WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1061 - Jackie Tohn

Episode Date: October 10, 2019

Jackie Tohn is the co-star on GLOW who Marc feels he knows the most. Not because they knew each other before making the show, but because they share backgrounds and upbringings that make them very familiar to each other. Jackie tells Marc about growing up on Long Island, intent on pursuing an acting career, only to be met with heartbreak after heartbreak, from pilots that didn’t go to last minute casting changes to an American Idol bust. Jackie explains how a disappointed friend helped snap her out of her funk and how she’s embracing her musical abilities in her comedy today. This episode is sponsored by SweeTango, The RealReal, Intersect by AWS, and Pepsi. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Thanks for coming. Thanks for being here.

Welcome. Welcome. Sit over there. Just hang out for a minute, will you? Today's Thursday, if you're listening to this when it comes out. And tonight, October 10th, I'll be at the Miriam Theater in Philadelphia. Tonight. Tomorrow, Friday, October 11th I'll be at the Miriam Theater in Philadelphia tonight tomorrow Friday October 11th I'm at the Kennedy Center in Washington D.C. and Saturday October 12th I'm at the

Schubert Theater in Boston for two shows so there's a few tickets for all those the second show in Boston you should come to that, even if you don't live there. On Friday, October 18th,

I'll be at the James K. Polk Theater in Nashville. Saturday, October 19th at the Tabernacle in Atlanta. And Saturday, October 26th at the Masonic in San Francisco. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. On the show today, I'm going to Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets.

On the show today, I'm going to talk to Jackie Tone. Jackie Tone is Melrose on Glow. She works with me on that show. You can watch her in all three seasons of Glow. She's also a stand-up comedian. I did go to the premiere of El Camino, which is the Breaking Bad movie. Just by coincidence, I've been watching all of the Breaking Bads. And I just finished them last week.

And I got invited, I guess because I'm on a Netflix show, to the premiere. And I rarely go to those things. But I'm like, I want to see that movie. So I said, yeah, I'll go. And they sent a car, which is exciting. I was never one of those people that would take the cars that they sent them. I'll just drive. I mean, I have a car, I live in LA. What do I need a car service for? Because it's fucking great. How's that for a reason? They just pick me up and then they'll take me home and I'll have to find parking in Westwood

and wonder, you know, how do I get into, where are my tickets? Where am I? Can someone help me? Amidst the chaos. Drove right up. But then you got to, like, you know, you have a choice. Do I want to take pictures? Do I want them to take pictures of me on the red carpet? Because part of me is sort of like, it's not my movie.

I'm not, you know, I'm not in it. Why would they want pictures of me? But then you see pictures of like, hey, look, Mark Maron came to the movie. Why not have a couple of those pictures out there? Why is Mark Maron in here? He went to that thing, to the cool thing with the cool people. I dressed down a little bit, though, because I knew in my heart, like, this is not my night. So just wear a denim shirt.

Why am I telling you this? It's so stupid, isn't it? Jeez, man. It was fun, though. So I go, I walk the carpet and I got an email from some woman. You know, we said I yelled hi from me from the stands, from the grandstands where the people are, where they let the fans and fans sit. And you just said hi in a very unenthusiastic way. And you should really appreciate your fans more.

Mike, what? What are you talking about? What are you? I was taking selfies with people. I was waving. I was saying hi to people. Like you must have the one moment where probably what happened,

you want to know what probably happened? Is I'm wandering around the red carpet area and oddly there's a lot of people that weren't in the movie wandering around the red carpet area. And oddly, there's a lot of people that weren't in the movie wandering around the red carpet area. And I saw Jonathan Banks. Is it Banks or Bank? I think it's Banks, who plays Mike on Breaking Bad. And I just found out from a friend of mine who I grew up with in Albuquerque, New Mexico, that Mike is living in the building he lives in and they'd become friends. So I thought I'd say hi to Mike

and maybe he knows who I am. And I said hi to Mike and I said, my friend Dave says you guys are pals in Albuquerque because that's where they shoot and he's got a place there. He goes, yeah, Dave's a good guy. And it was about three minutes into my conversation with Mike where I realized that he's not Mike, he's Jonathan. But where I realized he's got no idea who I am. I'm just some guy on a red carpet. I've got nothing to do with anything. And so there was that great moment. But then Ed Begley hugged me. So made up for it, balanced it out. But anyways, my point is, maybe you caught me at that moment where I was sort of like, what am I doing here? Should I even be here? Hi. Maybe that was

that. Not like some weird dismissive attitude I have. Perhaps I was having one of my own insecure reflective moments. But I did get to see, yeah, I saw Ed Begley. I'll say it twice. He was very nice. And then I got into the theater and I said hi to a lot of fans, did a lot of selfie taking, was enjoying myself in my denim shirt, my new denim shirt that got sent to me from the Ship John guy. Cranston, Brian Cranston came up, gave me a little hug, congratulated me, said I was doing good. And I said, you're doing good too. And we had a moment. I felt like one of the people at the thing. But there's still part of me like, I don't know what I'm doing there.

And I'm very excited to see celebrities. I saw Aaron Paul. And I was almost going to go wander up and just say hi to Aaron Paul. It's his night. He's the star of the movie. But I didn't want to risk another situation where, like, who's this guy on the carpet? Maybe I'm projecting that. I don't know.

Like, who's this guy on the carpet? You know, maybe I'm projecting that. I don't know. My point is, is that I'm still excited by celebrity and truly the most exciting moment for me. Just because I watched All Breaking Bad recently. What's his name? Giancarlo Esposito. Is that his name?

Yeah, he was there. I was excited to see him. I didn't go talk to him. He scares me a little but I saw like I heard a voice I was familiar and I turn around it's Hank Hank from Breaking Bad I don't even know his name

I don't even know the actor's name and I'm like oh fuck there's Hank I was so excited to see Hank and he's talking just like Hank I couldn't believe Hank was there I didn't even know the guy's name but I Hank. I couldn't believe Hank was there. I didn't even know the guy's name. But I'm like, oh shit, that's Hank.

And I was happy I still have those feelings. I didn't go to the party afterwards because I you know, what am I going to do? You know, what am I going to do? I saw Cranston. I saw Ed Begley. You know, I saw Jonathan. I was going to go to the party party maybe he'd be there

i could explain to him who i am not just some weirdo from new mexico wandering around the carpet but what am i gonna do go feel awkward at a party come on i got hugged by ed begley what more can you ask for from a red carpet experience and i saw Mike Chiklis briefly leaving. Come on. Oh, I saw Walter Hill there. I had a nice chat with Walter Hill, who's been on this show, the director. That was great. That was great. But Hank was there. I should find out what that guy's name is. Shouldn't I? Should I have done it before I did this? I'm a big fan of the guy that plays Hank. Shouldn't I? Should I have done it before I did this?

I'm a big fan of the guy that plays Hank. Hey, Jackie Tone is on the show today. And I saw the guy who plays Hank. And he talked just like Hank in real life. He sounded just like Hank did. But I guess I should bring up the movie. The movie, I was very happy to see those people again. It was sort of a, I would say it's almost a comedy.

But it's very, it's engaging. And Aaron Paul's great. These are great characters. And he's in it. Oh, I saw Jesse Plemons, the guy who played the psychopath. He was there. I love him, man. He was in Black Mask. He's been a lot. He's great. He's great. And he him, man. He was in Black Mask. He's been a lot.

He's great. He's great. And he's with Kirsten Dunst. Are they married? I guess they're married. We had a nice chat. He's in the movie. Jonathan Banks in the movie.

Cranston's in the movie and flashbacks. But the movie really picks up right where Breaking Bad ends. Oh, the guy who plays Skinny Pete. I met that guy. He's not like that in real life. I am still amazed. Skinny Pete doesn't act like Skinny Pete in real life. Badger's Matt Jones.

Badger doesn't act like that either, but he acts closer to Badger than Skinny Pete acts to Skinny Pete I am such a fan of this show apparently so anyways what was I talking about the movie starts with Breaking Bad ends and it's basically Aaron Paul it's Jesse's story

and it's great to revisit those characters Vince Gilligan was there I didn't say hi to him he's been on the show. That was an important show that Bryan Cranston won. Because I, for the fucking life of me, could not separate him from Walter White. I was so deep into the show. And I'm looking at Cranston and I'm like, dude, I don't know who you think you are,

but I need to talk to Walter White, so can we make that happen? I don't know what this story is about Malcolm in the middle, but it seems out of character for you, Walter. I'm learning, but I still have a sort of, I still have a thing, right? Oh, I should have said hi to Hank. Hank.

Should have said hi to Hank. All right, look. Let's read this email real quick because I think I owe people an apology. And it's weird because I thought about this when I said it. Subject line, kid haver.

