WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1027 - Jamie Denbo

Episode Date: June 13, 2019

Jamie Denbo’s life and career would not be the same were it not for her job at a Renaissance fair. Her future in comedy, improv, acting, and now writing and producing might not have taken shape if she didn’t mistakenly audition for a gig she didn’t understand. Jamie tells Marc how early life misdirection and heavy duty self-criticism changed course thanks to the honing of her improv skills at the Ren-Fair and her coming-of-age at the original UCB Theater. They also talk about Ronna and Beverly, why she doesn’t want to do on-camera work anymore, and how she turned the Renaissance fair experience into a comedy series, American Princess. This episode is sponsored by the Netflix podcast I Hate Talking About Myself, Turo, SiriusXM, and Allbirds. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

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what the fuckaholics what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast, WTF. I have to declare this. Like, I am Mark Maron. I am Mark. I'm an alcoholic. I am Mark. This is my podcast. Podcaster. Almost as bad as alcoholism.

The compulsive drive and need to podcast. Seems like everyone's doing it. It hasn't manifested as a problem. It's not really a, maybe your life's unmanageable because of your podcast. I don't know. Maybe it's not working out the way you want to, but, but you know, if it makes you feel better to talk into a mic and put it out into the world, then that seems fine to me. I'll, I'll sign off on that. Like it fucking matters.

First off, uh, St. Louis, maybe there's a few more tickets left for tonight. I believe first show Friday is sold out and two shows Saturday are sold out. Late show Friday could use a little help, as they say in the game, in the racket, could use a little help. Late show Friday. Come on, man.

Come on. But all the other ones are looking good. It's fine. I didn't have huge expectations for St. Louis. I know you people out expectations for St. Louis. I know you people out there in St. Louis who enjoy me. But we're good. Everything's good.

I'm just telling you, I'll be at Helium. So do whatever you need to do. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour and you can get a link to tickets for Helium. Those couple of shows. Maybe tonight. Definitely second show Friday. Other things., those couple of shows. Maybe tonight, definitely second show Friday. Other things. First, Sword of Trust. Now, that movie is going to open in July, and if you want to find out,

that's the movie I did with Lynn Shelton, Toby Huss, John Bass, Michaela Watkins, and Jillian Bell. If you want information about that movie, which opens in July, you can go to swordoftrust.com slash tickets and do a little search if it's going to be near you and get your tickets in advance. The other thing I wanted to tell you about is that Sword of Trust will be screening at sort of a special event here in Los Angeles. It's like a retrospective of Lynn Shelton's work. It's called Going Way Back with Lynn Shelton. It's Saturday, June 29th, Sunday, June 30th at the American Cinematheque here in Los Angeles. I'll try to make those shows.

I do get back on the 29th from my journeys, but that's going to be happening. So you can see any number of her movies and Sort of Trust and her and maybe me. Okay? So that, I think, is the housekeeping I needed to do. Jamie Denbo is on the show today. Jamie Denbo, very funny. And Jamie has got a new series on that she created, American Princess. It's airing on Lifetime.

And new episodes are at Sunday nights at 10, 9 Central. She's the producer and creator, and it's a new role for her, and we're going to talk about that stuff and comedy and life and Jewish things a little bit. Got an email from a guy who just gets annoyed, annoyed as fuck when I talk about Jew stuff and then uh you know when i engaged and uh and and suggested he might be anti-semitic he uh he called me a fucking pretentious asshole i guess he didn't call me a fucking jew right people you know what are they all mad about i know i am mad like the last time i talked to you uh there was some stuff going on with the refrigerator. So I dealt with that, man. So that was good resolution because now I can lose the resentment I have against the two Ukrainian guys who fixed the thing and the company that sent them after they replaced everything.

They replaced a valve and an ice machine and said it's the plumbing. And, of course, my first thought was, you guys are fucking me. Come on, man. How long is this going to go on for? And they were good. They were decent. They were honest. And it was the plumbing. I'll let you know if I get ice, but scratch that resentment off the list of things in my heart to do. But I still woke up with this pressing anxiety,

man. And I don't know. I get it when I travel. I worry, man. Are things going to be okay? Is Frank going to take care of everything? Of course he is. Frank's my dude. He works for me sometimes and he takes care of the house, takes care of the cats. And I worry about the cats. I worry about the house. I worry about the things that don't exist. See, that's the projecting thing. But then it got deeper than like, you know,

I'm like, I worried about like, you know, am I ever going to be capable of intimacy? Am I always going to be emotionally hobbled? And then, you And then because of all that stress, I don't know where it manifests in you, but to me, it literally squeezes my lungs. And this has always been the case. So now I can't breathe. I'm getting weird pains and I'm like, all right, so that's it. I'm sick. I got cancer and I'm going down. So all the reasonable anxieties I have, and I could just talk about them instead of doing

that. Why not just focus on my impending death? And then why not just think like, well, that would be relaxing. That's a Buddhist trip, man. You know what I mean? It really is. But I got to be accepting of it, but I just can't compartmentalize. So I was a fucking mess this morning.

It took me three hours to breathe properly. I'm okay now. I'm out of the woods. I got to get compartmentalize. So I was a fucking mess this morning. It took me three hours to breathe properly. I'm okay now. I'm out of the woods. I got to get my shit together because I'm traveling. And that's my life. But then I think like, does it need to be my life? Can I just pull out? Isn't it time to eject?

Not out of life, but maybe just parachute into a small house somewhere in the woods. Yeah, but we know how that goes. I've talked about that. Tell me about day three, Mark. Tell me about day somewhere in the woods. Yeah, but we know how that goes. I've talked about that. Tell me about day three, Mark. Tell me about day three in the woods. A loom of panic. I have a machine in my brain just weaving beautiful tapestries of fear and dread. The loom of panic. Is that a poem? Is it a movie? Is it a band? I don't fucking know. Loom of panic. Man, my brain has just been on fire.

This EMDR stuff is really kind of, I think it's working. This therapy, I told you guys I'm doing it. And even the hokey part of it where you hold these sensors and they alternate but you start at this place where you you find a sort of core center of the emotional disturbance and you you you build you you find an event and then you you talk about that and then you hold that in your mind the feelings and you do the buzzers and then you and then it's like where do you what do you? Where are you now? And you say where you are now and where that took you. And through five or six of these, it's kind of this stream of consciousness trip, all attached

to the original sort of feeling of emotional disturbance or trauma. And I don't know what it's doing, but it's, it's, it's shaking something loose somehow or another. It's like, you know, when like a monster comes out of the swamp, like alien, the monster coming out of that guy's stomach. That's sort of what's happening with my emotions. But they're nicer. It's a nicer experience. to break through this weird cynical uh kind of elaborate uh defense structure that i've you know created in order to exist and do comedy and it's but it's now it's like a pretty decent shield to manage and repress emotions but now this younger heart this younger self is just like because of the emdr it's just like pounding through and now all of a sudden there's crying happening occasionally and and uh a little bit of sadness uh trying to communicate the thing

that it's trying to talk it's trying to talk through the grown-up face anyway does that explain it does it is that is that of any help does that make any sense? I don't know. So, look, a few emails that I wanted to just blast through if I could. A few, maybe, I don't know if I get to all of these. Okay, one. Subject line, sort of been missed hearing your new movie title. Mark, hi Mark. I just realized the other day that your new film is called Sword of Trust, not Sort of Trust. If I've been misunderstanding,

I think others have been too. Keep on keeping on, Will. Well, I don't know. Maybe not, but okay. Yeah, it's Sword of Trust, not Sort of Trust. Good. Here we go.

Question, subject line. Hi, Mark. I love that you assume that actors hang out with their castmates off set. It's adorable. But what I would like to know is do you spend time with the ladies of GLOW, Jen in Montclair, New Jersey? Not too much.

Not too much when we do things, do events and stuff. But no, I don't call them. Occasionally I'll text with Betty or Allison. But no, not often. Does that make me a bad person? Subject line. Thanks for being that guy hey mark i just wanted to say thank you for being one of those guys you always go on about those important guys you cross paths with in your life that blow your mind and point you in another direction or invite your brain to wander to places you hadn't considered i came for the comedy but

thanks for terry reed annie baker isbel brag, and, and, and, dot, dot, dot. I've been listening since the New York Times article and got attempting normal, but I'm still waiting for Marin to show up on German TV. Might just have to give up and sign up to Netflix, though. Many thanks. Yasser, you got it, pal. You know, there's been a lot of emails about the Perry Farrell interview. A lot of like really positive ones. A lot of people that just enjoyed the ride. And then some people that just couldn't take it, that couldn't stand it. They were angry about it. But it's just interesting what people get out of emails like in this one. It just is subject line Perry Farrell interview. I'm going to just jump to the meat here. It's just a subject line Perry Farrell interview. I'm going to just jump to the meat here.

