WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1036 - Sean Lennon

Episode Date: July 15, 2019

Sean Lennon admits that he was naïve about his family legacy when he began a career in music. He also admits that when he received bad reviews for his first solo record, deep down he agreed with them. Sean talks with Marc about how he grew into himself as an artist and musician, how “John and Yoko” as the world sees them are different from his dad and mom as he knows them, and how the trauma of losing his father at a young age left him with memories that will never go away. They also talk about his work with Les Claypool, scoring films, and producing for other artists, including his mom. This episode is sponsored by Google Fi, Ben & Jerry's, and Stan Lee's Alliances: A Trick of Light, an Audible Original. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking east does what's happening it's mark maron it's me presenting mark maron thank you what's going on before I get too carried away,

Sean Lennon is here. Sean Lennon. Yeah. Son of John and Yoko. One of the sort of, by no intention of himself, somewhat royalty. Rock and roll royalty.

A prince, really. And I'm sure that's not going to make him happy. But we had a lovely conversation. And you'll hear that soon. I would like to say I hope everyone's all right here in Manhattan. Apparently half the fucking island went dark last night, and one of our screenings got canceled. The early screening up at the Landmark 57 got canceled because, I don't know,

I think some kid stuck a fork in a plug, you know, up on the west side and just shut the half the city down. A transformer went. You know, I can't trust my brain anymore around this stuff. I don't know what that means. You know, I did watch the entire season of Stranger Things. There could be there could be monsters involved. That's all I'm saying. I haven't seen anything that indicates that, but I hope everybody made it through all right. We did

lose the screening. I apologize to the people that went to that. There was nothing I could do. There was nothing any of us could do. There was no one we could call. And oddly, and this is hard for me to admit, it didn't have anything to do with me. And it did affect a good deal of Manhattan. And I'm happy to say that it didn't have anything to do with me. But even the fact that it was on the second night of our premiere weekend here in New York City, there was a time where something like that would happen. And I'd be like, this is just my luck.

There are people stuck in elevators, people locked in things. Thousands of people were compromised. I think most of them are okay, but the blackout went on a long time. I don't even know if it's fixed today. I'm recording this Sunday. But there was a time where I'd be like,

this is a sign. This probably happened because of me. This is payback. This is karma for some past behavior, for a vestige of shittiness. I looked up the word vestige before this show, so I'll be using that. Today's word is vestige. Noun, a trace of something that is disappearing or no longer exists yeah my my my past yeah here's the other definition the smallest amount in parentheses used to emphasize the absence of something oh and then in biology a part or organ of an organism that has become reduced or functionless in the course of evolution. That, of course, is happening to a good deal of people with their brains. So the movie, we did a lot of screenings here and there's there's screenings coming up that I want to tell you about. I'll be in Chicago tonight, Monday, at a screening of Sword of Trust at the Music Box Theater.

I'm doing a Q&A with Joe Swanberg after the movie. I've been doing these Q&As in New York with Lynn Shelton. It's just going to be me and Joe. Lynn's going back to work in Los Angeles this Friday, July 19th. The movie opens at the New Art Theater in Los Angeles. Opera Plaza Cinemas in San Francisco. Shattuck Cinemas in Berkeley, E Street Cinema in Washington, D.C., Tiff Bell Lightbox in Toronto, Kendall Square Cinema in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and the Jacob Burns Film Center in Pleasantville, New York. Wow, this movie is really opening up in places. We didn't know this was going to happen. You kind of hope it happens, I guess, but I didn't

anticipate any of this at all. I didn't even think that Lynn was going to be able to make a movie out of what we shot. And not only did she make a movie, but people seem to like the movie and the press has been crazy. It's been crazy. It's been written up in very big outlets that people think are credible. New Yorker magazine, the New York Times, all the ones. We've done a lot of talking on the radio. Press tours are crazy, but it's been fun. But the movie's getting very well received.

It's a very watchable, funny movie. And I'm not bullshitting you. Am I the kind of guy that really bullshits? Am I the kind of guy that even remembers to self-promote? I like the movie, and people are enjoying it, and it's very exciting to kind of step into all these theaters and see the laughter come from uh the the room like real laughter not the program laughter that happens after you watch a movie that took a lot of money to make and the jokes are all worn out before they come out of the faces and you kind of laugh

because there's a rhythm to it and you know you're supposed to laugh that kind of weird surface laugh that kind of hovers somewhere between you know the brain and just above your heart like it's sort of a a reflex like that see that sounded kind of real but it wasn't the laughter that happens with this movie comes from a deep place because you can't control it it's funny how many things we do on reflex patterns people vestiges i don't know if that even fits but I've established it as the word of the day. Lynn and I did Q&As at several, we did like five of them. The first night we did at the 92nd Street Y with my friend Sam Lipsight. It was great to see Sam. It was a

nice conversation. And then my family was supposed to come out. They were all planning to come to the show. That would be my father, his wife Rosie, my Aunt Linda, my Uncle Bill, my cousin Lisa, my dad's cousin Jeff, my dad's cousin Norman, Lisa's kid Nick and his girlfriend. I didn't realize it was going to be that many, but I don't see them that much, so I thought, well, that'll be good.

And then the movie starts, they're not there, and then about an hour into the movie. An entire parade of my family just kind of waddles into the theater and walks by me and Lynn sitting at the back of the theater. I'm like, are you kidding me? An hour in? So I don't know what happened, but it didn't work out exactly right. And now I'm going to another screening today because it's Sunday. And they're trying again.

And I've already gotten a text that there was a train problem. Family, man. It's great. Right. It's great. Good times. So that but that screening was great because Sam was there. And then the following day, Ben Sinclair hosted one.

I never met him before. We had a nice conversation about Southwestern Jews, not on stage, off stage. He grew up in Phoenix where, you know, my brother lives and where my ex-wife, one on stage, off stage. He grew up in Phoenix where my brother lives and where my ex-wife, one of them, is from. I spent a lot of time in Phoenix, so that was exciting. People were laughing and asking fun questions. And then Tom Sharpling and Brendan McDonald, not together, they moderated a couple of the Q&As

down here at the IFC. Always good to see Brendan. It's interesting when Brendan moderates a thing with me because honestly, nobody knows me as well as Brendan McDonald. This guy, you know, he has to listen to all of this shit that I'm saying right now twice a week on top of me talking to people. He's actually got pretty good boundaries, but you know, he knows me real well. So that's always an exciting thing. I always learned something about me i didn't know when brendan talks to me in public uh and you know it's one of those moments where it's like oh okay

that's okay yeah that is me you're right you're right and now now everyone knows and tom sharply of course is terrific and we had a great time with him and then the next night ira glass uh moderated too that was last night and we went out to uh, me and Lynn went out with Ira for a little snack afterwards. Had a nice conversation. I don't think I've ever talked that long to Ira Glass in a nonprofessional environment. And you know what? He's a nice guy. Smart, nice guy.

And apparently he's got a radio show or something on. You're going to have to check that out. This Life is American, I think. But so it's been good. The reception has been good. We've had fun, you know, and moving through the vestiges. You know, Lynn has a past here as well in New York. So she got to show me the vestiges of her past in New York in the shape of buildings and, you know, things that used to be there.

That's what you do when you've lived in New York and it's all gotten away from you. It's like, oh, there used to be a place here where people did bad things i missed that when people did bad things right here at this place and i lived right there right over the bad things happening that's that's the memory of new york if you lived here in the 80s or 90s oh back when i lived here some really horrible shit was going on over here but you got to know them the people that were doing the horrible shit so Sean Lennon came to my house and it was it was kind of exciting I don't it's as as Duncan Jones David Bowie's son told me this is a very small club of these children of particular mythic musical presences that are somewhat eternal i

mean i mean i guess it's a matter of taste you know i it is if you're a certain age or a certain person you're meeting somebody related you know or the offspring of a beetle or david bowie you know or of bob dylan you know there there's a few people that, you know, where you're kind of like, wow, that's wild. That's your dad? Whoa. But Sean Lennon put out a record. He's put out many records. He's a talented musician.

And his most recent album, South of Reality by the Claypool Lennon Delirium, is available now wherever you get music. And he's on tour this summer all across the country. You can go to the ClaypoolLennonDelirium.com for tour dates and cities. Les Claypool, of course, from Primus and many other Les Claypool-oriented projects. Les Claypool is one of those guys where it's sort of like he just keeps making stuff. And it's usually kind of amazing and it making stuff and it's usually kind of amazing and it's weird and it's it's own

universe I know I know I should interview Les Claypool but I really need to sort of swim through you know jump into the rabbit hole of Claypoolness and figure that out before I do that but he is doing this it's a fun record and it actually is fun and funny and a little dark and

instrumentally satisfying you can kind of feel a lot of different influences in there but it's a it's it's a wild record this record and i enjoyed the record and i listened to a lot of julie julian oh boy that's the other one that's sean's i didn't talk to julian i talked to sean about julian but i get my kids of John Lennon mixed up in very rare circumstances. But I just did it just that. How often does that happen? I didn't mean Julian. I meant Sean Lennon. How often do you get to say that? But I talked to Sean. I listened to a lot of his music. I listened to a lot of Yoko's music because, as you know, I just watched that documentary called Above Us Only Sky about the process of making Imagine and that part of the life there.

