WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1026 - Mavis Staples

Episode Date: June 10, 2019

As Mavis Staples turns 80 years old, she continues to perform and record with young musicians and producers across musical genres, just as she’s done her whole life. Mavis talks with Marc about her early years as a gospel singer with her family, the stunned reception they received when they started singing R&B songs, and the life-threatening acts of racial prejudice she encountered in the Jim Crow South. Mavis also details the important moments she shared with her father Pops Staples, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bob Dylan. This episode is sponsored by Starbucks Tripleshot Energy. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? This is Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. i'm still in burlington vermont theoretically i would have gotten home yesterday if you're

listening to this monday but i'm here on saturday doing this i don't know why i've decided to do that time fuck with time thing with you to tell you exactly the process but i think it's kind of interesting like you know god forbid i think it's kind of interesting like you know god forbid i maybe you know all of a sudden this afternoon in burlington decide hey you know maybe i'm going to go off the grid maybe i'm going to relapse on alcohol and just live my life in this small park that's here in burlington that seems to accommodate people who have given up their life perhaps maybe that'll. And then you'll have this intro and you'll be listening to it Monday

and think everything's fine. And then like, where's Mark? So now you kind of know, God forbid, I don't think it's going to happen. But if I'm not around Thursday, somebody checked the park in Burlington. It seemed like a comfortable place to kind of casually spend the rest of your life outdoors.

Big show today. This is very exciting, actually. I talked to Mavis Staples of the Staples family. She's obviously a solo artist, but was with the Staples Singers forever, but has done much of her own work and is a revered and amazing soul singer. And she's here. Some of you know the story. I met her. I ran into her in England on a radio show and I just loved her. And she loved me, I believe. And she came over and it was quite an amazing conversation. She is still going strong and she's, I don't want to say she's old,

but she's no youngster, but she's, her clarity is amazing. Her stories are amazing. Her heart is amazing. And, uh, and it's, it's look forward to it. It's, it's literally going to happen in a matter of minutes, depending on the choices you make around what I'm saying now, or, you know, how long I talk, if you're locked in, I don't know. There is some stuff I want to talk about. I'll tell you about my experience in Burlington,

but first I want to tell you about this, this documentary I saw, because I don't know how long you've been listening, but years ago I had Harry Dean Stanton on. It was not a shining moment for me. I don't think I behaved properly in the, around the fact that the guy was almost a hundred years old.. I don't think I behaved properly around the fact that the guy was almost 100 years old and I didn't feel like I really got through to him. I mean, I did, but I was insecure in the moment. interview her name is Sophie Huber and she recently got in touch with me and she told me she had done this documentary she had made a documentary about Blue Note Records now as those of you know have been listening I've been sort of going down a jazz rabbit hole a bit and it's only

getting deeper and it's I'm getting more into it I'm understanding more about it I just spent a couple hours with Ben Sidron in Madison uh i was there he's been on the show jazz historian and also a amazing jazz pianist and we sat around listening to records he turned me on to some new stuff but he's got a whole wall of original blue note records and i find the universe pretty fascinating so out of nowhere sophie emails me and she's like do you want to check out this doc and i'm like yeah fuck yeah i do and it's it's amazing it puts it puts the entire jazz like a whole swath of american jazz history into a very unique perspective in terms of where it came from the founders of blue note the artists that were involved there There was like recording done.

The sound engineer at the original Blue Note, he was like just a dude, but he didn't have a studio. And they were recording some of those early Blue Note records in his parents' house in the living room. He built a booth in his parents' living room. And fucking Miles Davis would go record in this guy's parents living room so i i'm no pioneer the the garage living room bedroom recording situation has has been happening for decades apparently because i'm reading a book about les paul right now too les paul and leo

fender um the birth of loud about the creating of the first solid body electric guitar. And it turns out fucking Les Paul, whether or not he designed the Les Paul guitar before that, when he was like sort of obsessed with recording, had a studio set up in his garage of his bungalow in Hollywood in the 40s. And he was experimenting with sound out there with all these devices and stuff. And Bean Crosby would come by, all these people would come by but i felt the kindred spirits you know what i mean i'm not at the cutting edge of anything really other people have done i mean arguably bigger things in their garage or parents living rooms than uh than i've done okay so that guy had miles davis in his parents living living room. I did have President Obama

in my garage, but did we make amazing sounds? Did we make amazing jazz? Did we riff? Did we take it places? Kind of, but all right, maybe I'm on the same level. I'll take it. Thank you for giving it to me, me. So the documentary is called Blue Note Records Beyond the Notes. And I tell you, man, it just put the whole thing into context, the social element of it, the societal element of it, what that jazz, what the evolution of jazz out of swing into bop, into hard bop, into these different definitions, what these guys were really pushing towards, what the element of improvisational freedom really means. It kind of really got at the heart of the art of improvisation, you know,

where and why and what propels it. And it also integrates the sort of history of Blue Note into early hip hop and to how it influenced that. And then, you know, made a fairly deep argument that hip-hop is the natural sort of extension of the impetus of jazz improvisation and of jazz in general. And then I got into, then I started listening to Flying Lotus yesterday, walking around Burlington. I'm like, because Anderson Pack talked about him. And there's a Kamasi connection. There's a Kendrick connection. And hip-hop's not really my world, but I'm pretty dug into the jazz trip. So now I'm

walking around listening to Flying Lotus with that set of glasses on or that perspective. And I'm like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. I get it. This does make sense. But the doc is great. Apparently the doc is played on the festival circuit

and the filmmakers are now self-releasing it. But I wanna tell you now when and where the upcoming screenings are happening. It opens at the Metrograph in New York City this Friday, June 14th. And then it's opening in Los Angeles at the Lamley Santa Monica on June 28th, and I'll try to keep you posted about more screening dates because I think you'll like

this movie. If I'm speaking to you, you know who you are. So I've been in Burlington for a few days, and we're assuming I'm home now. I've established that with you. That's the timeframe. That's the arc. And it's nice, man. I haven't been up here in a long time. And last time I was up here, I was at the Flynn Theater. Now I'm doing this club, the, what is it?

The Vermont Comedy Club. And I was trying to sort of go back in my mind to other times that I'd been to Burlington. There used to be a gig up here. It was called The Front. It was a rock club. I remember doing a show there with David Cross. It's like a real memory for me because we drove up from Boston to do this one-nighter. We probably had gone to Killington to do a gig there at the

ski slopes called Mother Shapiro's. And then there was another one but whatever but i remember the front because i remember dave in this large rock club was on stage and he was tanking hard and i remember standing at the side of the stage giving him the wrap-up sign and him being mad about that he was mad about it because it wasn't, whatever was important to me was not important to Dave. And that's why Dave's Dave. And that's why I'm me. But I was curious when I got up here where it was,

where it was at. And it turns out the place that was right next to where I am, it's right next, it's a ski store now. And apparently I did a search on Google, where you search, and I was trying to find it. And it turns out that Phish sort of was, it was sort of one of their home bases. They did like 50 shows there.

So even though a lot of you want me to interview Trey, and even though I've not ever listened to one Phish record, I have shared the stage with the fellas. You know, we riffed out in the same venue back in the day. Now it's a ski store. So I don't know. I don't know what that does for my memories. It doesn't matter.

But I have been getting out. I have been walking around. I ate twice at this place called hen of the wood which is an amazing restaurant my buddy jimmy came up from new hampshire took a break from like sitting alone by himself in the woods and came up to hang out and we're having a nice time we're just kind of getting started about to walk the trails and you know in clothes that weren't really walkable but this was this was a great moment of you know kind of i couldn't tell it's some sort of entitlement but we're about to start up the hill and there's a woman there who looked like she was about to start up the hill

and she was holding her phone and she uh she looked at us and she got there was a fork in the trail there was a fork in the trail and she looked at us and she uh she goes which way are you going and we're like i don't know i guess we'll we'll go over that way she's like oh good because i'm about to start a conference call and it's like what the fuck like oh i'm sorry are we in your fucking office jesus christ man it was a good moment but like part of me because maybe because i'm a libra i you know later i don't even know why i said that but later i thought like well maybe she didn't want to bother our hike maybe maybe she didn't want us to feel uh intruded upon while she's yelling at her, you know, into a phone just to be heard on a conference call in the middle of the woods.

