WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1048 - Betty Gilpin

Episode Date: August 26, 2019

Betty Gilpin’s performance on GLOW has brought her critical accolades, Emmy nominations, and personal fulfillment. So why does she feel like she’s constantly running from a monster that is snapping at her ankles? Part of it is she lost a certain degree of invisibility as a performer and as her visibility rises the job gets harder and weirder. Betty and Marc discuss the strange out-of-body experiences of talk shows and junkets, and how learning to fight for yourself becomes a critical survival tool. Betty also deploys an elaborate metaphor for life that involves vestibules, Patti Smith, soil and brain scrolls. This episode is sponsored by Anchor (anchor.fm/wtf), Spotify (spotify.com/drive), Google Fi, and BetterHelp. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast i am broadcasting from the road i am broadcasting from a motel room or a hotel room. What is the difference? I should know that, right? I'm broadcasting

from the eighth floor of a hotel in Houston, Texas, after just eating some amazing Indian food. I bet you didn't see that coming. Yep. I just, there's a place here in Houston that I go to all the time I'm here and me and Delray went, I'm traveling with Dean Delray. He's a, he's been opening for me here in Texas. No better traveling companion than Dean Delray. You know, when people ask me, well, what are your hobbies? What do you like to do? And I think really one of the great pastimes of my life is driving with a buddy who understands what's happening and is on the same page for hours you know in a relatively straight line through a very flat state just blasting hard rock music and playing air guitar, occasionally playing a little air drum, even a couple beats of air bass with the head rocking and with just shivers, man, chills.

Great time. We had a great drive. In the last part of it, we were weaving through a good chunk of Texas, and you can really see the beauty of the state of Texas which there is some you just have to understand the context it's very easy to dismiss sort of like Texas yeah who wants to drive through Texas it's a lot but if you if you frame in a different way where you like Texas is is is its own thing which it definitely is uh and you appreciate that thing from within it the small weird towns that were built by germans god knows when you know brick buildings uh large ranch lands strange

structures even the rv park with the confederate flag fits into the framework and there is sort of a a beauty to it when the hills start to roll a bit and the sky gets big. You can feel the expanse of the country of Texas. It is sort of pretty stunning, especially when Highway to Hell is blaring and you're both laughing. So we drive in, we get to Opie's Barbecue, which of course is a regular stop. Man, it was like arriving on a beautiful planet. Because Kristen over there. Who owns the place. She knows me.

She always takes care of me. We look at the meats. We get some brisket. We get some baby backs. We get some spare ribs. We get this jalapeno cheddar sausage. That was fucking insane. And we just sat there. It was glorious.

It was one of those days. I don't know if you have days that you remember like this or whether they still happen to you where it just, everything just times out, right? You know, we had a nice time on the road. We jammed, we had like, you know, just the legal, a legal, good time, a legal, good time. And then we arrive and we celebrate with this huge, uh, beautiful play to meet, and then we go back, go to our rooms, nap, and go do a show. It's fucking, it was fucking beautiful, man.

And Dino's just a blast to travel with. I don't know if you listen to Dean's podcast, Let There Be Talk, but he talks to all musicians, and musicians are starting to dig it, and I'm recommending it to you again. And he's getting pretty good on stage too he's kind of fucking giving me a run for the money you know i'm saying say it's hard to keep the guys opening for you when they're giving you a run for the money right betty gilpin betty gilpin is on the show today

betty gilpin of course my co-starring glow and of course the uh the star of a movie that no one will see uh the hunt which was pulled by uh the distributor because of pushback from uh I believe mostly people ignorant of the nature or tone of the movie who were on the right side of things not correct side the right side of things but betty is here i talked to her in the garage i love her uh we love each other i love working with her and she's a tremendous actress and a very enjoyable person so that is happening shortly now brace yourself chuck woolery uh came to my show in austin saw me and dean chuck woolery is friends with uh the woman who uh who owns opies and they both came i always tell her to come she

enjoys the show and she's brought chuck before and a lot of you got you a lot of people know chuck is a sort of a sort of a very virulent voice on the twitter and the airwaves a very virulent uh trumpian republican voice uh i don't know i haven't gone to his twitter feed but i know he came to the last show and and was respectful and enjoyed the show enjoyed the intelligence of my performance was not uh mean-spirited there and he came backstage so last night and he it was just the chuck willery you know from television nice guy telling long stories about uh how he started in show business because of his relationship with jonathan winters the amazing comic it's just an odd thing it's a very odd time there was a time before everybody wasn't public and had an outlet to spew their uh political bile that uh you know

people's politics were just their politics and you know you could still deal with them as people it's a little challenging uh when when everything's out there i guess for everybody on both sides but you know he was a perfectly pleasant guy and he was respectful and uh i don't think i changed him in any way i don't think any of my message got through I do not think he went to Twitter the the next day and pulled back or rethought some of his stances but he did take it in and I imagine there were others in the audience I'll tell you one thing for anybody with a certain point of view that is right wing or what have you to to sort of be respectful at a a presentation of a performance that involves free speech and a fairly severe attacks on the current order uh and religion and be tolerant of that and and be uh you know sociable and you know

and actually uh entertained is not nothing it is part of bridging the gap and i i guess i have to believe on some level it is a bridgeable gap but then there's the possibility that those people are just going to come up to your face and be smug and bully like and condescending knowing that they've got their you know boot on your throat politically at the current moment don't know don't know how to read it all the time so this morning before we kind of changed the entire tone another beautiful situation we got dean and i got in the car this morning from austin and for the drive from Austin to here, we went straight Grateful Dead. Literally one concert on the Sirius station, the Grateful Dead Sirius station,

got us all the way from Austin to Houston. And it was glorious. Knew most of the songs. Dean, not unlike me, not so latent Grateful Dead fan. Dean a little deeper into it but uh just to sort of the kind of lyrical movement through the smaller highways from austin to houston with one concert from i think it was like 1982 all the way down uh like almost three hours and it was again complete opposite of the musical experience the day before but completely as engaged different vibe different conversations kind of a little more open a little

more free-flowing a little more kind of like I wouldn't say spiritual but you know you look at Texas in a different way when you're if you're listening to acdc's powerage or you're listening to uh you know stella live stella blue live you know it's just a different thing and and again good traveling companion good times on the road with dean delray dig it so did i mention the name of the restaurant pondicherry pondicherry is the name of the restaurant? Pondicherry. Pondicherry is the name of the Indian place that I go in Houston. It's in kind of an upscale office park mall-ish area, but just astounding Indian food.

All right, so Betty Gilpin. Betty Gilpin. Betty is here, and we had a great conversation. Now, we do talk a little about a movie that she starred in that she had a very challenging role in and and uh thought it was she did a great job but no one will ever see not for a while anyways we do talk about the film The Hunt uh which was a satire that was pulled I was by I don't know who the distributor was I should know. I don't know who the distributor was. I should know, but I don't.

But it got some flack from the right-wingers who were, I think, basically ignorant of the subject matter or where it went because it was a satire, but given that they're fairly numb to satire, it probably would have been more along the lines of what they believe should happen but they immediately pushed back on it I guess the studio crumbled and they pulled the movie but Betty did you know fight to get that part and did a great job in it so we talked about it and I think as a

conversation about acting and about the business you know I think we'll keep that in there because it's important. And maybe someday we'll get to see her work in that film. You obviously know Betty from her work with me on GLOW. And I think the big news is she's nominated for an Emmy in the category of Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series. And you can watch season three of GLOW. It's now streaming on netflix

and uh as i said before we recorded this conversation with betty uh before it was announced that the movie she made the hunt was being shelved by its distributor so so you can watch me and betty in season three of glow and hope and hope that she wins. This is me and Betty Gil. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know,

we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need.

That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. The trick is, I guess, from what I understand in the human, is gratitude. Okay. How are you with gratitude? I'm good with it. I feel very grateful.

You do? But like actively? Does it happen naturally? Because I think I need some help. Feeling gratitude. Yeah. Do you like naturally feel like I'm so, I can't believe this is happening. This is great.

Yeah. I'm, yeah. Everything. I'm not so good at so, I can't believe this is happening. This is great. Yeah, I'm, yeah. Everything. I'm not so good at that, I guess. No, I mean, I wonder, do you feel like you're in trouble because you've made your brand to be like non-gratitude guy? Well, I have a hard time with the whole branding of people thing. Totally, yes, of course. Yeah, I have my problems and maybe, you and maybe I do honor them more than I should.

