WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1038 - Geena Davis

Episode Date: July 22, 2019

Geena Davis says the biggest thing she had to learn as she made her way through show business was how to speak up for herself. This was particularly difficult because she was taught at a very young age that politeness was paramount, to the point where it endangered her life. Geena talks with Marc about how the industry as a whole needed to go through a similar change, which is why she gathered a team from her institute to amass evidence of institutional sexism and gender bias. They also talk about the legacy and cultural relevance of movies like Thelma and Louise and A League of Their Own. This episode is sponsored by Good Boys from Universal Pictures, Starbucks Tripleshot Energy, and Ben & Jerry's. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucking delics what's happening my name is mark maron this is my podcast, WTF. It's been my podcast, WTF, for almost a decade, since 2009, folks. How's it going? Are you all right? How are you holding up in the heat? It's bad, right? It's like end of the world bad, right? It's like, oh man, we fucked it up bad,

isn't it? Or maybe you're of the other way of thinking. Nah, it's just, this happens. It's happened before. No, it hasn't. I think it was 175 degrees in Detroit. Maybe I'm exaggerating. I think it was 192 in Scottsdale, Arizona. Is that, am I off? I think it might've broke 200. It might've broke 200 in Maine.

That seems worrisome. I think it was 212 degrees in Florida. But you have the ocean, so it's nice. You just have to wear a sunblock. Maybe use paint. Yeah, maybe you should just use some kind of ceramic coating for yourself. So look, Gina Davis is on the show today. Gina Davis is, I don't use this word a lot,

but I hung around with Ira Glass for a few minutes and he uses it. Wow, back. Wonderful. Gina Davis is wonderful. She's in GLOW. She's in the new season of GLOW, which I think premieres August 9th, I believe.

But she has a lot more important things going on, to be quite honest with you. She'll be receiving the Gene Herschelt Human humanitarian award by the academy of motion picture arts and sciences at this year's governor's award ceremony she's got that going on and she executive produced the documentary this changes everything it will have a one night only showing across the country tonight, July 22nd, before going out into theaters and on demand on August 9th. This documentary blew my mind, changed my mind, changed my life. You know, as some of you have gleaned from my disposition, I seem to be putting a lot of new things in the head, opening the heart a little bit, understanding my part in things and understanding the way the world works.

It's a painful process, especially because the world is ending. It's sad that a lot of us are going to be kind of coming into our own and understanding what's really happening and how we can help. And then it's just going to burn up. It was 272 degrees in st louis last night yeah yeah i'm not kidding you your pool better be cold you better have some ice cubes in the pool because it was almost 300 degrees in uh san francisco yeah don't don't even talk about texas it was up around 390. Thank God for the suits, right?

The heat suits that we have now? Thank God. Yeah, there's not a lot of vegetation to look at. It's just kind of a baked landscape with cracks and stuff. Few lizards. Few lizards lived. Yeah, some other weird new bugs. Some large spiders.

Basically, what they used to have in Australia is all the wildlife we have in the continent now. Just large spiders, fucked up snakes. And yeah. And then there are the strange people that have adapted and grown scales. They're disconcerting. But hey, you know, it's good that we have our cooled down apartments and we have our heat suits. And we can go out into the 382 degree weather in houston it's all right it's gonna be okay look look oh god sword of trust sword of trust the movie i'm in the movie that lynn shelton directed it's spreading we're spreading to theaters it's like viral we're

now up to more than 70 theaters across the country showing the movie sort of trust this summer go to sort of trust.com to check out if it's going to be playing near you this friday it expands to more than 20 new cities including atlanta philadelphia seattle and portland oregon also i will be at the just for laughs festival in montreal where it is now just under 362 degrees that's this weekend i'll be in montreal and next week starting thursday august 1st i'll be at good nights in raleigh north carolina where it was a comfortable 194 degrees yesterday no problem water rising my brother was in town i have a brother i have a little brother It was a comfortable 194 degrees yesterday. No problem. Water rising.

My brother was in town. I have a brother. I have a little brother. And we had a nice time. And again, something's happening. Something's happening to my heart. I'm telling you. He just came out for the weekend.

You know, he called me a few weeks ago. And he was like, why don't we hang out? We're brothers. And I'm like yeah i mean we should i but he lives in phoenix i live here and it's just one of those things like why are we not i just why just he said i just feel like hanging out you know i'm like that sounds good so uh he came out and we just spent the weekend together had some nice food it was so great it was so great because i don't i don't know you know it's rare that you like even if my mom comes here which she did once it wasn't bad but I don't know what to do with my mom after an hour do you

but you do you hang out you do this you go you shop you do whatever you're gonna do but it's my bro it's my brother my brother Craig he came out and we just you know we we literally sat in the car and listened to jazz for like a half hour before one of the screenings of Sword of Trust. Had a bite to eat. Got up. Cooked some food. Sat around, listened to music. Talked about whatever.

Just no distance. Just brothers, man. And we just kind of, we took a walk. We took a hike. And we just talked. No pressure. Brothers. Brothers. My brother. And I love love him and he's a nice guy he's nicer than me it's weird because we're brothers and i don't know what your

sibling relationship is but i look at him i see myself we got the same drive shaft the same wiring but somehow or another he uh he fought the good fight with himself and he's a nicer guy. Things are heavy for him. Things are heavy for me sometimes. But generally, I'm a little defensive first. He's always nice. I introduce him to friends of mine and they're like, he's really nice. And of course, I'm like, what are you saying? What does that mean?

What does it mean that my brother's nice? What about me? You're all right. All right, I get it. He's like a nice version of me. It's an inspiration. It's an inspiration. It's an inspiration. So this Gina Davis conversation, I watched the documentary. I didn't know what it was. I just recently worked with Gina Davis. I love Gina Davis. Who doesn't

love Gina Davis? But I watched a documentary called This Changes Everything. And it's really about equal opportunity, equal pay in show business. It's about the struggle women have in that business and in general, and what really the product of show business is and how it represents women. It kind of focuses a bit on young girls and what they're taking in when you limit the presence of women or limit the characters of women or limit the actual women that can do the work behind the camera in front of the camera that why wouldn't young girls watching it sort of contextualize the world like that well the world has been like that and i'm in the process of educating myself and being educated and that was a it's really mind-blowing because gina put together this i don't know, it's really mind blowing because Gina put together this,

I don't know if it's a foundation or what you would call it, to do the research to really get data on representation of women on screen, on camera, and also obviously in writing rooms and directors.

But that's easier to get that data. But to really, she had people sort of sit down with all the movies and just make notes and the data is disturbing and it's i'll talk to her about it but it was um i i've been talking to a lot of very powerful but informative women on this show recently and it is formative women on this show recently and it is helping me and i hope the conversations are helping you i do and i'm not again this is not what you would call virtue signaling this is a person re-educating himself in the proper way okay so the the documentary this changes everything

will have a one night only showing across the country tonight this is july 22nd before going out into theaters and on demand on august 9th and that's also the day glow season three premieres on netflix so you can watch me and gina in that and also she'll be receiving as i said at the beginning the gene herscholt humanitarian award by the academy of Motion Pictures, Arts, and Sciences at this year's Governor's Award Ceremony. And she deserves it. The work she's been doing, she's just great. She's just great. And I talked to her. And now you can listen to us talk now. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Did you have fun doing that show? I did, yeah.

I had a good time. Kind of wild, right? You guys are great, yeah. I know it was weird this season because we're all, and I can't spoil anything, I don't think, but we're all sort of off doing our own lives. Right. So I missed all of that.

The singing, the show. Like I wasn't there. Oh, right. So I got to wait. I have to wait to see it. You have to watch it. Yeah. Yeah.

But that was good. I was so happy you were part of it. Yeah. It was really fun. You guys are great. Yeah. Yeah. They're all so, it's crazy.

