WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1017 - Anna Konkle & Maya Erskine

Episode Date: May 9, 2019

Anna Konkle and Maya Erskine, co-creators and stars of the middle school-based comedy PEN15, met and bonded in college. But they knew their most authentic collaboration would come from playing themselves as adolescents, which started them on a six-year journey to put together their show. Maya and Anna talk with Marc about playing their 13-year-old selves again, what it was like to redo traumatic moments of their youth, and why all the other actors are age-appropriate teens. Also, Anna explains what she learned from Marc when she worked with him and Maya details the process that led to the casting of her real mom as her TV mom. This episode is sponsored by ZipRecruiter and SiriusXM. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters it's mark maron how's it going this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm not at home i am uh i'll probably be home i'll be on the way home when you listen to this it i'm not at home i am uh i'll probably be home i'll be on the way home when you listen to this but i'm not at home now i've been in new york city for a few days as some of you know maybe you know i don't know i checked in on instagram which is a rare event for me i don't really like the pressure of thinking about either tweeting or doing Instagram posts. And I've successfully detached from both of them to the point where I'm like, oh yeah, I should do that occasionally to check in with the folks that would like to hear from me. And I'm not that proficient at it.

But anyway, so some of you saw the check-in. I'll try to do more of that. I have been here for a few days, and it has been pretty fun. I'm trying to just sort of – I don't know that some of you know. When you're self-employed, you never really know when work is done. So you kind of always work, and most of what you do is work-related. And obviously, those of you who have been following the show know that I'm a little out of sorts and a little sort of existentially challenged with my own ability to engage with life in a way that maybe I could find some joy or fun in it as opposed to just relief. But I don't know. It's touch and go, but I'm trying. And I've been here and I've been, I just had, I came here to New York because initially there was some glow promotional event that got moved, but I had scheduled some interviews

because I can, there are certain people I can't do in LA because they just don't come to LA that much. I don't see them. And I decided just to come and just do the interviews, the few interviews I had to do. By the way, Maya Erskine and Anna Conkle are on the show today. Their show, Pen15, is one of the most, it's a funny show. It's a deep show. And I found it very moving. And I don't know if you've watched it. think it's like it's on hulu uh the first season you can stream it on hulu uh it's these two actresses these two women who i i talked

to you know who are actually playing i believe seventh seventh graders or eighth graders seventh graders they're playing them with other seventh graders so they're they're they're they're portraying seventh graders yeah and they're you graders in their 30s. But it's incredible how quickly the device doesn't affect you and how beautiful what happens and how funny and how sort of human it all is. It's really an interesting and funny show. And when I watched it, I had worked with Anna Conkle on Marin. She's on the last season of Marin. She plays the woman who has my baby.

And I liked her then. I thought she was great as an actress. But they created this really unique, fun, but moving show, Pen15. So they're here. I mean, they're not here, but I'm going to talk to them. So I'm doing a few interviews here in but I'm going to talk to them. So I'm doing a few interviews here in New York, and it's weird. I think I've kind of worn out my back when I at the beginning of this thing, when I used to do interviews on the road, it was because it was hard to get people on the show sometimes or they didn't know what the show was or they're only in New York. And there was an urgency to it. Like, I got we gotta get this person and I still have that to a degree but I find now when I do these things that on the road

that I'm like it's so much better in my house it's so much better in my studio you know there's a comfort factor I have I'm not worried about other things I'm in a an environment that is conducive and and to to what I do and I you know so i i just i had an interview yesterday where i had some technical problems and i'm here with a guy that you know you all know and we're in the room and we're doing the thing and then the the the recorder all of a sudden i notice it's not recording and i gotta you know stop myself from completely spinning out with a with a big actor you know who's sitting there and i'm like oh fuck i got you i mean you've you've heard me spin out and you know and then i got to kind of manage that and you know he was a good

sport about it but it made me feel like a fucking doofus so i don't i don't i really don't need any new reasons to feel like a doofus it worked out but, but, but, uh, but like, I, I, I, I'm just expressing this to you because it was a feeling I was working through. So after that, you know, I'd kind of, after I felt like a doofus and I had to manage this situation and it all worked out, uh, but it was, it was sort of trying. And then after that, I kind of tumbled down into some sort of chasm of self about, you know, my life. And obviously, look, I'm not complaining. Everything's going good. But there was just something about that moment

that triggered a bunch of other insecurities. And then I was kind of spiraling and, you know, in the sadness that I'm dealing with in, you know, in my life a little bit. And then I was just here. I was here in the room doing that. And that's, you know, and then I've always realized this, but you got to talk to your friends, man.

I mean, go out and talk to your friends. I mean, I, look, I've told you on this show that, uh, a lot of times these conversations I have with people I don't know, or the deepest conversations that, you know, I have and they're full and they're satisfying, but then the person goes away. And there's something good about that. But like your friends, go spend time with your friends if you have them. Don't just text them.

And I'm not great at it. I've only got a few friends. But that night when that happened, I was kind of spinning and I'd made plans with my buddy Sam Lipsight. A few things fell into place. Me and Brendan were supposed to go to see a show, All My Sons, the Arthur Miller revival that my buddy Tracy Letts is in and Annette Benning,

both of who've been on the show. Tracy and I have become friends. So I texted him to see if I could go to the show and his wife set me up with some tickets because he doesn't like to know when people he knows are in the room. And Brendan had some issues with his plumbing, so he couldn't go. So I called my friend Sam, who I was going to see on Wednesday night, but he said he could do Tuesday night.

So I went out with Sam. We went to Alex Guarnicelli's restaurant. This is one good thing about doing this show over the years is I don't use the relationships that much, and I don't like to use people. But I will give people a heads up who I have had on the show, who I like. Like if I'm in New York and I want to eat a good dinner, I'll text Alex Guarnicelli and I'll say like, I want to go to, I want to go to your restaurant. You're going to be there. I'd like to say hi. And she's like, no, but you can go, go. And then it's not like they give me, I still got to pay and everything, but it's nice to say hi.

But when you do go to a chef's restaurant, you will get sent a few good dishes that you didn't expect were coming. And that if you're me, kind of when they arrive at the table, you go like, oh, fuck. How are we going to? That looks amazing. I had something that she calls veal bacon last night. It was just a slab of fatty veal meat, deeply cooked and salted with a sauce on it. And me and Lipsight took one bite each of it and we looked at each other and almost started crying. And then we ate a fucking double T-bone and I can't even, all I know is it's like, it's the day after that happened. And I don't think I need to eat today I'm packed with meat so anyways my point

being Sam and I talked we hung out you know I kind of let go of like whatever I was spiraling about you know it was great to see my friend and then we go see the play which was phenomenal this is the other thing I'm talking about new things is like I don't know I'm not a theater nerd I don't know I haven't read a lot of Arthur Miller I know who he is I know what he's written I've not a theater nerd. I don't know. I haven't read a lot of Arthur Miller. I know who he is. I know what he's written. I've seen a couple of the big plays in one sense or another, either in a film production or live, but I never saw this one, All My Sons. And Tracy's in it, and it's an older play, and it's about some World War II-related story. But I don't know the play, and I don't know how it ends.

So I'm coming to it with completely new eyes. It might as well come out yesterday. It might as well have just been written. I mean, I can see that it was dated, but I was completely engaged to the point where when we went backstage to say hi to Tracy and Annette, you know, they were all sort of freaked out because there was a phone in the theater

that apparently was ringing for six minutes and I didn't even fucking notice it because i was immersed in the story and that was great tracy was great the cast was great it's so exciting to go to theater and we go backstage we see them and then tracy wants to get something to eat so me and sam and tracy we go out to this place joe allen's for for food i see michael showalter there he's with a crew of people. And it was like, this is my community. This is my life. And these are my friends. And we had a nice chat. And I had a good time. I guess that's what I'm trying to tell you. I had a good time. I've had a good time. Okay. I'm saying it out loud. I, you know, there was some darkness, but there was some fun and I had it. Uh-oh. And then I'm at the

hotel and there's all these fans out front of somebody, just mostly teenage girls it looked like. And they were waiting and I realized it's the Met Ball. Apparently some people are staying at this hotel. So there were people out there of all kinds, just waiting to look at people for like two days. And then all of a sudden I run into Bob Saget at the hotel and I'm like, I think there's a lot of people out there waiting to see you. So be careful when you go outside. Of course that wasn't true. It's Bob Saget. I think he's downstairs right now. Yeah. So I sat there, smoked a cigar in front of the hotel and just kind of watched as a few people got into their cars for the met ball

i did not know who they were uh i they they seemed to be dressed uh they were wearing theme parks almost i just don't like it was just like what's happening there this is an entire this person is is uh dressed up as a carnival of some kind and But it was exciting, and they were excited. But literally, I'm just that old man now where I'm like, who is that? Should I know that person? Is that somebody? That's always the great old person question. Is that somebody?