A kid haver. Mark, I love you and the show, but please, for God's sakes, can you stop with the whole world is going to hell and I'm so happy I don't have kids routine? I'm one of those kid haver type people who is fully simpatico with your very honest and realistic worldview. And thus, I too have a serious sense of dread about climate change and the fate of the human race. My eight-year-old daughter is currently in our dining room earning some extra credit by watching a few climate change news clips, and it's breaking my fucking heart. She is still so innocent and has no idea how tough her life will be one day because of

all this. We all do our various daily tap dance routines so that we can put one foot in front of the other and not let the weight of it all prevent us from going to work and living our lives. But hearing the no kid slash end of the world thing just takes the wind right out of me. By all means, be happy you don't have kids. They can be a pain in the ass and it's often a ton of menial and boring work. I mean, there isn't a parent alive who doesn't occasionally fantasize about being child-free. All I'm saying is that you often mention how you're worried about the children you didn't have,

much less the children you could have had. I would request that you channel that feeling when you're about to go down this road. I think it will give you a sense of what the parents in your audience are thinking and feeling. Thanks for all you do. Love all the guitar dork talk. Please keep it up, Matt. All right, Matt, you're right. I realize that, and I'm not even going to be flip about it. I know it's hard. And I'm not even going to be flip about it. I know it's hard. I know it's heartbreaking.

I know it's, you know, times are dire and scary and noted. Noted. Like, I feel the impulse to kind of slip one in, like, sort of like, but, you know, I don't have kids. Yeah, I'm not going to do it, though, even though I just did it by couching it in the, like I could have done it, and then I did it, but not in the same tone. You know how that works? Seriously, though, Matt, point well taken, and I actually did realize that after. It's like, you know, what am I doing that for? Why am I saying that stuff?

There's people that are trying to deal, and I'm just sort of like, it's just me. It all ends with me. And I'll be out from under it before it goes bad. Okay, fine. But I don't have to make it worse for people. I understand. Look, Jackie Tone is here. I enjoy her. We have a connection that goes back centuries to Eastern Europe. Jew. Jews. Jews. Yes, this is Jew talk. There will be Jew talk.

So if that's enough for you to go like, all right, I'm out. Then go fuck yourself. Jew talk coming down the pike's enough for you to go like, alright, I'm out. Then go fuck yourself. Jew talk coming down the pike. Me and Jackie Tone. Part of being Jewish is saying you're a Jew and talking about Jew stuff. You can watch her in all three seasons of Glow. That's

on Netflix. You can seek out her stand up and you can listen to us talk right now about her and Jews. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream?

Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What do you roll with these, Mr. Brown?

Those were left there. I've had people smoke weed in the podcast. There's some people that... Someone must have brought that at some point. Sure. Like, I don't stop people from doing things. I've had people come with coolers of beer because they can't get through a fucking hour. One hour in the morning.

Yeah. And then, you know, a couple people have smoked weed. Who is really, just Kevin Smith, really. Really sure. I think. Does he have to, I think? Can I have a Kleenex, please? Do you think he actually has to?

I could have handed you the box, but since we're friends, I handed you Individge. Yeah. Do I think he actually has to? Yeah. Actually, no. But I mean, does he think he has to? Probably. Sure, sure, sure.

Is it a deep ingrained habit? I don't know. You know, I haven't seen that guy in a long time. I have no idea how he's doing. Right. How are you doing? Are you all right? I'm well.

Are you? I mean, you know, it comes and goes. you doing are you all right well i mean you know it comes and goes i saw on instagram yesterday a girl i didn't know posted a video of the last thing her mom said before she died and i took a nose dive the rest of the day was over why do people do that why did well you mean the actual footage of her dying right before her mother was going i love you and i'm gonna miss you and i'm even getting choked up now and i was was like, and I just went off it. And then my whole day, I was just like, oh, my God, the last moments, this girl. It was a disaster.

But I was having a great day yesterday. But it was footage? It was footage. That's rough. I don't know why people. Why did she do that? I mean, is that a positive thing that we can do that stuff? I don't know.

I think what it was is she was like, listen, I'm grieving and I want to share my grief. And people were probably reaching out to her and going like, hey, we're here for you. We love you. This, you know, whatever, the improv community. I don't know this girl. Oh, you didn't know her. I was random that I ended up on her. Talk about addictions and all that.

But like Instagram. Are you really in in i'm trying to figure out how to do stories correctly like i'm still a novice like i've kind of i can teach you in five minutes yeah i think i've got it i think i've departed twitter for the most part i i i never really fucked with twitter i was always more of like an instagram person but i'm i'm not on it that much yeah because i try not to be yeah but then I also, you know, there's this weird thing. I was just working with Amy Heckerling. Yeah.

How do I know her? She's a director. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was just saying that she was pitching all these actors for this new show she's doing. Yeah. And all the executives were just asking about their numbers and all like these people, the followers. Instagram followers. I'm going to talk to Betty about it because she's off it.

But she took the other road, which is like, hey, I'm going to have none. Yeah. Because I don't want to deal with any of it. And look at her Emmy nominated actress with no followers. No followers. But it's this weird thing of like every time I go like, I just want to leave it. I don't think that my happiness lies in... I'll be on Instagram for 20 minutes, then I'll just sort of look up and realize I'm

on it. I don't remember opening the phone. I don't remember opening the app. I don't remember going in. Yeah. And now 30 minutes of my life has passed, and I've learned that a stranger's mom has passed away, and a lot of people took pictures of their food. Yeah.

A lot of people took pictures of their food. Yeah, a lot of people took pictures of their food. And yeah, I feel the same way. But I find that I've been... You're at a different level, though. Like, I think if you didn't have an Instagram, no one would give a fuck because you're Maren and we love you. I guess. With me, I'm like building, and apparently one of these very pertinent building blocks

is an enormous Instagram following. I guess so. I don't know if I'm at some level where I don't need it. It seems that people enjoy it. I just have to figure out what exactly I'm doing on it. Because I don't think about it in terms of branding. Right. But I do like it is an audience.

And when I like to do it, when I'm doing my stories and walking my dog and writing fake songs and doing this bullshit, I'm enjoying that. And I think when you're enjoying yourself, people are going to enjoy it and all that. But the pressure to have to is when I start to reject it because I'm like, I run this fucking ship. I don't want to have to. Also, you don't want to be annoying because you're already a little. Yeah, you're not. You're not kidding.

Yeah. And you're like, too much of you. Yeah, but it's funny because coming from someone like you who's never annoying and always sort of kind and calm, it's weird that you would... Take a shot at you? Well, I was also wondering, too, if we would talk about the times we've gotten in fights today. Sure. I mean, but they were just like, it was just bitchy Jew fights. Bitchy Jew fights. But it wasn't like

they're not real fights. It was, well, when I first met you, I think I was like, all right, this is what this is. I know what this is. I know this particular Long Island strain of Semitic neediness.

And then you looked in my eyes and saw a fucking mirror. Uh-huh. Did I? Well, a different kind of thing. A familiarity. A familiarity. Because I feel like when you- Emotionally, we're probably somewhere.

But you're definitely a different strand of Jew. 100%. 100%. But I think when you- I'm familiar with it and I have it in my family. When things I do annoy you, I think it's because they're things you either do or want to do. Or did. Like when I got out of that elevator at Arclight and you shouted at me in front of all those people.

What did I do? I feel like you did that because you were mad you couldn't get out of the elevator. I meant to talk to you about this. Am I right? I'm trying to think which part. This obviously resonated more with you than me because it's not at the tip of my brain well yeah you got a lot going on what what happened this doesn't come through my daily life but when i'm sitting across from you and having this conversation i'm like oh this is a thing we were in an elevator and i love this i love you so much we are quite in hollywood yeah

we were doing a thing right sure and the elevator said max and i already listen you have my number you know i'm jewy and neurotic and i'm not going to deny any of that i don't love an elevator i would have been happy to take the stairs the fucking arc light but here we are in this elevator and we're supposed to go up and it goes down and it says six people max right 14 of us in there and i'm like i don't need to be yeah i'm getting a little hot i don't need to be in here. And it's supposed to go up. It goes down and then it does like a down up. So when the doors open, I just go,

I'm going to get out. I'm going to walk. And you go, you Jewish enough? Just shout it out at me and everyone. But I was feeling sensitive because I was scared. And then downstairs you said, oh, you're being real sensitive today. Oh, yeah. I felt bad.

Couldn't take it. I said, well, yeah, I was scared, but I didn't love that. It's all very familiar to me, and I lock into it. But also, I guess it is somewhat of a projection. I know what's going on. I know when the jokes are coming. I know when you're... There's one scene in GLOW where I was actually mad at you.

Where I was... I'm talking to the whole group of you, and you said something, and I said something back, and it was real. I was like, shut the fuck up. Enough with it. It's just like any, it's the thing where it's sort of, I think I do have an impulse to do what you do,

but I somehow stopped it a long time ago. It's like, oh, look, there's a little bit of open air with nothing being said. I'll take that opportunity. I have an idea. Yeah. Well, it's because I'm so codependent. Is it?

It's partly. Are you? Yeah. Come on. You're the codependent one? Well, I's because I'm so codependent. Is it? It's partly. Are you? Yeah. Come on. You're the codependent one? Well, I'm learning about it, but I think it's because I'm finding out now I had a boundaryless childhood. Well, that's what I identify with. Yeah.

I mean, that's what I feel. And like, I guess I fight. Yeah. I guess maybe I'm a little more ahead of you in sort of knowing things about myself. Yeah. Age, sure. I was just shouting age. Yeah, I had the boundary listening.

