WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1067 - Joan Shelley

Episode Date: October 31, 2019

Marc doesn’t consider himself a “folk music guy” but he cannot deny how strongly he responds to singer-songwriter Joan Shelley’s work. Joan talks with Marc about her Kentucky upbringing and how she’s careful to respect the roots of folk music while also infusing her work with a vulnerability and texture that is her own. She also discusses her collaborative relationship with Nathan Salsburg, working with Jeff Tweedy as her producer, and her reasons for recording her latest album in Iceland. Plus, Joan gives some songwriting tips to Marc to help him overcome his own insecurity so he can finally write some songs. This episode is sponsored by Comedy Central, WNYC's Shattered podcast, SimpliSafe, and the Adult Swim Podcast. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast. I'm still doing it. I'm still doing my podcast. 10 years in, we're still going at it, still going strong, doing the shows, talking to the people. It still feels good to talk to people. For me, I don't know what you do with your life,

but if I didn't talk to a few people a week like I talk to the people here on the podcast, I think I would get a little squirrely. Can't spend that much time in my head. It's nice to get into somebody else's occasionally for a job three or four times a week, hopefully, talk to people. Yeah, it really keeps me sane, keeps me sane. Today is sort of an interesting conversation because I talked to Joan Shelley. She is a singer-songwriter in the folk tradition. And I just, you know, I just,

I don't know what it is, but I took to her. I get sent records, folks. I get sent records and I try to listen to all of them. I get sent records from individuals. I get sent records from labels. I get sent records. I just get sent records and sometimes I keep them

but sometimes there's just too many to keep. They're just, and I'm not, what am I going to do with them? I use them as barter. I go out and I trade them for records that I want. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so. I think that's fine.

And sometimes people at labels are persistent, but it didn't, this is a weird thing about Joan Shelley and my relationship with the music. I knew nothing about her, and I knew nothing about the world she occupied. Now I know there's some crossover with Bonnie Prince Billy, and from there there's a little crossover with my buddy Matt Sweeney, who knows Joan Shelley's plays with her, I don't know if they're married or it's her boyfriend, but Nathan Salzberg. I think I asked her, I don't remember. But my buddy Sweeney knows Nathan as this sort of musicologist, this guy who he works over at the Lomax Archive, I think. And he compiles all these historical songs from hundreds of years ago, how many hundreds of recorded music, but within the last century or two.

And he's known for this, and he's a historian, but he's also a player, a very revered, respected guitar player. And he plays with Joan, who's a great player and a great songwriter. But there's this whole world of folk music out there. I guess it's always been there. You wonder about these worlds. You wonder about the world of jazz. Sometimes I did, and it's still very active,

and there's still people that love it. Not unlike this folk music world, it's still out there. I mean, it crosses over with country, Americana, and a bit of the hipster singer songwriter thing. But there is a folk tradition, which I learned about more about on on Ken Burns's country documentary, which I finished took. It was like it's like eight episodes or like an hour and a half, two hours long. And it was fucking great. It's all the way through.

Even with the new guys, it was emotional. When you start to realize the community and family spirit of all these artists down there in Nashville, that was sort of the underpinning of the whole thing was that there's a tradition to country music that is sourced in many different traditions. But there is a community of country musicians and country music in Nashville that has gone on generations. And the arc of it is just beautiful. But a lot of that stuff, some of it was directly related to folk music. A great example and who kind of threads through two or three episodes was Emmylou Harris, who I didn't know a lot about, who I liked enough, but I didn't have her in the proper perspective. You know,

she started as a folk artist and then got brought into country by graham parsons of all people who was not inherently a country guy but he was another huge acolyte of the of the music and and you know really kind of went to the source with it and brought her down to the source of it. And she came out sort of a historian and again, almost a musical archivist through her own voice and renditions of old country songs to be this amazing influence in modern country music. So the folk tradition is kind of under that umbrella as well,

but it still exists, I guess is my point. I was taken by this music by uh by joan shelly's music there was something about the way she sang about her voice it moved me right and i had the no quarter record sent me the first record the name the guys over the guy over there i believe is uh mike quinn right so he sends me that record and then at some point i mentioned it on instagram like i really like this record and then like all of a sudden the other records start to come you know so there's been two or three I think three records

that I've gotten on No Quarter of Joan Shelley's and I like all of them but then right after the first one he's been kind of trying to get me to have her on for a long time and I just didn't know like what the conversation would be like what did I know about folk music how would it go?

I wasn't sure that we could converse for an hour. She seemed like a thoughtful, quiet, artistic, creative person, almost like a mountain person, I pictured, for some reason. And there's something about certain types of musicians where I'm like, I'm not sure we're going to hit it off. But Mike was persistent over time. And I was like, all right, all right, all right. And because I got the last record, which is great. I really enjoyed her new record here, which I think she recorded in Iceland. I believe I talked to her about it. It's called Like the River Loves the Sea. You can get that

wherever you get the music that you enjoy. And, you know, I had her on and she sang a song at the end, which is always lovely. And I have not recorded a lot of music up in this particular temporary studio between us. I'm almost, I can almost move back into a garage, folks. I can almost move back into the garage. It's almost happening. So anyways anyways that is the story of the joan shelly thing and now it fits into the whole arc of what i've been taking in

uh with the country the doc country with uh ken burns's country oh so such moving stuff man and so much of it had to do with community. It was funny because Nathan and Joan, Nathan Salzberg and Joan Shelley and Mike Quinn, I believe it was Mike Quinn. Yes. I invited them to the comedy store because I was performing the night that she recorded here with me. I was a little nervous because I felt like I was bringing these precious folk people, you know, into the den of just pure filth and iniquity. Like, you know, I'm like, you don't need to. I'd like it. If you want to come, you can come. But, like, you know, you guys are sweet folk people. And then I started really kind of spin out on, you know, how do I take in things?

How do I take in music? Are my tastes evolving as I get older? Do I still require the same things to enjoy something? Did I ever enjoy things or did they just get me high? Did they get me riled up or did they get me drifty? You know, like there's, there's music that kind of gets you out to sea a bit, you know, in sort of a melancholic way. A lot of questions, a lot of questions that were raised primarily by watching Ken Burns's country documentary. So I'm recording this yesterday. Happy Halloween. It's pretty scary out here, to be honest with you. Well, you you know this fire is just spontaneously happening everywhere it's fucking relentlessly aggravating and anxiety causing that the you know once a year for a few

weeks the entire state of california is on fucking fire and i just got all this work done on my house is that the wrong way to think about it i hope everybody who's had fire damage or is in the path of fire, I hope you're safe and your family is safe. I also don't want my house to burn down. Nobody does. But I didn't even get to use the new place I created for the podcast. It doesn't matter. I hope everybody's okay. I don't want to be selfish.

