WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1044 - Bashir Salahuddin

Episode Date: August 12, 2019

Bashir Salahuddin is having a moment. He has two new shows out that he co-created and stars in, South Side and Sherman’s Showcase. He’s back in the third season of GLOW. And he’ll be in Top Gun: Maverick next year. But despite all this, Bashir tells Marc that he still struggles with the business aspect of show business. They also talk about his upbringing in Chicago, working with his comedy partner Diallo Riddle, writing for Jimmy Fallon, and dealing with a case of impostor syndrome while working with Tom Cruise. This episode is sponsored by Lights Out with David Spade on Comedy Central, Spotify, Good Boys from Universal Pictures, and Starbucks Tripleshot Energy. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy?

If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need. And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Lock the gate! soon go to zensurance and fill out a quote zensurance mind your business all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what theicks, what the fuckaholics, how's it going? What's happening? This is Mark Maron. This is me, Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it.

How's everybody doing? Is everybody all right? Are you okay? I'm obviously not in the garage right now. I'm in Portland, Oregon. I'm in a hotel room and I'm here doing a stand-up comedy show. You know, I got a lot of emails from everybody. I appreciate all the well-wishing and good thoughts and congratulatory salutations for my 20 years sober. I appreciate that. I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but it's a pretty big deal. And I certainly liked hearing from everybody, especially the people that seem to have gotten some help from me being me and talking about what I talk about in terms of getting off the booze, changing the life. It was really nice. It's been great. It's been overwhelming. I don't always know what to do

with the good things coming at me, but I am certainly happy to hear that I've helped out. I am happy about that. Last night, I did a show, Revolution Hall, which I don't know if you know about. Why would you? Revolution Hall is a venue inside an old high school. The entire high school has been turned into office spaces and they use the auditorium as a concert venue. And I'm starting to realize, because I've been there before, I've performed at that place before

and I felt a little weird. And I'm starting to think it might be triggering. It might be triggering to go into that place, which is essentially an American high school it looks like an American high school it looks like the high school I went to the hallways are just lined with lockers and the offices that are now offices they look like classrooms and you know there's two floors or three the auditoriumium, the venue itself, this performance space is a high school auditorium. And I started to realize on stage last night, maybe it's making me a little vulnerable.

Maybe it's making me not not in a good way, not in the intentional way. Something something strange, some sort of trauma trigger of what it was like to be in high school, man. I mean, I talked about it when I was on stage last night, but maybe I should give it a little more credence that it's a strange situation. I don't know. When was the last time you went back to your actual high school? I think I went back, I don't know. It's probably been over a decade, but I'm really starting to think that because I felt a certain amount of insecurity, I felt a little raw, a little weird, a little

in need of a type of acceptance that I haven't really felt in a long time. And I'm starting to, I really think it has something to do with that structure, man, with the actual physical structure of a high school. Cause they look the same, just those halls or lockers. There's gotta be part of your brain that kind of re just clicks back into that like I hope I don't run into that dude or I wonder if she's going to be at her locker today I think I'm going to walk down the hall again before class I wonder if I'm going to be late for class I didn't do my homework I think I'm going to ditch this class why doesn't those people how come they don't like me you know should I smoke the cigarettes should I not smoke cigarettes is it okay to get

high at lunch or will that fuck me up for the rest of the day i'm too high to be in this class i better ask to go to the nurse so i don't sound like an idiot because when my teacher asked me to read i couldn't read a lot of problems a lot of things happened before i get too lost i want to tell tell you who's on the show today. Bashir Salahuddin is here. I've worked with him on GLOW. He's a great actor and a writer, and he's got a new sketch show out called Sherman Showcase, which he co-created and stars in.

It airs Wednesday nights on IFC. He's also in season three of GLOW with me, which is now streaming on Netflix. Some other business at hand please go to sword of trust.com to find out where that movie is playing it's doing well they keep adding theaters and i you know i don't know what that means in terms of box office but i know it's out there to see it's still out there in movie theaters so you can go have that experience but it's also on demand and as i said you can go to sort of trust.com to find that shit out. Go to WTF pod.com for my tour dates.

I'll be in Dallas, Austin, Houston, Texas, August 22nd through 24th. A lot of other dates coming up. WTF pod.com slash tour. Ooh, man, what is happening? I, uh, there's plenty of reasons to be, you know, out of sorts. slash tour. Ooh, man. What is happening? There's plenty of reasons to be out of sorts. But we lost a very amazing creative mind and artist last week. David Berman committed suicide last week. David Berman committed suicide last week. And it's kind of a rough one.

I didn't know him well. And I came to his work late. I don't know if a lot of you know him. He had a band called Silver Jews. He was early on. He used to perform and work with steven malchmus from pavement and they kind of split ways i think and uh in turn creatively and malchmus went to

did pavement and um but i enjoyed the work very much and he was always an interesting character to me david burman he wrote a couple of books of poetry very very thoughtful guy. And, and once I, and he just had a record come out like a couple of weeks ago called a purple mountains. And it's a stunning record. And he hadn't really put out any new work in like 11 years. Cause he was wrestling with things. He was a depressive guy. He, uh, he had, you know, uh, substance issues. He had a profound, uh, problem and almost mythic struggle with his father. And the only reason I know this, again, I don't know him well. But once I was introduced to his work and I found out he lived in Nashville and I reached

out to him to do the podcast before I went down to Nashville a few years back to perform. And he got back to me and he and his wife at the time that they, they came to a show. And, uh, afterwards he said, I don't want to do the podcast, but why don't we, why don't we hang out and talk and get to know each other? So we went out to a place and had something to eat. And we sat there late at night in Nashville at a, at a restaurant. And he just told me the whole story, the whole David Berman story for a couple hours, you know, primarily focused on this struggle he has, he had with his father, Richard Berman, who was sort of a public relations executive and lobbyist for like the

worst of things, you know, alcohol, firearms, tobacco. But it was just such a strain on on David and I just remember just really loving the guy just from not only his music but then talking to him and just feeling the weight of this dude's heart you know and and then you know realizing that the work kind of came through that heart and that you know he's one of the great sort of navigators of darkness, a light, you know. And he just recorded this great record, and I reached out to him. I mean, I literally emailed him, like, on July 18th. You know, what is that? Like, just a couple weeks ago.

It's the 10th. I think he passed away just a couple weeks ago it's the 10th i think he passed away on this just a few days ago on the 7th and like i just have this email exchange because i love the record and um man it's just i just wrote to him and i i said you know i said i always said was the new record is great if you want to come on the podcast, it's an open invitation, Mark. And on July 18th, he got back to me, said, Mark, I would be happy to do your show after a little more time has passed, say this winter or spring, when I've had time to reflect on what it's been like to jump back in the pool after 11 years sequestered inside.

I'll give you better material and be a more charismatic guest, no doubt, after I've had time to make these necessary psychic adjustments. I don't want to show myself when I'm still in the process of making them. DCB. And that was just a couple weeks ago, less than three weeks ago. And then, you know, like four, four or five days ago, he hangs himself. It's hard, man. It's hard if you're sensitive, if you're teetering or you're prone to depression or

unstable in those ways in your mind and sadly so much of that disposition lends itself to to a type of creativity that has to resolve existence in that darkness that has to find you need to to express yourself in order to get through it. You know? He was just, I don't know. Just a sensitive, struggling, sweet guy who really did some amazing work. And it's just fucking heartbreaking. And that kind of, yeah, it's weighing on me.

You know, these suicides, there's been a few. Deaths have been always, there's a lot, but when somebody makes that choice who had such a gift and such a sensitivity and it just buckled under the weight of it, it's just, it's really kind of heartbreaking, and I would like to, I just, I was going through some of his poems, and I just, go listen to the records, really.

If you don't know David's work, go listen to Silver Jew's records, or just, even if you just want to get that new one, Purple Mountains. I mean, it's, sadly, you listen, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, you listen to it. And in, in light of what's happened, it, you can hear it, but it's a beautiful, beautiful record and, and funny in some places too. And,

and, and catchy. And, but anyways, uh, rest in peace, David Berman, you genius and,

uh, and navigator of the dark places of the heart. And I'll just read this small poem that I found. I was looking around for one. And this is a poem called And the Others by David Berman. Some find the light in literature others in fine art and some persist in being sure the light shines in the heart some find the light in alcohol some in the sexual spark some never find the light at all and make do with the dark and one might guess that these would be a gloomy lot indeed. But no, the light they never see, they think they do not need.

Fuck, man. Well, he will be missed. And there's a lot of great work that he did. And again, I highly recommend you seek that stuff out and honor this guy because he was the real fucking deal don't mean to bum anybody out but I needed to do that to honor an artist that that that had an impact on me so now Bashir Salahuddin is a great guy, talented guy. I met him as an actor,

didn't know much about him, worked with him on glow, had a few small chats, then found out, you know, he used to be a writer for Fallon that he'd done. He's done a lot of writing in his own right. He's also,

you know, he's acted in a lot of different things. He's in the new top gun movie, but I just didn't know a lot about him. And then when it came up that he's got this new show out, I'm like, fuck, yeah. I want to talk to Bashir for sure. So this is me and Bashir Salahuddin. That's a tricky last name.

I'm going to have to ask him about that. I did ask him about that. You know, I recorded it already. Anyways, his new variety sketch show Sherman Showcase, which he co-created and stars in airs Wednesday nights on IFC. He's also in season three of Glow with me, which is now streaming on Netflix. This is me talking to Bashir Salahuddin. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy?

If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. We'll be right back. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. You were a regular guy? No, no, no. I did it two weeks ago. It was cool. It was educational. Really? I'm just learning.

I don't do a lot of this stuff, so I'm learning. What did you learn, Bashir? I learned when I did that show, and I did Questlove's podcast, too. I learned the most important thing is that I have to pace myself, because I came out trying to be- Funny? Not even just funny. I know enough to know that's a mistake and just embarrassing and the audience hates it.

But I came out just high energy and then I got tired and then the last 20 minutes they asked me the real questions they were there to ask me. And you already spent? Yeah, I was spent and my energy was down so I was being like honest. Oh, yeah. You got that tone. Let me tell you something.

And being honest is not necessarily conducive to a career nowadays. You got to be careful about. Oh, really? I think so. I think you got to be careful what you divulge. I think people nowadays, especially if they don't know you, like they kind of get to know us, the people I'm working with now. They know me.

