WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1013 - Bryan Callen

Episode Date: April 25, 2019

Bryan Callen always wished he could be a tough guy. Maybe it was the influence of his Marine father or maybe it was the snippets of American culture he was taking in as he grew up all over the world. Whatever it was, it caused a crisis of identity that pushed him toward acting and, ultimately, standup comedy. Bryan talks with Marc about where that identity crisis stands today, why he doesn’t buy into the concept of alpha males, and what’s driving him to be a better man today. They also compare notes, in non-spoiler fashion, on being in the Joker movie. This episode is sponsored by Ramy on Hulu, JustCoffee.coop, and SiriusXM. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies what the fuck in the ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf it's unlike other podcasts in that it's mine brian callan is on the show today brian callan the comedian and actor very funny man it's one of those episodes where, you know, some people can make me laugh, but some people can really fucking make me laugh. And Brian Callen definitely has my number in that department. A lot of laughing. There's a lot of Mark laughing in this interview. He's got a special out called Complicated Apes. It's available on iTunes, Amazon Prime, Google Play, and more.

But he's here with me today. I'm thrilled with the feedback from the Brene Brown episode because I was very engaged in that conversation. There was a lot of stuff in it if you listen to it that uh was important to me at this juncture in my life uh something's going on me mark at 55 years old something's happening me mark has had enough of me on some levels i've really fucking had enough of the of the patterns the cycles the circling back around could happen in a week could happen in a year but i have this issue of arriving at the same place the same wall the same chasm the same cliff i just you know i get tired of it and uh i gotta do something because i can't i can't live with um

the way i am on some level this i'm not being morose this isn't a suicide note i'm just uh like i can't take it here's a here's an email that made me feel a little better vulnerability and theatrical clown hey mark i Mark, I love the Brene Brown episode. It's scary how familiar your description of shame and guilt sounded to me. I did want to share with you my experience with embracing vulnerability, which I discovered in a surprising place. Theatrical clown. A couple of years ago, my friends chipped in for a birthday present, a clown workshop at the Barrow Group in New York City. On the first day, our teacher talked about clown in terms of tension between vulnerability and resilience and acceptance of our own ridiculousness, which is a way to be fully present.

I've since went on a bit of a journey and studied clown with Philippe Gallier, I think is how you say his name. Sasha Baron Cohen mentioned him on your podcast and a few other teachers. And currently working on my own theatrical clown show. I don't know if there's a clown scene in L.A. Oh, let me tell you something, pal. There's many clown scenes in L.A. Sadly, none of them are on purpose. There's a lot of unintentional clown scenes on every level in this city, buddy. Anyways, here's a quote that puts it into better words than I could.

Alex, been a regular listener since 2013. Did you ever get the Gogol Bordello record I sent you? I did, thank you. Not sure I liked it, but I got it. Here's the quote. Quote, a clown entering a performance space must experience pleasure at being there, even if that clown is nervous or afraid or unsure. A clown revealing his or her vulnerability must experience pleasure in doing so, even if what he or she reveals feels embarrassing or overwhelming. The clown's pleasure lets the audience know that it is OK, that it is okay for the audience to consider what the clown reveals, that the clown is okay with what he or she reveals, and that it is okay for the audience to be affected, moved by what is revealed, moved, provoked to tears or to laughter. allows for the possibility of laughter.

It allows the audience to laugh at the beauty of the clown's ridiculousness. And in laughing at the clown's ridiculousness, the audience laughs at its own, unquote, Sue Morrison, clown through mask. So look, I've been somewhat of a professional clown for a long time. I've certainly put my vulnerability out there in a way that, quite frankly, in some manifestations has been emotionally unsafe.

I think that the angry clown, I mean, you got your sad clowns, you got your doofus clowns, your kind of physical clowns. I was of the angry clown variety. And I wasn't always sure that what I was saying was funny, but I knew that there was vulnerability. There's a certain amount of vulnerability and anger. Unfortunately, it's destructive. But this is, I like the idea that I used to think about taking a clown course. I was sort of fascinated with the idea that every clown had to design his own makeup and every clown was personal. And when I've seen clown exercises, sometimes they just wear the nose and nothing else. I think that through my own work, I've sort of landed on certain elements of clowning. I definitely think I am a Mark clown and I, but I appreciate that approach

to vulnerability. It makes sense. And, and, uh, and I, you know, I, I, of course on reading it decided that I indeed am a clown. And a lot of times I'm a unintentional clown. I'm in a rough place in a, in a lot of ways. It's just like, I have this fucking, some, some, something inside is just has a grip on my goddamn heart. And I gotta, I gotta like let it go. And I'm not entirely sure how to do it. And, um, it usually reveals itself in my more intimate relationships where I realize that, uh, you know, my vulnerability and my spectrum of vulnerability and my ability to sort of be myself is, is kind of in place, but, but there's a lot of dodging going on. You know, there's a lot of

ways over the years from when I was a kid, you know, that I just learned how to sort of avoid that part of my heart. And I'm very aware of it. And I'm aware of the global climate. I'm aware of the cultural climate. And I'm aware of my own age. And some of the stuff that I talked about with Brene Brown was very, is it prescient?

And just that, like not knowing how much longer I have and not knowing what it really looks like to get it right. But, uh, I think as you get older, if you're hyper self-aware, like I am, I mean, what do I do during the day? It's all pretty self-involved. I don't have children. I have a very sort of chaotic and, um, anxiety ridden inner life, but I have an outer life that is a little more calmer. I'm clearly not incapacitated. I can sort of chaotic and anxiety-ridden inner life. But I have an outer life that is a little more calmer. I'm clearly not incapacitated. I can manage my life to a certain degree.

But I can't seem to not be, you know, somewhat defensive on a very deep level. And it's really annoying because I know it. I don't know if any of you experience this, but I literally behave in a certain way. It's almost some sort of form of like, it's like emotional ALS, you know? And again, I'm not trying to trivialize anybody with a horrible muscular disease, but the idea of somebody with ALS in advanced stages where, you know, their body is in muscles are completely unfunctional, but their brain and their inner life is, you know, completely functional. And they're just sort of trapped in this, you know, non-functioning husk of a body.

And they know that, like, I think I have that in in an emotional way where where i know you know what my feelings are and in what i need to do and in what i desire to do in an open-hearted way but but my exterior husk is this personality i've sort of designed through necessity and through fear to sort of uh protect you know to to, I guess it was to protect, but now I literally find myself behaving in certain ways. And inside I'm like, don't do that. You know, don't say that. Don't act this way. Why are you acting this way? And it's just, it's happening. It's almost dissociative. And, uh, and I'm tired of it and I need to bring those things together. You know, whatever I'm afraid of is long gone I need to bring those things together.

Whatever I'm afraid of is long gone. I really want to work on this stuff, and I've worked through a lot of stuff with you guys, and certainly I have conversations with people, but I've got to get to the core of this shit, so in this second half here, this final quarter, wherever the fuck I'm at in my life, I can at least feel whole and true to myself to a degree, which I am. But see, the thing is I've learned is that you can be true to yourself and still be an asshole. Like, yeah, I truly know

that I'm being an asshole or I truly know that I'm being defensive, right? I am who I am and it's not great. This is who I am. I'm being true to myself. But that deeper idea, the idea of wholeheartedness, and I don't like these buzzwords. I didn't even know the word mindful. I didn't. Mindful is a new word. I used to just call it self-obsessed. Mindful seems to be a more flowing, a kind of less harsh word. It's not self-obsession because it's not as active. So I was mindful times two, which is self-obsessed. And kind of always trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with me. And now I know what it is.

I've danced around it. I've read the books. I've gotten sort of models that, you know, tell me what it is. And I know certain things about myself. But I got to do some other fucking work, man. And I'm going to. I call the new therapist. I'm going.

And I'm not a guy that does that usually. Also, like, it's interesting that I've been getting emails. And, yeah, I had that issue with the Buddhist. And I got another email from a Buddhist. I got the angry Buddhist email from a guy who thought I was very angry. Thought I just was so ignorant about Buddhism. And then I got this one. Buddhists, hilarity, and a guest idea.

Dear Mark, Buddhist hilarity. I write in support of your wonderful fun poking at Buddhists in your podcast with Vincent D'Onofrio. While some may have found it ignorant, I'm no dummy and found it spot on funny. spot on funny. As a practicing Buddhist, I am flummoxed by the tendency of many of my brothers and sisters in compassion to turn into fragile appearing newborn bunnies. It's both false and misleading and therefore deserving of a bit of playful ridicule. I have the same reaction every time I attend many Buddhist functions, i.e. good God, really people. I assure you that many of us Buddhists who practice meditation daily working toward our own enlightenment and the relief of suffering of all living beings

can kick ass aplenty defend ourselves with mortal skill and if necessary eat our bunny brethren who choose to act like helpless little rodents bless their hearts yours and laughing suffering ben again it's interesting that this is the second buddhist uh input i've gotten and it did turn out to be a you know fairly aggressive there at the end he understood the joke uh agreed with the uh the sort of light-hearted ridicule of it but then said if he had to he could uh eat people and um and kill somebody if necessary maybe i do have a misunderstanding of buddhists maybe maybe i really do because the couple of emails i've gotten so far wow it's a cauldron in there man it's a cauldron when you make that decision but i'm not gonna mock it i'm not gonna mock it because i don't want that guy to it's a cauldron in there, man. It's a cauldron when you make that decision.

