WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1054 - June Diane Raphael

Episode Date: September 16, 2019

June Diane Raphael knows people are likely to mispronounce her last name (it’s RAY-feel) but she’s ok with it. She has other things on her mind right now, like being a working mom in Hollywood, getting more women encouraged to run for office, and the simple things like aging, the meaning of life, and the acceptance of death. June and Marc talk about all of that, as well as her improv background, her marriage to How Did This Get Made? co-host Paul Scheer, and what she learns from working with Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace, SweeTango Apples, and BetterHelp. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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what's happening mark maron here this is my podcast wtf how's it going on the show today June Diane Rayfield is here you might know her from her television work her film work her podcast work that show with Manzoukas and her husband Paul Shear how did this get made I believe is the name of that bit of business. But she's here promoting a book that she's put together, Represent the Women's Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World. Yep. She's also on Grace and Frankie. Been doing that for years now. I was happy to talk to her. I thought she was mad at me. It's been a long time since i've had a guest that i thought was mad at me but she wasn't mad at me so i figured out how to do a spotify playlist and share it on my instagram stories so grandpa's doing all right huh keeping up with the kids i know i know how to do that by the way the world is still ending and i'm not numb to it nor normalizing it i'm trying to

enjoy what i've worked for without destroying it more and without being really negative right now. Is that okay? In other words, I'm in a certain amount of intentional denial and ignoring it. And here was my plan though, is that, tell me if you like this idea. So I've got these dates coming up. I got Detroit, I got Chicago, which is sold out. I got Minneapolis, Toronto, all these are happening. So I thought, wouldn't it be interesting or clever or fun or something that I could engage my dumb brain with and waste time in creating regional oriented playlists on Spotify and then share them on my stories with the upcoming dates for the city That I'm going to

Where the music is from Huh? What do you think of that? Pretty good branding idea Wouldn't you say? I would say so Go to WTFpod.com For all the upcoming dates So that's my big Spotify idea Thank you for all the emails about my cat, Monkey. You're

right. I should just go to the vet. I'm going to go. I'm going today. As I told you, Monkey seems to be losing weight, but he's very perky. He's very excited and he's running around. He's eating a lot. He doesn't seem compromised in any way other than he looks a little smaller than he once did because he's a little old man now but uh enough people have red flagged the possibility of kidney problems hyperthyroidism pancreatitis problem like he's old and he's doing okay but yeah i guess i should go in it's just the idea man of getting these fucking cats in the cage i don't know what kind of cat you have or how how well they're behaved but to get monkey in the cage i think is not as hard as once he's in there he's gonna shit he's gonna piss he's gonna like howl fonda like is impossible to get in the cage she gets in the cage pisses

all over everything lynn was trying to get me to uh to get this sort of like little bag that you put your cat and you you put the lay the bag on your on your legs and you put your cat on your lap and then you wrap him up in this little bag and his head sticks out and it's real easy and just carry him to the vet like a little uh papoose is that what you call him like a little little baby in a little bag with his head sticking out and it's like not my fucking cat you know you can stop that little idea and put the cat on your lap for any amount of time i mean monkey will climb on my lap but they know man i there's no way i'm gonna be able to wrap my cat up like a little enchilada and bring him like a cute little thing to the vet my cats are terrified monsters get into the cage shit peel. It's a mess when I get there.

They don't want the vet to touch him. And I feel like I'm going to take a year or two off his life just to get his goddamn blood work done. But I should do it right. I can't just let him die. That's a bad feeling. You could have saved him. He had 15 years.

I'll bring him in. I get it. I'm bringing the cat in. All right. So the cat thing is being handled. I'll handle it. Sorry, I'm punchy. I drank coffee, man.

It's amazing fucking addiction, isn't it? Can I talk to you about that for a minute? Negotiating with the monkey on my back, the nicotine monkey. So I've been off for three weeks. I put on a few pounds. I had three fucking slices of mediocre pizza last night and I ate them like I was running out of time in my life. That if I was presented with a situation like you're going to die in about a minute and a half, there's nothing you can do about it. And the only option you have in this minute and a half is to eat as much of

this pizza as possible. So if you find any joy in that, you can either just sit there and wait to die, or you can eat as much of this pizza as you want in the minute and a half you have left to live. That's how I ate pizza in a public place at a party at someone's home yesterday. Most people were taking one piece and just enjoying the one piece. I took one piece, took a bite out of it, got mad that it didn't have tomato sauce on it, got a piece with tomato sauce, started eating that. Then there was another, then more pizza came out. It was a fucking pizza cluster fuck in my face, in my mouth.

So I, and like, I know it's not a big deal. You're probably like hey man people eat pizza i guess they do i guess yeah people eat pizza but i didn't feel great about it and then i get uh today i'm like you know do i have to live like this i i you know there was a thing that happens when you engage your addiction okay this? This one I thought was pretty minor, nicotine. But it puts a lid on the box, you know? If you look at yourself as a box, you don't want the box open

to where things can come out and go in easily when there's no way to regulate, you know, what's inside the box, because you're missing a roof. You're my being, my soul, my personality. The roof, it gets blown off the fucking thing as soon as i take out the plug nicotine was the plug it was the great leveler it was the thing that kept me grounded that kept me from losing my mind and i just take that out of the picture and all of a sudden hey man where's

my fucking roof where's the roof to me gone so the elements are coming in i want to get out uh it's raining i'm trying to rebuild the roof and i've got very few tools fuck it enough of that metaphor what i'm saying is like hey wouldn't it be easier just to fucking do it maybe you can manage it man just you know have one or two you know a day you know take it easy fuck i'm not gonna do it but that's what's going on so so i get rid of the nicotine three weeks in i'm like i can have coffee now let's go something's got to get me jacked i haven't had coffee in over a year or two and god knows i get enough coffee from uh just coffee.coop they said keep sending me coffee so i've had some of that that's pretty good but you know where that leads back to nicotine I get enough coffee from justcoffee.coop. They keep sending me coffee.

So I've had some of that. That's pretty good. But you know where that leads? Back to nicotine. Yeah. This is the dance I do, but it's with mundane substances. I'm not vaping. I'm not shooting dope.

I'm not storing fentanyl. I'm not vaping. I'm not starting fentanyl I'm not vaping I'm not shooting dope yeah I I think musical theater is gonna happen fentanyl is not for me I don't do that type of drug nicotine nicotine nicotine nicotine caffeine caffeine caffeine caffeine pizza pizza pizza pizza let's go on a hike what's the point uh i'll write the rest of that musical later it's called managing managing the monkey that's the name of the musical so folks look justice is there justice i'll tell you a story the roof is off my soul i've got no roof the structure of my being is roofless no roof just stuff flying out and flying in i need to put a lid on it man i find that with the lack of nicotine and with the lack of a sort of a regulating device for my emotions and and thoughts that you know i

and i think this happens or like you know where does the justice you know you see what's going on in the news you see people getting away with the shameless corruption and horrible kind of deregulating leading to the environmental disaster. It's just it's a fucking nightmare every day. So where do you find justice in the world? And it dawned on me that you find it in little things. So I got this car. I got a Toyota. I got an Avalon, which is a nice Toyota, but it's not Alexis.