They know you. Yeah. You're spoken for, quantity. Right. You make i'm working with now they know me they know you yeah you're you're spoken for quantity right you make sense people get they know what they're coming for yeah with new folks yeah i feel like you're kind of listening for a reason to cut it off sometimes i think there's so much stuff to look at there's so many podcasts and videos and everything so the minute somebody says something that you're like i don't really i'm not really feeling really then then i think people go all right that's my opinion about that person well what was oh I see you're saying but like what like what was it that like honest about like so you're there I was I was honest I was you know look I had a

really traumatic development process at HBO before we had our current shows I thought you're gonna say childhood I was like where we go let's go let's go and now it's just an HBO trauma? We can get the childhood trauma too. We can talk about all of it. You got PTSD from your HBO experience? I got a little PTSD from the HBO experience. They ordered us to start a series

after four years of working on it. Which one was that? This is Brothers in Atlanta. Oh yeah, right. They ordered it to series and then we had a writing room. We were doing all this stuff and then... So you're all set up. You set up shop. You're making a show. We're literally in this beautiful office.

Oh, yeah. In Sherman Oaks. Oh, yeah. We're there late at night. You won, man. We're doing playing the darts. Oh, no. We told our grandmothers.

We sent them the- You're in show business now. I made it. Yeah. Baby, I made it. It was hard, but it wasn't even excruciating. Right. And then a couple months later, there was just some... We could tell from the beginning

that we weren't on the same page with them about the content. What was the show? It was a half hour comedy about two guys who go to Atlanta to sing backup. And then he's such a... His life is in shambles, so he decides just to stay. And it's in current time. Oh, yeah. Modern Maya Rudolph was in it playing this really funny over-the-top R&B singer who my character was a background singer for.

Like her mom. Like her mom. It was really nice for her. She was actually excited to get to play a character like that because she doesn't really usually get to play that. And so we did it, and we were excited. And then the article, and we told our friends, and we were like, ha-ha! And then it wasn't even like a fun quick death.

It was like a slow, drawn out, nine month, no phone calls being returned, turning in drafts, not hearing notes for two weeks. And it's just like that slow glacial death. That slow Hollywood. Like you don't know what's going on. No one's really telling you. No, you don't know anything. And then one day you show up at work and they're like, oh, you didn't hear?

Well, you know, it's almost like everybody in town always hears before you, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's like you get a call from your agent like, hey, how you doing? Yeah. You're like, why the fuck are you calling me with that tone? Why are you calling me with the something is terrible tone? And that was it? It went away?

They didn't even call us. They called our director and he called us and said, look, you know, the best part of it is we were developing it. The head of the network at that time. Who was that? Mike Lombardo. He says, he goes like, hey, man, this is really young and really black and really fresh and I don't even get this. And that's what I love. I love it because I don't get it.

And we were like, hell yeah, motherfucker, you don't get it. And then when the guy called us to say they were going to not do the show, he's like, yeah, he just said he didn't get it. And that was it? That was it. That was game over for me. That was like my best Hollywood education. I mean, you got paid a bit, right?

I didn't want the money. They gave us a little bit. By the way, it was not a lot. They gave us a little bit of like, sorry, we fucked you over money. Right. I'm prideful. Right. Like an idiot.

So I told my agent, I was like, I don't want that fucking money. Fuck them. Take their money and shove it up their ass. Really? Yeah, I did. But then my agent is smarter than me. And so two months later.

He did not tell them that. She did not, Nancy. Two months later, she goes like, hey, so I still got that check here. When have you? And I was like, yeah,

we should probably take that. I should probably take that money. It's like, it's one of those things where it's like, whatever pride you may feel, you're not going to teach anybody a lesson there. You know, you're-

I watch too much TV. I'm always like, oh, in 30 minutes, this is going to work itself out. It's like, no, it's not. This is going to be bad. Sometimes in life as a grownup, shit is just bad. And it just, and then that's the end of that storyline. That just ends bad. Yeah.

Yeah. It didn't work out. No. Yeah. That's the thing. It's like when people say, I had a moment with an editor once from a book I wrote. Yeah. Where I was nervous about whether, because it was coming out at a weird time.

It was just after 9-11. I'm like, are we sure this is a good time to launch? Well, it was already on the books. It was going to happen. And I wasn't expecting a lot. But I don't remember what I was talking to him about. And I just said, but it's going to be OK, right? He goes okay right he goes yeah or it won't yeah and it's just like that one added sentence yeah they of course that's the other option yeah and a lot of times it isn't and it's

the best way to fuck it you know this whole like it's gonna be okay bullshit it's like believing in magic it is like believing in magic and then the other thing that's bad is like you know for me I put so much of my like personal joy into that show oh yeah and then and then the other thing that's bad is like you know for me i put so much of my like personal joy into that show oh yeah and then that was the other lesson is like you can't do that you really have to like and it's hard not to because you can't even get anything to go forward unless you're so passionate about it that you're willing to talk about it right all day every day to a million people yeah but of course you also have to be this can i tell you a messed up analogy yeah so there's this thing.

What am I going to say, no? No, please. I don't want any analogies. We don't want a controversy on this. No, whatever. Welcome to the analogy free zone. Everything is direct. Yeah. No, what I was going to say,

by the way, this is fucking badass. Which one? This reminds me of my dad. Oh, he had knives? Yeah, I feel like when I, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and I always feel like older men always had this.

Yeah, buck knife. Some kind of buck knife. I don't know, we live in Chicago. I don't know what the fuck he uses for. Yeah, who knows? Like, but they're around. Yeah, we had knives. My dad was into knives.

I don't, yeah. What did he use it for? I just have it out there so people pick it up and say things about it. Okay. All right. Well, you know what? Mission accomplished. Your dad had one of those.

Hell yeah, yeah, one of those. I was going to say really quickly though but the analogy the analogy man is i was reading this story about um slavery which is uh uh obviously something that is a charged topic and uh but no slave mothers actually used to not name or be affectionate with their kids really because they didn't know if the kid was going to get shipped away. And so they would purposefully... This is once they were here. Once they had the baby, they would purposefully distance themselves

because it was just too excruciating to give the amount of love that a normal mother intends to give and then to be like, oh, by the way, that baby that you love, it's in Ohio. Yeah, yeah. And you're still stuck here in Mississippi

and you're like, God damn. So i say that terrible analogy to say that unfortunately i think in our business that mentality can keep you sane sadly oh to be able to keep some distance from the things you love because you just don't know some executive somewhere right like eh i don't get this right well that's true i you know i mean it's obviously a little different, but I think there is some- Oh, yes. It's a lot different, but at its core- Yeah. Emotions.

It's the emotional connection. The emotional connection. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. Because you have to engage that part where it's like, well, this is a business. Yeah. This is a job.

Yeah. I am a creative person. Right. And I know I put a lot into this but you know you once you put it into the world of the of the the machine yes then the machine all of a sudden has power and decisions and that's that that's it and there's you can fight your fight but that's why i'm always hesitant about like getting involved with movies like you know independent directors i talk to them like sure there's part of me that wants to direct a movie write a movie and direct

a movie but then you talk to these people it's like i put six years in yeah and uh we did festivals and now uh you know you i think you can get it on hulu it's vimeo i'm seeing you on like i'm gonna go to vimeo on a tuesday morning and type all this shit in real quick hold on let me it's my life's work that's where it it ended up. It's discouraging. It is. You know, so I'm sort of like, I'll just keep it immediate. But so you felt bad on the radio show for talking about the business in a way that you were disappointed. I felt bad for, I didn't feel bad. That's a lie.

The truth is I didn't feel bad at all. But I felt like we have worked so hard to get to a point where we can show our work. You and Diallo? Me and Diallo. Yeah. Because at some point, you just want people to see it you just want to be able to say you know what i did all this stuff i just want people to look at it let me you know let me know what what people think about it and you you know imagine you know i always liken what happened to me at hbo to being like at college for

four years yeah we were there for four years yeah and then the day of graduation, you're like getting ready to graduate. Yeah. And somebody from the school's like, all right, man, you can get out of here. And you're like, well, the graduation's today. And they go, all right, well, you can leave. Yeah. I don't get to go to the ceremony and get to, like, nah, no, but you can get. But hey, it's been fun for a year.

Yeah. And so there's just like this weird anticlimax. Sure. And you just have to live in that. Yeah. There's no ladders out there's no doorway out there's no like you know rope ladder down into the well yeah you're just like you're just there and all you have is your loved ones the people who you really learn who cares and

you have a couple of scripts you have a couple of scripts and you kind of look at them angrily like you're like i don't even want to four years though i mean that's not nothing so but but the writing room wasn't up for four years. The writing room was up for like four months. Yeah, right. So like you went. That's camaraderie. No, you went through the whole development process.

I've had deals before. And I've made, you know, I had deals where I wrote scripts with guys. And they didn't get shot. You know, but like. When they announce it, it's going to air, though. No, no, that's bad, dude. I'm not trying to compare. I'm just trying to make you feel better.

It's a heartbreaking business, man. And like it never ends it doesn't end does it i thought i was watching the only time when it ends and it's okay is when you got money saved and you're like all right that's gone yeah let's move on that's kind of how i think about this whole this whole business at some point is like you know i'm gonna keep doing the thing because i love it um but i also i really gotta start looking at it as like a you know, I'm going to keep doing the thing because I love it. But I also, I really got to start looking at it as like a, you know. A business. A business. Are we getting money from this?

Are we getting money from this? Right. Sucks because I don't want to think of it that way. I want to think of it as like this beautiful, artistic, Picasso-esque life where I just sort of traipse around America creating content. Well, yeah. Being fed it. Yeah.

Is that not going to happen? No, no. It sure can happen. Even if it happens, it's probably for a short while. No, that can happen, but there's not a lot of money in that one. No, it's not. I lived that life for years as a comic, just me and my little notepad. Yeah.

But I was bitter and I was miserable. I never got in it for the bread either. I mean, I got in it because I thought I had something to say and I think I'd still do. Same. And it didn't really work out. The regular channels, the show business didn't work out for me. It wasn't until I set mics up in my garage that everything changed. Ain't that the way?

Yeah, I guess, but I didn't know it was the way. I just didn't want to kill myself. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, I got to do something. It's like you're trapped in this passion and then you hear- And there's no way out. There's no way out.

You can't because if you're a pride prideful guy yeah there's no quitting dude i mean it's oh i mean you're in this but you know you seem to like you're doing you write you produce you act i mean you've given yourself a lot of options i have for me i was just a comic and i mean i never wanted to write for anybody so i was kind of limited and i knew that but too late i like, if I was a grown-up person and not a fuck-you person, I would have figured out how to work with other people when I was 25. Yeah, that's true. I feel I've really, to that point, I think the other, speaking of things that I don't bring to the table. I think America needs to know what I don't bring to the table.