But I find I'm genuinely pretty full of dread and a bit cranky about things. Authentically. Authentically. Unless I'm totally by myself and I have nothing to do, then it's great. Right. Yeah. I can just play guitar, read a book, not worry about anything for an entire day. Right.

Not worry about other people. Great. I'm sensitive. I'm open. I'm vulnerable. As soon as, you know, other people. Outside stimulus. Or an animal pees on something, it's fucking over.

Right. Then it's sort of like. So is that a defense mechanism? What? What? To be barnacley? Probably. But like most people, the people uh that i get along with you know

there's all the people that say i'm an asshole or i'm neurotic or i'm cranky they just uh they don't have the code right like you i mean you have the code pretty much you know you were able to see that well this is this guy's doing this thing and he seems like a pleasant person in there sweet guy yeah right but a lot of people they don't they stop it oh i have the mark maron yeah that's right oh yeah i feel like i i saw you from the very start i know we talked about that in the last time i felt like no we can't we got initially i think that i was intimidated but but then you cleared it up you just said that you know you just put on this thing doesn't mean you're being an asshole but

you just kind of yeah yeah well i think we both share the like we have a kind of fuck you vestibule that people need to walk through in order to get to the seven-year-old who wants your love yeah and a lot of times my the buzzer in mind doesn't work oh yeah for sure people keep hitting that buzzer yeah yeah yeah mine's mine's boarded up often as well. Well, yeah, I think it's important though, don't you? I mean, I don't know. Yes. The risk you run is that people judge you as something that you're not.

But, you know, I think so what? Yeah. Well, it's also, I've been thinking a lot about it feels dangerous to like, I've been thinking a lot about it feels dangerous to like, it's like the blessing and the curse of having access to your authentic self and having that be part of your job. I just really worry about it sometimes that we're going to take that open channel to that self for granted. And that when it has a price tag on it or when too many people are looking at it, then that channel is going to be cut off or something.

Or else it's like it's going to become inauthentic because you're aware that it's marketable or something. Yeah. Like you're going to overuse it and it'll just wear out. Right. Or like. I don't know about that word. Do you find like don't isn't it like new that authentic is this word right it's weird i don't know i know i've been thinking about a lot

i don't even know what it really means my authentic self is seven yes yes yeah yeah well and i think we're all like oh my god the world is ending like all right we're you know let's talk about how we're all like shitting our pants and trying to touch god like who who are you really let's hold hands and like feel the apocalypse together but i feel like there is a branding of that now yeah a branding of vulnerability right that is so fucking scary to me that like you know like doing press and having to answer the same questions over and over again yeah i feel this thing where you know you're kind of like oh to protect that central non-vestibule self i'm actually just gonna like sound bite this version of it so that when i feel that question coming, I'm just going to hit play. They'll get the like commercialized vestibule version and I'll protect my inner, inner self.

But then I feel like sometimes when I'm talking to someone, I'm like, oh my God, you're giving me a tape recorder vestibule answer right now. Right. And I could be anybody. Right. And you just sensed a question coming that you knew. be anybody and you just sensed a question coming that you knew so you launched into this like talk show story pattern yes yeah that now i've ceased to exist in the conversation right yeah you're just supposed to do your pre-recorded thing and he does his pre-recorded thing right

and then it's weird all these vestibules i don't think there's buildings attached to it exactly it's it's fucking terrifying that is what i'm feeling i'm like okay i've spent i feel like in selling our show and selling myself and trying to like you know fucking use this time to get to a or like whatever, to get to another level or something. I'm like, oh gosh, yeah, it's disgusting and not real. But like, I'm like, oh gosh, I've spent a lot of time in this like selling commercial vestibule. I'm just going to like quick go back into the basement. Holy shit, the door's locked. Like, oh, I feel like I feel myself wanting to have an existential crisis, but I'm trapped in the vestibule and there's like a half tube of lip gloss and like a dead baby.

Like they're like, oh, yeah, we don't have the actual existential tools for a crisis right now. Yeah, the basement's locked and everybody outside's laughing. Yeah. They're like, oh, see, we got her. Yeah. Now she's one of us. Yeah. Welcome to the vestibule.

Right. But then for women especially, I would say the vestibule, you're not like you expire from the vestibule right but then the for women especially i would say the vestibule you're not a like you expire from the vestibule like they don't let you go back into the house it's lucky you have a house yeah lucky it's connected to a building i guess but now i'm terrified that like when my tits are in my shoes and no one wants me to like memorize lines anymore i'll be like okay i'm gonna head back into the house and the house is gonna be be like completely empty with one nail. And I'll just like live out my life eating boxes of special K and realize like when I was in the vestibule, I forgot to like water my friendships and marriage and read Moby Dick and be a real person with roots in the ground.

Right. But at least you have, you know, your cereal choice and it wasn't a common one. Special K is not common. Well, I don't know. It's something I think people grow up with on the East coast. Right. I don't know. Yeah. But it's good to have a cereal. That's elitist to like special K? No, no, it's not elitist. I just associate it with my grandmother. Okay. Like, I don't know. In New Jersey. I just not, it was like one of the. I am a grandmother person. Well, no, it was one of those original weird healthy cereals that wasn't really healthy. Right. Like it wasn't a kid cereal. Yeah.

I guess that was like probably, I was never like anorexic, but I was too depressed to like think about vitamins and protein. Special K was, I ate like 12 bowls of Special K a day. That's good. And that was it. Did you put fake sugar on it? Oh, oh, like five tablespoons of white sugar. Oh, good.

All right. The white sugar. Real sugar. I wanted it to crunch. Yeah. Well, okay. So, okay. We deal with the same thing because I think we're similar in that it's sort of a chore

to do this dance. And what you risk when you are like sort of sensitive or smart is that you're going to you know alienate people or say the wrong thing right and then when you try not to do that it's hard not to hate yourself well i also think we're similar in that like we've we've uh found a way to use our demons in our work. Yeah. Like. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's, well, that's interesting because that's a, that be, you know, once you process some of your demons, it's, that's who occupies the vestibule. Yeah. So it's sort of like, and you know, we can be in the house going, look at that asshole just out there doing the work. Right. Yes. Totally. Yeah. And, you know, we can be in the house going, look at that asshole just out there doing the work. Right. Yes, totally. Yeah. But sometimes it feels like you're on a book tour with the demon and they're wearing like bows and lip gloss being like, yeah, I'm so glad that we're working together. And you want to be like, also, fuck you still. Yeah. Yeah.

It's hard when you're struggling with the demon in front of people. Yeah. It's not great. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It happens a lot. With me, it's with anger, though, you know, because I feel it come up if I'm performing or I'm in stand up or whatever, even in acting to a degree that there's a moment there where

you're sort of like, you know, fuck this. Right. Fuck it. Yes. And like you want to say it. Right. Thank God you've learned enough to be like, you know, maybe keep that guy. Right.

Yes, yes, yeah. As long as you keep like throwing them a few steaks, being like, see, you got to come out of this show tonight. Wasn't that fun? Have some ice cream.

Took a little walk, now back in the house. I'm going to go to the vestibule, read a magazine. So what do you, are you running around all day today? Am I running around all day? Like doing press?

I'm doing, Natasha Leon and I are doing a thing for Variety. So I've got like. Like a talk or a photo shoot or what? Both. So today I'm, the theme of my day is talking to cranky, intelligent people.

I don't have a raspy voice and I speak at a pretty reasonable clip. Yeah, but like when I read Just Kids, I was like, God, it's such a shame that I don't know anyone like these people. Well, I know two. I know Marc Maron and Natasha Lyonne. Have you seen video or film of Patti Smith

when she was in that era? She's almost like feral yeah it's crazy she doesn't even talk like you can't even identify her accent oh yeah she's like a living e.e. cummings heroin needle sea captain person yeah i i met her one time you did yeah i did in new york yes i did a sam shepard play which one it was a new one that, I mean, RIP, I don't know that it would have been done had it not been written by Sam Shepard. It was like a nonsensical poem.

Yes. Huh. Was it a later thing? Yes. It was a, he had, he wrote it on a typewriter and brought it to the first rehearsal and it was the only copy. And some intern was like,

I'm just going to quickly make copies and like freaked out.'ve still got a carol act style yes it was all very care like in the rehearsal process we weren't allowed to ask questions and sam was there sam was there um sam was there was he there and like he you know you and sam have a weird relationship yeah for sure sam sam you made sam's demon hungry is that what happened is that a nice way to frame it i would say that yes with love and respect. He's still my hero. And that experience was fucking unbelievable. But like we weren't allowed to like one day he was like he interrupted a run and he was like, just remember all the colors. We were like, you mean like the tones of the scene?