I mean, that must be it. That's part of it. But you seem to like adulation and attention. Sure. And I pretend like I don't. Right. Because I need to fight for it. I need people to feel a little uncomfortable before they give me the attention.

We do. Oh, yeah. We do. But I know you're familiar to me only because I have family in where they grew up. I have Long Island people. Sure. I come from, my family's from Jersey, but there's the Long Island faction. And then I grew up, I went on a Barentine tour.

Did you go to the improv? I think we did, yes. Isn't that funny? All those years later. Not that I remember. We did go to the improv. Because I've been up, I've been doing shows at the improv countless times. And I'm like, this is not appropriate for the 16 year olds who are here. So did you go on a teen tour? No, but I've performed at the improv. All my Jewish friends went on teen tours when I was a

kid. But I moved here. I moved from New York to LA when I was just graduated from high school. Well, let's go back then. So you grew up where? Which part of the island? I grew up in Oceanside, Long Island. Now, what part is that? It's Nassau County, so it's the South Shore. It's like by Freeport, Baldwin, all that. It's not Five Townie though. Five Townie is fancier and believe it or not, Jewier. What kind of town was that? Was it working class? It wasn't Jewish? Was was it catholic irish yes exactly right it was all of that so there was like a jewish factor and there was also like a big puerto rican and dominican factor oh yeah and then yeah and then there were a lot of italian kids and a lot of irish right and you're the how many kids in your

family three two big brothers and then me what did did they end up doing? Unsurprisingly, I'm the baby. Right. Are they still in New York? Yeah. Being New Yorkie? One's in Jersey. Be so New Yorkie. Like Bruce Springsteen fans? No, like dad fans, fish fans. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like maybe there's still mushrooms in their lives and they're like in their 40s. Right. Like maybe my brother- Cargo shorts, sandals? 100%. And maybe the day after my brother's son was born, he went and did mushrooms at Madison Square Garden.

Maybe. Well, because it was Christmas Eve, and that's the big fish show. Yeah. Not anymore. No. That's over, isn't it? I think so. So those are my big brothers.

So, okay. So you're all kind of creative hippie kids. Well, weirdly enough, my big brother has an eBay business. My middle brother's a personal trainer, and I'm me. Well, weirdly enough, my big brother has an eBay business. My middle brother's a personal trainer, and I'm me. So my dad's a musician and a singer-songwriter, or was, but both of my parents are phys ed teachers. Really? In high schools?

They were. They were both retired. But your dad's dream was a musician thing? My dad's dream was to be a musician, a singer-songwriter, playing piano and guitar and bass. Do you play any of his songs? No, I don't as much. Well, I don't really play as much straightforward music anymore.

It's more like my stand-up and musical comedy and that kind of thing. Or writing songs for lots of right turns. But I'm writing songs for a cartoon I'm doing for Amazon. Oh, good. All right, so you were... So this for a cartoon I'm doing for Amazon. Oh, good. All right, so this is like a pretty working class family.

You didn't grow up like five-towny, Jappy. See, you're not like a Jap. No, no, no, no. You're just a kind of meat and potatoes Jew. They're rare meat and potatoes. No, there's a lot of them. I never described a Jew as meat and potatoes. No, there's a lot of them. I never described a Jew as meat and potatoes. It's so Irish. I know.

I mean, I could think of like we could change the food. Sure. Yeah, more of like a sort of brisket and queniche. Sure. Yeah. But that was because it's definitely a different thing than the other ones. Oh, yeah. So you knew when you were growing up that the class difference between Jews,

you could feel it, right? I knew that I was not the Jews that went to sleepaway camp, but we went, but my parents worked there. The only way we could afford to go is my dad was the head of the kitchen and my mom was the camp mom. Yep. For how long?

For a month? For two months, for the whole summer, and we went our entire lives. Our entire lives. We were like sleepaway camp kids it was they had the gig every year they had the gig every year so you're like the regulars we were staff kids we're called staff kids but so but when when sometimes when the jappy kids would come back they'd be like well they're not really right and i knew that i wasn't with the kids who could afford

to go there for eight to ten thousand dollars a summer. Right. And they knew you, too. Sure. So were you the cool one? Were you letting them smoke and stuff? Well, I was cool in that I was always a weird kid and an actor and a theater kid. You don't say. But you were playing guitar, too, at that time, right? I didn't play guitar until I was 18.

So I was after camp, which was crazy. But I was like, I dressed in thrift. Like, it was part need, part I was that weird kid. Right, yeah, sure. So it wasn't like, I didn't want your fancy things. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did. Right.

But I low-key acted like I didn't. And then was like a thrift shopper weird kid. So all three of you went to the camps? Mm-hmm. Every summer? The camps. Easy with the term, the camps. Sorry, the camp.

Where was it? Upstate New York. Camp La Conda. Yeah, it was totally a Jew camp. Jew camp. For services on Friday night. Really? Upstate New York. Camp La Conda. Yeah, it was totally Jew camp. Jew camp. For services on Friday night. Really? Adon Alam.

Asher Malam. Not everyone does that version. It's weird. There are different versions of Adon Alam. Oh. You know there's a slow one that I grew up with? Do I need it? What is it?

Adon Alam. Asher Malam. Pateram kol yitzir niv, wow, I forgot I knew that one. Yeah, this is a full-on middle-class conservative Jew-ness going on. I love it. It's funny, though, because I play so Jewish on Glow, and I'm obviously very Jew-y as a person, and I quite like that about myself, but I know very little about Judaism. That's the same of all of us.

We know that song. That's right. But I don't even know what it's saying. I don't know what it's saying, and I don't know when the holidays are or what they mean. You kind of know. They're kind of around... I was born on Kol Nidra, so I know that Rosh Hashosh Hashanah and Kippur are going to be around my birthday. Like it's soon.

I didn't stop really drifting. I didn't start drifting from that till I was older. Like I would find a place to go when I was in my 20s and stuff. I think so too. You know, but now I don't. Yeah. It's sort of sad. I think so too.

Especially now that. We just don't want to go home. You know, it's like it starts like that where you're like, is it do we need to go home for the Jewish holidays? That seems crazy. Right. Right. Like Thanksgiving, maybe you'll go home for. But the Jewish, you know, so then over Christmas, like no one even goes home for Hanukkah. It's just like, of course not. But like, but you can find you can find other Jews here. No one ever invites me to seders. Really? No, I might. You won't come. You do a seder? I don't do. What? No, I'm saying like one ever invites me to seders. Really? No. I might. You won't come. You do a seder?

I don't do it. What? No, I'm saying like I know people that do seders. Right. I actually love it when someone goes like, hey, come for this. Come for Shabbat or come for seder. Like I don't really do them, but it's always super nice. I think that people are nervous to invite me, and I think that that's probably warranted,

but I'm pretty good. Like I get nervous too. Like if someone invites me, I'm like, what am I going to do? I'm just going to go over there. But then I go, and it's fine. It's nice. I know how to be a guest. I don't freak out.

100%. 100% not. I don't know. I talk about this a lot on the show about not being invited places. But you've got to invite people to be invited, I think, is the thing. I also think, yes, I do. But I also think that there's, like, a vibe about a person, and you give off a vibe like you don't, vibe like you don't

not that that you don't want to be invited yeah like you give off a vibe like well I don't want I don't need to do this I don't want to do this yeah but you do want to and but I think I I personally and maybe I'm reading you wrong but I see past that and I don't think that of you no I don't think like oh he doesn't want to come places yeah, I think that's our problem is maybe you see past it and then I have to go harder to keep you out of me. True. Oh, it's so real. It took me a second for it to like really get into the folds.

You can't. Get her out of me. She's in. Claws. All right. So you're going to camp every summer with your parents. Yeah. With your parents.

And then I had to like be really sort of behave at camp because my parents were there. So like all the girls were like sneaking to other bunks and making out. And I couldn't do any of that because my parents were there. But cut to my parents didn't give a shit. You didn't make out with, you didn't make out at camp? A little bit. I was so prude until I was like 18 years old. I was, I was so neurotic. I mean, not that I'm years old i was i was so neurotic i mean not that

i'm not anymore but i was so neurotic as a kid yeah i think it's making out of camp you have to but i think it comes from the boundaryless nature of my childhood like well what was that though what do you i mean your parents were teachers you just mean like what form of boundarylessness i'll tell you like i didn't have a curfew because everybody else had a curfew. So my mom was the cool mom that was like, what are you going to do? Stay out by yourself? Your friends have a curfew. You're going to come back at some point.

Did she talk like that? 100% still does. Here, listen to this one. I got this one. Do you want us to say no? That was crazy. That's identical. No.

That's not a quote, but that's the subtext of what she's saying. What do you want me to do Want me to say no I'll say no Right exactly So then I become the adult Yeah it's terrible And then I would have to choose

Also if my brothers Had sporting event stuff She would go What are you going to come to You don't need to come to that Yeah And then we never Had family dinners

We never had to sit around The table and look at each other And check in Oh really And be together We never had to And then when I had My performances, my brothers never came. It was never like a family unit vibe because my mom was like, the boys don't want to come

to your singing. You don't want to come to their sports, except you got to go support your brothers and you got to support your sister. I love the idea of, I don't know, not making your kids, but everybody has family dinner. And so it just felt like a lot of floating. And in my mom's brain, she was being this cool mom. And in my brain, it was like grasping for like, who's the adult? Yeah, yeah.

