WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1022 - Timothy Olyphant

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

In the last decade or so, Timothy Olyphant realized that a lot of his interests when he was younger were either impractical, ill-fitting or not very cool. He found himself going in many different directions because, as he puts it, he was scared to death of success. Timothy talks with Marc about his false starts as an artist and a standup comic before falling into acting. He explains why Deadwood was the gift that keeps on giving in terms of what he learned while making it and why he started taking a counterintuitive approach to acting in order to get out of his own head. This episode is sponsored by Leesa and Stamps.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fuck sticks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast clearly i'm not at home uh you can probably hear the difference i would imagine are you okay it's memorial day i hope you're taking it easy maybe uh say a prayer have a few memories uh you know pay a little respect to the people that do the service uh dedicated their lives to this country eat Eat some good food. Don't get into political arguments with family members. Don't burn the burgers or fuck up the ribs or overcook the salmon. Look, if you're trying to grill onions on that thing and they fall into the coals,

just let it burn out. Don't freak out. Don't lose your shit at the grill. All right? Just let it burn out. Don't freak out. Don't lose your shit at the grill. All right. That's all I'm saying. Because as you know, and as I know, if you're losing your shit at the grill, it's probably about something else. Oh, by the way, Timothy Oliphant is on the show today.

You know him from Deadwood Justified. But he came over and yeah, he was wearing a hat. You know, sometimes you wonder about these these stars of things where they wear hats. Does he wear a hat all the time? He did wear a hat when he came over. So why am I doing this right now? Why am I sitting upstairs in a room at Comedy on State in Madison, Wisconsin, in a sort of panic in between shows, recording my podcast?

I'll tell you why. Here's the deal. Here's how this works. I would have brought my equipment, but I didn't want to bring my equipment because I was going to be back yesterday on Sunday, but the only direct flight flies out of Madison at like 3.20 in the afternoon. Too many things in between me in Madison and me sitting at the mics in Los Angeles, and I panicked, though brendan was like it'll be fine you know i'll be up and i'm like i don't know man it's one plane one shot

at getting out what if i don't get out then i'm gonna have to scramble and find somebody with equipment go to a radio station you know and stay here an extra night that you know it was just this is the problem with my imagination, folks. And it's an ongoing issue. All right. Like, why can't I just think of good things? Why does it always be so thoroughly specific when I'm filled with dread and panic? Why? But that being said, I've been here in Madison for a few days.

The shows have been amazing. This is by far one of the best comedy clubs in the country. Dina Hashem opened for me. She was amazing. She flew in from New York. And today, it's Saturday that I'm recording this. I just got done doing an episode, today's episode, if you want to go find it.

It was pretty funny. Doug loves movies. Doug Benson's show. I get this DM on Twitter from Benson. Hey, I'm going to be in Madison doing my show at 4.30 in the afternoon on Saturday. Do you want to do it? He must know when he's going to places where he's got people that can do the show. How am I going to turn the guy down? What am I going to say? I'm busy at 4.30 in the afternoon on Saturday in Madison. I'm just, that's a bad time for me. Fucking, of course, of course I'm going to do the show. And it was fun.

It was funny. And I'm no good at those games, but we did the show. And it's been good here, man. It's been good in Madison. It's a weird thing to be in towns where I've had a little bit more free space in my mind lately. I'm reading this amazing book that's blowing my mind. I finished Fantasyland, and now I'm reading an advanced press copy of it. It came from something awful, which is basically the entire history of the 4chan phenomenon that that helped sort of propagate and spread the propaganda that uh that that propelled trump into office it's it's

it's basically the history of the army of unfuckable hate nerds and uh i didn't know so much of that shit there's so much we don't know as grown people you know in this culture we live in like i don't you know i'm not it's not that i'm not proficient it's just it's not my second nature to be up to speed on i didn't even know what all those chans were two chan four chan eight chan didn't know it came from japan didn't know the the sort of the unfolding of that the chan universe this is this isn't even red, which I kind of know, but I don't spend any time on, but just the sort of nihilistic, dark hive mind of the Chans.

I had no idea about it. And oddly, as frightening as it is, it made me feel better to at least have a handle on what the fuck happened, what's going to continue happening and where the conversation goes so it's enlightening it's not out yet but uh i'll let you know when it comes out because those two books together fantasyland and it came from something awful are uh great companions if you want to just blow your mind with uh dark but honest factual reporting that uh not a lot of hope there but

at least understanding and sometimes that's the best you can hope for is a bit of understanding so i'm reading this book i'm reading this book about the army of unfuckable hate nerds and it's really you know and i've been a little hard on the nerds and like i'm no jock dude i'm just an old dude yeah i guess i'm a little snotty sometimes and I've been a little hard on the nerds and like, I'm no jock, dude. I'm just an old dude. Yeah, I guess I'm a little snotty sometimes. And I've been a little snotty to the nerds, you know, in relation to entertainment product, you know, in relation to Marvel movies and Game of Thrones. I've been a little snotty, though. I am reframing that in a little more diplomatic way but you know i do know that maybe there's a crossover obviously between some of the nihilistic hate nerd army and the uh fantasy people but this book is really about that lifestyle of of because of the internet that you can kind of you know some of this there's a generation of

young people who were literally brought up by the internet brought up by each other and whatever influences and and sort of uh horrible momentums occur on these chat boards or in these platforms and you know some of them are are are severely broken lonely angry lost people but they're not all bad and i don't want to come off as a guy who's punching down or a bully and like I think about it but like I still have to separate in my mind like I'm allowed to be culturally critical of things but do I have to sort of generalize about the people that that watch them and I think you can do that but how is that not different than than stereotyping to a certain degree so I so it's a delicate balance that I'm aware of.

And this stuff sort of haunts me a little bit sometimes. And just by some karmic coincidence, at the hotel I'm staying at in Madison, there's this, I guess it's a yearly thing, I didn't know anything about it. And it's called WISCON. And it's Women in Science Fiction, I think is what it stands for. But it's obviously, you know and it's Women in Science Fiction, I think is what it stands for, but it's obviously it's open to everybody but these are primarily like a lot of them, there must have been a couple hundred people who were

involved in science fiction and fantasy and this is their little conference and the place was full of these, they're sort of oddly special gifted people, you know the the the place was full of these they're they're they're sort of oddly special gifted people there you know like i there is a way to characterize nerd culture there is a whole sort of massive bunch of communities of nerds who are going at it out there in the uh on on the on the internet in the chans on the tumblers all the stuff i don't really

know about but it's huge and a lot of it has to do with living in fantasy and they pull out sometimes they pull out to hang out in person and talk to each other and i guess share stories have conferences share art and just share their humanity and i just never really this is i guess a fault of my own really thought about the women and there are a lot of them and they were a lot of them were at my hotel and it was just a it was just wild a diverse sort of community of all kinds of people all shapes sizes genders hairs you know ages i mean but they were all specifically on the fantasy spectrum i will say that fantasy spectrum not the spectrum spectrum though there's probably an argument to be made but i just it was just fascinating and being around them all made me giddy it was sort of elevating somehow there's probably an argument to be made. But it was just fascinating, and being around them all made me giddy.

It was sort of elevating somehow. There's an energy to it that I just rarely experience. And it was very humanizing, and I was happy for them. And it made me giddy. So power to you folks, to you fantasy people, primarily for getting out and engaging with each other in this sphere. That's all I'll say. That's all I'll say.

I don't want to mock it because I found it incredibly endearing and amazing, and I had nothing to do with it and I just kept my head down and I just sort of sucked up some of that energy because it's intense man so okay anyway Timothy Oliphant is here and we had a nice conversation he's a very nice guy and I hope this sounds okay so this is a well I hope what I'm doing right now sounds okay, because in my headset, it's not great. But right now, this is me and Timothy Oliphant. He's in Deadwood, the movie, premiering this Friday, May 31st on HBO. He's a very nice guy. Enjoy.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and C's apply. Enjoy.

Lynn Sheldon just texted me a picture of you laying with the dead guy from Santa Clara. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah, the director. Yeah. Lovely. Yeah. Yeah, with the fake dead guy.

Yeah, with the fake dead guy. I didn't know that was a fake dead guy. That's just a random thing. Yeah. That's just a random thing. And I got a picture of you on my phone with the fake dead guy. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, with the fake dead guy. Yeah, with the fake dead guy. I didn't know that was the fake dead guy. That's just a random thing. Yeah. That's just a random thing. And I got a picture of you on my phone with the fake dead guy. Interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, I've seen that. Things get around, man. Yeah, it's a small world, as they say. Yeah. We didn't want to paint it. I know those people who do. I know Tracy Katsky. Oh, there you go.