And he was like, no, no, no. Like blue, purple. In general. Keep going. Yeah. We never address colors. But yeah, i played a mute ghost nurse and it was there any backstory well mark i wasn't allowed to ask questions right so

you just kind of wouldn't have been avant-garde run with it yeah so this was sort of like his return to his roots of you know doing kind of of like he's a nobody and he's experimenting. And this is what he returned to. Yes. So how's Patty playing to it? Oh, she came. She was close with him and came to a performance and then like floated into our dressing room and held my face. Really?

It was insane. I was like, this is the greatest moment of my life. That must have been amazing. Yeah, it was insane i was like this is the greatest that must have been that must have been amazing yeah it was anything said um i can't remember i just remember being like you're the craziest looking person i've ever seen in my life in the best way i mean like that's what i'm i feel like she watered her demon into becoming patty smith just was her. Like my dream is to have in my house Patti Smith behind the door of the vestibule. And that's what it is back there. Well, I think that I saw her once and she, if you're going to use the word authentic properly, I think she's it. Yes.

I think what it is is that it's an integration of self to to a point of of acceptance where you know you are who you are and that's really it yeah and and you're not apologetic about it yes right yeah and to get there and maintain relationships in a career is tricky yes because in order to for it to appeal to the masses or for it to get you health insurance, you kind of have to Trojan horse it into what you're doing. Primarily for the health insurance. Right. So whatever you're going to do to try to get that health insurance is probably going to

make you sick. So you're lucky you have it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a human centipede of selling yourself. I've really stifled a lot of myself to get here and now I have cancer. So I'm glad that role worked out.

I can go to the clinic. I can go over to Bob Hope any time. Yeah, exactly. And now I have pain to draw on for my next role. Yeah, if I make it. If I make it. Yeah, right. Oh, my God.

Oh, so they did. Well, they wrote Cowboy Mouth together, I think. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and there's all these black and white pictures of them, like, sucking on each other's tongues in the Lower East Side or something. It's so hot. But was that, but for me, like, well, I'm older than you,

but I mean, those are... Just a few years older. Yeah, I know. Not a lot. A lot older, Betty. I'm fucking a lot older. I'm almost your father. Yeah. But I mean, I romanticized that whole era, and i romanticize those people and they were like the mythic people to me that you know they were the like that whole scene

and the beatniks and all that stuff heading into my intellectual and creative life those were the people right and it's weird as i meet a lot of them now like i had bruce dern was sitting right there where you were yesterday they're just people and they're weird but they're they're just people and but they i don't know what it is i don't know how many of your heroes you've met but it's the ones that can still maintain hero status after you've met them as people those are the those are the good ones yeah or also like hero status and also like oh i don't want to i don't want to think about you filling out a W-2. Like I just want you to exist as like your poem barnacle self. Don't meet him.

Yeah. Don't talk to him then. But honestly, that's how I feel about you, Mark. I feel like I know your- I don't fill out my W-2s. I've evolved to the point where I have a guy do that. Oh, yeah. I can't comprehend that.

No, but I feel like I know the person in your house, inside, and I'm not interested in the vestibule person. That's why when he came over, I was almost crying. Betty's coming over, just do this talk. I'm like, Daddy's coming over. You just talk. You do the interview. And then you show up. How are you personally? Like, what do you mean?

Like, I'm okay. But yeah, that's what I'd rather have. Like, I don't know. I feel like I want to keep it that way because I know don't like really know the ins and outs of our logistic lives but i i really love you and i feel like on a barnacle poem inner monster basement level i really know you and really love you yeah i feel that too i don't know when that happened exactly i don't either but it was i think I don't either. But I think it's because- I think it was last season.

Yeah, but I think it's because when we first met, we were like, let's not do the vestibule stuff. Yeah, but also let's not really talk to each other. Well, I think I was also like, I don't want my demon to be activated by- By my demon? my demon to be activated by well but in my demon no in a good like i was like i don't want to start like a punny flirty relationship yeah and then have to have that like fizzle and then be like weird i was like let's just not do that me i was i was like that's my that's probably going to be the thing i'm going to try to do. Right.

Not as a you doing it. No, I would have jumped right on and then it would have gotten really uncomfortable. Yes, exactly. And it would be like, you know, no, we can't. I got it. And then, all right, so what do we do now? Right. It's just awkward for as long as the show goes on. Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are things I could say in general about, you know, the whole process that I probably shouldn't say. Okay. And maybe after. Okay, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there are things I could say in general about, you know, the whole process

that I probably shouldn't say. Okay. And maybe after. Okay, great. And then I'll get you out of my house. Okay, yeah. Gotta go. I gotta, yeah.

Bye. Nice talking to you. And then close the door and go like oh fuck oh we're so close to oh man now I hope

there's no fourth season because it's all fucked up no there has to be I need health insurance I gotta what do you do in movies

I don't know what are you talking about you never know but I know of course you don't know but if you do you know one independent movie with the kind of like where you't know, but if you do one independent movie

with the kind of like where you're at in your career, you get your insurance for a year. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I just don't know. Like the whole thing about being grateful, which I really am, I also am like just always trying to be like,

this is going to go away in one second. So be grateful. But like, I just, I get very embarrassed when I hear people talk about like, and now we're in Versailles forever. It's like, we're really not. We're going to be replaced in a millisecond. I've always had that thought. And like, I still frame my career as like, I'm happy to make a living.

Like, you know, I obviously I'm doing okay. I'm happy to make a living like I you know I obviously I'm doing okay I don't have a wife or children or debt and like which is good I'm very happy about that yeah but like I still frame it like I want to continue making a living and I don't want you know health insurance is nice it's nice to be able to go to the clinic but I do frame my career like that right and I think there are, there are people that don't. They're like, I don't know, like when we talk about levels, because I have that in my head that like,

what level am I at and how do you get to this other level? And what is that level? The level where, you know, you're surrounded by people you pay to be around you, you know,

at all times. Right. You're insulated. Yes. You know, you become some, even if you don't know it, you become a monster. Yes. And a monster like, you've never met before. Like, you don't even know thatulated. Yes. You know, you become some, even if you don't know it, you become a monster.

Yes. And a monster like you've never met before. Like you don't even know that monster. Yes, yes, yes. Until you're enabled. Yes. And I don't know what the fuck happens to people. It's a shallow, uninteresting monster.

I don't know what happens to people. And I don't know, like when we talk about vestibules in the house, it's like about authentic self and about authoritarianism, which I'm adding now. And, you know, you better know who you are when the shit goes down. Yes, yes. Because I sort of say that and I think about it. I'm not sure why I'm thinking it. But like, you know, these questions of self and that kind of stuff, they become real relevant. Yes. become real relevant yes but on some level it comes down to like you know whether i like it

on a day-to-day basis or not or whatever you know the struggle is to do the work you know the work is really what is the most important is it it becomes more relevant to me than my social life than you because this is like where you're present it really happens and then the rest you know seems to be patterns right yeah yeah or that like you forget why if you're if you're so focused on i don't know i've been feeling this a lot that like so much of my life as a girl and a woman and an actress it's like running from this monster snapping at my ankles like it's the special K depression monster. Your monster.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. My own, yes. The self-judgment monster. Yeah. The monster that says, you know, you're shitty, you're not. Yeah, or the monster that's like, this is all cute, but when you're ready to stop running,

I'm going to eat you and we're going to like, not kill ourselves, but like stop calling people back and sit and be sad be sad get fat forever yes yeah and just really take it into like an emily dickinson place i feel that like i feel like but don't you find though as you know you've been doing well your career if you want to you know what however you frame your life's work you know you do okay you're making a living but don't you think that like sometimes when some of those problems are solved that when that feeling of like i can slip into this darkness very easily it is a little countered by by some success totally yes so i feel like in this running with the monster snapping at the

ankles we're like running towards this light of oh if i just get there in time and put enough distance between me and the monster or like the balance yeah then i'll be able to survive but in order to do my work and to be alive it's like sometimes in a scene or in a talk with you or in a moment alone i have to stop and let the monster like take over for a second and like inhabit me and then then I'm like, okay. Okay, and now it's time to run away because don't stay there too long because then you'll fucking cross over. Yes, but right now in this second,

like this week or whatever, I feel like closer to the light than I ever have been. And I'm kind of like, ooh, where's that monster at? Like, it looks like a plat the light is actually like made of bugs and plastic like I feel like I'm seeing around the corner at like that next level that we've all been like scrambling for and it looks like maybe nothing's in there yeah like or like what do I do when I get there yeah Like, because I don't know what to do.