It's for the person that's sort of like, I don't want to buy a Lexus because then I'll worry about it. And why don't I just get the Avalon? Because that's just a Toyota at the end of the day. It's not a Lexus that you have to worry about. So that's what I got. Now it's a nice enough car where you would think they'd have practical things for you to use when you say you want to comb your hair in the mirror. Now for somehow or another, the light in this car at night and comb your hair in the mirror. Now, for somehow or another, the light in this car at night and the lights available in the car at night do not enable you to see your whole head. It's just a fucking reality. Like if I park at the comedy store and I left my house with wet hair, these are big problems. These are fucking deep problems. These are what's happening now. If I want to comb my hair out before I go into the comedy store,

I look in the mirror with the light on, the interior light, not enough want to comb my hair out before I go into the comedy store, I look in the mirror with the light on the, the, you know, the interior light, not enough light to see my hair. Just, I can just see my slightly illuminated face, which doesn't help me. And then, oh yeah, there's a visor mirror with a light in it. Okay. I'll pop that open. Not enough light to see my hair, just my face. So what the fuck are my options then i gotta get my cell phone out turn the turn the light on on the phone turn it around to my head so i can try and comb my hair like that or just like not get so hung up on my hair hey man what are you worried about your hair for man you're all right you're you know you're one of a kind you're the real deal right

just go out with that whatever kind of hair you want, man. Own it, man. Just own it. There's no one like you. What difference does it make? That's my new one of a kind character. Hey, man. Yeah, I'm kind of an asshole, but there's no one like me, right? I show up. I do the work. I'm one of a kind. They'll put up with it. I'm one of a kind, man. Yeah. You like them? Yeah, man. I'm known known for my shit man and there's no one does what i do so uh you know i'm difficult but people put up with it you know why because no one's like me man one of a kind the point is like it's upsetting it's a design flaw and i had a moment where i'm like someone should alert toyota that at least the avon model does not have the proper design to self-groom

in a reasonable way. And I think that someone should be responsible for this. Take the hit. Where does the blame fall? Who is the guy with the sketches on his computer of how these lights work in this particular model of car to where at night with the interior lights on no can't see my hair with the visor mirror lights can't see my hair got to go in and just assume that i look all right of course you look all right man there's no one like you you're one of a kind don't worry about what people think no one's like you why would you worry what people think man you're fucking one of a kind hey hey so i haven't written that email stop me please just stop me let me cover that idea with pizza that that'll stop me from being the person that leaves a Yelp review about anything. Look, folks, listen to me. June Diane Raphael. I know her. I know her husband, Paul, from the comedy

world. We've met many times, and I thought that there was a little tension because I almost had them on when she made a movie with her writing partner, and I didn't. I thought she was mad at me. I'll cover that with her. She's got a book out right now, Represent, The Women's Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World. She co-authored that book. She always can be heard on How Did This Get Made, the podcast she does with her husband, Paul Scheer, and Jason Manzoukas. And all five seasons of Grace and Frankie are streaming on Netflix now.

Season six comes out early next year. This is me talking to June Diane Rayfield. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Were you mad at me? Let's address it. Were you mad at me?

No. For any period of time because i'm like i i was not mad at you mark maron i was frustrated because we have been trying to book a time to do your podcast uh casey and i when we were doing, we were promoting our movie Ass Backwards. Yes. Which I watched. Great. And I'm sure you watched in preparation for an interview that never happened. And yeah, see, I have no idea how down in the muck of your admin of the podcast you are.

Right, right. But there were, we rescheduled well you rescheduled um a number of times very close to the recording time yeah and at a certain point i just had to say i'm not scheduling it again for this time okay so i apologize apology accepted it was like uh it was a bad time maybe and uh maybe i i felt bad about it and i felt because the reason i have picked up on my anger well yeah i mean most people do no but i mean like i i think you probably had a right to be mad at me and and i understood that and uh and these things happen in the booking and the show business of course they do and i'm always happy to see you though i'm always happy to see you and i i do get really i think at that time in my life i also took that stuff very personally

yeah and that's silly and i wouldn't now because i reschedule i mean i have a general meeting i've been rescheduling for a year just like gonna keep on rescheduling that weird though yes and so I do now understand that that is actually quite it's quite natural right nature of things and people's schedules but at the time personal yeah that fucking asshole Marin well I just felt like uh well yeah I felt like this is my time and I've organized the day around this. Okay. And at a certain point, I don't know that he wants to do this. And I may need to let him know that I feel the same way.

Nice. And I felt that. And this is like a big thing. So that landed. Yeah. She's like, fuck him. He can dick me around like this. A little bit.

Well, yeah. Okay. it's all justified but like this is a long time ago and like things have happened of course the world is ending you have children yeah right at right at that time i decided to procreate just when i saw it all going down but it's weird though that you have to learn these things in this business. Because I took it all personally, too. I always took it all personally. Like when people, you know, the assumption of people big-timing you, that was another one. Where you have people you came up with, and all of a sudden they're not emailing back. What's that about?

I'll tell you what it's about. Usually, they're busy. Sure. I know. And it's the same thing. Like, I remember someone telling me, when you are in school and you have to walk into a classroom and you're late and you walk in and you feel everybody staring at you. Right. And you're so conscious of your body walking over to your seat and you're conscious of sitting down and, like, settling into the energy of that space. And just how

intense and experienced that is what grade is this this is any grade really but i mean i remember that just feeling like eyes burning through me and being so aware of myself and then and then when you're the the student in class and someone walks in late, you look up because something different has happened. Right. But that's it. Yeah. You know, that's kind of it. You're simply noticing like a pattern has been disrupted.

Right. Something that was happening is now different and my eyes are going there. Right. But there's nothing else i'm thinking of yeah yeah so i try to remember that that it's really not about me i tend to think if i look down i'm invisible i like if i'm not here yeah i'm like two-dimensional i'm just gonna be a shadow yeah i'm yeah you won't warming through the air you can't see this. I'm just worming through the air. You can't see anything. Yeah. I mean, I also was, so I'm 5'9".

I was my full height at 11. Really? That's a very tall girl. Wow. So I was also very aware of my body and my stature and tried to make myself similarly look smaller. Were you hunched? Yeah.

And I remember having an acting teacher at NYU pull my shoulders back and really force me to... Isn't that uncomfortable? Breathe? Breathe. When you did that, did you realize, this is how it's supposed to be? Oh, I cried.

I cried when she touched my shoulders. Oh, yeah, because when you open like that. Oh, it's so vulnerable. I'm unguarded. Yeah, absolutely. You can see it. Absolutely. You can see it all.

Yeah, you can see all my pain. I thought I was hiding it so well. I still feel it now. Yeah, I know. Do you do, are you like that? Do you walk like that now, regular? I don't walk like that regularly. But if I need to open up, like, I could just, like, that.

Actually, when I get massages, I often cry because I have so many, like, pain points in my body. Really? Mm-hmm. Like, just when they're pushed on them? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, okay. So, because I have that, too, and it's fairly general.

What do you think it is? Why do we have to keep crying? Well, I think our body stores grief and sadness and take a sip. Take a sip. And we're funny people. And we push it down. We enforce it. I mean, I don't even think it's necessarily.

Bad. Bad. Then we push it down. We enforce it. I mean, I don't even think it's necessarily... Bad? Bad or repressed. I think the pain of the human experience. Yeah. And just our bodies storing memories. Okay. So you're saying you're depressed. Are you in medicine?

I didn't know another way to say it. I just didn't. I couldn't figure out how to say it. I just didn't. I couldn't figure out how to get it out. No. Did you grow up with a huge family? I grew up with two older sisters. Oh, how are they doing? They're doing great.

We're very close. Really? Very, very close. Now, your name is pronounced Rayfield? Mm-hmm. Why did that happen? It's how it's always been pronounced. I don't know why I'm taking this tone with you.

It's spelled Raphael. Well... I'm just telling you. I don't know if you know that. So, it's actually German and it's pronounced Raphael. Oh, Raphael. Yes. Kind of like there's a little thing in there.