No, I get. Yeah, I understand that one. Yeah, but I think my parents, too, uh needy people and self-involved people right so what i've determined is that they were not that capable of uh sort of selfless kind of unconditional love stuff they you know i was just i was just sort of an extension of their worry you know what i mean like it wasn't i i don't and my dad was never around so like we had family we didn't really have family stuff because he was sort of not, you know, he was working. And my brother was at tennis school and tennis camp.

We both took different paths. So I never really thought about the unity thing. There was none. But what's funny that you say that about your dad is my dad asked me in my 20s or something, he was like, you know, sorry I wasn't around. Where was he? He's a gym teacher. When you were a kid, I'll tell you.

And that wasn't my experience of my memory of my dad because we played music together. So he'd sit at the piano and we'd sing and do harmony. And anytime anyone came over, me and my dad had our little duo performance. And my mom and I always had like kind of a stiller and mirror shtick and we would do, it was always like, Jackie, go. Yeah. I didn't notice that I was sort of being put on display because I liked it and I think wanted it. Yeah.

But my dad also had these trade shows. He's a postal historian, so he is a philatelist. Wait a minute. So this guy is a singer, songwriter, the gym teacher, the camp operator, and now he's a philatelist. Wait a minute. So this guy is a singer-songwriter, a gym teacher, the camp operator, and now he's a philatelist? That's right. Which is a postal historian. Yes. So he used to.

He just sold his business. Stamp collector. Stamp collector. But buys and sells and trades. And so there was a time. He sold the business? How much did he sell the business for? He did okay.

Come on. I think it was worth like $375. Come on. There's still people that do that? Well, he didn't get that because each piece individually would have been worth that, but he sold it for... I don't want to talk... Oh, bulk, right. No, I'm just curious about that the interest is still there.

Over $100,000. Sure. Okay, because they're actual things. Yes. Big books of little stamps with the little weird little... 40, 50 years. The little sticky thing that you stick it in the book with. And the little wax envelopes. But there were envelopes which are called covers, which depends on... This is truly...

Full sheets of stamps. But it's not only stamps. It's any postal history. So people collect things that randomly went through a post office. Did he have one of those upside down plane stamps? He did not. We would have been very rich if he did. That was the one stamp we all knew about.

The grail. I don't even know if it exists. The grail. It's fake. Some guy made it up about 18 years ago. So he was doing these. He did 35 weekends a year and he worked all day every day during the week. Yes.

He was literally never around. And I don't remember that. I remember like playing and singing. A good hour of connection. That's true. You know, we'll transcend, you know, a few weeks of absence. Sure, for sure. I mean, it's really about the connection, I think, ultimately.

I think that's one thing that saves any of it. Yeah. That, you know, I do feel connected to my parents. I don't think I'd rely on them for anything. But I do, you know, I know don't think i'd rely on them for anything but i do you know i know them i would have relied on them like in now i still do but they got so much of their own shit are they together yeah and i'm having to constantly be like did you go to that doctor or please please don't eat that and a friend of mine actually told me um that i need to stop fighting with my parents about what they eat.

What are they eating? Because they're fucking rat poison. Really? It's unbelievable. What did you grow up with? Well, my dad has had a heart attack and a stroke and has diabetes. And he's like, what's it called? I cheated tonight.

I had a little bit of sugar-covered French toast with a side of bacon. I'm like, what? What are you doing? Wow. But then he sometimes tells, but I'm like, why are you telling me, too? What, at a diner? Yeah, of course. Always at a diner.

Or at Flakewitz. What's Flakewitz? That's the Jewish deli they eat at in Florida. Oh, they're in Florida. Flakewitz? Where in Florida? Probably Lake Worth or Boynton Beach or Jewish Town, USA. But it's just weird.

You always think, who would end up in Florida? But then something happens to you as a Jew. When you start visiting there, you get older and you're like, not bad. It's kind of nice. Well, there's a weight to it. It's actually relaxing. And I don't even know how that's possible, given how densely populated it is and how fucking weird it is but there's something about it where you're like it just slows you down it's I couldn't agree more and my parents are like staunch New Yorkers they

said they were never going to be those old Jews that went down to Florida yeah but they're all that yeah like not us forget it we're never going right and they're down there they have more of a social life they're full of staunch New Yorkers who said they were never going to go to Florida. They're surrounded by them. Because everyone that's like them went there. Like-minded Jews. They love it. Yeah.

They just sit in circles and complain about what they did and what they didn't do and what they should do and how much it cost at that place. That's right. The doctors. The doctors and the two restaurants that everyone goes to. Do you go to that place? Is it still good? Flakewoods I do.

Yep, delicious. Bagel chips are delightful there. Wolfie's used to be down where my mother's is gone. Why did I grow up like that? I grew up, here's the thing. I grew up envying people of your ilk. like envying people of your ilk. Like to me, the Jewish sensibility was always comes from people like your,

like the Long Island people, Brooklyn people, real New York people. I was from Jersey, but my parents moved away early on. So my idols comedically, whether it was Woody Allen or Richard Lewis or Buddy Hackett, there was a New York sensibility that I only had genetically from Jersey.

So I had to sort of aspire to it. It's so funny because it's so in you. No, I know. I mean, I probably felt like I got to reach for that. But like you are already it. It's yeah. I mean, it's in me because like Jersey's Jersey, but it's still like but they were just my heroes, always the old Jews.

Right. And I did in college. I did Don't Drink the Water. And I played, and I played the old Jewish guy, the father. And it was like, of course I could play that. I don't know where it came from, but it's in me. I don't know how it's in me, but it is. It's so good. It really is.

It's in all of us. Is it? You just turn it on? Well, I have a weird thing of like when I, like I met this, my friend's friend the other night and I couldn't, it was like such an instant, it was not obvious, clearly not a romantic connection, but it was just such an instant fusing of like brains and like sternums even. It was just like, I get this person. It was just like, I mean, it's just cultural.

Yeah, but it's not. He's like a Studio City Jew. Like he's. It's an ashkenazi trip though like you know you get into the sephardic or into more like there's some jews i don't like i'm like you're a jew how is that possible explain to me i see ortho like chesedim and i'm like you don't look like a jew if you take off the hat and the hair i don't know what's going on it's a hundred percent it's a mystery it is such a mystery but those of us that are like these cultural ones just culturally

like i find us russian polish i was gonna say eastern european yep yeah eastern european jews yeah and then the uh the same adon alums you gotta have the same but i i've met reformed jews and i'm like no no i don't know what's happening there so there was a guitar at the synagogue and i don't wow you're telling me the rebbe was a woman yeah that doesn't no come on get out of here but it's true right it is it's weird so all right so how does uh so you're playing songs with your dad and he's collecting stamps on weekends your brother's doing sports your mother and you and your mother have some sort of shtick you do so when does uh when do you when do you decide that you need all this attention at show business?

Birth. What about your grandparents? Are they around? No. Were they? Yes. It's funny that you brought that up. So I want to answer the question about when I wanted to go into show business, but there's

two. My grandparents, they're not around. My dad's dad died when- No, but when you were a kid, were they there? Because they were- My grandparents were my real sort of connection to everything. Oh, no. To everything, to comedy, to everything.

My mother's parents, when I grew up, I'd stay there a lot. And my grandma Goldie, that was it. She was it. Jack and Goldie. Jack and Goldie is the two best names I've ever heard. Yeah, Jacob and Goldie. Oh, forget it. I have to name my kids Jack and Goldie, that was it. She was it. Jack and Goldie. Jack and Goldie is the two best names I've ever heard. Yeah, Jacob and Goldie. Oh, forget it. I have to name my kids Jack and Goldie now.

Don't be weirded out. No, I won't. All right, so go ahead. Also, they're frozen somewhere in Encino, my kids. So now I've always called them Darby and Michael, my eggs, but now I'm going to call them Jack and Goldie. You sold your eggs? No, they're frozen for me.

Okay. Yeah, but now they were always Darby and Michael because those were the first names I thought of when I froze them. I said, be gentle with Darby and Michael when they took them away. But now they're going to be Jack and Goldie. It's too cute. Why does one freeze their eggs? Explain it to me. I froze my eggs because I was in a relationship when I was like 32, and I realized that I had done the exact same thing four times in a row,

which was date a really awesome, charismatic comedian with a Peter Pan complex who was never going to make me a wife and give me children. Right. And as this relationship was ending, I was like, I need to fix. I need to work on myself. But I also definitely want kids and I want a career. And I have not a lot of examples of women who can do both. I think it's really challenging. And so I just decided right before that relationship ended that I was going to freeze my eggs.