That must be somebody. Look at that. They're wearing a building. That must be somebody. So I might go see another play tonight. I'm not going to eat any more meat. And right now I'm going to share with you this lovely talk I had with Maya Erskine and Anna Conkle about how they came up with their fun and moving show, Pen15.

You can stream on Hulu. It's got picked up for a second season and, uh, and kind of found out where they come from their, their journey together. So this is, uh, me talking to Maya and Anna, uh, back in my house. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need,

and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavell

to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and C's apply. Maya Erskine? Erskine. Erskine. Yeah. It looks like Erskine. It does. It does. I don't fault you. Yeah. I'm Marin. You can't imagine what I've got in my whole life. Marong.

Marong, Marin, Moron, but I think they know what they're doing. I think they know it's not my name. Anna Conkle. Yeah. So I work with you on my show. You played the woman who had my baby. I did.

Yeah, and that was good. It was, you were so nice to me. Oh, that last day of shooting was rough. Oh my God. Remember, you were sick. Oh, that's right. shooting was rough. Oh my God. Remember? You were sick. Oh, that's right. It was terrible. Oh, I blocked that out. You blacked out and blocked it out. I blacked out and blocked it out. It was like such a horrible day.

And there was a baby. Yeah. Then the first baby didn't look like us. We had to do a racist thing. Right. Oh no. What happened? I'll tell you. Well, yeah. We got a baby because when you shoot with babies, you got to have two of them. Yeah.

And we saw pictures, and this was a baby that, like, I'm Jewish, and we were like, you know, this baby can play. So we hired the baby, and we shot one scene with the baby, and I'm looking at him like, you know, that baby's black, and that is an African-American baby. baby's black and they were just that is a an african-american baby and i'm like you know unless we really change what's you know the i i understand it could be an art thing right you don't make not but that's not the show we're doing so i had to say to the showrunners i'm like what what are you guys thinking we got we have to get a new baby yeah it's so we had right so you got a new baby i think it'd be more racist if you kept that baby and just.

Yeah. I don't know if it was racist. I think we. Yeah. I don't think it's racist. We were misled. Yes. I believe.

I'd like to think that the. Yeah. That we didn't get what we thought we were getting. Right. And then the next baby was all right. The next baby was a nice baby. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you hold the baby? I held the baby. That's great. Held the baby. And then we had a scene at the end. That last scene came out really good. But we're not here to talk about my show, are we?

No, but I was very happy to be on it. And that was the first time also seeing someone making their own work and then being in their own work. And that was very inspiring. Really? I helped? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So that's nice. We talked about it a lot. No, you didn't. No, we did. Really? Yeah. So that's nice. We talked about it a lot. No, you didn't. No, we did. Really? Yeah. She was really impressed by how you were able to manage running the show, writing it, going inside, acting, directing.

Like, it was just something that felt then achievable. And also, like, I was watching your show, and there are details in the show where I'm like, why is this like this? It has to be real like you know because like in my show there's definitely a lot of real stuff not so much the season you're in because that's speculative but like the the the details about your parents and that kind of stuff i'm like this isn't made up how can this be made up yeah i mean your dad is a is he he's a real drummer yeah. But he's not a loser drummer.

No, yeah. He was actually in Steely Dan. I mean, Dan. Yeah, yeah. He was in Steely Dan, but it was his idea to do a Steely Dan cover band to make it a little less. Oh, really? Yeah. But I mean, it's like very specific that, you know, they're playing at a pool at a hotel.

Right, right. at a pool at a hotel. So it's not. Right. So like, if I have one sort of weird kind of like question about that character, it's like, how is he not more bitter? Yeah. I think we could dig in more to that at some point. And we also thought it was funny

having him be like, you know, if you want to rise to my level, like you really need to. And for a small town in my town, personally, like art was not celebrated. Yeah. So that seemed realistic that he could be touring.

He could be a small town celebrity. Of course, yeah. Of course he could be touring. But it's usually like, I like that he's a decent guy because usually the touring sort of low level musician, that's a sordid story. It is. It's not.

That's true. Right. But this guy seems like a well-adjusted story. It is. It's not. That's true. But this guy seems like a well-adjusted guy. He's happy with his work and he's a pretty good dad. He's not coming home like hungover and fucked up and not wanting to talk to anybody.

It's nice. Season two. Season two, I think we go into the reality of that because I think it's funny to see him have this... We talked about him being bitter. Yeah, and it sort of comes out or

maybe we didn't end up shooting that but we wanted to shoot like a scene where he uh kind of takes it out on me and sort of reveals that he's not as happy with where his career but he was hard on you right he was yeah but not yeah and i think that comes from having a bit of a chip on your shoulder too sure you know what i mean you didn't play it all out no right yeah we didn't go deeper it's not He was, yeah. But I think that comes from having a bit of a chip on your shoulder, too. Sure. You know what I mean? But you didn't play it all out. No, we didn't go deeper into it.

Because you do keep it around the kids. And I think that the idea, like when somebody told me, I saw those billboards for it. Do you call it Pen15? Yes. Because my girlfriend's calling it penis. Great. That's fine.

But call it penis, penis. Yeah. Technically Pen15, but we like it all. But like, was that something you wrote in high school? I mean, what? Oh, yeah. Like Pen15 is a thing? Yes. Really? In middle school, you know, the cool kids would be like,

hey, do you want to join my club? Pen15. And you'd be like, yeah, of course. All right. Then they'd take a Sharpie and write Pen15 on your hand and then you'd have penis on your hand all day. And you'd have to explain that to your parents. Yeah.

No, it's Pen15. Right. I'm part of a club, you guys. Well, that was the weird thing is I'd see the billboards, and I was like, what the fuck is that? Right. What is that show? I know.

It's not clear. We named it many years ago as an ode to the rejects, and then the show kind of, it's taken six years to make it, so it's the show kind of it's taken six years to make it so it's so it's like changed and yeah six years six years yeah and the premise the conceit is that you're in seventh grade yes but you're you're just you're surrounded by real seventh graders and you guys are just you you're in your 30s right yes yeah and like at first i was like how's that gonna work but then like within five minutes, you're like, that's, you know, they're just seven You forgot sometimes?

No. I don't know. The wrinkles, you're just like they. No, no. Well, that stuff doesn't matter because like the challenge of playing the emotions of those of that age, it must be pretty satisfying in the actor way. Because like you, Maya's character, like literally makes me uncomfortable. Like to the point where I'm uncomfortable. I'm so sorry.

He just looked to the side, not at Maya. In a good way. Because I think that you sort of, because your challenges are different. Yours are primarily parental and hers are like this weird sexual drive and menstrual problems. and menstrual problems. Right. But like the way you play the sort of anger about it and the confusion about it,

it's like you really sort of go there and it's sort of, it must have been, if it was awkward for me, it must have been a little awkward for you. I think it was awkward at first because we filmed the masturbation scenes first week.

So we shot out of order and here I am rubbing it out in front of like 10 crew guys just like what the fuck is this shit? In a bowl cut and a mustache. Yeah, they had no idea, you know, and I'm rubbing like my flat nipples with my little ponies. Like it was just an absurd thing to do and to go there. there but um it is actually incredibly cathartic and easy to go to those emotions because i didn't realize that those are still so raw for me like from that really time yeah so this was you're actually working through some real trauma in a way yeah someone called it a traumity which i which

we love really yeah well i mean but but the same did you what was your your parent's situation was it like that yeah but that's more the vanilla to be honest more the vanilla version of it that mother character

is not that vanilla I mean she's daunting she's Melora does such a good job but she's less based on my mom Walters

she's like great she's amazing she's great she's in all the like PT Anderson no I know like every like I remember seeing her and being like, where?

How did they get her? Well, no, no. It's just like, where's she been? Because I know they always work, but she's such a specific and great actress that I always like seeing her. And you're always like, why isn't she in everything? Right. I know.