But I'd like to stick with the other way that she thought like, you know, this was her space to do her work and not a public, beautiful outdoor place. But that was nice. I walked around. I got some woods and and I you know with it sort of a mild sort of sub panic about about deer ticks and Lyme disease and because I just got back right now just reminded me apparently I I have to check my body for ticks and from what I understand I got to really check it for ticks like I got a yeah I didn't roll around in the dirt but apparently these ticks are crafty so i'm gonna be going in i'm gonna be gonna be taking a good

look at some stuff that i probably don't look at that intensely on a day-to-day basis so there you're all caught up you feel better so mavis sta a legend, a wonderful woman and a great artist, has a new album out. We Get By, it's called. It's available now wherever you get music. She worked with Ben Harper on this, who I also am a big fan of. And I hope you enjoy this time I spent with Mavis Staples. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations? How a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category?

And what the term dignified consumption actually means? I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. How often do you come out here? Do you like it out here? I come, I love it. But I love it, you know, just for coming out here and getting back to Chicago. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. But I come maybe twice a year. Yeah. Twice a year. And if I got a new record, I'll come and hang with the band. Yeah. You know, rather than bringing them all to Chicago.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But did you record it out here? You didn't record it out here, did you? We recorded it out here. This last album. You did? We recorded Chicago. Oh, yeah. But did you record it out here? You didn't record it out here, did you? We recorded it out here. This last album. You did? We recorded it out here, yeah.

I talked to Ben. Hindley, Hindley Studio. Oh, yeah. Is that in Hollywood? Yeah. Oh, it is? It's in Hollywood. I talked to, you know, Ben Harper did this one, right?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've had him in here. I had him in here with Charlie Musselwhite. Is that right? They were both in here. Oh, I know. That was awesome. Playing the blues. Yeah. He he's a smart guy i like the way the record sounds it's very you know how does that work with you because you've worked with so many producers

do they just call you up and go like i wrote you a bunch of songs mavis no well well well what what what what ben yeah ben had written me one song, Love and Trust. Right. And that song, I ran into him again. We run into each other on the road. Yeah. And I ran into him. I said, Ben, that Love and Trust, man, every time we sing that song,

the audience goes woof, woof, woof, crazy. And I said, you've got to write me another song. He said, well, Mavis, how about I write you maybe 10 or 11 songs he said yeah we can do an album together I said oh man that would be awesome and that's how this got started

and I got to talking to Andy Coughlin for my label Anti Records you're still on Anti Records? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm still there. I ain't going nowhere.

I ain't got time to go nowhere else now. Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. But Andy, Anti has really been good for me. Yeah. You know, I was at a point when right after Pops passed, I didn't know what I was going to do. And then I took a year off, period. I told Mike Kappas, don't book me for a year because my sister,

Cleedy, was getting sick, and I didn't know what it was. You know, I didn't know what was going on. And I knew it was this dementia stuff, but I didn't know. I said, I'm going to stay home and see about Cleedy. Yeah. So for a year, I didn't work at all, but then after I got everything, I got a good home care, care giver, and then I wanted to work again.

Sure. And my campus, he said, Mavis, you need a record, and you're going to need, you know, you can't just, you haven't been out there for a while. So I couldn't find anyone to take me no one was good i called you mean a label i called all the labels yeah i called every label because you know staple singers we we've been on just about every label out there i know but i what i wasn't thinking you know when they would tell me no, and I got so disgusted, I said, nobody is taking me.

I was determined. I went to the bank, got my money. I said, I'm going to make me a record. And you just did it? I did it. I did it. And I made that record. Which one, Living on a High Note?

No, no, no. Which one? Have a Little Faith. Oh, yeah. Have a Little Faith. But that was on Alligator Records? That's why it was on Alligator. That's a great record. Yeah one? Have a Little Faith. Oh, yeah. Have a Little Faith. But that was on Alligator Records? That's why it was on Alligator. That's a great record.

Yeah, it's a good record. I mean, I paid everybody to do this record for me, with me. And then, like, the same thing. I started trying to shop it. Nobody would take it. And at the last minute, just as I was about to start selling it from the trunk of the car, alligator came in. Right.

And I was so grateful. Yeah. And after about a year with the alligator, something went down that Andy could get me. So they got me. And I've been with them ever since. So that was an in-house thing you didn't go looking for them alligator

just switched you over no alligator changed into oh yeah it was in-house thing oh yeah yeah

they they let me go on to anti records and that's the one you did a bunch of covers of like you know hip people

like Nico Case and Nick Cave. Right, right. And that dude M. Ward produced it. Living on a High Note. Yeah. That's that one. I told them, I said, I want some people that are young.

Yeah. I want some new stuff, you know. Right. But then. Oh, Benjamin Booker. Benjamin Booker. He's good. Valerie June. Yeah. And Ben was on there. The Head and the Hearts. Head and the Hearts. Right. But then. Oh, Benjamin Booker. Benjamin Booker. He's good. Valerie June.

Yeah. And Ben was on there. The Head and the Hearts. Head and the Hearts. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Hopper. Yeah.

That's what. That's what I've been trusting. That's where that came from. That's what I've been trusting. Yeah, I was looking for. And one of the little girls from the Head and the Heart, she was so young and she was so nervous because I told him i said give them my phone number if they want to call me she was nervous to sing with you she wanted to

know miss staples what what what do you what are you looking for in a song i said well i just want a good song good lyrics good i said do you know me? Yeah. She said, oh, yes, ma'am. And I remember this little girl. Her name was Chastity. I said, well, Chastity, just listen to some of the stuff that I've done. I just wanted something new, but it could still be in the vein that I've been singing about freedom. So was it If It's a Light? Oh, yeah. you know, but it could still be in the vein that I've been singing about, about freedom, you know. So was it If It's a Light?

Oh, yeah. If It's a Light. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. If It's a Light. Yeah. That's the name of the song. And I love it. I love it. It came out really, really nice. Well, it's like, because I was listening to this one, you know, because like there's definitely a sound like, you know, you're going to sing the way you sing, but all these producers bring a sound, right? Oh, yes. And it's sort of interesting to me.

You listen to Ben, and Ben's got sort of a pretty deep blues groove, and it's pretty spare. And then I listen to that one you did with Ry Cooter, and he's interesting because he's also got a blues groove, but it's a little more international. It's a little more weird. Right, right. But that one you did on your own on Alligator, I mean, you co-produced that thing, right? Yeah. I mean, that thing's like, that's more like the one with Ben, right? Right, it is.

It's just stripped down. Well, see, and that's what I hear in Ben. See, that one, Have a Little Faith, that was the sound of the staple singers. And I told Ben, I said, Ben, I feel like I'm in that room. I'm singing with my family. Your songs. See, I had a little room that I would record in. I called it the prayer room.

I said, okay. I said, in that prayer room, I hear, man, it sounds like I'm singing with the family again. Oh, yeah. You know, because the way he write, his lyrics are beautiful, but his melodies are totally different. Well, see, I was with Tweety. Yeah, three records you did with Jeff.

Jeff Tweety, yeah. And he's like, he's a heady guy, but he's a real, like he knows how to put together a nice American music. Oh, man. Oh, man. Beautiful, beautiful. I have been so blessed. Well, what do you think the difference is between Ben and Jeff?

It's just the, not attitude, it's the- Yeah, the feeling. The feeling's the feeling. The feeling, the feeling. Ben is a blues man, really. And I told Ben on a couple of those songs, I said, you got me singing the blues. You know that? Any way, any time, anywhere.

But that's not too far from gospel. No, no, no, no. It's all there. I feel like gospel and blues are first cousins. So I don't feel bad. But I told him, I said, he's been wanting me to do a blues album. Totally blues. So he snuck it in on you?

He snuck it in on me. And his lyrics, you know, the way he writes, some of those songs you think I'm singing to a man. Yeah. And I said, but it's all right. It's all right because I am grown. I'm a woman. I've been there.

Yeah. You know, but I don't want to fool my fans. Yeah. And Ben said, maybe anything you sing is going to be all right with your fans. Anything. Well, who do you who do you usually feel you're in relationship when you're singing with god i mean yeah oh yeah god is my man yeah god is my man you know and look 80 i i don't have no boyfriend

that ship has sailed as up but but but now if, if a dude come along, you know, they always come, and they're older guys. And I just tell them, oh, no, you're too young for me. You're too young for me. Well, older at this point would be older, older. Older, older. I tell you. I tell you. Bob Dylan is even too old.