But it's scary. It's plenty scary on the eve of Halloween that a lot of the state is on fire. And also, given that I'm recording this yesterday, last night I recorded my special. And I don't know what to tell you. I can't tell you how it went because I haven't done it yet. I've got to go down there. Today's Wednesday. I'm sorry about the time fuck and the brain fuck. But I got to go down there in like three hours for the sound check. My outfit, I'm shooting at the Red Cat Theater. We got the set all built.

It's going to definitely look different than other comedy specials. I'll tell you that. It's just going to have a different vibe. Nice, intimate vibe. And I'm pretty excited about it. I know this shit. I've got the order written written down but i'm a little tweaked out my body is my body always does a thing before i have to do these things which is a even if i feel good mentally uh some part of the a deeper part of my brain says well that's okay i'm glad you're feeling good about yourself but we're gonna fuck you from in

here and maybe maybe you'll get a cold sore. How about a slight fever? Hey, maybe you'd enjoy a cold coming on right as you record. Like I feel these things, they don't generally happen, but man, my brain just fucks with me. Like right now I'm pretty, I'm pretty casual. I'm pretty comfortable. I'm recording this and I got to go do this. I got to go shoot my special tonight. Used to be like, I'd be fucked for days just thinking about it. But look, man, I have run this material. So I'll let you know how that went for reals on Monday, but just know it happened. Okay. Unless the entire city of LA burned down. It's so weird that the theme of my special is kind of apocalyptic and we are

in it out here right now. The end is not near, folks. The end is not near. It's here. It's here to stay from here on out. Enjoy. Do what you can. But

let's not delude ourselves completely all right it's you know we it's bad enough that you know i've raised the ire the the q anon folks who actually believe that they're you know being guided by some religious spirit that this massive conspiracy theory that explains everything that anyone can perceive and it connects all the dots doesn't equate to anything other than the face of satan is ridiculi yes yes and i am being paid again by george soros to say all of this got my soros check did any of you other broadcasters and tv people have you because i know there was a little hold up with the Soros check because I think that Obama wasn't able to co-sign on them last week. He was busy.

But, yeah. Yeah. Do you know? Do you religious folk know who Satan really is? Do you know who he really is? So reassessment of perception. Yeah. i like i don't know what okay boomer is i didn't know any of that and a lot of times when things are popular i don't understand why they're popular because i don't know what they are and i guess that's old man ism maybe

maybe that's what you would say okay boomer too but i don't uh i just i can't understand how things are popular and when i don't even know what they are and some of them i do but i don't uh i just i can't understand how things are popular and when i don't even know what they are and some of them i do but i'm still like that's really that popular and and and i don't know why i judge things like that it's because it's a self-centered thing it's a selfish i don't know if it's self-centered i just i don't take in a lot because there's so much going on and i'm so fucking busy so i just assume every once in a while i'll sync up with the rest of the culture and what i'm taking in i know a lot of people around the world are taking in that fucking joker movie i didn't pretty exciting i guess right to be part of in the largest grossing movie

r-rated movie in the history of movies i whatever that means i'm in it got a powerful 45 seconds in there or so huh yeah but yeah i've got to stop you know i've got to realize that i know very little about what's going on in the cultural world except for my little part of it and however i engage with it and i shouldn't be surprised by the popularity of things that i don't understand or know about with it and i shouldn't be surprised by the popularity of things that i don't understand or know about because that's just old man ism i just have to accept that it's it's just passing me by and a lot of times it's okay didn't need it was not the train i needed you got that's i guess that's part of wisdom is to realize like is that is that the is that my train? It's not, right? Okay, great. So Joan Shelley is here, and she's lovely, and she's great, and I enjoy her music a great deal.

And I didn't know if we would be able to have a conversation just because she seemed like a special and precious folk person. But we did it. And her new record, which I think is beautiful, is called Like the River Loves the Sea. And it's available now wherever you get music. And she will play a song from that at the end of our conversation. So listen up. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. end of our conversation. So listen up. Moosehead? Yes, because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

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required T's and C's apply. I swear to God, this has been going on, Joan, for years. Mike's been emailing me. Oh, good. He's good about that. Is he? Is that good? Is it good? You tell me. We're here now, so. I looked it up.

It was like March 3rd or March something. January, March 2017. Wow. When he first sent the Batchel Records. Oh, good. Yeah. And the Batchel Records, I had them and I'd listen to them and I listened to them more and then I put them aside for a while and then I get another email a year later. What's up with that? A year later. Wow. Or no, I mean, they came, you know, they kept coming. What's up with that? A year later. Wow.

Or no, I mean, they came, you know, they kept coming. But the music, I was very, I get every time I listen to it, I get very taken, very enchanted with the whole thing. But, you know, I feel like it's not essentially my style, but that's not really true. I think I'm afraid of the vulnerability of folk music. Sure. Me too. Are you? Yeah. It's not. I didn't choose folk music. Sure. Me too. Are you? Yeah. It's not,

I didn't choose folk music. I didn't listen to a lot of that stuff. Would you call it folk music? I think it is though, right?

Well, like 60s folk revival stuff. I didn't listen to that growing up. Right, but what you do, you'd call folk music. Because you got to

call it something. Yeah. And what happened to you? What happened to me? How did it happen? Well, I kind of discovered like british folk rock and i was like oh this is badass like richard thompson like yeah sandy denny richard thompson

and then then i got into the less rock folk of england like june taber do you know any of her stuff oh gosh this is these incredible vocalists what about the sad lady uh judy sill is that her name oh yeah judy still was california right california but she made she kind of made it hip in she made it big in england kind of i think all right so okay so you're listening to that stuff yeah yeah yeah and then i kind of got okay with the vulnerability through english folk rock and folk. Yeah. And then I came back and had more of an appreciation. Plus I found the early string band music, which is just out of this world cool. Who are we talking?

Well, I found Cousin Emmy, Addie Graham. I'm talking to females from Kentucky. Roscoe Holcomb, banjo player. Stuff that sounded just like abrasive. It sounded like punk rock to me. Right, right, right, yeah. And so it kind of gave me a way back in to appreciate the standard folk stuff.

Like the structure or the feeling or the vibe? Kind of a wildness that wasn't in mainstream music. Right, right, yeah, yeah. So like, but do you, I guess people don't really associate that with those cats but like if you listen to string band stuff and that like hootenanny stuff and all those old jug bands and weirdos from back then they were really going at it because they had to get a lot of people moving yeah yeah the dance bands are just incredible acoustic dance bands it's crazy

yeah that some of those blues guys would just sit there with an acoustic guitar in the middle of a floor. Yeah. So you're from Kentucky? Yeah. See, the thing is- From Louisville. Yeah.