Because she's very intense. She's so good. She's really good. Yeah. You do a good impression of her. Oh, you do? And it's just sort of like hey guys how do you want so how should i do the same so wait so it's not quite like your mom she's different my mom was more kind of it we're i think we would go there if we got another season but more into crystals and reiki and really really

and and meditating and and what i think's so funny funny about her as a person was like she was the most stressed out meditator. Like I didn't know anyone more insane. Right. And I love her deeply and she's- But desperate for some sort of spiritual relief. And honest and authentic with it. It wasn't bullshit.

It was like she really is one of the most spiritually deep people that I know. Yeah. And she, and that's, I think that's kind of common. Yeah. And she like,

was short circuiting all, you know, she worked a lot of jobs. She was, she was busy. She had a lot going on. She wasn't happy in the relationship with my dad,

but they were married for 20 years and they tried to, but it was like, was he on the, he probably was on the couch like half of sweeping on the couch so that's a real thing yeah so you had to wake up and your dad was sweeping on the couch yeah and i remember my friends coming over and like being like oh and i told you this million times like oh my god i gotta get the sheets i gotta fold the sheets and then

like i remember like reorganizing the family photos so that people didn't suspect yeah i don't know i was very crazy yeah well that well that's like i mean i think that's a real thing and it so that people didn't suspect. Yeah. I don't know. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's like, I mean, I think that's a real thing and it must be some of the benefit of doing this show is to sort of really look at those situations and understand kind of in your heart the pressures that were put on you at that age. Yeah. Because it's like, how is it not traumatic on some level

and how does it not really dictate the rest of your life? Right. That you're just trying to manage chaos at home or you're trying to manage not being able to talk about things. And then you look at the life you're living now and you're like, oh, my God, that's why I do that. Right. Yes. Totally. And I think, you know, like I've been to so much therapy and how much that time comes up.

And that was something that Maya and I always. Really? Oh, yeah. And you were one of the first people, women, that would talk about masturbating at a party as funny and what you were ashamed of at the same time. But that was my way to process through it. And it was the same for Anna. She would talk about divorce and make jokes about it.

And that was the way to cut through the dark pain of just making fun of it. Right, but so many times in which I think is good about the relationship you guys have in the show is that you're still sort of the weirdos in a way. Like, cause if you're that kind of person that deals with it like that, where you just bring it up and then you got a room full of kids going like, what?

Like, I think so much about the show that makes it work because you guys are specifically connected and and slightly off from the rest of the the standard um junior high hierarchy but to everybody like i'll tell you man man, the kids are great. Yeah, they are. No, that guy, the sax player. Brendan. Brady Allen is the actor. He's a gem. He really, you know, like he holds the scene. Like when he's sitting on the couch, you're like, this guy's in charge.

Yes. That's exactly what we want from him. He's in charge. When he nods confidently after Anna goes off to, after he hooks up with Anna, he's like, yep. Just like. And he's so like, you know, physically and he was, he was, I definitely know the type of guy that he was at that age.

He was sort of like, like a kind of proud nerd. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like a cocky nerd. Right. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like a cocky nerd. Right, right, yeah. And also like a man. Like a 50-year-old man. Like a 50-year-old man.

And a 13-year-old's body. And he kind of, he was a little different from his character, but he would drink like extra large Red Bull every morning. And he was only allowed one. The real guy? The real kid. And he would like level out, you know, just be so calm during the shooting. After the Red Bull?

After pounding a Red Bull. And we're like, great. A Ritalin effect? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But where'd you grow up? Massachusetts and Vermont. Mostly Massachusetts.

Like what town? Scituate. South of Boston. Scituate. Yeah, I know Scituate. Really? Why? I had a troubled friend from Scituate. Oh, my God. South of Boston. Scituate. Yeah, I know Scituate. Yeah, really? Why? I had a troubled friend from Scituate.

Oh, well. The Dumfys. Arthur Dumfy. Oh, wow. You don't know him. Do you know him? No. Well, my third grade teacher was a Dumfy.

That's the thing. There's generations that, no, people don't leave. Yeah, I spent a lot of time in New England. Like, I know. For him? No, because I went to college in Boston. I went back and started my comedy career there. So I toured all over doing one-nighters all over.

That's right. I remember you. In that weird area. So like how old were you when your parents got divorced? I was 14 when they told me and then they lived in the same house. They like split up the house for two years while they were going to court. They split the house up? We loved it. How many kids just me oh really well i have a half brother but he grew up

at his dad's house he's 11 years older so when i was old enough to you know he was in a different state yeah which dad how'd that work the same mom your mom had another husband had another husband before your dad before my dad so she's dad. So she's a searcher. She's a searcher. What does that mean? She's searching for love. She is. Well, I mean the spiritual quest and then there's a couple of husbands.

That's the thing. The thing that I respect about her and she's given to me, which now I go to therapy for, is like always questioning. Yeah, yeah. Always like. Why be confident or secure when you're not right? Is it right? Yeah, exactly.

Right. Right. But then always trying to find your rightness. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks, mom. But the, but the nice part about it is she's so courageous in her quest for, she like lives

her life. You know, she's not bored. She's in her mid seventies. She's always, she just told me the other day, she's like bored. She's in her mid-70s. She's always, she just told me the other day, she's like, I have a writing partner.

Uh-huh. Really? Yeah, yeah. Oh no, now she's going to make a show about daughters. Oh my God. You're going to be producing a show. I'm up for it.

Her show would be fucking crazy. I would love it. I would love it too. But, so, okay, where'd you grow up? I grew up here in LA.

Oh really? Yeah, I know. The whole time? The whole time. And where'd you grow up? I grew up here in LA. Oh, really? Yeah, I know. The whole time? The whole time. And I lived in New York for school, but then- We met in New York. We met in New York, but I grew up here. And your mom's Japanese?

My mom's Japanese. And your dad's a drummer. My dad's a drummer from Jersey. That's his ethnicity, drummer. Exactly, drummer, jazz drummer. And that's her real mom in the show? Yeah, that's my real mom. Really?

Yes. That's crazy who walks in while she's masturbating and says like oh i smell yams had she acted before no i mean i had put her in my student films when i would you know direct little videos but she was not an actress why did you decide to do that seems like a big risk i know aziz did it and people do it, but it worked out. It was a risk. I mean, well, we first filmed a presentation with Lonely Island.

That was like 15 minutes. Yeah, and we had maybe five people come in to audition for the mom, and none of them were from Japan. And it was really important to me to have someone who was from Japan not put on an accent. And I was like, well, let's just try it, Mom. And so I filmed an audition tape with her, like 25 tapes later.

I sent one of them, and everyone was like, yeah, okay, let's try it. She was game? And she did great. It was surprising. Is she having a good time? She loves it. Yeah, she's really into it.

So how different is she from the character? She's pretty different. I feel like she's a milder version of herself. And the angry side. Yeah, like I think she was scarier sometimes to me. But then she was also really tender. But there's moments where I'm like, whoa, that is you, mom. That's, you know, the part where she's cutting my hair and talking to me, you know, like,

it's okay. You know, that felt like my mom. Is that a real thing, the haircut? She's cut my hair before, but never placed a bowl onto my head. I would never let that happen. But you had a haircut that looked similarly like, you know. I looked like a boy. Yeah, I was called a boy all the time, like young sir.

I've said this a lot. But I think it's also interesting that there, difference between how a Japanese household works and then the kids being fundamentally kind of like just American teenagers. Right. But your mother's sensibility is very specific and traditional in a way. Yeah. And I think that I've not seen that before. Yeah. And I hadn't seen that either, really.

I hadn't seen my childhood reflected in a way that I'm like, because I have this really Japanese mom and then an American dad, but he was on tour a lot. So I was very influenced by the Japanese culture, but then wanting to climb on to American, you know. So your dad was like, is he Jewish? He's not. But I lied and said I was Jewish in middle school because I went to a primarily Jewish school and I really wanted to be. People believe me because I just said my dad is Jewish, so I would lie and say I'm half Jewish,

but he's not. He's agnostic. No, but he wasn't brought up in any way? He wasn't, and neither was my mom. I mean, Buddhist, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that whole episode with the weird shrine to your grandfather. I mean, but is that a real thing?

That is. That's like cultural. I mean, in every Japanese home, you'd see a shrine of ancestors. Really? And every time you go into someone's home, they light incense, and you just pray to them. Really? Yeah. It's become just a cultural tradition.