I think they've been waiting. I don't do, everybody's like, what does he not bring to the table? This is where it's going to get good. Honey, you got to check this clock. Come in here. Listen, take the apron off,

sit down. Listen, I was a 50s household. Yeah. So I was just going to say that. Glad you caught that one. Well, I think America needs to know.

What do you not bring to the table? I don't like the mingling at the parties, at the Hollywood parties. And I feel like it's so important to our business that when you go to those fucking parties, I've seen you at a few. Yeah, I do. You got to talk. Well, yeah. I mean, you know.

But I think you got to go up to the people and small talk them. And I don't enjoy it. No, it's terrible. Because a lot of times like- But people who do that, I think their careers are better off sometimes. It's most of the business, man. It is one of the problems in a way,

but it's most of the business. Like if they remember you like, oh, that's that guy. I like that guy. He's a good guy. Yeah, bring him in. You know what, let's not kill this project. Yeah. Because it's that level of whim.

It can be. I think it is. Yeah, because it's like the money's not the same. No. The risk is different now. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. But I don't like going.

See, once I get there, I'm okay. Once I get there and someone's like, Mark, and I'm like, hey, I can lock in. But the actual, am I going to go or not? Yeah. I don't want to fucking go. I remember, actually, you know again i i tell you that our our death at hbo was glacial yeah so i remember one time there was another party we had to go to and this is after after the death as we were dying as you know as i for an hbo thing

william faulkner as i lay dying yeah this they were like hey come to this thing yeah and of course i was like talk to my agent i was like oh should i i mean i'm so sad all the time i don't even want to go clearly the shows she's like oh just go you never know you got to talk to people it's part And of course, I was like, talked to my agent. I was like, oh, should I? I mean, I'm so sad all the time. I don't even want to go. Clearly the show's, she's like, oh, just go. You never know. You got to talk to people. It's part of the business. And I'll never forget.

I was getting it. I was in my room putting on my clothes and I just started weeping. And then my wife came in. She's like, what's up? And I was like, we got to go to this party. Weeping in your nice clothes? Weeping in the tuxedo on the way to a party. And I was like, this is not as advertised, Hollywood.

It's not supposed to be this way. Did you stop crying once you got there? Like right before we got out of the car. And then I just wiped my eyes and went out there with a big smile on my face. That's it. There you go. Show business. You gotta learn how to eat crow in this business. And I think that is one of the things I've had to do a lot of, which I'm proud of, is that you do have to learn how to eat crow.

Well, I mean, where'd you do have to learn how to eat crow. Where'd you grow up? Southside of Chicago. 83rd and Halstead, 72nd and Constance. For real, for real. The whole journey. I remember, yeah. It's interesting because I feel like the city, you know, we have a show about it,

but I feel like the city I think it's slightly better now than it was even a couple years ago. I feel like it was, there were some rough spots when I was growing up, and I think it's slightly better now than it was even a couple years ago oh yeah i feel like it was there were some rough spots when i was growing up and i think it got worse were you involved with any like because i've talked to cats who were like there's a few guys deon cole love him uh uh little rel howard on our show too yeah like those are all chicago guys that's right yeah that's right and i've talked to like i And I've talked to them about coming up in that zone.

Yeah. They're very different. Like, Dion is sort of like a nerdier guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Will Rell is like, you know, he was in it. Well, he's a West Side guy, too. Right. He has a South Side.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I know Rell's from the West Side. What's the difference? I don't know Chicago. You know what it is? I only know the part of Chicago where I eat pizza and I have a nice time. Exactly.

Like a lot of people do. Those restaurants weren't in my neighborhood. I've heard there's a bad part. You know, I don't even want to call it that. No, I don't either. I felt bad for saying it just then. No, it's cool, man. America's got to know the truth, guys.

Yeah, it's not bad. You know what it is? I heard this one time, and I think it's so true. It's like the south side of Chicago is a place with hundreds of thousands, millions of great people, and about a thousand assholes. Yeah. And if you look at actually who is causing the problems, who's the one that is making it unsafe?

I feel that way about the whole country. It's a small amount of people. I feel that way about the whole country in the sense that, yeah, there's mostly good people, but there's these horrible assholes. But they have friends and family that believe the same thing they do. They do. And that brings the number up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's mostly good people, but there's these horrible assholes. But they have friends and family that believe the same thing they do. They do. And that brings the number up. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the sort of live and let live vibe that I think is so valuable is people don't feel that way. Like, I always say, like, I'm not even on Twitter or any of that stuff. Really? Can't take it? Well, I mean, at some point I'm like, well, I have 2,000 followers. Does anybody care what I'm saying? Like, come on.

Right. And it doesn't really matter. But also, two things. I found myself looking at it for every, I would say for 10 minutes every hour, every hour for the whole day. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't think I'm getting anything out of this. I don't know if this is improving my life at all, looking at these pictures that somebody

took all this time taking for one eighth of a second. Have you, like, I go on there. I don't really tweet that much because I don't want if this is improving my life at all, looking at these pictures that somebody took all this time taking for one-eighth of a second. Have you, like, I go on there. I don't really tweet that much because I don't want to fight with. I think you kind of have to be on at this point. Well, I guess, but, you know, I only, I got to a point, like, after Trump got elected, where I'm not going to engage with these fucking, you know, Jew-hating monsters, you know, over politics with, you know, two followers, because I get triggered real easy. So, like, I just pulled out.

Smart. And I pulled out because it's like, you know because it's not going to be funny for a while. And then once I did that, eventually I'm like, what do I need to do this at all for? And occasionally I'll have these little flurries, but I'll always go check because I'm on there. You want to see who liked it. Yeah, right, or what people are saying.

And also you have to learn how to take the hits from the trolls, the troll hits. It's like this weird thing that sensitive people have to learn how to acclimate to. It's like, okay, that hurt. Yeah. Don't engage with it and move on. It'll pass. Yeah.

I mean, for me, I'm always like, do people know that there's such a thing as an unexpressed opinion? Like that's a thing. Not anymore. Why should they? But I think that's a lost art. I think it's a lost art for fucking fucking sure it is yeah i don't know why you need me to know how you feel like i don't need

to know how you feel and guess what i'm not gonna tell you how i feel and not even know it's not i don't even know who you are you don't even have a name it's like i've actually said and i and i'm kind of regretted i'm like maybe it's not great that everyone has a voice that It's true. It's so true. Everybody now is like the star of their own show and the most important person in their own, which I think was always the case with human beings. But I do think that social media. But at least before it was delusional. Yeah, it was. Now it's like active.

Yeah. It's out in the world. People really do feel like, you know, I've seen guys online with like 27 followers being like, yo, man, you know, I'm sad. I got to clear some things up. I like no you don't you don't have to clear anything up nobody no one gives a shit it's not like he has a top story in the news like hey man why don't you just call the 20 Deontay Jones from Memphis man y'all heard about what happened at that party right but he's gonna be on today so clear that up for us guys we're gonna get some answers from dionte and it just feels like what an odd time

that's a funny i never i never expected i know man i i envy stand-ups because i've always admired it and i've never been once you try it it's time uh it is time yeah i there's you know it's funny there's a little small club in uh sherman oaks it's called the oyster bar yeah and they just have really bad stand-up oh they, they got like a weekly thing? A weekly open mic. Yeah. And I'm like, perfect. That's right.

Yeah, no one knows. Yeah, nobody knows. Just slip in. And of course, I told some people, I'm like, oh, we're going to tell people. I'm like, don't do that shit. Yeah. Don't tell people. Don't tell people.

So now, how many, like the South Side of Chicago. South Side of Chicago. Yeah, I grew up there. How many brothers and sisters? Well, there were six of us who grew up together. Yeah. There are eight of us total. My parents, my dad is originally from Panama.

Really? Yeah. Came to America. His father came over, you know, one of these typical immigrants, super duper smart, had to come over here and work in a parking garage or something. His dad, your grandfather. My grandfather. Yeah.

He brought over the first three kids, my wife, but they had six. So my dad was part of the three that got left in Panama for like, I think, a couple years, which is traumatic. Then they came over. Then they came to the south side of Chicago because every immigrant picks a place where other immigrants are. They're starting to figure this thing out in America. They came over. And south side of Chicago, luckily they were black, even though they were Latin. So they kind of blended in until they spoke.

And then people were like, you don't sound right my man where you from brother and I've even heard my dad say this when we were out even when I was an adult someone said where you accent from

he's all from the south I'm like man you're from South America like don't pretend so but they came over and then he went to college met my mom

Southern Illinois University she's from west side of Chicago and then they converted to Islam in 1971 met my mom, Southern Illinois University. She's from the west side of Chicago. And then they converted to Islam in 1971, 72. I was born in 76. So they're like the first wave. The very first wave of the movie Malcolm X.

They were in there. My parents were in there. But then there was a split in 76 where some people stayed with Farrakhan and stayed with the idea of black nationalism. And then my parents, this other guy, Elijah Muhammad's son, Wallace Muhammad, where some people stayed with Farrakhan and stayed with the idea of black nationalism. And then my parents, this other guy, Elijah Muhammad's son, Wallace Muhammad, said, no, no, we got to be more mainstream. They actually, believe it or not, I actually grew up being taught that Farrakhan was like a demagogue because of how my parents had been there and been like,

no, no, we don't do racism. They saw it happen. They were there for the whole thing. But what really happened was that Elijah Muhammad passed, and so there was a split, like all things. Whenever there's a lot of power, important person leaves. Now we got to figure out who really has the power. So you come from the school of American Muslim thought. I come from a school where my dad- It's for everybody. It's for everybody. When I was growing up, and I kind of appreciated it because we were Muslim,

so we were like outside the mainstream. And I think it was kind of cool that i got a sort of um an education on how to not be part of the crowd right like that was really healthy healthy and i think you know even with my own children i'm trying to be like that way so you got to really learn how to think on the outside so that you're not ever swept up in yeah group think yeah and also so you know and also so you can know who you are when groupthink starts to creep in exactly i mean that's what i try to tell people just in general it's like it's happening man oh yeah nobody believes it yeah and it's like you know you better know who the fuck you are and what you stand for and what your real values are because people are going to

start buckling to the fear and you know whether or not they're going to wear the hats uh that that that might not be the issue but they're definitely not going to not they're going to wear the hats uh that that might not be the issue but they're definitely not going to they're not going to get your back no no it's interesting i i always assumed when i was in uh in college in 1998 there was this idea that we were at the end of history this is like the bill clinton era right well you know the superpowers are kind of settled and everybody kind of knows what the alliances are globalism is intact globalism is are we at the end of history and then i think knows what the alliances are. Globalism is intact. Globalism is, are we at the end of history?