Yeah. I don't know. Like, what do I even want to do? What do I like doing? Exactly. And maybe the monster is going to stop chasing me when I'm there. Maybe the monster is not going to want to hang around there. Yeah.

Yeah. And then I'll just be a sucky, vocal fry Voldemort person who's trapped in the vestibule. Or worse, maybe you're not in the vestibule. You're actually outside with a lot of choices on your hands. And're like i don't know what to do yeah you know like if i'm not fighting with that monster and he's just sitting there come on why aren't we playing anymore yeah yeah like what i don't i don't really know because you you know you spend your life in the struggle and you know happiness or what you like to do or you just sort of i don't i don't know what those things are yeah do you no i don't it's fucked up i don't like when people ask me what do you like well

occasionally uh ice cream's good i play guitar right i listen to music but don't you want to yeah i don't know oh yeah i've been doing like this is the first i know you've done this forever and i feel like this is like the first year i've had to do like talk shows and stuff and i feel like that's fun isn't it it is fun but i am having this reaction i totally it's so fun you know how to be funny on purpose it's it's fun to be funny on purpose but i also feel like i if there's this like gremlin inside that's like does anyone have like a cup of soil I could eat or like

I feel like I'm just make sure you ask that the next time you appear on a talk show it's like there's just water on my mug

I asked for dirt is there dirt I just want to like eat some soil like put period blood under my eyes like I'm a baseball player in like a feminist apocalypse

and just be like, yeah, that should definitely be your next Colbert opening. Yeah. Don't leave out the period. Great. Cause also there's this crazy thing where when I'm on a talk show, I'm also in this weird genetic Island where my tits are the size of printers.

They're in the air right now like i'm when i'm on a talk show i'm i have makeup on my knees on my hands i've got fake hair in my head i have fake hair on my eyes to look like my lashes are longer there's shading that was uh started for drag queens that now they're using on girls, young girls to change the shape of our face. I look like a porny poodle version of myself, like an avatar video game version of myself to go like tell a story about like to like cutesify my depression in a soundbite. It's crazy. But do you have choices? I mean, you don't have to wear all that. I mean, the boobies are going to stay,

but you don't have to do the other stuff. No, exactly. I'm not saying like, oh, and now I'm forced to do this. I like it when your hair is just down and no makeup-y. Yeah, well, I like that that too but it's strange i i always play the girl whose books i carried in high school yeah like who is a girly alpha yeah

like the other porn poodle person and you play them when you're when in roles yeah yeah and it confuses me that i'm like, oh, am I here for the Patti Smith basement stuff? Or no. Or am I here for the porny poodle stuff? Because that stuff's going to expire.

So like, are you guys going to like trade me in in a year when? I think you, but I feel, you know, I feel for you

is that you'll, you'll level off, you'll be comfortable, you go out there, you know, you'll just be like, you know, maybe you'll travel

with Patti Smith to talk shows. That's, that's by the way, a huge stretch that i would ever think that i could ever i just mean like my inner i should be like my inner fucking avril lavigne that i think is patty smith no come on but like but let's if we go back though because the theater thing like i i became sort of fascinated and i don't know i don't think we talked about this the last time. I know a little bit of what we talked about. But on an acting level.

Yeah. What's interesting for me, like once I got to know you and Allison and then I, you know, I did scenes with both of you, you know, more with you. You know, the second season or whenever it happened. But it's like there are these two schools of acting. Just sort of like you're New York and she's L.A. And there's definitely a different approach in a sense that when I watch her, the way she makes choices and the way she locks into things, there's definitely a different approach to acting that I think is an L.A. thing. Whereas in New York, you're rolling around mud, soil, period, blood, doing poetry, being mute. Yeah. You know, wasting our money,

crying about our childhoods. But I don't know if it is a waste. Do you? I mean, maybe it's a waste if you look at it from the outside. Like, I know that's one way to look at, you know, the process of acting classes, how many people really make it out of there with with chops or with the ability to act and how many people are just kind of processing problems. But it seems to me that all that stuff, the way I did it on stage publicly on my own volition, I do think it amounts to something. Yes, I do. I think it amounts to being able to trick your brain into going from the vestibule into the house. In theater school, I feel like I filled that house with an ocean of weird and dark images and explored the weirdest, darkest, non-vestibulist parts of myself that I can then access. Right.

So you were able to sort of like, you know, when I talk to people who start comedy, I say like, with the beginning, you have nothing to lose. So do whatever the fuck you want to do. Right. So you can figure out what your territory is on stage, you know, like where you can go. So like once you go out there. Right. And, you know, it's like you own that space if you want to use it. You don't always have to go out there, but you know, it's like you own that space if you want to use it. You don't always have to go out there, but you know you've been there.

Right. Yes. Yeah. And I think it gets trickier to go from your, like, it is a mindfuck to me that a day on set starts with two hours of me porn poodling myself or like professional artists. Yeah. Or any, like when I play play a lawyer it's two hours of right yeah painting and sculpting yeah and then to be like okay and now i'm gonna go into my work day where i have to like try to swim in the ocean of weird and right and forget that

i have to also pay this toll that you've. That you've been designed as an object for the male gaze. Right. Yeah. There you go. Now go be you. Yeah. Hi. Yes.

Right. Or go be someone else. Like go access demony people inside you. It's hard to like, like sometimes I'll look down at my sides and I'll have written something where I'm like, I'm like, okay, all right. People are adjusting my, okay, suck it in,

be here. Um, get shoulders back. Um, okay. Someone's sewing the thing on my boobs so they don't Hulk out in the middle of the scene. All right.

And we've touched up the lip gloss and Al, we're teasing the hair. Okay. I'm looking at my sides and I've written down on this line to have a homeless witch come out of my throat and grab Mark's eyelash for dear life. Huh. I don't know that I know how to do that anymore. I'm glad that you used to. But sometimes I do.

Sometimes I really do. Is that part of it? You write poetry and that's your- Or I just like abstractify the fuck out of, like in my iPhoto library, I have pictures of Jonestown. You mean those pictures of the bodies? Yeah.

Why? You mean those pictures of the bodies? Yeah. Why? Because I find it harder to get from that vestibule into the house now. The door used to just be open all the time. When I was doing off-Broadway theater that no one cared and no one was watching and the play was bad anyway. I was walking in and out of that house. There's nothing on the line.

Nothing on the line. And I just wasn't questioning my value, I guess. Or it just was, yeah, yes. It was the gift of invisibility. And now that there's some visibility, sometimes it's fucking harder to get in there to the part of myself that is the most valuable part to me. And that's probably exactly what happens to those people we were talking about before when they become this monster.

They just get padlocked in there. Well, yeah, they can't. On the other side. Yeah, because the expectations are so intense. Yes, yes. You know, like if you were operating at a level that some, you know, actors operate Yes, yes. time I mean everyone has to act but I guess what I'm saying is like you know if you're forced to live in that vestibule you you know and you're not yeah the risks you take are relative to that you know how do you get back there I don't know and the loneliness of being in that vestibule

when you're like oh the only form of love and validation I'm gonna get is like like i just went to comic-con and i did some panel and for what for the hunt this movie and but the panel was like action women yeah um and it was right before the marvel panel so there were it was in hall h there were seven literally seven thousand people there and i made a joke so seven thousand people who were there to see the panel after ours yeah but i made a joke. So 7,000 people who were there to see the panel after ours. But I made a joke and 7,000 people laughed. I know you're used to way more, but like I. No, 7,000 is high. But I mean, like the wave of like the heroin hit of validation.

Yeah. I was like, whoa, that's amazing. That's probably really addictive when you're feeling very lonely in your personal life yeah like and it must be hard to then like i remember then i called my brother on the phone and i had to be like whoa ask him a question listen to what he's saying don't zone out thinking about that moment when 7,000 people laughed at your stupid non-joke. Check the picture of Jonestown. Yeah, exactly.