And your dad was in Steely Dan? He was, yeah. I mean, they're not really a band, but he played on some of their records? He played, yeah. He played and toured with them. He's been in Weather Report. Real jazz head.

He's a jazz musician, yeah. Wait, which album is the Steely Dan records? Because I've had some sort of weird catharsis with Steely Dan. I was very against them for all of my life. Oh, why? No, I'd love to know. There's no denying

the skill and the songs, but it always felt sterile to me and there was something annoying about the perfection, which is exactly what people like about them. What everyone likes about them, I'm like, yeah,

but I don't feel any soul. Where's the... Right. But for some reason, I went to a play and they were using Steely Dan songs. I just heard something in a different way. And I have all the records downstairs because I try every so often. Yeah. To engage.

That's so interesting. And then like I finally got it and I realized like, well, there's a lot of depth here. And some of these guys are really fucking playing. And, you know, like I don't know what my aversion was. But then you got to be careful because it'll infect your entire brain. Like, if you listen to a lot of Steely Dan, like, that's all you can, like, you're just going to start eating the other music in your head. That's so funny that you said that because when I was, like, four-year-old, I don't know how old I was. But there's a video of me on a hotel bed, and I'm listening

to Bodhisattva, and I'm having... It's midnight, and I'm just bouncing on the bed going, Bodhisattva, Bodhisattva, and I'm in this religious fucking hole, and it ate my brain. So I definitely understand what you mean. I went there. I have to see that. Did you tour with them? You went on the road with them? Like once or twice, yeah.

I mean, what years would that be? Because they didn't tour a lot, was it? In the 90s. Oh, right. Yeah, the mid-90s. I never talked about this with you, and I want to know everything. I told you I've gone on tour with my dad. Were you on a tour bus?

Did you sleep? No. Like, there were hotels. You fly. So you hung out with Becker and Fagan? I hung out with the kids. Like, I would hang out with some of them. Yeah.

But there were issues. I mean, I'm not going to go into it because I'm sure I'll reveal some crazy shit. Are you still friends with the kids? No, we were playing in the parking lot. No, they're not. We're not. We don't have a text thread. It was like once.

A support group? Yeah. So he was really on a lot of their records then. I cannot tell you. I'm so sorry. I think he was on a guzzle. I can't tell you how many people that I talked to that have no idea what their fathers do. Really? Yeah, as grownups.

Oh, I know every detail of my dad being a 7-Eleven human resource manager. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's impressive. A little more interesting than Steely Dan. It is. It is. No, no. It really is. I thought the humor was that it's not, that I know about it. I'm actually genuine. A 7-Eleven human resource what? Manager. So what? Well, yeah, so he wasn't the director of human resources of the whole East Coast, although that was a goal. He stayed, he was a manager

and just like managed and trained people of like how to be a proper employee. At 7-Eleven. At 7-Eleven. So he was in the corporate world there. But then we would get free Slurpees and hot dogs and stuff. Were they Slurpees or ice? Slurpees. Slushies. Slurpees and hot dogs and stuff were they sorbets or ice

sorbets slushies sorbets yeah isn't that a 7-eleven you're right you're right i'm trying to remember like i grew up in the mid i grew up in the southwest and there was there was icies remember ice and it had a polar bear but i don't know what was that was that here i thought oh it had a polar bear yeah no i don't know don't know. I don't think so. There's some regional differences sometimes. Yeah. Oddly, like I was thinking about 7-Eleven the other day. When I see the sign, I'm comforted somehow. Really?

It's everywhere. Well, that they're still around. I don't think there's as many as there used to be, but when you see them, you're sort of like, oh, there's a 7-Eleven. I should make note of that just in case. Why? Why?

They're everywhere. It's comforting because they're everywhere it's comforting because they're everywhere like i went to japan and there were 7-elevens there and i was like great but did you go to 7-eleven yeah yeah and they have when you go in asia it's i mean high quality food the 7-elevens there are i think fresh fish oh yeah fresh fish cakes you know yeah but like raw fish too right yeah they have sushi they have i. They have, I mean, it's- I think it's owned by China, a company in China now. What isn't?

Right? Yeah, exactly. Huh? Talk to me about it. But now there's raw fish here. Like, I don't, do you eat pokey at strip mall pokey places? I'm not going to do it. Strip mall, no.

No. I mean, like, why is there, it doesn't matter. Well, I've done it. I've done it, but I don't plan on it again. Yeah, it's not good. All right, so, okay. So, your real mom's there, but I don't plan on it again. Yeah, it's not good. All right. So, okay. So your real mom's there. But also, I'm sort of fascinated with the culture.

Even just the food is exciting. There's all these nuances in the show that you're dealing with, the struggles of teenage girls who are coming into themselves. But also, there's a lot of cultural stuff, you know, too, that kind of like that I found interesting. Like when you eat at their house and you're like, what is this? Oh, yeah. Like that.

I remember like even not even a cultural difference, but the first time you go to a friend's house to eat when you're that age and you're used to eating whatever garbage your parents pulled together. Mind blowing. Yeah. And you're like, what the fuck? Yeah. Your mom makes mashed potatoes. Right. Right. From real potatoes. Right. Not the fuck? Yeah. Your mom makes mashed potatoes?

Right. From real potatoes? Right. Not the box. Yeah. We talked about that a lot. I would have the opposite experience where I would see Gushers and all these snacks that we didn't have in our house. And I'd go ape shit and just tear through so many bags of Fritos.

Can I ask, do you remember a friend of yours coming over and being like, ew? Yes. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because it would smell. I mean, there'd be fish and they'd be like- Pickles, those weird Japanese pickles. Yeah, yeah.

And also, I think- That's got to be so- But also, if we had ramen, if there were fun Japanese dishes- Like noodles. People would be like, yay. Oh, really? Yeah. But the fish would kind of-

The fish would throw people off. You're like, yay. Oh, really? Yeah. But like the fish would kind of. The fish would throw people off. The big head. And then you would also tell me too, the whole thing of like, like opening the fridge, right? A friend coming over and opening the fridge without asking, which I love that detail.

I hated that. She hates, I would have these friends from Crossroads and they were, you know, pretty entitled. You went to Crossroads. I went to Crossroads, but I left because I hated it.

Hence our show about middle school. But they would just come in and first thing they would do is open the fridge without asking. Just start rifling through. And my mom would watch from a corner and just shame them with her eyes of how dare they just open the fridge. It was such a cultural. It's sort of like insane what parents have to deal with and how much they have to kind of just like go with the flow sometimes. Yeah. You know, because when you really think about your parents, like what did they fucking know?

Exactly. I mean, like my parents were so young when they had me. And it's just sort of like when I think about the age that they were when I was like 10 and they were like in their 30s. I'm like, what? Like, it must have been just nuts to have like these strong-willed beings running around fucking up their shit. Yeah, masturbating in their rooms. Yeah, and saying they're taking a nap. Well, how did you like sort of, you know, whiteboard the show in terms of like, you know, how did you outline it to deal?

Because these are all specific issues that happen in this time zone and there's stuff that like i remember but i was older but you guys are younger than me that that when aol first start what was just happening and the dial-up modem and all that stuff you know i think it was an important episode to show because that has become literally the the cultural cancer that's destroying you know all young minds yeah and also good them, but like the first sort of kind of wandering into chat rooms at your age and your parents don't know what the hell you're doing. Right. And, you know, it turns out to be a sweet story, but it sort of starts.

Could have gone a lot darker. Yeah. But that's a very contemporary sort of memory that I don't have as a teenager, but has a lot of impact. And how did you guys chart out the issues that you were going to deal with? Well, the first thing we thought of is, okay, we might never

get to do this again. So if we only had one season, what are all the things that are really important that happened to us that we would want to explore? So we would just put a bunch of, you know, we would tell stories for years, really. And we started for six years for six years really yeah six years yeah well let's go back first then like so how did you

wait and also wait crossroads how long did you go to crossroads i went from kindergarten to ninth and i transferred to loxa because i it was a public arts high school because like i don't know much about it i know it's like for for rich kids i know there's sort of a permissive environment and that it's a a kind of like a a kind of a hippie aristocracy like exactly progressive progressive rich people but there are also some non-rich people and i was one of those they they accept some kids celebrity children a lot of celebrity children there's a lot of celebrity children a lot of producers kids a lot of wealth on another level like it's just an la industry wealth that is how do you like in growing up with that like like because i'm a grown-ass person and when i go to somebody's house that is of that yep it's sort

of like what is this life it's i mean how do you like i mean that's the thing is in elementary school you didn't really see the class differences or it didn't come up. But once you hit middle school and people started to buy bags and all the purses, like Prada bags that, you know, these are 12-year-old kids. And then bar and bat mitzvahs where they were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on weddings. Like they were massive parties every weekend. And so that was when wealth became a huge issue for me. And I felt very inadequate. And I still do to this day.