But it's not rural. Right. So I have to make that clear. I'm not from the mountains. I'm not from Appalachia. But do you aspire to that? To be from the mountains? Yeah.

I mean, I know a lot of people from the mountains and respect them so much and they're proud. So you can't co-opt mountain culture. It's not cool. We're a river town, really. But people do co-opt mountain culture. Totally. It's big these days. I know. It seems like that sort of music

that, this is a weird thing, because I'm a guy, I'm wearing boots that I don't need. You know what I mean? But I like them. But I'm wearing boots that I don't need. You know what I mean? But I like them. But I'm not, my beard is reasonable. Yeah. I'm not doing that. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not doing, I don't know. Okay, so Kentucky. So what's the situation? You have a lot of siblings? Yeah, I have a half-brother, step-brother, step-sister, and brother. Yeah. So kind of complicated.

I got a lot of education on the family level. Explain it. I mean, that's every kind of relationship, right? Like if you have, say, one mother in common, you have a certain kind of dynamic. Oh, you mean like with your siblings? Yeah, learning about love, essentially essentially in relationships yeah early on well what was the parents situation my parents got divorced when i was three my mom got remarried when i was four and i got to i was sisters with my

best friend in kindergarten or whatever suddenly so it was pretty cool so your mom's husband had a kid two kids yeah that were around your age my stepfather had two kids yeah yeah so it was like we were three four five six yeah really tight and then an older brother by 12 years so wow it was crazy it was supposed to be the brady bunch and it was not that at all no and what's your old man what happened happened to that guy? Which this- The father. My father? The real father. Real father. He stayed around and he's a painter still, but pretty wild in terms of like when you needed him to be around, he'd be like, actually, I've got to go to New York now. You know, like very-

An opening, got a thing? No. Poetry reading? He just wanted to be around really good art and he never made it to have a gallery or anything, but he's still doing it and just. So he was a painter, artist painter. Yeah. Not a wall painter. Not a wall painter.

And he's still at it. Yeah. So you grew up with this bohemian dad who was a relatively absent-ish. Yeah, he was kind of, what is the word? Mercurial. Mercurial. Yeah. A wild man yeah he's very you know and he was emotionally as a kid it was just like can we stay at mom's house

not sure what he's gonna be like today oh one of those yeah i grew up with one of those yeah yeah what are we gonna get is it gonna make me cry or make me laugh? Yeah. Yeah, because the laughing part was more, you know. We'd have more fun. He would give us recorders. He didn't want TV in the house. Oh, no TV guy. He threw the TVs out one time.

Was he an old hippie or an old beatnik? He was right between. Uh-huh. He was, let's see, he was in New York in like the 60s. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, so he was in between. And he was a painter? Yeah. And a writer too or no?

No, just a painter. Very visually and not good with like words and stuff, he would say. Abstract? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. He was a big fan of like Rothko and Clifford Still and that kind of stuff. Floating colors. Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay, so you grew up with that and that kind of infused you withating colors. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so you grew up with that and that kind of infused you with your creative spirit, do you think? He was really encouraging. He gave you a recorder. So he gave us a little tape recorder and there's just hours of us entertaining,

my brother and I entertain ourselves with like makeup songs and skits and things and record all kinds of weird sounds and stuff. So that gave me like that validation. Well, yeah. I mean, it's nice to have one parent that's encouraging if you're going to do the creative thing. Yeah.

My mother used to make me practice guitar. I think most of what my mother made me do was to avoid being a mother. Like she'd be like, go in the room and do that thing so I don't have to deal with you. But you would do it. Yeah. Fortunately, some of it was fun. Like, go to camp, please, so I don't have to deal with it. And she had something to do.

She was like, I had to, yeah. Well, I don't know what she had to do. I just knew that she'd rather not deal with me. Right? I can see why. Sure. I know. I'm draining.

I'm exhausting. Yeah, I'm sure. All right. So Kentucky, Louisville, I've been there. I'm draining. I'm exhausting. Yeah, I'm sure. All right. So Kentucky, Louisville, I've been there. I've worked there, I believe. There used to be an improv there, I think. I know I've been there a couple of times because I have bookends that someone gave me. I used to have a friend there at Louisville.

Comedy Caravan. What was it over there? There was. There was a Comedy Caravan. Like a weird strip mall. Yeah. And his name. I never worked those people there. That was a family Sobel I think the Sobel gigs not important to you. Well, so you're like to know well

He had I did I think it was him that they had a bunch of one-nighters in that club there All over that area in the region and I never did those gigs. I never was a big southern act I don't know if that makes sense to you did those gigs I never was a big southern act I don't know if that makes sense to you no I'm not a huge hit down south really I know it doesn't I do okay Nashville yeah I do good you know I do good in the uh in the sort of the blue zones of the red you know but comedy's not music you can't just kind of charm your way in with the magic of melody. It's a point of view situation. Wow.

It could, yeah. So actually you would go in the South and people wouldn't laugh or something? No. I mean, there was one time, I had some problem in Lexington. Where is that? Lexington? That's Kentucky. Yeah, east of Louisville.

Yes. There was a lot of churches in Lexington, in my recollection, more than necessary. And I remember doing some fairly crass material about the Jesus. Oh, wow. And they gave you, huh. Well, it's just, you can feel it kind of not land. And then you don't really, I never got asked back to the club, is usually what happens. They'd rather have killer bees know, killer bees or somebody

like that. Do you know that guy? No. Didn't grow up with any Southern comedy? I was just thinking of Wu-Tang, killer bees. No, no. No, he's a kind of a regional guy. Okay. So there you are in the city, the big city of Kentucky. And what's your mom do? She's raised horses her whole life. Like since she was like 16. Yes. Crazy world. The horse world is very strange. And you grew up in it?

Yeah. Well, no, not in it. I actually was very contrary with my mom. She wanted me to, and it didn't make sense to me why I would ride in a circle. I loved trail riding. Yeah. I would do that with her. Can you still ride a horse?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you ride horses? No, not regularly. No, it feels kind of unnecessary. I wish, I mean, I like horses a lot. How would horse riding be necessary at all now? Well, there's farming.

People still cut down trees and drag them through the woods with horses. Do they? Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. It's better. You don't have to like plow the forest oh i see use the horse yeah do it but but what kind of stuff your mom trained them

she she yeah she would train them breed them kind of make these super horses oh really so not race horses what for what it's yeah for Well, it's essentially like having the Corvettes. An experiment? Oh, I see. So for rich people to buy a super horse just to have almost as a something, a hobby. Hobby horse. Yeah, totally. That was what it was. And that didn't appeal, you know, like I wanted everything to have a use. Right. That didn't appeal to you. It needed, it wasn't practical just to have a super horse that didn't do anything. Well, it did a lot. Yeah.