That is why I have Jonestown on my phone. I'm like, look at a pile of dead bodies. Yeah, I feel so good. Or just like, yeah, I'm just, you know, I want to have a baby someday and I'm so scared I'm going to give birth and the baby's going to be like, that's who you are. Oh, come on. That's the one thing you can fool have a baby someday and i'm so scared i'm gonna give birth and the baby's gonna be like that's who you are oh come on that's the one thing you can fool it's a baby some babies maybe a boy baby no girl baby well yeah but you got six years probably five or six years till i what till they see you oh great but like your parents i mean were they did you know them too as actors they're both actors yeah but did you know them to as actors or both actors? Yeah.

But did you see them like do any of that kind of real work? I mean, was there a point where you watched your dad or your mom on stage and, you know, you saw, you know, what made it amazing that did they take chances? Were they that kind of actor? Yes. A hundred percent. They you know, they did. They were New York actors in the 80s and 90s and still

but in the 80s and 90s if you were a New York actor you did mostly theater and law and order what's your old man's name? Jack Gilpin and your mom? Ann McDonough

uh huh so yeah so they're theater primarily yes yeah I think you would recognize both of them as like I know them

I've looked them up before I know your dad I haven't looked up your mom but for the for the public I think you would be like oh yeah that guy in like he was in like Funny Farm and Revenge of the Nerds Part II and Quick Change and, like, a slew of, my mom was in Moonstruck. Like, bit parts in 80s movies.

You'd be like, holy shit, that person. But I also saw them, you know, I would watch them, yeah, in plays. I would watch them in plays. I remember seeing my dad when I was like seven at a play at Hartford Stage. And he played a dude who left his family. And he had this monologue on the lawn of his house about the reasons he wanted to leave his kids. And I remember being like, oh, whoa, my dad has like a foot in the river of other humans thoughts that is it. I think it made them great parents because they I don't know, they put themselves in the shoes of murderers and right. And well, it's nice that that was your response as opposed to like, that's what he's really thinking.

Probably not till later. I mean, who are you now? I think about like, oh, I bet there were times where they had amazing days at rehearsal where they touched their monster selves and it felt like God was in the room and they cracked their ribs open and showed their

soul to someone and the other person was like i see your soul and then they came back to like me having shit on the rug they were like i'd love to leave now like i bet i'm sure that happened a million times do you ever talk to them about acting um a little bit i mean like sometimes i'm like you know what it's better if you just think i'm a candlestick maker like but they know i mean they've got it on some level there's got to be that weird mixture of pride and and envy yeah to the attention you're getting as an actress i mean i think that i knew you would ask that i I think that, I think I realized that we, I think generationally, just approach it in a very different way.

Like I think they were doing theater as I think of, like there's so much dark shit. Let's build a stage over it and tap dance on top of it and celebrate life and be ensemble members in this production of Hay Fever and like celebrate and escape. Right. And I'm like, let's rip that trap door open and use.

That sounds so elitist and like they weren't doing deep stuff. They totally were. But I think I was like fell in love with the magic of it when I was little. And then when I was like 15, realized like, oh, I have a darkness in me that might kill me. Let's try to funnel this into something. Right. into something um right so that's that's sort of like but that i think that comes with the generation that you know identified with those sort of rock and roll heroes and those raw weird people right like i don't know that their generation had them in the same way i mean i

would think that in theater you know like i would think that doing, you know, O'Neill or a weird ass Pinter play for them was, you know, that was the edge. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, for us is like in life, there were these people living these lives. Right. That implied something, you know, poetically enchanting, but dark and risky. And, you know, we respected and idolized the lifestyle of weirdos. Yes. And I don't think they had that. I think that and I still think the weird thing about what we do, even with GLOW, and given the world that we're living in currently,

I still get that feeling that no matter what I feel, you know, in my inner self or the house or the vestibule is that why are we entertaining anymore?'re in trouble yes you know so we should all be like just getting you know every tv show should be like how do we we got to fix this right yes but so there's always i think that element i think that is the the nature and the beauty and the importance of theater and comedy or whatever that you are dancing on that board above the darkness right in order to you know make sure people sure people don't drift away into hopelessness. Right. Yeah.

Or like the. Meaninglessness. Yes. Yes. And that our job is now to actually like completely dissemble the structure and be like, let's get down to anything that unifies us at all. Right. And now, yeah. And also the counter, the structure and the monster that it is, is emboldened and empowered and, you know, and completely consuming and destructive.

Yes. What's your brother do? I have two younger brothers. They're in like a business thing that he's explained to me so many times and I don't understand. It involves a desk and a phone and numbers and calls. And it's important, Mark. Oh, is it important? Of course it's important. It's difficult. Yeah.

But it's starting to work? It's starting to work. Oh, good. And he's going to fix it all tomorrow. And my youngest brother, Harry, has been working on sets in New York. In the theater? No, in the movies. In the TVs?

In the TVs. Like over at Silver Cup or something? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I like those people. I love those people. It's sort of like, how did you guys make this?

You built the whole thing. Yeah. Oh, thank God there's people with briefcases here who can put a subject and product together. I wish I could do, you know, there's always that part of me that's sort of like, this seems like the real work. Yeah. You built this inside another building and we live there. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Our privileged asses who get to be like Ernest Hemingway's in diapers being like, I'm feeling things, commercialize it. Yeah. I can't fill out that form though. Yeah. And then there's a guy with a hammer going like, here we go. Yes. Oh.

This is the life. But they seem to like it, I think. Yeah. I hope. Yeah. I always feel weird about that. It's like when you, can we do another take? And it's just like, I project a bunch of people going, oh God, here we go.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Camera people just like, oh my God. Oh yes. Yes. do another take and this is like i project a bunch of people going oh god here we go right yeah yeah camera people just like oh my god oh yes yes i mean it's very weird that we're like trying not to look fat and using our childhood traumas to like coax a ghost into the room in a scene right next to a dude who's like, traffic's going to be fucking horrible. It's so stupid. It's so embarrassing. Kind of. It's very embarrassing.

Well, what is it that you have in yourself? Then how do you validate it to yourself? Because I'm finding that the more I talk to actors that there is a party line on it. Uh-huh. Which is usually somewhere in the vicinity of like, I love telling stories. I'm finding that the more I talk to actors that, yeah, there is a party line on it. Uh-huh. You know, which is usually somewhere in the vicinity of like, I love telling stories. I don't know if I ever thought of that. Like every time an actor says that to me, like, I guess they are stories.

And you are telling it. Right. But I've heard several actors say that. Like that it's about, you know, honoring the story. Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't either. Have you heard that before? Yeah, for sure. I don't know.

I think it's a combination of trying to touch God within yourself and also distract yourself from the fact that there is no God. So let's entertain ourselves along the way. Well, what is it like? What is a peak moment for you? How do you know that you've done a good thing? I think I feel like I've done a good thing when I would say, I feel like the little scroll of that has who I am exactly written is so, that has who I am exactly written is so,

it feels like locked up so far inside and has always been that way. And I feel like I've always, I've spent my life like trying to shake people by the collar being like, you're not seeing me. I'm, and the person you think I am is not who I am and you're getting it wrong and I'm gonna die before you get it right.

And that terrifies me. And to me, when a scene is going well, I feel like that scroll is being read out loud and a person's like, I'm reading it exactly for what it says. Yeah. And that feels like church to me. You feel seen. I feel seen and I feel like communion with someone and I feel love. And I feel like I'm reading their scroll at the same time.

And it feels like important. Like my life has value and that like life in general has value. But I think as a result there's so much risk involved in that being your job because it feels so horrible when people are misreading the scroll well yeah in a public public way yeah i i can see that but i also don't but it seems like that crosses over into real life. You know, like, yeah, people project on the people all the time. because you are, in a sense, living in that present with that thing.

