we're one person. You're an appendage. You're an appendage. It is. And I don't know where I end and you begin. Sure. So everything, I question the motivation behind everything you're doing for me.

Right. Is that terrible? It's a bad relationship. Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. Someone's going to get tired. Someone's going to get tired.

So, okay. So, creating a space for vulnerability and empathy and, you know, and trying to hold that space in your relationships or institutionally. And then, you know, hopefully, you know, the loving with your whole, what is it? Wholehearted? Yeah. Wholehearted. That's what we call it. I was trying to figure out, like, what is, how loving with your whole, what is it? Wholehearted? Yeah, wholehearted. That's what we call it.

I was trying to figure out, like, what is, how would you define this group of people that I'm finding in the research that, like, completely believe that they're enough, even when they screw things up and make mistakes. Yeah. And imperfect shit happens to them. Yeah. And I was like, I think they're wholehearted. Yeah.

And one thing I want to say, though, that you said, making vulnerability safe. It needs to be safe. It doesn't have to be comfortable. Like, I'm so over the need that everyone has for comfort. Yeah, I don't have that problem. I'm always uncomfortable. Me too. I'm always a little uncomfortable too.

Unless I'm by myself. I'm always a little uncomfortable too. Are you an introvert? Unless I'm by myself. I think that like, I don't think I'm an introvert, but I do find, you know, left to my own devices, I probably won't do much. Yeah. And I'll hang out by myself and I'll dick around with, you know, like multitasking nothing. Me too.

I got multi nothing done. So I guess then like my question, something i didn't hear you talk about which i think is tricky now culturally in that you know you talk about you know the spaces that are being being created for women and you know around you know race and gender issues which are proactive and great is that like maybe i maybe it's in the book but what I didn't hear was the importance of forgiveness. God. Shit. When I wrote The Gifts of Imperfection, that was 10 years ago.

Yeah. I had a chapter on forgiveness. And right before I went to publication, I did a focus group with rabbis. And I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means one of the rules in grounded theory are there are no outliers. You can't like put a bunch of data on sticky notes and be like, oh, this shit doesn't fit with everything else.

I'm going to stuff it into my pocket. Like everyone's, all the data matters. Well, these rabbis blew my whole theory that I was going to publish in the Gifts of Imperfection and Forgiveness out of the water. I was like, oh my God, this doesn't fit with what I was going to publish in the gifts of imperfection on forgiveness out of the water. I was like, oh my God, this doesn't fit with what I was going to write. It was about forgiveness and self-worth and self-protection.

I think that's what it was about. So I pull it out of the gifts and I'm like, I'm not going to mess with forgiveness. Somebody else can do that. Then I'm writing rising strong like six years later wait what was why rabbis and what was their particular as a jew i'm just curious um they were talking about but why'd you put it before rabbis i mean what how was that like sort of like i got a forgiveness thing i better talk to the jews i mean what was no no i'd already talked to everybody else. Yeah. So, no, I... The Jews were the sticking point.

Yeah. You got to get the Jews on board. But, yeah, how do you get the Jews... How do... Well, because... Because it's a spiritual idea. It's a spiritual idea. Okay.

Yeah. And what I realized is a lot of what I was coming from were Christian beliefs and Zen beliefs. Mm-hmm. But I was like, let me talk to this group of rabbis. Mm-hmm. And they were like, no, we don't agree. And so.

With what? Let me think about what it was. Sorry. Well, I know what it ended up being, but I don't think I knew that at the time. I just knew it didn't fit. Okay. What it ended up being, which is what I put into Rising Strong, because then their data made tons of sense. Yeah.

Was the role of grief and forgiveness. And it didn't strike me until one day, actually, I was at church, and the priest that was talking, he said, in order for forgiveness to happen, something has to die. And I was like, well, that's- Within you. Yes. Die, period.

And I was like, well, that seems like a very Christian narrative, like, because Jesus dies, that kind of stuff. But then I went back to the rabbi stuff. I'm still not wrapping my brain around that. Okay, let me get to it so one of the reasons I think forgiveness is so hard

is because we have a pathological fear of loss and grief humans do do you agree with that part well that's the

death terror that's the right okay so in order for forgiveness to happen we normally have to go through a grieving period

so if you were you and I are married and you have an affair and we decide to work it out, there still is a death and a grief of an idea, a promise, something has to be, I mean, something has to die. Of loyalty. Of loyalty, trust. Commitment. Yeah. And so one of the things I really learned about forgiveness is that one of the reasons we hold on so much to rage and resentment and anger is because that's so much easier than grief. I'm never going to forgive my father for who he was because I don't want to grieve what I didn't get.