And then I think that's one of the best lessons about life is that you don't know anything. Just wait. Yeah. Too many thinkers. Wild, crazy shit could happen any second. Sure. Yeah. Look at the history of humans. Whatever intellectual concept you're toying with in your fucking brain,

you still got to deal with incomprehensible, crazy humans. Who you don't know and who have ideas that aren't the same as yours. Yeah, and if they get enough people on board with certain ideas, they kill their neighbors. That's interesting. One of the reasons that I am not religious anymore is as I was growing up, just naturally, because luckily my mom was very much a, she was a very big independent thinker. She constantly, constantly, constantly pushed us to think for ourselves. Yeah. And as I got older, I was a very big independent thinker. She constantly, constantly, constantly pushed us to think for ourselves.

And as I got older, I was just like, wait a second, so we're in this religion, but you're telling me if somebody was born just in a different part of the universe, then they're wrong and going to hell. And even then, my brain was like, that doesn't make any, that doesn't make no sense. What's the point then? Why even bother doing anything if it's a roll of the dice

right and you might be wrong and thank god we happen to be right and then i was like but everybody feels like they're right and this is i was like 11 12 years old that's a good one to have then and then my mom was like yeah you're right you know there was no my dad was like no no brother you should read this book some more i was like okay my mom was like you're right you should she actually god bless her she gave my first taste of alcohol growing up too. Oh yeah. I'm just putting her on blast. That was a good thing? We were at a wedding.

It was beautiful. I got to tell you, it was one of the best things, it's one of the best things in the world where there's this thing. It's weird because in an alcoholic's life, that's not the great part of the story. Well luckily, my battle with alcoholism

was much later, so thank God. But my mom, we were at a wedding and she had this little, there was a bottle cap. Yeah. She poured a little bit of champagne into it. She said, you want to taste this? was like hell yeah i want to taste that mom my brothers and i passed it around we're like oh this is weird yeah she's like well that's what

that is and it was kind of cool that like she was introducing us to the world right that we had been sort of told was was you know like almost like an omelet because you can't drink can't drink can't eat pork yeah celebrate christmas right and your neighbors worship the wrong god right you know and all this stuff this is like you know but I will say one thing my dad always said growing up which I always appreciated he was like you know this is the best country to be a Muslim right is America because this is the only country where anybody who has any religion can can practice it the way they want to we don't have a government enforcing, being like, oh, the address is too short.

You're going to go spend a day and a half in an education center or something like that. Yeah, well, that seems to be happening. That's all changing. So you were in the glory days. My dad was wrong, man. No, he was right for the time. At that time?

Yeah, yeah. The question is, how bad is, how do you think it can get to that point? You believe so? It's not a good day to ask me. Thought police, morality police. They don't need to have those because we already have them inside of us. People are doing it for the government.

Yeah, absolutely. That, you know, now when you have this type of divisiveness, there's plenty of workplaces in certain parts of this country where people are already afraid to talk about their beliefs or about what they think is right or wrong. And rightfully so because they will get told on. They'll get told on or they'll be exiled or, I mean, not always fired, but it's not going to be a comfortable work environment. No, it won't.

So isn't that the same as the thought police? You know, it's a slippery slope. It's like the thought police is people, like I you know dionte in memphis policing himself right on the social media for fear of yeah i just don't think all those yeah those those those i don't think all those uh the infrastructure of authoritarianism in the culture we live in now because of how powerful the media is you know you can it just going to be yourself. It's going to be already in there. The, the, the notion of what, what is true and isn't has already been, you know, kind of just hazed or, or, you know, now that's, that's not, it's not solid.

Right. So that means it's fucking wide open for whack jobs. Yeah. I saw something yesterday. This woman said, you know, you, we, we were all taught growing up that, uh, I saw this on Reddit. She was like, we're taught, we're growing up that the source of ignorance is a lack of information. And she was like, that's wrong.

Yeah. We have so much information now that people can pick and choose which facts they follow. Right. And that is an incredible moment that I never would have saw coming in history, that you can literally have two people, and you're watching them talk on TV, and you're going, you guys are operating on different sets of facts.

And also, once you enact, once you sort of embolden, you know, nut jobs who have an ideology, like, you know, all these, like, shootings, right? They happen in all these different places. So by not engaging any sort of gun control laws and you have a president and a cultural momentum that is sort of inflaming nut jobs, it's like it's all done for them. You don't need to put any kind of like weird, you know, Gestapo out there to keep people in their homes. You know, people are just.

People are self Gestapo-ing. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm not going to go to that fucking rock show. What a, what a, you know.

I'm sorry. No, I just wish it was a better time. I wanted to be more fun. It is. Yeah. It's a bad day for this. For me,

in my head. I tell you, I read an email because my wife and I were looking to buy but we still ran and I had an email from my landlord this morning

and I was like, I should not have read this before I came here. It fucked my head up. The long and short of it is that there was a home repair that wasn't getting done and so we finally did it

and of course now the shit's hit the fan of like, you guys weren't supposed to fix that thing and so it's like that. And yeah, it's one of those things where like,

we were like, okay, so clearly we should just buy a house because if we're going to deal with this, we might as well just be the ones on the hook for it. You did the work. Did all the work. Did it well too, really nice. And now she's like, no, I'm not paying for that. So it is what it is. I just had to say that, like you said this morning,

I was like, you know, you see certain things. Oh yeah, it just fucked you. I'm very sensitive. Me too. And I'm like, you know, you see certain things. Oh, yeah, it just fucks you. I'm very sensitive. Me too. And I'm like, I don't want to, I'll tell people like, no, you can't do that right now because that's going to fuck up my whole day. And I don't want you to fuck my day up right now.

I'm trying to be in a good mood. You know what I mean? Yeah, the mood killer is the thing you have in your hand all the time. Yeah. I can, with one movement of my thumb, I can destroy my whole sense of well-being. I'll see an article and I'm like, don't read this.

Don't. Don't fucking read this shit. Because you're going to know how you feel about this shit as soon as you read it. You're going to be mad. And you're going to, like a lot of people nowadays, spend a lot of time in the shower having fake arguments with people you're not really talking to. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Making incredible points.

Yeah, yeah. And having room for the people to applaud your erudition, right? Yeah, right. But really, people try that shit online and get destroyed. And you're yelling at that guy in Memphis. I'm yelling at him, man. Because he shouldn't have did that shit, bro. I was fucked up, Deontay.

Deontay. You're right. Hey, man, that's where the clisps and things up. So what was it? So is that how you got the name? Chicago. What, Bashir? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the name comes from. What kind of name is your last name? Is it all Arabic? It's all Arabic. It's made up? Well, it's not made up. It's Arabic.

No, I get it, but I mean, that was your dad's real name? No, my dad's... Brother, what you mean real? You mean a slave name? You saw Malcolm X. Come on, man. I'm sorry. No, no.

My dad's original last name from his slave masters was Boyce. And then before that, it was Gaskin. Here's what I think was cool. He and my uncle both became Muslim at the same time. And they picked a new name, which is that one, Salahuddin, for the whole family. So they were like, we're just gonna do this whole new thing. Kind of like, you know, you just change

the whole family name. And they did. And then they were like, we want to make sure that at every educational level, these kids have problems. And they made sure that every substitute teacher every every every school i went to yeah man what kind of name is that yeah you know yeah but but like i kind of i don't see that as traumatizing i see it as empowering sure because it helped me sharpen my own sense of humor and it helped me get some thick skin which i I think is kind of necessary. People don't really have that anymore. But weren't there other Muslim families?

You know, for a long time, we were at the Muslim school. Right. But then after sixth grade, that ended. We had to go to – because the school only went up to sixth. Oh, yeah. So you had to take your name and go into the real world. We had to take our name and go to that public school with them public school kids. And you'd get in there and sit down.

It feels like that first day at Shawshank. You know what I'm saying? You're just like, hey, what's up, man? Hey, look at this guy. You're like, uh-oh. But I will say another misconception about growing up in the hood is, you know, when I grew up there,

there were actually guys who would protect the smart kids. Don't touch that kid. Oh, yeah? Leave that kid alone. Absolutely. There were like OGs, like gangsters, like killers who were like, don't touch this kid. He might get out of here. Yeah, exactly. Don't bother those kids. So, you know, there was really a distinction. And I think unfortunately, like for example,

what happened in Chicago, a lot of those guys were killed or put in jail. I think one of the reasons the violence in Chicago had increased is because there was no more, there was no more mentorship. I mean, it sounds terrible to say that, but there were no more OGs keeping the young boys in line. So now you could have a group of young guys on the block just start calling themselves a gang. There was nobody to give them the proper orientation. Of how this works.

The rules of the road, none of that stuff. And then the next block over, you have kids calling themselves the very same gang. Yeah. They kill each other. Yeah. And it's all obviously based around economic opportunity. There's just such a lack of some time.

But you saw that growing up? Absolutely. Yeah. I remember being on a bus on 79th Street. Because I'm a naive kid and a nerd. And we were going, and I just hear pop, pop, pop, pop. And everybody on the bus hit the deck. Yeah.

And I'm looking around, and some person's like, get your ass down. Because I was looking around like, what was that? Because I'm naive. I never heard that before. I was new. I was, I think this was sophomore,

freshman year of high school, so I must have been 14, 15. And it was like eye-opening because I was like, damn, I could have been going just like that. Didn't even occur to me. It's not even aimed at you no it rarely is

usually unfortunately a lot of times when you read about Chicago it is like you know they're aiming at this other person right and then oh but there's a mother and a child walking through and so in that room over there that's the scariest one somebody like you know some poor woman at home just trying to watch Jeopardy

and then something comes through the window and it's just like, well, what the fuck? But then I was thinking like, you know, because I want to stay in this morbid place.

Yeah. Then I was thinking like, when I was living in New York, there was this poor guy. He was literally walking through Central Park. A tree branch fell and killed him. Yeah.

And I just said, well, shit. Yeah. This guy's probably living on the Upper East Side. Yeah. He's probably on the phone with like you know the guy who's gonna get him mets tickets yeah and being like these aren't good enough yeah tree tree branch so yeah bad timing yeah it's a little different yeah there was once again it's a lot different but it is it does tell you that no but there's no you know you can't really be safe on this planet. Right. I mean, we kind of all live under this sort of expectation that at any moment.