It's not Ray-feel. It's like Ray-feel. No, it's Ray-feel. Ray-feel. Ray-feel. Okay. Like Ray. Feel. Feel. Okay. there it's not ray feel it's like ray feel no it's ray feel ray feel ray feel okay like ray feel feel okay and it was always like that i had never changed and it's german yeah i have accepted the pronoun pronunciation of rafael i don't mind it um seriously is that not one of the pain points no because i actually like how... No, I like how... I know this is an audio medium that didn't play,

but I just touched my chest. I like the way Raphael sounds. Yeah. And so I don't mind it, no. And I do think people get so caught up in it. So what happens in that interaction is that I then have to take care of people who are worried they've said it wrong.

And so I- Oh, I'm sorry. Exactly. And then it becomes like a whole thing and I'm like, it's okay. I actually don't care. No, no, no. I'm sorry.

See, and I've got to respond to it and I've got to make you okay. And it may be okay, it may not be okay, but I'm irritated. Right, right. It's nothing you asked for. Yeah. To carry someone through it.

And I do think there's something important about struggling through a name. Yeah. I think that that is okay for people to struggle through a name. You mean with life? Or just with names in general. Like, not every name should be easy to pronounce. I got a doozy. No one can get it.

You're kidding me. It's ridiculous. Moran. Moron. Moron. Moron. Do you really have a mispronounce? Oh, my God. And I'm like, how can it be spelled exactly?

Wow, that's crazy. It's like Baron with an M. Moron. So when you're on the phone with like Time Warner. Mr. Moron? Yeah. Moran? See, I always say Raphael because it helps them wrap their mind around it.

You don't have to deal with it. Wait, what? No, because when they see that PH, they want to say Raphael. And so it's easier for me to then spell it once I've said Raphael. Well, this is just one of the ways you're helping people. Well, the other thing is whenever I book, I book all of our hotel reservations and all of our travel arrangements. And I always book them under my name. And I find it so satisfying when they call up and say, Mr. Raphael, your car is ready.

I just, I delight in it. I delight in it. How does Paul feel about it? He doesn't mind it. No? Mm-mm. Paul Scheer, that's your husband. Correct.

I've talked to him. I know him. Pleasant man. Funny. He's the best. Yep. But, okay, so you grow up two older sisters in Rockville Center, Long Island. That's right.

With parents. Yes, I had them. And what were they all about? I had wonderful parents. My mom was a New York City public school teacher. My dad was a union steam fitter, pipe fitter. What is that job? Yeah.

I was thinking about it on Labor Day yesterday. So that job is handling a lot of New York City's radiators. For the city. For the city. Yes. Well, not always for the city. I mean, he worked on other union jobs, too. But so pipe fitting was really dealing with all of the piping.

Wow. It's sort of affiliated with plumbing. But they don't deal with they more deal with like the the piping. Wow. It's sort of affiliated with plumbing, but they don't deal with, they more deal with like the air going through pipes. Right, not shit pipes. Exactly. They don't want to be mistaken for the sewage guys. Oh my gosh,

if you called them a shit piper. No, they are up in the clouds looking down upon vapor pipes. Exactly. Exactly. So he's a union guy union guy from the solid middle class like like rockville center was where they they set up shop to have a family it was nice yes we i would say we they bought one of they bought a fixer-upper and i definitely went to school with kids who were a lot wealthier than I was. Rockville Center is a fairly wealthy town.

Oh, okay. And I was very much so aware of that, what we didn't have there and the socioeconomic differences in our town. You could feel the presence of money. Oh, yes. You could feel the presence of money from afar. Right. You were just sort of watching it. Oh, yes. You could feel the presence of money from afar. Right. Like you were just sort of watching it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like how did you get out of it without having some sort of ridiculous New York accent or brogue? I worked it out. I do have it. And it does come out. When does it come out? Mark, it comes out. Mark Moran, it comes out. It does it?

It comes out in anger. It's when I speak to my sisters. Did you talk to her? Really? Oh, my God. It's terrible. Come on. Absolutely.

Where's that lady? Buried. You'd have to give me a full body massage to let her out. I'd have to make you cry and get angry. Yeah, no. I've really done a lot of work on my voice. Oh, my God. Let me just hear the regular one again. Oh, no. I've really done a lot of work on my voice. Oh my god. Let me just hear the regular one again. Oh god. Okay, so there are

some words I really struggle with. One is O-R-A-N-G-E. I would like to say orange. Orange. Yeah. Orange. Orange. Orange. That's what you would say. I would like to say that. Yeah, and what do you say? Orange. Orange. Orange. Orange. That's what you would say. I would like to say that. Yeah. And what do you say? Orange. Orange. I would like to say. Orange? You want to say orange? Desperately. Desperately with every fiber of my being. I would like to say pillow. Pillow. For pillow? But I do say pillow. I have to. That word I have to see and think p-i-l-l i have to like look at it in my brain it's so hardwired it's so crazy that you killed that person in you

she had to go why it's one of the best accents ever do you think so it's so terrible the long island accent come on oh oh I don't like it. I don't. I hear it now and I'm very upset by it. I mean, my sister who still lives in Long Island still has hints of it. And I can. Did they all try to kill it? No.

They both have a little probably more than I do. What about your folks? Well, my dad was from the Bronx, so he had a thick Bronx accent, and my mom was from Brooklyn. But they both had it. God, it's so sad that you would revise history like that. But that's the first thing you do

when you go to acting school is try to work your accent out. Is that true? Yes. I went to NYU and at the Tisch School of the Arts, at the Stella Adler Conservatory of Acting, we had to take voice, voice class was one of the first classes you took to make sure you had a neutral sounding voice. They told you that?

Yes. That seems crazy. I've never heard of such a thing. I didn't realize that that's what's happened. That's absolutely what's happening. That they were just like blank slating you people. Yeah. So that you can take on another accent.

I mean, I don't know. Maybe you could completely take on another accent without losing yours. No, but like, but isn't, but isn't losing yours taking on another accent? Like what are you taught? No, you're right. There's, it's problematic at best. You're absolutely right. I've never investigated it.

I was just happy. To be there at Tisch. To pay for that. To pay good money to sound differently. If the only thing you got at acting school was rid of that monster inside of you. I think that's why they sent me there. So wait, so did you act in high school high school you were you were tall yes and you're uncomfortable uh i were you were you were you were you ostracized well you were sociable right

you're funny not at all but i mean i played basketball i was the height was put to use sure i didn't have a choice i don't think I had a choice. I always love those people, like those people that, those really tall people that never touch a basketball. And you ask them if they play ball and they're like, no. No. Would you run into those people? And it's an act of resistance. It's the best. It's the best.

Never. I know. Because then they have to deal with what you do with your name, which is like, wait, really? You never. Why not? All the money. Or whatever. Or whatever.

You're supposed to. Yeah, that feels against nature. Exactly. Yeah, no, I enjoyed it, but I played basketball. I mean, it was just hard. I mean, it was whatever. It wasn't that hard comparatively. But it was, I definitely remember towering over my teachers wow forget about the

boys just the the teachers are your are your sister as tall as well yes but not as tall hmm where did it come from which my mom was tall oh really dad was tall oh okay um i don't like it didn't i you strike me as tall but not like like freakish. And I don't think I am. But I think if I if if I was an 11 year old sitting here, I'm 511. I'm five nine. You know, but you're I don't know. I didn't. Okay.

If you're 11, it'd be weird. It would be strange. Yeah, it would be. And that was I think for young girls, that's you are perceived as a woman before you are really you are perceived as a woman before you are really you are one and so that i remember quite well of just walking down the street and being so being a child and feeling like oh wow the world is perceiving me as a woman yeah is that that must be a creepy feeling oh terrible it's a horrible feeling yeah. Yeah, girls have it terrible because they dress up or they want to appear as women.