But I'm not going to mock it. I'm not going to mock it because I don't want that guy to, you know, kill me in a Buddhist way. So look, Brian Cowan and I go back a bit. There was a period there I didn't think, I thought we had a problem, but he didn't seem to think so. But Brian has a stand-up special, Complicated Apes, that's available now on iTunes, Amazon Prime and Google Play and more.

And, you know, we see each other every so often. And I remember him back from back in the day. And and this is me and him, me and Brian Callen doing the thing. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you.

That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. All right, so you can put your one-word cans. Go ahead. I'll just talk to you. Wear them. It's better this way. You think so? Are you going to talk at that level? It's just kind of my brand new. Is this the new thing? Yeah, I'll just whisper.

Who are you? Mickey Rourke. Mickey Rourke from the 90s. John Bernthal talked a little like that too. He keeps it low. Come on, man. Yeah. You got to not reinvent yourself.

Just be a guy. Yeah, you know that. You know what I mean? Actors all want to be tough. It's just very sad. It's like you're not tough. That's just all. You're into making believe and that's okay. I'm the same way.

I've always hated not being a tough guy really i you know it's like uh i compensate for it's why i box and do all this it's very sad i still do i haven't let go of it it's really a terrible thing you're okay you need to you need to get you need to sound like you need to get some things i do i'm glad we're here right out of the gate let's just start start talking. Is it time to unload? Yeah, let's just unload. I'm going to cry into the mic softly. Right away?

Softly. No, dude, you can make it loud. Okay, good. Well, you have a hand gripper, so I can do this in case I want to get some. Dude. It's a hard one. It's not easy. Don't kid yourself.

I got a vice-like grip. Yeah, I know. For an actor. Well, you're like you're an exercise guy. Oh, yeah. Please. Now, I just want to try to figure out. I was trying to remember why I thought we had problems. Do you remember?

Yeah, but I've never felt that way. Somebody said, Mark said that you don't like him. And I went, I've never had that thought in my fucking life. In fact, I remember we spent time together back in the day. We were just kind of hanging out and then, you know, life gets in the way. But I never thought that. I don't know where I got that in my head or why. I have a deep kinship only because you and I knew each other 25 years ago.

I know, dude. And I always thought you were not only painfully funny, but very smart. And you didn't get your success until later in life. Yeah. So when I see somebody who sits in that cut and and never gives up and then and then sees all that success yeah that's a big deal yeah that's that's more than the american dream yeah that takes a lot of grit yeah i think you know yeah it's something i admire i'm thinking like i because like you know i make like you you walk in you ask me if i you

know the guy brendan Shaw, his name, Brendan. Brendan Schaub. Schaub. He's on the podcast, right? Yes. The Fighter and the Kid. Is that it? Yes. That's your podcast.

One of them. Didn't you do another one with D'Elia? The 10-Minute Podcast. But you're out of that. No. And I have mixed mental arts now where I talk to academics. I read books and talk to the smartest people I can find and try to. You and Rogan are doing the sort of, you know, enlightened.

He does it better than I do. The enlightened ex-meatheads. This is exactly right. I want to be a meathead, but I just don't have the bone structure, and nor do I have the brain to be an intellectual. You like being lean. I do. I like being facile.

Facile? No, no. The better way is, I want you to describe me this way. Brian is facile and elastic. Facile and elastic. Now ask me how I do against a regular guy in a fight. What's a regular guy? Just say, hey, Brian, how would you do in a fight?

How would you do in a fight against a regular guy? I'll keep him busy. See? I like saying tough guy things. Is that your character? Yeah, yeah. Keep him busy. Yeah, keep him busy.

But like you said, that he thinks I don't like him because he's a jock. And I don't know that a lot of times that's my main issue. I think it's more like he's a dick. Yes. But I don't think he's a dick because I don't know him. But I think it gets confused. I don't have a fundamental problem with people who do athletics. But if they're assholes, you know you might feel like he might be a bully or a guy who measures strength in only one

way which is he sort of put a lot of thought into this so is it was he's not no he's not he was never no okay brendan is very unique because he's very funny he's a comic now right he wanted to be a comic he just happened to have he was kind of he has the he always says i'm like a dolphin in the body of a great white he just has this impossible body yeah that that does what he tells it to do and he's just a big fella i see him i see him at the store right yeah but all he wanted to be was mark maron or no adam sandler i'm not kidding he wants to be he wants to be jared leto he dresses like jared leto that's a weird uh tri tri triumvirate you just mentioned sandler me or or Jared Leto. You're all the same person.

Is there one frequency? No, no, no. I just lump you all into one. When I see you, I see Leto. Well, we knew. I think you and I. Here's where I think I could track the resentment. Yeah.

If I had one. If I projected onto you. Yeah. I think when we were in New York, i if i'm not mistaken many years ago at it was a luna lounge thing i think that was the probably the first time we met right luna lounge in the 90s yeah and uh i couldn't i like i didn't i don't remember you came out of nowhere and i didn't have any sort of uh way to i didn't know you were a comic and i couldn't decide whether you were or not. Yes.

At that time. Yeah, that makes sense. You would just, come on, I can't remember if you did characters, but it was all very amped up. It was very physical.

You came out of nowhere and I was like, where does this fucking guy come from? And at that time. And I was always super prepared. Oh yeah. And so you guys

would go up there and improvise. You guys were these experienced comics and you were the cool guys. I was so terrified of not being funny that I would prepare to the nth degree. Right.

So if you weren't funny, at least you were animated and engaging. That's right. That guy's trying very hard, and he's moving. I just wanted people to like me, which was very rather pathetic and sad. I never had enough. I remember one time Jeffrey Tambor, who was my teacher, my acting teacher, said, You've got a self-esteem problem. And somebody in the back said, Thank God. In other words, that's why he's funny. time uh jeffrey tambo who was my teacher my acting teacher said you've got a self-esteem problem and

somebody in the back said thank god in other words that's why he's funny and i was like yeah i guess i do you know but i didn't but did you like did you ever you wouldn't you didn't do club comedy in new york did you i started but i didn't do the road i was always doing but like new york and the comic strip those are my home home clubs. Oh, okay. And I was always writing. Yeah. And then I took a long time off because I wanted to be an actor. I remember I was in theater school forever. And I came to LA and I would do two plays a year. And I was at the Beverly Hills Playhouse.

And I was always doing scenes. And I was trying to get jobs. I would sometimes. Well, I got questions about that. But let's go back, though. Where did you come from? I grew up all

over the world. Is that true? Yes. I don't know why I would doubt it. Yeah, I was born, I moved to the United States for the first

time when I was 14. So you were not an American citizen? Well, I was born in the Philippines so I could have chosen to be from the Philippines

or from the United States. Call me crazy, but I decided, I'm not crazy about Duterte, so I decided to keep my American. Duterte. So I decided to, you know, keep my American. He's not your guy? Not my guy. I like to smoke weed once

in a while and I don't feel like getting killed by a vigilante mob supported by the government. There's the guy. Yeah. Don't hurt him. He just wants to be liked. He's funny. I don't want to be thrown in the Bay of Manila because I'm a piece of shit. So I was born in the Philippines. Was your dad in the military? He was a banker, but I believe he probably also worked for the government. Now, ask me what specifically he did. Ask me. Watch this. What did he do for the government?

You keep waking up free every morning, and he'll do what he does. How's that sound, Mark Mary? See that? If I tell you. I've got to take you out. All right? Yeah. By the way, he's retired in Utah, and he's in Park City, and he skis all day.

Oh, he's a Utah guy? Yeah. Well, he's a Wisconsin guy originally. But Philippines, India, Lebanon. How long in India? We were in Calcutta and Bombay for a total of about a year and a half. How old were you? I was a baby.

I was very young. So you have any recollection? No. But you do have your facile with the uh with the accents i am because i grew up around those cultures you were sort of uh sponging it up yes then i moved to lebanon lebanon i remember very well because your dad's a banker for the military well and then pakistan not a hot spot at all and then back to lebanon uh-huh back and forth and then evacuated to greece he was on the run something like that again don't ask too many questions. Watch this.

Move in. The wall's coming down. What's going on? Get him. Take him down. He just hood over your head. And then Saudi Arabia for three years. This sounds fishy. I know it does.

And then I'm 14 and I come to boarding school. Family's still in Saudi Arabia where I go to boarding school in Massachusetts, Northfield, Mount Heron. Now, how much of this do you remember? What parts of the world do you remember having experiences in as a person? Lebanon, from Lebanon on. And where were you in Lebanon? In Beirut.

Now, really? During the thing? During the war. I guess there's always a thing. Well, we were there at the start of the Civil War. And then we were there for six months. Yeah. We used to sleep on the floor.

Really? Because you'd hear machine guns. Were you on a base or in a... No. No, we were there for six months. We used to sleep on the floor. Really? Because you'd hear machine guns. Were you on a base? No, we were civilians. Just had a house and an apartment? And I went back in 1981 and didn't recognize anything from my childhood. Because it had been... It had all been devastated.