And I just went and did it. So then they become plantable? Yeah, you can plant those in the ground. You can have a baby tree. It would be pretty. Okay. But that's the idea. You a well yeah then once you get ultimately i still am um of an age where i can have children naturally yeah but i want to continue my career i want to get it right

and produce and do all the things and um be in front of the camera and it's fucking challenging i heard betty on here talking too about women having an expiration date and I think since I was never an ingenue it's less of a deal breaker for me. I'll just grow up and be a craggy character actress. That'll be fun. Yeah, but if you get into production it's like anything. It's really just

relative to a very specific kind of like being in front of the camera trip in a certain way. Yeah, I totally agree. But even like with... I don't want to very specific uh kind of like being in front of the camera trip in a certain way yeah i totally agree but even like with you know yeah i don't want to trivialize it's hard for women on all levels but you know what i mean but that part but i also want to be able to even if it's not about what i look like i want to be able to take the time to raise the kid do you and i do and i don't want to after he or she is born four weeks later, just be back either producing direct, whatever the thing is.

I want to be able to take that time. And right now I can't realistically take nine months to be pregnant. And then another year to be with this child to make sure they feel nurtured. And that I didn't just pop them out and hand them out to a nanny. Right. And I don't have those two years right now while I'm on this sort of run of my career at whatever level this is. Sure. I wanted to be successful as an actor or as a person in this business.

Yeah. I started when I was nine. Right. And I got glow when I was 35. That's a long haul. So it's a long fucking haul. And now I'm like in these baby making, prime baby making years. Yeah. Actually the end of the baby making years.

And in this like, oh cool, making a show on here and there and working on all these. No time for babies. No man either in the life. I do. I have a boyfriend. Oh. I have a boyfriend. We've been dating for like six months.

But this is not one of the four comedian Peter Pan complex. What is that? That means stay young forever? What's Peter Pan? Yeah, I think it's this like, and the dudes that I, and I'll, you know, we can talk more specifically. I'm literally, I was too neurotic and selfish to think about children. And it wasn't, I never thought I was going to stay young.

Well, what's crazy is it's not too late for you. And that's what people say, but it kind of is. Would you want that in my life? Well, that's crazy is it's not too late for you. That's what people say, but it kind of is. Would you want that in my life? Well, that's a choice, but for me... I'm watching my cats slowly decline and I can't even handle it. You think I can't handle the heartbreak of just a kid coming home from school

not, you know... Needing you anymore? No, but just something that doesn't work out. My boundaries are so shitty emotionally that I just can't. I couldn't. I don't. I find that I couldn't handle.

Like, I think that was another problem. That was a problem with my mother, too, is that my pain, even the most mundane, where she could have just said this happens. It was sort of like, oh, that's terrible. Like, immediately commiserating. Oh, I thought you were going to say the opposite, which was like, you'll be fine. No, no, no. Oh, like diving into the pain with you. Right. Oh, wow. you were going to say the opposite, which was like, you'll be fine. No, no, no.

Diving into the pain with you. Right. Wow, that's fascinating. And I think I have that. Like, it's just like, you know, how do you, she didn't have any way of making me feel better other than trying to experience the sadness and then just resigning to that. Just so it becomes really her thing. Whatever. So that's, I don't know why I started talking about that.

That's why I don't have kids and I don't regret it and I don't really think about it that much. I just really am too neurotically forward. Wired. Panic. It just works. I know it doesn't seem like I am. Oh, yeah. No, it totally doesn't.

You're really fooling everyone. I had no idea you felt that way. I usually just make it anger. That's the public face of my panic and dread. We have the anger in common too, friend. I don't love that about myself, that's for sure. Let's go back real quick. We were at your grandfather's.

So your father's father was not around. He died. He had a heart attack when my dad was 19. So you didn't know any of your grandparents? No, I knew my mom's parents are Holocaust survivors. Were. They're no longer. But they survived the Holocaust.

They moved after in the early 40s to Paris. Yeah. And then. Wow. It's fucking crazy. And then. Not camp survivors. They got out.

Not camp survivors. My grandma's, the rest of my grandma's family was in various camps. And my grandma and my grandpa were miraculously just one step ahead. And there's just all these miracles. They knew when to get out. They didn't know, but I guess they knew that the occupation was coming and they other people knew, too. But, you know, it's hard to to think that that's going to be real. You go like, what are they going to come living in it?

I didn't want to say that we're living in it. And we're just sort of like, you know, how bad is this going to get? Really? You know, people don't think it's real. And they're just like they think that it's fake photos at the border and it's not real. And those people aren't really like what that's staged. No, I don't. Staged by the left.

I don't. Of those people. Yeah. But I mean, I think people know it's real. There's people in my family. So people, everything moves so quickly now. There's not, people don't latch on to it for a long enough period of time. That's exactly right.

But like random. Another mass shooting and then the next day it's like. When random acts of violence become defined by a certain ideology you know it's not so random anymore it doesn't mean that you know it's a you know but it's coming from an ideological place that is shared by many people so when does that become a bigger problem that we all have fear but then but because it's so common the bigger problem is also this like weird gray wash over the whole scene. And you don't even see it because it's so prevalent. You're just doing your everyday life.

And that bigger fucking cloud is just there again. Well, now it's an actual cloud. It's actual fire. It's actual like, you know, weather that's beyond anything we can handle. And, you know, we're starting to see that stuff. So it's sort of a race between ideology and the actual end of the environment. End of the actual world. That's right.

And it's a blaze. So my mom's parents- So you knew them. I knew them. But my grandpa only until I was like 10. And he hardly spoke any English and chain smoked cigarettes. And he just sort of was around. But they were in Florida.

And we were in New York. Right. And then my grandma, my mom's mom, I was closer with. But also, they were in florida and we were in new york and then my grandma my mom's mom i was closer with but also they were so far away right yeah i think my my more too but i think it's nice to have that connection with your grandparents if it's there absolutely but they didn't but they didn't really tell us you know stories obviously i was a kid and they're not going to be like listen to these atrocities but you knew you they had these grandparents and just a look at them. Sometimes that's enough.

I agree. And they were around. And I had great conversations with my grandma. And in high school, I filmed her and asked her questions about World War II. Oh, really? Which was crazy because then when we got to shoot that campfire scene. In Glow? In Glow.

Yeah. It was nuts. Liz and Carly had some aunt know aunt whatever they had sarah and i asked if i could change it to the name of my mom's aunt pestle who was my grandma's only sister that stayed in poland with her parents and they all got i will say exterminated because that's what happened and i always choke on that word like Like, do I need to be dramatic? And it's like, it is fucking dramatic. That's what happened. Right.

And so they let me change the name of that story I was telling to Pestle and I memorialized my great aunt. And it was- That's great. Just who, boy, that's a nuts thing. Yeah. Who gets to do that? It's beautiful.

Well, it was cool. Definitely cool. All right. So nine, when does the show business start? Well, when I was about 10 years old, I also- Because I know you're almost a child actress. Yes. Right?

Yeah. Well, I did a couple episodes of The Nanny when I was 12. How does that happen? My mom had a friend who I think she took Lamaze with when she was pregnant with my brother and this woman was an agent and she worked in out of her back house in baldwin long island her name was aggie gold a fresh faces agency yeah and she was a bull von this woman would call anyone and everyone and she would say things like she my client is a star you have to meet her and if you don't like her i promise you i know you don't know her from a hole

in the wall and she's never worked but if you meet her and you don't like her you're never going to hear from me again yeah and then i would tell i told my shrink that she goes oh my god the she felt so awfully for me yeah she's like the little child in you, knowing those stories. Your whole life you've been telling this as this positive story. Yeah, right. But the amount of pressure that was on your shoulders to deliver that day when your agent was like, you'll never hear from me again if you don't think this person who I'm telling you is a star is a star. But did you know she was saying that when you were a kid?

I think so. Oh. Yeah, I think so. But. Yeah, I think so. But I, again... I think, I don't know, kids can absorb that shit. That's how I felt. And instead I delivered. Yeah.

Instead I was like, do I have a joke for you? Yeah. I was writing stand-up when I was a teenager. Is that true? Yes. I don't know how funny it was, but yeah. But you didn't do stand-up as a teenager? I did a little.

Like, I would go into Nickelodeon and do, like, five minutes of, like, impressions and jokes about an Easy-Bake Oven and my boyfriend in elementary school and this shit. But you liked shtick. I was, it was shtick. How did you, but how did you earn that shtick? My mom. But who were her people? I mean, was she, I mean, was it natural? Yes.

Because you sort of have this timeless Jewish thing that I always recognize and I always feel, and I think it's at the core of all of us, but it's almost like Fanny Bryce or Tony Fields. Yeah, and then to Joan Rivers. It was Fanny Bryce. But it's like my idols growing up were Gilda Radner, Joan Rivers, and Bette Midler. Right. Like when I saw them, I just saw myself.

Yeah. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I just would go like that. No, that's how you do it. Yeah. That's what I want. That's who I am. Yeah. I want to sing and I want to tell jokes and I want to be dramatic and I want to host stuff

and I want to do fashion police and I want to be Bette Midler's Broadway show. Yeah. These are the things. But it's interesting. You never thought to do stand-up as a younger person because there was a couple of people that like teenage stand-up phenomenons. One of them, I think, turned out to be in her 20s and lying. Amazing. I forget her name.