And then there's creepy guys going, bleh. Well, I mean, I was just wearing like umbros and t-shirts. But I was still getting attention and I knew, you know, I was not prepared for that. Right. Well, okay. Who is is i guess no one well i would like to think that i would prepare my children a little bit better what would you say to them do you have a girl no i have two boys until they tell me otherwise but i would say yeah there are adults who who are are going to be looking at your body

in a different way and you have agency over it. And I don't care who that adult is, but you can tell people you don't want to be touched and you don't want to be looked at. And yeah, I think I would try to, I think I absolutely would try to, especially a girl.

Well, yeah, the touching thing, obviously. The touching thing, obviously, but especially with a girl at 10 or 11, yeah, I think I would have that conversation. Like they're going to start looking at you weird. Yeah, and touching thing, obviously. The touching thing, obviously, but especially with a girl at 10 or 11, yeah, I think I would have that conversation. Like they're going to start looking at you weird. Yeah, and you're a child, and don't forget it. Yeah, and you're not going to know what it's about. Yes.

And we'll discuss that later. Yes. But for now, don't respond to it. Yeah, keep your head down. You're invisible. Yes. Work for me but uh all right so then you didn't know acting in the high schools i did the plays in high school and i loved it but it was also i know i'm not a singer which when you're doing high school theater like that that hurts yes your chances yes because there

was a fall play and a spring musical, and I just couldn't do one. Right. You know, I was the star of the fall plays, and then the musicals, I was like, you know, retail shop owner number three. Like, whatever I was, townsperson. So I loved that whole, what I loved about theater in high school is just,

it's so inclusive and just kind of like, we'll take all all we'll take everybody we'll take everyone the theater club theater kids I just love that yeah yeah it's nice

it's so nice they turn out to be pretty good people most of them yeah and it was just fun what made you decide you wanted to commit

your life to it oh because I loved it so much that was it yeah I loved it so much and I didn't want to do anything else. And you did, you have to, were your parents like, okay, no problem? My parents were incredibly supportive.

I don't know why or how. It's actually one thing I regret not being able to talk to them about since they've passed away. Like I, having children now, I'm like, wow, that must be terrifying to see your child pursue. Something so scary. Something so scary and scary. And yeah. And like without any security whatsoever. That's insane. Seemingly crazy.

Yeah. Nothing you can do to stop them. Nothing you do to stop them. Without them hating you. I'm just like, will they survive? Like, how are they planning on surviving in this world? Seems so scary to me. I know.

It's true. I guess I don't know that I've ever fully executed the empathy to really see it that way from my parents' point of view. I think they were kind of self-involved, but they must have been worried. It's terrifying. Your child is going into

the most competitive career. But isn't part of the terrifying thing is sort of like, she's going to be back home and we're going to have to. Oh, I don't know. I mean, for me, I'm like, well, I'm also in a different stage with children, but I love them so much. Like I'd like them to live with me forever. Right, right, right. And us to be a very strange family. She's my son son he's 40 yeah and we're married now paul's passed on and now we're together it just seemed to make sense

he's in the house and no i just i don't see that as a burden i'm like oh i think that's so not i would love that um but but i mean i also have thoughts on like why we no longer have intergenerational homes. And I think how that's negatively impacted so many people. But specifically women. Do you have thoughts about those? Well, yeah. I think we used to. What do you mean?

Like having the grandparents in the house? Having grandparents in the house. Having caretakers in the house. Being able to take care of the elderly in the home. Just having more. Hospital bed in the living room being able to take care of the elderly in the home, just having more... Hospital bed in the living room. Potentially. Having more access to that village of support.

Did you grow up with that? I didn't. I mean, I grew up with... I mean, we went to go see my grandfather every weekend, but he was in a nursing home. Right. But I do believe that we're suffering under this new model, which is we're all in our separate little houses. The generations are kept separately.

I don't necessarily think it's working. Right. People don't even think twice. They don't even think to put their parents in the house. They don't think to put their parents in the house. And I also think that because aging and death and mortality is so scary to look at, that keeping it away and sanitized, I think the psychological impact that has on people in their middle age,

where we don't have to look at it because we can keep them somewhere else. So we don't have a realistic sense of it. Yeah, we don't have a realistic sense of it coming for us. And we believe vitamins work. Right. We're doing all these other things. And then also, I think we're not, our values are misplaced. So I actually think it negatively impacts us and certainly elderly people in major ways. Well, there's such great sort of emotional and historical and human resources that I think culturally we tend to neglect now.

That there's no passing on of whatever that wisdom is, the humanity of it. Oh, absolutely. I mean, capitalism has, I mean, once people are no longer able to produce, we have no use for them. And I think the elderly are a perfect example of that. We say we value children. We say we value old people. And I don't think our society actually does because they cannot be part of the workforce. Right.

And also, I think people have gotten very self-involved. Right. And also, I think people have gotten very self-involved that just by just by their day to day, this sort of complexities of modern life and the expectations of technology have sort of kind of eradicated parts of the of the heart and the emotional sensibility that used to be second nature. Yes, and I think you're right about also not passing on verbal oral stories and traditions and getting a sense of history and getting a sense of things passing and people aging. I think that that's troubling. It is, and so what are you going to do? Well, I don't have, well i what am i gonna do i i mean it's one of those things well i mean we can we i mean i know you're very active and i want to um sort of move through like some of the stuff that's in the the book because i i this is related to the

book in a way i also okay so my my big not that this is my personal thesis, but I do feel like caretaking is undervalued. Yeah. And so much of it is not paid. Right. So the caretaking I do for my small children is not paid. The caretaking I did for my elderly father was not paid at the end of his life. You took care of your dad? Along with my sisters.

Yeah. at the end of his life. You took care of your dad? Along with my sisters and his girlfriend. We all did. I don't think I did more. In fact, his primary caretaker was really his fiancee and his girlfriend. But I think until we can have a conversation for women, especially on who's doing that work what is the value of it um and it also to me this extends to domestic workers too and the people who come into my home and my nanny who comes into my home to take care of my children and valuing and respecting that job right job yeah and also

the domestic workers who take care of elderly people and invalids, that work is also undervalued. And it's a huge, not only is it a huge business, but it's a necessary thing. And now with the boomers all creeping towards it. But we're going to be, my generation is right in the middle. Is one of the biggest sort of health industries around. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's required.

Yes. But we also, I believe that these workers are underpaid. Sure. And undervalued. Yeah, of course. When they're doing...

And a lot of old people are mean. Sure. Yes. It's very hard work. Yeah. Well, the other thing people don't realize about what coming into a domestic environment is there's it's not like there's an hr department no do you know what i mean you are interfacing with years of god knows what god knows what and you're in a home setting it's not a professional setting setting as you or I might understand it.

Right. And so I do think professionalizing it is incredibly important for the safety of workers. Sure. And also for the value of the work that they do and provide. No kidding. Yeah. And my brother wants to get involved in the field somehow. He wants to get involved with home care.

And there's a lot of stuff going on with it. Yeah. That's sort of interesting. But yeah, I do think that those people are probably underappreciated.

Yeah. But I also think this extends to just sanitizing death in general and the way I know. we sort of grieve

and how we process death and how we process bodies and all of it. I'm not good at it. Well, it's very hard. Are you? I don't think I don't necessarily want to be good at it. I've grieved. I've grieved the loss of my mother suddenly.

I grieved the loss of my father after a long illness. So I've had sort of both a living grief and then also a very sudden traumatic one. I guess I'm just curious about how we want to be comfortable around it. And we do that by kind of denying it, denying like actually seeing bodies and also talking about it and being with it and yeah i think that's true i i deal with it myself now in my head yeah well just sort of

like because my parents are still alive and yeah i've lost quite a few friends or people i've known but i'm still a little weird with it right now My mother's weird with it and everyone's been weird with it. Yeah. I think most people are. They just want to keep it away. Yes. Yes. Keep that fucking death away.