She seems to know everybody. Yeah. I went to a party with her once, and she knew everybody, and everybody in comedy. Sure. She was one of the gang back in the day when we were all starting out there you go yeah we had a gang where was the gang in new york no it was here that gang was here it kind of revolved around uh largo the old largo on uh yeah she was telling me she and silverman were yep roommates silverman but sarah silverman she and their roommates i remember that apartment yeah well and that's an la apartment it was an la apartment and the three it was maryland rice cub sarah silverman and tracy caskey and the place

looked like a fucking montessori school there was guitars around they were painting there was no were you part were you in new york for a while too yeah i was yeah you were in new york in the 90s i was in new york in the 90s for sure. Were you? Yes, I was. I feel like I have a vague memory of you there in the 90s. Really?

Yes. Well, what's your arc? Who was your crew that you started with? Who were the guys you came up with? I don't feel there was a crew.

I don't feel like I could ever claim such a thing. Really? I feel like I knew a few people. Yeah. But I don't feel like

I was ever... You were never part of a gang? Well, there was sure of it, that short-lived thing when I was at USC and I fell into a bad crowd there off campus. Ooh, the bad crowd off campus. Yeah. That sounds promising.

Do the Crips and the Bloods enjoy when you joke that you were part of their gang once? Yeah. Is that something they're like, ah, that's funny. Do you go by Tim? Tim's good. Yeah? But you choose to be called Timothy on the credits? Well, it just started out that way.

I never got around to thinking past that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty dramatic name somehow. Timothy Oliphant. Is that how you pronounce it? No, it's not. But it's Oliphant.

Oliphant. Oliphant, like elephant. I get it. What kind of name is that scottish and and do you are you do you identify as scottish uh as opposed to like mixed like you know like do you do you take pride in your scottish roots no it's just there yeah yeah it's just there you've never never tracked it? No, but my brother did. And so I just said, oh, what do we got? Yeah, what do you got?

Yeah. What did you get? We got the big revelation, although this came earlier on, was there's some Ashkenazi? Ashkenazi? Ashkenazi Jew. You got some Jew in you. Got some Ashkenazi Jew. Yeah, I'm all that.

I think we're like- I'm 99.5% Ashkenazi Jew. You got some Jew in you. Got some Ashkenazi Jew. Yeah, I'm all that. I think we're like- I'm 99.5% Ashkenazi Jew. Yeah, I mean, I tried. I tried as hard as I could, but I could only get about 15, I think. Do you know who it was? Who's the Jew? On my mother's side, my grandfather, his family escaped. They were Russian Jews.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, that's the Ashkenazis it was Eastern European Russian Jews there you go so it was on my mother's side so it's no small part

you got no I think my mother was like in the in the 23 20 you know yeah that was a big deal for

you didn't know that for the no I remember when they found out it was a big it was like I don't want to paint a bad picture

it wasn't scandalous but I do think it was a big, it was like, I don't want to paint a bad picture. It wasn't scandalous, but I do think it was a big deal for my mother. Scandalous. Get it out of me. Exactly. How could this happen? There's true in me. Exactly.

I think it was a big deal for my mom, my aunt, my uncle, when they realized, it's kind of hard to imagine how they, I just don't think it occurred to them was part of their equation. Yeah. It was a big deal for them when they found that out. It's exciting. Yeah. I don't know what you do with the information,

but it's exciting to know what you're made of. Sure. Where'd you grow up, though? I grew up in Modesto, California. Now, wait, okay, so Modesto, that's not, I get confused with Bakerfield, Modesto. Modesto's around here. I like that you took the S off of Bakerfield. You put it-

Bakersfield. Bakersfield. Yeah, like- Bakersfield, you just keep going north. Right, and Modesto's right around here, kind of. No, further north. Oh, really? Bakersfield's closer.

Okay. Yeah. But Modesto's by the Bay Area? Exactly. Right. About an hour and a half. But it's like cowboy land? Yep.

Like agriculture? Yep. Like, I think I've met people from around there. Like there was some, was it, was Creedence Clearwater from around there? Yep. Okay. I'm getting it. You are.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good thing to have. My uncle has a great story. My late uncle, God bless him, he had a college band, Battle of the Bands with Creedence. With CCR? Yeah, well, they were then the Pollywogs. Pollywogs, right.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. They played, yeah, that was his claim to fame. They beat him in Battle of the Bands. They beat him? Yeah, they beat him. Yeah. Oh. A little shout out to the Pineapples.

Yeah, the Pineapples. What did he, was he the guitar player? Yeah. Oh, man. College band. And you knew him? You knew your uncle?

Yeah, of course, yeah. Did he stay playing? Did he stay, he still, yeah, loved to play even though he wasn't, you know, didn't go down that road still,

jammed it and they all got together a few years back and they all, they played some some tunes together again oh man but what was going on why why modesto what was your old man in your mom he worked for gallo wines started with del monte i think he moved there for del monte and then went to work for gallo so he was a food guy desto well yeah well he was in wine yeah got a wine for Gallo. So he was a food guy. Modesto. Well, yeah. Well, he was in wine. Yeah.

Gallo wine. So, yeah. I guess he was on the production side. Uh-huh. But I think Del Monte brought us to Modesto and then went to work for Gallo. Del Monte. Del Monte. Canned foods.

Exactly. Ketchups. Yeah. Del Monte ketchups. Pineapples. Oh, yeah. Pineapples. Peaches.

Pineapples. All this stuff. I don't know. We were in. Did you have plenty of that at home? Did it come home with your dad? Del Monte ketchups. Pineapples. Oh, yeah. Pineapples. Peaches. Pineapples. All this stuff. I don't know. Yeah, we were in. Did you have plenty of that at home? Did you come home with your dad? I don't remember the Del Monte. That was, I think, a very early chapter.

But I do think that played a part in Modesto. What did your mom do? She was raising us kids. How many? Three. All boys? All boys. Wow.

And you were just, like, can't imagine i don't know like i have no like sense of what modesto is like so you weren't in your show business really american graffiti yeah it was like that just uglier cars oh that's modesto oh yeah lucas was he shot that there he shot it in santa rosa a great part of it but but he grew up in Modesto. So it was a movie about- Car culture. Car culture. Driving around. Yeah, you know, graffiti. Yeah.

American graffiti. Sure, yeah. We had American graffiti nights. Oh, you did? Every once a year. You got to grease up? Wolfman Jack, everyone coming out, yeah. Wolfman came?

Yeah, yeah. Hey, what's going on? Wolfman Jack. It started out as just a thing. Yeah. And then it became very organized. Now I think you enter. It's a big deal What man's that? It started out as just a thing. Yeah. And then it became very organized. Now I think you enter. It's a big deal.

It's still happening. I think they still have graffiti nights in Modesto. Don't quote me on this, but the last I heard it still existed, but now it's very, you know, you can't just, when I grew up, we'd just, anyone could just drive up and down the street that night. We'd all go down with lawn chairs and and we'd just hang out on the... Oh, so they'd bring the lowriders and the old cars and stuff? Exactly.

Yeah. Cruise around, and Chuck Berry would come to town and play. You know, that kind of stuff. It's so weird, dude. I was thinking about that the other day, about how... Because I play music, but I was thinking about the music my dad liked, and the music he played in the car and stuff, and it's gone. There's not even oldie stations anymore maybe on serious i guess but you start to think about that generation

they're gone so all that made that whole soundtrack most people don't know those songs it's kind of weird man like i like like my 15 year old who's really into music yeah knows a lot of that music really all the way back doo-wop shit and into music knows a lot of that music. Really? All the way back to doo-wop shit? Yeah. Yeah? That's good.

Chuck Berry. Yeah. Little Richard. Yeah. I mean, it's quite fascinating how much it'll jump around when she takes over the playlist in the car. Buddy Holly. Yeah. No, she's aware of Buddy Holly.

That's great. That gives me hope. Well, it's a lot of times, I think maybe, I'm not even sure why, other than she loves music. But I think there is something about where you have these playlists now and the artists that inspire those playlists. You can sort of go pretty deep. I guess that's right.

You can kind of go pretty deep. So they have that era. Yeah. pretty deep. I guess that's right. You can kind of go pretty deep. So they have that era. Yeah, you can get into anyone, and then it's very accessible to find out who inspired those artists. People love to put together playlists. The artists put together playlists. So you can listen to Anderson.Paak. Right.

You're really into Anderson.Paak. And then see, oh, inspired by, or influenced by, or their influences. So then all of a sudden you're like, whoever he listened to, you're listening to. So you can open your mind. Or you jam, like you play like, yeah, you go on those, you go on iTunes and find, you know, oh, all the songs that Dr. Dre was into.

Right. And half of it's all the songs he sampled, which is really old stuff. Right. And it just keeps going. I guess that's true. I guess I'm showing my old man-ness by saying. Look, I just know with my teenage, I mean, we're talking about teenagers, but I'm really surprised that every now and then you're like, are you playing Dionne Warwick?

What's going on? Like, why are we playing this? That's, you know what I mean? She's like, oh, yeah, I love this song. That's great. And I'm like, but why do you, why is it even in your repertoire? And she tells you. She's like, yeah, it's really great.