It was terrible. Oh, my God. So you're there. That's terrifying. It's traumatic. It's interesting because I'm in therapy for the first time. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

And what's very interesting is that when you have to move every two years or whatever, you have to make friends very quickly. But you also have to say goodbye very quickly. Right. And so you learn how to not necessarily make deep connections or at least always have one foot out, which gets in your way as you get older in your life. Yeah, with your, yeah. Yeah, but it's why I'm a stand-up. It's also why

I think I learned how to ingratiate myself very quickly to people. Now, a lot of that has to be undone because you don't want to be the kind of comic that's only about laughs. You want to try to say something and be specific. And you think you're having success in undoing it, but oddly... I don't know. I think so, but it's taken me, I'm 52 for Christ's sake i know i know you're holding up all right yeah you did shift a little

into old guy a couple years ago i know i'm getting my i'm getting my eyes done i'm just gonna have my face tightened a little bit look at that mark yeah look at that right i mean look at that look at the difference fucking regular guy bang there bang. There's Brian from 1998. I used to watch it. I used to look at you and I'd be like, man, it's a full-time job trying to stay young. Dude, fighting that clock, working out. I still box. It's so sad.

I mean, it's just the whole thing is hilarious. At least I'm not taking testosterone. I know. There are guys who do that. What does that do? They're taking human growth. every guy i know my age doesn't human growth like i think like there i i think i saw somebody who we know who was taking human growth and it looked like he had you know like extra body oh god dude you get your skin looks like a hot dog you're too veiny

i don't want to be i don't want to be 55 and super veiny and dying my hair. I don't want to be that. They're not fooling anybody. But, you know, not unlike, I think, you know, some people who get drastic plastic surgery. We all have this body dysmorphia to where those people, I think they look in the mirror and they're like, oh, yeah. They don't see what we see. Like, that guy's in trouble. That's right. They look in the mirror and go like, I'm holding on.

I'm doing it. This is why even when I exercise, i could never do the bodybuilding i'd love to be more muscular i'd like to i'd like to eat more and be i've always wanted to be a big guy yeah but that would take the kind of effort i'm not willing to do because it's almost like if there's a line out there i might do i might do a little blow but i'm never gonna buy blow because the idea i'm not to make an effort to look that good. Well, how long will you hang out with the guy with the blow? Well, again, I'll promise I'll start a business with him, whatever it takes to get to it. But you won't buy it.

I'm not going to buy it. I've got my standards. You're going to entertain him. It's the same thing with, you know, I'm not going to do concentration curls because it's going to make my arms a little more muscular. And also, but it's uncomfortable to eat that much. All of it. It's all vanity and i think as you get older the idea would be to try to let go of a lot and remain flexible to be elastic elastic elastic and facile but i like

this idea that like because i i mean i too like i think but i didn't grow up like you that when you have to leave quickly and you're there quickly you got to make new friends so like innately you don't create you know attachments that are too deep because it like you that when you have to leave quickly and you're there quickly, you got to make new friends. So like innately, you don't create, you know, attachments that are too deep because it's too painful when you have to go. And you learn that early on. But I find that like, uh,

you know, I don't make the deepest attachments because like, uh, you know, I fall apart when they end, you know, like, you know,

if I, if I like somebody, I get very focused and that's my only friend. Yeah. And you know, you're the guy. Wow. And then like, you know, once you say something that's like judgmental or hurtful, I'm like,

you fuck, what the, you know, like I'm crazy. Where does that come from? I've noticed that from you. I've always seen, I've always thought of you as being a wounded guy. Like a, I've always had a, I've always thought you were great, but you, you always struck me as generally wounded and sad. Yeah. Yeah.

Or, and afraid to make those connections 100 because i always got the sense that you didn't think you were worth being friends with almost you know you're always like it'd be like this it'd be like uh like a deer like if i move too quickly you'll run yeah yeah yeah okay this guy's he's kind of which on ford which by the way is part of your talent and part of your intelligence i think i think wounded is good but i think i've gotten uh how did it happen what is my problem my parents were very self-involved so i kind of had it like you know put my personality together whatever you know i could i kind of cobble it together myself from people who i idolized you know by the way yeah again thank god yeah right but i mean but

because of that i i think that uh i fundamentally't trust people, and I think they're fucking with me. And I think for a lot of years, I always assumed that everyone else had it figured out. So if anyone was approaching me, I'm like, here's a fucking other asshole. It's got it figured out. You ever hear Steven Jobs say, when I figured out that the world was made by people no smarter than myself. Yeah. Although he's a very smart guy. Yeah.

Also dead. Yes, and also dead. But I think that's kind of what happens as you get older, is you realize that nobody knows anything. That's all bullshit. Yeah. And I'd see a title like PhD. You know, for a long time.

Well, they know things. I couldn't audition for men in suits who were in their 50s. Why? Because my father was such a presence, such a giant in my life. What, you were afraid of suits? I was afraid. I generally felt I would revert back to being a little boy. And I was just-

In a suit? If I saw a man in a suit in his 50s, a white man in a suit, and he was like, if I had to audition for a guy, I immediately would freeze up. Really? Isn't that funny? It's traumatizing. Yeah. That you were traumatized by suits, by the power of the suits.

Yes. I thought they were right, and they they were men and I was a boy. Yeah. And I didn't become a man until I was about 33, 34, 35. Really? Yeah, until I was no longer intimidated by anybody in regards to what their fucking title is. But how long in a particular situation, perhaps a torture situation, would it take for you to become a boy again? Well, dude, I meditate and I leave my body.

So that's what you would do? That's exactly. As opposed to being a boy? In the Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, anybody who tells you they've stood up to interrogation hasn't been interrogated properly. I would sing like a canary. Okay, so now you're leaving beirut

yeah and uh and i go to greece but see that's another thing you had to leave quickly because you said you were evacuated we were evacuated what do you mean what happened the war so if you were there what was your dad doing he couldn't get back into the country in fact if i remember into what he was into america overseas yeah and he couldn't get back into the country, in fact, if I remember properly. Into what? He was overseas. Yeah. And he couldn't get back into Lebanon. So then they... I remember my friends, I think they're... Stephen Kittib, his family was evacuated in an armored car. We weren't.

We got in a car and drove off. Because at the time, they weren't going to... Americans were fairly safe. Right. This was a war between the Christians and the Muslims primarily. Yeah. And then that broke into a thousand different factions. Right.

But, you know, we got the hell out of there, went to Greece. How was Greece? Amazing. How long were you there? Amazing. Two and a half years. I'd like to go to Greece. I've never been there.

You've never been to Greece? No. Have you gone back? Athens is amazing, but the islands. Yeah. When you go to Corfu, when you go to those olive orchards. The G-Octopus? Yes. That's so good octopus yes so good they beat it against the rocks yeah to tenderize yeah yeah grill it up forget it a lot of good fish and you go to you go to those those islands and every house is white it's a plaster white plaster they look so pretty to me the gnc the mediterranean forget

it most beautiful women on the planet beautiful people yeah gorgeous people and then you um not the most friendly in some ways they don't even like each other i i generally have a good feeling for for greeks because of the uh restaurants it's it's a great place just like you know when i lived in astoria i was like these are great people they understand fish and greens and it's all very basic olive oil yeah a few different types of feta cheese, but not too many choices. That's right. That's right. Simple stuff.

Olives are good. That Greek pita that's a little fluffier than regular pita. It's not a pocket bread. No. Yeah. My point of reference is usually food. Me too. But with India too, like all these places.

So you're in Greece for two and a half years and you're like, is that where you lost your virginity? Greece? Saudi Arabia. I was 14 years old. Uh-huh. Was it on purpose? Yes. I slid it in.

I remember going, holy cow, this is crazy. How long did that take? I don't think I said holy cow, but in my mind. How long did that take? Very quickly. Very quickly. In Saudi Arabia? I couldn't believe it was happening i almost fainted if i remember i'm for real i almost fainted it was just like what am i doing here yeah i still almost faint generally do you really you seem like a hell of a lover i'm all right all right take it easy you got serious for a second i'm all right that's

what i've heard no listen i've. That's what you guys do. I know what you're doing. You're breaking me down. It's what you fucking... The rumor on the street. That's what you guys do, right? You're like a cheetah with human skins, bro. How do I disassemble the neurotic...

Look, you know, Mr. Alpha fella. I'm not an alpha. I'm not either. I'm an alpha. I'm always shocked when a woman likes me. I've said it in my special. I'm sort of an alpha pussy. Like, yeah, I'm that either I'm alpha I'm always shocked when a woman likes me I've said it in my special I'm sort of an alpha pussy like yeah

I'm that tier of alpha we're the guys saying like look at that fucking you know meathead over there the real alpha well I don't know you've

what you've done is you've made it in an impossible business and done it all on your own yeah but is that do you really think those things hold up

the alpha beta thing no I don't think it's a real thing I hate that talk because it's not a real category it's like And done it all on your own. Yeah, but do you really think those things hold up, the alpha beta thing? No. I don't think it's a real thing. I hate that talk because- It's not a real category. It's like, it ain't right. I talk about this in my special. The new one?

Yeah. The one you're promoting? Yeah. The complicated apes, ladies and gentlemen. I'm the worst self-promoter. Complicated ape. Is that a one-man show? It may as well be.