I just wanted to say how much I loved your interview with Perry Farrell. I discovered Jane's addiction when I was 15 and in the middle of about a decade of pretty horrible trauma. It was a chaotic and violent time in my life. The most difficult thing to understand then and now is how many adults around me refused to get involved despite me actually working up the courage once or twice to ask for help. Music was one of my escapes. And when I discovered Jane's Addiction something inside me clicked. I didn't understand a lot of the lyrics specifically and still don't actually but I knew rage when I heard it and at the time it felt like that music was made just for me and maybe it was. A suburban teenage girl who was suffering in plain sight and raging at the world. It really got me through some shitty times and made me feel less alone.

These days, I've grown up and live a stable, happy life with my kids and wife in the Bay Area. People are always surprised to hear my story because I seem pretty normal and I don't tell many people. It took a lot of work to reframe my views of the world, and now I'm living a life, frankly, I did not think was possible for a long time. So I took some pleasure hearing Perry Farrell talk about his struggles with his teenage son who just wants to study and skip the

vacations. It's funny to hear a rock star struggle with the same day-to-day challenges so many of us face. And getting to hear you and Farrell sing together was a special treat. That interview really brought a lot of parts of my life together that don't often get to meet. So thanks and thanks for all you do, Julie. See, you don't know how it's going to affect people. That's lovely. It's lovely. Thank you for all those emails always. All right. So Jamie Denbo, who I like, and I was happy to talk to, she's on top of it. She's lit up. She's got a new comedy series. She created American princesses airing on lifetime new New episode Sunday nights at 10, 9 central. So this is me talking to Jamie Denning.

It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance?

Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Here's what I remember about you. Like, I remember, I can't remember if it's all the way back to New York, but I remember you were, like, kind of, like, manic and a little nutty.

Well, the character. No. Oh, as a person. As a person. Oh, yeah. Like, when I first met you when you were younger, I was like, that's, like, that's pretty wild in there. Oh, sure.

Yeah, no, no, no. It was like, I remember literally thinking like, is she manic? What's happening? Yeah, probably. Really? Does that add up or am I making it? Oh, no, it completely adds up. Like you were just like bouncing off the walls kind of person. Oh, I was.

Yeah, of course, because it was a resistance to like, you're not going to like me? Fine, I will do everything to make you not like me. Yeah, it was annoying i mean i it was and it was also i think it goes back to being kind of an unapologetic yeah uh musical theater nerd renaissance festival nerdish kind of thing but caught in the world of alternative comedy where i could do it very well on stage but backstage people you know does any of that make sense that's a lot yeah no I think no you're talking about you know you go from these secure defined creative worlds right which are earnest and have an earnestness and and and

improv comedy is just a competitive clusterfuck of people trying to get the last laugh and out cool each other and when I was doing it it was all it was it was dudes in indie rock and that's what they were about in fact you know what julie klausner her analogy about being a woman in improv back sort of in the 90s and the aughts was miss piggy right you're miss piggy it's so brilliant it's like you are an unapologetically like i'm just crazy and emotional and crying. And Kermit, who you're dying to pay attention to you, is embarrassed of you. And all of his friends are like,

you fucking control your pig, dude. Please, she's a lot. She's a lot. And she's always so feminine and screaming. It's so funny, just a bunch of Kermits. I'm telling you, that's what it was like. That's sort of the difference, too, between improv dudes and comedy dudes is a bunch of Kermits and a bunch of Oscars.

A hundred percent. And, and we, and, and by the way, inside, I felt like I could relate so easily, but then I would open my mouth and be that manic pig.

Yeah. And that's what you fucking encountered. I don't know. I just felt like, you know, I, I felt like, uh,

I, I can't put a timeframe on it. When do you remember first meeting me? Well, I, I knew you in New York, um, but you didn't know. I just felt like, you know, I felt like I can't put a time frame on it. When do you remember first meeting me? Well, I knew you in New York, but you didn't know me. I was hanging around the Luna, the eating at sea. Oh, you were. Okay. Right.

And I did it a couple of times. But even my approach to that was characters. What were you, like 12? Yeah. That's so, yeah, I was 12. No, I was in my mid-20s. Really? Mm-hmm.

And I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was caught between improv and stand-up. I had a very short-lived stand-up. Horrible. Maybe that's sort of what I remember. For me, because I was still at Luna, I was still kind of drunky and druggie. Oh, yeah, you were terrifying.

I mean, your energy was, but that's what i love about your evolution but it was always sweaty in there and there's always a lot of people i was always angry about something you were like i picture you at the bar yeah furious furious yeah yeah but i mean and then oh yeah and i and i, you know, I remember going there on September 12th, 2001 or September 13th and seeing like all of those, like seeing David Cross and Patrice O'Neill talking about the 11th. Really?

It was that soon? It was within a week. I want to say it was within a week. And I remember Patrice O'Neill doing his bit about like, yeah, you like my jacket? Got down to one of the I Didn't Do It sales downtown. And I remember David Cross, I'll never forget it. He got up and he was like, whale, we have 2,000 new angels up in Manhattan.

It was unbelievable. Yeah. That was like, and everybody was so, it was such a tweaky time. Everyone was so PTSD and fucked up. And then I moved to LA less than a year later. So, I mean, I think we did too because Mishnah was done.

Yeah, and I knew Mishnah. And I remember just sort of crossing paths with her and thinking she was beautiful. She was beautiful. What, in New York? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But like, I don't like,

so I know a little bit about, and I've always thought you were funny and every time I see you, I think you're funny. Huh? Miss Piggy, continue? Miss Piggy. Continue. No, no, no. You're one of those people that shows up in everything.

I've done one episode of everything good and bad. But the last time I saw you was in Andrea's show, and it was hilarious. Oh, my God. That was so good. Savage, thank you. Yeah. One episode of everything good. I can tell a lot about people's viewing habits.

I saw you in blank, blank. Oh, you're terrible. You have terrible taste. But you keep you keep fighting it out you know that's me and my husband we're hollywood's middle class that guy ross bowie is he john ross bowie yeah yep i know that guy too i remember him and i seem to scare him oh yeah you know you first of all john we're scared people you. I don't think you really are. He's more scared than me. I would say so.

He's scared of me. You're not going to be diplomatic and pretend that you're just not a... A ball buster? A ball busting Jewish lady. Well, that was interesting because when we came here before, years ago, and Jessica, and you very graciously did the rana and beverly podcast

i mean all i walked away thinking you hate your mother was what i thought no i don't hate her she's just a little selfish fair enough exactly i mean i really felt like our whole act there was a period of time and this was also it's so love hate though of course it is i mean i don't oh no no no no it all in great comedy my first wife was jewish i know i know how all of this look i don't want to i'm a jewish woman i don't want to be with you either okay and why is it is your husband jewish no he's not yeah what is that about it's the same bullshit you have really you don't like jews i don't like jewish men really yeah how many because you're just as fucked up as I am. Oh, yeah? So stable's good for you?

You like that? A little bit better. Is it? Yeah, it's actually a little bit nicer. Does he get older? He's waspy, which is a whole other set of- But like how- He thinks I'm yelling all the time. You are yelling all the time.

I'm just talking. No, I don't know if you are. Oh, boy, I am. See, but that's the thing about Rana and Beverly, is I knew how much it both repelled you and delighted you. Yeah, I know. I mean, because we had you back in like 2005 when the theater and UCB just opened and we were trying to curate like Jewish comedy, whatever. Yeah.

It was our hook at the time. Yeah. And so you did our show a few times. Right. And we would just argue with you on stage and it was so delightful. And you could feel the contempt. Oh, yeah. I could feel you just going like, why did I come here? I did a horrible joke about it. And it's still one of my favorite jokes. But I love it. I made a mistake. Well, I married a Jewish woman. And

that's a mistake as a Jew, because that means everything. Tay-Sachs. No, no. No, it means the joke was everything you hated about going home is now in your house. I remember that joke. Terrible. Yeah, it's amazing. It's so harsh. Well, but it's so true. Yeah.

I just, I, listen, I identify with the psychological warfare. I know, but like, right. But like, you know, we, like we hang a lot on that Jewish thing. Like, you know, like even just beginning with the guilt or the sadness that it's fundamentally Jewish. And I try to argue out of that. I understand. I try to think of it as like maybe we have a legacy to that because of what Jews had to go through. But I think plenty of non-Jews have it.

How old were you when you saw Shoah for the first time? Oh, God, I don't even know if I saw the whole thing. Okay, well, how old? When did I see the films we saw at the synagogue? Correct. When they're plowing bodies in the see the films we saw at the synagogue? Correct. When they're plowing bodies into pits? The barracks, the pits. Sure.

Do you remember not knowing about that? Third grade, probably. Okay, that's too fucking young. And that's very Jewish. Okay? That's where a lot of it comes from. Wait, we're too young to see the pile of hair? Yeah.

Too young to see the pile of hair. Yeah. I don't want to show my kids a pile of hair. They're 9 and 11. Still too young for the hair pile. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm saying. The suitcases.

The suitcase. The shoes. The stripes. All bad. Yeah. Bad. And I don't remember not seeing those very clearly in my head. And that's Jewish and a problem.

Well, I mean, but that was an indoctrination for a reason. I mean, the tagline is never forget. Correct. So you got to start the remember. But you forget the after the never forget part. It's not just never forget. It's never forget or it will happen again. And it will be because you forgot.