But genetically, did they breed them to be super horses or she just train them? It's just the same way you would. I mean, people breed dogs or something and they look for the best traits and not genetic, mutate, whatever. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. It's purebred stuff.

They have a genealogy, a family situation. The horse is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I get it. Descended from. I grew up in, we had a show dog. Really? Did you go to the show?

Yeah, my old man, my dad showed the dog for a while. He was a champion. Good for him. A thoroughbred old English sheep dog. Cool. Well, yeah, dog shows are weird, man. I mean, I was pretty young. They're entertaining. Yeah, the people are, it's a little much. I go just to watch sometimes. You go to

dog shows? Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, it's like a whole different planet. Yeah? It's something like, you're like, the dog shows in town? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. It's really cheap entertainment, isn't it? I guess so. And people, that walk that they do.

Oh, yeah. Like it's just, it's so, it's like some, it's, they're like stage moms to dogs. You know what I mean? Like there's this weird kind of like control freaky, you know, come on, come on. But, you know, don't listen like a kid. I always feel like the dog looks a little kind of like, what? I'm doing it. You know, a little nervous come on. But don't listen like a kid. I always feel like the dog looks a little kind of like, what? I'm doing it. You know, a little nervous about it.

Well, yeah. Some of them are beautiful, though. Yeah. Do you go to horse shows? No. That's because you're fighting your mom. You refuse. Well, no.

I go and see what she's up to when she goes and stuff. But, yeah. But if she's doing the horse thing thing that's sort of a country thing she must be out in the country oh she was i mean she went to like old cattle what was the ranch out new mexico she went to school out in new mexico and we're just like go yeah yeah oh right where'd she go to school in new mexico she went to university in new mexico oh right in albuquerque yeah wow and she got a connection probably the same age as me. Your mom.

I had older parents. Oh, you did? Is she around still? Yeah. All right. So you're being nice? Is that what's happening right now? What do you mean?

You're not going to say anything too bad about your mom? Well, I'm not going to say her age because I love you, Mom. Oh, sweet. And what did your stepdad do? He, medical equipment sales. I can't remember. I always didn't get it as a kid. He would have like medical masks and like tweezers in the basement and stuff. He would go take those to hospitals and sell them.

Oh, he was like a door-to-door tweezer salesman. That's right. For hospitals. Yeah. Like we would find the razor blades in the basement and like be playing with them when we shouldn't have been. I remember just like cutting my hands all up and not wanting to tell the parents. Like, oh wow, like disposable surgical blades and that kind of stuff. So he's kind of a supplier. You work for some sort of supplier. Well, if you're the salesperson. Yeah. You got to represent somebody. He wasn't just

winging it. We're assuming. Yeah. Just orders it on. Yeah, just has boxes of stuff for hospitals. Yikes. So when did the guitar start happening? I was writing songs from a young age, but I never had an instrument. So I think I found the guitar. My mom had a guitar in the attic, and I was maybe 16, 16 years old. It was just up there? Yeah, she had a guitar that she kept from college.

That she used to play? Yeah, she used to play. Was it a good one? Was it an exciting thing to find? I think it was hard to play. The action was really high. Steel string? Steel string.

Yeah. It wasn't super friendly on a young finger situation. But you figured it out? Yeah, there was a chord chart up there, and I just kind of learned chords. You did on your own? Yeah. Well, they had the circles you know you put your fingers yeah yeah I remember yeah yeah I tell myself do you know a lot of chords

now I do but I didn't you know only you only need like three you do only need three for a lifetime sometimes some people are making money at it some people go three chords for the whole run maybe add a fourth one in there, a minor. Oh my gosh. Gotta get that minor. That's important. So you start playing on your own and you never take a lesson?

I did take a few lessons from different, like maybe I dabbled in lessons a couple times and didn't take guitar lessons, but I took banjo a couple from a friend of mine. Just a friend of yours showed you how to play banjo yeah what's the fic you got a finger picking right

did you start doing finger picking like on guitar uh no I did strummy stuff how'd you train yourself to finger pick can you finger pick I'm trying yeah I mean you just practice, right? But do you do two finger or all of them? On guitar? Yeah. I probably use four. Right. Yeah. Like thumb and three.

Yeah. I do a lot of rolls because of learning banjo. Like I can. Oh, right, right, right. Or different plucking patterns where you use two and then one hits the. Yeah. I just had a minor breakthrough with the finger picking. I don't practice it as much as I should.

I know that if I just practice it, I can get it. But I needed... You refuse to practice. No, I practice, but I just play. I don't... Like, recently, but I tried to figure out Sam's Boogie,

you know, the Magic Sam thing. Is that a big popular... It's not a big popular or anything. It's an old piece of tape, an old footage of Magic Sam playing someone else's guitar and doing this crazy riff. And I talked to Sweeney about it, you know, Sweeney, you know, and he tried to figure it out and he eventually figured it out. And I'm like, can I figure, and I figured out the first part of it, which is pretty exciting. And it's two finger picking though. I love two finger picking.

I think that's really all I, I mean, when I think like RL Burnside, there's this amazing video. Yeah, yeah. Him playing and just using. Two. So little, yeah. Yeah, that's what Sweeney's into now too.

No one's playing with picks anymore. Everyone's going with their thumb. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, that's like, it's like, I don't know, it's some purist shit but then i start looking at people there's a lot of dudes that don't they don't play with picks they just use their thumbs maybe you're just becoming aware and it's always been there i guess is there a

different sound it's kind of a different sound yeah i mean picks to me sound well i play a different kind of music so it's quieter, right? Right. But I've always liked the connection. Like rhythmically, I didn't like having the pick in the way. Yeah. Something to me, unless you're doing like Travis picking and all that, or you're trying to get as many notes in as possible. It's hard to get a lot of notes in with just your thumb, isn't it? Yeah, unless you're doing all the fingers.