So if that connects, I can understand how that would equate being seen as opposed to, because I think that's the heightened reality of theater and what we do is that there's no reason to project. You're presented probably for the first time in your day or your week or your life if you go see a show that you don't have to do that this is who it is yeah right right so if you inhabit that properly and you feel connected to it then i could see how that all makes sense whereas out in the world when you're doing a talk show and you're you're pornified or

whatever the porn poodle and everything else is that you become this weird kind of thing that people will project on the celebrity in general or anybody who is a public life they're like oh that person's like this and we would like each other this person but when you're actually in the character you have the freedom to engage all of who you are you know without the projections because it's defined for you right and then you can do it Yeah. And I'm trying to do a thing that I don't know if it's going to work that I like, like working with Gina Davis, for instance, like I feel like I met her at the exact right time. Seeing that she, who is someone who in Tootsie was the most beautiful woman that ever existed. Yeah. And I feel like they let her cross the moat into the next place

because they were like, you're the most beautiful woman that existed. And I feel like she crossed that moat holding her brain in her hands being like, and this is fucking coming too. Yeah. Like holding that scroll. Like I feel like she did that and it's kind of really fucking hard to do yeah um and i i'm a hideous goblin i'm not saying i'm gina davis but i'm saying i feel like

i'm crossing the moat for the porn poodle reasons and i'm trying to be like and here's the scroll also the scroll is coming too and that's why i coming to. And that's why I try to write. And it's why I try to like on talk shows, even though I look like my porn poodle self, I try to like, like I tried to on Jimmy Kimmel tell a story about shitting my pants on the set of Nurse Jackie and they wouldn't let me. Well, how did that happen? The person. Tell it here. Well, you're all ready to tell it on national television. Yeah. Well, I shit my pants on set one day and I just feel like it was a, I had to be naked a ton on that show and I was really trapped in the porn poodle. I started to believe that the reason I was there was only porn poodle reasons and no Patti Smith monster scroll reasons. Well, they made you do a lot of that. Yeah, a ton.

Yeah. You saw my areolas before you saw my face on that show. Right. But I tried to Trojan horse in some Patti Smith stuff. By shitting your pants? Honestly, yeah. Maddie Smith stuff. By shitting your pants?

Honestly, yeah. I think that that part of me was kicked down the vestibule door and was like, you never fucking forget where you came from. So you did it like that in the middle of a take? Not in the middle of a take. I had just gone through hair and makeup. And that, I mean, that hair and makeup was true porn poodle-ness. Like a golden birthday cake on my head as a hairstyle and like TLI shadow up to my brow to play a doctor. Right.

And like dowry advertising clothes and shoes. I mean, it was. So you snuck away to shit your pants? I went through hair and makeup and then was walking to go change thank god i was not in that expensive costume and was like oh i think i'm about to shit my pants and then shot my pants and the second after it happened they were like we're ready for you it's like i gotta um you know what i'm gonna take a quick shower the person's like a shower what that's gonna set us back two and a half hours you're in full porn poodle makeup i was like you know what? I'm gonna take a quick shower. The person's like, a shower? What? That's gonna set us back two and a half hours. You're in full porn poodle makeup.

I was like, you know what? It's just to wake up my body. My head's gonna be out of the shower. It's my process. Yeah, and they walked away fucking diva. Yeah, exactly. And you're trying to clean shit up. Yeah, and I'm like sobbing,

having shat my Lululemons that I threw in the garbage. You gotta throw them in the garbage. Yeah. You can't wash them what are you gonna do it's like that's gone it's over and then it was the same studio as sesame street and michelle obama did an episode of sesame street like two days later yeah and they had like guard cia dogs like sniff all our rooms and the dog came in and looked at me and was like you shot your pants two days ago yeah

i hear that i i understand yeah you know you gotta do it yeah yeah but that dog saw my inner scroll yeah my inner patty smith and yeah the dog did the dog now the challenge is to make other you know conscious animals dogs can always see it yeah sure yeah that's right that's why dogs are so important they see right to it yeah yeah and if dogs are weird about it you're like i'm in trouble yes right yeah i'm in the vestibule now yeah so what what because i know you talk about it a lot but do you think um that are we are we in some sort of change around this shit in terms of like you know objectification and and um because i talked to gina about it some people say i talk too much

to gina about it they like i actually have been accused a few times of mansplaining gina's movie and her foundation to gina but cool that was that's fun. No, but I think it was misunderstood. I was excited. I watched the movie. Of course it was misunderstood. And Gina, oddly, and people don't know this, not a huge talker. No, she's very quiet. Yeah.

You, yeah. And when you're in this situation, I'm going to need a little more than like, oh, yeah, yeah. And I will tend to nervously fill in the entire episodes. Right. You're just a man talking, maybe not explaining. No, no. I was excited.

But do you feel that as vocal as you are, even if it's a metaphor, that there is something shifting? I do. I worry. do i worry i feel like right now we're at the crossroads of choosing whether we're going to be kylie jenner or francis mcdormand and i think that we're trying to straddle the line and i don't know how long we can do that like before what happens before we just default into Kylie Jenner. Yeah. And we get trapped in that. Like I, you know, on all these panels where we're saying now more than ever and how everything's changed and fixed, I'm in full porn poodle makeup. And I want to be in that because the male gaze representative in my brain is like don't let them see your true hideous self like yeah well how do you know i mean that seems to be

like that's that was part of the thing i talked to gina about is that the paradigm is what it is because we've all been swimming in the same ocean right that you know for generations or for centuries or however long it's been you know women would see themselves in relation to men right so they installed that inner male gaze in themselves yeah yeah well the patriarchy forced it to be installed right but yeah but the the sort of conception yeah the patriarchy was the water we were all swimming in so like so like in your life how does that start to change well i think like it's fucking really hard and it's i think like being a woman like i look back on so much of like my sexual experience, for instance, like that I feel like men take for granted that they have not.

OK, now we're speaking in generalities and it's getting risky. But I feel like most of the men I've talked to, their sexual experience has been their inner scroll. Patti Smith has had that experience. And a lot of my or girls it has to be filtered through the vestibule like i had vestibule sex for most of my life of like posing and trying to and like um playing a character or and not really being like am i enjoying this do i want to be here yeah uh and like friendships or like just filtering through a kylie sell male gaze room to try and like pitch yourself to the world to ask it permission to stay in the world yeah Yeah. And I think reclaiming those things

that were built by the patriarchy first is going to take a lot of time. Like putting on lipstick because I want to put on lipstick or brushing my hair because I want to brush my hair and not because I'm trying to get a husband before 20.

Yeah. But like all these things were founded by a society that we're trying to dissemble, but still fucking exists. I think the word dissembled as opposed to reconfigured. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is probably, you know, better. And I think that's what really struck me about the conversation I had with Gina that I had both sides of apparently. that I had both sides of apparently,

is that the idea of more representation for women and people of color in all different areas of life, equal pay and just not prejudice in relation to those things in employment. Because I think a lot of what we're talking about, it happens on all these structures of the paradigm. But in's personal life like you know you have a person in your life that accepts the scroll and and the house and everything else and and and you can be seen and i think in a lot of people's personal lives they struggle with that stuff but you know some resolution is happening and those conversations happen but it's in the the larger world of media representation and

employment where these things are really a problem and they don't really represent how people live their lives. So I think if you view the challenge like that, it becomes, you know, then you're asking something different of creators and you're asking something different of yourself. And a lot of times I don't think they want real representation. I think they want fantasy and I think they want... Well, that's what it is. It's like it's so much of being a woman in the world that you're still I think they want real years. I'm 33. I'm about to play the mother of a 12-year-old. And I, in my life, am just starting to think about

when I should think about having a baby. And, you know, I... A lot of times, you know, even on our feminist show, I'm... I don't know. I'm my smoky, mirror-iest self on that show. But the weird thing about that is, is I think that what it speaks to in terms of these other roles is that, you know, I'm not, I think that the paradigm of expectations from particular stories and the business that they will sort of encourage or the money they will make are kind of stuck, right? So like, you know, you're saying that different

stories need to be told, you know, that are appropriate to the lives we're living or to where you are in your life or to how this stuff really works. And I think that the thing about GLOW is it kind of does this interesting thing where, yeah, there's a spectacle of, GLOW is it kind of does this interesting thing where, yeah, there's a spectacle of, but the weird thing about the spectacle of objectification that it presents is that it's not really sexualized. And I don't know, and I'm a pretty sensitive, compulsively sexual person, but I don't feel that when I watch GLOW, the counterbalance of, you know, the sort of garishness of that particular period of sexualization is a little bit much, but it doesn't, it's not campy in the show, but the counterbalance to that is the wrestling and then to the struggles of these individual women. So it does sort of an

interesting trick that I think works, you know, most of the time. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. And I like, I can't, like in the other thing as a man that I'm trying to talk about on stage is that it's not I don't think it's most men's. I think they lack the ability sort of inherently to be empathetic to women in a specific way. They lack the ability to be empathetic to women in a specific way. Because we don't live your life. So we really have to be taught. Yeah, right. Yes.