Right. Right. And it fucks everything up because it is really one of the only inevitable things that we're all going to experience. We're head and hurtling toward it in this moment. Yeah. I'm hurtling. I mean, it's not to experience. We're head and hurtling toward it in this moment. Yeah, I'm hurtling. I mean, it's not that fast.

We're heading there. Sure. We're closer to it now than I was when I pulled up. Okay, that's fine. So again, this is probably a depression problem. No, and I think that's the interesting thing. I actually feel like I have a much greater capacity for joy and happiness do you yes thousand percent because of you've dealt with the grief and you understand I'm dealing with it I don't

I don't see it as something and I think this is can be some of the misconceptions everybody has a different experience but for me I'm like I think the desire is like oh you did that like that that was that time and then you figured that out and dealt with it and now you moved forward yeah and the truth is it's with me every day sure it's part of every decision i make and it's it's and the inevitability of it yeah i i see see this is like this is the thing i'm playing with in my brain is that i think if people had a like if they weren't prone towards magical thinking and denial and terror of death that if there was a reasonable way for human beings given that they have consciousness to just really truly accept it as just what happens, that we'd all be better.

I agree. But it's a tall order. You can do it intellectually. Like I can sit here and look at you and go like, yeah, I'm gonna die. I mean, you know, I just hope it happens quick. Fine, yeah, but like, I know those things are true, but in my heart, it's sort of like,

if I really get to thinking about it, like if I'm laying in my bed, like, is it just nothing? Is it just nothing? Is it just like I'm here now and then it's like nothing? Do you do that game? That's a fun game to play. Yeah, of course. But I mean, I also think like it is, it will be terrifying. No matter how much work one does around it.

Might be easy. Yeah. I don't know. If you don't know, it's coming. That is a blessing. I do think it is a blessing. For sure. Well, but I guess that's what I'm saying, though, about the sort of fear of aging and

also putting old people in places that are easier for us to contain them and to contain aging because we don't want to look at it. We don't want to look at the body failing. What a ripoff, man. You go through your whole fucking amazing life, and then your family just puts you in this place with strangers? Maybe you couldn't get along with people your whole fucking life, and there you go.

You're in a room with that guy. I know. Work it out. Work it out. We'll be back in a week. You'll like it. That's your payoff? For making it that long?

I don't want to be glib about it because I know a lot of people don't have choices around that stuff and you got to do what you got to do. But it just seems to me that the entire undertaking, this is another problem. Yeah. This is getting heavy. I'm ready for it. entire undertaking this isn't another problem yeah this is getting heavy is that is like

is it what is the fucking payoff well i mean i don't know i don't know what it's like to be that old but i do think that the elderly have a lot to offer um for sure i think personally i'm so obsessed with i think i'm a very vain person. I'm obsessed with how I look. I'm very aware of that. I think I spend a lot of time on it. I think there might be something really freeing about letting that go. You can do it any time.

Not right now. Not with this book coming out in the national press I have to do. It's not a good time for that, Mark. No good time to just let the hair go and no makeup no no no no that's not today that's not today it never feels like the right day and by the way i respect those choices well okay let me be i don't know what my mother's real hair color is i didn't i never knew what my mother's real hair color was No idea I don't think she knew What is it now? It's gotta be grey

It's blonde Well that's a big decision that women make So Paul's mother His stepmother Just went grey And that's a big thing for women Not in Canada Everybody's grey?

A lot of gray in Canada. It's perfectly normal and nice looking. Oh, fascinating. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think a chic gray bob looks great. Right, right, right. Just not, you're against a kind of messy gray. I'm not against it at all.

Again, I don't have the courage. But you know, you don't have to do it yet. Well, here's the thing. I also enjoy makeup. I enjoy all of the sort of trappings and prison of my own making. So it's complicated. No, I understand. So outside of the activism right now, this is something you sort of evolved into.

You've done a lot of stuff. You started at where? UCB, right? You were UCB born? Like, or Tisch School. I started at Adler at Tisch and then. Adler at Tisch, is that different than,

is that the acting program or was that a separate? So Adler's, so. Is that sort of like the Green Berets? So Tisch has the drama department and then I think they, I actually have no idea what they have now the adler you gotta really go in deep adler was known for like the different acting students were

in different studios and adler students were known as like bringing a lot of props for their scene work no kidding that was their reputation that was signature. Here she comes with the cello. For whatever reason, we would have to set up scenes and bring, I mean, I remember bringing like a desk from my dorm room.

Like, what was I doing to set the scene? We were all about like, you have to have all of the stuff. That was an instruction? Yes, for our scene study classes

when we were doing Three Sisters and Uncle Vanya. They're going to steal your way of talking and make you bring desks? And make you bring furniture. This sounds fishy. Yeah. This was the method? 75 grand a year. This was the method? It was a part of it

which now seems insane. Like we couldn't imagine that those things were there. Well, no, it's nice to have them, but you would have thought they'd have them around the theater. Yeah, no. Like available. No. Like a desk. People were you would have thought they'd have them around the theater. Yeah, no. Like available. No. Like a desk. People were bringing lamps.

They didn't have fucking lamps and chairs and a desk or two. No, they weren't available. A couch? No, it wasn't like- For scene study? Nope. Maybe there was one couch that was used for cross-period scenes. All right. And that was a two-year thing?

That was four years. Four years of bringing your own desk? Yeah. It sounds insane. I mean, I remember because Casey and I, on September 11th, I was at NYU. I think we were in our last year there. We must have been in our last year. Yeah. And we got into the Tisch showcase where agents were coming. Oh yeah, those. And I had an internship and I was in the subway when, well, let me be clear.

Yeah. I was, when I got out of the subway on 57th Street, I heard that a plane had crashed into the building and I was carrying all of our props. So I think I had with me like a lamp and like an ottoman, like I was carrying. And then I,

once everybody realized what was happening, I had to get to this, my boss's apartment on the Upper West Side and very kindly let me stay there. Because while your house was downtown? We lived in Brooklyn, so we couldn't even get there. Oh, right, right.

And I just remember carrying like all of our props through Central Park. The worst day. Oh my God, the worst day. And at that time, thinking we're under attack. At any moment, another plane will fall out of the sky. And I'm holding all my props. For dear life. Did you create some sense memories?

Maybe that's what's right there. Maybe that's it. Yeah. Maybe that's why you're crying during massage. Probably. Because that day, you couldn't be as present as you wanted to be. That's probably right, Mark. Because you were worried about the props.

Yeah, and why wouldn't I have abandoned them? They were probably things you wanted. I think they were NYU property. Oh, they were dorm room props? Yeah, and why was I still, why wouldn't I have abandoned them? They were probably things you wanted. I think they were NYU property. Oh, they were dorm room props? I think so. But no, they couldn't be. You were living in Brooklyn.

Oh, yeah, I guess we were in an apartment then. Oh, my God, really schlepping shit. Oh, yeah, we would schlep shit all over town. So you did four years of this. How'd it go for the showcase? Not well. We didn't get it. Well, we didn't get for the showcase? Not well. We didn't get it. Well, we didn't get into the showcase. And when we auditioned for it, we had to, I think we did two scenes, one from that Diana Sun play.

And then when we changed, we had to change into another costume and come back for the other scene. And when we left, I remember staring at Casey and like her fly was open, just open. And then her blouse was like completely mismatched. And I knew we were in trouble, that we had not presented our best selves. It was very hard. I mean, it was a very competitive. But you did it together? Yeah, we did it together.