You know, but. Well, I mean, that's interesting to me, too. But we'll come back. Let's go back around. Because, like, you know, I was listening to some of the Staples stuff. I mean, the amazing thing about those records, they were so stripped down. The production was very straight ahead. And, you know, it was all, like, driven by.

Pops had that vibrato sound that was uniquely his and he had those beautiful little riffs he'd do right and uh you know but that like you've done a lot of different sounds because i noticed in in in in your history you know even when you were playing with the family and you started doing solo stuff you had guys like you know like steve cropper right right when i was was that when the whole family was at stacks that and you started doing solo stuff, you had guys like Steve Cropper. Right. Was that when the whole family was at Stax that you did those records with Steve Cropper? Oh, yes. Yes.

Steve produced the very first record on the Staple Singers out of Stax. He produced it first. And from there, we went to Muscle Shell. But you did your solo with him too, right? I did. I did. Because it seemed like a shift because I listened to some of the real old stuff,

like Uncloudy Day and the gospel stuff. Yeah, yeah. And it was just interesting that there were these minor shifts and it seemed like at that point when you guys were really doing more R&B that what Cropper was trying to make a Mavis record, we were just going to get an R&B single out of you yeah yeah you know they had the hooks they were tight you know right right but when you started you know what was that what was that world like because you know I know other people come out there like what first comes to mind is like Sam Cooke and the Soulsters but I

mean when you were when you guys were touring as a family, when you started doing that, it was a whole circuit, right? There was a lot of people doing it, right? That's right. That's right. But it was spooky. It was very spooky. Sam, they just denied. He had to go.

We were at the last gospel program that Sam did. With the Soulsters? With the Soulsters. Uh-huh. Memphis, Tennessee, With the Soulsters. Uh-huh. Memphis, Tennessee, at the Mason Temple. Uh-huh. Masonic Temple. And Sam, he had recorded,

Wonderful, God is so wonderful. Uh-huh. Then he come with, Lovable, my girl. And he changed his name. He switched it from God to the girl. Man, listen. Those old sisters back in the day, they stood up.

You get out. We know that's you singing them blues. They throw their purses. Throw anything. Really? Oh, man. And Sam, I felt so bad. He just put his hands up and he walked off stage.

Really? So after he had the hit record. Yeah. And he came back and did a gospel gig. the the women were like uh-uh no no really you get out we know that's you singing well see i was scared to death singing my songs house is not a home and those songs with steve cropper i don't know what i is. I was singing Otis Redding. Yeah. You know?

And it was amazing. The people didn't bother me. Huh. They did not bother. But you know what they did? Huh. The staple singers. Yeah.

They jumped on us for doing I'll Take You There. And they started, now we know the staple singers singing the devil's music. Really? They were singing the devil's music. Oh, man. We had to do so many interviews. I tell the people, look, the devil ain't devil's music. Really? Y'all singing the devil's music. Oh, man. We had to do so many interviews. I tell the people, look, the devil ain't got no music. Yeah. And we're singing, you have to listen to our lyrics.

We're telling you, I know a place. Ain't nobody crying. Ain't nobody worried. Ain't no smiling faces lying to the races. Yeah. Where could we be taking you but to heaven yeah we talked to them i mean and finally we were invited back to church they had dismissed us this so this is after how long so you guys are you how old are you when you start singing with the with the

staples singers i mean i was i was i was like 10 years old right then when we started but before that we sing around the house i was about eight years old but so but started. But before that, we'd sing around the house. I was about eight years old. But you guys were dug in. We were dug in. Our first record, I was 13. On VJ Records.

On Cloudy Day. On VJ Records? VJ Records, right. Was that mostly a gospel label? No, no. It was blues. It was all blues. Jimmy Reed.

Oh, yeah, that's right. Jimmy Reed. Cowden Wolf. Everybody was on. Sweet Home Chicago. Sweet Home Chicago. Jimmy Reed's the greatest. Did you know that man yeah i knew jimmy reed and they would have to lock jimmy reed in the room because he'd get so drunk he couldn't go to the show so once they got him in a room they would lock him in he couldn't get out until showtime

they're protecting their show they didn't want they didn't want any walkouts they want no walkout refunds they wanted to hear guide me running yeah yeah oh he was bad yeah so okay so but you guys aren't doing that circuit you you have the vj record but it's a gospel record it's a gospel and then like see vivian carter let me tell you how that came about my aunt katie we were rehearsing yeah and on and on the living room floor at home and katie lived with us yeah she came through one night she said sh, y'all sound pretty good. I believe I want y'all to sing at my church Sunday. We sang it in Katie's church. Vivian was in the audience.

And Circle Beyond Broken. It was the only song that Pops had taught us all the way through. Right. Vivian called the next day and said, Staples, you and them children need to be making records. Pops said, no, Vivian. I ain't going to let my children make no records because I don't know nothing about them records. Yeah. I don't know how. He wasn't a professional musician at the time? No, no, Vivian, I ain't going to let my children make no records because I don't know nothing about them records.

Yeah. I don't know how. He wasn't a professional musician at the time? No, no. He had another job? He worked at Crane Company, a construction work. But he wasn't thinking about us being professional. We wasn't thinking, none of us was professional, you know.

Yeah. We were just singing around the house to amuse ourselves. Yeah. professional you know yeah we were just singing around the house to amuse ourselves yeah and and uh what by the time i got 13 pops called vivian he said okay vivian i can let my children sing the record now because yvonne my other sister yeah she had gone and got this big red book this business of me she learned about it she got a music business book yeah yeah she helped you're the youngest i'm the youngest yeah yeah okay so she said we can do this she read about oh yeah she read all about it and then he

had people like mahalia jackson and the soulsters dicks hummingbirds all of them would tell pops about the record business but it's like a community right yeah right you know gospel yeah we'd help each other mahalia Jackson, huh? Oh, Mahalia Jackson. She was mine. She was my favorite. Yeah. My favorite. First female voice I heard.

Some voice. Took me. Oof. Oh, man. Yeah. And she taught me how to take care of my voice. She did? Oh, she did.

Like, what'd she tell you? Well, she told me, we were opening. Pops came home from work one day. He said, Mavis, guess what? We're going to open for Mahalia Jackson Monday night at Tabernacle Baptist Church. And I was so excited. I was so excited.

I would sing all, but the bad part about it was I had to wait the whole weekend. It was a Friday. Monday night. So I would sing, get in the mirror. I'd sing at Mahalia Jackson. Mama told me, she said, Baby, baby, don't get on her nerve here.

I said, Mama, I'm not going to get on her nerve. Mama had Yvonne and Cleary watching me. I was this little skinny girl. And just lucky for me, Sister Mahalia Jackson was dressing in the same dress. She came in already dressed. Pops would call her Sister Mahalia Jackson was dressing in the same dress she came in already dressed pops would call her sister Mahalia Jackson so I thought sister was her first name right she came in I hit the floor and Yvonne and Kalita they didn't even know I was gone I was up there right over she was so tall she looked like a giant princess to me. And I said, well, hello, Miss Sister Mahalia Jackson. And she started laughing.

She said, well, how are you, baby? I said, oh, I'm fine. My name is Mavis. She said, oh. I said, and I sing, too. She said, oh, well, I want to hear you sing. I said, oh, you'll hear me. I sing loud.

I sing. Man, got got in there I sung my song come back she said you know you're a good little singer I said thank you getting ready I got my jump rope yeah I was on my way out the door she said hey where you going I said I'm going outside to jump rope because you know as children we didn't like to hear the preacher yeah we were we like the choir and the singer but we get out when the preacher is coming yeah so i had my jumper she said you come here she strapped felt my neck felt my chest put my little training bra off she said look you this off. Don't you know you're damp? I said, no, ma'am. She said, yes, well, you're damp. And you don't go out in the air like that. She said,

you want to get to be an old lady like me, don't you? Sing a long time. I said, yes, ma'am. She said, well, you tell mama to give you one of your brother's t-shirts. You take all this stuff off, and you sit down, and you get dry before you go outside. Oh, man. And today, I bring a dry T-shirt with me named my brother's, but I get dry before I get. I still have my voice. Thanks to Sister Mahia Jackson. She taught me that. A simple tip.