But I was sort of like pleasantly surprised because, you know, wow, because Sean worked with Yoko and, you know, obviously it's his mother. But it was a good conversation. And I never know how delicate it is. Like, do we talk about your dad right out of the gate? You know, I don't want to be disrespectful to your talent or any of that. So how do you manage that? You know, I don't know the guy, but we actually had a really, a really sweet conversation. We had things in common in terms of our brains. And there's some really interesting moments in this. So this is me and Sean Lennon back at the garage. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about

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streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's only recently that I've even started calling myself a guitar player. Yeah. Because I just kind of, I don't know, it just seemed, it wasn't my identity. Because I never sat and did too many scales, and I was never trying to shred or anything. I was always just trying to make music, you know, write songs.

So yeah, I never got a Les Paul and it did seem kind of like the Holy Grail. But you're playing serious guitar. I mean, you're playing leads and you're doing the thing. Yeah, I've been playing more leads in this band. And I think mainly because Les Claypool is sort of known as an instrumentalist and a sort of athletic player. Yeah. And I think it's more expected.

But at the same time, it's also that he sort of encouraged me to solo more, which has been nice because I had never really considered myself a guitar player per se. I was more of a songwriter in my mind. And he was the one who was like, no man, you got some traps, why don't you play? And I'm like, really? You play with everybody. Why do we judge ourselves like that?

Because if you really think about, because I'm not even a professional musician, but I judge myself, why do we think, what do we think being a guitar player is? You like virtuosity? but if you listen to most of the leads you probably like they're just like they're not yeah they're not like virtuosity sure and i mean it's it's almost it's might be a kind of arrogance or something because you know what do you expect yourself to be like you know right what do you want to be ingway momstein yeah exactly

who wants that i can't even listen to that it's's like listening to math. Yeah. So I felt really good about him encouraging me to take more solos. And then, it's funny, I mean, not to bring this up in an ego kind of way, but I wound up on the cover of Guitar Player with him and I was just like, whoa, what's going on? I mean, I just, it definitely was surprising. You were in Claypool? Yeah, it totally surprised me, because I just never expected that to happen. I mean, when I, you know, when I grew up, the people that were on that, it was exciting. It was like, wow, but I also still don't fully accept that I can play guitar that well. And, you know, I think it's actually, you know, the self-critical part of your brain, it's like, always, you know, always critiquing every little thing you can do or not do.

And I think to a large degree, that part of my brain is correct. I mean, I, you know, I am a sort of poser with a guitar. I mean, I'll try, but, you know, I never put in the hours to actually get the dexterity that someone like Les has on the bass. I think people imagine him, as I did, to literally be living in some wizard castle in the woods and taking mushrooms every day. But he's actually really surreal and oddball in his art,

but in private he's a responsible dad. He's running his wine business. He's fishing. Yeah, he's fishing all the time and fixing his cars and he's a real like reliable dude but it seems like i just guess musically he seems to be a like he likes to get out there you know well i think he's one of those people that is just sincerely unique in his approach to his instrument and to songwriting. And that's really rare. You know, I think a lot of people try to find originality and maybe you can get there through

just the kind of methodology of trial and error. But with him, I think he just has an innate perspective on music that it just comes nationally to him. And he's one of the only players, which is especially difficult on bass, whereas if you hear about 30 seconds of him playing on anything and you kind of know, oh, that's Les Claypool, if you know his playing. Exactly, especially bass. Which is really hard to do on bass because, well, it's sort of a rhythm section instrument, so it takes a back seat often. And he treats the bass the way, you know, lead guitarists treat the lead guitar.

For sure. And, you know, there have been people who took bass solos before him, but he has an oddball approach. It's fun, too. He's a fun bass player. No, he's honestly one of the best players I've ever played with, It's fun too. He's a fun bass player. play like some of the the most notorious players just in relation to guitar player magazine it's not because they're virtuosos it's just because they you can you can feel them through how they play like you can identify them like you just said about less but that doesn't like like keith richards is no genius but he's keith richards yeah right well i mean you know it's it gets

it's semantical at that point because i think I would consider him a genius if we're talking about rock and roll guitar players. Right, but it's not complicated. Yeah. It's like he has figured out a way to be at one with that thing and express himself uniquely through it. And it's simple. Well, yeah. I mean, I agree with you. And that's why I think it's interesting to me that taste seems to be a more important factor in making good music, at least, than skill. Because, as you said, there's all these people who have chops out the window and you don't want to listen to their music.

Whereas people like Lou Reed, who wasn't an accomplished guitar player. Somehow he connects with music. So I think it's more about your feel and your taste than anything. And also the working of the people you're playing with. And that's the beautiful thing about being a musician is that, like, you know, you got a few other people with you. And the combination of them, even when you're not feeling great, you know, or maybe you think you're not playing up to where you need to be everybody works together right yeah i mean i mean in the best case scenario but they're all there are people who are just singular and want to do it alone you know i mean not completely alone but there are some stevie wonder records or prince records where they basically played you know yeah, the vast majority of the instruments,

including drums and everything. It's crazy. Yeah, and those people managed to get this kind of jam going with themselves. It's like they're a multiplicity of musicians. Right. But for the most part, I think music is collaborative, and I think that's what makes it so hard

because these bands, when they find their chemistry and their success I think there's also like an inherent resentment that a lot of people have towards each other because they rely on something that they can't quite quantify but right and they can't do it on their own and they go off to do their solo career right and and it doesn't work right as well and I think that's that's therein lies the complexity of, you know, dance. And then there's the expectation, right?

There's the expectation of them to deliver on their sound or whatever they put out before by the label, by the audience. Yeah, and that's an interesting thing. You know, for example, Mick Jagger's solo career, like it's famous that he tried to move on. I think it was in the 80s. And it was hard, And it's hard to, because on paper it would make sense.

As you said, there's nothing Keith is playing that is impossible to learn for the average guitar player. But it's hard to play it like him. But you can learn it. Yeah. But you'd imagine that at Mick's level

he could get musicians that would, you know, fit the bill enough to make it compelling. But it didn't work out. And that's, it's really interesting, actually. But the other side of that is when Keith did his solo, you're like, oh, these would be great Stone songs. Inversely, exactly, in the same way.

But even like, I just read this thing about McCartney on tour, which was an amazing observation. It was kind of haunting that he's doing these stadium shows doing the Beagle songs and everyone's like, yay. And he said that he actually accused the audience of being like a black hole. But it seemed kind of really,

like when I read it, I'm like, that's heavy. But what happened was, is that he's playing arenas and when he's doing Beatles songs, all the phones are up. And then he does one off a new album, all the phones stop. So you then he does one off a new album, all the phones stop. Yeah.

So you just see this, you know, a thousand points of light. And then he does whatever the hell the song is. Right. And they all go out. The blackness. Yeah. Isn't that a trip? It is so funny how the cell phone has supplanted the lighter as well.

And also the experience of being there. I mean, people are experiencing it in real time through their phone. It's once removed. It's crazy. time through their phone. It's once removed. It's crazy. It's very meta. It's really odd. So before we talk about specifically, because there was a couple songs on the new album and one on the last one you did,

that are dark, and one is, I think, potent and kind of haunting and sad, the Oxycontin Girl song on that last one. Yeah. But the one on this one about Parsons, you know, the Crowleyite rocket scientist who used to hang out with Hubbard and his wife

and that whole business. As a subject matter, I want to discuss how that comes up. Sure. Because so few people know that story. I think they might have tried to make a movie about it. What was Parsons' first name? Was it John or Robert?

Jack Parsons. Jack Parsons. Yeah. Someone gave me a book called Sex and Rockets. Yeah. Which was just, it's a biography of Jack Parsons,

which I realize now is controversial in some bits. I don't think it's considered the official historical document. I think there's some subjective stuff in it. I mean, that's probably true, though, of all biographies, which is another subject. Of course. But it's fascinating.

And as you said, he was a JPL rocket scientist. In fact, he founded JPL. Some people say that JPL doesn't stand for Jet Propulsion Labs, but Jack Parson Labs, because he was sort of... Right, and he's conjuring demons with L. Ron Hubbard by doing Crowley rituals. Meanwhile, he was also... And sex magic, right? Exactly. So he's in OTO, which is the Aleister Crowley religion. And he becomes a Magister Templi, which apparently is the head of that, I guess, branch.