Yeah. In Vegas. It's crazy. Yeah vegas crazy yeah yeah get crazier when i see i feel like i missed everything i can't now i feel we're into the spoiler territory yeah yeah so i watched um i watched a doc last night this changes everything you did cool why it would have been pretty awful if you showed up and go like no i didn't really have time to watch your little lady thing you Hopefully, I'll be able to get it. I'll try to fit it in at some other point, but we can talk about it anyways.

That lady thing, yeah. It seemed pretty interesting. I just, you know, I hope you guys work it out. But I found it, you know, being somebody. What's interesting is I've been talking about this a lot lately because I talked to Yves Ensler and I've been talking about it in my stand up as well about my generation of men. And I was keeping it specific that like I'm 55. So I would say things like, you know, my generation of men, you know, really needed this waking or this education, but it really turns out culturally that I think that the documentary shows very specifically that it's not in any way that men are victims here in the sense that we all got the same information. So like the patriarchy or the cultural sexism was not

my generation. It's something that all of us grew grew up with absolutely right so so there's like you know for me like i i made this assumption somehow that well there's this younger generation of the evolved dudes right that are you know are sensitive to all these things and it's it's it's not true that all generations and you prove it fairly specifically right are were brought up with this cultural education and institutional education. And it just broadened what I was already sort of dealing with and trying to wrap my head around into a more common experience. There's no men that get off the hook in terms of what they grew up in.

Maybe some are more evolved than others and more sensitive, but we're all getting the same information right right so we're all sort of uh that was the that was the ocean we we um you know white male entitled fish were swimming in right right that's true yeah but when you look back i guess you know because i want to talk about the whole thing but i think that your experience you know as a woman and you know, a lot of this starts with, you know, what are young girls taking in? Right. You know, because, you know, this industry dictates the cultural narrative in a lot of ways. Yes. Right.

Yeah. Right. But when you look back at your own life starting out um are there things that you frame as regrets no no i don't uh uh well you know i i wish that i was uh that i became woke a lot sooner you know because uh you know we're getting the same message as the men that, I mean, which is frankly that women are second class citizens, but, you know, nobody realized that. Women didn't.

Women. Yeah. And I don't think men did either. I don't think consciously they thought, well, women are second class citizens. I don't know. It was just the way things were. Just kind of the way things were. Yeah. There's a sort of weird sort of established historical codependency right right exactly and that and that's that's being you're probably trivializing it actually

it's worse than that yeah yeah uh but so uh so i wish i'd noticed things sooner. And partly, for me, one of the biggest things was learning that it's okay to speak up and stand up for yourself. You know, I was raised in a very, very specific way. Where? In Massachusetts, small town. What part? Wareham. It's right near the Cape. Yeah, I know.

I started my career there and doing one-nighters all over the Cape. Oh, small town. What part? Wareham. It's right near the Cape. Yeah, I know. I started my career there and doing one-nighters all over the Cape. Oh, no way. And all over Massachusetts. That's cool. So I'm familiar with those towns. Yeah, yeah. The ones that are closer to Boston, some of them are pretty dicey. Yeah.

True. But how were you brought up? Well, that being polite was the number one most important thing in the world, to have people like you and not cause any waves and have no needs. Right. In fact, I keep thinking if I wrote a book, maybe a title would be, I almost died of politeness or something like that. Because I actually, I'll tell you the funny story. When I was a little kid, I had an uncle that was 99, and we went to dinner with him. My parents and I went to dinner with my uncle. The 99-year-old uncle?

And his wife, and he drove. Yeah. And when we were driving back, he kept kind of veering into the oncoming traffic lane and then veering back and veering in and it was all kind of okay but scary and and my mom uh i was on the uh behind the driver she picked me up and put me in the middle of the two of them so that when we died i would die a little bit less and uh and then he veered into the oncoming traffic lane and stayed there and we were about to have a head-on collision and nobody said anything my wow my parents didn't say anything yeah and it was literally like we're gonna die in one one second. Yeah. And finally his wife said, a little to the right, Jack.

And he veered right. And I still remember the faces of the people with the horror on their faces. Thank God she stepped in. Inches away. Right. But my parents would have rather die and kill me than say, you know, steer right. Or even very politely, like she said, maybe a little bit to the right, Jack. But when they got home, did either of them go like, why is he still driving?

No, no. How did they, what did they do, your parents? My dad was in the Corps of Engineers his whole life and my mom was teacher's aide and worked in as a nursing home craft person and was a waitress in a restaurant. She always had some kind of job going on. And was it a religious thing or just a New England thing or like the politeness and the kind of I mean how were you brought up in that way? I don't know if it was. I guess it's not inherently religious.

I just wonder. Well, they were very religious. But it was something about, you know, and also having no needs from anybody else. You absolutely don't need anything from anybody. Like when I went to a friend's uh to play yeah i couldn't eat or drink anything like if even if they were handing you an ice cold glass of water that they already poured yeah i had to say no thanks i'm not thirsty that's polite yes evidently yeah it was weird so i grew up never uh thinking about my opinions of anything, you know, that I just should go along and try to make sure that everybody really, really liked me.

And I drove, when I dated, I drove guys crazy because they'd say, what do you want to eat? I don't know. Nothing. Where do you want to go? Nothing, really. No, I'm fine. I don't want anything. And it would finally be like, oh, my God, will you. Where do you want to go? Nothing, really. No, I'm fine. I don't want. And it would finally be like, oh, my God, will you just say what you want?

Yeah. But so I entered the business with that kind of mindset. And so there was never any question that I was going to say, can we change this line or I don't want to do that or something like that. But when you started, like when you're in Wareham, when did you start getting interested in expressing yourself in acting or, because you do a lot of things. I mean, you play instruments, you shoot arrows, you act, you know, and now you're an activist right but what was the first thing uh well my parents said i told them when i was three that i wanted to be in movies yeah and i can't even what would i have seen how would i know that was a job even you know uh but you probably somebody saw some

kid that was having a good time i saw something i don't know yeah Yeah. So anyway, yeah. And that was it. That was my, that was it. It was either that or I also was attracted to wrapping presents in a department store. I thought that was like the coolest job ever. Around the same time, I'm hoping. Yeah. I hope that one drifted to the wayside by about five. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you, did you act in high school and all the way through it? No. I kind of kept it to myself. It was kind of like this thing I was going to do

once I left. No arts? Well, music and art, art. You know, I was really into drawing and painting and stuff like that. What did you play? Flute, piano, and pipe organ. Do you play any of them still?

Not regularly, though. Pipe organ? Yeah, well, and pipe organ. Do you play any of them still? Not regularly, though. Pipe organ? Yeah, well, because my piano teacher was also the organist at our church, and so she taught me how to play the organ, and then when they had an early youth service at church, I played the organ. That's a powerful feeling, playing a big pipe organ. Yeah.

Yeah, man. man wow so when did you actively start doing it the acting uh i decided i was going to study it in college i didn't i didn't know there were schools you could go where it's only acting i would have gone there but um but i asked my music teacher where, where do people go if they want to study acting? And he said, oh, Boston University. Okay. So that's where I went. At School of the Arts?

Yeah. I went to BU. You did? Yeah. Where did you study? I was in the English department, but I took classes up there with Bill Young, I think his name was. Oh, yeah, Bill Young.

He was my teacher, yeah. Oh, yeah? Oh, what do you know? He was kind of intense. He was pretty intense. Yeah. You know, with Bill Young, I think his name was. Oh, yeah, Bill Young. He was my teacher, yeah. Oh, yeah? Oh, what do you know? He was kind of intense. He was pretty intense. Yeah. He was cool, though. I liked him.

So it's become a pretty good program. Was it good when you were there? It has become a great program. It was good. There was very little emphasis on film acting or television acting. It was all about theater. Yeah. And I think they sort of looked down on anything besides theater.