Right. That's the whole thing. No, that's what I'm saying. That's the burden that I feel that i've been brought up with right it's it's turning out turning out to be pretty reasonable fair enough fair enough yeah you're right you're not wrong yeah it's my fault well no well i wouldn't go immediately there with it but but there is the sort of realization there was a time you as you get older right as you get older where you're like, there aren't that many of us. No.

We're just a very loud vocal minority. Yeah. And, you know, we've done all right for ourselves because no one would let us do anything. I agree. We had to figure out how to work the angles. Yeah. Listen, I think it's all completely interconnected. But I can't ignore it.

You know, it's definitely. What are you touching? Nothing. Nothing. I just threw a little. I tuck a lozenge in my mouth. Oh, lozenge. Don't you do gum or nothing? No.

Oh. So, but you're pretty Jewish. I think people think that because my comedy has been very, there's culture, a lot of Jewish. But how'd you grow up? That's what we need to do because I know that you're, I think you're a Boston Jew, right? I am a Boston Jew. Well, you know, That's what we need to do. Because I know that you're, I think you're a Boston Jew, right? I am a Boston Jew.

Well, you know, that's sort of fascinating to me. Well, yeah. It's a tight-knit community. And New England plus Jew is a very strange combination. It is. Because it was one of those educational things for me. Because I was always encultured with the New York Jews, the New Jersey Jews. And we thought we were, but we're really not.

Yeah, it's an odder bunch because I worked at a fucking serious Jewish deli when I was in college in West Roskbury. Oh, did you? Yeah. Gordon's Deli. And I'm sure they were all like Jessica's character, Rana, who would come in and be like, okay. There was a lot of them. Yeah, yeah. But there was also like, it was the first time that I really put together that there was a, and I don't know why I hadn't before. There's working class Jews, old working class Jews.

And in Boston, there were several, like the number of rye breads available. It wasn't just light or dark. You had Sissel, you had Pumpernickel, you had dark and light. Yeah. Well, they were seedless, not seedless, bulky roll. You get a bulky roll. The seeds with Sissel bread. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. I didn't know any of that But I loved it Yeah The heel It's where I learned About the heel Of the bread Well what's interesting

Is my parents Oh yeah the heel Oh that's delicious With a big slab of butter Yeah right The heel You gotta cut the end off And chop it into

Delicious Uh huh Yeah I didn't have that They And I worked in a bakery too Actually Where Newman's Bakery

In Swampscott, Massachusetts See Swamp? Newman's Bakery in Swampscott, Massachusetts. See Swampscott, Swampscott. Swampscott. Yeah, I mean you don't have the thing. Because my mom was from Montreal and my dad was from South Jersey. And so. Another weird Jew.

Oh weird. Montreal Jews. Completely bizarre. There's a lot of them. There's a lot of them and again, very tight-knit with the community. Howie Mandel, Michael Rotenberg, Montreal Jews. Great.

But yeah, my mom sounded completely bizarre. My mom used to close the lights and I'm sorry. And then my dad, we're going down the shore. And then everyone around me would say, well, it's hot out. Well, we're in shucks. Hot out. And I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I would listen to the news or I'd watch Good Morning America.

And I was like, Joan Lunden sounds like, I can understand her. Right. or I'd watch Good Morning America. And I was like, Joan Lunden sounds like, I can understand her. Right. You know, and I remember my, we used to do a party for my high school.

We used to do it for the, well, it's Boston. Can I say a bad word? Yeah, of course. Okay, for the retarded kids. Sorry, I know. But it was Boston. It was a certain time. And that was at the time. And they would say, you know, it was the Hogan School.

And I remember our teacher would just be like, the Hogan School should be having a party for you. And that was his big thing. But I just remember thinking, these people sound crazy. I just interviewed Steve Sweeney a couple weeks ago. Oh, fabulous. Oh, my God. Boston Fried.

Yeah. And so I grew up thinking, just hearing a lot of different things. But they were religious? My parents were fairly religious. They had grown up, each of them, fairly Orthodox. And by the time i was around they were more conservative where swamps got exactly north shore next to salem which is okay yeah yeah because i mean i did a lot of comedy around that area of course you did where nick's comedy stop and over at the saga but i did one on i did that yeah but i mean i did a lot of the one-nighters in the little towns oh sure you know and uh yeah

sure all the nicks yeah but there were all these one-nighters in the little towns. Oh, sure. You know, and yeah, sure, all the Knicks. Yeah. But there were all these one-nighters. And I'm sure I was at some bar in Swampscott. I don't know. It's pretty sleepy. And I don't think we had it. I know, but I went to like Amesbury.

I mean, all it took was one bar to call up the contractor and say, we want to do a comedy night and you'd be going. I just wanted to leave. But okay, so you got siblings? None. Your only got siblings? None. Your only Jew child? Correct. And they were Orthodox?

They didn't do their bit? They were conservative. By the time you were awake? Yeah, they were conservative. Seeing the movies at synagogue? Yeah, watching barracks. Yeah, but you did the bat mitzvah and everything, right? I did the bat mitzvah.

But conservative, yeah, I was conservative. But I just didn't, I didn't feel that I was, I mean, it's funny because you talk about the tight knit Boston Jews and they were. I wasn't one of them. I didn't feel like it was tight knit. I just thought it was different. Well, yeah. Because you really get the idea that for most of us, like American Jewery.

Lawyer doctor. Well, it was just New York or New Jersey and then it went out from there. Right. You can track it back to Eastern or New Jersey, and then it went out from there. Right. You can track it back to Eastern Europe, and yours, obviously, Eastern Europe. Oh, yeah. No Sephardic. I did my DNA. It's like there's a fiddler in the middle, and I looked at the thing, and it was like,

you're from Manitowka. Great. I just was on Finding Your Roots. And? They went way back, man. How far? He was surprised. He was very excited, because they were able to go back, like, five generations. Okay. So, like, man. How far? He was surprised. He was very excited because they were able to go back like five generations.

Okay. So what would that be? Like early 1800s? Yeah. They do that thing on that show where if they have another guest that you have similar DNA to that you're probably related to. Who was it? Barbara Walters.

Isn't that so? Is that why? See, Beverly would tell you Is that wonderful? It is Oh my god Two interviewers Mark Two interviewers

That makes perfect sense I would have guessed Barbara Walters Good for you Oh my god So you're her son? And then that would be the story Was that your mother's friend

That you're doing? All of her friends Her friends Her and my grandmother But like Is Swampscott close enough To what? Where'd they go shopping?

Oh the Either the Burlington Mall Or they went to the Liberty Tree in Danvers. Oh, Danvers. Or the North Shore Shopping Center. North Shore. Or there's a really great Marshall's right in the middle of Swampscott. But not Route 9, not Newton. No, that's Fancy Joe's up there. We were more of a working class, like what you're saying.

What'd your dad do? My dad was an accountant, and still is. Yeah? He still works, yeah. And your mom? My mom is retired from multiple ideas. Real estate agent? No, sales.

She did like corporate sales for a while. She didn't know and she never did travel agent. I heard your Kudrow interview. She didn't do travel agent. Although she did taught ESL for a while and now she, you know, she is an activist. No, let me ask you this about that because I didn't really talk about it with Kudrow. Like some of my oldest friends are the Jews. Like the guys, like there's a couple of guys I knew in Hebrew school that I'm still in touch with.

My best girlfriends are coming to the screening for my show next week. My five best girlfriends. From like second grade? Liza Eshelbacher, Isla Sidman, Julie Friedson, Ann Vinnick, and Jessica Levin. Wow, that is some Jewish names, man. And we're still tight. I mean, look, technology might have something to do with that. But I also feel

like they were my family because I didn't have siblings right so I was very attached to them I don't know if they was attached to me that's the thing about being an only child because they all had big families right I was very maybe you should ask them when they all get here when you're all out well I definitely have I been living a lie well I've definitely been no is this for real are you just here because you want to go to LA? Like, why are you? But no, I definitely was attached to their families in ways that was, it was unhealthy. I just found that the kids that I knew, like, because you change schools, but you don't change religion. No, you don't.

So you wind up coming back. They're always sort of around. That's right. You know, and I didn't get confirmed, but there's one guy that I still am in touch with from Hebrew school, from second grade. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I went to Jew camp with all of them and some of them at kindergarten.

Jew camp. Yeah, I went to Jew camp a couple years. For me, that was a safe haven. I love that. Okay, well, then where does it start? So you're stuck up there, but you have friends and there's other Jews. And when do you start becoming geared towards performing? Loneliness throughout a confusing. I was, I was very lonely.

Because you're only child. I think cause I was an only child, but also not just because I was an only child. I was an only child in a place where nobody was only child. There was like one kid who was an only child. So you were a weirdo? A little bit. Kind of like, but not, but not weirdo physically, but just sort of like, you don't have any Well, I might've been the only person taking the Godspell vinyl out of the swamscott public library where like you know most kids were like

what about the socks game but that's not only child stuff that's no that's but it's it's combination of the two i mean i think you know i read the i loved that robin williams biography that came out a couple years ago yeah yeah but it's coughs book. Robin? Yes. And it broke my heart just because I could relate to that big house, only child thing. He had like army man figures until he died. Yes. I saw the collection in his house. Oh my God. Like he had a room for them, man.