Like you were a team in college? We weren't a team in college, but we were very, we were best friends. And so we were very connected. So you were there together, but you didn't do your, you did scenes together? Yes, we did a scene because we were trying to get into this showcase and you could do scenes. With somebody. Okay. All right.

And you just knew in your guts. Yeah, I knew. It wasn't your night. It wasn't. It wasn't your night. No. So you graduated without representation. Without representation.

And then we started, it was really Casey who found UCB. Was this the old one, the original one down in the 20s, 23rd? This is the one, yeah, under Grissidis. Oh, no, that's a different one. That was the second one. We weren't at the first one. And we started writing a sketch show before we found UCB. And somehow, someway, because I had never taken a class there,

we got the Thursday night 8 p.m. slot to do our sketch show there. And that's a big deal? Yeah, it was a really big deal because we weren't homegrown. Right, okay. So it was a very big deal for us to have that show. And then from there we started taking classes. Yeah. So it was just a strange way in.

And you went through the whole process? Went through the whole thing. We went to the Aspen Comedy Arts Festival. Oh, what year? I think it was the last year. Maybe second to last year. Right. Yeah.

What came out of that? Well, we got agents and we started writing. With the same agent? Still with the same agent. No kidding. Wow. Good for you. Yeah.

And yeah, that was the beginning of all of it. I mean, it was interesting because at the time, you know, we only wanted to have the sketch show to feature ourselves as performers and actors and just get acting agents. Right. And we were pursued only by the lit agents of all the big agencies.

Huh. Which I remember taking as a huge insult. It's actually a compliment. I know. But at the time, I was like, we're not attractive enough.

Like, we've got to accept it. Oh, God. We have to accept it, Casey. Like, we're not attractive enough to be actors and we are being told that no that's devastating oh we were you guys really are devastating you really are like the characters in ass backwards on some level at that time we were

that was autobiographical we were so upset and now of course i'm like that was so insane but what was that but that movie like were those characters that you had created, were those existing characters? No. No. They were sort of based on our time in our 20s and just what we were up to in the East Village of New York. But they weren't, yeah. Yeah.

They weren't like characters we did in our show. Oh, they weren't. But that experience of making, like, you know, after, I mean, you did a lot of stuff. You seem to work a lot. You're one of the cool kids. What did you do in Zodiac? I played Mark Ruffalo's wife. Oh, I got to see that again.

Very small role. Oh, it was? Mm-hmm. Was that fun, though? Dark Fincher? Did you have to do a million takes? Yes. And it was the first job I ever had. Have you talked about this on your show? The number of takes you? Dark Fincher? Did you have to do a million takes? Yes. And it was the first job I ever had.

Have you talked about this on your show? The number of takes you did with Fincher? I don't think I have actually. So you did a little? I mean, I love him so much and he was so kind. He was actually so kind to me. David Fincher. Yes.

I just didn't. That was the first professional job I ever had in front of a camera. And I was doing 40 takes minimum. Do you know I did two hours with him in the garage and he wanted to do it again. So we haven't released it. I have a David Fincher interview in the can because he wasn't happy with it. That's crazy. I mean, that all lines up.

Wow. But you had a good experience, huh? No. I remember finishing and thinking, like, I don't want to be an actor, I guess. Or I don't want to do film. Like, I thought that's what it was. Yeah. It's kind of weird, right?

To do a movie. Yeah. It's like stifling. Listen, I love his movies. I think he's a genius. I was so paralyzed by it. I'm just talking camera work in general it is disillusioning you know there's sort of the continuity of doing the work it's where you really realize like you know your romantic idea that you come into it

with when you do plays or whatever or whatever you think being a star is going to be it becomes a job real quick yeah real fast you know. You know what I mean? Like, are we going to do that again? Oh, really? That was so good. Yeah. And then by the time they go, that's it. That's good.

That's a take. You're like, that was the worst one. I know. And then also, I really struggle with just like the big vacuous lens and just feeling comfortable with that. What, just a camera? Yeah. Yeah.

I never know. I'm not real good at knowing what camera's mine or whether it's on me. Oh, I ask immediately. It's the first thing I ask. I know. I should do it more. But I think I always give it my all every time. I'm better now.

I do not. Oh. I know. I know when they're doing my coverage. Okay. I'm not dumb. I do not. Oh. I know. I know when they're doing my coverage. Okay. I'm not dumb. I mean, the reason why I do ask sometimes, though, is because if I want to improvise or find something that I know is going to screw someone else up, I wouldn't want to

do it in someone else's take. Right. Like, I can use that editing brain of like, oh, they'll never use that there. Right, right, right. So. Yeah. Like, I can use that editing brain of like, oh, they'll never use that there. Right, right, right. So, you know, I don't want to mess up their side of it. Right. Yeah, it's nice.

Yeah. It's like, it's a tricky business. It is. It's so technical. I think so people don't understand. It is so, it's such technical work. Yeah. When you start to do take after take and you're like, what was wrong with that one? We had a lighting thing.

Like, what does that mean? What does it mean? How could you have a lighting thing? I never believe them when they say that. I should stop believing. I think they're just saying it to protect. Oh, man. Protect us.

So what was the big, like moving out of, so you met Paul there at Uprights. And you guys fell in love? Mm-hmm. That's nice. What were you doing? It was the best. How did it happen?

Well, we were both dating other people. We had both just come out of long relationships. You were dating other people or you were coming out of a relationship? Both. We were both heartbroken from very long, intense relationships. relationships and you were dating other people or you were coming out of a relationship both we were both heartbroken from very long and intense relationships and then we were just using people to feel better that's correct okay i mean we yeah yes okay um it's fine it's the way it is i've been using what i mean been used. Absolutely. It really is okay. It's hard.

It's hard being a person. It is. So we were just friends and he was giving me and Casey notes on our sketch show. Owen Burke, who was the artistic director of the theater at the time, said you should bring in Paul. He'll give you some feedback. I mean, we had come from NYU, so all of our sketches were like 20 minutes long. Right. You know, we'd written all these one-act, and he was like, they cannot be longer than three minutes. And so we were, I'd never written a sketch before, so Paul just gave us

notes. I don't think we took any of them, but we became friendly after that. And then we would just hang out all the time. I mean, it's a real friendship turning into something after probably about six months. That's nice. Yeah. And it stuck. It did.

And it's been how many years? So this October we'll have been married for 10 years, but together for almost 15. That's a big one. What is that one? Like the paper one? Or what's the 10? I don't know. I'm not subscribed to it.

I don't know. Yeah. Well, you subscribe to 10. That's a real number. That's a real number. Yeah. And you have kids who are how old? Five and three.

Oh, so they're less than, they don't require the full on baby stuff anymore? No, but it's- Three's young. Three's still young. and there's a different level of engagement now it's they're people yeah yeah and you're like oh i'm i'm the steward of your childhood like you are having memories and right and their personalities how's the personalities turning out wonderful yeah yeah i mean it's such a like the can you see a sense of humor and like you know yeah totally i

mean the oldest is much more internal and much more sensitive five yeah and feels very deeply and is like connected to what other people are experiencing and the younger one just like is all physicality and like oh yeah physical instinct and eating and wants to touch soft things and just is of the body so much. That's funny. That's funny. My cousin's got a pair like that. Yeah. Two boys.

One sort of sensitive, artistic. The others are just a brute. Yes. It's amazing to see. Two profoundly, the two sides of the male archetype. Yes. Represented. Yeah.

It's incredible. In your house. But you still work ape. Yes. Represented. Yeah. In your house. But you still work a lot. Yes. Do you think I would stop working because I had children? No, no, no. It just sounds like a lot of work.