And so I kind of felt out of place. Like this is the nuts and bolts of it. Right. You can do whatever you want with it after, but don't talk to us about it. Right. We're giving you the pure stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

So I felt a little bit out of place. after but don't talk to us about it right yeah we're giving you the pure stuff yeah yeah so uh so i felt a little bit out of place and then um uh they never said if you want to go into movies you should go to la nobody ever said that so i went to new york with everybody everybody went to new york after school was anyone else in your uh class that we know? Well, Nina Tassler was the, what did she end up being? Chairman of CBS for about 10 years. And she's my best friend, and we went to school together. Oh, you were together? Yeah.

She was in the acting program? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. I always find that interesting that there are people, like in comedy as well, who, you know, they have a skill set or they learn the skill set but they don't always end up in that position in the business. Right.

You know like a lot of comics end up actors or producers or you know something but like you know she became she's in show business. Right. Absolutely. Did she used to direct or do any of that stuff before or was it like did she just go the business route after? She went the business route. Oh yeah.

She was like, this acting is not going to do it. I ain't going to make a break on this one. Oh, I guess. It's tough, right? It is. So you go to New York? Yeah, I went to New York. Scramble around?

Scramble around. I didn't know how I was supposed to get in a movie. So, oh, well, so I had this idea because, what's her name, Christie Brinkley was getting offered movie parts and Lauren Hutton too. I thought, oh, okay, I'll just become a model and then they'll just ask me to act. Yeah.

Because, you know, it's so much easier to become a supermodel. Sure, yeah, yeah. Good plan B. Good plan B, yeah. That's my backup plan. But anyway, I did become a model. I didn't have that kind of success.

I was on the cover of New Jersey Monthly, though. Good for you. Yes. Yeah, do you have that framed at home? You know I don't. I should have it up on the wall. My face doesn't even show. Oh, really?

I'm in a bathing suit with a hat over my face oh that's it yeah anyway uh but but i did get cast in tootsie from being a model the part required the character to be in her underwear a lot and they figured let's see if there's any models comfortably in her who can act yes exactly just just very comfortable and uh so they called my agency and they said, we have one. We have a model of Connect. And I tried out for the, I read for the part, just, you know, put it on tape or whatever with the casting assistant. And they had said, wear a bathing suit under your clothes. And if you read well, they want to see you in a bathing suit because, you know, the part.

And so I went and I had a bathing suit on under my clothes, but they never said, can we see your bathing suit? So I put it completely out of my mind. What are the odds my first audition, I'm going to get a part with Dustin Hoffman? I mean, that's ridiculous. And what are the odds you're going to get a part where you don't have to take your clothes off? In the audition? Right, right, right. right exactly and you got it and then but then i got it because i i went i was in paris when they said hey we like this girl where's her bathing suit uh stuff and i said we forgot get her back oh no she's in paris well do they have any photos of her in a bathing suit and i had been in a victoria's secret catalog say the cover of New Jersey magazine.

Yeah, well, they could have said that. But, yeah, they sent them the Victoria's Secret catalog, and they were like, okay, we'll get her. Okay, so, like, okay, in retrospect, you know, in terms of – because my first wife was a model, and that was a trajectory she was on now are you noticing you know this sort of like uh you know the propensity towards objectification completely i mean did you have any reaction to to that experience you know uh you know as somebody who was in that business right not no because you didn't frame it that way again you were living within the

patriarchal framework exactly that was just life right that was the ocean that we were all swimming exactly that's right that's right and you had your you had what you wanted to do and it was starting to manifest right so that's right it was not there was no injustice to the system it worked quite well for you in that moment. It did. You're right. I never thought about that. So the experience of working with Hoffman and Pollack was that?

Oh, my God. So fabulous. Was it? I can't imagine. It was so great. So this funny thing happened because obviously I'd never been on a set before and I was terrified they were going to say, well, she doesn't know what to do or where to stand and everything.

So I never asked any questions. But your upbringing as well, right? Right. Of course. So nobody ever told me you don't have to come every day. You just have to come the days you're working. When you're on the sheet. You weren't looking at the sheet. No. So I come every day you just have to come the days you're working you got you weren't looking at the sheet right no so i came every day all day you showed up for work

i showed up for work and nobody ever said you know it's interesting that you come every you know i guess they i don't know what they just assume and i would get a chair and put it right next to cindy pollack and sit next to him all day. And just watch? I just, like, here we are. And no one said anything? Here we are making this movie. No, he loved it. He was kind of always like, oh.

Was it like, you must have learned that way. I did. Even if it was a mistake, at least you were like getting a class. You were a class. I did. I did. And Dustin took me to dailies every day. He did?

Yeah. Which was fantastic. He said, you got to learn how to, you know, what you think you're doing, is it translating onto screens? Oh, that's amazing. So that was the advanced course you were looking for. That was the course in college that you didn't get. Exactly. Let's look at what you did. And did he give you direction? Yeah, yeah. Dustin did? He did too, yeah, yeah. About acting? you direction yeah yeah dustin did he did too yeah

yeah about acting sure yeah about everything oh really when you go to la when you know was he decent oh yeah no he was it was to me for sure yeah i didn't yeah uh that's nice i know it was great and pollock like what you know i i love that guy i love sy Sidney. Oh, my God. What did you guys talk about? Oh, he was genius. It was such an education to watch him direct. Gosh, we've talked about everything. And it was famously sort of a difficult shoot, I think, for him. I don't know.

There had been a lot of writers, and it was a lot of stress anyway, and he'd be rubbing his face with his hands and I'd say, I think it's all going to be great. Okay, all right. See, that politeness paid off. Exactly. Look at the chipper upbringing. It worked out. You saved Pollock's sanity. Oh, there we go. That's why it happened.

Yeah. So I could save his sanity. Well, I mean, but again, you know, in retrospect, that model is the one we're trying to shift a little bit. Right. That wasn't your role. No. I didn't mean to take that job. But fortunately, you know, it was a great education.

Right. Yeah. Exactly. And then how does it, like, and then what happens? Do you stop modeling? Yeah. Yeah. And then I got cast in a TV show from that and then moved to L.A.

and that was it. Watched with Buffalo Bill? Buffalo Bill, yeah. Because Dabney Coleman was in Tootsie. Yeah. And he thought, oh, she'd be great in this part in my new show. Now, what about Dabney? Good guy? Oh, yeah, yeah. Fantastic.

It's good. I think sometimes it's nice to hear nice stories about guys that play assholes. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. Yes. He was one of the great assholes on screen. Exactly, yeah. But what was the transition to

television like? Because like what's interesting about like, like, I think a lot of people associate you with movies. Right. And being, you know, having that presence for as long as you did and the movies that you were in, which made a tremendous impact. But I mean, but you right at the beginning, you were like, I'll do TV and you still don't mind doing TV. No, no. I love TV. Yeah. I had a great time. I wanted to have a spinoff of it. I had a lot of plans. A Buffalo Bill? A Buffalo Bill. Was that on for a couple of seasons? Yes, two seasons. And then I did a lot of guest spots on every show you can think of, like Fantasy Island and Knight Rider and all those crazy shows.

Remington Steel. Oh, good. And everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you're just working. I was just working. And it was coming pretty steady. Yep.

Yeah, it came pretty steady. So where do you fit the archery in? When does that happen? Oh, that wasn't until, gosh, that was after Long Kiss Good Night. Oh, so after the craziness. Yes. After the crazy patch. You needed to focus.