Yeah, they don't know where it happened in history necessarily but they enjoy the music yeah so it all starts to so that is

one thing I find I sort of marvel at what'd you grow up with now my son does not do that what's he up to he's just listening to this straight hip hop just you know

it's just but we're not as proud of him as we are his sister so for the record you got a troubled kid as he gets out there It's just, but we're not as proud of him as we are his sister. So for the record. You got a troubled kid? As he gets out there in the world, when people, should you be listening to this,

when you meet my son, you think, oh, yeah, this is that one. The bad son. Yeah, this is the bad seed. How many you got, two? We got three. You did three. We did three, Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah.

I thought two was plenty, but we went with the third. Yeah. What would the third one come out? Boy? Girl? Girl. Yeah. Two girls and a boy?

Exactly. And the youngest is in her teens? Teens. Oh, man. Yeah. You got your hands full. How old's the son? Well, not really.

Not yet? We're about done. Oh, really? Yeah. Good luck. We're at that stage. Take care. Pat him on the ass and Good luck. We're at that stage. Take care. Pat him on the ass and just say, go get him, champ.

Let us know if you need anything, but not too much. Let us know if you need anything. Exactly. Don't get into trouble. Yeah, exactly. Listen, here's our number, but your mom and I are going on a trip. For the rest of your life. Yeah.

So the boy's the oldest? No, he's the middle. All right. So they're all, oh, wow. Yeah. So the boy's the oldest? No, he's the middle. All right. So they're all, oh, wow. Yeah. And you got colleges and all that stuff. Yeah, no, that's all happening. Do yourself a favor and don't pay anyone to get your kid into school.

You know, I swear, those kids went to school with my kid, too. Oh, Jesus. Oh, man. Hilarious. Yeah, yeah, it's funny I I got a kid in college on a tennis scholarship and it never

occurred to me that she never even had to play fucked up we actually did the lessons and everything really

I just wasn't thinking creatively enough I just wasn't thinking creatively enough none of them are in college yet are they yeah

one in college one on the way. Oh. Oh. So, okay. So you're in Medellin. What kind of music were you listening to? Characterize your high school years. Were you a metal guy?

Were you a country guy? I've seen Judas Priest on more than one occasion. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. It was a tough, maybe about a decade or two ago, I really had to come to terms with, this is not good.

This was- Just the music of your whole life. It really doesn't hold up. It's really sad. Which ones? Name them. I mean, they're all, but- Def Leppard.

Yeah. It's just- Judas Priest. But the priest, I- You can still do. I still have a little soft spot for him. Some of them I do dig. Van Halen holds up.

Van Halen holds up in a little bit. Yeah, ACDC forever. Yeah, but see, those are kind of rooted in, a little bit more rooted in some blues and stuff. Sure, you're just talking about the metal stuff. Holds up a little better. But, no, and look, even some Priest tunes, I feel like, I don't care what you say it's i stand by it it's solid how about iron maiden were you uh kk downing um glenn

tipton uh i'm a big fan uh iron maiden not so much i wasn't into them that much but um they were in there you know where it gets crazy is you you know, when you start throwing out. When my buddies and I are hanging out, listening to Y&T or, no? I don't even know what that is. Oh, strong, buddy. Yeah. Strong. Yeah.

You should pull it out. Y&T? Y&T. Yesterday and today. They're still around. NorCal band. Or a little Aldo Nova. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah. I listened to Billy. The other night, I was texting my buddy from high school. He said he was listening to a little Billy Squire. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah? I listened to Billy. The other night, I was texting my buddy from high school. He said he was listening to a little Billy Squire. Oh, yeah, sure. And- That one record.

Exactly. That one record. Yeah. That was a big record. Yeah. I don't know what happened to that guy. Don't say no. Yeah, it was cool.

It was all right. Yeah, Lonely is the Night. It's solid, dude. Yeah, it was cool um it was all right yeah lonely as a night it's solid dude yeah it was solid uh there's a lot that doesn't hold up because we were listening to all that uh you know they start to you go down the hair bands basically sure yeah well you're younger than me how old are you no i'm 50 how old are you 55 no well i'm still you're right i am younger a little bit you're 50 i'm 50 looking. A little bit. You're 50? I'm 50. Looking good, man.

Holding up. You know, I try to eat right and exercise. You do, right? Walking around without your shirt on. I love that there was a follow-up. No, but seriously, you do, don't you? It takes a lot, man. It takes a lot to look as good as you do at 50.

You're not going to just lay it off as a casual thing. It's work. It's work it's work I appreciate it I think we're both doing alright yeah I think so but there was then there was some

you know I also fell into that sort of new wave thing so there was the concerts like well

the police hold up but if you go down the list of opening bands Thompson Twins who else is in there sure yeah oh you know who uh is in that was in that whole thing was so it was like english beat oh yeah i like the english beat i still listen to english beat yeah just can't stop it that record yeah tears of a clown strong that's great the best stuff was more like the

elvis costello great and And that sort of fun punk stuff that was happening there. The pop punk stuff. Yeah, it was really fun. So listening to that, like the Repo Man soundtrack, things like that. Those were kind of...

So there's some things you kind of go, it's funny to look back and see. It defines us. Yeah. It makes us feel better. It was a huge... And were you like that? We were all over the map. Oh, yeah. I feel like. It was a huge, and were you like that? We were all over the map.

Oh, yeah. I feel like our friends, a bunch of us were all over the map. Once I got older. We were like metalhead guys in the smoking section. Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. At high school, sure.

By the way, our smoking section was in front of the school, like in the front. When the young kids were being dropped off, the freshmen were being dropped off by their mothers, there between the drop, getting out of that car, that Oldsmobile, and getting to the front of the, into the school, was a giant group of people in leather jackets and a huge cloud of smoke above them.

In my high school, I remember you could smoke anywhere outside. Oh, really? We had a section. I mean, there was, just the fact that we were in high school and they just let us fucking smoke was crazy. Yeah, smoke. It was crazy. It was essentially in the parking lot.

Yeah. It was like where you lock up your bikes in the parking lot and the flagpole. Yep. And there was just everyone out there smoking. Yeah, I remember that. Skaters and rock, mostly rock people, and Mexican gang kind of vibe. Skater, yeah. Skater came in. I grew up in New Mexico, so there was and Mexican gang kind of vibe. Skater, yeah. Skater came in.

I grew up in New Mexico, so there was definitely a Chicano faction. Yeah, we had a whole low rider. Sure, yeah. Oh, yeah. Modesto. That's right. Same with Española, New Mexico.

They'd come down. There was a lot of low riders. Yeah, no, and I used to, I loved to draw growing up and then I was an art student in college and so that was sort of my connection with some of those lowrider guys. They had really good art. Oh, yeah?

So we'd hang out in art class together. That's cool. Yeah, because that lowrider culture of car culture and drawing. Yeah, yeah. Almost into tattoos almost. Yeah, they loved to do – I mean they there was like that thing of um i remember them teaching me uh like how to do the the lettering where it looked like it was mirrored like it looked like steel yeah yeah you know what i mean like the 3d stuff yeah exactly yeah

like it's car detailing stuff almost exactly yeah yeah yeah no i i like high school i don't know what i have no sense of it but you kids. It must be interesting to see that because there was definitely a distinction. I like you, it sounds could move freely throughout most of the clicks. I wish I was that cool. Yeah. But I, you know, we were, but I did, I was able to do it a little bit. You weren't a jock? Well, I was a little bit of a jock and then I was also the art guy and I was a decent student. So I felt like I kind of had a foot in a little bit with everybody.

Right. So I enjoyed my high school years. I just can't believe. But there were certain guys that were just, I was like, wow, you really are that cool. Yeah. I know. I had a couple guys like that.

And looking back on it, I don't know how cool they were, but I think I thought they were cool. Usually not jocks. Usually once, yeah. The guys, I remember a guy I went to high school with who was a really talented artist.

Yeah. So talented. And then kind of a druggie, but not a deadbeat, but able to like just go in and out of the two, three worlds. Really talented artist. Yeah. So talented. And then kind of a druggie, but not a deadbeat, but able to just go in and out of the two, three worlds. But he had a thing he did that you were impressed with. Yes.

And he was just cool. Yeah, those guys. He could come hang out with us. He'd go hang out with the druggies. He'd go hang out with skateboarders. He did. He and I, he more than me, but I used to, my in with some of the skateboarders was I'd go to the skateboard ramps and paint on the ramps. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, you'd go, you know, come out and. You were the guy who painted on the ramps? Painted on the ramps. What'd you paint on ramps? You know, just anything that seemed kind of. Were you a graffiti guy? It could be. I guess we did use spray paint and stuff.

Yeah, we used spray paint. But it was more just because you could draw. Yeah. So, you know. I feel like skate culture came a little after me. You know, like it was, like I just missed it. It was just starting by the time I got out of high school. I graduated high school 81.

Okay. So it wasn't quite. You guys weren't out stealing plywood from construction sites to build skateboard ramps? It happened with my brother. Like they were starting to do that. Yeah. Pools. Yeah. You guys weren't out stealing plywood from construction sites to get skateboard ramps? No, but it happened with my brother. They were starting to do that. Yeah. Pools.