Yeah. I don't know that I took it as far as that kind of level of brilliance or mental illness but uh I definitely spoke for a lot of the things inanimate objects in my house um and it was uh it it led me here I mean you know it's there's something to be said for the fact that all the women I just mentioned my yenta pack you know all are very close to their parents both geographically and and sentimentally. They got kids and their grandma's down the street.

A lot of them, yeah. They're continuing the tradition. Sunday you get lox. Do they get lox? A lot. They love lox. In fact,

we're planning on going to Friedman's when they get here so they can have West Coast lox. Friedman's, what's that? Oh, it's that great Jewish,

reinvented Jewish deli place over in Silver Lake or Echo Park. Yeah, it's called Friedman's. It's delicious. I've never been there. Oh, they have a deconstructed past deli place over in Silver Lake. Really? Echo Park, yeah. It's called Friedman's. It's delicious. I've never been there.

Oh, they have a deconstructed pastrami. Oh, deconstructed pastrami. It just means that it's in separate places on the plate, but oh, is it good. Really? Yeah, it's delicious. You don't go old school? I can go old school,

but I'm going to take them and do something up a notch. Yeah, they can do old school at home. But I definitely, I was a theater kid. I was definitely a theater kid. I was, I wanted to, I knew sports bored me immediately. Right. And that's tough in a town, like, again, it's a lighthouse town. It's like one of those little seaside, sleepy places next to the Salem, which is like your red socks or your dead. Socks.

So you went like mostly Irish? Irish, Italian, Greek. Greeks? Yep, lots of Greeks. Good diners. Great diners. Great pizza. Yeah.

And great kebabs. You get yourself a chicken kebab. You get a chicken kebab. I don't think they're great at pizza. It's a different style of pizza. Is it? I love it. Bad?

No. How dare you? What are you talking about? It's got a crispiness from the edge of the crust that goes all the way over the pizza. I can't explain it. Go to Marblehead House of Pizza. Go to Salem House of Pizza.

All right? Well, that sounds like a good thing. And you can't get a slice. No, it's not thin, but it's not thick. It's not like a Chicago bullshit. Right. It's not super skinny. That's Italian pizza.

But I always found the Greek pizza a little heavy, like a little floury. Well, that doesn't mean it's not delicious to some of us. No, I know that. Pizza is a very subjective thing. I couldn't agree more. But I like a good Greek pizza because you really can't get it anywhere else but the Boston area. Yeah, I know. But usually you get it because you can't get Italian.

Okay. For you, that's the case. That is the case for you. You tell me that you had good Italian pizza around and you went for the Greek? Okay, again. Seriously. I happen to enjoy a delicious Greek pizza.

All right, fine. I'm not going to argue with you about pizza like we just moved to fucking Los Angeles. Oh my God, you can't get good pizza here. You can't really, can you? That's okay. Are you an actor? Are you a writer?

Go back to New York. We have plenty of those. We're good. We're full. We're full. I don't eat a lot of pizza you know but i'm very picky about when i do eat it like i never eat it because i'm a fucking weirdo you're about weight you're very very slim right now i know too slim is there such a thing no i don't think so i don't either i just watched myself and glow so fat right i watched the first two episodes and glow of. The new season, and I lost all this weight between seasons.

Do you get to watch them before the rest of us? Well, the reason I got to watch these was because of this show. Oh, because you did ADR. Oh, because of this. I have access to Netflix screeners, press screeners. Very nice. And they just stuck the first two up there, and I'm a little thin. Are you happy with your work mark

i was i was like i would i was is it weird i felt so good to be so thin but i think i read a little thing can i ask you something you've probably been asked a million times yeah is it weird that people tell you you're this is like your role like this is so you when you did a show that was you you're more you on glow right that's what people say oh then within my own show sam is more you well he's got no i think sam is not neurotic so and he's not self-reflective so i don't think that it's exactly like me i think he's he's uh you know the heart's there and the the nastiness is there but not a lot of self-reflection which is completely different than me i am a fan thank you so much you're so welcome okay so you're in Swampscott.

You're checking out Godspell Records. You're doing theater in high school? A little bit, yeah. Like musicals? Whatever they had, yeah. It was a small theater program, but yeah. You have Jewish boyfriends? No.

Not Jewish boyfriends. Never? Not in high school. Nope. Just Irish kids? Greeks or Italians? Yeah, some of those. Some of those. High school. Hmm. Nope. Just Irish kids, Greeks or Italians? Yeah, some of those. Some of those.

High school was okay. Yeah. You know, I mean, high school was fine. You were popular? I wasn't popular, but I did have a nice, you know, did you see Booksmart? Mm-hmm. It's sort of, obviously, that's an incredibly modern take on being a teenager, and I loved it. Mm-hmm.

But I thought one thing I did kind of get was that by the time you're a senior, kids, at least in my experience, they were kind of nice to each other. It wasn't, there wasn't this- You made it through. Yeah. Because everyone was once again scared of the next thing. Very much so. Right.

Everyone got vulnerable again. It felt like it was the antidote to the John Hughes-ian kind of, you know, complete click rate late in high school. I didn't have that. So we had a nice class. And then I went to BU. I hated BU. I went to BU.

I know you did. I hated it. It was not for me. That was when I first realized I was very depressed. Yeah. And I should have. Where'd you live? Warren Towers?

I didn't live in Warren. I should have lived in Warren. I lived in Claflin, West Campus. Oh, West Campus is weird. It's all weird. It's all jocks. It felt almost Soviet. I was given a Floridian roommate who used the N-word within like 10 minutes of me.

I was like, who uses that even now? It's the 90. What? And then she was asking for grits. I remember at the. Really? Yeah, it was very cute. So it was like you landed on another planet.

You're like, how is this possible? It was very odd. I just didn't. That's weird. West Campus was this weird place. It was right by the stadium. And there's like those three buildings, right? Or something up there. Yeah. It just didn't. That's weird. West Campus was this weird place. It was right by the stadium and there's like those three buildings, right? Or something up there.

Yeah. I, it was super weird. I just, it was the wrong school for me. I don't think I understood at the time what one should try to get out of a college experience. Who does? Well, I. You're supposed to do whatever the fuck you want to do. I agree with you, but I also think that we're much more communicative in this generation with our children, or at least in the generations in between,

about explaining just that. How old are your kids? Nine and 11. Oh, so they're thinking humans. Yeah, they have opinions. It's really annoying. It's much easier when they're babies, I think. So you got there,

you did communications or something? I went for theater. Oh, you did? School for the Arts, yeah. Oh, you were at School for the Arts, so. Oh, you were at School for the Arts. So you got in there. You auditioned for it. I auditioned and I got in.

And within 24 hours, I had transferred out after getting in there. It was a pretty good program by then, though. It might have been. But I thought, in my mind at the time, I had my parents' very practical headspace going, you can't go and ride around on a floor reading. But they let you do it? Did they just assume you would i don't yeah they were very it's funny they were very permissive in the actions but they were very

specific in their thoughts so everything was like i mean you can do it and i was like well that doesn't inspire a tremendous amount of confidence like you can if you want yeah yeah okay what do you want me to say no yeah exactly what i used That's what I used to get. Oh, exactly. It's the fucking worst. So it was like it just ruins your enjoyment, potential full optimized enjoyment. Well, yeah, because it's like, can't you just say what you're thinking so I can fight it?

What do you got to, you know, clearly show that you're okay with it, but you don't approve of it, but you're going to let me decide. Can't you just fucking decide? My parents were a little bit older. I mean, my parents are the same age as your parents. Now.

Now. And so that's a 10-year difference. And so they were, they didn't, I think I was like an alien to them. I think they were very confused. I think they were raising a kid in a place where they weren't familiar with how kids are raised because they were both raised amongst all their cousins in these slightly urban areas. And alien's a nice way. It's better than being a sort of weird intrusion or annoyance. No, I felt like that too.

That's right. My parents were young and there was a time of transition and they were self-involved and it was just sort of like, we're here, we're still in the house. I mean, that's the thing is like, I think mine had that too. Yeah. And I was just sort of, I don't think they expected me to be as much work as I probably was. Well, how do you, how does that translate to how you parent? Oh, I'm trying to change that blueprint a lot.

I mean, listen, you change your blueprint if you're raising them in a completely different geographical place to begin with. Right. But then once you've been through a lot of therapy, you also, I'm trying to parent in the way that I would have wanted to be parented. I really am. Is it working? Do you think they're-

I mean, my son was kicked out of two preschools. So, I don't know. What did he do? Bit. He bit? He was a biter. And I know, and everyone's like, he's just like you. I know.

And my daughter's just like John. I don't think he can hide the thing from him. I don't think there's a lot I can hide from them but i've tried to there are moments where i'm caught with what is an instinct in what i will say to them and i will catch myself and go well what would i want do you want me to say a great do exactly exactly you know what i'll give you a good example my daughter yeah my daughter she's 11 she is a terrific kid. She just is. She's a nice kid.