Yeah. which apparently is the head of that, I guess, branch. And I think also Elrond had wanted to be in OTO and wasn't allowed in or something, so there was some kind of tension there, whereas Elrond wound up maybe sleeping with Jack's wife or something odd like that. Or it was a threesome, or it was sex magic. Yeah, dressed as goats or something. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, so I just, I mean, I love that story. The thing about the delirium is that it's kind of a whimsical project more so than anything I've ever done before. So it's sort of given me permission to really have fun with the lyrics and even the music as well, but it's more playful. So I'm always looking for fun stories to encapsulate. And, you know, I really like looking for real life stories to write these kind of surreal carnival-esque songs because, you know, it's a cliche, but life is definitely stranger than fiction.

So, you know, this is a true story. It just seemed like the perfect fodder for... For you and Wes? For a delirium song. Yeah, and there's a lot of examples like that. Like, there's a song called Amethyst Realm on the record that I wrote about this girl I'd read about in England who claims to have cheated on her fiancé with a ghost.

Yeah. And I think the fiancé walked in on them somehow, and she breaks up with him and renounces living men because she says phantom sex is so much better. Sure. So I thought that was just amazing. So I turned that into a song. Well, it's one particular point of view on masturbation.

If you're not using porn, aren't we all having phantom sex when we do that? Yeah. I mean, look, if that's all, but I think her claim is- Ghost coming. It's interesting. having phantom sex when we do that. Yeah. I mean, look, if that's all, but, but I think, you know, I think her claim is ghost.

It's interesting. And her name was actually Amethyst Realm, which was just like, that sounds like a song title. It's trippy. But a lot of the subject matter is just, uh, kind of just me looking at how weird the world can be.

There's another song called Boriska, which is about a real kid in russia yeah who through his mom sort of declared that he was uh from mars yeah and uh then his mother and some people around him claimed that he had magical powers or psychic powers and yeah that he could read at three months old or something right and my whole take on it was just after watching a couple of videos because his mother's a doctor she seemed like she was in charge and so i don't know Right. Sure, it's a con. Yeah, it's a con. So that song is about that. But there's that. America is such a fertile landscape for that kind of looking at things in a satirical way or looking at things that aren't satirical and realizing, like, what the fuck?

The Easily Charmed by Fools is like, that's a fundamentally American song. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Easily Charmed is more of a less song, and so is the other one you mentioned, which was, I forget the first one you asked. Oh, Oxycontin Girl. I think for Les, that was just, you know, again, yeah, it's pretty real life stuff. I mean, obviously, we have a major Oxycontin epidemic in this country, and I think having kids made him especially worried about that, you know, kids of college age. The turn in that song where, you know, the boyfriend turns her out, you know,

and given the world we live in, to have to listen to those lyrics and go like, yup. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? And, you know, he's lucky, both of his kids are totally straight edged and really smart and cool, but I think there was a moment where he just, you know, he always talks to me about

how having kids has influenced his universe. He describes it as your universe goes from you being the sun and things orbit you to suddenly there's a sun that's your kid and you're one of the planets orbiting it. That's the center. And you have to make sure he's nourished. Yeah, exactly. You're the nourishing planet. Yeah, so I think some of the songs or some of the narrative perspective

come from him just having kids and worrying about that. And I like that sort of both records kind of move through, you know, just straight up kind of like kind of orchestrated psychedelic trips, but also there's kind of like some Floyd-y stuff in there, and then there's some like Zappa-y kind of thing. Like it kind of like some floydy stuff in there and then there's some like zappy kind of thing like it kind of moves through like him and you but like you can hear the influences in there you know yeah well i just feel lucky that i've managed to find myself in a

project where we can just be that playful yeah Yeah. You know, and we've been given permission because under the guise of prog or psych, we're allowed to just have fun. You get the permission anyways. I mean, like, you can do whatever the fuck you want, really. Sure, sure. You're not in a high-pressure situation. I guess that's always true. You want to sell a few records,

but it's not like you're competing for, you know, billboard charts, are you? Sure, but I guess, no, it's not so much that. It's just there's something about there's something about the the character of this project whereas it doesn't it doesn't feel odd to have a five minute intro of noise and and and random you know jumbling spoken word or something and no one blinks twice whereas I think in other projects if I did that I think people would be like what is this you know there's just know, it's an expectation kind of thing.

Well, that's a question that like sort of going back now that like I remember you because I used to do comedy back in the day at the Boston Comedy Club, which used to be above the Bagot Inn. Like there was a period there where you were playing in there. Oh, yeah. That was years ago, probably. I think it was before you even recorded i think it was like the some of the first outings with whatever combo you had put together at the time yeah and like i remember it was sort of a thing like you know like sean lennon's downstairs like what does he do yeah yeah well it was weird for me at first. Like, I think I was incredibly naive and I had no idea how people or the world might,

you know, might feel about me. I just, because I was in a group of musicians in New York. We were all friends. There was the Beastie Boys and there was this band I joined called Chibamato. Were you in your teens? I joined Chibamato, I think, before I turned 20. I don't remember the exact date.

And that was before your first record? My first record was 2021, yeah. So it was right around that time. But it was weird because I just, I sort of took it for granted. You know, we all played in each other's bands. We hung out. We played shows. And then so I went to do a solo record thinking, oh, it's just going to be like that.

And it just wasn't. It was... Because of the legacy? Yeah. And it's funny that I didn't anticipate that. I mean, I should have. You really didn't? Well, I mean, I knew that it wasn't going to be exactly the same, but the degree to which it kind of made me feel, I guess, invisible in a way. Because what I noticed is that a lot of people who don't know me, because I'd only grown up with immediate friends and family and teachers and school, I wasn't exposed to the public per se. So I didn't realize the degree to which people would find it impossible to just sort of look at me and form an opinion based on me and not project either how I'm not fulfilling or am fulfilling some idea they have

about my dad or my parents. It took me years to even understand that. Were you insulated on purpose? Was that your mom's intent? Well, no, I don't mean I was insulated. I just simply mean I'd never been public. Most people are insulated in that way. You weren't doing something

that was demanding public attention. Yeah, I just had never had press or media stuff. I mean, a little bit, but it was shocking in a way, and it's taken me a lifetime to kind of completely internalize it and understand what it's all about. And now I don't really blame people because I understand it's like, if you have this person that seems significant in your mind, even though you never knew them,

but because of the music, like my dad, it's unreasonable to expect them to see me and not be clouded by the triggers of their ideas of this person. It's so bigger than I think anyone, I mean, maybe not you, but can imagine because I go through my life. I but can imagine because like, I mean, you know, I go through my life. I don't think about the Beatles every day, you know, but, but I watched the recent documentary that your, your mom must've signed off on because she's a big part of it. And it really reframes her

in the history of the Beatles that above us only sky. Right. And I just watched it, you know, in Paul, I was just on Netflix and I'll watch that. and I was like, I found myself going like, oh my God, there's so much footage of John just talking. And I became crazy. And I had this moment where I'm like, I did not realize how important that guy was in my brain. And I imagine for most people that grew up with that, especially that generation,

I mean, it's like bigger than life. So you've got to deal with that. When you decided to do music, was it sort of a family business thing or you didn't really anticipate that you would be up against it? Well, look, there's two things I would want to say to that is what's interesting, I find, is that as big as the significance of the Beatles or my dad might be to the biggest fan, I think what people underestimate is like that still doesn't compare to how important a father is to a child, right? So however anyone frames it to me, and often, you know, it's almost weekly, someone will say, you have no idea how important your dad was to me.

And, you know, I'm not cynical. I understand it. I'm like, thanks. But there's also this part of me that feels like, well, you actually have no idea. Well, maybe you could, like, you would have an idea if you just imagine how important your parents were to you. Right. And that's a big deal, you know.

So I feel like my relationship to my dad dad sometimes i feel like it's hijacked or something in that in that if it's people don't even seem to consider it well that's very interesting because like you know when you know when tragedy came you know you were so young but you know you're dealing with the absence of of a father and they're they're dealing with the absence of a almost a mythological being right and not to be to be critical, but for the most part, as real as their feelings are, it's a dream. As opposed to what I'm talking about as a physical person who taught me how to cut my food at dinner. you know, my food at dinner, you know, which actually leads to the other question you had, which is, you know, when I started music, did I, was I doing it for, you know, because it was a family thing? Honestly, I kind of feel like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, I've been talking

about this with guitar, like I don't consider myself a guitar player or whatever, but compared to all my professional musician friends, my introduction to music wasn't natural in the way that it was for most of them, meaning a lot of them were the best musician in their school or they just had a prodigal talent or they got a scholarship because they were just so good at piano. Those are the people you know? Not just people who are like, I want to get chicks and play guitar. Well, no, I think all of us are motivated through wanting to get chicks.