It's basically an argument for, one of the arguments is the idea that, this idea of alpha and all this is, you know, look, we are smart and we are courageous and we are strong in very limited ways. Everybody's a dumb weak coward, depending on the situation. Sure. And when you know how to navigate a situation, there are plenty of Navy SEALs that would be terrified to do what we do with a mic in front of a bunch of people. Yeah. It just depends on what you have been trained for and what your proclivity is to begin with.

And I think that's why when you- But they're not going to airdrop a bunch of comics into a war zone. Of course not, because that's not our job. When ISIS is coming over the wall, you don't go, where's Merritt and Callan? You don't do that. But in fact, though, what makes our culture interesting and strong is that we represent and we protect all the strengths. Soft strength.

You know, I do this thing about how Stephen Jobs... Elastic. Elastic and facile strengths. Stephen Jobs sucked at CrossFit, I guarantee. Yeah. But he was very strong

in an alpha in what he did. I'm sure. So if you start measuring strength the way the Russians do, all due respect respect which is the strongest man with the biggest gun or the biggest muscles right your culture ironically in your country will be not creative and not very strong this sounds like a hilarious bit it's hilarious guys wait till you get complicated hates bring a notebook it's basically a ted talk guys it's good stuff yeah I'm the worst I'm not going to do

a bunch of jokes I don't want you to I know I like the summarization I'm curious about it I didn't get to see it I'm proud of it I wouldn't tell you

to watch anything other than this you seem like a thoughtful monster I think so I try to be so when you you seem like a

thoughtful narcissist I was trying to be diplomatic please yeah maybe a little so like in greece so you go from greece to saudi arabia yeah and then you lose your virginity immediately and then you leave no not immediately it took me uh took me two years oh yeah i fell in love with my girlfriend then i had to leave immediately and say goodbye to my dog and my girlfriend i never saw them again yeah were. Were they... They were still in Saudi Arabia and then I think she moved to Turkey and my dog probably

wandered the streets and died. No big deal. I was a boy and his dog and then I was in... You had a dog and you just had to leave the dog? Your dad was like,

fuck the dog? Well, you know, it's a sad story, but yes. Really? Yeah. Why did he get you a dog? Well, I got the dog.

I found the dog on the street when I was you know two years before it's terrible yeah it was sad I had a therapist say

you suffered abuse yeah when he heard about my childhood but I don't I reject that what's your mom doing during all this

learning the language immersing herself in the culture and they're wise I love my parents yeah still around but they yeah

but they were doing they were doing their best and did a great job yeah they're both alive and they're together yeah huh isn't that incredible it is incredible so hard so all right so you're in saudi arabia how long two and a half and you're like 15 16 years old yeah two years two and a half yeah that must be no i was 14 i left at 14 that must have been mind-blowing it was all mind-blowing it was all mind-blowing because you were a minority in a strange land. Yeah. I was always, you know, and by the way, in that process, I traveled to communist China,

communist Russia, the Soviet Union at the time. With your dad, the banker. Yep. I went to Yemen. I went to all those countries, Africa, you know, those parts of the world in the 70s and 80s when they were still developing, when they were still communist. So it was a very different experience. And what was your reactions?

Shame, mostly. Oh. Because I was so lucky. Because I was always, I saw real starvation. I saw what leprosy looks like on someone's face. Yeah. I saw what starving children were. I saw all that. Yeah. what leprosy looks like on someone's face yeah i saw what what starving children were i saw that

yeah and i was the kid who was behind a glass pane in an air-conditioned car as an american right that and so you when you see that as a boy it's very difficult to put that into context why did i get lucky why did the math fall in my favor yeah well and your dad's what going to meet diplomat my father was doing a lot of that stuff he was uh but but have you really pressed him about his job no uh yes but he won't tell you yeah no but he was a banker and he did spend a lot of time he knew he i think he met saddam hussein back in the 70s and 80s i mean it's because you know back when he was fun back when saddam was like when he was a good when he was our friend just a you know party guy when he was our buddy. Yeah. Before he got all crazy about those WMDs. That didn't exist.

That's right. Thank you. Are you saying that Iraq was a mistake, sir? Might have been. God damn. Yeah. Yeah. So it was an interesting, all of those things lend themselves to who you become, I suppose.

I guess. But it's sort of a fascinating thing. Are you able to go back? Do you find that you've blocked some of the memories or it's all just active? None of it was traumatic. I don't like to, people have traumatic memories. I had a charmed childhood. Yeah, yeah.

It came with a cost and a price. Yeah. But for the most part, I never wanted for a goddamn thing. And I had such an amazing experience. And do you have siblings? I have a sister. Oh, younger? Yeah. Oh, and she was there too wow yeah she's less sensitive than i am oh yeah she's more a callous callan she's more of a she's more of somebody who who only deals with

what she can see and measure she's not she doesn't she's not a head case like i am and what's her job measure she's not she doesn't she's not a head case like i am and what's her job she uh was a banker and then married a a banker who retired at 40 oh that's nice yeah yeah so they're doing good they're doing just fine they live in bing crosby's old house oh here yeah all right like goldman sachs type of shit that kind of shit four four kids wow it's a lot yeah he manages my money i'm ignorant i just give it to him oh and that works out yeah i don't know anything so you leave saudi arabia in a hurry yeah well i mean uh at least at the time and probably still you couldn't go to high school there if you're a foreigner they didn't have schools for foreigners so you had to go to boarding school so i had a choice between switzerland or the united states but don't they send a lot of their the rich uh the upper class there send a lot of their kids

to boarding schools right yeah so Yes, they do. Yeah. So Switzerland or the United States, those were your options. And you're an American. You're identifying as American. Always identified as American. Yeah. Because I wanted to be. Yeah. Well, you were, right? Yeah. So you go to boarding school. Yeah. Where? Field Mount Hermon.

Where's that? Massachusetts for four years. And was that one of those... I became a wrestler, you guys. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. And was that one of those- That's where I became a wrestler, you guys. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And was that one of those exclusive aristocracy, these guys are going to do things, boarding schools? No, I didn't get into those schools. I didn't get into Andover and Exeter.

I didn't have the grades, sir. Yeah. I went to a place called Northfield Mount Hermon. At the time, 55% of the kids there were on scholarship. And we even had refugees. We had kids who were older who went to school. So it was almost like a college. It was very diverse.

Right. Really cool. Yeah. That's a well-rounded life you've had. I think so. So what did you do there? You wrestled? Yeah, I wrestled.

I rolled around on the mat. Jesus Christ. That was a life-changing experience. That's why I'll keep you busy if you come at me. I'll meet you halfway, Mark. I'm just saying. You know that, though, bro. You know that. I mean, I obsess you. I see openings when I look at you, bro. I see openings is all I'm trying to say. And I'm going to teach you how to close those openings down when you take my workshop. You know what I mean? Yeah. A man's got to know how to grapple. You know,

if I get underhooks on you, you're going for a fucking ride. You know that. You know that. I always bring it down to that. I got that, I got a lot of soda in my voice right now.

Yeah. So, you got a pocket knife. I had a guy who knows about knives. Yeah. And he had a knife and he goes,

he goes, I can open you up. If I open you up, I start cutting your arms. You lose hydraulics in eight seconds. You lose hydraulics in eight seconds. He's a, he's a guy who teaches knife fighting. Why do I know him? Cause my friend was writing a book and I met him.

I had to come meet this guy and he's a, he's a knife expert. You lose hydraulics. You lose hydraulics in eight seconds what does that he cuts your tendons i guess i guess you you can't move your arms i don't know i was like oh you saw a knife you can kill me in eight seconds with a knife that's that's very true oh so like but do you hang out with these kind of guys all the time i don't i don't but i do like them something about them i like being I like I enjoy being included in a Spartans

conversation so I have friends that were sealed team six guys and I I've always wanted to be that guy partially

yeah and so when I get to hang out with them and talk like a man you know throw another surf on the fire you know

that kind of stuff stakes I love playing that character but you're not that guy no I wish I'm unfortunately you keep, that kind of stuff. Stakes! I love playing that character. But you're not that guy? No, I wish I was. But you keep saying that. You've got to be some version of it.

No, look, I need sleep. I get colds easily, and I get cold easily. I'm not buying it. You seem like you could probably... I'll keep you busy. Yeah. We've already established I'll keep you busy. We've established I'll meet you halfway, Mark.

But I'm not going to make it in the SEAL teams. It would never happen. I'd get cold too easily. Something would break. But you didn't want to. Yeah, but even if I wanted to, I did sports long enough to know how tough I'm not. Really? Yeah.

So you weren't a good wrestler? I was a good wrestler. Yeah. I was a good wrestler. So what sport was it that taught you that you were not so tough uh uh well i i also fought i also like competed in full contact taekwondo in high school i know in college and all right so you go to high school you're wrestling yeah and no i go to college to wrestle okay but you know acting in high school uh no some acting in college was that

a big like where that was a like a secret but did you not tell your jock friends that you were well i didn't have jock friends no no i didn't have jock friends ever no i never i didn't watch remember i didn't grow up with american sports uh-huh i didn't watch football i didn't grow up watching baseball so i didn't know how to have Sports Illustrated conversations. In fact, I remember when I was getting on a plane and I saw two jockey guys with baseball hats. And they were reading Sports Illustrated and they were talking. And I knew I was going to sit next to them. And I said to the flight attendant, I said, hey, is there any other seat I can't sit next to those guys?