Yeah. Yeah, that whole thing. I was never that much of a risk taker in terms of, I just couldn't get a hold of it. Did you skate? No, enough to kind of be able to hang around. Right. But you couldn't compete necessarily. No, no, no, no. You had the skateboard.

No. You had the spray paint, but you couldn't. Yeah, I could go up and down. I could get up, but I wasn't doing anything once I got up there other than just holding on. And I skated around. We skated around. Skated in college, went to class. I was just in San Diego, dude.

There's 50-year-old dudes skating around. Everyone was skating around. Yeah, it's crazy. It's like you're in a break, dude. You break a wall. I went up to see my kid at UC Santa Barbara the other day playing a tennis thing. Yeah. They got a skateboard lane. I've never seen so many girls on skateboards.

Well, now they got the scooter thing, too, that you just pick up on the street. You can just grab a scooter. Yeah, I do that. I love those things. Really? They got them where you live? Yeah. I love them.

I don't see them around here. Maybe they'll come in time. All right. So you're in high school. You're kind of a jock. What's your sport? I was a swimmer growing up. Yeah, swam.

What was your stroke? I was IM, so I did a little bit of everything. Oh. Yeah. And you, oh, the medley? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am individual medley.

I didn't, I swam. Did you swim? Yeah, but not in high school. I was in a swim club that competed, but I was never that good. In New Mexico. Yeah, I had a B-time in breaststroke. That's the best I could do, a B-time in breaststroke. Breaststroke I could handle.

Butterfly, not so much. Backstroke, I always turned over before I hit the edge. And that's it? And not in high school? No, I didn't do any sports in high school. Drugs? No, no. I was more of an art department kid.

I was not a jock. Wait, we have this in common. Yeah, but I was more of an art department kid. I was not a jock. Wait, we have this in common. Yeah, but I was photography. Photography? Yeah. I did photography. And didn't do any sport. I felt like most people who were decent at swimming just swam in high school because that was your thing.

I was not good enough at it. So you had to do, really? I thought high school teams all suck. Yeah, but I was not competitive. I just couldn't handle it, man. Does that mean you had to do, really? I thought high school teams all suck. Yeah, but I was not competitive. I just couldn't handle it, man. Does that mean you had to do PE in high school? I can't remember showing up for it. Really?

Yeah. I have no recollection of PE. Should I circle back to the drugs question? No, I wasn't druggy until later. Until later. Yeah. I dabbled in high school. Yeah, I dabbled in high school, but college is where the drugs.

And then photography. Photography I was very into. Photography and writing. But I was more sort of like just trying to have friends. Just trying to hang out. Drinking beers. We got our driver's license at 15. So we were out waiting in front of liquor stores at 15.

Hey, dude, get us a six-pack. There was that whole thing. And did you, we were part of that, and this is the American Graffiti reference. We were, you know, we are those guys who threw like a dummy in the middle of the road and gift wrapped a cinder block, you know, during the holidays. We did worse shit, kind of. Worse shit, kind of. There was a brief period there where we had a CO2 powered pellet gun. Oh.

And we were shooting out windows. Shooting out windows. Because the sound of a windshield going. That's just good, wholesome fun. Man. That's just good, wholesome fun. It's another time, isn't it? Yeah, we used to go to the parking lot of the mall,

and we'd put shopping carts in front of our cars and get them going about 50, and then let them go. Just watch them destroy themselves. We did ice blocking. We used to go ice blocking. We'd go get blocks of ice in the middle of the night and go out to the golf course and slide down the hills oh that's that seems a little less destructive well it's not good for the golf course oh really yeah but we do that we drink and hang out and at the middle of the night until the golf course cop

shows up and then you try to get him to chase you and then you circle back and you try to steal his steal that light yeah yeah cause you steal that light and then you get it in your car

and now you drive up and down McHenry and you put that spotlight on people's cars and they think there you go stealing the light good times

that is good times good times it is driving culture though I remember there was always that sort of cruising certain areas driving around

yeah take the fire extinguisher go out ask people for directions, and hit them. Oh, that's good times. Good times. All this good, wholesome time. It's all fun until someone has a real gun. You can't do any of this anymore.

Yeah, there were some real guns around. Did you have real guns at Modesto? Well, I remember, no, I don't remember any guys, no guns at school, no guns. Yeah, I saw some guns around. No, I mean, I remember guys who ended up in, guys who went to school ended up in prison. So I know it went further south. For them? A lot of fights.

Yeah. A lot of fights. Yeah. Parties, keg parties. Sure. Fights. Keg parties, destroying someone's house. Exactly.

Exactly. And there was that place up in the mountains where someone would bring a keg. And we went to orchards and canals. Oh, nice. Exactly. And there was that place up in the mountains where someone would bring a keg. And we went to orchards and canals. Oh, nice. Yeah. Party at the orchards. What was the art thing? That was the first passion?

That was what you were into? Well, I just stumbled upon it. I mean, I drew growing up and then- Where'd you get inspired to do that? Was there a role model for that? I mean, that made you- You just dug it? I did, although my dad is very good at drawing.

He really liked to draw, as I recall. I used to do some of that. There's a bunch of people in the family that were good at drawing. My grandfather had this amazing painting up in his house that he did when he was a kid. So I know there's a lot of talented art people. It's exciting. You used to do? I did, I drew. My mother was a kid. So I know there's a lot of talented art people. It's exciting. You used to do? I did.

I drew. My mother was a painter, so I grew up with art. Okay. But I remember I drew a picture, a portrait of John Lennon that won some awards. So I guess I was more of broadly art department, but I didn't take classes. I only took one sort of art class, but I did enter stuff into competitions, drawings and stuff, photography. Yeah.

Did you go to college? I did. And? Studied? English literature, english literature film haven't you didn't go to art oh well you were writing as well yeah i don't know what i was like the drawing thing like i like if i locked in i could do it you know but and i did it for a while but then it was like not unlike photography it's is this going to be my life i wanted to learn a lot of other stuff. Yeah. I wasn't thinking in terms of what I was going to do with my life. So did you actually pursue it into college?

I studied, yeah, I was a fine art major in college. Where? At USC. Really? Did you have- I like the reference. Down the street? For those of you listening.

That's a good school. It's just over my shoulder to the right. Yeah, you can see it. Right down the street. Right down the street. Yeah. Did you have to submit a portfolio to get in no uh usc you did not have to submit a portfolio a few other schools i did have to submit but i went to you yeah went to usc

because i was uh i swam so i i wanted to i knew i was going somewhere where I could swim, and I stumbled across it, really. I went to USC on a recruit trip, and I flew out, and I had this in my head that I might want to be an architecture student. That's a good application. And the architecture, so I went to go meet with the dean of the architecture school, and he immediately told me I couldn't be on the swim team and still be an architecture student. It was just an impossible task. And I asked him – I said to get upstairs to the architecture school. I was like there was down below what looked like an art gallery and what I thought was – looked like ceramics. And he said, yeah yeah that's the art department

now i know memory's not a reliable narrator in my what i recall saying was get the fuck out yeah you can get a degree in that yeah and he's like yeah there's a you know bachelor of fine arts and i was like can i go talk to them? He said, sure. And he walked me down. He introduced me to the dean of the art department. And I said, listen, I'm here. My intention would be to swim for the school. Could I be on the swim team and also study art? And they said, yeah, we could work around it. Yeah.

Wow. And so I went home and, mom, dad. I'm going to be an artist. Can you believe this? Well, first, I felt like, again, my recollection is I came home and, Mom, Dad. I'm going to be an artist. Can you believe this? Well, first I felt like, again, my recollection is I came home and said, you're not going to believe this. Yeah. You can get a degree in art.

You can get a college degree. And they said, yeah. And I said, wait, you'll let me, you know, I can do that? And they said, sure. Wow, that's nice of them. And I was like, oh, my God. I went dropped out of math that day I was I had already satisfied the requirements so

they're going home early every day after that so were you just doing it to swag off or were you doing oh no I was like genuinely like this was mind-blowing did you study did you start any art history and all that stuff yeah I was a BFA you know studio what a studio art yeah I was all bfa you know studio uh what a um studio art yeah um i was all in i mean i slid the chips all the way in i was i loved it you know um did you paint painted i was uh uh not very good at painting um very you know color paint was uh was a real challenge loved drawing loved pencil drawing loved um anything pretty simple and immediate i mean i eventually did you know four years i you know i did a lot of painting

but my paintings became more like drawings and paintings oh yeah it's like painting with acrylic essentially i mean drawing with acrylic in a way yeah and uh and i loved sculpture yeah i loved it yeah do you have some of your sculptures still? I don't have a single, no, not a single one. What were you working with? I did a ton of ceramics. Yeah? And I did, you know, you got to, you know, BFA major. I don't know.

It's not like this everywhere. But, you know, it's pretty well-rounded there. So you're doing a ton. You know, you have to take certain requirements before you sort of lock in during your senior year. Yeah. And then by your senior year, you're kind of doing whatever you want. And you don't have any of the work? I in during your senior year. Yeah. And then by your senior year, you're kind of doing whatever you want.