Like that's something that I hold on to. Whenever I go to parties and see those people, I'm like, oh, I'm 13 and not good enough again. Like it just goes right back to that. I do too but you know as you get older you realize like they're not that happy exactly right exactly and they all still hang out with each other well who else are you gonna hang out with you're right you get to a certain level of wealth I mean like you know who else are you going to hang out with they're also some of the cheapest people I know that's how they I'm just saying that's how they stay rich I mean you know I went into so much

credit card debt just to like be in a birthday party and like pay for that person's part of the birthday. And so many memories of the richer people

being like, I can't, I only got a glass of wine. Remember? Yeah. I remember. So then how did you guys like meet originally?

We met at NYU and we're doing doing we're in the tish program acting program you're both in the acting program yeah yeah but then we were doing like experimental theater which was very much making your own work which i feel really kind of douchey saying that an all-black outfit with a turtleneck on but um we were it was like a lot of rolling on the floor at nyu at nyu yeah well yeah but that's part of the acting experience a lot of rolling on the floor. At NYU. At NYU, yeah. Well, yeah, but that's part of the acting experience, right? A lot of massages. Oh, yeah. You massage a lot.

First year, yeah, there was a massage class. There was? Shiatsu class. No, really? Actually, yeah. Yeah, you're paying a lot of money for that. So you went all four years? Yes.

Yes. Yeah, and then we met our junior year of college, and then we became best friends, and we kind of united in a moment of feeling really insecure and then went through breakups at the same time. We were like creating work for this program that there was maybe 20 people and we were all making our own stuff and presenting it. Right. And everybody was doing it. And then I was in the bathroom like with diarrhea and you were too, essentially, right? Yeah. Diarrhea.

Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Because did you both eat the same thing? No, we just. Yes. No. Both had. Anxiety.

Anxiety. Deep anxiety of not. We were just talking about this in the car. Yeah. And of just not being like, and something I still deal with. And you were just saying the same thing. Diarrhea? Diarrhea.

I have ideas. When you get anxious? Yeah. No, I don't really anymore i sweat which is happening now i used to sweat really how did you change that i don't know uh talks no no i i mean the more self-aware you are of it the more like i when i was in middle school yes that was like my biggest fucking horror was like i was the kid with pit stains me too and i went through so much like all different deodorants my dad was a doctor i'm like is there a surgery i could get

to like not i was so freaked out about it is there a surgery sure they could remove your sweat glands i guess but it's a little much and then you know after a certain point i was just like fuck it and like i i just i don't even wear deodorant or nothing and you don't smell or sweat what happened well i don't smell bad well that's good you don't smell right now well i wear patchouli and i have for decades so like but but the sweat thing was so embarrassing for some reason same i don't the same thing it would be winter it'd be freezing and i would have huge stains in my little limited to looking shirt. And I was trying to be feminine.

And, you know, it just felt like the opposite. And then I talked to my doctor and which was horrifying, which we maybe should use. And she prescribed me like medical grade. Deodorant. Deodorant. And it worked. It worked. Yes. And I emailed my doctor recently because you can email your doctors now

for the same thing and she said, it's too dangerous. Yeah, it scares me. That scares me. It's bad for you. Yeah, I remember I tried that stuff and I don't know when it stopped

but like I don't have the problem anymore. I don't know why it went away but my stress, it does different things though. Like over my life, like I've had back, you know, stress reaction.

I've had tightness of chest stress i've had headache stress i've had tight neck shit like it's just coughing i'll cough a lot really i'll go through i thought i had lung cancer but it was really just really anxiety i think how'd you find that out because i was taking like herbal medicine and trying to change my diet because they thought it was acid reflux or they thought i'm a smoker so they thought it was from smoking but i didn't quit and then it just went away when the stress sort of no kidding transferred somewhere else i'm glad that i never like i never had the vomiting or the diarrhea thing oh you're so really yeah i like you know like with stage fright or doing what i do to stand up even at the beginning when i was terrified i did not you know there's people that just like

can't they have to run to the bathroom what about constipation does it manifest in a different way no okay sorry to go there but no i mean it usually would manifest in sweat or like i had a lot of like tingling for me i get that too i get everything you just said you have you have claw hands in the show yeah that's a real when I, I'll start breathing shallowly and then all of a sudden my hands go into claws. And they like, you can't get them out? No. Oh my God.

Not till the end of the audition. It's happened in auditions. There's a medical name for it. It's a real thing. Carpal-pedal spasms. Really? Yeah. I've had the tingling limb thing is a big one.

Like, I just live with it. Anna. You have it too? Oh yeah. Everywhere. I've had the tingling limb thing is a big one like I just live with it Anna you have it too? oh yeah everywhere but it's just like and after a certain point

you're like this is just this is just life yeah yeah yeah I'm tingling right now I am too really?

where? yeah probably you just learn to zone it out yeah yeah well constant tingling like in your arms

it's like pins and needles kind of but like more sparkly yeah yeah and like sometimes sometimes it's both hands. And it's just sort of like, I guess this isn't going away. Because when you have these symptoms, how many times can you go to the doctor and they're like, what?

Yeah, I know. It's nerves. It's nerve stuff. And you just know that they're going to say that. Like, I'm going to walk in there and I'm going to say, like, my back hurts. I'm having some tingling. I'm not breathing right. Could you tell me what I have?

And they're like. You're fine. It's called. Stop drinking so much coffee. Right. That's it. Right. I know.

I'm a big advocate for advocating for yourself in medical things. Well, yeah. I mean, you should go to the doctor if you're really sick. But. Right. You know, wait a minute. You can wait a minute. Right.

You can wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Meditate like my mom and then see how you feel I don't know that's a really tough to learn

it's sort of like alright I feel this right now let's give it a day or two and see what happens because like you know especially when you have the health coverage with after or whatever

it's like I can just go over to the Bob Hope Center and deal with this what's that? how do you like the Bob Hope Center? it's fine

do you trust them? yeah okay great why? do you like the Bob Hope Center? It's fine. Do you trust them? Yeah. Okay, great. Do you trust them? I don't know. I don't trust... I mean, I have a hard time trusting doctors. Just in general, because I'm a hypochondriac. Me too. I used to be a hypochondriac. I check my pulse constantly. Me too. Do you have flutters sometimes? Where your heart's like, did it skip?

It skips, yeah. Mine too. I'm like, oh, it just went into my throat. What happened? I'm going to die. Alright, let's calm down. No, I used to be It skips. Yeah. Mine too. I'm like, oh, it just went into my throat. What happened? This is giving me anxiety. All right, let's calm down. No, I used to be a horrible hypochondriac. You've gotten better. How'd you fix it? By taking some sort of pause. It's like, wait a day or two.

Whatever you're experiencing. I mean, if you're walking and your vision's relatively clear right if you're not falling down or you know coughing up blood uh you probably you might pass right yeah yeah yeah i can do that i think it's i've stopped looking on webmd that's a major no you can't do that no no i know but i was doing that every day for a while you know she's also you've gotten a full i haven't gotten a full scan i would kill to get a full scan i went to j got a full MRI scan. I went to Japan and they do, in Japan for $800, you can get like an MRI, a colonoscopy all at once in one day. Well, I did that for my heart, but like you get older, things actually do happen.

Right, right. Like, you know, you get blood tests and you're like, oh, what? Yeah. What, I got to do what? Yeah. No more of that? Yeah. God damn it.

Then you have to adjust. Then you have to change. Yeah. That's when it really gets real. That's when hypochondria starts to settle down a little bit. It's sort of like, oh, there are actual real things. Right. And I don't have most of them.