It was kind of a controversy. I want to look it up. She was like a teenage stand-up comedian. She wasn't that good. But, I mean, the angle was that she was a kid. But then turns out she wasn't really a kid. There was that story too. And she kept doing it.

The woman that created Felicity. Yeah. She said she was like 22 and she was like 35 or something. I mean, I get if you're blatantly lying, that's not okay. But also this business is this like, you have to be young and you have to be this. And it's like, that's why people are lying and saying they're younger. I don't say I'm, I mean, I don't lie about my age're younger i don't say i'm i mean i don't lie about my age but i wouldn't say i'm younger because i give a fuck i say i'm younger because

you give a fuck yeah because like people hiring actors yeah they don't if you look 29 but you're 39 you want the people to think you're 29 because that weirds their brain out for some reason even though we're actors and that's the point yeah i, I don't. I played a guy recently that was supposed to be. It was based on him, so there's no way you're going to make me 28. Right. But the real guy was in his 20s. They cast me to be a guy in his 40s. I don't give a fuck.

Right. Put the wig on me. What are you going to do? I don't give a fuck. So you're nine. You're working with Fran Drescher. I was 11 or 12 when that was my first job that i got and i i just wanted to act and my mom knew this agent like on long island i mean i know it's close to new york but it's not

like right we're going and meeting agents it all just sort of happened in a really lucky way and i i wasn't pushed into it by my mom i begged and begged until finally when I was like 10 or 11, she was like, okay, we'll go. And so we met with Aggie. The Long Island agent. The Long Island medium. Yeah, the Long Island agent. Yeah. And it just happened.

And I started going on auditions pretty immediately. And that was in like probably middle school or late elementary school. So my mom- Would schlep you in on the train? Shlep me in on the Long Island Railroad and schlep me around. And ultimately, it was cool. It was a lot because I would have to miss school and make stuff up. And I wasn't being, obviously, homeschooled like a lot of kid actors were.

But I wasn't working that much at that time. I was just going on a lot of auditions and getting commercials and stuff. But they weren't teaching at the school you were going to, either of them? No. Oh, okay. My mom was actually teaching at a yeshiva, but then she had to, she didn't have to, but she chose to stop when things started picking up with me. Yeah.

Because I was coming to L.A. for development deals and stuff. Oh, for pilot season? Yeah, and doing, you know. So what happened, so you got, the nanny was the first job? Yeah. And then you guys decided to move to LA? Not. So I sent in a tape for the nanny and then I found out I got it, came out to LA, shot it. It was the coolest thing ever. And then finished out high school. Did you meet Fran? I did meet Fran. Did you do scenes with her? I did. All my scenes are with

her. Yeah. She was amazing. And actually I played two different characters on the nanny. You guys must've really hit it off. You're like a miniature dresser i know they wanted a mini fran yeah and i was i mean i don't know that that many 12 year olds were running around being like yeah and so when i was 12 i did one and then when i was 15 i did another one and played a different character because i needed a mini fran again and they were like yeah fuck it just hire the accent hire the girl that already did it. So, okay, so you do that,

you come back and you're like, I want to go to LA, mom. Kind of, but I didn't even really know that I wanted to go to LA. But you go out there

once a year for the pilot stuff and did you do more? It wasn't even once a year. It was like when things would come up. If there was an opportunity, I'd go to LA.

If I got a commercial. And your mother would go with you? My mom would go with me. My mom would go with me. So then, when it really happened, so most of the stuff was in New York like I did an episode

of the Sopranos and I was just doing which one season one where the soccer coach is fucking with the girls oh it was like the one episode

Tony didn't kill the person oh I'm trying to remember I just watched them all I played Silvio Dante's daughter Heather Dante oh okay

but what's crazy is I did one episode yeah and then Silvio Dante's daughter, Heather Dante. Oh, okay. But what's crazy is I did one episode. Yeah. And then- Silvio is Will Steven? Yeah. Yeah. And then David Chase, the creator of the show, his daughter dropped out of college.

Yeah. And then my character disappeared and my name was Heather. And then this new, Meadow had a new best friend named Hunter. It was like a sort of a seamless like, there were two Darrens. Like it just was this random thing that was a bewitched moment. So Chase's kid did it? Mm-hmm. Oh, well.

Damn it. Yeah, I know. But that was that. But that was, again, like I had so many of these. Like I was supposed to be this recurring character that was just going to be on The Sopranos and be little Steven's daughter. Didn't happen. And then it just, I mean,. It happened once and it didn't happen

again. You a Bruce Springsteen fan? I'm not. What I know of Bruce Springsteen I like, but I'm not a following, crazy fan. Who were you people? Growing up, I loved James Taylor and Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell. I was

into that singer songwriter. I had a dream about Paul Simon. I would lose my mind with Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell. I was into that singer-songwriter. I had a dream about Paul Simon. I would lose my mind with Paul Simon. I have to teach myself how to finger pick properly. I've been fighting that forever. You got to do it. I mean, I'm not a great finger picker. I have my two or three patterns I do, and I do them.

And I sound, and I can trick you. But if you go like, play this song in this pattern, it's not like I just can. Right, right. and I can trick you. But if you go like, play this song in this pattern, it's not like I just can. Right. Right. Yeah, I got it. James Taylor, though, is a ridiculous guitar player.

He is, yeah. When did you... Oh, Billy Joel. Oh, you're a Billy Joel person. Okay, so that's it. I'm a Billy Joel person. No, that's it. See, that's Jersey Springsteen,

Long Island, Billy Joel. Okay, that's it. That's it. Okay, you're going back and forth to LA. Then when does the commitment come? When does the music start happening? Because when does the comedy start happening? You're doing bit pieces as a teenager on these shows as the Long Island girl or whatever,

but then you kind of come into this musical comedy trip. True. Well, so I was doing all this acting stuff, and then when I graduated from high school, I went to the University of Delaware for one semester. Yeah. But Delaware is set up in a weird way where- The school, you mean? Yeah.

Well, how they do semesters. Yeah. So mid-December, like December 10th or something, they go on break till like February 10th. Yeah. So there's a mini Mester in there and me and my mom and my agent Aggie Gold came out to LA

and met this showrunner TV creator Danny Jacobson who created Mad About You and used to showrun Roseanne Maher big guy. Yeah. And he was like

let's make a show and I dropped out of college and I said let's make a show Danny Jacobson 20th to sign me to a development deal. They did? This is in 1998.

How old were you? 18. 18, so you got a development deal. You got a development deal. Quarter of a million? No, 120, 125. Nice. All right.

And I love you. And so I was a teenager. I'd never obviously seen this kind of money. Who had? And I got this deal, and I dropped out of college, and I was like, let's go. And then we never even made a teenager. I'd never obviously seen this kind of money. Who had? And I got this deal and I dropped out of college and I was like, let's go. And then we never even made a pilot. There was a script that maybe got messenger Danny. There was a script that maybe got messenger back to my hotel once or twice.

And then I was like, I'm not in college. I'm not making the show. Then I went to the TV Guide Awards with my friend Ben, who was on The Nanny. And I met Jessica Biel. She's so pretty. She's so fucking pretty right we became the we became instantly friends it was like we had known each other forever the same age she's a year younger than me yeah and i was 18 she was 17 and it was like we we were the friend we'd always looked for yeah and i was going to go back to delaware this was still all on that

break the development deal just be all the whole thing it crapped out all on that break or you that you waited for that like it didn't crap out on that break right right that it was enough for me to be like well i'm not going to go back to school i got this deal i got all this stuff going on and jess i was like well i don't have anywhere to live i don't have a car she's like well come live with me so i moved in with her and her family in Calabasas while she was on Seventh Heaven. Yeah. And I was like, okay, goodbye, Delaware. Hello, development deal and celebrity life.

Yeah. And then nothing happened for however many years. So then- Okay, so that development deal, it made it to script, but didn't even shoot nothing. And that was over after a year. But then they re-upped it for, I think, another- Yeah. They gave you another year on the same deal or wrote another thing?

Same deal. He's like, we're going to make this show. Yeah. And then we never made the show. So the first two years I lived in LA, I had money and I'm living at Beale's house. And I just was like... But I couldn't... Are you guys still friends?

Yes. I mean, we're not as close as we were years ago, but... She's got a whole life and kids and everything. She does. And so- Oh, so this is one of those stories where you immediately feel the rush and the weird sort of leveling off of like, oh, this is how show business work. It doesn't just happen.

You get, you know, this is it. What's crazy is that this was my third deal. This Danny Jacobson deal was my third deal. Oh, so where were the other ones? I was 15 and I got one at Warner Brothers with Nell Scovel, who created... I know Nell. I've interviewed her. So Nell, I did my shtick, my 15-year-old stand-up shtick.

They said there was a breakdown that came out that said, we're looking for funny teenage girls. I came in. I did my shtick. She signed me to do a development deal at Warner Brothers. they said there was a breakdown that came out that said we're looking for funny teenage girls yeah i came in i did my shtick she signed me to do a development deal at warner brothers i came out i shot this pilot with alan thick and all these rad people i was 15 years old we shot the pilot and it was called prudy and judy and it was me so that's really when that all happened so that was like almost you know whoa and a live studio audience and i'm the star of this show, and I'm in the auditions.