And you don't have any of the work? I have all my pencil drawings. Yeah. I have all my drawings. Wow. I have a great deal of my drawings.

I didn't create, I didn't keep anything just practical. Sure. What am I going to do with these fucking sculptures? Haul ceramic sculptures around?

Were they just in my 20s when I go from, you know, moved to New York and moved there? I mean, were they free form? Were they abstract?

Or were they figurative? I did this, my senior exhibition was a series of pencil drawings and ceramic sculptures. And the ceramic sculptures were on the floor and pencil drawings were

on the wall, the gallery. And they were, you know those sort of things you see on the side of buildings, those classic ocean drawings where you're split level, you're seeing above the ocean, below the ocean. Oh yeah, sure. So the whales kind of like emerging. Yeah.

It was like this surreal take on those things. Yeah. Where there was these, there was a line, all the drawings were different sizes, but the continuing line of the ocean ran through them all. Yeah, okay. It was always above and below, different degrees of that. And the below had all these odd rock formations at times

that looked almost figurative looking yeah the ceramic sculptures reflected mirrored those rocks rock formations wow man you had full concept it was cool yeah i mean i i think of it i i remember it i'm very proud of it do you you have photo documentation? Oh, sure. Oh, good. You do slides? Yeah. No, I was in. I was on my way to, I was exploring, you know, getting a master's going on. Yeah, I had every intention to continue studying. A life in the arts.

Oh, yeah. That was my. So how'd you get derailed, man? You know, you take a beat and you got a little time. You're enjoying yourself. And you think, you know, I might give this a shot. I might give this a shot. If I'm going to try it, you should try it now.

What, acting? Try to put off the midlife crisis, you know, and just give it... Yeah. You know, I tried to do... I did everything. I did stand-up for a few months and a year or two. No, really? I feel like you were there.

Not that I expect you to remember me. I mean, I remember you. Because you were in New York in the 90s. Yeah, I definitely was. At Boston. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's where I was. Come on.

I swear to God. Yeah. No, I'll tell you. The Boston Comedy Club. I think we were part of a, what did you say? A gang. I think we were in the same gang. No.

So this would be 92, 93? Definitely there. I went to San Francisco in 92 for a couple years, but you might have just caught me. I kind of hit the wall in New York, but I was definitely at the Boston. Hit the wall in New York. That feels like that deserves a better explanation.

Well, I couldn't get into the bigger clubs, you know, and I was trying to stay sober, and then I wasn't, and then it's like I couldn't get in at the Cellar, I couldn't get in at Catch. I was only working at Boston Comedy Club and the improv, the old improv. Yeah, no, see, you were there. I was there doing open mic.

Yeah. On Mondays. Sure. And so, here, this is the gang the gang so i used to spend some time with uh i remember running around with jay moore yeah i remember i remember meeting sarah silverman yep um she was doing open mic that around that time as well yeah and um david tell sure was hosting yeah at the Cellar? No, at the Boston. Boston, sure, yeah. And Louie was hosting. Yeah. And then people, yeah, I remember all of it.

I remember sitting on that back booth. Yeah. I remember before they built that back platform, like when it was just a flat room with shitty tables, and then they built that booth. Oh, that's before, I don't remember a non-platform. Yeah, yeah. And then Barry Katz.

Oh, yeah. I don't remember a non-platform name. And then Barry Katz. Oh, yeah. You really were in it. Never have two words meant so much. He paid for, I did that thing. I passed out the flyers.

Out front. And he gave me time and I'd work it up. And then he had some club on the Upper West Side there, Columbia there for a beat. Right, the West End. Yeah, I remember going up there. Yeah. So you were doing it. I was doing it, yeah.

What the fuck? Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought, what the fuck am I doing? I got to get out of this. No, but I mean, let me track this. So you get out of your fine arts, you got your undergraduate fine arts degree, and then you're like, I'm moving to New York?

In my senior year, yeah. Well, so my wife and I, we met in college. So she had family in New York. So we just went to New York as soon as we got out of school just to kind of go visit. Yeah. Early 90s? Early 90s.

So, yeah, that's like 90, 91. Yeah. And didn't know what we were doing or what we wanted to do. We were both, you know, it's after college trying to figure it out. But I had a, and we went back and forth once there. And I kind of had this, jumping around a little bit in order, one, towards the end of my, I felt like my senior year and right when I got out, I had this,

Towards the end of my, I felt like my senior year and right when I got out, I had this, I had this idea that, well, anything you think of, you know, just take a crack at it just so you know. Yeah, creatively, why not? Yeah, just take a crack at it. So I was like, you know, I've always wanted to try this. So get up and do it. Yeah. Put it together. How were you you know it came uh the first

i think somewhat unusual but i think maybe maybe because i'd i'd always heard like you're just gonna bomb you're gonna bomb for a while i i felt like i had a couple shows right out of the gate that you're like this is easy this is great and then the bombing started right right and then it then it they're like oh but you're writing jokes he's writing jokes yeah writing jokes and uh yeah no i had this whole thing like i thought you know oh i i'm a big steve martin fan and he's in the art world and i just felt like oh that's a you know were you doing oddball stuff? Yeah, I'd come out and I'd start singing If You Love Me and You Know It, Clap Your Hands. It would be like the first word out of my mouth.

I'd just start singing that. Just to get that audience participation, right? Well, it didn't matter, even if they were dead. I responded the same no matter what. I would just go, thank you! And I would just continue singing it with unabandoned enthusiasm, no matter what the response was. And I thought it was conceptually awesome. Just get right to it.

Let's just get right to it. I just want to know now, who loves me out there? I've given you nothing, but I just want to cut to it. So that was, I remember. Solid. I remember. Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.

I'll take it as a genuine. I did. I don't know. I felt like I had one smart joke about art and pornography, about the difference between the two. Yeah. It was a rip off of a a quote from who was the artist someone had because it was in the height of you know well i guess it's just the end of the 80s you know the art and pornography jesse helms that whole thing and there was an artist who had a

really long-winded quote about the um of pornography in one of those trials. And it was all about- Wasn't Zappa? No, it was one of the artists. It was like, if it wasn't Mapplethorpe or someone like that, like this is the purpose of pornography. It's simply to do this, titillate and da, da, da. But it was very well-spoken.

And then I just added, and then if in addition to that, it matches your furniture. Yeah. You know. The art. That makes it. That makes it art. That makes it art, yeah. That was smart.

And I thought that was the closest thing I came to a smart joke. Then you go back to into it if you're happy and you know it. And then I just did, you know. Yeah. MC Hammer, you know. Impression? I don't want to touch this. Yeah? You know. You did some. I felt like everyone did a, it was MC Hammer. Impression? I don't want to touch this. Yeah?

You know. You did some. I felt like everyone did. It was like that. Can't touch this? Can't touch that. I don't want to touch it. I never wanted to touch it.

Why does he keep thinking, I don't want to touch it? Yeah, you did that one. It was just that stuff. It was just like, well, that's a placeholder until I come up with something else smart. So when did you know that that was not the life for you? So I thought two things. My wife and I, first of all, I saw right off the bat, oh, that's a tough schedule. Yeah.

You're just up all night. Yeah. You're just up all night. Running around. It's awful. I also thought a couple things in no particular order one

there's a curse it's a similar curse to I imagine other professions acting has one but maybe it's there's a curse of where every

conversation you start to have you think oh that's a bit oh yeah of course and that was I was really scared

to death of that where I felt like you're completely consumed. Every conversation you had, you got to write it down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And forgive me also, hanging out with comics, not the most fun.

Oh, yeah? Yeah, no, I felt like. Rough crowd. Well, it's just a lot of that. Yeah. It's a lot of. Do you think this is funny? Oh, no, no.

Yeah, that's mine. Yeah, that's mine. Yeah, that's mine. That's mine. There's a lot of that. I remember that. You have a conversation with somebody, are you going to use that? Are you going to use that?

Because I'm going to use it. Are you going to use that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think Mark Mariner already said he was going to use it. No, he said it yesterday. He's already doing something like that. I said that was mine.

No, we talked about it on Monday. And then you both do it. Oh, Jesus. also i just thought um well first of all i was probably scared to death of any type of success at any level really uh yeah a little bit and then i also think that um stand-up comedy and acting uh success comes with so much baggage yeah it's not success in um a lot of other fields there's just so much baggage. Yeah. It's not success in a lot of other fields. There's just so much else that's coming with it. I was scared to death of it.