Yeah, right. Yeah. But just like, right but with right so okay so you start writing songs now like i've i'm like this is the weird thing about you and the music oh tell me is that like i don't like i i connect to music and melody more than i connect to words generally yeah like i listen to things that way you know i don't listen to songs to hear what's being said most of the time. I just get moved by someone's voice or a melody or, you know, just the tone of the music. And then like, but like I had to go in and read the words, listen to the words, look at your words, you know know you had to because you were doing no no no because like i wanted to like i i've been a little better at doing it like listening because i don't understand

how songwriting works you know i obviously there's some songs like beetle songs or whatever that are in my head and i know a lot of songs but i only maybe know half a verse of it too but yeah but the whole idea of songwriting to me is it's not is how is it different than poetry really well like you're saying i think people can get away with nonsense if the feeling is there right yeah and people have been saying nonsense in pop music and rock music forever i know yeah and not always yeah yeah there's a lot of like hey hey hey's and yeah yeah yes yeah you know and if you really listen to some of that stuff it's like it's kind of ridiculous yeah i mean i've ruined music for me in a lot of ways for

trying to get better at writing lyrics and then then by listening to lyrics you can't listen to a lot of songs i used to love oh really or like you know some rolling stone songs were just like oh god really terrible well just yeah because it's almost conflicting too it'd be like when you get a refrain or you say like the yeah yeah yeah follow something that you wouldn't say yeah to right right and that kind of stuff that there was the logic was off right yeah i mean i listen to some songs i'm like that's stupid but then you got to realize like well who's singing it and does it fit them like you know i know more acdc lyrics and i'd really like to be admit but it seems perfectly fitting for that band yeah whatever the hell they're singing about

it's pretty basic kind of lewd but it's okay but then i read your lyrics and they're singing about. It's pretty basic, kind of lewd, but it's okay. But then I read your lyrics and they're complicated because they're not, it's not, a lot of them don't, there's no narrative. There's no, it's not exactly a story being told, but they're a little more cryptic in that, like I can relate to half of what's in there and it moves me in a way that I don't understand.

And that's the magic of it right right hopefully yeah yeah in the best case in the new record there's like there's a lot of there's some like there's a weight to it it's I don't think it's sad but it's a all of them all the a lot of the songs are reflections on on love possible you know maybe impossible maybe passing maybe age maybe sort of like this should have happened, but it didn't. A lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah.

There's so much to deal. I mean, I think of, there's something that, what is his name? Federico Garcia Lorca. He would always, he was on this, listening to music that was this other section of the brain. I think there's just music for dancing. Yeah. Right? And then there's music for coping with everything difficult in your life.

Right. And that music, he found it in lullabies and all this stuff and the dark stories that we used to tell. And a lot of traditional music has that murder ballad situation or that long black veil yeah just loss and sadness that song kills me

I mean right I want songs to kill us in these ways so long black veil I think I did play it and like an

yeah open mic situation oh really in an open mic situation yeah I like the band's version a lot because I like the way Rick Danko sang.

It's an amazing voice, yeah. Right? Yeah. And talk about compelling. Makes me cry just saying his name. The warble in his voice is so heart-grabbing. The vulnerability of him is sort of insane. But it's different than Richard Manuel,

who is just too much for me. Too sad. I can hear the too sadness and Robbie I don't deal with leave on there seems to be a kind of like a managing vulnerability yeah and but Danko's just sort of almost childlike I think I just explained all of the band's vocal capacities. Yeah. And dismissing Robbie entirely. As you should. I'm sorry. And I've talked to that guy.

I know that guy. He's another one though, like man, I try to figure out how he plays and what makes it like boring to me in a way. Oh. And because he's obviously a great player, but you don't know any of his licks really.

It's kind of weird. I know the songs. Yeah. I mean, he can definitely play, but like, I'm like, I don't look at him like, I don't know any of his licks really it's kind of weird i know the songs yeah i mean he can definitely play but like i'm like i don't look at him like i don't like i want to play like him yeah who do you want to play like nathan salzburg who i play with all the time yeah now what's up with that guy now you guys are couple yeah all right so you don't like talking about it too much because it's like oh i'll I'll have to answer for that. Or when people are watching us play any lyric that has to do with love, they'll be like, oh, she says that about him. Right?

Yeah. I'm telling you, if a lot of them are about him, he's in trouble. Right. It's not all about Nathan. Well, it took me a long time to realize that, too, about songwriters. It's not all autobiographical. I think I learned it when I talked to Nick Lowe. I'm like, it's not you?

You're not writing about you? He's like, no, these are characters or they're coming from a different place. It's not all me. Well, that and also it is all him. Right. It's like when saying you're having a dream and somebody appears. Yeah. That somebody is still in you.

Right. Right. Yeah, I don't allow people to say that it's not them. You don't allow it. I don't permit that knowledge to penetrate my brain. Yeah, I still think as much as we try to say we're telling the story of somebody else. Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, it was like with that,

with him, it was The Beast and Me, which he wrote for Johnny Cash. So I think in that situation, you can sort of write for that character. Yeah, put on a voice. And I do that too. You do. In what situation would you do that? Well, there's a song, Jenny Come In.

I remember thinking, I want to sing in the voice of a male, from a perspective of the male that I reference is the one that I'm making. And it kind of had a country, yeah. I didn't write for someone like, this one's for Taylor Swift or something like that. But you were thinking in terms of a dude. Different.

Yeah. Different perspective. Try. But Nathan Salzberg, I knew nothing about him really until yesterday. Yeah. different perspective. Try, you know. But Nathan Salzberg, I knew nothing about him really until yesterday. Yeah. I think. Because like Sweeney was like,

no, you got to check. And he texted me all this stuff. Yeah. And I didn't even have time to go through it. I know he works for the, he worked for the Allen. He still does, yeah. It's the Allen Lomax Archive.

He's the curator for the Allen Lomax Archive. So he's like, he's in charge of the roots of all American music and some global music. For getting some of it out there, yeah. So that means, and he's also a guitar player, like an extraordinary finger-picking maniac. He doesn't strike me as a maniac, but he can play. Yeah. And he has all these resources. Yeah. I don't, he doesn't strike me as a maniac, but he's a, he can play. Yeah.

And he has all these resources. Yeah. From historical resources. Mm-hmm. And when did you meet that guy? I met him

when I came back to Louisville in 2009. Yeah. I saw him playing with some friends. Yeah. In Louisville.

He lives there. Yeah. That's where the He lives there. Yeah. That's where the archive is? Well, since it's digitized, he was in New York for seven years. And then once it was all digitized, he could live anywhere and still do this. Well, not to talk about him too much, but what is the responsibility of managing a stagnant archive? Right. Well, there's still so much that isn't on, isn't out there. So you're always, yeah, he deals with putting things up on YouTube and citing everything.

Oh, okay. So he's like taking all of Alan Womack's field recordings and putting them into, digitizing them and then getting them out into the world yeah some of it's in the library of congress most of the older stuff is in there but there's still stuff i think it's from the 70s but he would yeah i don't know 70s on that was in alan lomax's collection that they still have to manage and and did you know like update the you know where i have some i do some of it with him and it's like on dvc cams like old formats that you'd have to put on a newer format and stuff like that. Oh, like what's a DVC cam? I don't even know. I mean, a little tape. Oh, okay. A little videotape.