I'm 15 years old in the auditions with the other girls. They're reading against me to see if their chemistry works with me. I mean- So you're almost a child star. Yes. You're very close to being a child star. And then a couple years later, I got the same deal in Nickelodeon when I was like 16. So that was, I think, 14, 15.

Then at 16, 17, I got this Nickelodeon deal. Same thing. They were doing a spinoff of the kids' sketch show, and now this. All that. Yeah. All that. So then I had a show called And Now This.

All that and now this. Got it. It was going to be the second half hour. Rosie O'Donnell was hosting me. This whole thing going. We made the pilot. They aired it. Canned it.

They were like, we don't need two kids' sketch shows. So you've already taken two hits. Oh, yeah. I mean, my very first gig was a Rice Krispies commercial that I was so, so excited to book. My first big national commercial when I was 12. And then I see it on TV. I come running home from school because I hear it's on the air.

And I come running. I'm not in the fucking thing. I shot it. I'm in a leather jacket, dice-claying out, eating Rice Krispies, and I'm just not in the commercial. So this had been going on for 10 years. So by the time the Jacobson deals went south, but the difference was that you still had a life at home and parents and school and stuff. But now you've moved out here on a deal and you're 20 and it happened again. That's right.

Three strikes, you're out. That's right. Oh, you don't even want to hear the fourth strike. What? The fourth strike makes me still cry. What happened? I book a series when I'm 23 called Regular Joe. Are you still living with Beale?

No. No. Beale, I got my own apartment at this point. Okay, yeah. Was that awkward? Can you leave? Yeah, I asked her if she could head out. I said, I'm going to stay with your parents in Calabasas, but can you sort of take it

on the arches, honey? Cute ass, by the way. And then I smacked it. So when I'm 23, I go, so weird, this still makes me emotional, but I'm 23 and there's a pilot called Regular Joe written by David Litt who created King of Queens. Yeah. And I'm like, well, this is, he loves Leia Remini. He gonna love me let's go i'm in a i'm in a little box i get it yeah let's go yeah and so i go and i meet on uh this thing i book so they tell me they're

recasting the entire pilot they're firing the girl that played the daughter and they're looking for someone else and it's being picked up to series but they're replacing the daughter and i book And it's being picked up to series, but they're replacing the daughter. And I book the series. It's a mid-season replacement. This is not a pilot now. This is my chance to be on TV, on ABC, at 8.30. This is, by the way, the height of fucking TV.

People can't imagine that 8.30 on ABC really means anything anymore. But at this time, this was like, all there was was network television. HBO was like, whatever. And so I book this series. and it's the biggest thing that's ever happened to me we're about to shoot the pilot my parents come out they fly in from new york and they asked me to come meet with the producers at the at cbs radford i'm like okay sure but get my parents in the car i'm gonna show them my dressing room i've taped everything up i got a rug i got candles i got the whole. I'm going to show them my dressing room. I've taped everything up. I got a rug. I got candles. I got the whole thing. I pull up to my dressing room to drop my parents off before I drive over to the production office on my life.

Mark, a man is paint rolling my name off my parking space. Nah, a hundred percent true. And I'm getting choked up. And then I go and I'm like, what? Maybe they've just moved my dressing room.

I don't put two and two together. I go to production. And the reason they've called me there is to fire me. So my parents watched, my parents, my mother, who gave up her life so I could be an actress, is watching a man paint roll my name off my parking space. Oh, boy. It's the fakest story I've ever heard. Right.

Except that it happened to me. Why did... What was the reason? They were re... The studio and the network were 50-50 split on wanting to fire the girl in the first place

and they brought her back. Fuck. Yep. So then what'd you do? I was so depressed for so long. I was... I was dating a musician at the time and I poured my life into his life. Uh-huh.

You know that Jason Mraz guy? Uh-uh. He's a musician guy. I was dating him, and my life became his life when I got fired. But when do you start to take things into your own hands? Not until my 30s. Really? Isn't that fucking crazy?

So you're 23 when that happened? Yeah, 23, 24. And what the next... And I had just been fired and or had these huge highs that then became these monstrous lows. But you're not performing on your own yet? Well, I did stand up as a teenager.

Like I wasn't doing it. I wasn't pounding the pavement every night like you were. But I... Because my mom would have to take me. I was a child. Like I wasn't pounding the pavement as night like you were. But I... Because my mom would have to take me. I was a child. Like, I wasn't pounding the pavement as a stand-up. How old were you?

I was young. The few times I did Caroline's and the few times I did The Cellar... What are they, like on mics? Not even mics. It was like either shows where my agent would set it up or people knew that this younger person was coming with his kid. So why did that... When I brought up teenage comedy, you said you didn't do it.

Because I wasn't... I don't like to say that I was this person that was like. Trying to be a comic, right. I was a little bit, but it was a means, at that time it was a means to an end of like, I loved jokes, I loved schtick, and I was more doing comedy in rooms to get development deals, like in meetings. I wasn't like out. You weren't performing. Yeah, I wasn't out every night, but I was occasionally. And when I i got up there i had bits and i had shtick and i did it

no guitar just straight no guitar just stand up yeah um i didn't learn to play guitar till i was 20 you know that actor brad renfro he's no longer he overdosed on heroin he taught me to play guitar how'd you know him we did a movie called deu Wild, and it was a Scorsese produced, and everybody said it was a Scorsese movie, but it wasn't. And I was singing, and he was playing guitar, and he was like, you should play guitar. And it just, I mean, not that it hadn't occurred to me. I just was like, uh, okay. And he handed me the guitar and taught me a bunch of blues chords.

There you go. That's all you need, three chords. At that time, that was all I needed. Okay, so all this is now in place, and you've failed many times, taught me a bunch of blues chords. There you go. That's all you need. Three chords. At that time, that was all I needed. Okay. So all this is now in place and you've failed many times and you're just like being a codependent musician girlfriend. I mean, I just can think of a time where he was on his music video and needed a bite of a sandwich and just came over to me and neither of us spoke. And I just unwrapped the sandwich and put it in his mouth with my hand.

And then he took a bite and turned around and walked away and went back to the set. That was what I'd become at 25. Wow. So you're 24. So your confidence is all shattered. Your sense of self is all garbage. But I didn't, I wasn't cognizant of that because he, in his mind, like I was still funny and fun and like I wasn't walking around like, oh, kicking a can, but I wasn't asserting

myself and I wasn't trying to do comedy and I was still an actress. I was still going on auditions and trying to do things, but I wasn't making stuff. I wasn't writing. I wasn't, I mean, that sort of came i got really back into stand-up when like in my early 30s i was like so for five years you're just going out doing doing waiting for the phone touring and being bitter that and not being happy for my friends like that we're working and like you got all these shots and they didn't go and just being like oh you know my friend being on something and then everyone celebrating them

and then me, you know, quote, having plans that night and not going in. And I, a friend of mine actually called me out in probably one of the most dramatic turns my life has ever taken. One of my best friends called me out,

like in my, probably this was what changed my, like my life ultimately was. Yeah. She, I was being, I was trying to be a musician at, like, when I was 28 or something.

Yeah. And I made this record and it cost me so much fucking money. And I had no... Like, I had some money. Under your name? Yep. And I put this album out.

A comedy record? Nope. Just music. Because I was... I also have this other career as a songwriter. Like, I was signed to BMG and I was a published songwriter

and I wrote for, like... When was this? Catherine McPhee and christina aguilera and stuff uh the late how old are you 2000 at the time like 30 oh so this sort of happened after the musician boyfriend stuff oh yeah yeah so then i was like i did american idol when i was something 27 so then i was like being a songwriter and being a musician and taking a break from that was the change right so like so after the acting thing and the musician boyfriend he started to write songs and perform songs in your late 20s and then you were on American Idol and you're writing songs you thought like songwriting seemed like a good racket to get

into it's the worst racket to get into what if you deliver one though if you wrote a song you're not kidding. But I wasn't. So what ended up happening was that I was like realizing that I was spending all of my time and energy trying to write,

writing these songs in hopes that somebody would like one. And it just didn't, it was so not fulfilling. How did your friend call you out? Oh, well,

she made a record of sad piano songs in her closet. And it cost her zero dollars. And every single one of the songs got on Grey's Anatomy, got in movies, got everywhere. And I remember we were all at a party once and everyone was hugging her and congratulating her at some huge movie. Her delicious, beautiful little piano song was in this monster fucking movie. Yeah.

And everyone was freaking out and I think she'd invited me to come see it i didn't respond something gnarly right and then she said um you know and i was like she's and everyone was talking about seeing it yeah and i was like oh i haven't seen it yet you know and she just sent me an email like a couple days later and was like hey man uh i don't know how to say this without sounding crazy but i don't know what to even how to proceed here with this friendship because I can feel how not happy you are for me. Yeah. And it's repugnant. I can't.