She loves musical theater. Yes, we have completely embedded that in her. But she also took off with it, to be fair. It's better than the hair. Yeah. Oh, better the box of hair? Yeah, didn't give her the box of hair yet. Or the box, the pile of hair.

The pile of hair. Hair pile's coming. She'll get Bum-Mizu. She'll learn about it before Bum-Mizu. But now, you know, she, so I thought, okay, I'll take her to see Les Mis. she'll learn about it before about but now you know she um so i thought okay i'll take her to see les mis she'll absolutely love it so i said to her the other day i'm like hey i can get last minute tickets to see les mis a rob we should go yeah and her face just kind of screwed up like i'm having a sleepover tonight and i thought to myself you can have a fucking

sleepover any goddamn day of the week i'm about to take you to a nice musical. This will be a moment for mother-daughter. But I know that my mother would be like, okay, like, Jesus. I mean, go be with your friends. It made me feel terrible about being an 11-year-old who wants to be with her fucking friends. So I really did take a deep breath and go, I get it.

You know what? That's cool. Of course, I totally want to fucking stab her and be like, I'm going to take you to the theater, bitch. Then you go into the other room like, what the fuck do I do with these tickets? Very much so. But that's a small example. But I am trying to, I mean, that's a real trivial example.

But it must be hard because I don't have kids and I'm not unhappy about it. I understand. But that idea, because my brother has a tremendously difficult time communicating with his 17-year-old now. And it's to the point where it's like, I don't know what to say to him. It's like, maybe just try to be supportive or whatever. Or don't say anything. He's going to work it out. Yeah, it's just like, I can't talk to him.

You know, I can't. He likes things I don't understand. But it's like, no, but that's the thing. It's like, they're your friends to a degree. Correct. But you can't be hurt in the same way that you're hurt by a friend who disappoints you. Well, the other thing. Right?

100%. And you have to remind them periodically that you're not their big, big older friend. You're in charge of their safety and well-being and also education, things like that. I mean, for me, I think it's also been wanting to be a cool parent that's a respected parent. Right. You know? I mean, look, we all want that. We all want that balance.

I'm trying. I try to keep up with what they're listening to and watching. You do. But that's also the immaturity of being in this business. I happen to know who some of the artists and things that they listen to are. My parents didn't. Well, but I just think being attentive on some level, even with your age is there there's a this weird generational thing i just read this book about this sort of like the army of unfuckable hate nerds that you know

that just the celeb what are they called the the there's a lot of it yeah yeah the ant cells but there's other ones but there's a whole but like these are people whose parents are like i don't know he's in his room on his computer yeah ending the world and learning you know things that they shouldn't know and putting together a value system

that's completely morally bankrupt you know how we parent I try things like that that I know are fucking useless and nutritional

educationally vapid ridiculous that shit I try to scare them I use the AIDS you can get AIDS from a toilet seat metaphor

I know you can't get AIDS from a toilet seat but when I was growing up I was told you could get AIDS from a toilet seat by who oh America if I remember correctly and my parents and everybody that was on TV it was like you can get AIDS from a toilet seat you'd be careful with the toilet seat now within months that was debunked and we knew you couldn't get it unless you put the toilet seat in your ass a hundred percent and fuck get it. Unless you put the toilet seat in your ass. 100%. Fuck the toilet seat. Italy, fuck the toilet seat that has to have the AIDS virus. It's got to go get a blood test first

to the toilet seat. I, in my mind, when I hear AIDS, I think, you can get AIDS from a toilet? No, you can't. Right. But it just sort of like

is in there. I'm trying to scare the shit. Wedges in. I tell my children, anything you put in type on a screen could be on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard. That's your diary. Every time you type something, every picture you take, if you don't want it on a billboard for everybody to see, don't take it. Don't write it. But what about the other thing, which is like everything you see is going to,

it might lodge in your head and it might be incorrect and you might not be able to get rid of it and you're going to have to process it somehow. But it will scare them from believing that the things that they see on screens are law and that that is how the world works. I just want them to have a seed of doubt about every single thing that they're seeing because if they don't, then they are ruled by Snapchat eventually. I mean, there's a lost generation. I agree. I think I'm lucky because my kids are just young enough that we really saw how horrible the YouTube complete absorption by YouTube is.

Well, it makes them all these front-brain people that don't go deep and don't process anything. They don't read anymore. This entire generation, they don't read at all. At all. That's too bad. They just don't. My kid won't read. He doesn't process anything. They don't read anymore. This entire generation, it's just they don't read at all. At all. That's too bad. They just don't. My kid won't read. He doesn't like reading.

Okay, well, or did you think about maybe taking away the iPad just for a little bit? Because then they might actually, I mean, listen, my kids don't necessarily sit down and be like,

I'm going to read a beautiful novel this afternoon. Mom, you go nap. Yeah. I mean, it's not that, but, and they're not Luddites. They have all that shit.

But I like to decrease the enjoyment a little bit by saying it's dangerous and it'll give you AIDS. Yeah. You get AIDS from looking at it. So what happened? So you go to the fine arts and what freaked you out? That was my parents in my head. But like, did you go one day? How does one day?

I mean, I went to, I think it was a summer orientation and it was within the summer orientation, I thought. Oh, so before you even started. Correct. And then you switched to. And then I switched to liberal arts and within six months

I was at communications. Over there, yeah. Yeah, I thought, well, I'll waste time over here instead. Yeah.

The truth is, is I shouldn't, I should have taken a gap year. I should have gone to a smaller school. I should have. You just got lost and you got depressed and you ate a lot?

I didn't eat a lot. Or would you go the other way? No, I guess I ate probably. I've never been. It's always been right down the line of a little too many pounds, but not enough to worry about. Oh, but how'd you come unhinged then? You just what?

Acute loneliness and a lot of alone time. I have this like, I just don't look there were lost years i don't know what i was doing um i did wind up finding the improv group which i enjoyed at bu at bu really and i don't think there was one when i was there it wasn't it wasn't called spontaneous combustion no i was in stage troupe oh i did stage troupe too yeah i did do stage troupe and i liked those people a lot it was nice because it wasn't so much pressure and everybody was sort of like into it and they did like what two shows a year or something. I wound up doing stage troupe and I liked that. Yeah.

But those things, then I was confused because I thought I'm enjoying these extracurriculars and I'm not into my classes. And also I was at the film school, I think the year after I graduated was when they brought in the avids. So it was like I was scotch taping, chunking the film, like making a Bolex film. Did you take any classes with John Kelly? Definitely. Definitely. He was odd, wasn't he? Yeah.

From what I remember. Yeah. I used to get high and go to the classes and watch movies. I took like the, because I minored in film criticism. So I was just doing those classes where I'd go watch the history of film class. Sure, I did those. Yeah, yeah. They were great.

They were wonderful and they were really fun, but I also, then I still had that voice in the top of my head. Oh, so you moved from rolling around on the floor reciting Pinter

to watching movies. So then I was like, oh, you've managed to make an even more lazy education. So then I felt guilty and then I was just confused. I thought, am I supposed to, I truly didn't have the answers and I didn't know who, you've managed to make it even more lazy education. So then I felt guilty. And then I was just confused. I thought, am I supposed to? I truly didn't have the answers and I didn't know who to ask the questions to.

Am I supposed to be learning a vocation? Or am I supposed to be filling my head with philosophies? I'm confused. I just didn't have a path and I felt stupid asking questions. I don't think I did either, but I was so excited to be able to. You also were coming from Arizona, which was exciting. New Mexico. But I always got very close to my East Coast relatives.

I wasn't, like, in some outback, you know? I understand. I look back at it all and think, there were other options that would have been better. I just didn't know what they were. Yeah, but look, but you did it. You learned how to tape film together. Yes, I learned how to scotch tape the chukun. I mean, I, uh yeah college was not my

my my high point but the improv thing is what blew your mind yeah and i thought and then i would beat myself up thinking like oh you're just lazy you don't want to memorize anything i was a real i was very very very very depressed yeah but i but that that's sort of like i think that if anything is fundamentally jewish it's not guilt It's the never good enough thing. For sure. It doesn't even really manifest as ambition as much as it does just self-criticism. And that no matter what you do, it's just not quite as good as it should be. 100%.

I was just never... And also, you have to remember all those women that I mentioned, my Yenta brigade that I'm bringing up again. Right. They were, they were my, they were my equals, right?

They were my, my constants and they were going on to master's degrees and they were going on to, they were all so bright and so academic and seemed so confident. And I was so confused. What are they all doing now they're all doing really really well and listen i'm doing well too after a long time of soul searching and confusing routes but but it was very interesting at the time because i just felt less

than i thought right my friends across the way at harvard my friend is over at trinity my friend is over at you know brand or tuft. They all know what they're doing and they all seem really okay with their path. And by the way, they knew what they were doing. They knew what they wanted. That was what it was.

I didn't want to do what they were doing, but I wanted to know that what I was doing was the right thing. I'd rather be confused and sad at Harvard than it be.