So it's an ongoing. So he has to experience and discover all this weird old music. Yeah. Like weekly. And try to find its context and maybe any living relatives and stuff like that. To the performers? Mm-hmm. So there's whole stories that unfold.

Yeah, hopefully. The best case scenario is you get to bring that music back to a community that didn't know that that's what they produced. And they can get royalties back to the people who descended from the... Yeah. Is there a lot of big royalties with some of that stuff? I mean, Beyonce sampled some stuff from the archive. Oh, that's right. Yeah, there's big money in sampling from it.

Moby did all that stuff, you remember? Yeah. Did they just take it thinking they could just get away with it? No, I think they know that it costs money to sample things these days. Does he start introducing you to this stuff that changes your approach to music yeah as soon as i met him and knew what he was up to i was like i need as many of the like female voices that you have because there was a big kentucky uh trip the southern journey that's actually the 60th anniversary of the Southern Journey for Alan Lomax.

And he went through Kentucky and down to the Delta. And I wanted to hear some women because so much of the history of recorded music excludes women's voices. I was just ready to get the download. I just wanted all of it. I wanted to consume it and he was kind of, he was like, here's a few things but, you know,

he wanted, you can, all of us can research this on our own. It's out there. Right. So, so he just didn't,

he didn't want to overwhelm you. He just kind of give you a taste. Here's a few. I think he wants people to do their own work too. Instead of wanting somebody. But you're dating a guy and he's got.

Well now I can, yeah. That was when I first met him and everything. He gave me some great Aunt Molly Jackson stuff. That's how he reels he's got that. Well, now I can, yeah. That was when I first met him and everything. He gave me some great Aunt Molly Jackson stuff. That's how he reels you in. Right. Well, we were friends for a long time.

Here's some old women singing songs. That's how you get me, world. Yeah. Seriously. I'm going to blow your mind with some old tracks. It worked, huh? Seriously, look up Aunt Molly Jackson. She's got one of the creakiest, oldest sounding voices ever.

You would be amazed. And that affected you how? Well, I was just excited to hear. She was an activist too, so I was excited to hear this woman from the coal fields just being like, no, this isn't right. And having kind of a sense of traditional music and then also she wrote songs herself and stuff like that. So protest music, early protest music in a way, kind of?

Yeah, she went up to New York and I think that crew were excited to have an authentic mountain person come in and encouraged her. Do you know that movie, Llewyn Davis? Yeah, yeah. That end of that movie is so genius. Well, the dulcimer player. Remember the woman who came from the real hills?

Oh, yeah. Was that Jean Ritchie in the movie or no? I don't remember who played that part, but the dude, her dude, after Llewyn, who was drunk, mocked her, beat the shit out of him in the alley. Man, I need to watch it again. It was so well done. It was beautiful, you know,

but it was that moment where the hipster, the appropriator, you know, the sort of the scene of that time in the 60s of these folkies, you know, for him to be condescending to, you know, a true kind of like Appalachian, you know, dulcimer playing woman, you know, and then the cowboy, the man that she was with

just popped him in the alley. Like, it was like, it was such a schooling. Yeah, well, that was what Alan Lomax was trying to do 60 years ago. The journey was in a reaction to the 60s folk revival in New York because he was seeing all these like young college kids being like, we are so proud of themselves for reviving dead music. the 60s folk revival in New York because he was seeing all these like young college kids being

like we are so proud of themselves for reviving dead music right and he was like this music is still alive in the places it came from and he wanted to record it and kind of prove to the young folks who were kind of co-opting it so aggressively right that there was still living tradition and they didn't need to play it for them you know like for it to still be alive they just needed to support maybe the places that it came from oh interesting so that was the agenda yeah he was out to prove it yeah because like there's a i saw a documentary about fahey and and and a couple of guys that fahey was always after skip james i think right that was his grail. And then there was these other dudes

that were after Death Letter. What's his, why am I forgetting his name? It's not Fred McDowell, Sunhouse. Yeah, Sunhouse. So yeah, so it was like, that was a journey for these two crews of like musicians and blues nerds was to find these acts.

And I think that still plays with Lomax's intention is that once they found out fred mcdowell yeah he found fred mcdowell but i think that fahey and and his cohort found skip in a hospital yeah but he was all right you know they pulled him out and he lived a few years and they had him up in newport and you know and he churned out a couple records and the guys who found uh son house they thought he was down south he turned up in upstate new york wow you know like he's hanging out and they pulled him out and tried to get that was there was one newport festival where a lot of those cats it was the

first resurrection of a lot of those dudes and uh it's just so good some of them could handle it some couldn't you know ultimately but skip was like that guy's magic where's the where's that voice come from yeah i talked to taj mahal once you know in the old house and he picked up this crappy old guitar i had because i was asking him where skip comes from where's that guitar come from he goes comes from africa and he picked up this this k guitar i got beautiful yeah but it's all i only you know i never even changed the strings on it and he just lays out two like senegalese kind of like skip jamesy things for three seconds taj picks it up and i'm like well and that was it he didn't play he didn't bring it he wasn't going to play but

for that three seconds like it was so immediate and so connected and so quick like three notes i'm like what is that how did you? Yeah. So you go back to Kentucky. Do you, what's your lineage? Do you, do you, if you, do you feel like you come from that? I would say. Do you ever look into that? Look into it like. Like your past.

Like, you know, how do you like. Genealogically. Yeah, sure. I mean, like you're attached to where you grew up, but I mean, is your family been there forever? Yeah. I mean, you're attached to where you grew up, but I mean, has your family been there forever? Yeah, there's some. I just visited my great, great, great grandfather and grandmother's graves in Hanson, Kentucky. But that's like Western.

Yeah. So a lot of the tobacco region in my family. Yeah. And what was there? Where'd they come from? Ireland, Britain, Wales? All over. Like deeply mudded.

Yeah. But there is some. But they've been there since like the 1600s, 1700s? That kind of shit? Like way back? You don't know. I think I've got some Irish that's like three, four generations back. Yeah.

So that's the only one I can say like I know. Right. So what do you like when you listen to this music? Like what are the threads of it of the kind of stuff you're resonating with is it celtic like what it what like you know what oh yeah i love that stuff right because that's a lot of the mode is similar to a lot of like north african stuff too you hear that like modal yeah kind of deeply soulful yeah um yeah it's weird how it's all connected huh it is so who are some of the other

sources like when you get these old these older acts these older performers these older artists these women that you were researching what are some other names that um well there's a lot of actually english guitar players yeah that i deeply connect with but um dick gawkin scottish uh nick jones English guitar player. And I said June Tabor. She was a big one. And Anne Briggs, another English person. Yeah.