A simple tip. I tell you. And I called up my friend, my idol, and my teacher, because she started coming to the house. Mama and Yvonne, they would fix barbecue every Fourth of July. Our backyard would be full of people. And from Jesse

Jackson, Curtis Mayfield, Jerry Butler, everybody come to the stableples barbecue. Sister Mahaney was there. Mama invited her. She called Mama before she came. She said, Sister, you got them bones on?

Mama said, Oh, yeah, you come on. The bones are ready. Because they start like at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning fixing them. Mama would make this homemade ice cream, banana. And Sister Mahaney, she would call me, come here, baby. And I'd say, yes, ma'am. She'd give me her bowl, get me some more of that ice cream. I'd say, yes, ma'am.

Oh, man, growing up, I had a beautiful, beautiful childhood. You know, people say Michael Jackson, he didn't have no. I had my childhood. That sounds great. And you were with your family for so many years. Right, right. And they're your family, you know. My family.

Yeah. And pops would come and, don't you know, pops tried to help them other companies try to get me. They wanted me to sing the blues. They wanted me to sing what Aretha was singing. And pops said, baby, these people are offering you a lot of money. Don't you want to go and sing? I said, no, Daddy.

I don't want to go sing for them people. I don't want to sing that. I want to sing with the Staples. You know, that was my security. I was too chicken to do that. But you were doing both, right? I mean, you did a few. Yeah.

Well, after I was a woman. Right. When you were a kid, they were trying to get you. They were trying to get me. Make some soul hits. Mm-hmm. Some R&B hits. Right, right.

So you were dug in with the gospel thing, and you did that for, like, what, a decade? Oh, man. I mean, like, straight-up gospel. Like, I think what it reminded me of is, like, when Dylan went electric. Yes, yes. All the folkies were like, what the hell is happening?

We're not going to stand for this. And it seems like he had a similar experience moving from gospel to what they thought was R&B. Right. Right. And in my mind, it doesn't seem like that big a jump. No. No. But there were church people that were like, that's it.

That's right. It's over well see what we did it was it was it was it was easier for the staple singers because we moved to folk song when we started going to um um new hampshire to the folk festival to newport newport we started going to newport we started seeing these flower children we started hearing their music and pops we talked daddy said these people this this music that they sing is not far from gospel it's about love they're singing about love and and he said we can sing that when he heard dylan yeah dylan started Pops said, listen, y'all, listen to what that kid is saying.

He's saying how many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man. Pops would tell us stories about when he was in Mississippi. If a white man started coming down the street on the same side street he's on, Pops would have to cross over. He couldn't walk. He said, we can sing that. And literally, you know he he knew it you know how many roads must a man walk down and so we got home we got bob dylan's album and we learned blowing in the wind right so and then we heard something

happening here steven still song oh man we would hear Pop say, and anything that Pop said, we're going to say it. So that's interesting because you said that too, like in talking about doing a blues record or not doing a blues record, that if you can't attach what's being sung to your experience, you don't find that you're going to want to do that. Right, right. find that you're going to want to do that. Right, right.

You can't, I don't, you know, a song, the song has to have a certain message in it for me to sing it. But like you say, I sang Houses Not a Home and those songs with Steve Cropper. Then I was ready, i was 20 something years old then after your first album my first album that was in 1969 yeah i was in fact i was 30 yeah i had been married i had been divorced i'd been in love you know you've been through it i've been through it man and you know a singer wants to sing about her life. So I have one song I have learned to do without you. And, man, my brother told me, he said,

Mavis, every time Spencer come in the bar, somebody jump up and put a quarter in the jukebox. They put, I have learned to live without you. And maybe you'd be singing all over there. People would be looking straight at him. I'd say, well, that's what it was all about. I was singing my life. What happened in that marriage?

Oh, I sent him home. He wanted me to quit. He wanted me to stop singing. I said, I was singing way before I met you. Yeah. And this singing is my life. Yeah. You know, he jumped up, he up, and I would stay at my sister's house till late.

Yeah. Didn't want him bothering, messing, trying to make love to me or anything. Trying to get you pregnant. Trying to get me pregnant. Yeah. That'll do it. No, no. We'll get it. Stop singing. I wasn't having it. Yeah. Uh-uh. Not the way he was acting, you pregnant. Trying to get me pregnant. Yeah. That'll do it. No, no. We'll get him to stop singing.

I wasn't having it. Yeah. Not the way he was acting, you know, because I wouldn't stop singing. So one night I came home. He was gone. I called Pop. I said, Pop, Spencer is gone. He hasn't left me.

Daddy said, Mavis, you stay right there. I'm coming to get you. I said, oh, no. No, don't come get me. I said, I'm having my locks changed. I've already't come get me. I said, I'm having my locks changed. I've already called the locksmith. I said, I ain't going nowhere. Don't you know the next morning he tried to get in that apartment?

He wouldn't fit. I had a new lock. And that was that. That was it. That was it. But then it took me the longest. He wouldn't come to court. It took me the longest to get the divorce.

That's why I never got married again. Yeah. I shacked. I was shacking after my marriage. I was shacking longer than I was married with my next boyfriend, the one I truly loved. Yeah. You know, but I was afraid to get married again. Yeah.

What do you got to go through that for? You know what I mean? No. No need. No need. Wait, did you want, you never wanted kids? Oh, Lord, I wanted children. Yeah.

I wanted children. That was the only thing that hurt me so bad. Right. That I didn't have any kids, you know, because I didn't want to have any out of wedlock. Right. You know, while I was married, I would like to have had some children. Yeah. But this man started acting crazy.

You know, I think we went to Japan. And I sent... The singers, the group went to Japan? Yeah. Oh, man, we went to Japan in 1964. Wow. 64. The Japanese ladies were still wearing those little wooden shoes and the kimonos

and still couldn't walk in their husband's shadow. Pops and Purvis had it made. Me and Cleary, we get off the train, put our luggage down. These little ladies come running, running. We think they're coming to greet us. They come and get Daddy's luggage and Purvis' luggage, and they run off with it. Me and Cleary had to take our own luggage. But we

were there. We were over there for a month. A month? A month. It was some kind of government funding they were doing. For the arts? For the arts. And Pops felt like we could go. Why not?

Stay the month. See the world. That's right. All over go. Why not? We stayed a month. You see the world. That's right. All over Japan. We even learned a Japanese folk song. Oh, you did? Oh, man. And you sang it that night? And you sang in Japanese? We sang in Japanese.

And every time we started singing it, people... Oh, yeah? And... The crowd goes crazy. The crowd goes crazy. The crowd went crazy. They would go crazy. And Pops told the boys, he said, look, wait a minute. Mavison wrote this stuff out because I would write it the way they were sounding. And we got to know what this song mean.

We don't want to be saying something that we didn't know what. And they said, oh, Papa San, Papa San, this song, this folk song, the fishermen are asking the seagulls, will there be any fish today? And the seagulls say, don't ask me, ask the sea. That seems nice. It was cool. Yeah. It was cool.

So Spencer got mad when he went to Japan. Was that the point? That was the point. That did it. That did nice. It was cool. Yeah. It was cool. So Spencer got mad when he went to Japan. Was that the point? That was the point. That did it. That did it. Because his father and I were really good friends. Spencer's father. His father.

Mr. Leak. And Leak did. This is The Undertaker. I married The Undertaker. I get mad. We have an argument. I wasn't about to lay down. I don't want no embalming leading coming in there.

And if he got a headache, he wouldn't lay down. That's how stupid the, I won't say stupid, but that's how morticians act. They're afraid? At least a little afraid. They have a headache. That's right. They're afraid they ain't going to wake up. Oh, really?

Yeah. That's a lot of fear in the house. A lot of fear. And I ain't going to have no business marrying that man. Oh, man. Well, you live and learn. You live and learn. You are right now.

I won't do it again. I told Prince. Prince, when I told him. You did two records with Prince, right? Yeah, two records. And Prince and my letters is in each one of those songs. I had to write to Prince because he wouldn't talk to me. He's so shy. So you wanted to work with him and you were writing him letters?