I was scared to death of, like even if I become mediocre at this, there's a chance I could see myself like, oh, you could get a sitcom. Right. You know, you start to have those conversations. Yeah, he's like this, he's likable sitcom and i'd be like i i felt like i felt like i saw a future where only a few years had passed and i was uh on a sitcom making a lot of money and had no skills

whatsoever you know like i was like practical skills you mean or i mean i could i could see myself becoming successful in a in a in a in in that world and not one note actually be good at what i'm doing oh yeah oh interesting that's kind of scared the shit out of me that's interesting so the fear was like i could do comedy i might not get very good at it and i won't be good at comedy and i'll get opportunities from it and i'll get acting opportunities and i won't be good at comedy. And I'll get opportunities from it. And I'll get acting opportunities. And I won't be good at acting. And I'll be done. This will all be over before I'm 30. I'll be like one of those guys where I'm late 20s and it's done.

It's already done and I'm actually not good at what I'm doing. So from there you said, I'm going to learn how to act. I said, I'm going to take some classes. Yeah. And I think I also probably saw that just, you know. It's a rough life. It's a rough life. And I thought I, I, I was really worried that I was like, wow, it's going to be a very narrow. And I thought, well, I think you start to see like, well, there's these, there's this other group of people that I feel maybe it's a little bit more in my ballpark where, you know, you learn this craft and then you kind of put your toe in over here and you put your toe in over there.

You go do drama, you go do this, you go do that. Well, yeah, but that's interesting because, you know, you wanted to have some sort of skill set. Like with comedy, the other part of comedy is if you do get a few minutes together, you can get seen, That's my point. Yes. Which is hard in acting.

Yes. And I guess at the end of the day, I didn't want to be a comic to become an actor. Oh, yeah. That's nice of you. Yeah. We resent those guys. Yeah. No, I love stand-up.

And I felt like if I was going to be a stand-up, I was like, I want to be a stand-up. I want to be those people that that's what you do. Yeah. I like people. one of those people that that's what you do i like the i like people i i have a lot of heroes in various professions where what they do is what they do right and they do it till they're yeah they're 80 that's right they just and they love doing it right for life and i and i think that i respect and love and admire stand-up comics but i don't think that that's something i thought oh that's something i want, oh, that's something

I want to do until I'm 80. So where'd you take classes? Where'd you start? I went and studied with the late Bill Esper. I've heard him, yeah. He just passed away.

What was that school? The William Esper Studios. Yeah. He, at the time, was running Rutgers School acting program out at the university

and then he had his studio in New York and I went and knocked on his door and said you know I want to take acting classes he's a guy

like I've heard him I can't remember who but he's come up several times a lovely wonderful guy just a just a

as good as they come just a class guy and you loved it remained close you know over the years yeah until he passed away

just shortly. Not long ago? How old? He's old, right? He's a girl, yeah. Must have been in his 80s. Yeah, but I saw him just a year or so ago whenever I'd go to New York,

I'd go see him, check in with him. He was the guy, changed your life. He really did, yeah, in more ways than one. Just a great guy. Yeah? Yeah, lovely guy. So what'd you learn, what'd you do what did you how did you have to get into it well acting wise he was um i didn't immediately go into his class

i showed up i knocked on the door i said i'm you know i'm here i want to take classes i have no experience i've never been in a play yeah i've never been in a high school play i was an art student but you know i took a uh i took a class as an elective. I owed a degree, and I could take anything, and I took an acting 101. At USC? I actually took it through UC Irvine, and I was like, this is a blast, and I ran it by my wife.

I said, you know, I might want to do this. What do you think? And she's like, Tim, just do something. I mean, Jesus, just do it. And he stayed with the same wife for all this time. Yeah, no. Pretty good. Sorry this afternoon we woke up in the same bed together. Did your parents stay together?

No. Well, good. Good that you went the other way. You locked in. Good. I locked in. So Esper is like, you know, he took you in and that was that? And you started doing it? You locked in. Oh, good. I locked in. So Esper is like, you know, he took you in

and that was that and you started doing it. Took me in. I took, first year I studied with a man named Joel Rooks and then Joel only taught first year

and then I went into Bill's class the second year. It's a Meisner program. It's, you know, it's, I don't know if you're that familiar.

Yeah, we talk about it. I tend to talk to actors about acting because I'm acting now. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm doing some acting and it. Yeah, we talk about it. I tend to talk to actors about acting because I'm acting now. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm doing some acting. And it's my class.

How is it? It's good. I'm doing all right. But there's some things that, like my expectations are weird though in terms of craft. Like I feel that like I'm not going deep enough and I don't give myself credit for just being who I am

and it's going to come out anyways. But I always feel like, shouldn't I be losing myself shouldn't I you know like you know and then you start to realize no it's a you talk to people like Jeff Daniels it's like you know just know your face you understand how your face works for those shots you know like there's a million ways to come around it and like there's only a rare couple people that actually physically or completely transform into other humans. Yeah. Everyone else is just pretending. No, I think everyone's pretending.

I don't know about even those people. I don't know about. They got me fooled. You know, what are they doing? I don't know. I mean, the other day, they're just playing dress up and saying the lines that people told them to say. But you were doing, but you,

it was a long time before you really broke in a way, right? I mean, you worked. Yeah, you know, I was a one step forward, two steps back kind of deal. Yeah? Yeah, you know, so you'd have a big thing and then I'd say, Jesus, whoa. Did you do, did you do?

Slow up, everybody. Really? Oh, yeah, it's good. Did you start with theater? I did and then I'd say, Jesus, whoa. Did you do – Slow up, everybody. Really? Oh, yeah. Did you start with theater? I did some theater in New York, started out. And then – yeah, but I got – I was – after I went and studied in New York, and I studied for two years, and I was – best of both worlds, probably. I had success right out of the gate.

On television? Got jobs, both, yeah. Yeah. had success right out of the gate. On television? Both, yeah. Yeah? Yeah, right out of the bat. You know, I just got first year. Got a good look. That's why you got a good look, fella. Well.

You fit on screen. You fit on screen. Everybody fits on screen. No. You just got to find where you kind of fit in, I guess. Were you conscious of that? Which part? That you had to find where you fit in? in I guess were you conscious of that? which part? that you had to find where you fit in I mean it seems like you did a lot of

that took me a while but yeah you kind of figure out that took me a long time I mean to some degree it took me a long long time to be like no no no that's not what I do I don't fit in there that's not a good and you were in that movie to cast yourself is

is probably a pretty good skill to have but you were in like that big movie with jay more and like that so that was right out that was early on that was go 90s yeah that was a big movie so that see that's sort of the generation you come from i mean i guys i uh when i was starting off and starting out in new york the people that so ethan hawke and uh mark ruffalo yeah and um i was just you know enamored by them that was that was the gang and they so that whole same generation but they were all working because i didn't start till my 20s so when i got there there were a lot of people already in their 20s that were well on their way and and um you know I met them along the way so I knew all those people but it took me years and years and years to sort of be part of that conversation right and when you say two step you know two steps forward

one step back I mean what like what were the moments where you had to reel something in or you had to make different choices like how far did that fear of success take you oh it took forever i mean i felt like it took forever i think it was um terrifying you know so like a movie like go you just felt like jesus christ we're about to be you know shot out of a cannon right then you follow it up with something that like no one's gonna see this and you know that i think so you know i shot out of a cannon. Right. And you follow it up with something that, like, no one's going to see this. And you know that. I think so. You know, I don't know how conscious I was along the way,

but looking back, you're like, you know, what were you thinking? I've even seen things that I was in right around that time within a few years of that. Like the Broken Hearts Club? Yeah. I was like, who's going to go to this movie about a bunch of gay guys in West Hollywood? Guess what? No one went to see Club? Yeah. I was like, who's going to go to this movie about a bunch of gay guys in West Hollywood? Guess what? No one went to see it?

No. And then there were opportunities during that time that were clearly huge opportunities. And I was like, no way. No way. You didn't do them? Well, some I just wouldn't do. I just was- But you went with Rockstar which was another but

then there was you see it's one of these things after a certain point you're like okay so two things are happening a lot of times one you're either passing on huge opportunities because you're just like this is stupid and i'm gonna be famous for something stupid and that's what you've convinced yourself of wow who gives a shit no one does that anymore i know i should well what was i even thinking i should have been famous for something stupid you can figure it out work from there exactly or or i would just you know really fuck up a great opportunity like an audition i felt like i would get really tight at opportunities where you're like god what was wrong with you that's a perfect part for you you should have and you blew it and you blew it just got you know just nervous are there movies that you regret turning down no not that i can

think of no no because you know usually the ones that you turn down yeah there's none that i've turned down that you're like oh my god what a great movie right most of them i haven't even seen i there's you've done a lot of movies dude but see then what happens is this is the joke i remember doing is that then you end up basically taking apart a small part for less money yeah in an equally stupid film that you're like what's the point of this why why pass on the lead role in that film to end up being a supporting role in that guy's film next film who's now a huge fucking movie star because he did the dumb one and so now you're broke and you're in shitty movies because you need the work so you're like this is not working out this plan we gotta change

this yeah well you made some mistakes i don't know if they're mistakes or not they're just they are what they are yeah it's part of the trip I got lucky in a way I never had to deal with any I never had to deal with I've never had to deal with any of the failing

on a big on a big scale or success on a big scale right I've never had to deal with I'm the same way you know like

you kind of you just keep pushing and at some point you realize like well there's no turning back now so you know I'm going to have to figure it out. Exactly. I have no other skills.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then you just hope for the best. You're like, well, honey, if this doesn't work out, there's always those ceramic sculptures. What did I do with those? Oh, fuck. Oh, God damn it.