I'd rather be, I'd rather be like, most of us like our emotion with a little agency, you know, like grief is a hard emotion. It's loss, it's longing, it's hard. And so one of the things I think about forgiveness is we're not, we're much better at causing pain than feeling pain. Sure. And I think for forgiveness to happen, causing pain than feeling pain. Sure.

And I think for forgiveness to happen, we have to feel pain. Right. And I think that gets back to that core existential idea of most people's true irrational inability to accept death, period. I mean, I think that's true. And you can accept it as an intellectual idea. I mean, we all know we're going to die. But the true terror of not being able to incorporate that rationally as part of life, an inevitability that should dictate how you live your life, is lost in consumer culture and I think in general. For sure.

Right? No, I agree. I agree. And I think that's what the rabbis were talking about. The rabbi said, you don't have enough pain in your construct of forgiveness. Interesting. Because the reason I bring that up only is because when you talk about empathy, vulnerability, empathy being the cure, that I just wondered when you sort of assess culture that where we're at right

now like if you really look if we're going to generalize the the sort of right and left you know in the faults of the right and left on political ideas that right now that the the sort of the the rights kind of way of dealing is like, never apologize. Never apologize. Double down if necessary. There's no shame. Even if there is, fuck it. Don't apologize. And then the left, it's becoming never forgive. I think those are scary accurate.

So what I'm asking you in your rubric, if that's the right word, is that how do we facilitate a conversation, even if you're going to disregard or, or cut, cut and run the people that shamelessly don't apologize and seem seemingly are nihilistic and don't give a shit about the pain they cause of the damage they cause and deal with the kind of like,

you know, the self eating feeding frenzy of the vulnerable in cause and deal with the kind of like you know the self-eating feeding frenzy of the vulnerable in their you know in in their need for for righteousness or justice do you know what i mean it just seems that we're having a cultural conversation about wanting people to change wanting men to behave differently wanting white men to behave differently wanting you know men period to behave differently how does that conversation actually happen as opposed to just you know people being made examples of and then you know kind of you know exiled without any avenue for conversation or forgiveness i know it's a this might be this might be the boiling point and

stuff will level out but i'm just wondering how that conversation happens in your point of view i mean i definitely don't have an answer i think i don't i think it's going to happen. I don't think I can take any more talking in group in, in group terms, the right, the left, the white men. I think the only way I see real change happening is on the ground,

connected, real people, um, and not categories. Cause I, I just don't believe anything I see anymore, which is just the weirdest untethered place. I mean, I- What's true, what isn't?

What's true. And like, where does that leave you? Yeah. What is our perception based on? How do we know what we know and what are we reacting to? Because there's so much coming in. There's so much coming in. And so all I can do is deal with the people in front of me.

And I think- I think that's true. It's all I can do is deal with the people in front of me, hold people accountable in a way that I'd want to be held accountable. And look, for me, I think shame is a tool of oppression. Humiliation, berating are tools of hurt. They're not going to be tools of change and justice. I do not think shame is a social justice tool. And if you want to use it as a social justice tool, that's great. I'm not going to

participate in that with you. Because shame doesn't just change the person who is the target of the shame. Shame changes people who use it against other people. So if you want me to, hey, this person did something really shitty, really bad, and let's shame the shit out of them, don't include me. You want to hold that person accountable in a real way? I'm on board. But just FYI, that takes 10x the amount of time and work that shame does. You won't get the rush of feeling good by berating someone right away.

And it's a long process. But I will not participate in using shame as a social justice tool. It's the justice tool of oppression. Yeah. I just won't do it. It's weird how it is coalescing into groups. It is totally coalescing. Yeah.

And they're not acknowledging that. They're just finding strength in the brazenness and sort of controlling fascistic leanings, you know, and using all these tools to sort of annihilate vulnerability. Right. Yeah. And I call it common enemy intimacy. It's this real rush, this like real rush of like counterfeit intimacy. We don't have anything in common except we hate the same people. Right. counterfeit intimacy. We don't have anything in common except we hate the same people.

Right, and then like when you get right down to it, it is about people one-on-one connecting or in small groups. And what did you say about that, about the biological need for people to be connected? Yeah, so we're neurobiologically hardwired. And everything that we're doing, the way we're talking about shit right now with ideological bunkers and groups of people goes against our humanity.