I don't know. A lot of them actually less than voices were songs, like melodies that I would be really struck by. Yeah. And a lot of those come in the modal form. And so there's old songs like string band songs that were child ballads. You know, the child ballads, English, like ancient songs that came over with immigrants to the United States. And a lot of them were left in the mountains because that's where radio didn't kind of homogenize.

So that's why we think of them as mountain songs. But they were all over. And Kentucky was a very wild west for the colonies a lot of English Irish um music came in and blended with like the African-American music and the Native American music and you hear it in so much of the banjo songs that I love like Darling Corey um Sugar Babe is this one about kind of like I guess a stripper it's a very strange lyrics and then like a lot of the Lord Daniel stuff stories about

like a pregnant woman coming to a castle and being like please let me in this is your child and or whatever and the Lord being like no thanks good luck with that yeah and it's sung in these great like southern accents you know how did you where do you get

this stuff where is it online oh yeah it's all online a lot of people are doing versions of it but there's some great stuff in the archive the mx archive um and that's free yeah yeah there isn't a new podcast a new podcast oh great um that's what the world needs i know there's a great cartoon it's a two people sitting down and it's That's what the world needs. I know. There's a great cartoon. It's two people sitting down and it's one person saying to the other, like, I'm thinking about stopping a podcast. It's really good. Yeah. Put an end to it. What's the new podcast? But it's Nathan digging in the archive and kind of pulling it out. Oh, yeah? Is Ernie Lomax is alive? Yeah. Anna Lomax, his daughter daughter's still alive and running the organization.

Mm-hmm. Huh. And son, I think. So it was always acoustic music with you? There was not a time where you were in a rock band? I definitely had played in a band first. Acoustic came later. But what was the thing?

Because when I listen to the music and I look at the pictures on your records and the poem that came with the last one, it seems like an entire way of life. The acoustic way of life? Yes. It is. I learned that. I mean. Was it, what, didn't, weren't, did you rock out? I mean, I. When you were younger? I know I did play with a five piece band

and the record Electric Ursa which was my second the first and second ones are more a rock situation and they come from that Louisville I played with a lot of Louisville musicians like Rachel Grimes and Joe Manning and Kevin Raderman

people that came from like the punk rock scene. And that's a lot of what music in Louisville now is people that came to folk and country music through punk. Because you're all grown up. Well, yeah, that. Plus also, when you look for the same impulse, but it's kind of matured, you can't kind of go back and listen to punk bands.

Right. What they were saying was a little bit youthful and maybe too simple. But so when it gets more complex, you see a lot of people looking to old time music for that kind of the wildness I was talking about. Yeah. A little bit of a counterculture that's like, no, we don't want to sound smooth.

We don't want to sound auto-tuned and, I mean. Yeah. Just. Who's doing that stuff? Like, I mean, well, that's interesting to me that a lot of these, because it's happened. I've seen it in other, like in some of the older punk rock guys, is that if you stay in the game and you still have the spirit for it, even if you're not making any bread, you know, you've got to grow somehow. You've got to age into it. You can't be playing that shit, you know you've got to grow somehow you've got to age into it you can't be playing that shit you know in your 50s even in your 40s if you didn't make

a hit to begin with right so you sort of got to evolve with the music and uh that's it makes total sense what's your relationship with uh michael hurley's music no just pure love um i can't get over that very first record was that the one he did for folkways yeah yeah i cannot get over that record like uh blue mountain that song blue mountain i mean what the fuck where did that come from he's like a alien child person he's still around too yeah we're gonna go see him in in oregon do you know him yeah we played shows together and you and nathan hung out in my house yeah oh yeah um he he's like still i gave him he came to louisville one time and came over to my house and i just sat down like a bunch of colored pencils and some paper and a case of beer in front of him and he

just slammed the case of beer and made the most amazing drawings. It's weird. It could be a child if it was a box of cereal. Yeah. Unfortunately, it's not. Maybe that would have been better. Yeah. So he made an amazing drawing.

Was he passed out on top of it? No, he's got this energy. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's like 75 or something how's his shows good yeah he can be kind of wild you don't know what you're gonna get so um tell me like now answer some songwriting questions and then maybe we'll play a song the new record i have the self-titled one i have rivers and vessels and i have the new one like the river loves to see but this last one or the or the one before this one you did with tweety yeah I have the self-titled one. I have Rivers and Vessels. And then I have the new one, Like the River Loves the Sea.

But this last one, or the one before this one you did with Tweety? Yeah. In Chicago. Yeah. I've interviewed that guy. So how do you know him? How do you guys all meet each other? And Will Oldham, too, who I don't think we like each other.

I don't know. I'm sure he doesn't not like you. I don't know. I've met him once. It was difficult.'t like it just it was awkward i was with sweeney he seemed to be like yeah okay all right fine you know just dismissive and fuck it so like what am i gonna do it's not me i know he's a wonderful artist and he's contributed a lot to the world but i've met him, and he seemed to just ice me. I think Will's more a mirror. So you just saw what you wanted to see in the mirror of Will.

Do you really think that? I think the way he holds himself makes people really doubt themselves. He's not exactly forthcoming and makes you at ease, right? So he's socially awkward and it's somehow my fault? Yes, I don't know. That's very good. Okay, I believe you. No, I mean, look, I like the guy. Matt likes him.

Everybody likes him. But people have been like, why don't you talk to him? And I'm like, we couldn't even manage a greeting. Oh, man. It depends on where were you. On the street, New York. That's probably not the best thing. No, I respect the guy. I like his stuff. But how did the Jeff Tweedy thing come about? it depends on and where were you on the street new york that's probably not no i'm a i respect

the guy i like his stuff but how do you how did the jeff tweedy thing come okay so jeff and i met the first time on a radio show or a mountain stage in west virginia on valentine's day oh yeah yeah but he had heard the record before over and even. Yeah. And I think it's through just being in music all this time and you know people in common. And James Elkington was playing in the Tweety Band at the time. And he's a good friend of ours who produced this last record. In Iceland. In Iceland, yeah.

And he's played with Nathan Salzberg. They have a guitar duo's thing thing or yeah do a guitar records right and so i think that's how through jim elkington and and being you know playing music together and stuff so we talked jeff and nathan and i were talking and i guess i didn't expect for him to have such serious like punk rock roots it? Jeff, yeah. It was cool to know that because I guess I was afraid of working with people who didn't have that sense

of like, perfect isn't good. Let's not go for perfect. Right. You know, and, or pure and all those words

that just like make me cringe. And people that have that background in punk rock and just kind of, like are open to the prep. Let it be raw. Let it kind of be flawed and raw.