I mean, at least boys or some boys. But what I mean is I was never like this prodigy where teachers were like, my God, you've got an ear. We've got to send you to Juilliard. So I never had that sort of natural path into music. For me, it really was what you mentioned this the absence of my father was like there was this huge void in my life i associated him with music yeah and so i just played music because it was sort of it was the only way to kind of try to fill that void

because as i played music as i learned the beat Beatles songs and learned to play guitar, it just made me feel like I was connecting to him or, I mean, not literally spending time with him, but as close as I could, you know, render to that kind of connection with him because his music was an extension of him. So me playing music was really, it came from childhood trauma, basically. It wasn't because like, oh, I'm, you know, I've got this talent. There was always a better musician in my school. I mean, there's always people with perfect pitch or whatever who go to Juilliard

and become legit musicians. You know, I always had a certain amount of talent, but it was never a prodigal, I wouldn't say. So yeah, for me, you know, that's why it's kind of odd when I'm looking back at my life. It's interesting because I came to music more as a kind of instinct to try to heal childhood trauma as opposed to because I was good at it or something.

How old were you when you died? I was five. And do you have intact memories of him alive? Well, that's the other interesting thing. I don't know if there's any legit neuroscience around PTSD and memory. Yeah. But for me, the years leading up to my dad's death yeah i have more memories than i think i should really yeah quite a bit and i've and i've checked them as well because i you know like the the name of

this doll that i had or yeah this person that worked for my parents in japan when i was only three or four like i remember things yeah um and i know memory is unreliable and every time you remember you're not remembering the moment you're remembering the memory and then you change it so but i i i think something about the trauma of that really kind of uh made those memories indelible and then you know my my teen years my memories memories, like, not so good. So there's something about the trauma that really woke me up. And yeah, I'll never forget it. I mean, it's not fun to talk about, but I have a lot of memories of, you know, I mean, you might know, but there was, there were crowds of people in Central Park, which was right outside of our apartment.

And, you know, it was definitely a rude awakening. Suddenly, I didn't really know even what the Beatles were, and then suddenly there were like 1,000 people outside singing these songs 24 hours for months. And for years, actually, they would come back on my dad's birthday, and it was very surreal. And how did your, like, you know, in terms of, because your mother is very musical as well, despite what people might think. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that.

Yeah. Because I agree, too. She, I mean, the reality is she taught me more music than my dad did simply because she was around. Sure. So she was making records. I mean that's how I learned to mix a record, what a compressor was, what this kind of mic did, what EQ was. I learned that all from my mom. Being in the studio?

Yeah. Well, yeah. And I just like I was curious to know, you know, as you got older and got more interested in music and started to have this experience with your father's work and then, you know, with your mother actively working that, you know, how did your mother compensate for, you know, John being gone in your memory? Like, you know, either emotionally or as having that role of being a single parent? Well, you know, I wouldn't want to necessarily speak for her because I was very young. But I'm not sure exactly how to answer that question because I've never quite thought about it that way. question because I've never quite thought about it that way. But I would say that my mom's parenting was unconventional in that she didn't want to repeat what I think she would consider the mistakes of her parents or her parents' generation. And I think my father had felt

that way too for the time that he was raising me. And I guess most parents feel that way. You're trying to be an improvement on what you had. Yeah, of course. And I guess most parents feel that way. You're trying to be an improvement on what you had. Yeah, of course. And I do think there are incremental improvements. So I think what distinguished my mom's parenting was that she didn't want to control me in the way they tried to control her. Yeah. And so she was very respectful of me from an early age and kind of treated me as a sovereign individual. So in a way, I guess that's what a lot of maybe hippie generation parents did. They sort of went for a kind of mutual respect friendship kind of thing, which was definitely radical, I guess, in comparison to the generation before who kind of treated kids as slaves. But also looking out for your best interest and trying to imbue you with a sense of moral decency.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't raised with any particular religion, but my mother definitely has a very she has a very specific moral compass yeah and yeah I think part of that morality was to respect individuals and their their autonomy sure and kids as well I mean she would always say that to me that she disliked that kids were condescended to when she was growing up and sort of their their desires and wants were sort of overlooked and it seems that like a lot of

the source of a lot of her creativity is is childlike and informed by you know trauma and and you know grown-up fears. Yeah, well, she came from a very conservative family in Japan. And it's interesting how life works, but I think a lot of the restricted life she had in terms of social mores and behaviors that were expected of her, I think kind of made her the radical artist that she was. You know, famously, my grandfather told her that when she was starting to play classical piano, that women can't be pianists or successful pianists.

that women can't be pianists or successful pianists. And, you know, she always talks about that story as if it was the thing that gave her the impetus and the energy to become who she is. Yeah. Because she was like, fuck you. Yeah, exactly. That's a lot of people's impetus. Yeah, exactly.

Fuck you, dad. Yeah, exactly. I mean, well, it's interesting because, I mean, I just find the relationship between trouble or trauma or difficulty in life and sort of successful outcomes in terms of the characters of the people who go through it. It's sort of a paradox, isn't it? I mean, life is very odd in that way um what i mean is like you can't you know obviously some of the the most interesting people tend to have had a lot of difficulty yeah at some point sure it's sort of the way that you learn about the most profound things in life and you can't really get there unless you kind of have some, I guess,

suffering or something. Sure. Which I just find that to be so interesting. It seems like a paradox. But, you know, often when people get even diagnosed with some illness or something, they always say, like, you know, now I'm awake. Like, now I understand. I understand myself.

Right. I appreciate it. Takes that. Yeah, and there's something harsh about that reality. say like you know now i'm awake like now i understand i understand myself or right i appreciate takes that yeah and there's something well you get harsh about that reality well a lot of people move towards a as secure life as they can have that you know something that that like might seem to guarantee them a certain sense of safety whether it's institutional or job or all that other stuff and then they kind of like just lock into a pattern. Whereas creative people, if they really pursue that, they're always going to be at emotional and physical risk

because of the lifestyle they live or the risks they take emotionally. Or if they're really talented, usually that comes with a certain amount of doubt and addiction problems or whatever is going to happen. So they're out there battling whatever is going to happen. So, you know, they're out there and, you know, battling this stuff, you know, day to day. And if they survive it, they come upon a real wisdom, I would think. Yeah. And it's interesting to me. I mean, this is just, you know, philosophically interesting, but people can tell you these lessons when you're a kid and you can even take it seriously and try to internalize

the wisdom right but it's in it isn't until you go through those things that you truly understand it and you know right and then you have your own story about it that you can tell somebody else who'll be like yeah right yeah and it's and it's i just wish it wasn't that way i wish i wish you could just be told and then you get it but somehow our biology is is is stubborn yeah fuck you dad but then but even in a in a in a super organism way in terms of the human race it's like for example with something like global warming yeah it seems like no matter how much we talk about it I fear that it's going to take some kind of real world consequence, like an experience that will then obviously, you know, then we'll take it seriously. I think that I feel that way, too.

And it makes me sad as well. I do. I'm doing a bit about it now. Just sort of, you know, what is it going to take? And at that moment will we be able to adapt where whereas like you would think right now it's like well it's pretty clear you know what what has to happen it's it's it's you know just dumped like six feet of hail in mexico and we're just sort of like that's an anomaly yeah i don't know but people are also

in denial because you know i think either out of shame or out of a sense of hopelessness or they just don't want to believe it's true. Well, denial must be evolutionarily useful. Of course. heard something about how it's not enough from an evolutionary standpoint to be a good liar because people are humans are just so naturally sensitive i mean that's why we love good acting because we're all quite nuanced in our perceptions of facial muscles and vocal tone so it's not enough to be good at lying it you have to also kind of believe it yourself got sell it you have the have you have to have the ability to lie to yourself yeah because only then can you truly not get caught right by the enemy or whatever well that's why we have this president yeah for example but i

find that to be truly interesting because the idea is that believing your own bullshit is an evolutionary you know a skill that was selected for and all of us yeah so I mean it's not you know obviously we all know people who are who are too far gone in that direction and we're just shocked I mean you know we've encountered like really you know do you really believe what you're saying yeah but I think the truth is that we all have that ability. Of course. And if we hadn't had it, we would have died and our genes wouldn't have passed on. So we are the survivors of a lying species, which I find to be interesting. Wow.

It is really interesting. Can you write a song about that? It's a little complicated, but it's hard to whistle along to. We are the, what is it? We are the survivors of a lying species. We are the survivors of a lying species. There's the first wine. It's a hit.

Definitely going to be a hit. If I can get my mom to just do some whaling over it, I think we'll have something. She'd do it. Oh, she's always up for it. All right, so going back, though, I think it's interesting that in order to build a relationship with your father's absence that you integrated his work into yourself. It is interesting, and I don't know if it's kind of pop psychology on my part, too, because it's not like a professional told me this. This is my own interpretation of me, and that's all you know i could just be making it up i don't know but it felt that way um the reason i say that is because i remember playing piano before i could play or i had a lesson or anything and just playing it knowing that that was his piano and kind of

missing him so i mean god it sounds like a soft story but it's true so i mean so that was his piano and kind of missing him. So, I mean, God, it sounds like a sob story, but it's true. So, I mean, so that was my... It's a sad story. Yeah, it was sad. But, you know, I remember the first time I figured out some of his songs. Yeah. It felt really good. What'd you start with?