I can't. I'm having trouble being around you when I know that what you feel toward me, when all I feel toward you is love. Like when you were on American Idol, I changed. I did a grassroots campaign for us all to change our names on facebook to your name just so your name would be everywhere all i've ever done is support oh my god again all i've ever done is support you and love you and you casually can't watch the fucking episode of anatomy where i have one thing going on and i was so disgusted with myself and i didn't even i i wasn't cognizant of that i was even doing it yeah and uh and my heart's pounding and i just was like oh god what happened to me and i like said

i'm coming to your house right now please open the door and she opened the door and it was like a hug fest and cry fest and she was like i can't believe that you were this responsive to this i thought you were just gonna say that's not true fuck you i am happy for you you just can't tell but you're showing up right now and that's what i kind of wanted you to do and we fixed it but i was like a rotting shitty version i've been trying to do the fucking thing for 20 years yeah i couldn't get any traction and I know that feeling. And I know you do. And I couldn't,

and I just couldn't fucking enjoy other people's success. Yeah, because you so hated yourself. Fucking hated myself. Yeah. And I was so disappointed in myself. You can't get out of it, though, when you're in it. And you try to be polite, you know,

and it's like, I don't know. Well, it's good that you were able to. Well, I was baby shaking out of it. It was unless i know but that friendship meant enough to you to do that you know like if you didn't have that like if you didn't have people that loved you or that people that you know you trusted and loved i mean you could have stayed there i would have i mean i don't know how else i would have gotten out because i couldn't see myself yeah because what's tricky about being a comic or being us is that we're in when we're in this fucking craggy state yeah it's funny and people still i know but i mean that like people still like you and it's not like i was

walking around and everyone was like well she turned into a real cunt right it was just when i would like fucking stab someone really slightly or just act out in a way that like was really showing my true cards as opposed to being a loving human with an open heart, which is what I want to be instead of like an angry, craggy, you know. There's not enough space for everyone. Bitter. Yeah, yeah. Bitter is the word. Right. And then you resign yourself to it and you think there's a truth to it.

And, you know, I guess you can make that funny. I mean, there's an intensity to it, but it's not. I don't even mean to make it funny. I just mean, like, inherently you're funny. I'm funny. So it's like when you're doing the thing that's like. I'm not that funny when I'm bitter. Maybe not when you're bitter, but I just mean craggy.

But that's what you're saying. When you start kind of poking people like that, you know how to do it instinctively. So there is that moment where it's funny, but it's sort of like, that was a little much. I was always good at the little much. Me too. Thank you. You hurt people. And it sucked.

But I didn't have that many. I can't think of any other real times in my life where something, I think I'm using the wrong term, but changed on a dime like i was literally a craggy angry not happy for people and the next day i had rainbow shooting out my asshole i was like after she called you it was like a new i was like it was like a film got lifted off my eyes but what was the american idol experience that you just didn't you lost lost? It was another, it was another epic high and epic, epic low. Where they, 118,000 people tried out that year. Yeah.

And I made the top 36. Yeah. But instead of doing a top 24 and then one person going home each week. Yeah. Excuse me, they did a top 36 and then they sent 24 people home at once and went directly to a top 12 so i was in that a massive chunk of people that went home it was all but i had given at that point i auditioned for it in august and i didn't go home until march and i was like sequestered and i was like in another planet right for eight months And then they owned me from the March,

from the date of my live show for 12 months. So I was owned by American Idol for 18 months. What at the time felt like nothing, but I'll tell you something, more weird, little, fun, magical shit has come from that than you can imagine. Like I'm still on meetings and like some guy that runs some,

some enormous company was like, I were, you're here because your name came across my desk and I loved you on idle. And there, we couldn't do anything with your mouth on, on like it was a singing competition and you were like roasting sea crest to his face and he didn't notice me had to edit everything out. And I knew at the time,

like this fucking kid. And then you got on glow and that was fun. And now you're here and up for this other thing. But this guy was like a PA editor, low-level guy on American Idol. That's hilarious. Who remembered me all the time. So it's like these weird little... Sure.

You've hung in there. So everything changed. You became a good person. That friend is still your friend? Yeah, she's one of my best friends still. Let's shout her out. Her name's Faye Wolf. Yeah?

And she's a beautiful musician so from that point on what that's when you start focusing on music more and doing comedy actually i at that similar time my friend um also great name jess saddleberger uh we would always do bits and she was like why don't you do stand-up and i was like i speaking of telling yourself stories i'd always dated stand-up comics i know you went with kyle yes kyle then again i'd always dated comics and i i was like i don't know it feels really negative it feels really like it's not you're real born again love person i was like well it just didn't feel like a happy thing to do i wasn't even born again lovey what i was doing was telling myself stories and giving myself what seemed like rational excuses to not do the thing i should

so fucking clearly do oh yeah that i was scared of right so instead of being like i'm scared and i have to start from the beginning and i don't know right so i was like i don't know it's negative it's dark in there i was at this club the other night and i would use some comics name that i saw who was like so drunk which is true so drunk passed out on the bar and like people were fans of his and he would just like lift his head and be like and then somehow he'd get on stage and do a perfectly cogent set and you're like that's not for you and i was like no this is but i but again that didn't have to be my experience i was just writing this story to keep my heart safe so i didn't get hurt by trying to do stand-up and failing or whatever it was.

Yeah. And so she was like, you really should do it. And then I joined this writer's group, this stand-up writer's group where you get together with 10 comics. Yeah. And you just go up at a mic in this room. And then people just pitch each other jokes. Yeah, yeah. And it became so positive and so community and so loving and so fucking cool.

And that was when, and there I was doing stand-up. And then people in that group were like coming to see me do sort of straight music. Yeah. And they were like, how are you not doing musical comedy? And I was like, I don't know, because I kind of roll my eyes at it. Right. We all do. I know.

I kind of was like, I don't really, when I see a comic with a guitar, I'm like, okay, let's see this hacky bullshit. But I think, but then you look at Jack Black and you don't feel that way. Or you look at when Adam Sandler does it and there's ways to do it that are not. If you don't do parody. Yeah. And I don't. Right.

And I don't. And I know you open for me. So I'll do that anytime. I love it. And, um, that crowd was so delightful. They're nice. Damn it. Um, and so then I started doing musical comedy and then it was like, oh, this is, not only

is it this cool, unique thing that separates you from everybody else, but it just so, it so just clicked. Yeah. And now that's pretty much my jam. I hardly do any straight stand-up anymore. Sure. Just schlep that guitar around. So what happened was, because of Glow, and then I'm making this animated preschool musical

series with Kristen Bell. It's called Do, Re, and Me. Oh, yeah. And it's three singing birds who are best friends who go on this musical adventure every episode. And we're doing a 52-episode first season. And so I'm EPing it, and I uh writing all the music for it and voicing it and so i'm i'm not the thing that had to take a back seat currently while making this show

was not going to the store the improv and trying to do two shows a night and just so that part of it it was the one thing i could go like okay okay, that can take a backseat today for now. Yeah. Because I can't. It's just because it's also such a nighttime game. Oh, yeah. I've got shit to do. But that's exciting, doing animated stuff and writing original music for it and characters.

Hell, yeah. So that's the thing you're doing now in GLOW. We're just sort of waiting on GLOW. We're waiting on GLOW. And you're great on GLOW. We've had a good time. You're great on GLOW. You don't annoy me as much. Yeah, it's true. You don't annoy me. We love each other. I time you're great uncle you don't annoy me as much yeah it's true you don't annoy me love each other i love you so much you don't annoy me

as much either i you never actually annoyed me how could i annoy you you're the annoying one that's crazy and that was that crazy it's true that i'm the annoying one i i don't deny that but you're the craggy one okay so you don't annoy me but you're like you know i'll be avoidant you know i think it's an interesting thing with you because't annoy me, but you're like, you know, I'll be avoidant. Uh-huh. You know, I think it's an interesting thing with you because I don't know if you're going to, like, when I see you, if I'm going to get a hug, a head nod, or be treated like the person with the fucking petition outside Whole Foods. Yeah. Like, I can't, I never know what, like, what's Maren going to do?

Hug me? Give me a head nod? I know. Okay. I need some consistency. Like, it shouldn't be that kind of, you shouldn't have to feel that just because it's only based on my day. Right.

But it's not like I don't feel, the good news about that is that I don't, no, I do care because I love you, but I don't feel like fear or negativity around it. It doesn't have anything to do with you. I just go like, I don't know what this is going to be. All right. I like to tell the story really quick before I go that when I, season one, when I would see you in the morning,

I'd go, hi, Mark. And you'd go, it's a lot. And all I did was say, hi, Mark. And I'd say to you, you know,

in the time it took you to say it's a lot, you could have just said, good morning, you fuck. And then I wouldn't walk. That was like our first interaction ever. It's a boundary thing. I love you. I love you. All right. Are we good? Are we done. It's a boundary thing.

I love you. I love you. All right. Are we good? Are we done? It's up to you. It's your show. And I'm so fucking happy to be here.

Thank you for having me, by the way. I think we covered a lot of stuff. We did. And we're done. That was Jackie Tone and me talking like we talk. Glow is on, streaming on Netflix three seasons. We'll be back again next year. And now I will play some droning guitar for you.

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