It's kind of random. Yeah. I mean, you can do things. That makes it more exciting, right? A little bit. I guess. But I mean, you can do things to, you know, sort of insulate yourself. I mean, that's sort of the idea of, you know, shifting the quality of work, why people live

in certain communities or don't do certain activities. Yeah. You know, is to lessen the possibility i think it's a terrible way to live yeah i guess but i mean you know we all kind of do it you know like i'm not gonna go rock wall climbing i'm too old for that shit this guy's way older than you who do that shit though yeah i know but they know there's also guys way older than me that fall down and break their fucking necks yeah and they're in it but no that's not a tree branch because everyone's like well he's a fucking idiot.

He's 70. Maybe he shouldn't have done that. He shouldn't have been walking in his house, I guess. Well, I mean, walking in your house is different. If that happens to you- That happens all the time with the hips. Oh, with the hips. Yeah. The number one cause of hip replacements is household stairs.

I'm scared of these. I got some fucking stairs. You got some, yeah. I keep looking at them. Those are going to be my demise. I think the cats are going to save you. You're going to be- Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. They're going to be real helpful. They're going to be helpful at minds. I think the cats are going to save you. Oh, yeah, sure.

Yeah, they're going to be real helpful. They're going to be helpful at all. They're having trouble with their hips. They're both 15. Oh, man, good for you. A couple of them are old-ass cats, and then the black one is young. Yeah, yeah. A buster.

You got to have a young black cat around. Yeah, yeah, you got to. Yeah, keep things lively. Exactly. With his jazz music. Exactly. His reefer cigarettes. Exactly.

All right, so you're there. Yeah. And what do you, now you said you got- Born and raised in Chicago. But there's six of you? Well, there's four boys and two girls. There's a religious family. My growing up on the south side of Chicago, dad was an airplane mechanic.

Oh, really? Yep. It was kind of cool. At O'Hare? At Midway. Oh. This was before. Actually, no, Midway's still there. Oh, really? Yep. It was kind of cool. At O'Hare? At Midway. Oh, yeah. Actually, no, Midway's still there. Yeah, it is still there.

But before, it was Midway Airlines as well. Right. I remember that. It used to be literally an airline, and we would go, and I'll never forget it, that it was all these pretty stewardesses who would flirt with my dad in front of my mom, and she'd just be like, these bitches ain't shit. Yeah. And I'll never forget that growing up, because they had no respect.

And I was like, man, the 80s is cool. And we would just fly all over America. Did you guys? We flew everywhere. Standby. We had to dress up. Yeah. Five black kids in the airport in little suits and ties and dresses.

Because if the airline employees take their family on a standby trip, they have to represent the airline. Right. And so we were really well behaved. Yeah. But I do think that I do cherish that growing up. We really traveled all over. Oh, you were afforded that luxury because your old man-

I was afforded because my old man used to fix airplanes. Yeah. And he wanted to travel. Love traveling. Love traveling. Are they still around? My parents? Yeah.

My dad is remarried. He's in Arizona. He has two new kids. Yeah. He has his youngest son has my same birthday. So I was like, oh, you're trying to replace me? What the fuck? He did replace you.

He did replace me, yeah. He replaced all of you. He did. Two new kids. And a new wife. He got to do everything. Yeah. He started over.

And then my mom still lives in Chicago. I just saw her a couple of days ago. How's she doing? She's doing good. She's in all my stuff. Yeah. She, you know, I constantly pick her brain for ideas. She's the reason I have a sense of humor.

You know, she's one of the most creative people. When did they split up? They broke up around the year 2000. So they were together like 25, 26 years. Oh, so you're pretty grown. I was grown. Yeah. I was grown.

I just felt like helpless because I was in LA, poor. Yeah. A PA at Warner Brothers. They were having a really messy divorce yeah and I just felt so helpless and it's one of those things where

I think that young adult time is is really helpless because you don't have any money and yet you sort of physically and emotionally know yeah that

that there should be some way to be helpful and there's no way to be helpful yeah in that situation it's like then you just like

do you pick sides who you're gonna talk yeah hell yeah I picked a side. I was on her side. Yeah. It was easy. Me too. I was surprised.

It took so long to break up. I was like, yeah, I should have broke up much earlier. Oh, this fucking fighting. This is too much. People don't behave like this. Your parents were like,

what? No, my parents were like, I was like in my 30s and I knew what side I would pick. How'd you feel about it? Well, it's hard because I had to decide who to live with and,

you know. The parents were like, FY. They share time. This is your fault. No, I mean- That's why people always, when I see these guys on the news being like, man, I didn't grow up with my father. I'd be like, you know what?

Maybe you got off easy. Sometimes it's good. Not all of us would grow up with him. It wasn't like, my dad, here's the thing. I love him today and I honor him. He did some incredible things. He raised six kids. All of us who grew up with him, it wasn't like, my dad, here's the thing, I love him today and I honor him. He did some incredible things. He raised six kids. All of us went to college.

Yeah, traveled. He provided for us. We traveled. We never needed anything in our lives. And his credit, I didn't even have a curfew growing up. Yeah. His whole thing was just don't bring it to me. But he also instilled you with some sort of moral compass.

No, no. Let me tell you, he had us out there every morning on the weekends picking up garbage in the neighborhood, going door to door, trying to be helpful. He definitely forced us to be helpful to our neighbors. To be of service. And to be of service. So to this day, I still get up early in the morning.

Yeah. And I still have this sense of, you know, he's an immigrant, so he's got that immigrant work ethic. Right. And so I still had that. So there's a lot of things where I'm just like, man, this has been so, you know, I'm so lucky. Right. To have that.

But on the other hand, it's like there's a lot of arguing and a lot of instability. And I think that it's not good for kids to see all that. To go through the insanity? I don't think so. No. I think it's better for them to be in two different households and see two people who are really happy and then one household where people are miserable. I think every marriage, you should live in different houses. My wife, oh, I shouldn't even say that.

But the other day, she jokingly brought that up. And then, you know how somebody jokes and then nobody corrects the joke? Right. We were both walking like, if we had enough money, we could do that. She could live on one end of the block. Because, you know, I'll say this. Love is really, and I don't typically talk about my relationship right i always feel like the best way to lose my relationship is to talk about it sure but i'll talk i bring this up to talk about myself right love when you really have it for real it absolutely changes you and you

absolutely learn who you really are right because for years i was single i was in new york i was dating i was traveling. I was like this person, whatever, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. And it's not until you start to say, well, this person is going to matter and this is going to be meaningful that you start to learn all your inadequacies. And I didn't even realize I had an anger problem. Yeah.

My dad had one. I was like, ah, it's him, not me. And then I got in a relationship. I was like, oh no. You didn't have a lot of crying women in your life? No. him not me and then I got in a relationship I was like oh no you didn't have a lot of crying women in your life no I had a lot of of neglected women I had a lot of people who would like write me letters and be like you know I came to New York to see you yeah I hung out for an hour your piece like that kind of stuff oh so you weren't a rager no no no just a simmering anger why would I but I know I never even got mad. Why would I get mad?

There was no stakes. Huh. There was zero stakes. It was like, I don't care. Do what you got to do. Yeah. It was very like, I don't care. And it wasn't until somebody totally madder that I realized like, oh, I have all this.

And it's, you know, the work continues to this day. Sure, of course. But I felt embarrassed that I had to do that much work to myself in my 30s. I was like, God damn, I am all fucked up. Yeah, I'm 55 and I'm going to therapy in two hours. And I just started again. Yeah. No, it's an ever-evolving process.

But I think that's a good point you make. That when you do finally find yourself in a relationship where it matters, where you want to be your best self. Or just stop yelling. Yeah. And stop sending like three-page text messages. find yourself in a relationship where it matters, where you want to be your best self. Or just stop yelling. Yeah. And stop sending like three page text messages. I literally had to block her on my phone. Before you realized you loved her. So that I wouldn't text her a fucked up thing.

Oh, because she got in there. Because she's in my heart, in my head. And all of a sudden I'm jealous. I didn't know I was a jealous person. Oh yeah. I was never jealous. I didn't give a fuck. Oh dude, it's the worst, man.

When you spend your life with this kind of emotional disposition that gets you through. Yeah. But then when somebody gets in there, then all of a sudden the whole structure starts to shake. Oh, the whole thing falls apart. Yeah. It was like a house of cards. And it wasn't even like, well, I'm like, well, she's never going to see me cry. Check that off the list. She's never going gonna see me raise my voice at a party check that off the list

and god bless my wife she was very patient again it's because she would look at me like i was an alien because her family i've been around them they don't they don't encounter each other like that i know you go to these people's houses you go you see these people's families and you're like y'all just sit in the same room all day and just kick it? Yeah, we just sit in the same. You know what it is? I liken it to there are people like I'm very fortunate in that. I used to have trouble sleeping.

It's not another slave analogy, is it? I got three more slave things before we get off here. I have a lot of them. Because you know what it is? Slavery just baffles me because it's so like devastating and it's so incredible and it's so hard to believe and it also kills me because it wasn't that long ago no man it was like kind of recent yeah and and so what i'll say is and i'm gonna you know i'm gonna be a little bit on my uh my my civil rights high horse right here. But I do feel like I'm always heartbroken when I see people disparaging black neighborhoods,

disparaging crime statistics that are in our favor, the amount of incarceration. It's almost like you can't just do that. You can't just go out and sort of like totally and brutally disrupt somebody's entire self being in history, then put them into a system that is designed for their failure. And then when a few succeed despite that, which is incredible, right? And then some other ones do fall victim

to all the traps that are put in place. You go, aha, you fell victim to the trap. And it just seems like for me, like I liken it to like a house, right? If you went to somebody's house and they had all these beautiful kids and the house was gorgeous, like for me like i liken it to like a house yeah right if you went to somebody's house right and they had all these beautiful kids and the house was gorgeous yeah but then there was this one room in the house that was just not taken care of and there's a kid in there who's clearly hadn't bathed

yeah in weeks and then somebody was like hey man how's that house you wouldn't say you know it's an amazing house you'd be like that house looks good on the outside but it's fucked up there's something going on in there yeah that that one thing. And I say that to say that I think that, you know, to me, I'm always heartened when I see people take it upon themselves to go, wait a second, this isn't Southside Chicago's problem. You know, what's in the news now, Baltimore? It's not Baltimore's problem. It's not Queens' problem. It's America's problem. You know, how how do we all fix this thing because our house has a part of it that we should be ashamed of right yeah i agree ashamed of how we treat that and i also think what's important is to really you know not just you know the problem with the amount of information that's coming at us all the

time is there's no real context anymore so i think that what you're saying about really realizing how how it wasn't that long ago and the sort of expansiveness of the horror. Because I went down when I was shooting last year in Birmingham and I went to Montgomery to that museum, to the lynching museum. And I'm just a white guy and I think my head's in the right place but you know to really put it into perspective of of human lives and how widespread it was and just the power of that piece of art and and like i i like it blew my fucking mind america had several speed bumps for black folk we had slavery yeah got past that then there were actually people who pulled themselves up literally by their bootstraps despite the government's promise of 40 acres and a mule, which was not realized. There are people who still pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

And then those people were firebombed by their neighbors and killed. By their neighbors. And the government sometimes too. America's had so many secret race riots, we don't even talk about them. We saw this in the Jack Johnson documentary. He won the world championship. I think it was like 1918 or something. Hundreds of black people around America died. It was like this massive bloodletting because he had dared to

beat the white champ. That all happened. I just shot a movie in North Carolina about black soldiers in 1918 who were part of a terrible race riot and they were just trying to get over to France and fight for this country. And so then that goes. And then that goes away. And then you just see these systemic things. And then you have the war on drugs. And there's like this constant barriers. And I'm always so impressed when I see black folk who've really succeeded despite all that. Because I can tell you, it is a difficult proposition when you don't have a community

there to support you sometimes. Some do. And you don't have the traditional structures. And you're sort of writing your own. Think about this. A lot of black folk are writing their own history from scratch yeah starting in the 70s right not the 60s 50s because that's still sort of fighting just to be able to not be shot on the way to school you have us creating and implementing an entirely new

identity set of values art music and all this revolutionary and new and it comes from our experience but it has to be sort of created on the fly, you know? Right. It's sort of like we have to figure out our own history because there's this gigantic eraser. Yeah. It's erased this sort of lineage. Right.