I think the first one I learned was Hide Your Love Away. That, Norwegian Wood, and Julia was the hardest one. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, in fact, still today, I can't play this one F minor 9 chord. It hurts. Yeah. Even though I play guitar every day, it just never stops hurting, that first fret. But yeah, it felt really good in a way that it never felt learning other people's songs.

I mean, I loved hendrix and you know right cream but that was always just like an accomplishment on the instrument whereas learning one of my dad's songs felt kind of like a sacred thing it felt like an intimate yeah spiritual kind of thing what it also has genetic resonance nice i think you should coin that term too. That's another hit. Another hit song. That's the name of my next CD. Genetic resonance. So like, because it seemed to me like listening to all this stuff, that like on the first record, you were really making a sort of, you know, fairly sophisticated pop record, right? You know, employing some of those chords and that style of writing.

Is that true? Honestly, I'd like to give you an intelligent response to that, but I don't know. My first record was me literally making up a song a day and then mixing it that night and moving on. I think I did the whole album

in two or three weeks. Yeah. And I think it was my mom's influence. She really believes in spontaneity. Yeah. So she really believes in channeling lyrics. Like they just come to her. Right, right.

And I really looked up to her so i made a record in that fashion thinking thinking that people would think it was cool that i was doing something that was like a diary like a demo like something really intimate but not overworked and just sort of a stream of consciousness thing yeah but then i realized when we were releasing it that there was kind of no way to make that clear. Even if I said that, it was just like, no, this is your debut. This is John Lennon's son deciding to make a statement about who he is as a musician. this statement was supposed to be like, oh, I'm going to kind of, I'm going to be really loose and not polished about this

in order to counter expectations of me getting a big record deal or something like my brother had done. And, you know, I respected him for that, but I felt like, and I had been offered those kinds of lucrative deals where like, we'll get you this guy to write your song and this producer.

And it just didn't feel like me. and because i was hanging out with all these indie cats like the beasties and then sonic youth to me it just seemed cooler to do something understated and new york too yeah and so it was really off the cuff and kind of random i mean i look at the lyrics sometimes i'm like man what was i thinking it literally was just like the cat in the mat okay done yeah you know because i i sort of i think i was also scared to work on the lyrics too much because i was scared to try to be smart so i was just like you know forget it yeah just just write stuff that rhymes right so that record is a little hard for me to listen to in a way to be honest it's like some of it i really like, but it's kind of like listening back to like some Walkman recording that you made when you're just jamming with your friends and you're all just like, you know, hanging out and you're like, hey, there was a cool moment there. really not really working too hard on completing a a real album whatever that meant was my way of sort of easing my way into music and sort of in through a back door or sideways as opposed to

taking it on yeah you know head first and and and because of the reception of that record or that the sort of rude awakening the expectations? The ruthless reception. I mean, I'm sure you've seen Spinal Tap. Yeah. You know, when they're just like reading the bad reviews and Rob Reiner's like, you know, you've had some terrible reviews

throughout your career and this one review comes to mind. It's simply a two-word review. It's for the album Shark Sandwich. Shit sandwich. They're like, you can't print that. Is that even true? Like, no.

But yeah, I had a Shit Sandwich reveal. I'll never forget it. It was NME. Basically just said, are the Beastie Boys releasing Sorry No Hopers as a joke on the world? And that was it. That was the whole review.

I was like, wow, that's my Shit Sandwich review. But to be honest, there was no negative review for that album that I didn't agree with on some level deep down because it's true. It wasn't meant to be something that kicked ass. It was more like little bits of a diary of a very naive kid. But did those reviews, like you said, was that more the moment of what you would have to go through to be a public person doing something?

Well, I think that would have been true if I had made a different kind of record. So it was kind of compounded, meaning like, not only was there the difficulty of, you know, being a son of, but then there's also the difficulty of the kind of odd record I made. Right. Each of those things would have been difficult independently, but together it was just kind of a clusterfuck. Did it spin you out? It definitely made me not want to make a solo record for a long time, and it confused me.

Well, you didn't, right? I didn't. In fact, to this day, I still sort of have cold feet about doing solo work. It's mainly because, well, I don't know. I mean, I was going to ask you, actually. Right. Because this is how I feel.

Do you feel like when you get a really negative statement, review, or just even like a YouTube comment, do you feel like it only hurts if you kind of agree on some level? That's how I feel. Yeah. No, I think that's true. Like if you don't agree at all, why would it hurt you, right? I mean, you're just like, oh, you're crazy then. But the problem is, depending on your insecurity, almost all the negative ones are going to be like, no, I never really thought about that, but that's probably true. That's true. You can take it too far. Sure, you just use it as a bat.

You know what I mean? Like you integrate, and then when you see a positive one, there's part of you that's sort of like, nah, that's, I don't do the comment thing anymore or look at it, and I've learned how to deal,

I'm very sensitive, so it's all going to hurt. Right. But like I've learned to be like, just wait till it goes away and move on with your life. Right. But you know, they're trying to hurt you. Sure. I mean, if somebody does a sophisticated, you know, real piece of criticism, you know, with, with interesting points, you know, you can integrate some of that, I think. And those are the ones where I'm like, well, that's sort of true. Like, you know, usually

a real review or a real piece of criticism will, will say some, you know, almost good things, you know, then, you know, one really good thing and then like two paragraphs of like what was wrong. Yeah. And, you know, if it's well thought out, you know, sometimes that's encouraging in some weird way. Sure. You know, it kind of makes you more like, well, I never thought of that that way, and now I'm going to integrate that. Well, if it really resonates and it's an accurate criticism, that's like a gift in a way. Right.

But I guess from my perspective, I wish in a way that a lot of the people who say... Oh, is that me? Sorry, I'm so sorry. It's okay, buddy. You good? Yeah, it's Paul's son. Oh.

He's a sweet guy. But, oh yeah i just i often wish that the people who were spewing the venom about me i just i don't wish they would stop i just wish they knew that i totally agree with them like then there's nothing they said that is like a new idea to me you know it's like it's not, it's like, that's the only difference. Well, that's the only difference in your head. Yeah. Like, you know, yeah. I envy people that aren't that hard on themselves, but I just can't, it's not something I can

manufacture. It's not one of those genetically alterable things that I can just believe. It's also a cultural thing maybe because I grew up in New York on the Upper West Side and there was, I think it was. You guys still in that house? Well, my mother is, yeah. Oh, really? But I think there was a sort of an unspoken idea that the more self-critical you could be was proportional to like what a good person you were. Like it was sort of rewarded being

self-critical. Whereas if you weren't self-critical you were teased and made fun of you know unless you were the teaser right which is that you're a bully right so i feel like i was sort of raised with that value you know it's like it's like the woody allen perspective on life and that was considered being a thoughtful person right you know self-loathing. Right. Was thoughtfulness in a way. Whereas I don't think that's true of all cities. Right.

But there's also a false humility to it, and there's also a sort of narcissism to it. Well, I'm glad you said that because I was going to say it because, well, that's what I meant about, you know, feeling bad that you're not Ingrid Melmsteen. It's a kind of narcissism. It's like, who do you think you are? you're not even close like you know inverted narcissism yeah exactly yeah so you're just it's an it's an excuse to spend all your thoughts on yourself

without you know thinking you're a narcissist because you're not grandiose right so when you do the first record and you have this thing like you know and you you're sort of put off of doing solo work now in that moment you know your mother's doing you know her work how does she handle that rejection you know with you well she's a world leading expert in rejection i would say you know i think she's got a doctorate in snarky media. That's why I feel bad after watching Above Us Only Sky, because you get this thing locked in your head. And there's some – did you watch it?

Yeah, but yes, I have. I mean, I've seen all that stuff. Sure, before. But the interviews with the guys who were there, the older guys, were just sort of like – it was all Yoko that shifted his perspective. You know, and I think it's important for, like, all those people that mythologize this whole thing. That's, like, important new information to reframe your mother's, you know, art and talent. You know, and it was very exciting for me to be able to see it that way because I hadn't thought about it in a long time.

But it's a it's a it's a rebirth in a way. Sure. I mean, I have a lot to say about that. Oh, yeah. Firstly, I think that the culture has come to a point where we where we are collectively reexamining the past. Yeah. re-examining the past yeah sometimes too much but in terms of more recent uh understanding and understandings of of what sexism and racism were and and whatever people call the patriarchy or whatever and i think the the simplest analysis of what happened to my mom is I think it was a different time in which a lot of kind of subtle latent racism and sexism was, you know, unnoticed. And I think she was a victim

of that. But on the other hand, I would say that recent history, especially, it is sort of an optics war between arguably subjective views of reality. Yeah. And the reason I say that is because I was, I grew up being able to read lots of different biographies and histories of not just the Beatles, but my parents.