Because I'm going to have to talk to sports and I don't know sports and I'm going to have to fake it and I don't have the energy right now. Did they? I mean,

that's a true story. Did she give you another seat? She did. Yeah? She got me in. Oh, really? You switched out with somebody?

I switched out. So you didn't have to do that thing? I just, yeah, I said my back or something. You can't do that now?

Well, I can talk sports but I'm going to do, I'm going to be general with you. Uh-huh. What do you mean? I can talk MMA, mixed martial arts i'm gonna do i'm gonna be general with you uh-huh what do you mean i can talk mma mixed martial arts yeah right i like boxing and mixed i like the fight game because you can't fake so okay so you're you you go to you're on a wrestling scholarship no i went to college i i went to college to wrestle okay i was gonna wrestle in college yeah hurt my back i had gone to Dan Gable's wrestling camp in Iowa.

Should I know that? It's a nightmare. Dan Gable was an Olympian who won a gold medal and didn't have a point scored against him. But every wrestling kid knows that camp. Every wrestling kid knows that Dan Gable and that camp. Yeah. And it was the craziest thing I'd ever been to. And I went, I'm 17.

I go, this is what D1 wrestling is. I came back my senior year. I beat everybody but I think one person. But I was like, if that's what D1 wrestling is. I came back my senior year. I beat everybody but I think one person. But I was like, if that's what D1 wrestling is, sucking weight and working that hard, I don't like it enough. So that's where you realized it. Yeah, and then I wanted to learn how to

again, I wanted to know how to do karate and martial arts. And you went to the camp in high school one summer? Or two summers? One summer. Yeah. And you were good though. I guess so. but you made a choice better than I should have been you're like fuck this

yeah but you stayed in the game and you kept in more elastic professions I'll bear down if I have to yeah right but you wanted to

open it up a little I want well so I went to I don't know the lingo no I love the way you're talking I love the way you're talking you wanted to open it up we're going to have

you're going to take my lingo class my workshop. It's not a class. But I had my first experience. I grew up thinking that a man was a prototype. My father was a prototype. Marine, 6'4", 250. Oh, he's a Marine.

Oh, yeah. A badass. Yeah. And I grew up not being that. Yeah. And thinking that's what a man was. So that was your struggle. There you go.

And for the first time, I was 23. Yeah. And my wonderful acting teacher, Richard Pinter, from the Neighborhood Playhouse, I went to audition. I was terrified. New York? Yeah. I want to be an actor.

Terrified. And he was a giant. He had this giant mustache. He was a gay man with a big mustache. Yeah. How'd that make you feel? Well, we dated for a while. And I realized I was straight. Oh, good. I had no choice. Nice. giant mustache he was a gay man with a big mustache yeah how'd that make you feel uh well we dated for a while and i realized i was straight oh good i had no choice nice no he had this

mustache he was a macho guy but he was the first guy to kind of say hey you're emotional you're not a dog you're not a bear you're a cat and that's okay because that's a form of masculinity stop trying to be a tough guy masculine masculine men can be funny and sensitive and they can cry. And I was always a- Did you cry then? I was- Did you cry in that moment? I've always been emotional.

In that moment, I hope you cried. Yes. I spent my whole life trying to be something else. I'm really coming clean on this podcast. Are you? Nobody listens though, right? No, not at all. Not at all.

No, but that's very interesting because it seems like that struggle is what's made you, is your whole personality. I think so. Really. Like, you know who you are, but what you want to be is still sort of overbearing. Of course. Of course. I'd have to trust my, well, who I really am is hard to face. Sure.

Well, you'd probably still be with the guy with the big mustache. I'd be scrubbing his floor and wearing that blonde wig as he calls me his Dutch boy. Whatever you want. Well, it was his 20 bucks and I didn't help with my rent. You're a cat. Why do you got to bring up these traumatic memories? You're a cat. I'm a cat.

He called me kitten. There's no shame in being a cat, Brian. All right, finally. Well, I guess it started with Mark Maron when he gave me permission to be a kitten so but okay but when okay so i'm just trying to track this so you go for the wrestling but you start doing theater when does that like really when do you like because that must have been some sort of big decision i think so the big decision was deciding to actually try to be an actor i was working at uh i worked at leh Brothers. Where'd you go? Where'd you go to college? American University. Where's that? Oh, in DC? Okay. History major. Yeah. And then I talked my way into a job at Lehman Brothers. I then, I then had this crisis after

about 18 months. I woke up from a nap. As a banker, you're working as a banker? I sure was. And I woke up with this crisis. I said, if I don't try to be an actor i think i'm going to become a very small person i could feel myself becoming small and petty and i'm all in a suit yeah i was terrible i didn't like myself but you've done some plays already like you got the bug somewhere i had done plays in college like what like big parts like i did a play called as is yeah i played a gay yeah a gay you know guy it was and that was that was kind of shocking and and very weird for me as a straight kid yeah i mean i was like i met i met a guy who had aids this is 1988 yeah and uh he was dying and i knew he was gonna die that was a terrifying disease for us back then sure um

and so uh but still pretty terrifying of course it is but but but it was such a death sentence back yeah yeah it was like it was just and you and i both saw people i'm sure i'm you know you watch them die slowly and very undignified very difficult but so uh but then i did some other plays and then i i quit i said this is this is this is silly i need to come to my senses and be this, that, and the other thing. Be your dad. I heard a woman talking. I think it was on NPR somewhere.

And she was dying of breast cancer. And she knew she was going to die. And somebody said to her, what would you do differently? And she said, I wouldn't do anything because it made sense. And I said, fuck, man do anything because it made sense. And I said, fuck man, I'm being way too sensible. And this is another weird.

It's a hell of a quote. You know what I mean? It's so funny. You don't know who said that. I don't know who said that. I wouldn't do anything. I heard Joe Rogan say that later on to me.

And I never forgot it because I didn't tell him that I had heard it before. But I remember thinking to myself, I heard that quote too. I didn't want to ruin it because it was such a sacred thing for him. I think he told me it. Well, I'm just surprised you're both listening to NPR. That's nice.

Yeah, I don't know what he were here. Yes, yes. We're intellectuals, dude. We read. Yeah, so then I heard Springsteen sing Johnny 99 on that live album. Oh, yeah. And I went. And it was a confluence of that, watching this guy named Robert De Niro do a movie called Raging Bull.

I didn't know anything about him or Springsteen. I was way too old to not know who those guys were. When this was in college. I didn't grow up in this country. It was right after college. And I said, I have to do something in that world. I have to do something in that world. I have to. Those seminal moments and experiences are just what kind of, what drives you to desperation.

Yeah. A crisis in who do I want to be and where do I want to go. Again, get complicated. I talk about this stuff. I'm really killing the audience. Yeah. No, but that would be. So that was the moment though, that's the crisis. You're doing your Lehman Brothers saying and you just saw the portal

where what your life would look like yes and you're like fuck it i can't i i didn't care enough about money i didn't want my life at the end i didn't want my sort of the culmination of my life to be a number yeah that didn't make sense to me yeah yeah no it's it feels uh i never thought that much about money no i know you didn't yeah i mean me. Yeah. Yeah. No, it feels, I never thought that much about money. No, I know you didn't. Yeah. I mean, it's weird. I mean, I should have maybe, but I didn't.

Well, what was, I was never strategic either. I wasn't good at business. Like I wasn't good at- No, terrible. Until we- Making friends that way or- We built a business out of this thing, but neither me nor my producer, my business partner, we didn't really know.

We weren't entrepreneurs. Yeah. But, you know, we knew we had something. We weren't entrepreneurs. But we knew we had something and no one really knew how to make money at it. So we kind of built it with the medium itself as time went on. But it was never my drive. No. You're one of the best interviewers. You know, Dov Davidoff was saying that about you the other day. Where's he at? He said he's in New York. But he said, Marin is one of the best interviewers, period.

That's nice of him to say. It's also true, but you know. Yeah, no, it's nice, but I, you know,

Dove and I have a tense relationship at times, and it's nice. Well, Dove has a tense relationship with himself. Yeah.

One of my favorite people on the planet, but yeah. Dove went to therapy and the therapist looked at him and said, do you think you have a right to exist? And he goes, not really.

I used to bring him on stage at this store. It was so mean. I'd call him the thinking man's moron. I like it. No, I like him. I do like him. And I know he struggles. And I'm glad that he said a nice thing about me

alright so you have this crisis this dark night of the soul that involved Springsteen De Niro and a random thing you heard on NPR

that's right and the random thing I heard and guys that was the crucible that's where I made my choice it was dark man that's where I resisted

the temptation to be ordinary and now I'm extraordinary I broke myself from the cross unlike Christ. I mended my side. Yeah, there you go.

And my stigmata. And you went right out into the street and started doing a monologue. I picked up the jawbone of an ass, and I slew the Romans. What did you do? Did you go and quit your job? I went and joined the neighborhood playhouse. I studied with Sandy Meisner for six weeks. The real guy.