Yes. Yeah, I'm just a singular circle. Exactly. You've got to get zen. So the next big film you do is uh the fly yeah yeah what a movie that was my first lead part and it was really intense yeah it was so great like cronenberg like it's it's interesting because like a lot of the movies like that was i would assume at that time uh a fairly risky movie to do in terms of like, it wasn't, it must've been some, some version of an independent movie on some point, or was it a big

studio? This is a horror movie. We know what to do with this. It was, it was a Fox movie and Mel Brooks was the producer. Oh, that's right. Interestingly. Yeah. I think he produced the elephant man too. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think he produced The Elephant Man, too. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I talked to Mel. He's a good guy. Such a great guy, yeah. So he always had sort of like some weird kind of faith, or the guy who worked for him in

these kind of like real singular kind of vision directors. Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it was a big production. So it was a Yeah, it did feel like a big production. And and we loved it. Jeff and I just loved it. And is that where you met him? No, we met on Transylvania 65000. You left that off. I'm sorry. I really focus on the ones I remember enjoying and seeing. Exactly. What was Transylvania 6500? Oh, God.

This crazy, awful small movie that we shot in Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia? Yes, yes. That was crazy. I was a nymphomaniacal vampire in that. Oh, there you go. Yeah, it was very strange. But that's where I met you. Yeah. We were together five years old. Oh, wow. Oh, there you go. Yeah, it was very strange. But that's where I met Jeff.

Yeah. We were together five years old. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's like, you know, like both of you really. I mean, there are certain people whose personalities always sort of transcend

whatever role they're in. Like there's a natural intensity to the being. Really? Me too? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Oh, okay. No, you're singular. there's no doubt about it.

You know what I mean? So all right, so The Fly, now Cronenberg, like obviously you being new to the game with Pollock, everything was eye opening. Right. But working with somebody like Cronenberg, who has a very specific and very peculiar vision and is sort of meticulous about how he captures it in almost all his movies

you know what what was the experience working with him not really that different you know he he's incredibly confident and calm and knows what he's doing yeah uh which when i worked with more and different directors uh i found out that that's not always the case, that you're not always this calm, focused genius who knows exactly what they're doing and is very comfortable if other people have ideas. You know, that's an important part of it. Are you saying some of them are

tyrannical madmen? Well, possibly. It's happened. But it seems to me that that comes more out of Possibly. It's happened. It's happened. But it seems to me that that comes more out of insecurity, you know, that I have to be tyrannical because I'm scared of other people's ideas because I don't know quite what I'm doing and it all might go crazy. Right. So— Trusting their own creative process is daunting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Ridley Scott is like that too. Yeah. Exactly like that. Right.

Just totally so comfortable. Knows what he's doing. Happy, knows what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. It really takes a certain type of person to direct. Because like, you know, even like, you know, I'm friends with Lynn Shelton, who I don't know if she directed you on GLOW.

Yes. And she's very excited about the director element, you know, in the movie, in the documentary. Oh. Like, it was very, it resonated because she's a director. Yeah. Just that moment where you have a woman director saying, like, she was denied the opportunity to create a body of work. You know, like that's a very powerful thing to really put that into perspective that you have these, you know, talented people that for no other reason than the systemic sexism, you know, have all the talent and all the ideas and all of the wherewithal to execute to execute and and create you know a body of work that they they don't have access right yeah and you know it's it's sort of like it's it's it's

powerful disturbing stuff yeah it really is but back to like um cronenberg because that's really a a weird kind of a failed romance movie. Right, right. Yeah, that's how we looked at it, a sort of an operatic tragedy. And, you know, David said it was really a metaphor for, could be for somebody having a fatal disease or something, you know, that. Oh, no, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

It's also, there is an element of profoundly toxic masculinity in the character. Especially when he defends, you know, that moment where he defends, like, you're just trying to bring me down. Right, right, right, yeah. And he's, like, you know, able to climb on the ceiling. Yeah. This is amazing.

Right, right, right. That moment's a great moment. I can't believe you remember that. Well, it's like, it's a profound moment in any relationship, where especially somebody who is bipolar or has found something that their life, it's made them feel relevant and strong and everything has come together for them.

And how dare you? Right. And meanwhile, he's got weird hairs growing out of his arm and things are falling off. Yeah. His ear falls off. Yeah, yeah.

That was an amazing vulnerable moment where he's like, oh. Oh, yeah. And he's putting stuff into the cabinet. Yes. Oh, yeah, his teeth and things. So that moment, you know, we thought that was a very important moment where his ear falls off and, oh, my God, he realizes.

And, you know, and I hug him. He says, what's happening to me? Yeah, what's happening to me? It was very wonderful. So Jeff and I went to Times Square opening night to watch the movie, stand in the back and watch the movie with people. And it was so great because all anybody's doing is saying, don't in there he's a fly don't go uh but uh when that moment happened which we thought was so tender and wonderful people screamed and were talking so you couldn't hear the next two scenes and it was because i i hug him on the side where the ear fell off.

And so it was so gross. Oh, right, right. Goopy. So I jam my face up against this goopy thing. And people were like, bleh! Oh, yeah. Oh, bleh! That's hilarious.

We were like, oh, we should have thought. Well, I mean, no, it's good. Yeah, I guess it's good. It's a nice element. Right. It shows you really care. I cared. So, and then you go right into a more wackier horror movie.

I went right to Beetlejuice. Another wildly independent, crazy thinking director. Right, right. Exactly. See, I had to work with some great directors. Tim Burton. Yeah, yeah. In his youth.

In his youth. In his youth. Yep. When I met him, I said, listen, I want to be in this movie. I get this movie. I just get it. I really picture it. And he said later, I hired her because she said she gets it.

Yeah. And I wasn't sure that I got it. Right. So I thought at least somebody on the set, well, I could ask her if I get lost. I picture these, I'm glad these guys turned out to be good experiences. Like, and Kasdan directed the accident on tour? Yeah, he did. Yeah, he's another brilliant, brilliant director.

Very, just comfortable in his skin and just knows what he's doing and knows what he wants. And you feel yourself growing as an actress during all this? Oh, yeah. Did you study more growing as an actress during all this? Oh yeah. Did you study more when you were out here? Yes, I did. So when I got cast in Accidental Tourist, I knew it was like a huge deal.

And I thought I better get an acting coach to make sure I do a good job. And Gary Shandling, who I was friendly with, recommended Roy London. I hear this name a lot, the Roy London fellow. Yeah, yeah. He passed away, unfortunately, a little while back. So I went to see him, and it was such a genius move.

I worked with him on all my movies up until he passed away. What did he offer specifically? all my movies up until he passed away and what what did he offer specifically so we would just the two of us sit down with the script and just go through every line every scene every every moment and figure out you know what is going on what do i what do i want what am i trying to get and um it just helped me focus so much better instead of instead of sort of just feeling it and acting it that way because you feel like that's the right right thing to do but really try to what's the most interesting choice i can make here and things like uh this is a tiny example but uh i made this movie quick change with with bill murray and uh there's a line so we're trying to catch this plane the whole movie's about we're trying to get to the airport yeah and uh and at one point um randy quaid we see a plane talk

take off and randy quaid says oh no that was our plane we missed our plane take off and Randy Quaid says, oh, no, that was our plane. We missed our plane. And my line is, no, if that was our plane, it would be crashing. And so my instinct would have been to say, no, if it was our plane, it would be crashing. And he said, what if you're trying to comfort him with this? And so I ended up saying, no, if it was our plane, it would be crashing. And it was just better and funnier. All that kind of finding something that seems like the opposite of what's obvious, that your intention is almost always the opposite of what you're saying. Like if you're saying, I hate you, you mean I love you.

You know, that's very simplistic, but yeah. Oh, interesting. Because like it is kind of bizarre when you look at a script, just how much choice you have around that. I mean, there is a way it's written, and you do have instincts around how to play it. Right. But with just minor tweaks about where it comes from within you

can change the whole kind of tone of the conversation. Right. Right. And he also, well, this sort of fit with my personality too because he kind of made, one of his goals was to make you director proof that you know so well what you're doing that you're not going to get screwed up by direction and so let's say i'm doing i'm doing a scene you know where i'm very very upset yeah

and then the director says no i want you to do this scene very calm. Yeah. And so instead of throwing out what you were going to do, okay, now I'm very upset, but I'm trying to be calm. Right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you protect your choice by just making an adjustment. Right. And then it turned out I don't have to talk to the director about, you know, I don't have to argue, no, I want to play it this way. Right, right.