Yeah. You know, each of them with a completely, you know, contradicting or disparate view of what they were or what they did. And so I've always been aware that, you know, if people who actually lived in a time of film, video, microphone recordings, photograph could be misinterpreted so drastically, then how could I expect any history of anyone in the past to be anything like a truth? So I do think that history generally is a kind of optics war. And the real truth will always have to be probably harder to understand because it's probably going to have conflicting elements.

And more mundane in a way. Maybe more mundane, but I'm not sure. But I guess what I'm trying to say is there's usually truth to all perspectives to some degree. But I think the most important thing you said about that was people who live this people who are, who, who, who live this dream, uh, in the dream about who your, your father was and, you know, as compared to your experience of him and your loss of him, you know, that, that there's no way they can engage the empathy in that moment necessary to even take that in. Right. So, so the real life element of living you know in that that zone and it's a rarefied zone i mean i've talked to like i've talked to duncan jones i've talked to jacob dylan i mean there's

a small crew of you i mean and duncan said that to me he said you know there's only a few of us yeah who have these fathers or parents that's true that like you could like you know even talking to him like you know you guys are you know eating as a family you know watching tv Yeah, that's true. even register which you know is something i totally understand and and and sympathize with because it's happened to me i mean i've had you know people that i put on a certain kind of pedestal and then it kind of gets ruined if you get to talk to him too much or something you know lou reed well i won't say any names but you know lou was great he was cool but you know sometimes your idea of what an actor is going to be like, and then you talk to him and you're like,

oh, God, now it's ruined for me, you know? Yeah, you don't. And so I understand that. You know, you want to hold on to that kind of precious feeling you have. Sure, sure. Yeah, because it's in the same area of religion and hope and faith, you know? It's mythology. I think i read you said that somewhere about religion that you know you choose to see it as mythology i i don't know where

well yeah no i do that's amazing you've heard i've said that before i mean i guess i've had different feelings about religion throughout my life i I mean, I grew up without any religion, so I was really extremely cynical about it, actually, when I was young. But I think I've gone from being a sort of militant atheist to admitting that I'm actually agnostic in the end. Because I don't think you can honestly say you're an atheist. You can say you err on the side of atheism. But truly, if you're honest, I think you have to say you're agnostic until... Right. You want to hedge your bets.

Yeah. Because you can't really say, even if it's unlikely. Yeah. So, you know, I consider religion mythology, but that doesn't mean I'm putting it down. No, no, I get it. But it's through the kind of Campbellian power of myth.

I don't know if you've read Joseph Campbell, but his idea of how there are these archetypes throughout all the religions and therein are very profound lessons and important stuff. And that's not to say it is or it isn't supernatural, but the lessons are there and they're important, whether they're supernatural in origin or not. It almost doesn't matter because it's about these universal human stories that that are helpful yeah so yeah that's

what i mean by that you know but i i have so many different minds about it because part of me also just looks at all of it is and when i say all of it i mean mean, especially, you know, established religion as a kind of acceptable insanity. Like, there are different things in all societies that we allow. There's different tolerances for what is basically a kind of craziness or delusion. So, I think of it as acceptable insanity because no matter how much progress we make with science and how austere and important and accomplished our culture is in terms of figuring out the standard model and, you know, quantum computing or whatever, we always still have a tolerance for this kind of accepted insanity, which is interesting to me because it's fascinating that we could have all of this rational thought and like, you know, math and the Principia Mathematica and all these incredible rational accomplishments. But still, that doesn't really chip away at all at this sort of belief in these unprovable, you know, deities and forces. Wasn't it in the same sort of rubric, if that's the way you use that word, as what we were talking about earlier, that you have to believe the lie? Exactly.

Like it's a survival mode. Exactly. So I think that's, I guess it's a bittersweet truth, That's, I guess it's a bittersweet truth is that we all have probably an inherited ability to kind of believe in fantasies to our own benefit. Because I think maybe without that skill, the reality of life might be harder to deal with. Well, yeah, the human, like most people, have an innate compulsion to believe in something bigger than themselves to find meaning in life. But getting back to, like, your mother's PhD in rejection, so was she able to put it into perspective for you? I wouldn't say that she completely figured it out. I think, you know, she remains human.

I was always amazed that after having gone through so much negative attention, let's call it, that she was still hurt when, you know, there would be some snarky comment. Yeah, she's still very sensitive, to be honest. She was one of those people, what we talked about before, where, you know, she was, you know, She was one of those people, what we talked about before, where, you know, she was, you know, a totally unique individual expressing herself in a way that was, you know, not diplomatic or pandering. So she was one of those freaks that, you know, was going to be made fun of. She's uncensored. Yeah. And, you know, even our Japanese family at one point disowned her, technically, I think, from the official family books or whatever.

And that was actually when she married this guy, Tony, who was her second husband, but he was, you know, American. It was essentially that was all it took, just marrying someone who wasn't Japanese. And so she was rebelling against that. They didn't do it with your dad, though? By then, well, what's interesting and I guess typical is that once they became kind of famous as John and Yoko, then the family kind of started, you know, this isn't the whole family, but certain members of the older generation. Because my cousins and stuff, I love all of them. But, um, yeah, there, I think at least what I've been told is that, you know, they started to be nicer again, which I think was hurtful as well.

And the same thing happened to my dad actually with my grandfather on his side. Um, I think it's famous that my, my grandfather came to one of his shows and wanted to like hang out or something, and my dad tried a little bit, but I think ultimately he felt kind of hurt that he wasn't around before and then kind of seemed excited about the Beatles thing. Yeah, so I think that connected my parents in that they both went through this kind of rejection from their family you know yeah and then i think that made them specifically pair you know uh uh complementary

to each other because they understood that experience together yeah and when you finally did another solo record yeah how'd that go? Friendly Fire was my second solo record. Yeah, it went better than the first one. I was more prepared. I worked harder. I wrote string arrangements, and I worked on those songs. And I'm definitely prouder of those songs, but there's something weird about me. I almost never play music from the past when I'm touring a new project.

And I don't really know any other musician who's like that. I mean, it's usually just sort of expected that you accumulate a catalog of songs and you kind of refer to them right throughout your life but I just have this weird I just have this weird part of me that almost can't deal with the past I'm just like I don't want to deal with it I don't want to listen to it you know if someone puts on those records I'm just like I just shut it off yeah I can't I don't either like I you know I've got six or seven you know four or eight hours of comedy under my belt over the past two decades, and I don't remember half the shit, man.

Yeah, and I don't know if I want it necessarily. I mean, not to be too mean about it. I'm grateful that there are people out there who like those records, and I'm really grateful for that. But just personally, I've never, and I could be shooting myself in the foot, but I've never nurtured that kind of catalog thing.

So I'm always kind of burning a bridge with myself and totally committing to whatever I'm doing at the moment. Well, that's the freedom, and you can see that in the work you've done. And also, in some ways, not to be a dick, but it's fortunate that you didn't make an album full of hits. Thank God. Thank the Lord. Can you imagine if I had those hits? know it's fortunate that you didn't make an album full of hits thank god thank the lord i mean can you imagine if i had those hits yeah well you'd be playing them yeah i'd be playing

them deal with the phones going i'd have my botox surgeon on the on the phone all the time who knows i need more botox you know um yeah you know i i i believe in the idea of not having any regrets, though I think that's impossible. Of course. But I think conceptually it's a good goal. And I don't know, recently, I don't know if you saw, I watched a podcast, I think it was Rogan, had this guy on named Naval.

Naval, I don't remember his last name. It's an Indian name and he was talking about how happiness is not proportional to intelligence like there's there's tons of high IQ you know high highly functioning successful people who I think it'd be antithetical who are miserable exactly but he thinks what he said so how smart are you really if you're not happy? And so he talked about this idea of how he practiced reframing everything that he could in a positive way, if he could. Not because he thought it was more true or less true, but because treating it like a muscle, like doing sit-ups. Like you just keep doing them. It's not fun, but you develop an ability.

Yeah. Right? So I've been trying to do that did it work it's working i mean it's only been a couple of months but i you know i have this tendency to kind of as i said it's i guess it's the woody allen school of thought where you know i can be kind of pessimistic about things or or critical as they're happening but i've been attempting to reframe things positively. And, you know, it's, what I'm thinking to myself is like, would it hurt to just try? Right. Does it hurt to just try to see if you can look at this more positively?

It also frees up some of your brain because a lot of times it's just habitual reaction. Exactly. And, you know, and it's something you, you know, the people who do that, which I do, it's sort of like home base for you. Exactly. But it's a learned identity, I think. I don't think it necessarily came. It becomes an obstacle because you're afraid to experience happiness or you're afraid to experience vulnerability or joy.