100%. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was just like, I just, I never felt like a square peg. So what happened? It's so boring

well after college yeah this is where it gets kind of interesting i thought all right well i still like performing i like doing improv so i auditioned for summer stock thinking okay i don't even by the way ask me to define summer stock i'm not 100 sure what it is i know that's theaters and sometimes they run for the summer season or whatever all over new England. Right. So Williamstown I guess would be considered summer stock. Yeah that was a big one. Right. And I'm thinking like oh I could get into it. Sure why not. I mean you just go and audition. I auditioned at the New England Theater Conference auditions which is

a giant cattle call. I did the same thing but I went to Yale. I tried to get into Yale drama. How'd that go? Terrible. I mean it's a really good school. Why don't you go to Yale Mark? It's the best school. Jamie why don't you do Williamstown? That's a really good school why don't you go to Yale Mark it's the best school Jamie why don't you do Williamstown

that's a good idea I should do Williamstown I'm so unprepared why don't we go do Saturday Night Live we do what they do I try to do that yeah

I wound up auditioning I was terrible by the way all these graduates from the school for the arts they show up with their headshots oh my god they know what they're doing

they have headshots they have and you knew right there when you're waiting to audition, right? You're like, oh, what am I? I was like,

I don't know if this is 16 bar. How do you count a bar for a song, for a thing? Classical contemporary model. Please. I was terrible. I got exactly.

So there's a hundred theater company representatives. It's just like, it's like we went there to hurt ourselves. To pain. I just want them to tell me to justify the pain inside. It's a human, it's cutting. It's mental like we went there to hurt ourselves. To pain. I just want them to tell me to justify the pain inside.

It's a human, it's cutting. It's mental cutting. You're terrible. Great. Thank you so much. I knew it. I knew I was right. I love being right about how shitty I am.

So I auditioned and I got a callback for something called the Sterling Renaissance Festival. But I thought it was Shakespeare in the Park. Right. This was before Google. But you thought it was Shakespeare in the Park. Right. This was before Google. But you couldn't even do Shakespeare if you wanted to, right? But why couldn't I? I mean, I could go to Williamstown. Of course I could do Shakespeare.

Yeah, right. Anybody can just words, English words that you say out loud. So yeah, I could totally do it. I got a callback and I thought, well, this is fun. They're having us improvise. So there must be an improvised element. It was a brochure. I didn't read the brochure.

Right. And I got the job and i thought i am going away for the summer to do shakespeare in the park yeah so i borrowed my dad's car and i drove six hours north to lake ontario it was outside of oswego and uh i got there and i realized that i was working at a renaissance festival that that's when you realized it yeah i mean i i sort of was like oh renaissance it's like shakespeare in my mind it was like we're gonna get up in the middle of the woods and do shakespeare for a paying audience like that and by the way that is a very small element of it but that is not what a renaissance festival is a renaissance festival how familiar are you have you ever been i'm just in a sort of like distant, judgmental, condescending way. Fair enough.

You know, like I can picture it. Sure. You think you can, but okay. No, not in detail, but it's people that, you know, dress up. It's the Renaissance and you go act like you're in the Renaissance and there's beer maids and knights and things. Correct. There's a lot of that stuff. But what I also realized was that this was an entire new layer of humanity, of functional adults.

Sure, it's like fantasy world. And I was confused because, I mean, everybody was, I mean, there were people who had kids. And there were people who made this their life. And they were a bit nomadic. And they would travel to different festivals. Well, that's funny because you and I are similar in that. Like, you know, there are people, and I'm learning more about them now because of my ignorance and judgment. Sure. about them now because of my ignorance and judgment, that engage in, can be, but usually

isn't entirely a healthy fantasy. They're into fantasy shit and they go dress up and they do it every once a year or whatever. They feel more themselves there than back in the cubicle. So explain it to me. So all these people with kids. Well, they're people that work on the circuit. And a lot of them have very specialized skills. Oh, so you're actually part of the employees and then people come.

And then there's also people. That pay to be there for the weekend or whatever. Well, they pay to be there for the day, right? Or you can be there for a season. Renaissance festivals run anywhere between. But is there just an audience that shows up dressed up? The whole audience sometimes does not dress up, but people go for the day.

It's almost like a county fair, but with a theme. And there are people that perform in very specialized ways. So you'll see comedy shows and vaudevillian type acts. You'll see clowning. You'll see old world clowning. You'll see sword swallowing and fire and all kinds of stuff that you don't necessarily see in that setting anywhere else. You know, you see a lot of outdoor entertainment. You see jousting.

You see really random stuff. And then you see crafters and people who build and make and do this incredibly specialized sword making. The guy on an anvil somewhere. Yes. Hammering some steel. Yes. And this is his job. And he will take that, his

supply and go to another fair every couple of months. Well some of those people now, since things have shifted to the more authentic they have permanent shops now. 100%. They had them then. That's the thing. If you really want to get into the Ren Faire. The Ren Faire started as a hippie thing.

It started in the 60s out in Laurel Canyon. Right. Spread throughout the country. Just read about this. And every fair is ultimately, they have their own set of rules. So you've got very authentic fairs where you've got Queen Elizabeth and you've got very specific members of her court. And you've got a real history buffs paradise. Yeah.

And then you've got ones that are very fantasy and very like anything goes and bring your sitar and dress like a stormtrooper and nobody cares. And they've got the comic con element and everything else. And to a certain degree, these fairs have to change with that because of the crossover. So the people from the Renaissance have to indulge some contemporary combat people. Well, it's kind of fun when they indulge Bill and Ted or Marty McFly, because that all makes sense. So the Star Trek guys who are just on the holodeck yeah but yes you know it people come to play yeah that's to me was the biggest impression that i i had when i got there what was your job my job was to help fill out the immersive interactive entertainment and improv at the fair so i played different characters throughout the day and i would do shakespeare

cuttings and i would be the sheriff's daughter what's a shakespeare cutting like we would do we would do pieces pieces yeah but it was not let sheriff's daughter. What's a Shakespeare cutting? Like we would do. We would do. Pieces? Pieces. Yeah. But it was not. Let's put it this way. Wasn't Shakespeare in the park. Right.

And what I think I was struck by was. It's more like one on one Shakespeare. Well, yeah. A little bit. I mean, you would. You. Part of what your job was to was to make everyone feel like they were part of. So you just walk up to a crowd of people. Correct.

And start doing. Aye, good sir. Wouldst thou give me a bit of change? No, you for I am most hungry. Yes. But here's what I also learned. As horrifying as that can be to certain people.

Entertainment existing somewhere between what my understanding of being an entertainer was. You were a movie star or you were a waitress. Right? Or you were a very specialized performer. A standup, right. You were something that made sense. This was an area of entertainment

and it was low-brow or low-brow, low cost, let's say, theme park entertainment. And that was something I just didn't understand was a job that people could have. And it was when I first realized, oh, I can do improv for a living. That's weird. And that was what that looked like to you? Well, at that people could have. And it was when I first realized, oh, I can do improv for a living. That's weird. And that was what that looked like to you?

Well, at that time, yeah. And then I went from there to work at Disney World because there was crossover. So like you met somebody? The artistic director of all the improv shows and the interactive improv at the Renaissance Festival. But this is fantasy interactive improv. It's not like... It's a little like Colonial Williamsburg, but in a different era.

Right, but you're not doing long-form heralds or... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nope, no, no, no, not like that. But the guy who was the artistic director also did all the direction for all the shows at Disney in Orlando. For the Renaissance Fair. Yeah, so he would get all of his Disney guys to come up and audition all of us also did all the direction for all the shows at Disney in Orlando. For the Renaissance Fair. Yeah. So he would get all of his Disney guys to come up and audition all of us

since we had this skill set now where we could do immersive improv. And they would hire a bunch of street entertainers for Disney. Now, this was, no, I wasn't Cinderella. What were you? Well, they would fill out the thematic areas in the park. So there was MGM Studios at the time down in Orlando. So you moved to Orlando. I moved to Orlando.

For the improv gig. Correct. And that was something my parents could understand. Oh, she works at Disney. Yeah. What does she do there? She works at Disney. Yeah, yeah.

I did interactive streetmosphere. Streetmosphere. Streetmosphere. So you were like- There were girls off the bus in Hollywood, and I was Wanda Rosenshine, the biggest little star in Hollywood. And we would fill out the streets like 1939 by the way this was not the most effective show because people were really on their way to go see

the indiana jones epic stunt spectacular and things like that but they would hire a little confusing to the kids i think we were confused the grown-ups were kind of like no yeah that's i get it it's holly, like 1939 Hollywood. Yeah. And we would do these original characters. And then for the last part of time that I worked at Disney, I worked at the improv club. They had... They used to have Pleasure Island down in Orlando, which was like their nighttime entertainment complex. And they had a comedy club that did Whose Line Is It Anyway style improv shows.

Oh, so that's when you actually came full circle to doing those type of interview... Correct. That type of improv. For a year, I worked- Suggestion-based improv. Suggestion-based short form improv. Wayne Brady is the goal kind of thing. So I would do three or four shows a night or four or five shows a night, five nights a week.