He had a voice box. Yeah. He had a voice box. He had a voice box. He had a voice box. He had a voice box. He six weeks the real voice he had a voice box yeah from smoking and so you were with meisner the actual meisner of the meisner that's where i get my talent yeah that's where i get my craft and then i came to when i came to la i got mad tv but wait what about meisner how long were you there i was there for two years not with sandy meisner only six weeks studied with him but i was at his school for for two years and that was the that was the first training really that was the first training and that in meisner is sort of like an offshoot of the method uh he wasn't um as method in a lot of ways he was about listening and answering he was that mammoth school of acting

which by the way i think is limited mammoth schoolet school is the Atlantic school where the idea of Mamet is stick to the lines and the character will come or not. Yeah, Mamet simplifies it by saying you come to a scene and an actor, you want something from the other person. Right. And acting is doing and get what you want. I like simplification like that,

but like anything else, it becomes a little bit more than that. Meisner was just listening and repeating and... Meisner was essentially a pound of... An ounce of behavior is worth a pound of words,

these sayings, but really it was about being honest. What is your honest impulse? When you really listen and answer and you're present, you'll give an honest performance. I think the problem with that is it emphasized dueling, not loving, and scenes, most scenes are love scenes. I think most scenes in every movie is a love scene of one kind or another.

Oh, yeah? I do. I think everything is a love scene of one kind or another oh yeah i do i think i think everything is is is a love scene even that that famous scene in quentin tarantino uh in in true romance where walk-in's gonna kill oh yeah sure well that feels that's a love scene yeah i can't it just is yeah yeah he kisses him in the end yeah yeah and then blows his fucking brains out yeah kiss of death it's like michael kissed fr, too. It's not good. Yeah. I get that feeling every time Joe hugs me.

He's a thick kid. Give me a hug. I'm like, oh, am I going down? What's going to happen now? He might just take you. I was picked up. A guy named Shane Carwin, heavyweight in the UFC, picked me up and started to squeeze me. I'm a grown man.

And I said, I'm going to die. I couldn't breathe. And I started tapping. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to die. I couldn't breathe and I started tapping. Yeah. And he said, that's a quarter of my strength. That's just the hello? He just wanted to let me know

where I stood in the pecking order. See, that world, I don't know about that. I need you to get comfortable with it. You're going to join a jujitsu class. We're going to roll around.

You'll get staph infection. Don't worry about it. I mean, I have, I'm a relatively athletic guy, but the competition part of it, I don't need. Yeah. Oh, I'm not a competitive guy. I'm not going to play you in tennis and keep score.

Yeah. I don't give a shit. If it comes to golf, I'm going to cheat. But if it's two of you guys, you know, jumping around, kicking and punching. Yeah. Someone's going down. No. around kicking and punching yeah someone's going down no when you box uh even when i box it's um i'm i get no i don't get any satisfaction from actually hitting you really hard and hurting you

i like the idea that i can yeah i like working on patterns and stuff like that i like getting better at something that's impossible to get good at so it's about you yeah right yeah it's a it's it but is that is that you being afraid of competition you You're just accepting that you're not going to win? Well, boxing is always terrifying. When I get a text from my trainer who says, bring your headgear and your mouthpiece, you're sparring today, I get nervous. Yeah.

Because I don't know what's going to happen. Have you broke your nose? Yes, many times. But that was from Taekwondo. Really? Yeah. But so wait, where did the Taekwondo, where did the- That was college.

I decided not to wrestle and decided I wanted to learn how to kick and punch. And you know how to do that? I mean, I have too many friends that are pro fighters. Yeah. But I mean, I play guitar. The answer is to an extent, yeah. I'm okay at guitar. Yeah, okay.

So you're pretty good at that. So maybe, you know. I mean, I'm an old man now, but, you know. You did all right? At one point, I thought I competed, and I was okay. Did it help you with acting? No. Nothing?

I don't think so. Because you have a different disposition. There's a communication necessary, a physical communication in these things. I tell you what. I was playing golf with a guy who's a professional. He said to me, you have great body awareness. I was playing golf with a guy who's a professional. He said to me, you have great body awareness.

If I tell you to do something, you do it. Because you know how to tell your body to do that. So he said, you're a good athlete in that sense. And you're elastic. I'll take that. You're elastic. Yes. I know how to communicate with my body.

But if I could have done it all over again, rather than, I never felt safe. So that's why I wrestled and did Taekwondo. I didn't feel safe. What dowondo. I didn't feel safe. What do you mean? I didn't feel safe in the world. In general? Yeah, and I couldn't bear to be vulnerable.

Did you? So I should have spent the time I spent in wrestling and in Taekwondo and all that other stuff and jujitsu and maybe even boxing. I should have spent that time learning how to dance and sing. Sure. And play an instrument. And cry a little bit. Well, I can have spent that time learning how to dance and sing. Sure. And play an instrument. And cry a little bit. Well, I can cry, dude. You haven't seen my drama reel, but I'll show it to you after this.

Well, I know you can maybe cry on purpose, but I mean, I get what you're saying, but you still track all that inability to be vulnerable back to the, you know, I got to go, you know, running out of countries. I think so. And also maybe your dad was not the big emoter my father looked at emotion as a weakness sir he was a an irish marine so you're not crying at the fucking you're not crying in the household sir all right don't dress too fancy and don't be crying all right because you're a boy and you're gonna i'm gonna forge you into a man so we're not gonna get emotional because

emotions and things like therapy are for the weak yeah that was it that's right you're talking about a 1950s male yeah fucking marine right the fuck out of here yeah in fact my mother said she'd never seen him cry huh and and the only time he cried was when his best friend was killed in a plane crash in the Marines. Oh. He probably cried like this at the funeral. Kind of stood there and went, And then he was done. And that's just a story you heard.

Fuck, and that's just a story. You don't even know if it's true. Probably bit down on his belt. And then grew a mustache in that moment. So vulnerability was tricky yeah yeah it still is why are you opening me up like a fucking wound over here jesus marin because because that's what we have together it's like i always looked at you as a wounded i know that i am i don't i don't think i ever registered maybe like maybe i should have no you thought of me as a little bit tougher than I am.

I didn't think of you as sad. I mean, you know, wounded. I don't think I'm sad. I'm not a sad guy. And I'm just not. Yeah, yeah. A lot of that also has to do with the fact that- You're a song and dance man.

Yeah. I'm the Justin Bieber. I'm the Justin Timberlake slash Bieber of comedy. You do very orchestrated bits, a lot of moving parts. All I'm going to say is if I had applied myself, I could have danced and sung with the best of them. Isn't that funny, that line? If I just applied myself. I love that.

Well, I could have played pro, but I chose to go to insurance instead. Fuck off. Okay, so Meisner, you take that in in but it seems like you really absorbed it like you know at that time you were like you know there there are different approaches to what i want to do and i'm going to approach it like i would a sport and learn how to fucking do this yes i wanted to be a yes i wanted to be a good actor i wanted but you were like you were open to that i mean whether you're vulnerable or not you were like you know like what what it what you know what what's the uh how do I get the tools?

You know, what's the game? Yes. And in LA, I learned really how to act under Jeffrey Tambor and a guy named Milton Gonzalez, now deceased. Their tutelage where- What was that school? The Beverly Hills Playhouse. Was that the culty one?

Yes. That was in Going Clear. So a lot of Scientology involved. See, like that was also hanging over you a little bit in my mind. Like, you know, because you're one of those guys years ago where he's like, you know, Callan's in the cult acting class. No, I've never been in Scientology. No, I know.

But like for some reason that school had a reputation. They left me alone. But I'm not accusing you. I'm just saying I want you to explain to me. So what happened was that was the teacher, the teachers, Jeffrey and Milton,

were both Scientologists. They both left the church. And when they left the church, all the Scientologists in the class left the class. Oh, so you were there when that happened? Yes.

So it was a little more focused attention from the teachers, I guess. You know, you never really, there were words used in the class about Scientology, like you're having PTSD or PTS, which means a potential trouble source. So there's somebody in your life who's being suppressive.

And some of that stuff was very helpful, frankly. I mean, it's not like all of Scientology from what I- No, no, no. Look, I know there's people I respect as writers who were able to glean things from the system that helped them. And I think that there was a time when people didn't get all in where they could go for a year and come out with some tools. But was the sense that before the class or the school unscientologized that it was some sort of recruiting arm?

I saw that happen. I saw that happen. I saw that happen. I saw actors who were struggling, and I saw people say, you know, you could use some. Clear. You could, yeah, there's something going on with you. Why are you sick? And I saw certain people join the church that way.

Do they stay in? I don't know, but they stopped acting. I remember that. Oh, really? Yeah, I never heard from them again. But you stayed there at the school? join the church that way do they stay in i don't know but they stopped acting i remember that oh really yeah i never heard from them again but you've stayed there i stayed because i was i was under i got into the saturday class with milton gonzalez when burr reynolds would come by and neil simon would be there and all these anthony hopkins would come i mean i'm talking about real actors that would come by and do scenes doris roberts yeah these people would hall of famers

would do scenes in my class yeah and sometimes you'd get to do scenes with them gene reynolds creator of mash yeah would write wrote a scene that i was in yeah come on i mean that's you know you can't argue with that shit and and were you always somebody who like was proficient at you know broad characters like i mean like because like i mean you seem to have the nuts and bolts in place, but you're very quick to kind of do a character. Yeah. And you can do that. I can't really do that.

I don't have... To me, it's too... You just haven't... First of all, that's not true. I can't surrender to it. Well, no, no, no, because you haven't had anybody... You haven't been put in a position

where you had to try and learn how to do it. Right. That's all. And it's very uncomfortable. Right. But the reason I did that was because, frankly, I wasn't getting a job by walking into the room.