I threw them away. I didn't have room for them. Maybe I can redo it. Yeah. So that's sort of fascinating to me in that, you know, that you're, after years, really, you know, what really put you on the radar was Deadwood, right? I mean, it certainly helped along the way. I don't feel like there was ever one thing that, I don't feel like that's any more significant

than Go or Scream 2. I mean, significant in that it was an amazing, it's a thing that keeps giving. A lot more screen time though. I mean, you were able to. no,

it was a first lead role. It was like a leading role. And you could dig into it because like, you know, you had, Milch is a genius and you had this incredible landscape

and you know, you did some, you could do some real character work and tell a huge arc of a story. Yeah. Yeah, no, that was a good gig. And you're in the Wild West. And it was one of those gigs that just keeps giving. Well, that's what you got the movie now, right?

Yeah. No, I mean it keeps giving in terms of... People knowing who you are? No, no. I mean it keeps giving in that the things i learned on that yeah in that time frame is something that i draw from all the time like what you name it i mean i worked with david so working with david milch what had what is a uh you know he's now a voice in my head that i hear on every set I've been to since.

Saying what? Saying that there's possibilities here that perhaps are worth exploring, that there's opportunities here, that the roadblock here in front of you is actually an opportunity, that there's an idea available that, idea available that you know if you think that what you're talking about at uh at craft service is maybe more connected to the work than you would otherwise had thought of interesting i saw i saw a way of working uh-huh i saw a way of approaching the work that was more creative in a way or more freeing it was more it was inspiring it was it was yeah it was all those

things it was creative but it was that it in I guess in the simplest terms it was seeing someone who I imagine it's a little bit like what you are talking about with your own work. It's someone who did something very simple. They did all the homework. They exhausted all the research, and they put their heart and soul into the piece, and then they showed up, and they were willing to just throw it all out the window and just go with what was the inspiration in front of them.

And it was a way of, I mean, he was the writer and the storyteller, he was the storyteller, but he worked in a way that I thought, that's what I want, that's what I'm looking for. And I'd seen it along the way. I don't know about you, but along the way you see things.

Yeah. In any kind of craft. You see Dave Attell at Boston Comedy. Sure. And comedy and you think oh my god what he's doing there how can i how can i even if i don't pursue stand-up how can i take that and bottle it and take it with me to the next thing that willingness to just push the envelope yeah just just say you know i'm just going to trust that just because this is of interest to me. The willingness to fail. Right. The willingness to clearly spend a lot of time thinking about what he's been thinking about.

Right. And then throw it, seemingly just fucking throw it against the wall. Yeah. And see if anyone else out there yeah feels the same yeah i mean you know it's like something that's quite beautiful and um and simple but hard to trust right for sure i remember showing up on um i did a scene in a danny boyle movie called life less ordinary and my scene essentially was cut from the film. I'm in there for seconds, but I shot. That's why I can never be an actor for a job.

But you know what? It didn't matter. I spent a day with Holly Hunter. Yeah, oh yeah. And that day made an impression on me. It was the first time working on film where I watched someone, where I watched an actor work in a way

where I thought, how do you do that? How do you do? It was that thing. It was that she clearly knew the scene inside and out from every direction. And yet I was standing in front of her and the camera's on her. And, you know, the wind picks up and she turns her face into the wind and like turns away from camera and lets the wind blow on her face while she's talking and then turns back to me and i'm like you know she's fucking up her take right and then i'm like wait a minute that's not what's happening here what's happening here

is watching this woman who's just in the moment and so out of her head yeah that she's just willing to go with you know someone makes a sound off camera she turns and stares at them while she's still talking to me and i'm like oh man she's just she's just in it in it yeah she doesn't you know there's this i remember hearing this phrase once i think it was pacino on that movie where he's looking for richard where he says something like you know every takes a rehearsal and i remember when, you know, every take's a rehearsal. And I remember when I heard it, I thought, that's a great idea.

Yeah. If you could work that way, every take's a rehearsal. But to actually work that way, it's really frightening. Sure. Like, you know, you're trying so hard to get it right. Right. So anyway, I'm babbling,

but you know, along the way you saw that. So working on Deadwood, working with Milch, and then working with the actors that were on that set that were just, you know, along the way you saw that. So working on Deadwood, working with Milch and then and then working with the actors that were on that set that were just, you know, masters at their craft. Yeah. It's a job that keeps on giving. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Because. Yeah. Because, you know, people you want to be having a conversation with. Yeah. So no matter who you're working with at the time, you're like, yeah, but I'm having a conversation with these people I've met along the way. Right. And they've now given me permission to do this. Yeah. This way.

Yeah. And you're always sort of learning and expanding. And if you're working with great actors, then all of a sudden you're like, it's so wild. They just up your game, dude. I went to the season one, I went to the Deadwood premiere. Yeah. And to the, you know, the wrap party.

Uh-huh. And they showed the outtakes. Yeah. And, you know, we're all in this thing and we're all doing all this serious, crazy Shakespearean poetry shit. And I realized, I'm not in a lot of these outtakes. thing and we're all doing all this serious crazy shakespearean poetry shit and uh i realized um i'm not i'm not in a lot of these outtakes i realize these other guys are having way more fun

at work and uh i uh i went to our rap party for the Deadwood movie a few months ago. And God damn if I wasn't all through that fucking outtake gag reel. Oh, good. And I thought to myself, ah, I must be really good in this movie. Or at least you're having fun. I've clearly gotten so much better at my job. If this is any indication how much better of an actor I've become, this is a good sign. Yeah, just having way more fun.

Well, I think that is a lot of it is relaxing into it. Because I had to learn on the job for the most part by doing my little show on IFC. And I knew going in as a comic from watching other comics that you're going to be self-conscious. You're going to be stiff. You're not going to know how to really be on screen. But you're just going to have to take the hit and do it yes and what's the what's the hardest transition i have a theory about this what is the hardest thing about stand up versus acting well i mean meaning where does one not help the other one um or does it well there's a couple things like with stand-up you're you're in

complete control of of what you're doing like you're deciding what you say you're doing this way that way well yeah also this is my material and this is who i am but what i noticed not not so much for myself but i think it happens i've i realize it probably happens with actors all the time is that stand-ups without knowing it are are completely sort of in their head or self-conscious and you know with in it's instinctual it's not you can't sit there while you're doing it and go like i'm too much in my head because even when you're really doing a good job acting you have those takes where you're like i wasn't in that one and that's the one the director goes that was great and that's the trick isn't it yeah see this is i'm aware of this this is the biggest to me i'm always fascinated by watching stand-ups who become actors because

i think the hardest thing is to get out of your head well i'm a lot of my stuff is generated from my head but the one thing i've always done that is unlike a lot of other comics is that most of my generating most of my writing happens live so like, like, I don't write jokes down. Right. I'm going to riff. Right. So, my immediate creative process is in conversation with the audience. Yes.

It's not like I'm going to try this out. Well, that's where it feels like it lends itself, right? Yes, if you can do that. Because any great stand-up is totally dialed into the audience, and they're writing it like a wave. And they're taking their cues from the audience. they're riding it like a wave and they're taking their cues from the audience they know when to shift and when to right because right you do because to not listen to the audience is going to be a total failure they're your acting partner or yeah right or listen to other people but a lot of guys don't do that you know like it is about being

present and then yeah and then just being comfortable in your body that's something you just gotta it's just going to take time. I'm just curious. I hadn't even thought about it. Because I think my primary concern was like, when I first started doing my show, I was like, what do I do with my hands? You know, like, am I, should I,

how do hands work? You know, as an actor, should I be thinking about my hands? Like, I never really thought about my hands, but now I'm thinking about my hands. Yeah. We'll see you already. That's death. is but but but do you play do you ever play that game where you just think about the uh whoever you're in the scene with just what are they doing with their hands well well sometimes with doing scenes as i got better at it you know

because by the last season of my show i was like all right i'm comfortable on screen i can it's a it's also a matter and i know you do it too because watching you is that the thing about comedy is your timing based on laughs yeah and in acting you have to self-generate your timing but there is a timing to there is a tone yes and and you've got to take that time well yeah even if it's not a game where you're trying to you're you know you're being funny and but at the same time you have to pretend you're not being funny. Right, there's that, but there's also sort of like letting moments, like when you're in a scene, sort of go like, all right, I'm going to go ahead and walk away now, but I'm going to take this much time to do it.

Yeah. It becomes organic. Yes, it does. Right. So here's the game I feel like I've been playing the last more or less 10 years. Yeah. It feels like. I feel like I don't know if I started playing it before. is to the whole the goal of the game is to try to remember everything that everybody else did

and not be aware of anything you did interesting and that's a very that is my that is my feel like the pursuit of that has become um how does that an obsession how does that manifest itself what do you mean everything they did in In the scene or? Exactly. So, like now, right? You and I are having this conversation. The idea that I'm just, that let's say we're going to, let's just talk for one more minute. Yeah. And in that minute, my whole goal is to remember everything you did.