You know what I mean? I just work with a guy that, like, and I didn't mind it at all because I know I'm just sort of raw in a lot of ways and I you know I come to the thing with a certain amount of energy usually too much so really with most directors it's sort of like could you just take that down yeah yeah but like he would just literally say like I think this line is more like you know like he would like give me a little line reading but I could feel the emotion of it right you know and I'm like oh okay yeah, like he would like give me a line, but I could feel the emotion of it. Right. You know, and I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I can, I can do my version of what you just, of the emotion you were expressing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mind when directors do that. Do me a favor. Yeah. What do you, I'm not like I'm that committed. It's like, no, I'm going to, let's really run.

I, I, and I know actors do that all the time. I did. Like, I guess I'm so, you know, grateful and sort of, like, insecure enough to not become, you know, that guy. Like, sometimes I don't understand how some of these bigger stars become monsters. I don't know how they live with it. How do they become monsters? Well, I don't. I kind of understand that.

But still, like, I always give people the benefit of the doubt. But, you know, people are like, I'm not fucking getting out of this trailer until you get me these shoes. Oh, God. You know, and it's like it happens a lot. Oh, God, it does. And it's like, and it's another thing that they, like, not unlike, well, it's unlike it. But the kind of stuff that the industry absorbs and coddles is, you know, in the name of bottom line or just habit is kind of profound. That, you know, entire productions are revolving, you know, economically and time wise and with so many people involved around a guy in a trailer throwing a shit fit.

Right. It's crazy. It's crazy. It really is. It's like just do your fucking job. Really? Yeah. And I've run into that for sure.

Right? Oh, yeah. But I guess you get to a certain pay grade where they're not in a position to go like, fuck that guy. Right. You know, we're hanging the guy. The whole investment is hanging on that person. Right.

I just started thinking about this, too, when I was watching the doc, too. Just like, you know, the systemic tolerance for, you know, not only sexism, but just like insanity. Yeah. You know, because of the artist. Right. On all levels. Right. It's kind of amazing. It really is.

And almost every project has somebody like that, you know. So the Academy Award award you won that yeah yeah that was fun it must have been fun it was so shocking was it shocking no you know what happened uh i was um getting ready i was so you know excited and nervous and uh I sat down to eat some spaghetti before going and put on the TV and it was Oprah's show and she had like Gene Siskel and Rex Reed and all these

reviewers and they were right at the best supporting actress category when I turned it on. They're talking about this one, oh yeah, she might and she might, yeah. And they're talking about this one. Oh, yeah, she might, she might. And she might, yeah, no, no. And then the last one was me.

And every single person went, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Really? No chance. I mean, I had been thinking, you know, I have a one in five chance or something. I was so demoralized. I was like, oh, I guess I'll still go.

Speculators. Oh, yeah, that would have done it. I can't go. It's going to be too hard. Oh, well. Yeah, but he got it. And then he got up there and he got to get the award. Oh, no.

In front of everybody. Back then it was like half the world was watching. Now they can't get anyone to watch or even host the thing. Oh, my God. But it still means something, right? Yeah, absolutely. Well, it was interesting because it kind of felt like, wow, I got that out of the way pretty early. And it kind of felt really good.

Like, well, I just checked off something. And so, yeah. I just I checked off something yeah and so yeah now it seems like in the doc uh this changes everything that you know Thelma and Louise represented some sort of pivot point right in in terms of the industry you you know having you know putting some confidence and faith in female leads, having a female-driven movie with specifically female themes. Right. Because, you know, throughout the doc and this mission you have with the Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media, like that whole part of it, the research that your crew put in to that, the whole idea that primarily I think the two areas of like in the name of the children to some degree.

Yes. But also in the name of the grown up women who want to work. Right. That the evidence had to be presented. Exactly. You know, on this level of like, you level of how women are depicted in descriptions in scripts. What are women saying and would women say that? Their screen time in general.

And then behind the camera, on the writing level, the directing level, and all the way down the line. Yeah. That you had to amass evidence exactly of institutional sexism right it wasn't enough just to you know to spend a day anybody watching movies right or television right but because of this you know uh kind of um institutionalized and cultural sort of uh habit yes of framing women like this, that no one was really, like, other than women, you know, some women were kind of pushing back on it.

Right. Right. Well, what happened is, I mean, I knew what everybody knew, there were fewer female directors and writers and fewer female stars, you know, lead characters and all that stuff. But like you were saying, that's kind of the way it is or something was my thinking. And then when my daughter was a toddler, I started watching kids things with her, showing her preschool shows and things like that. And I immediately noticed that there seemed to be far more male characters than female characters in what's made for the littlest kids. You know, Teletubbies is gender balanced.

I don't know if it can tell. But other than that, it would seem to be a big problem, but apropos of what you're saying, I decided first I'm just going to bring it up when I have meetings with whoever, studio execs or producers. And every single person said, no, no, no, that's not true anymore. That's been fixed. Right. And I asked dozens and dozens of people this question, and every person said, that's not true anymore. this question and every person said that's not true anymore. And,

and sometimes they would name a movie with one female character as proof that gender inequality was fixed. And so that's when I realized I'm going to get the data because how, I can't be wrong in what I'm seeing. I don't think. And, and so, so that's what I did. And,

and of course it proves to be absolutely true. It's fascinating data, you know, and the sort of work that went into doing it. And also the doc goes into the fact that that wasn't the way it always was. Right. And I think that's a kind of a profound piece that in the silent era there like were literally you know hundreds of women working in film and directing film

and in the production side of film starring that yeah starring of course and you know well mary pickford was you know had her own united artists was she was part of it was griffith chaplain fairbanks and her? Maybe one other one? I don't know. I don't remember who was involved. But the primary reason it changed was when the studios were sort of became kind of property of banks and the corporate structure was less, you know, kind of wild westy and more organized

along corporate hierarchical lines, which were intrinsically male. Right, right. So the distrust of women or the condescension was brought in from another business almost. Right, yep. It's almost like there was this silent era that could have been flourished as an artistic

kind of independent world of maybe not so much multicultural at that point, but certainly gender balanced profession. You become come under the scrutiny of bankers and corporate interests. Right. Which were men. Right. And then and that's when it changed. Like it was actually there was there was this weird utopic time. Right. And that's when it changed. Like it was actually, there was this weird utopic time. Exactly.

And not many. I had no idea. Right. And there's a few areas you can think of that started out balanced and then got, you know, usually it's been, everything's been male dominated and then, you know. Sure. Women try to get in. Yeah. But at the time, it wasn't until they realized this is big money in this, that this is the most powerful cultural medium ever.

Right. Harnessed by humans. Right. Pulled down from the ether, the celluloid business. Yes. We're going to own the brains of everybody. Right. And men have got to be the brains of everybody right and men have got to be in charge of owning brains yes yes we have a certain message we want to send so did you

feel when when thelma and louise when you got that script and you know you saw you know the the impact it could have what were all these issues pressing at that point is that when it began to sort of become apparent that like uh you know this was going to be a uh a breakthrough movie and and you were aware of the issues at that time no and and nobody involved in it had any idea the nerve that it was going to strike or had that as a goal yeah um i just thought it was the best script I'd ever read. And it was unusual in that it had two female leads. And I couldn't decide which part I wanted to play. But anyway, and it wasn't until the movie came out. I mean, we were literally thinking, oh, we hope somebody sees this movie.