Yeah. It's a weird thing, but I think it's true. I mean, you know, we can have sensitivity to the struggle of people. But, you know, what's happening, I think, in terms of, you know, men and women is that there's a demand to really understand the struggles that are inherent in just existing as a woman. Right. Which is, we don't know what that is.

Right. Yeah. Because I think you're so used to seeing post-vestibule women and you're like, oh, that's just how they are. And you're like, oh, no, I've been are. And you're like, oh, no, I've been. First, I was sobbing in the basement. And then I had to come into the vestibule to smoke and mirrorify myself, wipe my tears and then come out and be like, everything OK out here? You still up? I think that that's what's so exciting about now is that it's not this new thing that suddenly we're Frances McDormand finding ourselves.

It's from centuries ago, women screaming into their hoop skirts, like, sometimes I want to die. And sometimes I think that I could lift this table with the electricity in my eyes. And yet there's just no part of my day that lets me do that. My day is to plan this party and to be quiet and marry that disgusting, obese, rapey gargoyle person. And take these pills and then be diagnosed with melancholia. Yes. And be sent away. And lobotomized. Yes. Yeah. And I should have been a CEO, but instead I have to like have this beehive hairstyle and give up all my dreams, give up all my dreams and hold the needs of everyone in the room in my hands. And I wish I didn't have a constant bird's eye view of the pain of the world. But I do. Maybe someday that'll be funneled into like the tunnel vision that this fucker seems to have where he leaves the wet towel on the bed and enacts genocide because he doesn't hold the needs of everyone in the room in his hands. But I actually think a leader would be best to have a bird's eye view of all the pain in the world and not just rapey gargoyle tunnel vision. Yeah, I think we're all done with that now.

And I think that. And that's the last poem she wrote before she stuck her head in the oven. You know, my alias is Sylvia Plath. Now I have to change it. But literally, I'm checked into the hotel Sylvia Plath right now. And they didn't know who that was. No one does. No one does.

I mean, I think that we're having to learn the opposite lessons we're not all some women i know know it from birth but i betty am learning how to have fuck you tunnel vision sometimes i think i wasted a lot of time in my career being like, oh, I've found a career where this Patti Smith scroll darkness of holding all the needs of everyone in the room and feeling the pain of the world. I can funnel that into a career. But things like ambition and tunnel vision, those are things to be ashamed of. And that takes up too much space. So I'm not going to do that. And as a result

i didn't really work for a decade because i wasn't really like fighting for myself yeah but now i'm learning that i'm learning a little trumpian fuck you-ness to to be like yeah i'm gonna fight for myself so that now i can get this job where then i can use the beta parts of feeling the pain. And I think men are using, are having to learn the opposite lesson of like, there's not just you in this room. Yeah. And that woman next to you has been sobbing into her hoop skirt for 300 years. And maybe you should ask her some questions because she's going to be your

president. But then she'll just keep talking. Right. Right. That's going to be your president. Oh, but then she'll just keep talking. Right. Right. That's going to go over well. Here comes the talking. But what is this, the movie that they didn't set up a screening for me to see and that we can only talk women.

It's okay. But I hear it's amazing. Well, I mean. Is it amazing? I think it is. Did you see it? Yeah. It's called The Hunt.

Yeah. And I would say in light of what we're talking about, this is the first time that I feel like there's no vestibule at all. Oh, yeah. I'm just my gremlin-iest, McDormand-iest, Avril Lavigne-iest crystal meth self. Yeah? And I'm afraid I'll be executed for it. I mean, like, just because I'm like, oh, God.

You mean Betty's afraid she'll be executed career-wise for it? I'm afraid they'll be like, oh, you don't naturally have, like, eyelashes. Oh, you're not a porn poodle? Yeah, you're not a porn poodle. Oh, yeah. We got to put you down. This poodle's got to be put down. No.

But, no, I also like it's, yeah, I think character-wise it's sort of a lot closer to the mentally ill gargoyle woman I am. Yeah. So, we'll see. But I'm really excited about it. I remember when you went away to do it. So it was like really. It overlapped with Glow. And he sent some, there were some pictures, very, you know, nondescript pictures of you and.

Right. Looking crazy. Yeah, I look crazy. Well, it over, like it was a big coup that they let, you know, one of the rat-faced people of television in a the lead in a movie it was a crazy i was playing the drunk mother in a dog movie sequel when i made a tape for it and uh what movie was that did people go see it dog's journey is it out yeah it's out okay is that enough said i mean i play a woman who it's, it's a family dog movie, and I play a woman who is drunk the whole movie and hates dogs and children. I fat shame a nine-year-old in the movie, and I kick a beagle in the face.

Wow. Well, that sounds like demon stuff. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there was demon stuff. Oh, boy. We shot in Winnipeg. It was a dark time for me. And so I auditioned for this movie. And then when I got the part, I was like, holy shit, the like craziest version of my career that I never Netflix and Netflix was going to maybe not let me do it. And I like got some male tunnel vision. Fuck you, Ness. And I and but with the vulnerability of I basically like used vulnerability balls and wrote letters for two months. And Netflix executives and everyone. Yeah.

I was like, picture a girl with a dream. Run on sentence, college essays and they made it. I mean, Cindy Holland is my savior. I can't believe. She's in Netflix. There's two big shots. She's one of them. Yes.

And Ted Sarandos who also, I mean, so yeah. Well, that's great. Yeah. Oh, did you thank her and send her a basket? Flowers, yes. Yeah. I sent her a basket. Yeah, I'll be in her debt forever.

An edible bouquet. Yeah. Some melons on sticks. But even after all that happened, I'm like, huh, really would like that cup of soil. Yeah. Well, it sounds like that cup of soil. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you got some soil. Yeah. This felt like soil.

Yeah. Well, I mean, what does that metaphor mean to you, cup of soil? To me, it's like knocking down the vestibule door to go into the other metaphor. Oh, you feel like you need to kind of reconnect. Look at a picture of Jonestown. Right, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what do you, I mean, it sounds like, but it sounds like the work you did on there was, you know, pretty in the dirt.

Yes. Soily work. For sure. I guess I'm just being like, oh, maybe the point that I've been searching for is not to like find the work to channel the soil monster, Patti Smith stuff into, but like to have that be just integrated into my life. That's the trick, man. Right.

I mean, that's like the hardest thing is like, you know, the soil monster is one thing. I mean, that's easier to integrate than the fucking child you've been protecting. Right. That's the hardest one for me. You know, that if we're going to say this authentic self self like whoever you are emotionally or however you define your mental illness yeah mine you know manifests itself as being you know incredibly emotionally immature you know for whatever reason i know why selfish parents and you know you you put some other parent in place

and it wasn't great and yeah and so you just sort of guarded this fucking kid. And now I'm 55 and that kid's 10. And it's like, how do I get that up to speed? How does that integration come? I'm sober a long time. So integrating demons and understanding them, I can live with them. But the emotional thing, that's harder. Well, do you it's it's difficult to know when that child self feels safe because always yeah so you're like I think we're good are we good yeah or are you still feeling like the kids like I'm scared well it's not it's weird because it's starting to happen because enough other stuffs in place the okay right that there is a support system we're all here yeah yeah come on we're everybody here and loves you

yeah right and uh you know any and it comes out you know but it is it has something to do with it's a it's a man version but it's sort of like you know how is that going to be received? How like do I am I am I strong enough to to not perceive any sort of question or look or reaction to it as being an attack? 55. And nobody knows what I'm talking about. And they're usually thinking about themselves. And generally, if that kid gets through, they're sort of like, wow, what was that? Not like, that's, you're... Yes. Yes. Yeah. Or when you're like, okay, it's safe for the kid to come out, and then you see a person zone out thinking about themselves. And the kid's like, I just saw that. Yeah. Yeah. You don't like me. Yes. right. This is why I don't come out here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So I just let it out in bits and pieces and it's weird. And I do assume that, well, my problem is my kid's precocious and that's annoying. You know, any fucking 10-year-old who thinks he knows what he's talking about. Even your kid is precocious.

Yeah. Oh my God, right. Like I know he's talking about. Even your kid is precocious. Yeah. Oh my God. Right. Like I know he's annoying. Right. So like I don't know what to do about that. Right.

Yeah. God. And my little kid's like maybe when you look in the mirror just look at parts of your face because I don't like the whole face. I'm like what?