Because when you have that thing, if that's your first thing, it's protecting you, you know, whatever, you whatever wherever your hearts at yeah I agree and in fact now that you say it that way I also think that all of us can our comfort zone doesn't necessarily have to be comfortable I was not like you can get used to anything you wake up every morning just bang your head against the wall for six months you know one day you'll if you don't do it you like, man, I really feel like I got to bang my head against the wall. I did that on a special, my comfort zone is uncomfortable. Like, you know, it's, it's what you're, you know, it's a weird thing because it's a weird way to use the word comfortable, but, but it's true that, you know, whatever patterns you you've created to either, you know,

protect yourself or your sensitivity or, sensitivity, or from whatever pain you caused that callous, it's how you engage in the world emotionally. Exactly. And I think what a lot of us do is, without realizing it, is we're kind of, some part of our brain is trying to recreate whatever the most traumatic experiences we had were in our childhood so you're kind of looking for that because it's it was because it imprinted you so whether you know it or not you might be seeking negative feelings right yeah you it's family of origin stuff that you you tend to repeat with relationships right you know and and the only way to escape it is to

realize it and then make a concerted concerted effort to learn how to not do that which is as painful as sit-ups basically that they suck to do and it hurts to do it doesn't feel natural but i've been trying to do that so this this was a long answer to you know my uh my second record or whatever how do i feel about it you know, I felt more negative about it in the past, and I actually, you know, I see the positive in it. It was good. It was a good experience, and I've evolved as a musician since then.

Well, yeah, you guys, like, when I was looking at the work, like, you know, I do what I do, but you guys seem to always be doing something. And, like, you know i do what i do but you guys seem to always be doing something and like i you know the soundtrack thing that must be a whole other you know world of uh of expression in in a collaborative way to do film soundtracks you know that that must be like a whole other set of chops and a whole other to collaborate with visuals yeah like that you know I do love it I mean the thing that's great about doing film scores is that you're not serving the purpose of your own artistic sort of desires or plans necessarily if you didn't make the film right you have this framework that takes primacy over any of your feelings or intuitions you have to serve this sort of set uh structure narrative and so it's kind of uh freeing

in a way because you don't have the pressure of figuring out what that backbone is or fulfilling some kind of you know, indulgent artistic vision. Yeah. You have the, you know what needs to be done. Right, right. You know, the map is laid out for you. Right. So it actually kind of frees you up in a way.

And I really enjoy it. I've only done like three or four scores, but. And production is sort of similar too, right? That you're there to service someone else's vision in a way. Yes. And I have done some production work and uh it's funny because it was only when i started producing other artists that i realized why it's great to have a producer yeah which i do wish i had had for friendly fire for example um you know i don't i don't think of myself as an egomaniac or something, but there was something in me that wanted to do it myself,

produce my own stuff. The control thing. Yeah, it's definitely, it's not always a successful strategy, but when you produce other artists, what I realized was it almost doesn't matter if I have a musical skill as a producer. Yeah.

It's just the fact that I'm not that person who wrote the song, who's singing it and recording it. The fact that I'm not them gives me this perspective that they simply can't have because they're caught in the myopic vision of the macroscopic. I mean, the microscopic looking at everything in front of your nose. Whereas I can step back and be like, oh, no, it's not working or your voice sounded better 10 takes ago. It's really hard to understand that stuff when you're in it. Sure. So it's such a simple conclusion, but it's hilarious to me that I never truly understood it because, you know, I never wound up working with producers because I think I never really understood what they were going to do. It was kind of like, okay, well, you know,

I'm playing this, I wrote the songs, and there's the engineer. Like, what are you going to do? You're going to stand there and kind of talk? And I literally just didn't get it. So, yeah, producing has been really helpful to me. Well, you produced some of your mom's stuff? I did co-produce.

I mean, she's always a producer in the studio. She's very, you know, she really has a vision and she doesn't doubt her vision at all. It's interesting. You know, it surprises me that I'm related to her because she's so singular in her vision and she moves forward without any hesitation yeah i think you can see that you know just watch her do her improvised kind of vocalization stuff yeah that people yeah often make fun of right she's so committed though there's she's there's not one you know hair on her head that's wondering like oh should i do I do this? She's 100% committed to the music or being a vessel for her music.

And I find that to be, well, it's very compelling to watch and to listen to for me. It's, I think, part of what I like about Hendrix solos or something. It's just someone thriving and owning their own vision and realizing the music without any kind of second guessing. And I think it's something that I strive towards doing. Honestly, I think for people like me who are more, you know, prefrontally occupied, meditation has been really good for me oh yeah and both my parents did tm yeah and it so i that's the reason i started doing tm just because it was

kind of in the family tradition but it's really helped it's really helped me in terms of not being totally controlled by that rapid fire critic. Self-critic, yeah, yeah, yeah. And at least long enough that you can just play music and get it done, and then you can be critical afterwards. Sure. For me, I think it was hard to put that down. Oh, no, yeah, I can't.

Yeah, it's really hard, but I think you can learn to do it. No, I think so. For some people, it comes naturally. I mean, my, I can't. Yeah, it's really hard, but I think you can learn to do it. No, I think so. For some people, it comes naturally. I mean, my mom just had it. She's definitely self-critical in a healthy way when she's not working, but she never brings it to the performance moment. And you think that's sort of one of the more important things you've gleaned from her? Sure.

the more important things you've gleaned from her? Sure. Yeah, I mean, because she just has this uninhibited commitment to the music or to the art when she's doing it. She's unapologetic. And yeah, I admire it a lot. It fascinates me. And it's so alien, actually, to what my character is like that I think that's why I was such a big fan of hers

and I wound up producing those two records for her or with her and putting them out on my label because I knew that I needed to absorb some of that. Yeah. It's a kind of... You had to sort of shift the relationship to being in artistic collaboration with her as a grown-up as opposed to sort of a son

and somebody who sees her doing what she's doing. Well, in terms of my relationship with her as her son, I think I looked at it as just a cooler way to spend quality time with my mom as well. It's like, you know, we could go to lunch or have tea or, you know, go to a museum or we could rock out. You know, it felt a lot more connected. So that was cool, you know, because I'm always looking for things to do with her. And playing music just felt like the best thing we could do.

I listened to, I think, Take Me to the Land of Hell, which is, like, I enjoyed it. I listened to it yesterday, the whole album. And I'd never listened to it before. And I'm like, this is, like, and now, you know, after seeing that documentary and reframing it, I'm like, she's great. Yeah.

She's really doing what she does. She's interesting. And I think people underestimate her as a songwriter as well. I mean, I just, my label, Camira Music, just with this other label, Secretly Canadian, we've remastered all her vinyl solo records. Again, it was a nice way to figure out how to be a good son, was to remaster all her records and give them to her. I remember giving her a package of all the new vinyls that were you know we recreated the cover and the artwork and stuff and

i was like here you know merry christmas and she was just really touched so you know it's just like a nice way to do something with her that's not just boring and also her visual art's a trip too she's very talented at drawing and it's funny because she didn't do that much drawing until she was in her 70s. Yeah. And then she started doing these pointillist abstract drawings. Like she did about a thousand of them in a couple years. It just came out of nowhere. And it was really fascinating to witness.

I've never seen anything quite like it. She just went from not drawing at all to drawing constantly every day. We'd be on the plane, she's doing it. The news would be on, she'd be doing it. And I think those pieces, I don't know if you've seen them, I can show you some, are one of the most important things she did

in terms of changing people's understanding of her. Because her art was so conceptual always. And installations, yeah. Yeah, so I think the average person just doesn't even connect with what she did as art. Or see it. You gotta go walk through it usually and sit in it. Yeah, it takes a lot.

It demands some attention in a way. But her drawings just speak for themselves. They're very immediate. Yeah. And so, yeah, she's done really well. I mean, she's, in fact, she's very inspiring in terms of me seeing the kind of success one can have after 50. Yeah.

That most people don't talk about as even being possible. Right. But, you know, she's, her art career has really taken off in the last few decades. Yeah. taken off in the last few decades and she she won uh the lion's gate award i think it's called in the venice biennale a lifetime achievement and you know that's like a big deal that's like getting an oscar for an actor that's great um and but you know she wasn't getting that kind of respect sure for most of my life so to see that come to kind of, you know, it's like a hero's journey. It's like if you just stick with it and you believe in yourself, it's so cliche. And keep evolving as an artist.

It can come to you. People might come around and that has happened to her. That's great. And I listen also to the stuff you do with your partner. Oh, Charlotte. Yeah. You guys still together? Yeah, she's at the hotel. Yeah, I mean, and that stuff's like totally different too. It's kind of like,

I don't know, like I just noticed that, you know, your willingness, whether it's out of insecurity or compulsion or actually a need to express things differently, you know, you definitely do a lot of different things musically depending on who you're working with.

And that stuff with her is pretty, you know, it's sweet, it's not, you know, it's danceable, it's got a pop vibe to it, but it also has sort of a strange kind of, not campiness to it, but there's something. There's a carnival aspect to it. Right, yeah. I mean, we were very influenced by early psych with the ghosts. Right, there's that thing, almost a garage psych thing.