I'm a medium white guy. Yeah. There's nothing about me physically where you're going to go, let's get the guy with brown hair and brown eyes who's 5'11", 170. Yeah. I'm sorry. And I knew that very quickly. I kind of went, I went on an audition when I was a young man

for cute guys in suits and I wore a suit and then I got there and I saw what Hollywood cute guys were I started laughing yeah yeah these are the best

cute guys I've ever fucking seen this is what a cute guy is I'm so I'm a fucking spore I'm a mushroom with eyes next to these guys right

so I said I gotta be funny Patty Jenkins who was my girlfriend for a long time who wrote directed um wonder woman and wrote and directed monster yeah she was the one who said hey jackass you're trying to be robert de niro you're trying to be brooding you're not you're funny yeah stand up comedy yeah do that oh really yes she's the one who got me into stand-up i forgot that we were you were a comic there for a minute. So when did you start doing that?

In New York? In New York, I would do those shows that you were always the star of. Right. That's where you started, right? Yeah. Okay. Because that's where I met you, but you had already been acting for a while. Yes.

Like you'd already been working a little bit. I'd been doing plays. I think I met you actually after Mad TV. That's right. Really? Yeah, I think. What year was that? No, that's not true.

That's not true. Because in fact, Dave Becky, who I always credit for giving me my start. You were one of his guys? Dave Becky. Nope. Dave Becky saw a tape of mine. Yeah. And Dave Becky said, you're talented.

I want you to come down and do Rebar. Right. So Rebar was the pre-Luna. Yes. Yep. That was when Amy Poehler and Uprler and upright citizens would do like was that weird place it wasn't even a good place it was that back room there were no chairs yeah and there was a very uncomfortable stool type of situation yep and everybody sat on the floor yeah yeah 19 19 what 1994 maybe yeah 93 94 and uh i fucking uh i remember i had my first little small victories there i was i i'd get up and i made people laugh you were doing characters i wasn't i was doing um

very manic weird shit yeah i would do like more performance art right it worked yeah it would work yeah and uh and i i was like i can't believe I'm doing this or I get to do this. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then a manager saw me, put me up for MADtv. Becky? I got MAD. No. Becky got you.

Ken Trush. Ken Trush, yeah. And he saw me and a show called MADtv came along. Yeah, yeah. And I auditioned and I got the job. And you were in the first crew of MADtv? I was. Original cast member. Yeah. Not ready got the job. And you were in the first crew of Mad TV? I was. Original cast member.

Yeah. Not ready for the job, not experienced, but didn't really belong. And you had to do characters. Yeah. But you had been doing a little of that. Again,

this is where desperation comes in. Sure. You know, the audition required five characters. I was so afraid. I was so genuinely terrified. I wasn't ever going to work and make it.

Yeah. That, you know, when I went in for that audition, I've never wanted anything that bad in my life. To the point where

if I didn't get it, I would have died because I couldn't go back to Hoboken, New Jersey and be a temp at Goldman Sachs. I just couldn't do it anymore. Is that what you were doing?

Yes. I just couldn't do it. So you'd fallen back into the banking world somehow? Well, I was just temping. I was doing whatever I could and they liked me so i stayed there for a little i was you know making coffee so who was in that crew the original crew i can't remember orlando jones nicole sullivan phil lamar who's got a huge voiceover career and so talented yeah um arty lang yeah our dear arty lang i know i worry about him. I don't know what happened, but...

It keeps happening. I know. And Debra Wilson. Oh, yeah. Debra Wilson. Yeah. I remember Debra Wilson. Yeah.

From the Village Gate, from that improv crew. Yeah. Yeah. That piggy story that Artie talks about when we did Babe Watch, he was dressed like a pig and he was doing below. I threatened his Coke dealer that day. You did? Why? To get away from him? I was young and i was a hothead back then my friend yeah

i said some nasty things to him to the coke dealer yeah i was ready to fight him why because i thought he was taking my friend away from me and but i was right it wasn't my place yeah it wasn't my place did you get into a lot of real fights? Nope. I've been in them, but no. No? No, I was always too cautious. But yeah, I mean, I've been in, I suppose, for lack of a better word, I've been in those, you know, when I was young. You're not going to take any shit.

I made them halfway. Kept a couple guys busy, Mark. You know what I mean? I mean, if I have to open up on you, I mean, I see openings. It's a free country. A man can't take a couple openings. You're going to come at me with your arms down. I see it.

For me, you call yourself a man. I see a target. That's all. Just come correct, Mark. If you're going to come at me, come correct because I'm going to meet you. Who is that guy? I don't know. I just love that.

I love that. It's like my friend who asked a Delta Force guy, this elite commander, did you ever kill anybody? And he goes, never stopped to look, brother. I want to be that guy. You still want to be that guy. Of course I want to be that guy. But I've seen you do a lot of little parts in movies where you're different types of people.

You've played Middle Eastern people. You've played Middle Eastern people. You've played Israeli. Sure. The same thing. Yeah, Middle Eastern, Israeli. I go from Italian to Israeli porn star.

It's very- Greek. Have you done a Greek guy? It's all the same fucking, it's all the same character. When I did Hangover, I did that character. I did Hangover 2

and I came with all these different characters. You know, maybe he's spanning himself like Ariana Huffington and he talks like this. Yeah. They're like, no, do Eddie. Do the same character. We'll just put you in a wig and darken your skin.

I'm like, no, but they'll know. He's like, Todd Phillips is like, you're not that important. They're not going to know. Just do what I tell you. I was like, all right, fuck it. I just work with him. I did the Joker.

I did too. That's right, you did the Joker. Did Joaquin say anything to you? Did he say hi or bye? I think at one point, you know, when he drifted out of character for a second he went marin wow that was about it but then it was interesting because in the scene he decided you know in that scene with the three of us that he was not going to acknowledge me at all but it was a good choice no 100 the guy's a real method actor. He's a great

actor. And in five days, I didn't... I don't think he looked at me once. And that's fine. Because whatever he has to do to get to that point is the most important thing. He only talked to Todd. Yeah. Right. That's right. And look, that kind of discipline, I can't do that.

I'm not that kind of actor. I don't want to be that guy. I'm not that guy. That's a very special human being. But aren't you happy that you have enough experience? Because there's part of you when you're on those sets. I'm so grateful because it's happened to me as old as I am. It's the first time I'm doing that. But you really realize this is a professional environment.

You're not going to sit there like, I'm just going to wait for my window to say hi to connect. I'm going to connect with Joaquin. I don't give a fuck. By the way, I can't do what you can do. You can't do what I can do. Right. Why are you yelling at me now? No, because now I'm going low again, bro.

Now I'm going low. That's where it starts. Joaquin, if there's a problem, I'm elastic. You come at me. I'm going low again. That's where it starts. Joaquin, if there's a problem. Yeah, yeah. I'm elastic. You come at me. I'm facile. You're going to meet him halfway?

And I'll meet you halfway, bro. I'll meet you more than halfway, okay? So, but you do, your regular gig now is sort of the Goldbergs, yeah? So I have a, yes, but I got, they gave me my own show, me and Tim Meadows. Oh, really? Yeah, and my wonderful co-stars. Oh, Schooled? Yeah.

And that has not been on yet? It's 13 episodes. We're doing very well in the ratings. I hear good things. We'll see what happens. Really? And it's your show? Yeah.

Look, it only took me 25 years to make it in Hollywood. I'm trying to work on this new show. You've been working a long time. I know, but come on. To have my own show, you know. To be the star of a a long time. I know, but come on. To have my own show. To be the star of a show is good. It's a lot of responsibility. I'm used to being the other guy.

Now I'm on my feet all day. Do you think about it differently? Oh, it's just like, yeah, you're old and tiring. It's less waiting. There's less waiting. There's more money, but you spend what you make. Do you? In a way.

Well, you have kids. I got kids. How make. Yeah. Do you? In a way. Well, you have kids. I got kids. How many? Two. How old? Seven and ten. So you have a lot of money going in. It's an interesting thing with those because they're human beings.

Their happiness is more important than your own in many ways. That's a very weird place to be. Well, no. I think that's a responsible way to be. Well, yeah. It definitely is. It's a great thing, but it's also scary man i don't like loving something that much why are you afraid i mean jesus christ yeah yeah i can't imagine it i've

said it before but i'm worried about the kids i didn't have in my mind like if i i know oh yeah no you would be a neurotic what time is it. It's hard not to be that way. Yeah. Because the idea that something would happen to them is, you know. Devastating. Oh my God. You can't even think about it. Yeah.

And what about you? How have you changed? For me, it's about keeping my bench press and my squat where it was when I was 30. And that's pretty much

the only thing I give a fuck about. And keeping my hand speed up. You know that though. You know that. Sure, buddy. You know that. Sure, bud. You know that. But also my kicks.

I got to go low and high. And a lot of guys at my age stop kicking to the head. That's why I stretch. That's why stretching is so important. And you and I are going to do some stretching after this podcast. I'm looking forward to it. That was the only reason I had you on. Do you have a hot room here?