When you're young, you don't. I know. So why panic about it before it's actually coming? Yeah. I don't know. I try to figure out what it came from. Because my dad was a doctor, and he was a bit detached. So one way you can communicate

with them is like I'm dying right yeah and I think a lot of it has to do with wanting to feel comforted

but a lot of times you go to the doctor and they're like well we don't know let's do some tests you're like what do you mean right

yeah what kind of tests because it's funny because I'll I'll have symptoms but then I won't quit the things that are actually bad for me, like smoking. So it's a weird. I smoked forever.

Cyclical. You quit. I did, but I'm on these nicotine lozenges. I have been for like a decade. Oh, wow. And they're great. That's great. Yeah, but then you go to sleep with them.

You can do them anywhere. So you're just a nicotine sponge all day long. You don't have to go outside. You're just like half nauseous all the time. It's not the nicotine for me. It's the habit. Oh, it's a nicotine sponge all day long. You don't have to go outside. You're just like half nauseous all the time. It's not the nicotine for me. It's the habit. Oh, it's the nicotine. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, just the... But try going without the nicotine. How's that go? Right. Yeah, maybe try the lozenges. Try the lozenges. Okay. I had to get blood tests for,

like I was checking my cholesterol. Yeah. And like fucking, like I go to the Bob Hope, they do the test test and there's some other count the white cell counts like fucked up and i'm like what no and she's like i don't know this wasn't happening before i'm like what does that mean so then i got to go to a blood doctor and he does a test and you know by the time i go the blood doctor he said the white ones are okay

but you have a platelets problem i'm like what does that mean so then i'm looking at like and it's like some of that shit just like some days are better than others right maybe you ate something you know i had a cut on my finger that was probably escalating but it's like fuck it no it's true you shouldn't have a blood test once a year we should have blood tests every day because it does change every day i thought you were gonna say we we shouldn't do it every year we should do it like once a decade i'm saying and the hypochondriacs like we should get it every minute of the day. Well I'm just saying not every day

but if we could I mean that was the whole thing with Theranos I just watched that documentary so but like if you could see it a pattern with the blood that it's changing

all the day or you let go and you don't which I don't do. You guys bonded around diarrhea and it was a growth and hypochondria is like a nice metaphor.

But what was the thing you had to do? What did you say it was? I don't know. We had to tell. How do you want to say? So it was studying Brechtian fairy tales. So yeah. I'm already anxious and tired.

I know, right? Yeah. So we had to tell a personal story through a frame. Like a frame that removes yourself from it. So there's distance. And me and Anna were just, you know, I kept telling stories that weren't working so I couldn't even get through the first phase of it.

And then everyone had already created these amazing frames. And you and I on the day of the show were just, we had been working all night on our own things and had nothing. And the show was like four people watching i mean it wasn't like a huge thing it was in a like a classroom but it was an intensive theater program so it was very you know what's a brichtian frame so it was through i mean i couldn't tell you maya well i it was, so say I was telling a personal story about like masturbating.

And then I'd have to put it through a frame of like, okay, this is a cooking show. And I somehow connect that through a cooking show of I'm telling this story, but it's in, it's sort of like what we do with PEN15. So it's a device. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Now, okay, so you guys meet there, and do you start working together there at Tisch?

We made a dance together at that program, and then we were just best friends. And then we kept talking about making our own work out of school and when we were auditioning for a theater in New York and stuff. And then we didn't. And then Maya eventually moved to L.A. Back home. Back home. Where'd you live in the city?

Dorms? Dorms for a bit. And then I was in Brooklyn for a little bit in an apartment. East Village. Me too. West Village, Lower East Side. Yeah. Where were you? Second between A and B. Me too. Get Village, Lower East Side. Yeah. Yeah. I was on Second Between A and B.

Me too. Get out of here. Second Between A and B. No. Where the murder was? No, that was on Orchard. Okay. You were on Second Between A and B?

I was on Second Between A and B and then I went to Third Between B and C. I just always moved a block. How did you live between Second and A and B? It's so specific. I swear on my life. Second Between A and B. I loved it.

I was there in like the late 80s. It was insane. It was a shit show. What if it was the same address? I mean, what was your address? I'm trying to remember my address. I think mine was 159 East. I could be making that up.

East 2nd Street? That might be right. Something like that. Was it the big building? I don't think it was a bit. Like a lot of apartments? No. Mine was a very thin building.

Mine was thin. Was it right next to where they did all the can recycling? It was probably closer to B Avenue. Yeah, me too. And it was on the north side of the street. Yeah. Was it right next to where they were always doing something with recycling cans? Was there like a garage right next to it?

No, I don't remember that. I'll have to like check. I don't remember my address. My window was facing second, like the street. Yeah, me too. Guys, we lived in the same place. What can I say? We lived in the same apartment?

Were you renting it from somebody? Like a landlord. Like a lady? Did somebody own the thing? I can't remember. I did it with a friend. They were two bedroom apart. Was it two bedroom?

No. Okay. So we were in a different building. No, it was definitely one room with a kitchen. That was the hallway to the bathroom. Right. There's like a room. There was a slight indention.

And then like the rest of the room, then there was a kitchen that you had to walk through to go to the bathroom. Like a railroad apartment. Kind of. That was your apartment? Well, I had a toilet and a closet. And there was a kitchen that you had to walk through to go to the bathroom like a railroad apartment wait that was your apartment well i had a toilet in a closet and there was no and i knew people that had that and then i had my also my shower was in a closet like it was literally a tiled closet yeah and you close the door and then you just it was real weird my a woman i was dating had a shower that was uh actually a kitchen counter that you had to lift it up get out and there was a tub underneath it.

It was like in the kitchen. Okay, well, that's cool. Yeah, I guess it's cool. The way we had to adapt to the space in New York, it was. It's just bonkers. And you're like excited. Yeah, and you're like, thank you so much. Yeah.

I think that Laura Keitlinger had a shower in the middle of her apartment. Laura. She was on the show. Yeah, I know. She's great. I love her. I've known her forever oh yeah she's great we said we did comedy together for like a million years ago i mean i i've known

her forever and she had yeah i've been why obviously i've been to that apartment in the 80s that it's as i recall when he saw talk to her ask her if there was a shower in the middle of her apartment but is that the one of the counter that you just said? Oh, that's a different one. Just a shower. This is just a shower in the middle of the apartment. I'm pretty sure. I think I might have slept at her house once for some reason. Not in that way.

Okay. No, no, no. All right. So, okay. So you meet there. You're in New York. And is this where you start talking about doing this show? No.

No. I think we were talking about making theater and you know never did it and then maya and we were doing like strange downtown theater then my but not with the school you're but not with the school i was like off off off off off you had to do that it was required as artists that's the only job you could get we wanted it but it's a job i mean working for free this was the interesting thing to me is like i talked to a lot of people that that do the you know make shows and do stuff but you're not you're not in the sketch community no like neither of you went through ucb you weren't you know part of an improv crew probably because of anxiety no but it's weird that like

you guys were straight up actors yeah doing that thing But all the stuff that, you know, really a lot of people in comedy come from was happening. I mean, UCB was happening. Right. But you guys didn't even deal with that world. That's why it was sort of like when I saw the show, it's like one of them must be from that. Right. But you're not. Right.

That's a rare thing. I think, well, I felt like under a rock and in the dark with all of that. Like I didn't, I never really knew about a lot of that stuff, to be totally honest, which I know sounds ridiculous. Yeah. Was working restaurants a lot and was really busy and just trying to like do it. But you weren't, you did not, you weren't seeking to be comic. Didn't identify.

No. I was just saying, didn't identify that way. We were actors in theater. Right, right. didn't identify that way we were actors in theater right yeah that's who fell at times i don't want to speak for you but like out of place because and that's why i found the experimental world was because you could because comedy and sadness for a lot of it was together it was like you can play weird characters and that was fine my first like agent meeting i said to her you know i can play men i can play women i can play all ages and she was her, you know, I can play men.

I can play women. I can play all ages. And she was like, bye. You know, because that's not what's traditional. We don't know what to do with you. I don't know. That doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's too much.

But there was room for that in experimental theater. You could do all that, you know. So that's how we made that. And she's so funny. And so I was like, I want to make something with you that's funny because. We connected on it with our humor. Humor, yeah. But this is kind of informing, as I'm sitting here, what makes the show different from so many vehicles created by sketch performers. Is that your instinct is really never to go broad.