Yeah, like Sid Barrett and the Pretty Things and the Zombies and stuff. But again, I mean, people notice that kind of nod to the past with that band in a way that they also do with the Delirium. But with The Ghost, I don't think it's purely retro. It was kind of an amalgam of all sorts of stuff. Ghost of Sabertooth Tiger. Yeah. I just call it The Ghost.

Yeah. Yeah, Charlotte is one of the most remarkable songwriters and musicians i've ever worked with so that that band is totally her and me ongoing it's not i think a lot of people assumed because she is pretty and right and she was a model that she was just kind of you know uh a stand-in right or something but she's she completely produced those records she wrote all the songs with me and um it's one of my favorite things i've ever done and it's because i got to work with someone as inspiring as she is i mean she's she really helped me with for example lyrics like she's a very good lyricist and she also has

incredible grit she never gives up she's never lazy she has an amazing work ethic so she really gave me some muscles in terms of just pushing through and trying to write trying to make the lyrics better i think i'd always been not lazy about it but almost like terrified to try right so it wasn't a laziness it was actually kind of fear or something well it's good that you're with her on that level because if you're like me and it seems like we have these things in common that self-critical thing or these you know these these wired in ways of of sort of avoiding you know a type of vulnerability that's probably necessary yeah to to to do to write songs that,

because even now, I'm just trying to get through it now, and just to present your ideas to someone else, if they're really coming from your heart, you're sort of like, I don't wanna, why fucking show that to anybody? Because even if they look at you,

if you give them something to read, and you're looking at their face, you're like, give it back. You're like, no, I like it. Nah, I don't know. I know exactly what you mean. I can be like that too. I've definitely gotten tougher though.

I've gotten thicker skin over the years. Yeah, yeah. But it's important to be empathetic enough to realize that they probably don't mean it as badly as you think. Why would they? They just probably have no idea what a freak you are and how sensitive you are. They just think you're a normal person. So they're just saying, yeah, this part could be better.

And you're like, what? You mean I shouldn't exist? My very existence isn't justified. Exactly. Yeah, I think I had... Hard to live with. I had that part of me, but it's definitely... I've decided to be tougher about it because otherwise you can't.

Yeah, I mean, you have to be able to grow from constructive criticism. You have to be able to internalize it from your smartest friends and take the advice seriously and improve. Because otherwise you're just going to basically be you forever, which is okay maybe. No, but what it is, I think it's fundamentally childish. And, you know, coming from, you know, whether it's a kind of permissive upbringing or from, in my case, parents that were sort of self-involved to the point where it was permissive. Is that, you know, you know, if you don't get some sort of healthy sense of failure, either through sports or whatever the fuck it is, or at least one parent, you know, teaching you how to shoulder that stuff. I mean, you're going to have this emotional part of you that's like five. Exactly.

Which I think is why I hope the next generation of parenting, the post-boomer parenting, takes a page from both previous generations. from both previous generations. Because I think, you know, it may have swung too far the other way. Right. Which is not wanting to have your kid dislike you because you're being tough on them. And, you know, there's this, I guess, fable I read.

It's about parenting. Like a good parent will tell their son like jump off the stairs I'll catch you like don't worry you can trust me and the son jumps and you just let him smack himself on the floor and he goes why did you do that and he's like because that's you know this is what the world is going to be like and I think that's really hard to do as a parent because you actually have to you have to be mature enough to rationalize that this is best for the kid, even though it's going to be uncomfortable for you because they're going to be mad at you for a while. But if you actually care about them and not your feelings,

then you can prioritize their growth over, maybe they'll always be mad at you for that. But if you really love them, you should be able to take that, your hurt feelings, for their growth, which is, I think that's difficult. And you don't have kids. No, I don't. You want to. I mean, theoretically, I do. I mean, at this age, every time I see a kid, I'm like, oh my God, I love kids. But it's not something that I've always been like headed towards.

And Charlotte and I have been together for like 12 years and we're still not married. And we're kind of, well, in one way, I think we're closer than a lot of our friends who've gotten married and divorced like several times since we've been together. We're tight. So I don't know if we need marriage to qualify it.

But it's also because I don't think either of us had many examples of marriage being somehow a beacon of real love. It's always been kind of complicated in our lives. We don't have many role models who are necessarily better off because they're married i'm sure they're out there but you know we're just kind of finding our own way i guess that's good but in terms of uh like you know we you were talking about you know just like we we really talked about your mom a lot and we talked about your dad to a degree but like when I watch something like that, Doc, when you see that stuff, was that part of your, you know, building a relationship with him? Yeah.

It's hard to explain this. It's whenever I see a film about my dad or go to, there have been museum shows about archival stuff, like in Japan or wherever. You know, as grateful as I am that all of that's out there, it kind of feels uncomfortable for me because there's something really personal in my heart

regarding memories of him, real memories of him, heart regarding memories of him real memories of him and and just you know his books and his guitars and you know being in the house and just watching the muppet show with him sure that stuff feels so so precious to me that when it's externalized into some kind of media format it actually feels kind of uncomfortable i mean i'm not it's it's not like it's traumatizing right it doesn't feel as connected as the real life real world stuff i'll just say it's not as important to me as just, you know, my personal memories in my own life. And you have a relationship with your brother and everything? Yeah. That's great. I do. And that's always been the case? It's always been the case. I think there have been different times when we haven't been actively as close, but we've always loved each other deeply, irregardless of whatever kind of public media complexity there was.

I don't think people realize how close we were. I mean, there were times when he stayed at our house in the Dakota and he taught me guitar. were times when he stayed at our house in the Dakota and he was Tommy guitar. And, you know, when his first record came, when his first record came out and was a huge hit, I mean, he was absolutely my hero. You know, I mean, I, I, I was as inspired to play guitar because of watching him play the show at the beacon that I saw as I was, you know, by, you know, my mom and dad playing music. It was, he, you know, he was. He was like the cool, successful leather jacket wearing better singer than me musician who really was killing it.

So I totally looked up to him. I think the media perception of our relationship is one of the most false narratives I've ever seen. I mean, I think people imagine that we were kind of pitted against each other, but that just never happened between us. There have been tensions between the family publicly about certain things,

but it never spilled over into our relationship. We've always loved each other, yeah. It's so funny too, because you both sort of like, there is a genetic component to your vocalization styles that is Lennon-esque. Yeah, but you know,

he definitely has better pipes than I do. Right. He can really sing. There's a phrasing thing that seems similar. There's something in there for sure. It's funny because, again, my first album,

I remember intentionally trying not to sound like my dad because I was kind of nervous about that. So I wound up singing this way that to this day I can't deal with. It was very, it was sort of like a whispery whine and I didn't use any effects on my voice because every time I did, it would make it sound more like my dad because my dad, he'd slap or he'd use flange or whatever. So I avoided all that stuff that actually makes my voice sound good. And then I intentionally didn't sing out because whenever I sing out, I start to sing more like him.

Like if I push the air, I get more of a grit and then people start to say, wow, you sound like your dad. So I kind of regret overthinking it when I was young. So now I actually just sing the way that comes natural to me, but I do sound more like him when I do that. And there's nothing I can do. No, no, I think it's nice.

Yeah, I mean, I've got that texture in my voice, and I can't really avoid it. But I'm just praying that there's positive growth in my future. I definitely, it's daunting to imagine that I already, you know, had my chance. Don't think about it that way. Apply your new skills. Yeah, no, I am. And I definitely play better than ever.

And I feel like I understand music better than ever. Well, I think you're doing great. And I like the new record. Thanks. I really appreciate it, man. That's cool. I mean i was surprised to to even know that it was on your radar that's cool man yeah well i mean it's like things get on my radar by people saying like you know do you know this stuff and i'm like i don't and then i ended up listening to like a lot of this stuff and getting in to your mom's stuff and then to your you know some of your dad's other stuff and then like all

your stuff so like you know it's So it's been a fun week. That is the cool thing about the internet is you can find something and then very quickly kind of learn so much about it. And just listen to it, experience your own, your creative evolution because there's so much out there how you're going to choose this stuff.

But it's great and it was great talking to you. Mutual, man. It was fun. That was great. You got to know that guy, huh? And, you know, everybody's came along. Nice. The album, South of Reality by the Claypool Lennon Delirium,

is available wherever you get music. They're on tour this summer all across the country. You can go to ClaypoolLennonDelirium.com for tour dates. You can go to SwordOfTrust.com for information on the Sword of Trust. Lynn Shelton's movie with me in it and Michaela Watkins, John Bass, Jillian Bell, Toby Huss, Dan Bacadal. Funny stuff. Toby Huss damn back it all funny stuff you can always go to sort of trust

dot com for details about all the different places it's playing there's a lot of places coming up alright no no music

Boomer lives We'll see you next time. need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice rink on uber eats but ice tea and ice cream yes we can deliver that uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region see app for details discover the timeless elegance of cozy where furniture meets innovation designed in canada the sofa collections are not just elegant they're modular designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the Cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca,

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