Is that what you mean? I would write him legal pad letters, 14, 15 pages at a time. And he wrote a song. When I told him I was married, he wrote me a song called The Undertaker. Uh-huh. Every song on them album, the voice album, has something from one of my letters. Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

So you're in Japan in 64. Yes. And the first time you did Newport with the family was what, in the mid-60s? Newport, yeah. Was that before or after you guys were working with Martin Luther King? Was that before? Oh, no, no. We were working with Martin Luther King already.

Yeah. We were working with Martin Luther King already. Yeah. In 64, we started working with Dr. King in 62 because we were at his church in 1962. And that's when- In Montgomery? In Montgomery. Yeah. Pops came in one day.

He told us, listen, y'all, this man Martin is in this town, and he has a church here, and I would like to go to his 11 o'clock service. This is a Sunday, and we didn't have to work until 8 o'clock that night so he asked us if we wanted to go we say yeah pops we want to go yeah we all went to Dexter Avenue Baptist Church we were we were ushered in and seated someone let Dr. King know we were in the service and Dr. King he knew you already he knew the music you guys had hits already yeah oh we had hits yeah he said we're happy to have pop staples and his daughter's here this morning and we hope you enjoy the service well we enjoyed the service after the service dr king would stand at

the door and shake the worshiper's hand that they filed out right so everybody filed out. Right. So everybody filed out. Here come Pops. He shook his hand. But Pops stood there and talked to him for a while. And he finally came on out. Me and Yvonne were clearly waiting for him. He finally came on. Get back to the hotel. He called us to his room again. He said, listen, y'all, I really like this man's message.

I like his message. And I think that if he can preach it, we can sing it. And, man, we started singing freedom songs. We wrote March Up Freedom's Highway. That was the first one we wrote. Now, this is in 1963. Yeah, this is before we went to Japan. Yeah.

So that's how you got some notoriety, because that's when all the civil rights stuff is really starting to take hold, right? Right, right. Those are the big years. Those were the big years. In fact, that was the year a guy in Memphis, Tennessee, I've driven from Jackson, Mississippi, to Memphis, Tennessee, pulled in a service station, and this young, white, tall, skinny young man came over to

the car service, and when he finished getting the gas, I asked him to wash the windshield because there were many bugs on him. I had driven from Jackson, Mississippi to Memphis, and he looked at me a long time. Then he took a rag, and he started swishing around. And then he came to my window to get his money again. And I told him, I said, I'd like a cash receipt. And that's when he hit me. N-word.

N-word. If you want a cash receipt, you come over to the office all right i'm i'm out here on the street the office is way over there pops is sitting there pops said mavis pull over there i pulled over to the office pops went in and and uh i saw this this young man i'm sure he thought it was just two ladies and a man with white hair yeah old man pop one oh yeah so pops went in there I'm watching and I possible I'm sure pops Adam why you talk to my daughter like that why you call her a name like that yeah I saw him shaking his finger in pops face and the next

thing pops clocked him knocked him he knocked him. He knocked him down. He got up fighting. They fought over into the grease part of the services. All right, Pops slid down because he had on his house slippers. And this young man got a crowbar. He was about to hit Daddy. And Cleedy, my sister Cleedy, she had made her way. And she beat him in the back. She beat him. Oh god yeah and he got away from cleedy and i knew he was going for his

gun going to his office i woke pervers if i said pervers they're fighting if i pervers came from under them coats man like superman coming out of that that that's your brother that's my brother and see the guy hadn't seen him. He laying down on the back seat with coats of him because he had to drive next. Purvis come out there. He went up in the air because this guy was taller than Purvis. He went up in the air and come down on him. And that's when that young man started running.

I'm driving a getaway car. I'm backing up. Getting out of there. I almost hit him. But then that was as far as I went. I stopped. And they got back in the car. Everybody was panting, panting. Pop said, okay, Mavis, drive.

I said, Daddy, I cannot drive no more. I can't drive. I said, I'm too nervous. And this tone of voice, he said, drive, Mavis. Yeah. So I started driving. And, man, I get on this bridge, the bridge from Memphis to West Memphis, Arkansas. You get across that bridge, you're in Arkansas.

I told Pop, I said, Daddy, Purvis, he the last one got in the car. He's going to talk about, I think we should go to the Lorraine Hotel. Daddy said, oh, no, we're going home. The Lorraine is where Dr. King was. Yeah, was shot, yeah. Yeah, that's where we all stayed. And Papa said, no, we're going home. He said, keep on driving.

So I said, Daddy, there's some lights behind me. I said, I see some white lights going. And he said, well, just drive on until you get across the bridge they got right up on us and they were shining them lights just the guy and his friends? no no just the police I got on across that bridge

and Mark these people jumped out of them cars with shotguns dogs was barking they even had German shepherd dogs and three cars and them cars with shotguns. Dogs was bogging. They even had German Shepherd dogs with them. Really? And three cars. dad

had us standing on the highway with our hands over our heads. Cars zooming past, zooming past. I ain't never been so scared in all my life. What year was this? This was 63. Yeah. And they started searching.

Oh, okay, we know what you did. That boy told them that we had robbed him. They told him we didn't pay for our gas, and they beat him up. And daddy said, no, officer, we paid for our gas. And he said, where you, he went in our trunk. The people in Jackson, Mississippi had paid us in cash money, and they had it in a cigar box, you know, just like somebody would rob somebody.

And he said, oh, this is what we're looking for. Pop said, that's our money, officer. He said, well, you get this kind of money, boy. He kept calling Pop, boy. And that was making me flinch. And Popsy said, we sing in Jackson, Mississippi. These are my children. We sing gospel music. I got to hear what kind of singing you do to get this kind of money.

Popsy said, you can call WTIA. We record right there in Memphis at Stax Records. You can call anybody in Memphis. They tell you who we are. They wouldn't hear it. They kept talking nasty. He put that shotgun on Cleedy because Cleedy, when she got out of the car, she undue her jeans. And she put her hands down to pull her jeans up.

And he told her, you want to get shot, don't you? I told you, keep your hands over your head. She put them back over her head. They finally, after they got through scaring us to death, they finally put these handcuffs on us, handcuffed all four of us behind our backs, put us in separate cars. And, Lord, I just started praying. I knew I wasn't going to see my mother again.

I wasn't going to get out of there. I thought they were taking us to lynch. They were going to lynch us. And we get to the jail. That's what made me feel so much better. I saw they was taking us to jail. Not the woods. Not the woods, man. We got in they was taking us to jail. Not the woods. Not the woods.

Man. We got in jail, got to the jail. Pop's walking in front of all of us. Here's a black man mopping the floor. Pop's staples. No, he said, Papa's staples. Papa's staples. What you doing here?

Pop just kept his head down, kept walking. And then here we come. He said, and you're cheering. Man, we walked on past. I was glad to see a black man too, but it wasn't going to do us no good. But they all let us sit down. The chief come out. The chief come out. He said, all right, who's going to tell me what happened here? And Papa said, I'll tell you. You take me And Papa said, I'll tell you. You take me to another room. I'll tell you what happened.

Papa still didn't want me to hear what all this boy said about me. He took Papa to another room. After a while, somebody come out, wanted Cleedy to go to the car and get that receipt. That receipt saved us. For the gas. It was all bloody, but it saved us. It was paid for. We paid for our gas.

Because he told them we didn't pay for the gas, and we robbed him and beat him up. And the chief come out of there after he saw that receipt. He said, get them handcuffs off them people. Get them off. Get these young bucks. We're trying to get it straight around here, and they're trying to keep this mess going say take them handcuffs and one of these policemen he wanted to joke then i don't bleed in my hand because i think them person man get these

handcuffs off my sister you know because they had me and perv's handcuff together they had run out and and uh they let us go man we we we got the first time we went back to Memphis you looked over to the right the chief had sent a note up to pops over to the right the chief and about 12 policemen and pops said chief it's mighty nice of y'all to come out here to see us, but who's minding the town over there? He said, somebody could rob the bank and all the auto. But, man, that was something. Everybody in Memphis knew about it. Everybody was telling us. It got big news.