Right? So you're not doing things for the laugh in the same way a sketch performer who is trained in improvising characters would do it. Which makes it more authentic, which has something to do, because you guys are real actors to a degree. The way you approach these roles and why it's sort of seamless is because you're acting the emotions

and you're not trying to be comic characters. Yeah, I think that was probably a misconception that I had about like UCB and improv was, you know, and why it gave me anxiety to join that was because I was like, I can't deal with the pressure to be funny. If I feel like I have to be funny, then I'm going to clam up. And I know that that's actually not the intention. It's a lot of people who are in improv and sketch are like, it's not about that. Go ahead. No, no, no.

You go. But the thing is, is like with years of improv, what they learn is like they'll and they'll say we don't play it for comedy. We'll play it straight. But they are so adept at at knowing exactly how they're funny. Right. You know, and it becomes sort of a character like they fit a certain type. Whereas I think you guys in this show are playing the emotions very honestly. It's earnest.

And the comedy just comes from the discomfort of these girls. Thanks. Thank you. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think the comedy that I'm always interested in is when it's coming from a truthful place. Or when it's from a character or a situation as opposed to I'm not good. Because I respect people who can come up

with really funny jokes. I wish I could. I can't. That's not how my brain works. Yeah. And I think a lot of times too, the things that we've talked about this a little bit, I keep doing that.

We've talked about this a little bit that I always felt like I was laughing at the wrong times. So I could be watching a comedy and I wouldn't be laughing when everybody else was laughing or i'd be laughing alone yeah right at the right or i could be watching something really sad right and i could be hysterically i mean we've been in that situation before so many times the discomfort laugh the discomfort laugh or something so sad which which is universal, which makes me think of something. I don't know. It's just so, it's something so insightful and tragic at the same time.

For some reason, that's something that makes me laugh really hard. Yeah. And I think, I don't know. It's an emotional response. Or something very serious. Yeah. Yeah. Like too serious.

Yeah. And I think a lot of amazing comedians, actually, that's their in. Well, it's the laughter that should be crying. Right, right. And it's super honest. And that's my favorite. Yeah, I don't really care if I'm laughing or I'm crying. I love to watch something and be just destroyed.

Release. Personally. Yeah, release. It makes me feel not alone. It makes me feel like I'm not a freak yeah and everybody else is kind of fucked up too well i think that i think that that is what the show's about yeah yeah because like that's because this is where that happens every day right is middle school yeah yeah because you're like any like to play that weird kind of like because you're still forming you you know, like they're, you know, like it's like this weird pivotal thing where you're you can feel all the other kids like they're like they're just kind of coming into this, you know, adulthood.

Yeah. And it's so horribly awkward. Yeah. They have to kind of move through life with enough confidence. They don't you know, there's the insecurities of being in middle school, but you think you're kind of a grownup. Right, right, right. And then we talk about this a lot. You're kind of in between childhood and not even, and teenagerdom. Like you haven't, there's this space in between. And Maya and I realized this when we both were like,

I remember, like, don't tell anybody, but I was super flat and then grew nipples before anything else. And then it was just this time flat and then and then grew nipples before anything else and then it was just this time of like a flat board and nipples and then for someone else to go me too we never talked about it's not something I talked about I felt like the only freak with that you know and to realize I had that stop it also something that's really weird. This is messed up, but I don't know. Well, I don't know. Say it.

Well, we're all the same at one point. Like I was just thinking like how deeply flat I was. And I'm not that far from it now, but it's a little different. And when I was a kid and how girls and boys are really similar. I don't know. Vaginas and penises sort of. Wasn't thinking about that. Like what were you thinking about?

The flat bodies. Yeah, just like flat chest. Like you're all kind of the same physically from the waist up. Right. Until all of a sudden. Middle school. You get these nipples. At least that's what it was for me.

These like unlucky puff balls. Right. And then. You called them then they were puff balls. Is that the name of an episode in the next season? Maybe. Unlucky puff balls. Unlucky puff balls. And then you try to hide them and then. Yeah. Well didn't you do, wasn't

there an episode where you'd look at like one of the other girls boobs and they were definitely not her boobs. Yeah. Right. Those were like balloons. That was me, actually. Oh, that's right. Balloons filled with sand. Because I knew girls who had, you know, double Ds at that age.

And that was its own nightmare. Everyone's going through their own, you know. And then you start bleeding out of your vagina. I mean, we don't talk about that enough, for sure. It's a time of mourning, I think, because you're grieving your childhood. You're being forced to like. Oh, that period episode is crazy. You know, you're forced to leave that behind.

And yet you're kind of excited to have these adult emotions, but you're not able to process them yet. So it's just a fucked up time. And I have to assume that the giant pad moment with the. Yeah. There has got to be something that women relate to. Yeah, just how do I do? Where someone tries to help out and they're like, here you go. Yeah. And you're like, what? How do I fit this into me?

Yeah. Yeah, there's no way. I mean, I didn't do it for a year. You hid it for a year. I hid it for a year because I was so ashamed. And so I would make pads out of toilet paper that were about half a lot. But what in your, why didn't someone say that was normal? How would you?

I was one of the first, I think, to get it in my year. So no one talked about it. And I just felt like a monster. Where was mom on that one? I didn't tell her. I didn't want her to know because I thought it would make her love me less. Like that was the way I understood it. If I become a woman, I'm no longer a child.

I'm no longer lovable. Not because you were menstruating, but because you were now a grown up. Right. Like signifying. But you knew it wasn't abnormal. No, I knew it was normal. And I was like, oh my God. Also the reality setting in of this is going to happen for the rest of my life, like once a month.

That is a crazy. Yes. And you think about like how we relate. I think about this a lot, but like bathroom stuff. You're not supposed to talk about it. Right. But yet all of these women are experiencing it or girls. are experiencing it or girls and then i mean if a penis bled yeah for days every month and you have to like actually hide it because it's not cool to just like let it out right i mean that creates

that's it's weird and i will say that just you and i talking about it and putting it in the show was still scary and yet this has been something forever. Right. And it's still weird to talk about. Like it still makes, I don't know a lot of my best girlfriend's stories about their first period or what it looks like or what it, I mean,

you just don't talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, yeah, it is. You're not taught it's hot. You know what I mean?

And you're taught to be hot. Yeah. To some extent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I mean? And you're taught to be hot. Yeah. To some extent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I guess guys had to hide boners in school.

That was their thing. So where's with your books? With the book. Yeah. But that's not the same. It's not the same. No. But that's also accepted in the sense.

And we have like, that's funny. But you get a lot of those boners that don't come from anywhere. Right. That's got to be so weird. That's odd. funny. But you get a lot of those boners that don't come from anywhere. Right. It's got to be so weird. Yeah. But it's not blood. Right. Right.

It's not blood they have to worry is, you know, leaking. No, I like as a dude, I mean, I don't know that I'd seen it explored that thoroughly. And I felt like I was seeing something for the first time. The struggle. It's kind of nice. No, it is nice. Because I think that like if there's anything that's happening, which a lot is in terms of gender sensitivity, is that, you know, we, because of whatever shame happened culturally, that we don't,

it's hard for men to be empathetic because we can't be women. Right. And when you see something like that, you're like, oh, God, that's a fucking nightmare. Right. Yeah. And it just, we just. be women. Right. And when you see something like that, you're like, oh God, that's a fucking nightmare. Right. Yeah. And it just, we just. It helps. Yeah.

And something I was so grateful to Maya for was being willing to talk about masturbating at that age in the show. And it, as an adult, that's scaring me too. And that making me sad that it scared me. And then you being willing to do it and wanting us to put it in the show and all that it was fuck out of me i thought the great thing about that was um well i'm glad you you know transcended the fear but but that that age where

you masturbate but you don't really know why you're having the feelings right because you can't attach them to things and you're just looking at sand or whatever. Sand dunes. Sand dunes, yeah. I thought that was genius because there is a period there where you have no sex education, but you know you can come. Right. So it's not really connected to anything. And what it turns out gets you there is something sort of sweet and poetic and not filthy.

Right, right. It doesn't matter. I'm just having these turned on feelings. And it's weird that I instinctually knew how to do it too. Like how to pleasure myself.

I mean, yeah. For animals. Yeah. It's just like, you know, you're on a bike, something happens. Right. And then to come the first time

is pretty powerful. I've been talking about it on stage lately, like about that. Yeah. For the first time well yeah because I

like I stuck my dick in a bath water coming out of a faucet yay and like and it was just sort of like what's going on and I just wait in the bath

in the like the water was coming out hard oh and I must have been like 10 or 11 yeah and somehow I got it in there yep and I just left it in there

and then yeah and it happened. And you came your first time? Yeah. Did you feel like you had done something wrong or had you seen examples in the sense of or heard it in movies or whatever? I don't know.