It seemed like a smallish movie, pretty low budget, certainly for a Ridley Scott movie. And when it exploded like that we were stunned it was amazing and very impactful because it wasn't just that people were talking about it and it made money and all that

but it was so different when I ran into somebody who recognized me from that movie than before. People would say, oh, I liked Beetlejuice or whatever. Right, right, right. Now they wanted to talk about it and tell me who they saw it with and how many times they saw it and what it meant to them and how it changed their life. Or sometimes people would say, my friend and I acted out your trip. I'd be like, which part? Really?

Well, there's a few people dead. Yeah. But also I think that in thinking about it in light of the information. They were fully realized female characters because a woman wrote it. Right. A woman wrote it. Right. Exactly. That there are things that happen in that movie that are specifically so intimate and

related to the female experience that they were beyond the conception of a man, really. Yeah. I can agree with that you know because like you know because i started to think about those scenes you know like the whole the horrible sadness of whatever susan went through which you know sort of remains unspoken yeah and then you know you're kind of falling for brad pitt what who wouldn't and you've given your predicament of the crazy, weird, tightly wrapped, toxic husband. Right. And this is the first time that you – and then the money – it's just like – and how you reacted to that was specifically from a woman's point of view.

Yes. Yes. And it would not have worked in any other way. Right. Right. You're right. Stuff that's in there probably wouldn't have been there if a man had written it. of view yes yes and it would not it would not have worked in any other way right right you're right stuff that's in there probably wouldn't have been there if a man had written it right right so when does the kind of like you know obviously you talk to some directors i don't i don't remember their names who you know obviously there were plenty of women in hollywood realizing the problem right before you know felon louise and you know going way back you know these fights had been fought before right uh you know you go into the there's a couple arcs in the movie

you know but the one of the major through lines is the DGA yes the director's guild and those directors what kind of happened politically in the show business way you know after Thelma and Louise around the issues that are are now kind of at the forefront? Well, the interesting phenomenon I noticed was that all the press about it said that now everything is going to be different because this movie had such an impact. Women can carry a movie. Yes, women can carry a movie and we're going to see so much more of that now. And then the very next movie I made was Lea Their Own, where people said the same thing.

Now there's going to be so many more female sports movies because it's been proven that there's an appetite for that. And then none of that happened. I think the thought was from everybody that things really would start to change. Yeah, because we did what they all wanted to do. We made money. Right. We made money. thought was from everybody that this that things really would start to change people because like you know we did what they all wanted to do we made money right we made money so you know how how could it like it's good big hit that's great yeah let's copy that um and uh actually callie the writer told me a story that um she had a writer friend of hers that was three years later was pitching a movie to some studio and it had also happened to have two female stars, but it had nothing else to do with Thelma and Louise.

And they said, no, no, no, no, there's been Thelma and Louise. Like, it was almost like now we can't have movies anymore with two female leads because it's been done. It was the craziest thing. And then, you know, what I noticed was every few years a movie would come out starring women and everybody would latch onto that and say, okay, well, now we're done. Now things are done and it's all changed. And it absolutely didn't. So this sort of reflective reaction of a male-dominated business was we threw them the bone. Yeah.

And that should placate them for a while. Right. And that they're a fluke, that they're always a one-off. They can never get any momentum going because everybody says, yeah, but, you know, we can't trust that that will happen. Because I felt like, you know, realized that Hollywood seemed to be run on the idea that women will watch men, but men won't watch women.

So everything we do has to be based on that fact. And it includes girls will watch boys, but boys won't watch girls. So everything had to be male dominated. And if there was a fluky, you know, instance where a girl was the lead, that's, yeah, but we still have to stick to our formula. Yeah, because it's what people expect. Right. I guess the thing that struck me that was interesting is that, you know, what's being presented here is logical it's logical and it makes sense but because of the the paradigm that exists you know these are men that don't think they're bad men oh right yeah so like and they just can't get the brain pop right that that makes them see

how stilted it is right or that it is fundamentally um you know discriminating right right because it's always been the way it's been yes and and that's sort of a weird thing to me because like you're dealing with you know thousands of years of of history it's almost genetic yep yeah but but the the switch that has to be thrown is a fairly simple one to throw. Yeah. And once it's like, you know,

once men realize it, what they do with that crossroads really determines, are you going to commit to being this kind of person? Mm-hmm. Or are you going to be a monster? Are you going to consciously support,

you know, instead of unconscious having to be unconscious discrimination are you going to now consciously yeah right it's sort of like you know once you go to aa and you get sober if you start drinking again you still got a head full of aa right saying like what are you doing yeah what are you doing yeah so and if you're saying like you know shut the fuck up i'm doing what I want to do. Right. Then, you know, you got personal problems to reckon with. Right. Exactly. And there's a lot of people that have personal problems to reckon with.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think people don't realize how much unconscious gender bias we all have, particularly men. I think you could say, well, no, I don't have gender bias. I have friends who are women. But we all have it. Men and women have it. And it's perhaps genetic by now. But the popular culture is reinforcing it every minute from the second you start consuming popular culture, you're seeing that men are more important than women. And you just take it in. You don't even have to realize, well, that's, you know, like there's no little girl who

says, I'm not seeing myself fairly represented up there. I should, I should. Yeah. And also then the sexualizing that happens in women. Right. To themselves in order to do what they think is necessary to function in the world. Exactly. But don't you feel like this industry thinks of itself as this separate thing?

Well, because we're a creative community, it's different. We have to make decisions based on creative process rather than what's fair or right. No, no, I think so but but i also think that you know really on the bigger level it's it's big big money yeah and like you know it seems like now you know whether progress has been made in a mainstream way that you know more people are making things of different you know uh ethnic groups and you know sexual orientation and gender but you know it doesn't get the support of a larger movie. But that's true with a lot of things in the movie business.

And I think that right now, I guess they're all pretty excited that they've successfully, they being the executives, is that we've integrated the Marvel Universe. And so that's all that matters culturally and on a bottom line level. Right. But so the disappointment of Thelma and Louise and the momentum that happened after that was that it did just recede back into its standard format. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. I mean, it changed me tremendously. It was kind of the start of all my awakening. League of their own Thelma and Louise. Exactly. I mean, it changed me tremendously. It was kind of the start of all my awakening. League of their own with Helen Louise. Yeah. Yeah. A very powerful one-two punch. And it made me, well, what it made me realize was how few opportunities we give women to come out of a movie feeling inspired and empowered by the female characters. And that's kind of the best part of watching a movie is you get to identify with somebody and you live vicariously through them. And it just made me sick to think about women being robbed of that experience. Right, of seeing themselves in things.

Right. People of color as well. Absolutely. experience right of seeing themselves in things right you know people of color as well and absolutely and it's just like yeah because when you really think about how important tv and movies are you know music's a little different because you know it seems like really everyone's pretty well represented in music you can find your own way there right but in these very in the stories that the culture tells you know that there's one point in the doc where someone says you know a black woman is like do i even exist oh yeah right i know right and like and i don't know that again that like i i don't know that i put that much

in my own mind intellectually that much emphasis on the reflection that movies provide right right you know it and i i just you know i understand the issues but i never really you know extended my empathy to like you know i don't know if i'm really represented in movies but certainly i identify and i can latch on to a character sure as my guy right but that's just it is my guy right do women have their woman right right you know not not usually yeah yeah yeah and a lot of times uh if there's an ensemble of like let's say there's six and there's one woman uh i think as a sort of trying to placate uh women or feminists or whatever you know she's very tough. She's the toughest one. And she's the not funny one.

Right, right. And that's written in the description of the script. Yeah, yeah. She's tough as nails. And there's even, I noticed a bunch of kids' movies, animated kids' movies where there'd be like four main characters

and one is a woman. And they cast somebody who's not a comic. All the other guys are Ben Stiller or Chris Rock and she's the wet blanket yeah the bitch character yeah the one come on you guys yeah yeah well going back to to your career so when you do what what happened after Cutthroat Island you know that you know in relation to because like you know, that, you know, in relation to, because like, you know, in the information about you, and I don't know how you see it, that sort of, you know, they kind of hung the sort of failure of that movie on you.