Oh, yeah. It is a lot of work. Yeah. I don't know if I was trying to imply that. Let me try to investigate. I wonder, the only thing I would ask you is, would you ask a man the same thing?

Are you still working with young children? Because I do think, I get the question a lot when Paul and I are out together. Just reporters will ask me, where are the kids? They'll never ask him questions like that. So I do think there's a lot of assumptions about women and mothering where we want them to be working, but we're concerned. I guess I think it was more like who chooses to do what. You know what I mean? I think people make, like some people,

I don't know where you're at with that. I don't think I was trying to suppose that you shouldn't be working, but some people choose to do something with their kids. I don't know how people handle kids. I don't have any. Yeah, I mean, I think that I do choose to be with them a lot. And I, it's very challenging.

Yeah. And I think most, most, I think the troubling thing is like a lot of women are in this position where you're kind of apologizing for working. And then also apologizing for spending time with your kids. So you're not, there's not a lot of understanding and support for, I mean, I even have trouble with the term working mother. Yeah. As though mothers who stay at home aren't working. I mean, they're doing harder work than I'm doing, certainly.

Oh, my God. I can't imagine. But I can't imagine it, and I don't want to do it. Right. But it weighs on me every day that I think it's sort of a tension I just live with which is how and also like trying to kind of investigate my own ideas of time and like does is valuable time spending like eight hours a day with them I don't I don't know because I don't think I'm offering them the best of myself. Yeah, I don't think my parents are around much at all. I mean, I had two working parents.

Yeah, right. Exactly. And we are okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know why people ask that question. It's a little weird because like my parents, my dad was certainly never around. And I think my mom really tried to keep herself busy. Did she not work outside the home?

What was she doing? She used to substitute teach. She didn't really engage in real jobs until I got older, until they got divorced, I think. So she was around, but not hanging out with us that much. Yeah. I don't know what she was up to. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's probably, I would have a hard time being with my kids every second of the day. That's not something I want to do. No, of course not.

I don't think that's the best thing for them either. Who the fuck would want to do that? It's inappropriate. My mother was around a lot when I was three. But by the time you're like eight, it's like, oh my God, we can destroy them. I fully support your need and desire to not spend time with your children. Thank you. Thank you. I'm passionate about it. I think it's a great cause. I think more mothers should just not spend time with their kids.

But now this Grace and Frankie thing has gone on a while. Yeah, we're in our, well, season six is coming out and we'll start shooting. They're just going to keep going, huh? Yeah. Well, I don't know about that. That's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you.

I mean, it's like I can't imagine what that whole feeling must be to work with those particular women. It's amazing. It's crazy. I've talked to Jane Fonda. Lily apparently doesn't like to do these things alone. Did Lily do it with Jane? No. I'm sorry.

That was offered. Yeah. But I'm like, I can't, I don't want, it wouldn't be fair to either of them or me. Yeah, I understand that. You know what I mean? I understand it's easier. Yes. It's easier to have a friend.

Yeah, kind of. But like, it gets a little weird if you want to ask, like, okay, this is for Jane. You know what I mean? You be silent. Yeah. Jane and I had great, that was a great time for me. Yeah. And Lily, I think, would also have a nice time but

i don't know why she did um you know it's okay yeah but what have you like in terms of like coming into this after having a certain amount of experience yourself and doing television of different sorts what what do you what are you taking away from working with these two particularly amazing women? A lot. I feel, well, I think they've really taught me to be a lot braver as a performer. Oh, yeah? Yeah, definitely. And to not be afraid, to stop worrying about doing it right or pleasing the director.

For me, that was a really hard muscle to get rid of. The idea of like, oh, I want to be right. I want to be a good student here. I want to do the right thing for the people who need it to be right. Right. You know, I think they're both so comfortable in failing. Right. And that has been the biggest lesson for me.

It's like, oh, it doesn't have to be right i'm on i should be failing actually every day here right just taking chances yeah and also they've got nothing to fucking lose it's extracurricular for them at this point i mean they're literally doing it because they want to right yeah you know which for me has been so amazing to be around i feel like on other things i've worked on, just talking to actors and stuff, everyone's kind of listening to what other people are auditioning for or getting or what's going on. And on Grace and Frankie, like they're there. Yeah.

You know, they're so fully like there. Right. Yeah. This is the thing that's going on. It's not outside of here. Yeah. You know what I Right. Yeah. This is the thing that's going on. It's not outside of here. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And it's so refreshing and it's the way I want to work from here on out. And it's amazing. And when you go out into the world, you have a lot of nice like middle to older ladies that are like, there's that lovely lady from the show. Yes. I have. Yes. Totally.

Totally. But people have a love-hate relationship with my character, so they love her. Yeah. But they're also, you know, like, why are you so mean? You're such a bitch.

Like, you know, so I get both things. But yeah, the fan base is crazy for the show. And it's not just older women. I've been shocked at how many 19-year-olds, 20-year-olds watch the show. That's great.

Yeah, they love it. It also speaks a little bit to what we're talking about in terms of the elderly. Yes. Great examples. Great examples and examples of like, see, that's why I think Rais frankie in its own way doesn't get like the critical love it doesn't get all of the sort of zeitgeisty stuff no but i do think in its own well it has a huge viewership but in its own way it's actually very quietly subversive and is presenting another option for aging that looks different,

that's outside of a nuclear family, that's outside of like a traditional partner, that's two friends living together, taking care of each other. Yeah. And are sexual and are angry and are all the same, are every emotion. Yeah, they're like they're fully rounded humans, these older people. Yes. But since

the Golden Girls, I mean, that hasn't really been a punchline, but they haven't been real characters. Right.

I think the Kaminsky method's trying to do that too with the men. Yeah, I haven't seen it. Well, you know, it's a little

sticky, but it's good. Yeah, it's Alan Arkin and Mike Douglas. Yeah, I mean, I watched that. Yeah, I think you guys should do a crossover episode oh my god that would be incredible

be kind of hilarious they just meet yeah but that's a steady gig and that's great do you do the podcast is that weekly oh no we all i mean how did this get me yeah how did this get made we do once a month really yeah oh I didn't know that yeah so that's a fun thing that's just a fun thing hmm but my my producer Brendan

listens to it regularly and he said that you know over the last couple years he can feel the the sort of the pull of

of politics and doing the right thing oh that's fascinating which would uh huh where you just sort of like and it politics and doing the right thing. Oh, that's fascinating. Which would, uh-huh, where you just sort of like, and it's like, oh, Jen seems to be talking about some real shit over there. Well, as the only woman on the show, there are times where I actually don't feel like it,

but I then feel sort of I must address some of, you know, and yeah, certainly, I don't think, I mean, what choice do we have but to address? Well, I know that's the thing, though. Like, it's a weird thing that I've been experiencing on stage and certainly on this show, which I used to do politics when I was younger. I mean, I did talk radio, for fuck's sake, for, you know, lefty talk radio. And we made a decision coming into this show to not do that to make it more existential and make it more about human stuff but then it just got to a point where like you almost feel shitty for being entertaining like in a way it's sort of like our job is to

entertain but it's like there's part of me it's sort of like haven't we been entertained enough yeah isn't entertainment isn't entertainment time over isn't the puppet show done now yeah recess is done let's get back in there yeah i totally understand that well i mean i assume that's where this book came from yeah although i think the book is funny too i mean i don't see the book i think the book is funny, too. I mean, I don't see the book. I think the book is taking a pretty dry subject, which is running for office. Represent the woman's guide to running for office and changing the world. I mean, it's it's that seems real. Yes, it is totally real and it's tangible and it's like factual and it's something you can kind of sink your teeth into. Were you brought in to be the funny person um no the book was my idea but i brought um kate black in from she was working on emily's list at the time and i mean originally i was just going to say