I didn't, I don't know that I felt like I did something wrong. I, I, I know. Like I cracked the code. Yeah, definitely. This is something I'm glad I have this power. Right. And I grew up with it. You're a super power.

It is. I grew up with, like, for some reason, like, the Jewish kids, I don't know why, everybody was pretty open about jerking off. And, you know, there was always a conversation, you know. No, I didn't feel much shame. But not the girls. You didn't hear a girl talk about it, probably. No. That's the thing that we, yeah, I mean, it's shame. But not the girls. You didn't hear a girl talk about it. No.

That's the thing that we, yeah. I mean, it's not that people know this, but. I don't know if you talk about amongst yourselves. I don't, we didn't, we didn't. No, no. Oh, we didn't talk about it with, with girls. Right. No, but.

Girls didn't talk about with each other. Like it was revolutionary for me in college as a progressive woman to hear Maya talk about it. And yeah, but me talking about it, then other people would start talking about it and be like, oh my God, you too? Okay, so I wasn't a freak or a pervert. I mean, that is what is instilled in your head as a kid. Yeah, as a girl, especially. I did a joke about it because I don't have much shame about it.

And I know girls masturbate and I've seen them do it. Yeah. You know, in front of me. I would hope so. Yeah. Of course, because that's, you know, that's nice. That happens. Of Yeah. Of course, because that's, you know, that's nice. That happens. Of course.

Of course. I used to do a joke about, you know, the first time you see a woman masturbate in front of you, there's sort of this moment where you're like, wow, that thing can take a beating. I thought it was like a delicate flower. I thought you can really go at it. That's great. It's the human body. I mean, it's durable human body I mean it's durable

it is it's resilient that clip well there's just the intensity yeah the intensity of anyone's particular style

you know like they're like what I'm speaking to is like I thought it had to be handled with a certain amount of delicacy

but I mean I have felt that way with penises also that of like it has to it's a delicacy i don't want to hurt because like i was so scared to hurt it oh my god and i definitely i still am scared you did hurt it yeah but by pulling on it i just like didn't i was very well that was later but i i was very

handing was later the yeah it was like oh that like rubbing sticks for a fire oh yeah it worked out yeah he loved it, right? You said it was the best handjob he ever had. Oh, my God. Okay. The new trick. So what I was going to say was, what was I going to say? About hurting a penis.

Oh, yeah. The first time I was very, very, very scared. And I had been slut shamed as a younger person not having done anything sexual. And there was a rumor that went around about me and blah, blah, blah. And so I didn't end up going in that vicinity until junior year of high school,

which in my town was very late. And it was like the middle of the night in the woods next to a car. You and a dude? Me and a dude me and a dude and he was my boyfriend we had been dating for a while he broke up with me soon after and um and it was just like very dry in retrospect and and i just didn't i mean it nothing happened because it was in retrospect it was just like i don't know like sand like sandpaper on a you know i i i feel like i haven't given that many hand jobs in my life i mean maybe we're going into

too many personal details but but i get home later i'm just going to be reeling of like well i had sex before doing any of those things because what i was too scared i don't know do you get that yeah i like hand jobs are okay like who cares i can i'm gonna be able to do that. Do you get that? Yeah, handjobs are okay. Who cares? I'm going to be able to do better. That's what I always think. And then if they get involved and they're trying, it's just like, I'll do it.

You don't want to be that guy. Right. Handjobs are difficult. They're hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's just I think that there's a fear around because it's not your own body and you don't know everybody's different so yeah you're gonna hurt them and you might if

you're me i'm a master with myself you know no one will ever yeah of course that beat it yeah yeah of course literally yeah but uh okay so when so how does so how is it six years? Well, we didn't know how to write. Yeah. So that was part of it, honestly. But what did the concept come from? You were just sort of talking or you did a bit? Yeah, no, we brainstormed with our other co-creator, Sam Zwiebelman.

And so we, you know, came up with the idea and then decided we wanted to write the show. But each year we would think it would happen and it just would go nowhere. And it also the first script we wrote was like 58 pages with 82 characters. We didn't know what we were doing. And so it took, I don't know what, a couple of years before we got to make a presentation. Yeah, we got to make like a 15 minute kind of short film to see if it would work and we thought that it did and then so that helped and it was definitely i mean i don't think it would have been made without getting to make that short thing to show that this is a concept that could make sense right and then and then it took two or three years

to i mean it kind of died and came back to life many many times it's kind of a miracle it was actually made and And Hulu, they were into it. They were into it from the beginning. I mean, we only pitched it to three places because at the time Fox was attached and they weren't making deals with a lot of places, I guess.

But we were lucky enough that, yeah, Hulu wanted to make it. And then, yeah, you just, I fully underestimated how long it took, like the contract closing and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah. It's a nightmare.

Yeah. Every year I'd be like, it's going to be next year for sure. I got to keep it clear. And I'd be wrong. And when you broke it down, you just went from your personal stories. Like these were the issues. Because each episode has a few things that were very specific to the time. And you got such great performances out of all the kids.

It was kind of crazy. They're so good. They really lucked out. Yeah. I mean, I think that most of the episodes have moments that really happened to us, but you know, we wanted it to be episodic,

but lightly serialized so that there was like a little bit of a story that you followed in an arc and the arc was kind of needing each other to survive. You know, you can be a loner you can be a reject but by yourself you will die yeah right with somebody else that's the difference i think of life and death at that point and maya and i in real life both had that person so we and and i feel like that with you and our real friendship like it is that sink or swim

quality to it of like how do i get through the day okay i have my you know that that's true and so we wanted that to be in there and a loss of innocence to be in there but still retain enough innocence that if we had future seasons we could go into more mature content later while still staying in seventh grade i mean the idea that we would stay oh you're not gonna to eighth grade? The idea is like limbo forever, the metaphor of how we feel- As adults. You know, that you never leave, but that we could continue to grow and change and hopefully tell a lot of stories and a lot of experiences through that.

Right. Yeah. Like high school experiences, but in seventh grade. Oh, so that's like a conscious decision, like we're not going to go to eighth grade ever? For now, yeah. Because what would happen? I mean, we're open if you have any ideas. But like what's going to happen? You're going to grow and you're going to grow out of some awkward period. And then you're going to assimilate more probably.

I mean, that's right. That's I guess you could become more. Purpose of our, or at least our show is about being in that middle place. Being stuck. Being stuck in between.

Yeah, I understand that. And I respect that decision. But like, it stays pretty shitty throughout high school. For some people. If you're my Erskine, I'm just kidding.

It stays shitty. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we have to I'm just kidding. Stay shitty. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have to think on it more. It seems like the hierarchy still exists and that you're still entering these weird, insecure areas. You just know more. But I think it would be harder to maintain the innocence. Yeah.

And the freakdom changes, I think, that, yeah, that you cross from, like, because I think the whole point in some way was, like, you're not child and you're not teen. Right. You're in this very bizarre in-between stage where these, your body is changing or the surroundings and ideas of what you should know are changing, but you don't have the ability to properly cope with it. You don't know what to do. And I think if we gave it enough time to get older, then you would learn what to do. But who knows? Maybe we'll swallow our words.

Maybe the last season is us as adults. Well, I mean, you've got like a few seasons in seventh grade that no one's going to question you. Yeah, I think maybe that's what I was thinking too, that like we definitely haven't exhausted seventh grade. No, there's so many. So maybe if we felt like that, we could continue on. Yeah, well, I loved it.

Great job. Thank you. Nice talking to you guys. Thanks for watching. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. Yeah, sure. Okay, that was fun.

I love them and I love the show. Pen15 is streaming on Hulu now and I guess we're gonna be looking forward to a season two. I think they should grow I love the show. Pen15 is streaming on Hulu now, and I guess we're going to be looking forward to a season two. I think they should grow up with the kids, though. They're going to have a real hard time with casting because all those kids they used are that age. I think they should probably, you know, each season should be the next grade. I'm going to be the guy that I'm going to DM Anna and tell her,

maybe you should just keep growing up with the kids that you've already cast. I think I said that. Didn't I tell him that? All right. No music because I'm not home. Boomer lives. We'll be right back. Everyday Essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

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