40-minute shows. And if you sucked, you got back up again. And I learned how to work clean clean which eventually went very quickly away when I moved to New York but it was quite an education well how many years

between the Ren Faire and the Disney experience how many years was that I moved I did I was about

four or five years total wow four years a very unique sort of path it is weird because then eventually after two years in Orlando I thought I'm 24 and I'm living in Orlando.

Or 25. I got to get out of here. And you're working at a theme park. Yeah. Which is like it's a little bit of a head fucker. It is. It can be. And what's interesting about it is there are so many talented performers that wind up landing there because they are done with the regional theater circuit.

They're done being chorus boys and girls on Broadway. But they get coverage and they get insurance. They get insurance. They can buy houses. They have decent schools. Don't they have like a town they built down there?

Celebration. That's a Disney town. That's super weird and it's mostly Disney employees that live there too. Yeah, it's weird. But the other thing,

sorry, cast members. The other thing that's interesting about Orlando. Do you want us to edit that out? I just want to make sure that Disney doesn't

come down and beam me dead from wherever they're watching me from. Oh really? Do you have a lifelong fear that out? I just want to make sure that Disney doesn't come down and beam me dead from wherever they're watching me from. Oh, really? Do you have a lifelong fear of Disney? Everybody's watching everybody. So nobody cares. The Disney police? The Disney police.

Mouschwitz, which is what they used to call it. But the other thing that was interesting is that they have an incredible theater fringe festival in Orlando. Because there are so many truly talented people that just do their nine to five gigs at the theme parks and make their overtime and make their health and everything else and then their their fringe festival is insane it's alternative and weird and fucked up and in orlando yes yes some of the most talented people in the world i knew where's that documentary i'm telling you that's what it should be is it still there oh yeah they it every year. Some of the best actors in the world down there. Philip Nolan, you'll never know his name outside of Orlando. He is better than the best. Really? Yeah. But they,

um, I moved from there to New York cause I thought I can't do this forever. For life. Yeah. And I had, did you know John Telfer in New Yorkork i think i feel like i did yeah so i had his phone number truly written on a piece of paper in my pocket and i called it the night i moved to new york how'd you know him he knew someone who worked doing the improv club directing the improv club oh and he'd been back and forth a few times because it was a good short form gig for someone who does that said yeah you should check out chic Limits. That's where I used to work, the short form improv place in New York. But there's this new company in town and they're sort of like really hot right now. You should go take classes with the Upright Citizens Brigade.

And this is what year? 97. Okay. And so I went and started taking classes with Ian and Amy and- The original crew. Yep. And Matt and- And the first space. In solo and- The original crew. Yep. And that and that. In the first space.

In solo arts, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I felt very lucky. That was my- Was that the space with the old strip club space or the one before that? That was before that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I painted the green room in the old strip club space. Yeah. But yeah, the one in solo arts was up the rickety. Oh, that's right. It was a fire trap. Right, upstairs. And we used to smoke in there. I mean the rickety. It was a fire trap. And we used to smoke in there. I mean, it's a death trap if it's still there.

I love that sort of like the beginnings of it and how it sort of spread out and have this major influence on show business. Because I was there. I don't think I went to the Solo Arts maybe once. But I remember when they moved to the other space. Well, and they used to do eating it all the time. Yeah. So I remember seeing. No, I used to see them there, yeah.

Of course. And there was like tension because it was such a weird stand-up thing, man. Right. Yeah. Yeah, of course. No, but I remember, I mean, it was a magical, that was more my collegiate experience was being there at the beginning, you know, with all those, all the guys that you've known from that community.

Right. You know, I mean, we were all on teams together. So you joined up with them. So what was, how did that take shape? You were taking classes. Took the classes. And then, but at that time there were so few, it was like the tipping point, right? It was under a hundred people. So everybody knew each other's name. Yeah. We all were on teams together and we all were performing regularly and you could get up on any day of the week and i was doing shows five nights a week and doing the improvs the heralds yeah but i was but i was still miss piggy ish thank you julie klausner at that time who were the guys that were like they're everybody rob riggle paul sheer rob hubel corddry seth morris

brian husky uh ed helms i remember doing stand-up and then coming by. I was all those guys. And then a lot of the women that have struggled twice as hard for half as much. Myself, Donna Fuhrman, Daniel Schneider, Jessica St. Clair, Lennon Parham, Julie Brister, Betsy Stover. And that's where you met your husband? Yeah, we were friends for a long time. We met in Amy's level two. Really?

Yeah. So from there, then you stayed in New York and then- I was in New York for about five and a half years. And then I was getting- Were you teaching by that point? Yep. I was teaching and I was getting work in LA. I got up, my first pilot was the Wayne Brady Show.

One of the iterations of the Wayne Brady Show. And then I wound up, the best thing, I got a job, my first real pilot outside of that was I played Dave Foley's wife in this show called What's Up Peter Fuddy. And it was John Larroquette and Dave Foley and Dave Koechner and Arden Marine. And yeah, it was a big deal.

I was so excited. Didn't go? No, no, no. What's the first thing that went that you were on that where you're like, I have a job in show business? God, was it Happy Hour? It might've been a show called Happy Hour. We shot 13 and four aired, I think.

Yeah. I became a career guest star. What's Terriers? Oh, Terriers was a great show. People love that show. It's with Donald Logue and Michael Raymond James and I was the pregnant lawyer and that was fun

because that's a cool show. Yeah. That was a cool show that everybody was mad. But that wasn't the first one. Mm-mm. No, Happy Hour. Happy Hour,

but they don't even have that listed. Happy Hour wanted to be friends. Yeah. Oh. But it wasn't. It didn't make, it just fizzled out.

No, it just somehow didn't fill that. But did you move out here on Happy Hour? No, I moved out here on happy hour no i moved out here when i was almost 30 and um or or when i was 30 and i just was like it was time i was just i was i thought gotta go yeah and did you get married when you got out here a couple years after i came out yeah because like i'm looking at this and it's like yeah you you know you just

you do show up on just about everything. Yeah, one episode of everything. And then you did, but the Rona and- Rona and Beverly, yeah. Rona and Beverly. That kind of, you kind of ran with that for a while. You had your own show.

You had the podcast. And you did it. Did you do a movie? We didn't, but what we would do is we would get cast as a duo in other things. So Paul Feig, who directed our original pilot with Jenji Kohan producing back in 10 years ago now. Right, for a Rana and Bev show.

For a Rana and Beverly show for Showtime. Yeah. That was a heartbreaker. I thought that was gonna go. I mean, that was like- Because you guys really did that thing a lot. We did. You know, people really responded to it.

It's huge in the gay community, huge in the Jewish community, huge in the people who like comedy community. You could tour at Jewish community centers. Go fuck yourself. Okay, go ahead. We, um...

You never did one Jewish community center gig? We did one temple and it was, we bombed because it was basically performing for the exact same fucking people

that were on stage and they were like, what, I don't understand. What is funny about that? I say that all the time. Terrible. Um, we, listen, we were selling out the bell house. I mean, we were- I wasn't being condescending. You can be.

No, I did a one-man show called Jerusalem Syndrome and I had an agent at the time that tried to book me at Jewish community centers and it was too heavy. I remember when you were doing it. At the West Beth, yeah. But, you know, it was an interesting path. um but you know it was um it was an interesting path that sort of happened by accident that show and it was almost too easy i felt like we were just kind of riffing on being our parents and our mothers and all their communities and i realized at the time oh i guess it's resonating and maybe it doesn't have to be a struggle it's coming very

easily to me why not people are liking it they liked it yeah and um we were also early in on the podcasting thing. Sure. You know, so, I mean, whenever we were here with you, that was like the first year of our podcast. Right. I think it was 2011, something like that. So, we were the first acquisition from Earwolf where they just picked something else up.

Right. Thank you, Cool Up. And we, it became popular because of that, which was great. Yeah. And then, you know, 12 years, which was great. Yeah. And then, you know, 12 years, it's a good run. What's Jessica doing? She's on a show.

She's on Abby's for NBC. Oh, good. You know, we creatively, I think, went in different places. Friends? Yeah. So this new thing, which they didn't send me a screener of. Oh, they didn't? I'll give you the screener.

I know enough about it to know that it draws extensively from your Ren Faire experience. Yes, it does. Finally comes around. Well, yeah, it does. Like I said, I always felt as much as I loved the UCB community back in those beginning days and really felt like I finally had that collegiate experience that I never got. and really felt like I finally had that collegiate experience that I never got, I still felt like there's a part of me that is so earnest and weird and attached to the fucking Renaissance Festival

and attached to Disney and attached to being a Miss Piggy that did not fucking fit in. But I love the fact that it gives you, the experience of people that come up in the improv system, it's almost like a trade school. So by doing what you did and throwing yourself into this weirdo land

and then kind of like seeing it as a practical career, then you go to the big time, which is Disney, and you realize the limitation of that and that's where you kind of formulate the idea that you could be part of proper kind of formulate the idea that you could be part of you know proper show business i really took an unconventional path yeah not that disney theme park work is not proper show no it is but it's not what it's limitations it's uh very much so yeah and it is where like i said a lot of talented people go to to just live and

exist and do their job and have security. Right. And that, when you start saying security in show business, that is the limitation, you know. Right. But, you know, everybody starts saying that at a certain age, and it gets kind of scary if you've dedicated your life to something and it's been a sort of like ongoing, you know,

up and down disappointment. Constant. It still is. Well, usually what happens is you get down to a certain line, it's like, I don't have another skill set. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I've been saying that for a really long time now.