Right. The way that we're, you know, the way that this current administration right now is dehumanizing people. These aren't refugees. They're animals. Like, this, like, you don't have to be a historian to know that the beginning of every freaking genocide in history starts with that rhetoric. Like, what we're doing right now pushes, like, we are wired, hardwired to not rape, kill, maim, dehumanize each other.

In order to do that, we have to turn off pieces of our biology and ourself that are going to be hard to reclaim right and people feed the fire they feed it yeah and technology facilitates it oh totally and you can't blame technology because it's like fire like fire is great like you can keep yourself warmer you can burn down the barn right right but it's not it's not the fire yeah but but the fire can definitely burn down the barn yeah it's just how you use it it it. It can definitely, and it's burning down the barn right now. Yeah, because it's hard to control the fires. Yeah, and I'll tell you what's out of control right now, more than anything, fucking greed. Oh, yeah.

And you're working with CEOs. Lots of them. Do they deal with that? I am pretty picky. I'm at the point in my career where I... So you're like, we're the mindful CEOs that are having a little trouble getting their workplace level.

Yeah, I mean, yeah. And I think there are mindful CEOs. Sure. And I will tell you one thing. I think in some corners of corporate America, they're doing a better job holding people accountable for shitty behavior than political.

Well, yeah, right. Well, that's what it's really all about. Yeah, it's true. a better job holding people accountable for shitty behavior than political well yeah right but well that's what it's really all about yeah yeah it's true i think when you give yourself permission to talk about people as groups yeah you give yourself permission to dehumanize people and make decisions that are not based on looking people in the eye. And I think it's scary. Yeah, and why look people in the eye when you can just text them or box them into a way of thinking or a group

or something different than you? There's so much sadness. There's a lot of sadness. And there's a growing amount of the thing that scares me even more than sadness, despair. Yeah, yeah. Because that leads to hopelessness and that can lead to nihilism and anger. I heard Rob Bell define despair one day as the belief that tomorrow will be just like

today. Yeah. And I was like. Well, where do you stand on hope? I'm a big fan. I'm a fan of hope. You know, here's the thing. I thought before this research that hope was an emotion.

Yeah. But it's not. It's actually a cognitive behavioral process. Sure. That hope has three pieces, pathway, agency, and belief. So hope is I can set a goal. If I can't get to it, I can plan B it or plan C or plan D it and believe in my ability. And we can teach it.

So we need to be teaching hope in schools. We need to teach people agency, goal setting, real things that lead to hope. Hope is not like a gauzy sense of potential. It's a skill set. So you recommend hope, the hope skill set. I'm a high fan. And also, I guess I need to hear you say like you know when you're dealing with what you're dealing with and you're putting into people's heads in a group

situation and people are responding to it emotionally and it seems possible to them to enact what you're saying do you do you obviously for yourself you did but do you recommend look therapy of one kind or another totally you know because like this stuff isn't just something you can go home and make a list to do every day. No. Like you have to deal with your own,

whatever personal trauma or wound or patterns have gotten you to this place where you're disabled to move forward with these things

which are innately human and good and proactive. You need to get it somehow put into a personal context so you can take those steps. Yeah, that's why I talk really openly about being sober. It's why I talk openly about having a therapist. This is not stuff that,

we weren't meant to do it alone. Right, right. You just got to find the right one and not think it's stigmatized. Are you more of like, I assume that, because like you said, something similar to what I i said i used to do a joke about you get older when you go to therapy you know you you know why you're there like you like you walk in you're like i know

there's a lot of things we're not going to be able to unfuck but i got totally but but i got this one thing yeah that we need thing that we need to do. It's important to try to get to that place. Yeah, it is. And there's no, yeah, we need to let go of the stigma. I mean, basically the big challenge of adult life is disarmoring. The stuff that you had to put on to stay safe as a kid no longer serves. It keeps you from growing into your gifts.

Not using your gifts is not benign. It is, it metastasizes. And it's going to happen anyways. You're going to get old if you're lucky. Yeah, if you're,

I mean, best case scenario. You're going to be vulnerable whether you want to be or not. That's it. So you've got to learn how to lean into it. And I think that's,

I think some people can do it without therapy. I definitely could not. My armor was too heavy. It was too generational. I definitely could not. My armor was too heavy. It was too generational. I definitely could not. Well, good for you. Congratulations.

Thanks. And I think you're doing great work and it's very moving and important. And it was a real honor to talk to you. Thank you so much. It was so fun. That was Professor Brene Brown. What a great... I just...

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