It big news. Oh, man, when we got home the next day, the Pittsburgh Courier, the Sun Times, all of them. And my friend goes, Mavis, your family beat up a white man? I said, yes, we did. We beat up one. I got

really tough then, but more, I was a scared sister. I was scared. Oh, yes. And that probably just steeled Pops' resolve around being part of what Martin Luther King was doing and what was going on down there. That shift from gospel to socially activism music to fuel the civil rights struggle. That's right. That must have really sealed the deal. That rights struggle. That's right. That must have really sealed the deal. That did it.

That did it. He was ready. He probably started writing freedom songs. He wrote that one about them Little Rock Nine, Why Am I Treated So Bad? And that turned out to be Dr. King's favorite. Yeah. That was after this.

That was after this. So this event, you guys had not experienced that level. Not, no. We would see stuff. We'd be driving. Because, you know, of course, you're in a Cadillac. That's the best car to travel in. And these white young dudes would come over, try to run us off the road.

But Pops didn't take no mess. Pops would go right back into them. He'd take his car right back. He didn't care about getting some scratches on the car. You know, they tried to run us off the road, and then they left us alone. But you did have to deal with the separate hotels, all that stuff.

That was just a given. We couldn't stay in the hotel. We couldn't go in there. And me and Yvonne and Cleedy one day down in Jackson Mississippi we went and told pops we wanted to go shopping pop said all right y'all go shopping and uh then he tell us he said don't start nothing and then the next breath he would tell us don't take nothing either we said okay daddy we go downtown we let my oldest sister Cle Cleary, be our spokesperson. We saw these shoes that we wanted to sling in, three pair.

Cleary, we go in the store. Cleary said, yes, we would like to know if you have these silver shoes, silver pumps in these three sizes. The lady went and found it. She said, oh, yes, I'll see. She went and found all the shoes. She said, we have every size. And Cleary said, oh, yes, I'll see. She went and found all the shoes. She said, we have every size. And Cleary said, oh, all right, we better try these on. And that's when she said, oh, well, hon, if you want to try them on, you have to go behind that curtain over there. We couldn't sit down in the store. You had to go behind that curtain.

And Cleary, we looked at that curtain. This was an old raggedy, dirty, crocus-like curtain that they done put up there. And Cleary said, oh no, we can't take these. And she said, y'all don't live here, do you? Cleary said, oh yeah, we live here. We've been

living here all our life. We live on Church Street. And we did on Church Street, but it was the Edward Lee. This was a black woman and her husband would rent rooms to black artists who came through. And that was on Church Street. But people aren't going to tell us, oh, no, we're from Chicago. No, we live here.

All our lives we've been living here. So, man. Didn't get here sure man didn't get them shoes which song was it that Dr. King liked why am I treated so bad and you guys you made a lot of appearances with him oh yes we would sing before he would speak

and when we'd be going to the meetings everybody would be coming out Dr. King you'd hear him say and when we'd be going to the meetings, everybody would be coming out, they'd be on the parking lot. Dr. King, you'd hear him say, Stabe, you're going to sing my song tonight, right? Papa said, oh yeah, doctor. We're going to sing your song.

So he was a sweet man. Oh, Lord. He was the, man, listen. My father had to try to hold all three of us. When they shot Dr. King, we had just left Memphis, and we was in Nashville. And we were on our way, on our way, getting ready to go to work. All of us were about to get in the car. And this man, this was a black motel.

He had built this black motel. The owner, he come running around to where we were. He says, pop, pop. Somebody just shot Dr. King. We go back in our room. Pops turn on the television, and by this time, they announce Dr. Martin Luther King has died. And, Lord, man, my sisters, we went crazy.

We loved this man so much, And for somebody to just shoot him. And pops was trying to hold us all. And pops said, y'all, y'all calm down. We're going back home. We can't sing tonight. We're going home. Had you just seen King in Memphis? We just left him.

Just left him. He was there for this. Were you staying at the Lorraine? At the Lorraine. The Lorraine Hotel. Oh, boy. Just left him. He was there for this. Were you staying at the Lorraine? At the Lorraine. The Lorraine Hotel. Oh, boy. Yeah, man. And you know how that was terrible.

Dr. King, it took me a long time, long time to get over that. It was like family, you know. And Dr. Martin Luther King, the most humble person in the world. You know, just a beautiful beautiful spirit and and uh he came and stayed in chicago in the slums to see how it was so he would know what he was talking about you know and you did it didn't you do a piece where you you did one of his sermons as a song it's on that album it's on the one that you did with m ward right right yeah yeah yeah living on a high note on a high note right yeah that's nice that because just like you and a guitar almost yeah right and and man they had to stop that i had to stop it twice

because i was crying like a baby i had i said wait i got chokedoked up. You get choked up on some songs when you, they're so real. You know, and Dr. King, today I still see his baby daughter, Bernice. She's still in Atlanta. When we go to Atlanta, we see Bernice. She just like him. Yeah. Just like him. Yeah.

But. And how did you guys like you know what was the conversation around how you proceed you know after that i mean it was it was so leveling to to everybody that was part of the struggle i mean how did pops you know what was the pep talk after that well pops would just let us know you know and we were all grown yeah pops would justops would just let us know, you know, and we were all grown. Yeah. Pops would just, we would just sing our songs, and some of them we couldn't sing. So Freedom Highway, we would definitely sing. I still sing Freedom Highway.

I've been singing Freedom Highway on all these shows that I'm having. I don't leave it out of my lineup. Yeah. I sing Freedom Highway because I tell this little story. I let the people know that that this song that we're about to sing we would start singing it in the morning we sing it tonight as we marched down the highways the southern highways with dr martin luther king and the police would stop us they stop us i tell people when i them, they want to know if we had papers to march.

That's in the 60s. But we would probably need them today. We probably need some papers if we were walking out there because of this man that's in the White House. Tell them people to get papers. They can't march for Martin Luther King. I can just hear him. Yeah, it it's it's bad again yeah oh i guess it's always been kind of bad but like we seem to certainly have moved backwards it's terrible yeah when i saw them them young men walking marching with torches in charlottesville and then what was so spooky about it was their

faces these were young people they look like college students yeah you know they didn't look In Charlottesville. And then what was so spooky about it was their faces. These were young people. They looked like college students. You know, they didn't look like bigots, the average bigot. Old-timey bigots. Old-timey, yeah. I said, these people got a whole new thing. These are new people.

Yeah. And it was frightening. It was frightening. I saw the 60s on that news when they showed that news. Yeah. I was waiting to see, well, are they going to burn a cross next? Yeah. They're going to burn a cross in somebody's yard. You know, we had Mark. We had some terrible times. We had. And but but I was never frightened. I was never because I knew I was with my father.

The only time that I really got scared, super scared, was that time in Memphis. Third and Union. Yeah. I'll never forget that street. Yeah. Third and Union. That's where the station was? Yeah.

On Third and Union. So you guys, you just kept soldiering on for the cause? We had to. Yeah, of course. We had to. Yeah, of course. We had to keep going, you know, because it was instilled in us now. You know, we are black, you know, and somebody's got to stand up for our people. Right today, I wish there was someone who could be a leader. It's weird that there's a lack of leaders in general.

Right. Of people that have the fortitude or the courage to really move people in the right direction. Right. But nobody want to mess with it. It takes a certain amount of courage. It takes a certain type of person. A certain type of person. Yeah. Dr. Martin of person. Yeah.

Dr. Martin Luther King. Yeah. Because Rosa Parks' feet were hurting. Yeah. And she was not going to go to the back of the bus. Yeah. And then they had killed this young boy from Chicago, Emmett Till. Emmett Till, yeah.

And that did it. Dr. King knew he had to. And that did it. Dr. King knew he had to. And Dr. King, every time I looked at him, I would see either pain, either sorrow or hurt in his face. When I hear him laugh, that's what I remember of him most, his laughter. His laughter. Oh, man, he had a jovial laughter.

And, see, the men, they would all gather in the parking lot. And they'd be in a circle. And all of a sudden, they'd all break out laughing. And you'd hear Dr. King. And I'd say, oh, Dr. King is happy. That would make me feel so good. That's great. That would make me feel so good.

So as you guys kept going, I'm trying to remember the year I must have seen you. How long has Pops been gone? 2000. Because I told you, I saw you with John Hammond opening, and we realized it was probably the bottom line, or it was down in the village. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember John got up there, and he had a hard time because he popped two strings. Right after the first two songs, two strings went.