i was just calling to say you should do this book this is a book idea personal stories ways to get involved like these are like i think very few people men and women know the the sort of way in or the import of their civic duty well and i believe that that's intentionally so i mean we don't really teach civics anymore yeah of course it's intentional but by the wrong people of course yeah there is a sense that there's a luxury to leading that you have to be all these things, you have to have all this money, and you have to have degrees until you could possibly engage in that way. No, you just have to be a corrupt piece of shit

that is willing to sell their soul out. That's the other thing. I do think that a representative government is a better idea. Sure. I just believe that. And I also think we shouldn't keep this process away from people. There's actually nothing mysterious about it. Sure. You know, I just believe that. And I also think we shouldn't keep this process away from people. There's nothing, there's actually nothing mysterious about it. Right. But it's, it was always a matter of the interest level. I mean, it's like, it takes you, I guess what

you're saying on one side of it that you have to be qualified, but I think more of the problem is, is like, you know, don't you have higher aspirations you know than to be a fucking congressperson like i think that's part of the brain that's the worst part it's not like i'm not qualified to do it it's sort of like i'm gonna sit in those meetings all day i'm gonna listen to like you know people complain about their their buildings and you know what i mean like yeah i mean it takes it's a duty that you have to believe in and want to do more than anything else which i think is probably the bigger obstacle than feeling qualified. Well, it's interesting because women also have different obstacles and different barriers.

And there are very real external barriers. They have a harder time fundraising. They have a harder time fundraising early, which can then really negatively impact them. So that's just real and that's just data in the book. But then there are the internal struggles of not feeling qualified and men usually feeling qualified, even the men who don't necessarily feel qualified and that this is data in the book, would even consider it. Whereas women who are overqualified don't think they are at all. So there are those internal

struggles that are gendered and are specific. Women need to be recruited. Also, men usually do run for office for career reasons as a step in their career, where most women run because they've had enough, because they've seen a problem and they want to fix it. So like we should actually, we should really be encouraging women to run. No, absolutely. So we should actually, we should really be encouraging women to run. No, absolutely. Because they're more prone to run for reasons that I think we would want them to run for. Because they believe in the system and then they make change.

Yes. Yeah. No, I think that- And I don't want to fall into an essentialist trap because there are women leaders who don't advocate on behalf of women and children. Sure. So that's also true. But I absolutely believe that a representative government's a better idea. Then what? Then the one we have.

What do we have? We have a government that's majority white men. Oh, okay. Representative. Oh, yeah. You're not saying democracy. No, we do have a democracy but but right it's not doesn't represent the numbers of the right it's not equal representation yes got it right i i agree with that and i but i do still think like you know like even me i think like you like when people, who would want to fucking do that job?

Do the job. Yeah. I mean, why don't you, I, I very well may. I think you should. Yeah.

I'm, I'm definitely open to it. That's sort of in the spirit of inquiry. Why I wrote the book. Cause I was just like, Oh, what? After the election,

I don't know. Um, probably locally. I mean, there's a homelessness in LA really interesting. really interests me. There's a lot that I feel passionately about. And listen to me, I'm like, I can talk, but the nuts and bolts of fighting those fights within the government, you gotta have some steam, man. Yeah.

Well, and I think that's also a tension in the book, which is how do you dismantle these systems? Are you better off from the inside or the outside? Because there are a lot of fucked up systems in place you know campaigning money all of it yeah can you be of more help you mean yeah i feel like i'm being so cynical i think there's hope and i think that people should do i think that people should get involved i just i think i just when i talk like that i'm like talking to myself like you piece of shit you don't really give a fuck talk like that, I'm like talking to myself. Like you piece of shit.

You don't really give a fuck or you do something. I'm like, I'm doing it. I'm talking. Not enough. Get involved. Hilarious. Don't you have those conversations? Or you're doing things.

You feel like you're doing enough. I don't feel like I'm doing enough now, but I feel like I'm doing things. Did I read somewhere that you do some other like volunteer work or some other sort of have you helped are you helping people are you helping i'm doing the best i can yes i i have i'm a part of an activist group in la that is mainly comprised of progressive women who live on the east side. And we do all sorts of different things. Registering voters.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Postcarding. All sorts of different actions. Do you have hope? So much. That's good. You have to, right?

Yeah, of course. To me, that's just a choice. Yeah, of course I do. Which way do you want to go? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's good. You have to, right? Yeah, of course. To me, that's just a choice. Yeah, of course I do. Which way do you want to go? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a crossroads. Yeah.

I mean, the sort of planet in crisis is much more dire to me. So that's where I have a harder time finding hope. But I actually have a lot of hope for just people and conditions. Yeah, maybe people, maybe eventually over time will do the right thing right in time for us all to be on fire yeah yeah we finally worked out our problems oh my god all right that's a good way to end do you feel feel good? I feel great. Did this go all right? I think so. I feel like it did. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. No, I know. I know. I feel good about it. I feel like we got over tension that wasn't even there. I really didn't have any. I didn't either. I have none.

To be honest with you, my tension was with the administrative people I was emailing with. It really was very separate from you. Right. Because I think both times I've seen you recently, I've said really the only times i've seen you so i'm curious what other times you're thinking of no those are the only times but what i'm saying is i've gone up to you both times and said are we okay because i feel like i said of course you did yeah i know but you know i know when was the last time i saw you i saw you at south by southwest in austin that's right airplane there we were there for a while yeah and then i saw you at South by Southwest. Oh, in Austin. That's right. I saw you on that airplane there.

We were there for a while. Yeah. Backstage. And then I saw you at the Texas Film Awards there for Brooklyn Decker. That's right. You did that with her. And then I saw you at a Netflix party. I saw you at a Netflix party where Martin Sheen walked up out of the car.

Oh, yeah. And I felt very, I don't know if you remember that interaction, but I felt very responsible for his experience. No, it was weird. What did happen? Because we were standing there. Nothing happened. We were just standing waiting for the car and Martin Sheen got out of the car. interaction but I felt very responsible for his experience no it was weird what did happen because we were standing there and nothing happened we were just standing waiting for the car and Martin Sheen got out of the car and I I was also like is he going to remember me like am I going to be so

out of context that I'm going to reveal this in front of me like my co-star of five years is not going to know my name right now so I was worried worried about that. Yeah. But I just felt... And did he? I can't remember. He did. Of course. I just felt... He did.

I just felt very responsible for his experience there. I get that too. That's a weird kind of code. There are certain people... Yes, who bring that out of me. Yeah, I have a couple of them where you're just immediately kind of protective and bizarre. Yeah, I was like, I can't let him go in there.

Right, yeah. There's like two... Like. Yeah, I was like, I can't let him go in there. There's like two, like I know who they are where I don't even think twice about sort of like, I'll take care of it. Are you okay? I know. And it's weird people too. They're not like necessarily. What you'd expect. Right. They're not really people that I'm necessarily close to, but there's a couple of people where I'm just like, I immediately step into that role.

It's bizarre. Yeah. All right. Well, okay. Thanks for having me, Mark. It's nice talking to you but there's a couple of people where i'm just like i immediately step into that role it's bizarre yeah all right well okay thanks for having me mark it's nice talking to you that was nice i think we settled some things and talked some i like her i like her i like uh i like everything about that person uh her book represent Represent, The Woman's Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World, is available. All right. Stratocaster. Wah-wah pedal. Old-ass amp coming at you.ああああああああああああ ああああああ

ああああああ ああああああ ああああああBGM I'm out. Boomer lives. snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs? Mozzarella balls and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be

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