That's insane. Yeah. When you're doing your makeup like just look at the eye. Maybe even like hold a napkin in front of the lower part of your face. Yeah. When you're doing your makeup, like just look at the eye, maybe even like hold a napkin in front of the lower part of your, you're like, you are fucked up. That's crazy. And then I play women who are like, guess what I love my whole face. And the kids like, ah, people think we're like that in real life. That's so funny. So when you, when your kid it's basically saying, I told her not to show herself or mouth.

Yes. Yes. Yes. It's awful. But then people see a curvy, severe-looking blonde woman, and they're like, oh, she's obsessed with herself. It's our job to be like, you know. Take her down a notch. Yes.

Little do you know that I'm a seven-year-old like I can't stand that I mean I don't like it It's like I I feel bad about that that you know That actresses especially or women that like if they do anything the attack Fucking you know sexually repressed insane Men is like so immediate. it's so fucked up yes it's just like i don't even have a comment board on our website anymore because anytime i'd have a female guest on it was like what who the fuck are these people yeah right where do they come from yes yeah i don't even get it yeah i think they think that me putting a subject and predicate

together and being the breadwinner in my family is going to cancel out their existence. When actually the only thing that's going to be extinct is misogyny. Like, you are not going to be extinct. The holder of that misogyny isn't going to be extinct. And by the way, it's going to take so fucking long for that to be extinct. And the world's ending. So, like, you know, it's going to be like this weird competition between climate change and misogyny.

The world dying and misogyny dying. Yeah, exactly. Which one's going to go first? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Does the world win? Right. Does Mother Earth win?

Ultimately, she will. We just might not be here. Right. Yeah. There's no more misogyny because there's no more people. Exactly. That's the thing that's going to cancel you out. Yeah, right.

Not me self-actualizing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good times. So what do I got to do to, you know, we had a fairly, you know, intense exchange that, you know, I don't regret. But maybe earlier that maybe I should should reframe so if i'm gonna like start to listen to fish oh like if i'm gonna be like i'm going in because i still haven't

right and i still get occasional pesterings of like go talk to trey i don't know anything he's done i understand he's great okay i'll let it i'll let that be yeah i think you should talk to trey but okay but like what like if i'm gonna be like all right i'm gonna do this you know someone sent me a book like you know the fish everything book like what what do i what do i go like all right i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna enter what's the portal okay don't say a live show is not happening it's i don't think a live show is the portal i've brought friends to a live show they're like but i've been to dead shows. I get it.

Right. Like, you know, it's not going to be with some other planet to me. Yeah. I've done my share of, you know, trippy jigs. Trippy jigs. Listener, he just did a trippy jig and I'll never be the same. Never be the same. Good. There's a hammer here.

You know, I will say um as a precursor i'm 33 my first concert was their last concert air quotes yeah they were like we're breaking up and i was like we've got to go and i parked my car on the side of the highway with my friends and we hiked 19 miles into their 19 19 miles into their last concert. Where is it, in Vermont? Mm-hmm. And our car got broken into and I got flecks of glass in my face.

But I was like, it was worth it, man. It was the last one. And then six months later, they were like, we're back together. What about these scars? What the fuck, guys? Yeah. So, I mean, my husband,

who's nine years older than me, has been to like 300 shows. So I am not a person who, I fear the fish fan community. Yeah. And I fear speaking on behalf of them. But I will only speak about. What do you fear? They are terrifying.

There's a message board called Fantasy Tour, I believe, that is, they are, they will rip apart anything. But not based on gender, just based on you don't know fish yeah okay right or like fish sucks they rip apart fish themselves oh really but that's only on these message boards the actual experience of a fish show you're surrounded by the most positive wonderful people anyway i for me it's people who a is, and I think I said this last time, they have like a mathematical genius level understanding of their instrument and use that in the name of joy and exploration. Okay, I get that. What do I listen to? I'll make you a mix.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Really? Yeah, I'll make you a mix. All right. And to me, it was a thing that in my formative years when I was having vestibule sex and not looking at my whole face in the mirror. Vestibule sex in cars? Yeah, vestibule sex in cars, in woods, at keg parties, being like, this is so bad. It's amazing how many things are in the vestibule.

There's woods, there's cars, and there are keg parties. That's where it all happens. That's on the other side of the vestibule after I've been like, I'm ready. And the inner demon and inner child are bound and gagged in the basement. But in that time, listening to that music was a way of kicking down the vestibule door and just having something for me that I could swim in the ocean of weird and be like, I'm not a porn poodle person. I'm not a replaceable shame Barbie. I am a noodle who's high on this LSD. I'm a sweaty soil person. Yes, exactly.

Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's a way to eat soil. For sure. You know, now that I don't smoke weed from the second I wake up to the moment I go to sleep anymore, some of the 17 minute jams aren't as. Engaging. Groundbreaking to me.

How long did you, that was your thing? The weed? Wake and bake? Yes. Yes. How long did you, that was your thing? The weed? Wake and bake?

Yes. Yes. Like would find weed in my bra at the end of every day. But happy about it. Happy about it. Load it up. Load up the pipe. Yeah. I knew I had it.

Exactly. I had glittery mushroom stickers all on the inside of my Saab 9000. You don't smoke any weed anymore? I don't. I can't. It's, I can't, I mean, it's the same old lame story that everyone says. I feel that it just now makes me anxious. Doesn't it make the kid inside even more judgmental?

Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It gives that kid and the demon are like having a podcast together, being like. Alone in the house. Yeah. I'm not going out there. Yeah. Lucky because we can talk to each other.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. The kid's like, I'm not going out because I'm hideous. And the demon's like, I can make you more hideous if you want me to. Okay. Sure. Yeah.

I don't know. You're the only other person in here. We're going to have to go get some food. Okay. How's the husband? The husband's good. He's in- Cosmo.

Cosmo. He's in nursing school. Oh, that's good. Right. He's not off building huts and- He's not building huts. He's not building bathrooms. He's actually going to get his nursery.

Yes. Yeah. So he's been sadly dissecting cats, which I don't think he would really like. What? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot of cats around. I'm glad they're being used for good,

the ones that don't make it. Yeah. Yeah. Is this the end of his first year? He's in an accelerated program, so he's like right at the beginning of a two-year thing. Yeah. And then he comes out a nurse. And then he comes out a nurse.

And what's he want to do, the hospital? Or trauma nursing? Yeah, he wants to like stick his fingers in wounds and stuff. Right. He's got sickest fingers and wounds and stuff. Right. But, you know, in an ideal world, we'll have a couple kids. He'll be dad and then go to like Doctors Without Borders and I'll like go cry on camera for health insurance.

Yeah. And the kids will be like becoming actors. No. I'm hoping that by the time I'm ready to be pregnant, I can program in love's math and business. It's probably going to happen. Yeah. So what are you doing? Are you going to eat?

Yeah, I was thinking about eating. Oh, I think we've covered a lot. Great. Do you? Yeah, yes. What are you going to do today? Probably eat something, eat some fish. Right.

Oh, you got to go get porn poodled. I got to get porn poodled in order to then talk to Natasha, who I feel like is straight to pass the vestibule, which I love. She paid her dues. Hell yeah. To get past the vestibule. Yes. Her vestibule was a fucking disaster. The worst vestibule in the world.

Right. Yeah. Dirty, horrible vestibule. Yeah. I'm so happy for her. Happy for you. Are you excited about it? What do you feel

about the emmys um i feel excited about it and i um feel a little nervous about it but also like i just don't i don't know i can't tell like what's real and what's not yeah i know i'm not allowed to say that no but i'll tell you like you what is real. It's interesting to me because you've been doing what you're doing for a long time, granted, but not that I can see it, but it doesn't seem like you play the game that hard, and it seems like the respect you're getting is earnest. Thanks, Mark. And you deserve it. Thank you, Mark.

Thanks, Mark. And you deserve it. Thank you, Mark. Well, I also feel like I just want to say, like, I again want to say I love you. I love you, too. I see exactly who your scroll self is. And it's beautiful. Thank you. Yours, too.

Now you got to get out of my house. Okay, great. Bye. Bye. Wasn't that fun? Isn't she amazing? Betty Gilpin of GLOW and many other things that we talked about, but she is with me and we do some good work together on season three of GLOW.

GLOW. GLOW. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all of my tour dates in september and october you can go to swordoftrust.com to see where it's playing near you and watch it on demand all right me and delray are gonna go blow some minds in houston now boomer lives Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream?

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