And then you guys came on. It was a nice little room, and it was great to see you. Yes, I remember. I remember the bitter end. Yeah, that was it, the bitter end. The bitter end. And John Hammond, I see him every now and then. Yeah, I talk to him.

Yeah. He's a very specific, unique guy, that guy. He really is. Oh, man, what a sound. He really is. He's good. Now, I noticed, too, that two years ago, maybe, you toured with Dylan. Yes, I did.

So you and Dylan go way back. Way back. I mean, there's this piece that I read that when he heard you sing Uncloudy... Uncloudy Day. Yeah, that he was struck. Yeah.

And you guys, he must have been a kid. I mean, I don't even know when that came out. When did that come out? Well, Uncloudy Day came out in I was 13 years old. So he must have been around When did that come out? Well, Unclouded Day came out in 50. I was 13 years old. So he must have been around that age too, right? Yeah, but I'm older than, yeah, he must have been two years younger than me.

But he told it. His manager, when we met Bobby, his manager told him, look, I want you to meet the Staple Singers. And he said, I know the Staple Singers. I've been listening to the Staple Singers since I was 12 years old. And Pop said, how you know us? He said, I listen to Randy. Randy was a station out of Nashville, 50,000-watt station,

and everybody could hear Randy. In Minnesota. In Minnesota. He could hear him. And he went on to quote a verse that I was singing in this song. He said, Mavis, Mavis told dad at first, he said, Pops, you have a velvety voice, real smooth and velvety. He said, but Mavis, she gets rough sometimes.

He said, Mavis says, youonder come little David with his rocking sling. I don't want to meet him. He's a dangerous man. I said, you remember that? He said, I know the whole song. Yeah, that was. When was that? How old was he then?

That was in the 60s. That was about 62. How did he strike you at that age? Oh, I just saw a little skinny, a white boy, you know. But I didn't know that he was such a genius then. Yeah, right. You know, curly hair, blue eyes. He was cute, you know.

But he was just a little, and he wasn't trying to be swag, you know. His little jacket, I think the sleeves were too short. Real folky. Real folky. Yeah. And that was the time. Just met him now today. And this day, we were on, this was a television show that we were doing for

General Electric. And everybody was on that show. We even had meal tickets to get our lunch. So everybody was in line. And Bobby, my family, we must have been up front. Bobby was in the back. All of a sudden you heard, Pops, I want to marry Mavis. And Pops said, Well, don't tell me, tell Mavis.

You know, people were laughing, and I was embarrassed. I was hung in my head. I said, that's that guy we just met. He's been thinking about you a long time. He's been thinking a long time on that one. But he would send me messages through my sister, Yvonne. After that. Yeah.

And then he wanted to take me out. But then we just started courting. Yeah. You know, we would write letters back and forth. And I tell you, when he called me to open his show on his tour. A couple years ago? Yeah. Uh-huh. I said, oh, my God. Bobby wants me to open his show on his tour. A couple years ago? Yeah. I said, oh, my God, Bobby wants me to open.

So I get there. I'm in the dressing room. And all of a sudden this guy came and said, someone wants to see you. I said, okay. And I opened my door. Here's Bobby. Hello. I said. Here's Bobby. Hello. I say, Bobby, Bobby.

I say, oh, Bobby, I've been wanting to see you so bad. I've been missing you. I want to see. You could have seen me every day if you had married me. That long? Yeah. I say, don't be so mean. Yeah. You could have seen me every day if you had married me.

I mean, he looked like he had that ready for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's funny. Oh, he's comical. Yeah. But we got along fine. He would come to the bus and get me. We would walk around holding hands.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. That's sweet. We know we were in love back then, but he wouldn't listen to me. I told him, Mavis wants to get married. I said, Bobby, I'm too young. I'm too young. We're too young.

Was this before you got married the first time? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We were young. We were teenagers when I met Bob. I must have got the year wrong, but we were teenagers. And I kept telling him, we were too young.

But he wasn't hearing it. Yeah. You know, he kept saying. How long did that go on for? Oh, we courted, what, about three, four years. Wow. He was serious.

Oh, serious. Yeah. Because we would see each other when we hook up. I couldn't leave town to go see him because I was still young. I couldn't tell my father I'm going somewhere by myself, see my boyfriend. And Chicago wasn't having folk festivals where Bobby would come to Chicago. We'd just have to see each other when we were on the same show or something.

Yeah. But we would hang. Yeah. I was in, Bobby was in Japan. This must have been about 15, maybe 10 years ago. Uh-huh. And I kept getting this message from some lady. See, when he check in the hotel, he used a different name.

Yeah. And he ain't thinking that I don't know this name. I didn't know who that was. Right. They kept giving me this message. I said, I'm sorry, but I don't know her. And come to find out it was Bobby. After the show, this is a club.

We do two shows a night. And after the second show, it's almost 2 o'clock in the morning. So I get to my hotel, and here's this message from Bob telling me. And you were in Japan, too? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. His real name.

Yeah. And it just happened. Bobby was right across the street. His hotel was right across the street. But I called him. I said, Bobby. He was sleeping. Yes, M called him. I said, Bobby. He was sleeping. Yes, Mavis.

I said, Bobby, well, how long have you been? He said, I've been sending you messages to that Blue Note Club all this time. I said, Bobby, I did not know that was you. That was a lady's name. That's the name I use. I said, well, you got to help me to it. And then he talked about, I want you to hear my new record I want your opinion on my new record and I said he said I said well how am I going to come over here I said I can't come over there I'm right across the street from, Bobby, I can't come. It's 2 or 3 o'clock

in the morning. I can't walk out here in Japan by myself right across the street. I said, even right across the street, I ain't coming out there. And I said, you come over here. He said, well, I have to catch the fast train in the morning. I can't come out. I said, well,

here's my number. When you get back to the States, we'll hook up. I would really want to hear her. I don't know which album. He never did. Oh, he didn't have it? No. What did you think when he went through that gospel period?

I mean, how did that strike you? It struck me that was him. That was him. He's that kind of person. When he was singing the gospel songs. Good songs. Good songs. But I don't know why he didn't call me.

All of those people that were singing gospel with him, they didn't even know nothing about Bobby. You've sang some of those songs with him, though, right? Yeah. You got to serve somebody. That's some song, huh? Oh. Yeah. You've sang some of those songs with him, though, right? Yeah. Yeah. You gotta serve somebody. That's some song, huh? Oh. Yeah.

Probably put that on his album. Yeah. Oh, he did, yeah. Serve somebody. Yeah. It's nice, though. So you guys hadn't seen each other in a while, and you go on tour, but you got a real friendship, you know?

Yeah, I felt really good. Because for a long time, I thought maybe he was angry with me. Yeah. You know? But I felt really good. Oh, it seems like he had a pretty big life. Yes. Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah. Somebody wrote that Mavis dodged a bullet. That's probably true. Nah. But back then, he was a sweet, sweet kid. So, you know, after all these years, when working with the, doing your solo stuff and then working with the singers,

is anybody still around? Is Purvis around? Yeah. Oh, he is. Purvis is just, in my family, Purvis and I are the only two left. I lost Yvonne last year. Cleedy in 2014. And Pops, it don't seem like, that's 19 years that Pops has been gone.

I started thinking, I said, it just don't seem like that. Don't seem like Yvonne. Now, this past April, Yvonne's been gone a year. Yeah. I couldn't believe that. Yeah. You know, so. It's crazy.

And Purvis. Yeah. Purvis is just, Purvis is the player. He still think he's a player. He's 84 years old. He didn't stay in the music game, though, huh? No. He quit the group in 1969.

Mm. But he wanted to manage the emotions. Yeah. And he did. He managed them he did yeah he got some hits on him with with uh with Isaac Hayes and and uh uh Porter and but the the emotions this was a family too three girls and their father But the difference in the emotions, they evidently didn't listen to their parents. Or their parents brought them up different from what our parents. See, because the girls weren't haywire. And Purvis couldn't keep them together. So that was it.

But now you've quit your family. And Yvonne is singing and Purvis is playing. Purvis wanted to come back because Pops told him. Pops said, Purvis, wouldn't you like to take a leave of absence instead of quitting? No, no, I want to quit. But you know how young boys get when they, no, I'm quitting. I'm gone. So Pops really ran it like a business, huh?