Do you feel that? Let me think. I know there's been a lot of talk about what a big failure it was uh but do you think i don't know i don't know that i saw so much that people said oh it's a failure because it was a woman instead of a man yeah uh but uh people were certainly very eager to jump jump on that yeah and you were you that was renny harlan right who you were with at that time. Yes. That must have made things difficult. Yeah. No, I was...

I mean, we were able to commiserate with each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, because we put a lot of effort and passion into that. Sure. And then the next movie we made together was Long Kiss Goodnight, which got a much better reception. That did all right at the box office. It did all right at the box office. It did all right, yeah, yeah.

But did you feel that there was a shift in your career after those movies that was particularly because you were a woman? Well, yeah, there was a shift for sure, and it was right around when I turned 40, let's think. Yeah, I think I turned 40 sort of right after Long Kiss Good Night. And so, you know, I had thought from the beginning that it wasn't going to happen to me. Yeah, right. Because when I was starting out was when Meryl Streep was winning, you know, French Lieutenant's Woman and Glenn

Close and all those women, Sally Field were having these fabulous movies every year. And I thought, well, they're fixing everything. I don't have to worry. And what happened to me was I was averaging about a movie a year. Yeah. And I was being very fussy about what I said yes to. Yeah. Until I was 40.

And then from when I was 40 to 50, I made one movie. But you did a lot of TV. I did some. I didn't do a lot of TV. I did some TV. When did the Geena Davis show happen? Right. That was about when I was 41, I think.

Yeah. And then when I was 50, I got Commander in Chief. Got to be the president.. Got to be the president. I got to be the president. I had a short administration. A one season administration. Yeah, yeah. But that was really demoralizing.

I mean, it wasn't that I wasn't offered anything, but nothing that spoke to me or that I wanted to play. It was just completely different all of a sudden. So my theory is, from examining this a great deal, is that people think of having a female character when it needs to be female, like she's the girlfriend of somebody or the wife or whatever, and that's going to tend to be somebody younger um and then yeah so for characters that could be either nobody's thinking about that they just you know the the default is always male so if it's the 50-old boss or the whatever, or even the best friend of the character.

Of course, male, male, male, male. And if they stop to think about it, they could realize, and this is what I talk about when I meet with studios, look at all the characters and see which ones you can turn into female because it doesn't make any difference. If they're not having sex with somebody,

it doesn't matter if it's a male or a female or female that's why i think so many women over 40 are not working is because people aren't being creative enough and thinking well wait a minute why couldn't this be a woman you know right and you would think that these men in their 40s and 50s who's at this point you know i i would assume their wives are involved in things and doing things in life right daughters are doing things in life right they might have some friendly relationships with women that are non-sexual and whatnot right exactly but it's still that it's a paradigm thing still you're up against this you know this uh the way it always has been right still and unconscious bias and you know it's just so easy to uh to default uh to mail you just don't think of it well but it's

interesting too like you know there's i had a conversation with somebody about this about this kind of idea that you know and and this is something I see as a dude, and I think that it happens a lot on all levels in front of the camera, writing, directing, is that, you know, now that things are kind of publicly and culturally shifting and the industry is aware and I think trying to do something about it, is you get a bunch of white dudes going like, well, I couldn't get the job because they're only hiring women. Oh, I couldn't get the job because they only want black people. I couldn't get the job.

Yeah, it's right. It's true. And, and, but see the, the, the fundamental fault in that is interesting because you know,

the, the system, the system given the way it is, is that, you know, men on all levels, no matter how shitty they are at their job, if they can do them, even if they're just hackers, you know, they're going to get the job.

Right. Right. Because that's just the way the system is built up. So these guys who claim that, like, it's not about whether you can do the job or not. That's the fallacy. It's like a lot of people have to realize, like, well, maybe you weren't doing it that good. That you all what's happening is it's become, you know, with equality on some level and less discrimination, it becomes more competitive because you have a whole world of people that are fucking great at it that have been denied the opportunity. And now, you know, your shoddy little resume is not going to stand up on the new field. Right, right.

It's not that it's being stilted in any way. It's just become more competitive because they've entered. There's a whole other world of talent coming in. Right, right. So these guys who were complaining anyways about their place in the world and why couldn't they get their own show on the air or whatever it is. Right. You know, now they can hang it on this. Yes.

Yeah. on the air whatever it is right you know now they can hang it on this yes yeah it's amazing how many uh people men think that way that now they only want black women or say well really let's look at the numbers how many black is it really that more than 50 percent of the people working now are black women but the assumption that that that's the only requirement right is really exactly that's not like unconscious bias right i mean or unconscious racism right that's bias bias because you don't take it to the next step which is like maybe that person's completely qualified has an interesting vision you know is better than you at the job like they didn't even want those possibilities to enter the conversation. Right.

They stop at black. They stop at women. They stop at gay. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. You know, my theory is that the easiest thing to change is the on-screen representation

because I really feel like that's unconscious for the most part, that that's unconscious bias. People don't realize they're doing it. This is just from my experience and how the data makes all the difference that they say, what are we doing? Yeah, right. Sure. Really? But that behind the camera, it's conscious bias because everybody's known those numbers for decades. Everybody's been completely aware. And it does nothing, knowing the numbers, does nothing to make anybody say, let's do better.

Well, I'm guilty of it. I mean, I had a show. I'm sad that my mind is so blown by all this, but it's good. Right. Well, what are you finding now? Like, you know, when you're, and I don't know how recent those experiences of you telling what you're telling to studio people. Yeah, we changed that.

Now, are you finding a shift in that? Because in the doc, you know, the 2018 numbers for directorial employment. Right. Were still pretty, they were low? Oh, yeah. No, nothing is improving as far as behind the camera. And directors, it does nothing but kind of go down and maybe, you know, it's always single digits.

And you can't even say, well, in 500 years we'll be equal because there's no progress whatsoever. So like I said, that's a big problem that's going to take people making very conscious decisions. I'm doing a bad job and I'm going to do better by being very conscious of it and taking these steps. You can't just think I'm hiring. I don't think anybody could say I hire based on merit if they haven't made conscious proactive steps to overcome their unconscious bias.

Like you can't say I'm so woke. All I do is make my decisions based on merit. I think that, again, it stops at that thing that there's this sort of idea that this is all some kind of expansion of affirmative action, you know, that, you know, that they're just, they're not looking past the idea of like, you know, well, how many women are there? We got to get women in here. As opposed to like, what is the full expanse of people that are capable of doing this? And I want to see the resumes of women, people of color, and the regular white guys. And so if we're going to start to integrate this decision-making process,

let's see the full pool of talent. Exactly. Not like we're required to get one of those ladies in there. Yeah. So when I was in Australia a couple of years ago, they told me about this short film competition, very well known there. And every year, only about 17% of the films that are chosen for the competition are directed by women. And a couple of years ago, they had the thought, you know what? Let's just try taking the names off of these movies.

So nobody knows whether a man or a woman directed it. Straight to 50-50. And these are people who were trying to do a good job. I really want to make sure we're fair. And they had to take the names off. we're fair yeah and they had to take the names off so it just shows how deep it is and how you can't just think your way out of it you have to make you know yeah and and also you know and i'm talking to men it's like okay look we've all been assholes you know i certainly have you know and i've talked about it at length and i've you've had to reckon with myself around a lot of it. But it is sort of on us.

You know, that now that the push is there and the awareness is there. Like it is on us. Yeah. You're struggling against a history of madness. Right. And your own stubbornness. Right. And your own, you know, unchecked bias that is just intrinsic.