I mean, I don't even know where I come from. I'm sitting here. I mean, I also haven't done an ancestry test, but I have friends who can be like, oh, yeah, my grandmother's from here, and then her grandmother's from here, and here's my great, great, great, great grandfather and his mule.

You know, I don't have that. You don't? No. Do you want to get it? Eventually. who can be like, oh yeah, my grandmother's from here, and then her grandmother's from here, and then here's my great-great-great-great-grandfather and his mule. Yeah. You know, I don't have that. You don't? No. Do you want to get it? Eventually. Eventually I'll get it. Because yours is probably a little different,

like, because your dad come up through Panama. It might be a slight difference, but, you know, the phrase diaspora refers to everybody who was kind of, like, dropped off on a slave boat. Right. So we were kind of all dropped off at different places. Yeah.

So it might be different. It could be identical to a lot of other people. Right. So were you aware of this, like, your whole life? Yeah. I mean, in terms of what? But you're one of these people that kind of made his way out. A lot of help.

Yeah. Lots of help. But I don't feel like I made it out because when I go back to Chicago, still, you know, one of the reasons we did a show there is because I'm just sick and tired of how the city is presented. Oh, this is the other show. So you've got two things coming out. Yeah, I've got Southside and Sherman Showcase.

Sherman Showcase is a sketch comedy show. Sherman Showcase is a sketch comedy on IFC. That's IFC. That's Wednesdays at 10 o'clock. Yeah. And Southside is same night on Comedy Central at 10.30. So, yeah, the Southside show is really just our chance to sort of say, hey, look, Southside Chicago and Black Chicago is not what you think.

It's a really vibrant place with fun people. Of course. Some of the best comics. Yeah. You know, your Bernie Max, your Robin Harris. God damn. The greatest, yeah. I love Robin Harris.

Sherri Shepherd. there's so many great Dion Cole we were just talking about him D. Ray Davis Laurel Howry D. Ray I like D. Ray D. Ray's hilarious

he is all these great guys come from black Chicago yet when you think of Chicago you don't think like oh black Chicago you don't think oh comedy

right you think like oh I saw that in the news yeah of course there's a vibrant community there right yeah but people don't know about it they don't know about it like I don't think, oh, comedy. Right. You think, oh, I saw that in the news. Yeah, of course there's a vibrant community there. Right, yeah, but people don't know about it. They don't know about it. Like, I don't go visit.

No, you haven't been to the south side of Chicago? I'm not, usually, here's my excuse. I'm never there that long, you know, and I got work to do. Go in, get in, get out. You see what you need to see. I eat my pizza. Eat a couple slices.

I do my thing. I do like it, though. You look to the south side, that looks crazy over there. I don't, if someone took me there, I'd go. Yeah. You know, but I usually, I do like Chicago. I You looked at the South like, that looks crazy over there. I know. If someone took me there, I'd go. Yeah. But I usually, I do like Chicago. I've grown to really love it.

It's definitely, if it's someplace. It's a great town, man. It really is. It definitely doesn't take itself seriously, which I love. The people there, they're just regular ass people, which I love. Well, I do think it's an important perspective to show because you're right in that there is this idea, even people who consider themselves progressive Yeah, you know kind of package it that way in their head like that's problems, right?

Yeah, you know what I mean? There's problems there people are problems. Yeah, look this parts of my beloved city You know where little kids go to school that can only be described as a war zone You know for the amount of violence that they have to pass just to get to class every day. Not to mention evictions. There's a great book called Eviction, which I just read, which really lays out how people getting evicted, not having money, and moving from place to place destabilizes the ability for a village to raise a child.

Kids are always the new kid. There's always new beef. There's always new people. There's always the new kid. Yeah. There's always new beef, there's always new people, there's always people you don't know, there's always a distrust in these neighborhoods. Right. And families are just moving from different place to place following whoever will let them live there. And it's really just that.

And historically, like of your parents' generation, that was one of the strengthening aspects of the community. There was more, I think, I won't speak ill because I don't know the numbers, but there was definitely, when I was growing up, we played on the block all night. Right, right, but everyone knew each other. If your folks were away, they would watch you.

Absolutely, we went across the street to the neighbor's house. Neighbor came over to our house and everybody kind of was like aware that there were certain rules in place. And I think some of that infrastructure has been eradicated. Community infrastructure. Community infrastructure has been eradicated.

So you got to be, you know, how do we do something about that? That's the question that I think about. Well, I mean, and on some level, you know, you think about it, and you wonder, maybe ask yourself, I do as well, like where are the leaders? But there are people that work on a community level, and then there's people like you who's going to make a show showing a different side of that. Yeah. And you've got to hope that helps somewhat.

I think it will. But it seems to be those people that are like at it every day with those kids. Yeah. I think, you know, for me, my, you know, maybe just because our leaders keep getting assassinated in sort of like spectacular fashion. I tend to be against this idea of single leadership. I tend to, you know, like one of the things that I admire about Black Lives Matter is they have a decentralized leadership.

And I think that's really important. Because if you have one human being who's supposed to be the face of something, that person's gonna get tarred, feathered, smeared, destroyed, heaven forbid they're actually just a human being with mistakes and foibles. And like all of us, they have some shortcomings.

That's all gonna to come out. Right. Now the entire movement gets disparaged. Yeah, gets hobbled. Just because this guy likes hookers. You know what I'm saying? Right. Whatever that would be.

Which, you know. Yeah. It happens. Some people like that. People are flawed. People are humans. Yeah. I think that's the thing is like, it's almost like you read the internet every day and there's

this sort of like idealized person that nobody thinks anybody else is living up to. Yeah. And you kind of want to be like, we're all just people, man. Yeah, there's all these like, yeah, there's articles and ads about how you become your best self and all the other articles is what a fuck that guy is.

It's totally, or you'll see even like, you know, like Democrats, for example, will like point out the hypocrisy with say Republican behavior that would be the Bible. But then it's like, well, but we're not even supposed to be using the Bible as our stand. Yeah. Anyway, separation of church and state.

So you're pointing out this guy's a hypocrite, but you're also implying that we should be sort of following the Judeo-Christian point of view. Have this conversation. And it's like, well, what if he's an atheist or a Satanist? Or we shouldn't be even arguing. Why can't we just be rational people concerned about our lives on this planet and taking care of each other?

The way we treat this planet it's very American. The way we treat this planet. I just go like sometimes like man that is just. We just act like we got three Mortys motherfuckers somewhere. Just sitting around waiting to be inhabited. They're hoping we'll adapt I guess or they're just pretending like it's not happening.

You just need better sunscreen, different clothes. Yeah. That's why I was mad about my air conditioner not working earlier. Well, that's the weird kind of Faustian deal we all make. It's like, I know all this shit's not happening, but I'd like to be comfortable. And what's more important,

saving the world or me being comfortable? You know, well, why not both? Okay, yeah, yeah. But really the answer, I think, should be, saving the world or me being comfortable? You know, well, why not both? Okay. Yeah, yeah. But really the answer, I think, should be like saving the world. So what was your, how did you get into the comedy thing? I mean, what was that? Always, man.

Always, you know, when I was a little kid, I used to dress up like a dog. Yeah. Pretend I was the family dog and try to make my family laugh. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Where is that? Had you been there, you'd be dying my family laugh. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Where is that? Had you been there, you'd be dying right now. Yeah, it sounds pretty funny.

Many years later, it's just, what a hot kid. Yeah. But I think even growing up, and I'm sure you felt this too, there's that first moment where you're in a room full of people and they laugh at something you say, 11 or 12, and you're kind of like, oh, that feels really good. Yeah. And so it wasn't comedy.

It was just for me, it was always theater. Uh-huh. I love theater. Really? Oh, my God. I've done so much Shakespeare. Really? So much musical theater.

When was the first time you were exposed to that? High school. First time I was in Hamlet. In high school? I wasn't in Hamlet. I played Claudius. I played the dad. Uh-huh.

And you loved it. I loved it. I was like, this is every day. It's like lush. You get to be on stage. You get to say this wonderful stuff. You essentially use. I was like, this is every day. It's like lush. You get to be on stage. You get to say this wonderful stuff. You essentially use poetry to drive plot, which is incredible. Right.

And it's like learning French and loving French. I mean, for me, it was wonderful. So then in high school, you're like, I'm going to be an actor. I was like, I'm going to be an actor, but I didn't tell nobody because I'm from the hood. Right. And particularly once I was a president of the National Honor Society, I had good grades. You know, you can't be from the hood and have all these accolades and be like, hey, mom and dad, I'm about to go to Hollywood. Yeah.

There's some tears. So I went to college and for three years I did pre-med. Where at? Harvard. That's a good school. That's where I met Diallo, my writing partner. It's a great school. I don't encourage anybody to try to learn calculus in college.

You're not going to be able to do it. You should really do it before. Once that ship has sailed, it's gone. Dude, math in general is like at some point you need to be honest with yourself about are you going to be a math person? And sometimes the answer is no. I'm not. Oh, no.