Oh, business. Oh, yes. Yeah. When Yvonne took that part, that's Yvonne's part now. Yvonne wasn't just- Because he wanted to come back after he met- Yeah, yeah, yeah. After the girls broke up.

Yeah, he wanted to come back. And you guys work with Curtis Mayfield? Oh, Lord, yes. Yeah. Curtis lived right around the corner from us. And we did Do Itfield? Oh, Lord, yes. Curtis lived right around the corner from us, and we did Do It Again and many songs with Curtis. He seems like he was a real genius. He was.

He was a true genius. Curtis, when he wanted us to sing Do It Again, this is the only secular song that the staple singers have sang. Ever? Ever. Ever. Because daddy told him, Curtis, now pop.

Curtis had given me my part. And he said, now pop, this is your part. And that was, I like your lady. So fine with your pretty hair. Pop said, Curtis, man, I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. I'm a church man. I ain't say.

And Curtis, oh, Pop, you can say it. The Lord won't mind. He said, I'll pray for you, Curtis. Curtis. And look, me and Cleary and Yvonne, we started that on Pops. We wanted to hear our, this was a movie, and we wanted to hear our voices on the big screen. You know, so we told Daddy, come on, Pops, it's just a movie score. Ain't nobody going to mess with us over that.

And sure enough, the church people did not mess with us over Do It Again. Now, you're talking about a circular song, secular. And Pops, he didn't want to do it. But every time he said it on stage, when he said, I like you, lady. The ladies, oh, Pops. They loved it. Oh, he loved it. He would just be grinning.

And he'd look right at me and grin with that twinkle in his eye. I said, uh-huh. Yeah. What happened to your mom? Mom was home. Yeah. Mom would laugh, too, when we told her about it. But, no, see, my mother, she didn't travel with us.

My mother was just a wheel in the middle of a wheel. She kept everybody straight. Yvonne and Cleedy, if anybody was going to argue, it would be Yvonne and Cleedy. So Mama would tell them, no, y'all don't do that. You know your sisters. You're not going to get anywhere talking to each other like that. She'd just calm them down. My mother was the best

cook in the world yeah everybody would come to town and she would listen to to my friends problems you know she'd help everybody and nancy wilson she would call mama before she'd get there mom i want some cream corn when i get ray charles he wanted greens and and and and we potato pie yeah he told mama sister we can start a franchise with this food potato pie you know we can start a franchise big ones little ones oh man everybody would come to mama's house and and and pops you know when they had to pay older yeah pasta taking sweet potato pies to the disc jockeys. Oh, yeah.

And one of the disc jockeys, he Rodney Jones in Chicago, he come on the radio. Them stable singers, I tell you, they don't eat no payola. They got payola. And for the people see that was he had just played Respect Yourself, Respect Yourself, a brand new

and he played it and then he started talking about Paola. Oh really? The pie got respect to yourself on the radio? Yes indeed. Wow. Daddy knew what he was doing. My father shrewd, shrewd. Yeah, yeah. So when you like the the shift from like you know from stacks and then you go down there and record with those guys at muscle

muscle shoals yeah that's it's like it just it's sort of stunning to me like you know you you did all the work with the family but the way these producers shape you know you know how they're going to support you like did you like the working at at Muscle Shoals? Who was that? Jerry Wexler, the original guys, right? Oh, no. He worked with Aretha, and he worked over at Fame. It was a company there, a record studio called Fame. Right, right. And the one we were at was Muscle Shoals.

This was Barry Beckett, Jimmy, little David, David Hood. Yeah. I know his son, Patter patterson yeah see that's all there was in muscle shows our recording studios and uh it wasn't like a family like stacks like stacks everybody hung out right i mean no but they would hang out at different studios okay at different ones because i never we never made it over to fame now I'll be going to muscle shows for a festival next month yeah yeah and um David Hood's still alive no oh yeah yeah David was playing and he was at the birthday party in in uh Nashville the other night oh yeah yeah your

birthday yeah yeah you had a big birthday I'm. You had a big birthday, huh? I'm having, I had a big one in Apollo. Yeah. The Apollo, the Apollo was sold out. Yeah. And this one was at the Ryman in Nashville. Oh, yeah. And this Wednesday night is going to be here in Los Angeles. I know, I wish I could come.

At the Ace. Yeah. You can't come. I think I might have to. I got to go on the road on Thursday, but maybe I'll make sure I go. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. That'd be good.

So, like, down in Nashville, Jason Isbell came by? Did Jason come by? Oh, yeah, Jason Isbell. Yeah. He's playing on all three. Oh, yeah. That dude is bad. He is, man.

Right? He's really, really good. Can really write a song. He can deliver it. Yeah. Yeah. And he's got this festival in Muscle Show. So I hadn't met him.

I hadn't ever known. Oh, but I love the way he sing and he play his guitar. Yeah. So I'll see him again Wednesday night. Who else is coming on Wednesday? Grace Potter. Mm-hmm. Guess who wanted to come?

Who? Tom Waits. to come Tom Waits Tom Waits and John Mayer was coming but he had to pull out is Tom coming he was coming he sent a message

he has to go out east to a memorial he sang with me before he came to my show and I told him I wanted him to sing again Old Mavis I'll be there Old Mavis

put my arms up but he can't make it you got a lot of great fans I do it's crazy right yeah man it's amazing. And I like the way that, you know, you kind of landed back into this sound, you know, with Ben.

Because, you know, you listen to the records. You know, the Prince records are great, you know. And then, you know, there's some other records. There was one record there that was a little disco-y back in the day, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now, you know, you come back around through, you know. Full circle. Yeah, through Rye and through, you know, Tweety.

Right. And then Ward record. And then you sort of land at this nice sound, a lot like the sound that you did with the staple singers, but also like the one you did at Alligator, you know, where it's just like, it's all straight ahead. That's right. Yeah. You're exactly right, Mark.

Yeah. I tell you, I'm so grateful, too. Yeah. I am so grateful. So, Ben, is he going to be there on Wednesday? Oh, Ben will be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I tell you, I'm so grateful, too. Yeah. I am so grateful. So, Ben, is he going to be there on Wednesday? Oh, Ben will be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Ben will be there.

Ben and I are going to do, tomorrow night, we're going to do Kimmel. Kimmel, yeah. Yeah. He's a nice guy. Oh, he's nice. Yeah. He's nice. But, yes, oh, I am having the time of my life right now.

It's great. You deserve it, and, you know, it sounds like you're having a great time and the record's great. Yeah. It's so much fun, huh? It's so much fun. Yeah. It's so much fun. But I'm kind of wondering, you know, this might be my last record.

I don't know. Yeah. It might be the last one. I don't know if I can top this record. You don't have to decide now. You don't think so? No. Okay, Mark. Okay, well, okay mark okay well i'll stop i'll stop thanks for talking to me oh i had a wonderful

time talking to you and i'm hoping i'll get out i'm so glad you invited me i hope you get out there yeah it's gonna be fun i love it i love you it's a it was a great honor to talk to you yeah when when when uh when i saw you in l you in London, I knew it was something about you. It was something about you. I was just so excited to see you. I didn't even know what that show was. I'm like, Mavis is going to be there. I wasn't either.

But y'all laughed at me when I had my egg white omelet. Yeah. Y'all cracked up. We did. I tell you. But I sure thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me yeah and i i i i ask

people if they know you everybody knows you oh good everybody knows oh good yeah i've talked to a lot of people yeah yeah i heard you talking to melissa oh yeah melissa mccarthy yeah she's great she's one of my favorites she's so so funny. Is she coming on Wednesday? I wish. Oh, don't do that to me. I wish I knew her well enough to tell her to come. To tell her to come. All right, well, have a good show.

I'll talk to you soon. Okay, thanks, Mark. Amazing, right? Was that an amazing conversation? Huh? How about that Japanese folk song? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me?

She just pulled that out. I swear to God. Like, I don't think she knew that she remembered that whole thing. Amazing. That was a real treat for me. I hope you enjoyed it. Her new album, Mavis' new album We Get By is available now wherever you get music I don't have a guitar with me

Boomer lives Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

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