Do you have a hot room? Of course. I just got to go turn on the faucet. Good, good. Get that steam. I'll stretch you out and we'll see what happens you got a mustache the night is still young is it big enough my mustache yeah and i brought some blow blow echo and echo i know you're sober but listen

yeah listen one time this one time this one time bro well you'll focus we'll do another podcast we're back. Hey, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marin did blow for the first time in 20 years. I'm going to get him going. It's going to be great. But, you know, it seems like you're proactive and you're trying to be a better man.

It's all you can do. Is it? It's all you can do. There's a Zen poet who wrote a poem, book, really, that said one continuous mistake, and life is essentially that. Life is you know this idea that you're presented with the situation you gotta kind of improvise your way out of it you're gonna make mistakes sure right so in that sense you got to be forgiving when you do i think so i think uh you know it's it's it's good not to beat the

shit out of yourself all the time yeah i just recently started doing that not doing it yeah i always it's so funny you say that i always and i didn't even realize i did it i just always was comparing myself to fucking you know michelangelo like i'm not suffering enough and i'm lazy and finally i was like hey i'm doing i'm trying really hard man, most of the time. Right. And I am deeply flawed, but I mean, sometimes you do. You got to leave yourself the fuck alone, man. It's a little easier as you get older because certain things stop mattering. That's right. But I assume, I mean, I can only imagine living up,

growing up with a father who's fundamentally a Marine, you know, you're going to be kind of hard on yourself. I think so. Because like, if you're not like him, that little him inside your brain is just going to live there. What are you doing? Are you ready for a life and death situation, right? And this becomes this whole weird thing.

Like, what happens when somebody closes in on me? If I got to protect my family from a gang wielding machetes. Those are questions. I think about that shit all the time. First time I ever shot a deer, it was my friend Steve Rinella. I think he, or maybe it was Ryan Callen. I think they said something like, that was a good shot. Have you shot before?

I said, no. But I've been doing that in my mind my whole life.'ve been up on a hill defending my territory from all that for the barbarians are you a hunter i i'm not a hunter but i have hunted a number of times on the show meat eater with joe rogan turkey deer alaska montana napa valley but turkey i can get that but didn't you did you feel bad for the deer? Yes. I love venison. I love hunting, mainly because you're miserable and you bond. Yeah.

But killing the animal, I will say that in my kills, I've dropped the animal immediately. Yeah. And that's because I think I'm so afraid I'm going to hurt it. So I want it to die right away. But I don't like killing the animal. I like the differentiation between hurt and kill. Yeah. Yeah. I'll wing you. Yeah. As a warning.

But only if you're a man. You understand? I'll wing you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that is. I heard a great football player. Who was it? Darryl Dawkins or Brian Dawkins from Philadelphia? You're asking the wrong guy.

He was a safety for the Eagles and a Dawkins, Brian Dawkins from Philadelphia, the wide receiver. You're asking the wrong guy. Okay. He was a safety for the Eagles and a great Hall of Fame player. And he said, well, I don't swear. He said, you don't swear? He goes, no, I don't swear. I'm a righteous man. I'm a religious man. I don't swear.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to put my medicine on you. I might have to put some medicine on you. I never got that. So when he puts his medicine on, I'll keep you honest. That's the other thing I wish I'd said. I'll put some medicine on you i never got that so when he puts his medicine on now i'll keep you honest that's that's the other thing i wish i'd said i'll put my man now doesn't now i'm a good guy mark you know i'm a good guy i do yeah now you come at me you come at me a little too too strongly yeah i'll put my medicine on you understand i do all right that's all i'm saying i put my medicine on you. Okay. Yeah. All right.

So we've established that I can talk tough. Yeah, I think we have. But I also think that there's another layer. Hopefully. No, no. I think that you can talk tough and then claim that you're just talking tough. But I think if it came down to brass tacks, you're probably pretty tough. I work hard at least having an answer i think this whole sort of like hey i'm just a cat yeah yeah it's i think that's a layer of

bullshit you're you know you know i can tuck my chin and throw down yeah yeah yeah and by the way i can pull back and make you miss i make you pay for extended i appreciate the charm yeah yeah but at the end of the day you're looking at my. You're looking at the glint in my eye. And you know. Nothing but trouble. You know that you're going to have it. You won. You won.

You're going to have your hands full, bro. Do me a favor. Pack a lunch. If you're coming at me, at least pack a lunch. Have the respect to know that you're going to be, your hands are going to be full. Keep your hands full. I'm going to keep your hands full. We've established, we know that you're going to be, your hands are going to be full. Keep your hands full. I'm going to keep your hands full. We've established, we know that, right?

You remember, how much were you influenced by Rick Shapiro? I only met Rick a couple of times. You never saw him work in New York, the sort of manic character work? Saw him a couple of times, yeah. I mean, it's, you know. Incredible. Yeah, there's a commitment there.

Yeah. All right, well, I think that we had a couple of moments. I think so too, buddy. I think this has been a huge success it has you feel good about it do we like to be podcast i enjoy talking to you at least we had a chance to connect yeah yeah and everything's good now yeah we like each other and um you know i'll call you have brendan shop on i think you'd like it oh yeah yeah let me Yeah. Let me do a little research. Yeah, he'll never- Does he throw down? Yeah, he'll never-

He would never- He might shove you around a little bit. Oh, yeah? No, he would never do that. He doesn't even like to talk about fighting. No? No. Was he a boxer?

He was a heavyweight in the UFC. He won Golden Gloves, but he was a real fighter. It's just so funny. That's like, this is the fundamental issue. It's like, you know, I know you guys,

I know you, I know you're out there doing your thing. Yeah. I'm an old man. I'm doing my thing. Yeah. You know, like,

you know, I know, like I have a point of view that, you know, is what it is, you know, and I, you know,

like when I follow Rogan, or if he follows me, you know, we're both doing fine, but there's definitely a difference. Like, you know, that's know like when i follow rogan or if he follows me you know we're both doing fine but there's definitely a difference like you know that's that numbness yeah and i know that like on some level you know we we've we've been fighting for centuries and that's very funny yes for one way or another yeah but but i'm i'm okay with it but you should come over to our side for a second so here's what we should do you and most part. But you should come over to our side for a second. So here's what we should do.

And I'm dead serious. You should come to Gloveworks. Yeah, but that means I'm the guy that dies by accident. No, that's not true. You come to Gloveworks. We get in the ring. Listen. You and Rogan? No, no. You and I. Look at me. My buddy Wayne McCulloch, world champion, silver medalist in the Olympics. I'm 55.

Doesn't matter. I'm 52. He's a wonderful man. We put on gloves. Just we move around. I throw some punches at you. Yeah. I show you how to keep your hands up. You get tired. You feel like you did something.

You learn a little something about boxing, where to stand, and we have a good time. A couple of morons throwing down, but all of a sudden you're in the arena. You're in the ring. Yeah. And somebody goes,

Mark, you ever been in a ring? You ever thrown hands? And you go, Yeah. A couple of times. A times a couple times and then they go well where with who and you go don't worry about it yeah just just just come correct when you're around me mind your p's and q's all right and if you come at me i'm gonna meet you halfway well yeah i'll meet you halfway i'll keep keep you busy. You know what I mean? Bottom line is Mark Maron's not hearing a fucking peep. Yeah.

He's not hearing a peep out of most people. That's what I think. That's all I hear is peeps. Yeah. I like that too. My buddy said that to me in New York. This giant guy was playing basketball. Yeah.

And I was like, Jesus. And he goes, oh, he's not hearing a peep out of us. He's not hearing fucking peep one out of us. Because he was just in his own thing? Well, no. He'll beat you up. He's not hearing it. Well out of us. He's not hearing fucking peep one out of us. Could he just in his own thing? Well, no, he'll beat you up. He's not hearing it. What, you have a complaint? Yeah.

Nah, he'll just swat you out of the way like a bear. Know that there are men that can do that. I know, I know. Yeah, but I'm going to bring you into my... All right, okay. I'll come, yeah, I'll put the gloves on and do the dance. Anytime you want. You'll love it.

Okay. You're just, you think it's not for you no no i've i've hit i've hit a thing no no but you're gonna hit a person now we're gonna move around okay no but i like i had a trainer once that had me hitting the gloves you know showed me how to like i don't like the way you're punching well no i don't need your elbows it's a little more relaxed there you go and keep the guard up right like one here sort of you don't have to turn it over that much but i'm not mad i like the rings the rings would cut me Relax. There you go. Keep the guard up, right? Like one here? Sort of. Like that? Sort of. You don't have to turn it over that much, but I like the rings.

The rings would cut me up. That's what they're for, man. I'd lose hydraulics in six seconds with those rings. With those rings. All right, buddy. Let's go stretch. All right, buddy. You're the best. Thanks.

Yeah, funny, right? That was fun. Cracking me up. I think we're different types of dudes, but he didn't seem to think so on some level. But I think we are. Yeah, funny, right? That was fun. Cracking me up. I think we're different types of dudes, but he didn't seem to think so on some level. But I think we are. It's not a bad thing.

It's just different, right? Brian's special Complicated Apes is now available on iTunes, Amazon Prime, Google Play, and wherever else you can find it. Hey, I'll start branching out more on the guitar in a little bit. Right now, it just seems limited to my echo box and one of two guitars in the amp because of my slightly compromised recording situation up here. But I will play some.

I will play something familiar because I've probably played it before. ДИНАМИЧНАЯ МУЗЫКА Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

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