But you haven't really needed it, have you? No, but I mean, I used to do a joke about that where you can't charm your way through math. No, you can't. Not for me. No. You can't really need it, have you? No, but I mean, I used to do a joke about that where, you know, you can't charm your way through math. No, you can't. Not for me. No. You can through English. Sure. Philosophy.

Almost everything else. Yeah. Math is more, it's very charming, but this is an F. Yeah, exactly. That's the wrong number. Would it be the wrong number if I held it like this? Exactly. That's a bit.

Yeah, it still would, motherfucker. You're terrible. I went to, I did college, and I was always like this. Exactly. That's the fit. Yeah, it still would, motherfucker. You're terrible. I went to, I did college and I was always doing theater in college. Harvard has this thing called the hasty pudding

where you can be in dresses as women. I did that. I played a fellow twice. I played it my sophomore year and my senior year. But in like, they have like a theater thing

for not- Harvard has tons of theater. Harvard has more theater than any other college in America. But for not- It's mostly bad though. But it's not for, you don't have to be in the theater program. No more theater than any other college in America. But for not- It's mostly bad, though. But it's not for, you don't have to be in the theater program.

No, no, it's not an ACT program. It's not structured. It's really, that's why they have more than anybody else, because any student can just, like I did a Paul Robeson play. Yeah. I just got a space. I walked around the campus for four days, four days, just putting up flyers. Right.

Rehearsed my ass off, and I just did it. And people showed up, and it was cool. And I had this wonderful moment, now that you bring it up that i never forget it's one of my most cherished memories is i remember there was a training program in upstate new york yeah it's called the hanger theater lab company and it was a place to really as a young person start your career as a real actor yeah and it was um it was not cheap and my family does not have money. So I'll never forget, I called my dad and I said, hey man, this is my junior year. Yeah.

Because you know, you have that foreboding sense in the back of your head like, there's a day of reckoning coming. Yeah. Because your ass is not going to medical school. Yeah. This facade will come to a lie. And you haven't told them. I haven't told anybody.

This is coming to a head at some point. But you just like party and dance. Are you getting good grades in the pre-med? No, terrible. Terrible grades. But passing. But terrible. My worst grades at Harvard were my pre-med grades.

And then I finally called my dad, my junior, and I said, hey, man, so there's a theater training program. And I want to go do it because I want to be an actor. And I'll never forget. He said, okay. He said, I think we kind of always knew you were going to do that. So, actor. And I'll never forget, he said, okay. He said, I think we kind of always knew you were going to do that. So, all right, I'll pay for it. That was it. It was wonderful.

Those were my best memories. I felt this weight lift off my shoulder. I just felt it. Dude, it was so good, man. I wish it on everybody, that moment where you accept who you're going to be. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

It was great, and I was so happy. And then my mom was like, okay, we just finished your pre-made requirements. that moment when you accept who you who you gonna be yeah you know yeah it was great and I was like so happy and that's the end in my mom was like okay we just finish your pre-made requirements and I said what the fuck yeah and so I got oh so she was like she's a it's like well indulge him she's like make sure he finishes yeah she's my mom was like well yes you can go but also just you know you might want to be a doctor right right I think she realizes the degree to which I'm getting off that path. You can't just casually fall back into that. They're worried about your future.

Well, they know where I come from. Yeah. They know how hard it is to do something from there. Yeah. It is at the level I've done it. So you finished school, though? Finished it, man. Graduated.

Came to LA. Oh, right after? Right after. Well, not immediately. I went home to Chicago first because I didn't make enough money. Yeah. I worked as a paralegal in downtown Chicago

to save up enough money to come to Los Angeles. Came to LA and then just had every odd job. I was a PA. I worked in restaurants. Where were you a PA? At Warner Brothers. Oh, just general? Not on a shoot? No, I was a PA for Warner Brothers Studios, which was cool.

At that time, their two big shows were Friends and ER. So I would see like the cast of Friends and I would see like George Clooney out there like tossing the football with some of the like crew guys. I was like, I've made it. And I was driving. I remember one day I was driving a cart and I whipped around a corner and I hit the brakes. It was Brooke Shields. I almost hit her with a cart.

Nice. I said, man, that would have totally ruined my entire Hollywood career if I knew where I was going. That was done. Yep. Random black kid, assault model.

By accident, yeah. How did he even get on the lot? That's the question I want to know. How did he get on the lot? Says he was working here. Claims he was working here, guys.

He's from Chicago, by the way. The bad part. The bad part, yeah. We can't vouch for this guy. But we started doing our own thing. And then, like you did, wasn't getting what I wanted, wasn't happy.

And we started making our own web videos. You and Diallo. Me and Diallo started making our own web videos. We were always doing sketch comedy. Diallo Riddle? Diallo Riddle. Yeah. Yep.

And he's some guy you met? We met in college. Right. Very similar background to me. Big family like I'm from. Really funny guy. What was the New York time? you met? We met in college. Right. Very similar background to me. Big family like I'm from. Really funny guy. What was the New York time?

You talk about New York. That was hard. Oh, right. That's right. So that's after that. Yep. We were making our own videos and then Jimmy, actually first David Allen Greer, God bless him, caught wind of us and hired us for his show for like two seconds.

Which one? It was a show called Chocolate Noob. Yeah. We kind of got there after they had done everything. Yeah. But it was cool, man. Being in a writer room for the first time. So you were a team. Yeah.

We were a writing team. Right. And we did Chocolate News. And then Fallon called us and said, hey, man, you guys should come out here. We met with him. And it was a 13-week contract. Uh-huh. And we were like, yo, man, the last person that had a TV show and talk show from the SNL camp was like Chevy Chase.

Right. That was not a show that lasted a long time. It's terrible. Your words, not mine. Everyone's words. America had made a decision about that show. Oh, yeah. So at the time,

Jimmy was also maligned because they were saying, oh, he breaks up in the sketches. He's not, you know. I think he's great. He's incredible. So we went and we worked. We had a 13-week contract and moved to New York.

Didn't know what the hell was going to happen. And that was four great years. Ended up being four. Got an Emmy nomination. And we did sketch. And obviously our show Sherman Showcase is sort of like the most logical progression. So A.D. Miles was the head writer? A.D. Miles was the head writer.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was cool, man. Morgan Murphy was there. Sure. Anthony was the head writer? A.D. Miles was the head writer. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was cool, man. Morgan Murphy was there. Sure. Anthony Jeselnik was there. And then a bunch of other really cool young. It's interesting with Jeselnik, because I always thought he had the best jokes.

Sure. Great joke writer. But then it would be like, that's hilarious. Not going on the air. Hilarious. Not going on the air. I'm like, these are great jokes, but he's not going to say this stuff. Yeah.

You know? So, okay. So you write for Fallon, and he's a good guy, right? Great. Great guy like, these are great jokes, but he's not gonna say this stuff. You know? So okay, so you write for Fallon, and he's a good guy, right? Great. Great guy. Cause like a lot of people like criticize. Really focus on the funny though, which I love. Oh, he's so funny.

Like it's not, but I'm saying he's not like, like there's not small talk with him. No, but that's why like people criticize him, cause he's so goofy and cute, but I'm like, that's what he's doing. That's what he does, yeah. And like when I do it, I just did the show like a week and a half ago, I'm always

relieved. It's going to be fine. Dude, he made us feel so, we were there, he made us feel so comfortable. I could not, I was so grateful that he made us, you know it's funny, I never appreciated how hard his job is until I was on the couch. Holy shit, this job is hard. But he kept the ball in the air,

he kept it interesting. He's quick. He kept setting us up for line drives. We had really good hits because of him and so i said oh man i am getting educated i am learning that shit is hard yeah to be out there and it's like you're out there alone i know it's live to tape you could edit it but you got to edit it he's so quick when you're talking to him and he listens yeah and he likes to laugh yeah he loves it yeah one of the things i love working working with him him is that it really is about the funny. I mean, you talk to him, as I was saying before, it's really not a lot of small talk.

It's like, how do we make this funnier? What does the audience think about this? Do we like this part of it? It's almost like technical. Yeah. And you kind of learn, because we were there some days, like, I don't know if you've ever written

for a late night show. It's like, dude, 20 hour days sometimes. And so every fucking day, and I don't give a fuck how great your day was on Monday. Yeah. Tuesday needs to be good too. Right. That's hard work. That's hard ass work.

Yeah. But I kind of like hard. Yeah. In my life, anything that's been hard has usually been like really worth it. Right. And the easy shit is like, it's not worth it. The payoff's better. Oh.

It's hard for a reason. It's hard because it's worth doing. So you got a good education with the funny with him. You got a great education in really collaborating. For me, comedy writing is collaborating.

Oh, for sure. You can't sit up there and be like, I'm the funny one. You're going to embarrass yourself. Unless you just write monologue jokes. Then you can go to the party. But even then,

they go through. I know, hundreds of them. Yeah, hundreds of them for seven. And then you're doing that, you write, but you also act. You're in the show with me, you're on Glow, and hundreds of them. Yeah, hundreds of them for seven. And then you're doing that, you write, but you also act. You're in the show with me. You're on Glow, and we do that. Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of fun.

And you're going to be in the new Top Gun movie. Yeah, I'm going to be in Top Gun. I'm playing Tom Cruise's best friend. Really? That's a big role, man. It was great. It was great. You know, it's funny.

I was on an aircraft carrier, and I was about to shoot this thing with Tom where he's in a jet, and I'm outside the jet, and we're having this really tough moment. moment yeah and then I just had that amazing moment of imposter syndrome wash over me I'm like who in the fuck life is this this is who is this guy but then I looked at my paper trail and I'm like yo man 20 years in you've acted in movies before it's not your first movie you acted on tv recurring on three different TV shows, produced shows. I was like,

you have the resume of somebody who would be in this moment. Right. But it's hard. Did you like the moment? Did I like it? So you're the new best friend? You don't go down, do you?

No, man. I don't even get to fly a plane. Everybody's like, you get to fly planes. I'm like, nah, I'm the- Who was the guy in the first movie that got killed with his best friend?

Goose. Yeah, Goose. Dr. Anthony Edwards from ER. The new movie, yeah. But you're with Tom a lot? Yeah, I'm with Tom the whole movie. And how was that? Educational.

You know, it's funny. Tom Cruise reminds me a lot of Jimmy Fallon and his professionalism. You know, I'm greatly aware that everybody's got stuff to say, but the good news about what we do is that we get to sometimes work one-on-one with folks.