So, like, it is an active struggle. And I think a lot of dudes. Right. And it's a struggle within themselves. Right. And to sort of step out, you know, and sort of take the hit of, like like you know dug in douchebags going look at the virtue signaling you know white knighting fuck fuck you know like uh you know like i don't know i'm a grown-ass man i'm 55 years old i'm not going to talk to you like a comic book character and

you know it's like you know you can be the way you want to be but you know it's our responsibility is evolve people to do this right well you know john langrath uh uh it was when he heard the data when he heard uh the numbers about how he was doing and how low they were ranked that he decided he was going to do something about it and and so bottom line bottom line so like you're saying once you know that you got to do something about it right and also also it's sort of like if this helps, it's sort of like there's money in these women. Exactly. Exactly. Well, movies starring women have made more money at the box office for the last few years.

In 2017, they made 38% more money at the box office if there was a female lead character. Well, on some level, it's because it's exciting and new. Exactly. Exactly. You know what I was going to tell you that I've never really talked about is, so we meet with everybody, every union and guild and whatever. This is with your institute?

With my institute, yes. But we had never spoken to anybody at the Director's Guild. And so the woman who, my CEO, was constantly calling them and trying to, can Gina speak to the DGA? And at first they said, no, she's too controversial. Really? Adding more women is too controversial. Okay. But she kept calling and trying different people and whatever.

And then they said, oh, we don't let anybody who's not in the union speak to the union. And then we find out that's not true. Of course, they have lots of people come in. And then finally, a year later, they call and say, guess what? We are going to let Gina come and speak to the DGA, but only to the women. DGA, but only to the women. In 2013, they said out loud, Gina can only speak to the women directors, who I don't need to talk to, obviously. But I went anyway to this conference and I said, I don't need to be talking to you guys.

And they were like, we know. And that was 2013. Yeah. Where are we at now with that I don't know I haven't been back I haven't yet

talked to you know had an opportunity to speak to the male directors as a group but it's a big problem

all I'm talking about is add more female that's all I wanted to say hey by the way add more female characters or you know cast women in some of the men's parts or let them direct problem. All I'm talking about is add more female characters. That's all I wanted to say. Hey, by the way, add more female characters. Or cast women in some of the men's parts. Or let them direct. It wasn't about

even directing? No, it was you're the director. Here's what you can do for on-screen representation. Given your visibility in the industry, have you found any receptive or actively supportive men in these different

areas of business as you have these meetings or like directors? I mean, you know everybody. Right, right. That's why I thought that the thing to do with the research was to go directly to the creators. You know, I don't have to get the public aroused and have them demand whatever. I could just go very quietly and privately in a very friendly and collegial way

and say, I don't think you knew this. What do you think? And the reaction has always been, oh my God, what are we doing? And that they want to change it. Obviously, I'm mostly talking to men because they're the ones that are decision makers and most of the writers and most of the producers and all that and directors. But they're very receptive to it.

And I think part of it is that I'm talking about what kids see first. And people that make kids' entertainment do it because they love kids. And so they're pretty horrified to find out what they're doing. Out of habit. Yes, yes, without even realizing it. And that's why I knew I needed the data because none of them realized it without that. So we're actually making progress as far as on-screen representation goes. And like I said, that's the lowest hanging fruit.

That's the absolute easiest thing to change. And I think it will change dramatically within 10 years. It's just so like, and I have one. It's kind of amazing how fragile the male ego is. Because like so much of this- When you said I have one, you meant a male ego is because like so much what you said i have what you meant a male ego you know but a lot of it you know that that is the you know day-to-day individual autonomous face of this thing are in these vessels that are manifestations of this ego that is threatened fundamentally threatened uh by women and why

why do you think that is i'm trying i'm trying to think right now yeah right um like what like in other words why would i don't dispute what you're saying but what makes a male ego so fragile when you're the guy's in charge. Because I think not unlike what we're talking about, it is built on the history of dominance. Right. So even in mundane situations, I imagine even in situations where the power dynamic is, is, you know, limited that, you know, even in a relationship that, you know, there, there's the part of the male ego that's sort of like, you don't, don't manipulate me, you know, you know, I'm better at you than this. Uh, you know, I, I,

I'm a man, you know, you know, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm not going to cry. You know, I, I, I don't need to show that part of me to you. You know, I'm a man, you know, and don't try to get it out of me, lady. Right. You know, like I think that the wiring of the male ego is built on the same foundation as all these problems. But that's how, you know, as a person you're sitting across from, you know, that's how it's going to reveal itself. Right. Right. It's based on that. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But but like, you know, in trying to open up to a more vulnerable place. Yeah, I have to assume it's fairly

emotionally infantile, you know, that that, you know, to be threatened like that. And who knows where it comes from in a lot of individuals. But to sort of put yourself forward and live in the vulnerability or at least untether yourself from that, you know, male-dominated paradigm is like weird and new and scary. And you feel like you might be, you know, just, you know, cry or get beaten somehow, you know? So like to sort of like, you know, wade into that pool, you know, it's sadly a lot to ask of some dudes. Right, right. You know, because it's scary on an existential level.

Right, right. Yeah, everything you thought was right might not be. Yeah? Yeah. Huh. In terms of work now, do you feel like you're working enough? Well, you're busy with this stuff, which is important. I'm busy with that stuff, which is important, but it's not my day job.

I would definitely work much more if the stuff was there. Do you like doing, like when you, because I know as I talk to actors, there's a lot of things that you do that you know going in, it's not going to be the greatest thing, but you're going to do the best you can. I assume there are some acting jobs. Well, this show is like, I don't know how it's going to go. Or like this movie, like it could be good. I'm not sure it's jobs. Well, this show is like, I don't know how it's going to go. Or like this movie, like it could be good.

I'm not sure it's out of my, it's in my control. But, you know, I like the part. Oh. Well, you don't have to. Well, you know, I've been really lucky in that, frankly, I haven't run out of money yet. Right, right. You know, I always say I can only be this choosy because I can afford to wait. Sure. And someday I'll be in some horrible movie or be in something that's, oh, I don't know how this is going to work out.

But usually it's good. I hope it's okay. But usually, it's not that I think, oh, this is going to be successful, but I love the part, and I love the director, and it seems like a great idea. Yeah, yeah. And Stuart Little was fun? Yeah, it was. It was really fun. People loved those.

People loved them, yeah. Kids? That was fun. It must be nice to do kid stuff. It is. It is. It's fun to have little kids recognize you. Yeah?

Yeah, it is. They get all excited. They do. They do. Although, they really- That you recognize you. Yeah? Yeah, it is. They get all excited. They do. They do. That you're a real person? Yeah. But they stare at me a lot because I don't look exactly like I did before. Right, right.

And so they're like, wow, I think that's Mrs. Little. But one of the most fun parts is talking to girls or young women that play sports because of League of Their Own. That's really fun. I know. That was great in the documentary. That's a whole other sort of result of that movie that you couldn't anticipate. No, no. I got into sports.

Yeah. That's very cool. Well, you're doing great work. I certainly liked working with you on GLOW. I loved working with you. Yeah. I'm excited for that to come out. Yeah.

you on glow i love working with you yeah i'm excited for that to come out yeah and uh and and thanks for uh you know uh you know being part of my education seriously i don't know how much you know are you a producer on the dock yes yeah so yeah thank you okay all right thank you that That was fun. Gina Davis. I love her. I love her. Everybody loves her. But I just talked to her. The documentary, This Changes Everything, will have a one-night-only showing across the country tonight,

July 22nd, before going into theaters and on demand on August 9th. You can see her in GLOW Season 3. And she's also going to win. Is it a winning thing? She is being honored with the Gene Herschel Humanitarian Award by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences at this year's Governor's Award Ceremony. I'm going to play some meditative guitar

that has a tinge of sadness to it. Okay. Alright. It was 400 degrees on them nose in boise idaho and it was raining sideways and hailing but that's just the way it is now guitar solo Thank you. Boomer lives. Boomer Lives! We deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age.

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