So you're not thinking about you. No, no. And you're listening. I'm seeing everything that's going on with you i see everything with you you're your eyebrows you're getting excited you're toning it down you're nodding your head a little bit that moment where you nodded your head there yeah i remember and then all of a sudden you did that thing i love that you did that that was great so you do so when they call cut i'm like i remember everything marked it yeah i'm like

so that was a good take right Right. We can move on. Because you were not self-conscious. I don't remember anything I did. Yeah. I just remember everything Mark did, and I loved all of it. Yeah, that's nice. That's a good exercise. So it's the same game.

If the camera's on me, I try to put it on you. Okay. This is your take. It's not my take. Right. I'm just dialed into you. Yeah. I'm like, wow, how's he doing?

Yeah, yeah. I've had moments where I'm watching when I'm acting with somebody that's great, you know, like Brie or like Betty Gilpin or somebody, and I'm just like, oh, my God, she's really doing it. That's it. Yeah, yeah. That's what you want to be. It is.

That's the game. Sometimes I feel like I'm not in it if I'm doing that. I mean, I'm listening, but like, and sometimes like I get so moved by someone else's performance and I know that it's not I shouldn't be like tearing up or anything no

but like isn't that the best yeah but don't you don't you isn't that the most fun about it's the saddest thing about off camera work

I find you know is that I hate to admit it but when the camera's on the other person I'm like wow look at them

look at them do their thing they're really doing it and I'm like fuck this is what I should be doing this is where you want to be where am i why am i not here yeah that's it yeah to me that's like heaven that's just where you want to live yeah i mean i i have had to learn how to have fun or acknowledge that you know because when you're shooting a tv show you're so much coverage and there's so many takes that it's hard to, at some point,

not go like, oh, God. Of course not. Yeah. No, no. That's, well, no. Listen, it's all in my book on acting.

Don't be afraid to bitch and other tips for young actors. What the fuck? How many ways are you going to cover this fucking thing? Yeah. Let me tell you something, asshole.

The gun can only go off once. So you can cover it from over there and you can cover it from over there. You can cover it from over there. You can get a nice shot from down here, be underneath the horse's dick, up to the gun. You're going to have to pick one. So why not just commit now, and we can all go home early?

It took me a long time to realize that. Oh, my God. It's so hard not to be us. That you're shooting around all this stuff, but in the story, you only use one. You can only use one. You know why they're doing that? This is the downside of television.

What? Well, directors show up without a point of view. They're just here to service the writer, and so they're just going to cover their ass. Right. If they're going to cover it, they'll figure it out in post. Right. This is the...

That's the difference between film and TV? Not a lot of film anymore but certain filmmakers just no this shot is for that moment you gotta have the coverage this yeah i mean or choices pretentious but you know having just done the work with quentin tarantino for a few weeks you know like this shot is for this moment this is the shot and this is the reason why we're doing this shot because this is the story we're telling yeah we're not covering it from every fucking we're not covering it from down the hall and the block and we're not there's no three cameras it's one camera and this is the shot yeah because this is the story and he's the storyteller and he's telling it through images

when you get on a television set you know god bless them but they're just going to cover their ass we're going to start off wide we're going push in. The upside in television is you've given the writer all the power, which, you know, God bless them. They famously have constantly been, you know, first thing you do is fire the writer. I mean, spend more money on hair to fix the film than you will on getting a good writer. But so the upside is you gave the storyteller and the writer some power the downside i felt like a lot oftentimes is you get a director

who is going through the motions as opposed to owning it right because it's not their thing right and so they're they're they're going to show off some some and some flash, but they're not going to commit the way they might. To a point of view. To a point of view. Unless it's theirs, which is rare. Because it doesn't feel like theirs, and they don't want to rock the boat. Unless they were the first ones out. They want to be asked back.

They want to be easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, hey, we're here. But I find that some directors do have some way, because I've used, like when we were shooting my little show, you know, like Bobcat would come in, Goldthwait. Yeah. And, you know, my sensibility is close to his,

but he definitely, definitely could feel a tone. I think that like someone like Lynn, because she makes so many movies, she's good with actors and she's capable of finding that tone. But then there are the cats that are just sort of like, let's shoot it out. Well, yeah, I'm not saying they're not.

They're very good. I mean, it's a wonderful, one of my favorite things about television is having all these different voices and different people come in and the opportunity to have a dialogue with them. And it's an endless education and seeing strengths and weaknesses

what i thought sometimes can be frustrating is let's say i i'm struggling with a scene and and maybe the writer and i both are we're working on it something's not working i hate not being able to go i hate going to the director of that particular episode and saying let me ask you a question what do you think of that sequence there and they're like yeah it's fine and you know it's not i'm like no it's not fine it doesn't fucking work yeah and they're like well you know and i'm like yeah but what do you think and they're like you know my job is not really you know my job is to shoot the scene that they wrote and i'm like well then go fuck yourself yeah you just leave.

Yeah. Give me the cameras. Put them over here. Put them over there. Where do you want to put them? You want them over there? You can go home now. You know what I mean, right?

Sure. They just want to get through the day and shoot it up. Yeah, they're like, yeah, I don't want to cause a bunch of problems. They'll never have me back. There's a season two. Yeah. Right, exactly. They want to be like, hey, that guy was great.

He was nice. And his episode turned out fine. So when you shot the Deadwood movie, was it equal as rewarding? Was Milch, you know, who directed it? Lovely guy, Dan Minahan. Nice to get back into the character? You know, I didn't think it was going to be, but I did like it. I really had a great time.

That's good. I enjoyed it. It was a very rewarding experience, and it was a funny, weird task. I'm excited about it. And also, the other thing I noticed I was going to say at the beginning about Justified that I realized was like, yeah, I'm watching them and I'm into it.

But I realized it's really a classic cop show. Like from the 70s or 80s. It reminded me of McCloud. The first season especially started out that way. you know cop show like from that like from the 70s or 80s like you know you had it was like it reminded me of mcleod the first season especially yeah started out that way it got less so as it went right yeah yeah it gets a little more like it gets more serialized yeah yeah yeah in the beginning it was sort of a like almost like like a lot of things you're we're figuring it out as we went yeah but like it just felt like that like this is that guy kind of he's not a fish out of water,

but he's a fish back home. He doesn't want to be back home. Yeah. And you kind of move through that world. Yep. It was like Beretta or any of those shows. Yeah, it was like Rockford Files. Right, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of cool. Yeah, I know. Because it worked, right? People dug the show. Yeah, well, and I think they especially dug the show. It got deeper, yeah. As it went, yeah. With Weird Walton. Yeah, well, I think they especially dug the show. It got deeper, yeah. As it went, yeah.

With Weird Walton. With Weird Walton. He's great, huh? What a good actor. I'm a big fan of his. Because that thing he did in Vice Principals, I don't even know what that was, but it was something fucking,

it was something else, man. He commits. Yeah. That's what you got to do. You got to commit. good talking to you man hey thank you i i uh likewise and i appreciate the invitation i'm glad we did it you got to go all the way back to west side now this is the perfect time of day to do something on this side you're trying to end it on a sour note no no i was impressed drive home i was you're just gonna

stay here? Yeah. How about I put it this way? So you got to just keep living here? I am. I'm going to keep living here. I'm going to drive out of here. My point was is like, because I live on the east side, like I thought to myself, like, he picked the right time to come.

You know, because like when you've got to travel from where you are or where I am, if you've got like a 10 a.m. or a 4 to 5 a.m. meeting or something, it's like, fuck. No, no, no, no. And I'm not doing it. No, don't do it. I'm not going over there. I'm not going to be the last meeting of the day coming to fucking from the east side. It's not, I don't need the part.

Exactly. Yeah. See, you figured it out. I figured out show business. You clearly figured it out. Look at this. I'm in my house. I can't get. I figured out show business. You clearly figured it out. Look at this. I'm in my house. I can't get over that this is show business.

Yeah, I know. It was funny at the beginning when we started doing this like 10 years ago or whatever, when I was at the old house, people would come like, where the fuck am I? Because I was in Highland Park. And these big stars would come and they're like, what is this? I'm like, this is the future, dude. This is where it's at. It's a good time to do it.

Certainly not me. It changed my you know it was the one part it changed my life and it was the one time in my life i somehow just happened into some good cosmic timing yeah and you know i had a skill set that applied but like somehow i made it i you know it was just one of those things you have no control over you know i had no anticipation or expectation and i get it that's the best, oftentimes those are the best things. It still kills me that we're the only two people in this building. We are, I hope. Let's go downstairs.

We should go down. Thanks, man. Pleasure. Thank you. Okay, that was me and Timothy Oliphant back home in my house. I'm still in Madison. I hope this sounded okay. Okay, no music.

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