So I'm really wedged in. No plan B. Yeah. This is plan B. So what was the birth of this idea? Well, it's a story that I've clearly wanted to tell for 25 years. Yeah. I mean, ever since I went there, I thought-

American Princess, it's called. American Princess for a lifetime. And it's the story of a Jewish American, like my husband says, the Jewish is silent. Yeah. So,

Jewish American Princess runs away to the Renaissance Festival and again, like I, I always thought of myself as Private Benjamin at the Renaissance Festival.

To me, it was like, I don't belong here. I'm the only Rennie with Israeli savings bonds supplementing my income. Like, this doesn't make any sense. You got that many at your bat mitzvah oh yeah they were worth that much at

that time i wasn't allowed to touch them mark i know i i found mine later and they didn't they didn't accrue much well listen i don't know how much more i could get than like a couple hundred but i was like to me that was something yeah but i was definitely like i don't fit there's no jews here like this is just not this is this is not where normal people go. But I loved it. And so it's a story I did a one-person show about. I have some screenplay somewhere that's 150 pages, Christopher Guest style. It's just a story I always wanted to tell.

And when I had the opportunity to start taking- Fish Out of Water at the Renaissance Festival. And it's a Jewish fish. Northern Exposure. It was an entitled Jewish fish. Yes, entitled Jewish fish who was supposed to go to college and get a master's and a husband and everything else. festival and it's a jewish fish northern exposure it was an entitled jewish yes entitled jewish fish who was supposed to go to college and get a master's and a husband and everything else like all of my yenta brigade yeah so i wind up um at the ren fair and and i it's a story anyway i wound up taking genji to the renaissance festival a few times more than a few times over the years

and she loved it and i think she always knew i wanted to do something with it she wound up having the opportunity a couple years into Orange she gets the opportunity to pitch it to pitch something to the History Channel yeah she calls me and you want to pitch the Ren Faire thing and I'm like whatever the Ren Faire thing is sure I'll come pitch it they pass on it but they're like oh funny not for us great a year later the executive at the History Channel moves over to Lifetime yeah calls Jenji and Tara and says, I think this might be the right place for that show that you came in with. So it's been kicking around for years? Yeah. And Jenji's producing?

Yeah, Jenji's producing. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, look, we're connected. Oh my God, it's like Barbara Walters. Kind of. It's kind of like that, Mark. Show business genetically connected. Isn't that wonderful?

We both have the same godmother. Yeah, I love Jenji. Yeah, she's wonderful. Yeah. And so- So that's how the show happened. And did she, like, but you did, did you, once you pitched it, did you have it on paper? I mean, did you have a show? Yeah. So are you just, are you, what are you doing? Are you going to be it? I'm the showrunner. You're the showrunner. You're not going to be in it. I maybe do a cameo. Right.

But no, I'm no, I'm no longer in front of the camera unless someone invites me to do it and I don't have to go through any kind of audition process. In general? Preferably, I'd like to be a prisoner or a patient so I can lie down or be in pajamas. So you don't do any on-camera work anymore? No. Really? Yeah.

You retired from on-camera work? There's someone better than me for everything I've ever auditioned for. I really believe that. This isn't a, oh, I hate myself. Oh, come on. No, I'm serious. You just did Andrea's show. That wasn't that long ago.

That was two years ago. So you retired since then? Yeah. Since I started show running? Yeah, who has time to fucking audition? No, I get it, okay, right. Yeah, no, I prefer to- Since you started doing American Princess.

Correct. Okay, got it. I'm an executive producer. Got it. I much prefer to be on the side. I like being a writer. I like running a writer's room. Yeah. I like making decisions.

I like making them quickly and efficiently. Who plays the lead? Her name's Georgia Flood. Uh-huh. She's wonderful. She is, I mean, it's a hard role to fill. We were looking for a young Goldie Hawn. Not a young me, a young Goldie Hawn.

So what was the one-liner pitch? So what is it? Private Benjamin at the Renaissance Festival. But it was. It was an Upper East Side socialite. Okay. Her wedding goes off the pitch? So what is it? Private Benjamin at the Renaissance Festival. But it was. It was an Upper East Side socialite. Okay. Her wedding goes off the rails. So she's 20?

She's 25, 26. Wedding goes off the rails, winds up by mistake at a Renaissance Festival, stays there to get her shit together, and maybe stays longer. Who knows? But she, yeah, it was a tough role to cast. It sounds like a unique show. It is a unique show, but people constantly are like,

where'd you get the idea? It's so interesting. How can they never have done it? My life. And I'm like, yeah, well, my life. I mean, not the wedding part, obviously, but we needed something dramatic to kick her off to get there.

But the best part is that she wanders in and thinks it's just a theme wedding. Right. So it all makes sense. Yeah. And how many episodes did you shoot? 10. And it's going to be on Lifetime now.

I imagine we're putting this up in relation to- Yes, it's Sunday nights. Sunday nights in June and on demand, I guess. But you can't, that's good. So I like shows that go up weekly as opposed to all at once. Well, it keeps it in the conversation a little bit longer. Well, yeah, but you can look forward to something.

Streaming's just ruining people. They're turning into sleepless weirdos who watch everything all at once and then have to sit around for a year. Yeah, you gobble. You just gobble it and swallow it, and then it's kind of over. And then it's like, get away the year, at least,

if it comes back. Well, it's heroin. I mean, it's like, I need a fix. I need a new show. I need a new show. I need a new show. I mean, and they don't come that fast. I think they wish it was like that.

It seems to me that the sad part about it is like I still like, you know, like I find that knowing John Oliver is going to be on once a week. I agree with you. I can sit down and do the thing. An appointment. And even my kids have a sense of that because they'll sit down and be like, oh, we're watching. Well, with us, it's RuPaul's Drag Race. But, you know. But at some point, I like knowing that if I want to watch,

what's the one, the West one? Oh, Westworld. Not Westworld, the other one. I love Westworld. Deadwood? Yeah, if I want to watch Deadwood. Is Westworld Deadwood for girls?

I don't know. I don't know what either of them are. I've seen bits and pieces of them. Okay. You're never going to know what Westworld is about just from watching bits and pieces. No, I know. I'm not going to know what any of them are about. But if I want to, I can stream it then.

Yes, you can. That's what streaming is for. It's like I miss that when it happened. I agree. I have a year. I agree. I don't know why. I think Hulu's got the right model because they'll drop like three episodes

of The Handmaid's Tale and then only do it every other week. So you're really hooked in. Like they've got the happy medium. I wish that they were all doing that. I think it'll come back to that. I think it will. Yeah, because eventually Netflix

is just going to tap everybody out. There's just going to be so many shows that are just going to fall through the cracks. There's already so many shows. You drive by that soundstage like on Gower where they've got a giant poster

of all their shows are written out and it's just, it hurts me. Yeah. It just makes my head hurt. Yeah. It's a lot.

I can't, like I sit there, I don't get it. Not that I don't want Netflix to pick up American Princess. Right. Well,

I watch it, I go to the homepage of Netflix and I'm like, oh God. That's a lot of homework. I just, I finally, just because I have a little more space now, like I'm like, oh, God. That's a lot of homework. I finally, just because I have

a little more space now, I was like, I'll watch a couple documentaries. I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to watch a documentary. I love a documentary. Did you watch that fucking John Lennon thing

they have up now? No. Oh, my God. Is it amazing? It's great. I watched, I had the flu this year and I watched Icarus

and the Amy Winehouse one and I watched the Nina Simone and I Amy Winehouse one and I watched the Nina Simone and I love that was good this one is like there's just so much of him just being John that you've never seen before and I'm just sitting there I'm like crying and I'm like I you know I you realize like I love that guy and you know and it's just to see him I understand and I never saw that much of him ever that's how I felt too was it the Robin oh yeah

just to like all of a sudden it's like where was this footage when but it's better now yeah of course it is

well look you feel good I feel good okay do you feel good you go to Temple on Holidays no okay

we watch Fiddler on the Roof start to finish on every Yom Kippur and when the kid gets older show her yeah of course okay it's time for the hair pile fiddle on the roof start to finish on every Yom Kippur. And when the kid gets older, show her. Yeah, of course. Okay.

It's time for the hair pile. Good luck with the show. I'm excited to watch it. I'm sorry I didn't have a screener, but I think we got it. And say hi to your husband. Thanks, Mark. Tell him not to be afraid of me.

I will. It's going to be a rough one. Okay, bye. Okay, Jamie Dembo. That was fun, right? I like it. Engaging. Kind of like intense.

She's intense. That's the word I was looking for before. The new show, American Princess, is airing on Lifetime. New episode, Sunday nights. Let's ease out with some nice guitar sounds Thank you. guitar solo Boomer Lives. And you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those.

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And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.