And I will tell you that every discussion I have with Tom, it's similar to Jimmy in that Tom is like, what is the audience thinking right now? And I thought that was really cool to see. Like literally, I don't care where the camera is. I don't care. Anything that's happening on set, it's always going to pass through one single filter with him is like what is the audience's emotional response he really sees himself almost

like a roller coaster director I know that sounds weird but he's like we need to make sure this thing has enough thrills enough highs enough moments enough everything is he a producer I think he's always a producer yeah I mean if he's on the movie yeah it's his movie yeah so to watch that and to be like oh you know I know, I know people would think, you know, movie star, right? It's like, oh, movie star, movie star. One thing he always told us when we were on set, he was like, the reason I have a long career is competence. I study this stuff. He said, I've tried to learn what everybody on the movie set does.

He said, I go to movies. I sit in the back of the audience. I look. I see what they respond to. I see what they don't. I've done that all over. It's really like a scientific undertaking, almost like a technical undertaking.

And I think for myself, I was like, damn, I really want to learn how to do that because I don't think of my writing that way. I never thought of it, when I write, I always thought of it as like, how do I say what I want to say? I never thought of it as, when I say this, what will the audience feel?

And I think just that second part, which is where he is, is something that I want to get better at. It's sort of like an empathy thing almost. Like you put yourself in the position of the audience. He is a fan. He said, I'm a fan of these movies. I need to be able to watch this movie like a fan and feel like a fan feels it.

And I think that's actually, to his credit, has been the key to some of his longevity is because when you go to his movies, them shits really are exciting. Nice guy? Super nice. Yeah? Yeah, by the way,

I'm not going to say one bad thing on this podcast. I know that. Even though I could destroy, fuck all these guys. I could kill all of them. But could you? But I'm not.

No. No, I probably couldn't. You're going to be diplomatic. Absolutely. You're in show business now. I'm in show business, man. I can't be telling you. No crying,

a little small talk. I cry a little bit, y'all. Say nice things about everybody. That's the worst when you try to be all manly and then. Oh, yeah. You're like, I'm just going to break down right here if you don't mind. Yeah, and then they know. And then in your heart.

And then no matter how much you try to act tough outside after that, they kind of look at you and go, you're just crying, bro. Yeah, yeah. I had to bring you tissues. Yeah, yeah. The dog was licking your tears. Just know I know that. Yeah, yeah. The dog was licking your tears. Just know I know that. You know, I know that.

Vulnerability is something that I always saw as weakness growing up on the South Side, man. Some tough guys, man. Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of black folk will tell you, particularly if you read Twitter and stuff, you know, because even though I'm not on anything, I'm the world's number one troll. I troll everybody.

I always tell people I'm like that janitor in the breakfast club, you know. You know what's going on? I've been through your stuff. I know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I read your tweets's number one troll. I troll everybody. I always tell people I'm like that janitor in the breakfast club. You know what's going on? I've been through your stuff. I know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I read your tweets. Yeah, yeah. So, but vulnerability, you know, and it's linked to emotional expression. It's something a lot of black folk, I think, have traditionally been raised to see as weakness.

Because it's too tough to, like, go out there, get, you know get the man stepping on your neck all day, come home, she'll try to be some kind of mother figure and provider, and then also acknowledge the fact that you are fucking depressed as fuck and you barely got out of bed yesterday. Right. Because the kids are crying in the other room. The rent is due. You can't sit up here and do that. You can't feel sorry for yourself.

Yeah. But obviously that leads to some emotional destruction. Even in myself, and I'm one of the lucky ones. I came from a nuclear family. Everything was there. Again, we were talking about that with my woman. I did not realize the level of emotional damage that I had. And it was devastating.

I had to just be honest about how fucked up I was. And that is something I never thought I would have to do. It's nice, though. It's nice on the other side of it. And you almost wonder, how could I have kept that up for so long? That's embarrassing. You get to breathe now. Isn't it nice?

Yeah. So tell me, let's- I'm sorry, we should talk about the show. No, no. We actually talked about- Okay, good. Certainly about Southside Show. And Sherman Showcase, yeah, yeah.

But Sherman Showcase, no, because I watched episode of that. Now, the whole thing is around that show? The whole thing is around the thing, yeah. Around the dance show? One thing that Diallo says, which I love, is he says if, you know, 30 Rock took place at Saturday Night Live, Sherman Showcase takes place at Soul Train. Now, we don't just use Soul

Train, we use like a lot of TV shows. Yeah. American Bandstand, Burt Sugarman's Midnight Special. Yeah, I remember that. Really? Oh, you do? Yeah. you do yeah i'd never seen that diallo to his credit used to get these um he used to literally be up late at night watching the infomercials for burt sugarman's midnight specials and then he bought them yeah i kind of watched them all yeah i can't remember being on when i was a kid i'm 50 i'm 55 yeah because he was like he would sit there and talk i barely remember i mean i watched I watched the VHS's in the early 2000's

so that'll tell you yeah oh excuse me I guess it would be the DVD's at that point so it's sort of that kind of rock music showcase

we love music Diallo DJ's I sing you know we both play instruments we've always loved music we've always been strongly into music

we were at Fallon we did all the musical bits. We wrote the slow jam, the news with Obama. We were the guys who did the history of raps and even when Stephen Colbert came on to sing Friday,

we produced it. We were always with the musical guys. And you're working with the Roots. That's got to be great. Oh my God, working with Questlove.

You know, every now and then you meet somebody and you go like, man, I hope this person is this way and then they are.

He's a sweet guy. Man, you know this business. So when I was at Fallon, I will say that whole thing about don't meet your heroes is so yeah so many people i'm like hey well that guy is a jerk yeah you can't even do anything because they're like motherfuckers will embarrass you in front of the rest of the yeah the room full of people and all you can do is just eat that shit. Yeah. But not Questlove. No.

Questlove is the fight. You know what I like about Questlove is like he is a nerd in the greatest way in that when I say nerd, I mean somebody who has tremendous interests and they're unafraid to pursue them without anybody making fun. They don't give a fuck. They love Dungeons and Dragons or Star Wars. And in Questlove's case is music. And so Questlove and I and Diallo, mostly those two, would be down there talking about music.

Like, oh, well, you know, this guy played drums for James Brown. He really defined the sound. I don't think he defined the sound. I think, you know, they're really into weed stuff. Yeah, deep cuts. And so when you watch Sherman Showcase, what I love is that if you just like music and comedy, we have something for you. If you're a real music fan, Shermanerman showcase really gets it on yeah so we have an episode three that's really about the entirety of prince's career how he came out he was playing music for stevie nicks then he got really hot and

was doing stuff then there came a point where like he was getting less applause and the people opened for him right the sort of hip-hop era when it first really really hit right like 92 93 he was he was having a little bit of like difficulty continuing to stay as strongly relevant because hip hop was coming. Right. And so he continued to define himself. And then what our show does, which I love, is it almost serves as like a sort of a love letter to him. Almost like a goodbye. As a fan, I feel like we never really got to say goodbye.

Episode three? Episode three. And we never really got to say goodbye to him. And so we do that. But we have all this wonderful, we have this whole sketch about Barry Gordy's artists trying to get their money back from him. But it's shot like Ocean's Eleven.

So we're like doing a whole heist. You're gonna go in Barry's vault. Okay, he got Marvin Gaye's ashes in there. Watch out for that. So like all this stuff where it's like, hopefully it's funny, but more importantly like, actually funny is the most important.

If it's not funny, then we're done. Can't go back on that now. I know, right? Guys, here is the most important. If it's not funny, then we're going. Yeah. Can't go back on that now. I know, right? Guys, here's the thing. Funny schmoney. The point is, if you're a history buff, God damn, you're going to love this stuff. The one thing I'll say that I'm most proud of is that we really tried to be elite at every level. So we have our best.

We really did. We didn't just write the first season. We then brought in some of our comedy friends. We did a full punch up on the whole first season. You know, we didn't just write music for the show. We tried to follow what, you know, the Lonely Island guys do. And really, Mike, the first time I heard Lazy Sunday,

I was like, yo, this shit goes hard without the comedy lyrics. The comedy lyrics are like an added bonus. So it was really important to Diallo and I to go to real musicians to make our music. So we might hum a tune or have a bit of an idea. Then we go to people like Neo and this guy, Fonte Coleman and this group, the Knox. And we even, you know, there's all these really real musicians because we're smart enough to know that we are not real musicians

and working with quest love, right? You got to give it to somebody who has that shit in their heart. And I envy that. I wish I had it. I wish I was good enough, but I'm also smart enough to know that I'm not good enough. And why not employ some musicians? They could always use the work. Oh, my God. And they all want to be in front of the camera, which is great. So we have all these great John Legend and Common and all these great musicians who came on and just did comedy with us.

So it's like our show is like the only other place outside of SNL where if you're a musician, you can come on and we'll do some music stuff with you and we'll do some comedy stuff with you. The hope is that we've created something so different and unique that it stands out in this crowded marketplace. I mean, that's the goal.

So wait, so now Sherman's is on now. IFC starts Wednesday. Southside started last week. Sherman's. All right. And then Glow starts August 9th and Top Gun is out when?

Top Gun, I don't know. They didn't tell me. But you know Glow's coming out August 9th. August 9th, man. I'm excited. I just saw I was hanging out with Sadell yesterday. Oh, yeah?

I've had so many friends tell me that they think, they're like, oh, you know, Mark is so lucky to do that show because he gets to be a real asshole and he gets to just say whatever he wants. You can't do that anymore. Do you feel like you're doing a part where you get to be more over the top

than other people get to be? I don't know that I play it that way, but the way I feel is that these guys existed. And that's one of the reasons why that people like- It wouldn't work if it was fake. Yeah, they like Sam. All these women come up to me and say, that was my dad's friend. Everyone knew Sam, Ace Sam. My dad was like that.

My dad hung around guys like that. That guy was like a regular guy back in the day. He's a bit of an asshole. I don't think he's a conscious misogynist. Everyone was swimming in the same water, dude. It was just the way shit was. He's obviously

not a racist. He's a certain type of asshole that is not as toxic as real monsters. I don't think Sam's a monster he's not trying to kill careers and destroy people's lives no it's like he's a sad sack asshole yeah yeah it's america's favorite asshole it is yeah people love a cranky sad sack asshole good talking to you basheer thanks for having me this is great all right there you go.

Again, the show that Bashir can be seen in is Sherman's Showcase. He created that, co-created it, and stars in it. It's on Wednesday nights on IFC. He's also in Season 3 of GLOW with me. I actually fill in for his job on GLOW. That's part of my job in the show is to fill in for his job. You'll see. Rest in peace, David Berman.

You will be missed. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. need delivered with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get a nice rank on uber eats but iced tea ice cream or just plain old ice yes we deliver those goaltenders no but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.