Yeah, human. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, human for sure. And then you just kind of hammered it out? Yeah, he had some time and loft. I hear that loft's amazing. I've never been there. God, you's amazing. I've never been there. God, you've got to go.

I've talked to him. And as a producer, he was good to work with? Yeah, at first I was like, is this going to happen? Because we were supposed to show up on a Monday. And he's like, oh, actually, I can't be there on Monday. I was like, oh, here it goes. It's going to fall through. And it turns out when he came back, it was because he was taking um mavis staples

to the like president's dinner whatever like awards oh yeah it's like oh i guess that's a pretty metal of honor presentation kind of deal yeah is it something with the rainbow did she get a medal yeah oh yeah she got recognized by obama so but then after that it was great he was just i didn't expect him to play on the record but he played bass all over the record and was so uh kind of the counterintuitive i think he played like reverse sounding bass line and stuff like that it was just so cool and all these the whole place is lined with ancient guitars and basses and amps and it's a dream for a guitar player oh i gotta go check it out.

I primarily deal with new instruments. No, you don't. I'm looking around. That amp is old. Yeah. I guess that Strat, I bought that new in 86. So that's pretty old now. New then. Okay.

Yeah. 96, 2006. So it's like 35 years old. Yeah. That thing. I just got it out again. This J45 is relatively new. J. Yeah. That thing. I just got it out again. This J45 is relatively new. J, cool.

Do you like new stuff better for some reason? I just like, I don't know. I have not gone shopping for really old shit. I have one old weird big Gibson in the closet that I really like. It's called an FJN. They only made them for a little while. It's got this short, fat, classical-sized neck on a steel string.

Have you seen those things? It's got the double, it's got two white pick guards, like flamenco pick guards. Jackson Brown plays them. You see them around not too often, but they're a very full-sounding guitar. I have that, that old thing. I just haven't gone shopping for them,

and they're exorbitant price-wise. And I've got some reissues and I'm not a professional guitar player and I don't want to be one of those idiots who amasses precious cargo from people that really could probably, you know. Well, that's nice of you.

I'm not a collector. I just like to play. Yeah. You know? What do you play? That's good. I play a Collings. It's like a 90- play. Yeah. You know, what do you play? I play a Collings. It's like a 90 something.

Yeah. It's an orchestra model. So smaller kind of guitar, more for finger picking. And I got that from my cousin when she passed away. So I've just had this like way too fancy for me guitar this whole time. Oh, really? Because before that, like i was just playing i think i had a pretty basic washburn or not a washburn like a modern yeah it's a new

and this one's sort of a little better this one's very much yeah it's good what happened she had cancer oh yeah sorry sorry so why iceland why did what what was that about you know like this new record's great it's beautiful you, they all sound production-wise kind of different. You know? And I mean, Iceland, I've never been there. I have a romantic idea of it. It seems like spatially it would be a good poetic place to be. Why'd you go there?

Well, kind of for that reason they all sound different. I like to not revisit the same experience again so that there's some kind of new connection to have not a habit like not so you're relaxed that you're not paying attention yeah trying out new things so i just find it's rewarding to go take people out of their home life habits yeah be in a concentrated period of time and in work there like for example so iceland i thought this would be great this is the same studio that will oldham did the letting go yeah one of my favorite albums of his yeah bjork helped set it up i think greenhouse and all this stuff it just it was crazy to get the opportunity to do it bjork was there she's one of the you saw her who started oh yeah we had a bjork spotting but we

didn't hang out oh yeah but the studio is is of her and another fellow's brainchild yeah and is it like like nice super nice is it on can you see you can see. Pretty stuff though? Is it sitting in the middle of something beautiful? Is it on a fjord or something? It's outside Reykjavik. And kind of you can see the mountains in the distance. But nearby, we were told just as we were leaving the studio that there was like the last witch in Iceland was drowned in this like witch drowning pool right beside it.

I was like, this is darker than I thought. Yeah. How do you feel? How do you feel it affected the album? The witch drowning pool? The witch. Well, not the witch, but just being in Iceland. Being in Iceland.

It's just, so Kentucky is really a humid place. Yeah. I think of atmosphereospheres really influencing people's mindset and music actually influences the reverberation of sound. Yeah.

So you're kind of in this clear feeling environment with a different kind of light and it just I don't know.

Yeah. Did you write any of the songs up there? No. So all the songs were written in Kentucky. And when you write any of the songs up there? No. You brought them all with you? So all the songs were written in Kentucky. And when you write a song, do you think in terms of melody first or do you just write the stuff at the same time?

Yeah, the same moment. So I would always use the melody to find the words. Really? That's how I put it. Like you were saying, because if I went to sit down and just write linearly, I don't think my brain works that way. Just like you don't come up with a phrase. Right. Just like you don't come up with a phrase. Right. There's nothing. Like with music, you can start the line and some part of your brain knows

the rhyme is coming and it works ahead of you and it works behind. But music is the way that opens that kind of interconnectivity, that cyclical kind of thinking for me. Right. Oh, wow. Because i i'm gonna write a song soon can't wait i think i've written some already you think yeah i just i don't think i'm good at melody man i mean it's like i'm a one four five dude you know what i mean it's like it's straight up for me three chords if it's not one four five it's one uh you know like if if it doesn like if it doesn't go, you know, sometimes I like go. That's a lot of chords. Right.

So it's like one, it would be an A, right? So one, G. I love that thing. I love that thing. That's nice. Yeah. What makes that hard to sing a melody to? Well, I just feel like it's always going to be the same melody.

And it's always going to go along with the bass chords because I don't have the range to understand really how melody works. I don't, you know, I'm not that confident a a singer so it's always going to be some form of because you're following yeah yeah so like how do you get out from under that I don't know I come up with all kinds of uh constraints that helps me like if you were to say okay you're not going to write a melody you're going to sing the same note the whole time. Oh, yeah. Like that's when the chords are changing. That's a melody. Just stay on it. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. I just got to just do it. I just got to quit everything. Just throw your whole heart in. Yeah. Yeah. It's time.

That's what the world needs is another guy in his mid-50s to enter the musical ecosystem. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Amateur. More people enter the musical ecosystem. I think so, yeah. Yeah, an amateur. More people enter the music system. A hobbyist. Another hobbyist has to enter with his big ideas.

I don't think music, no, because that's, it's like, it's hard stuff. It's not a hobby. It's not like painting model planes. I can't like that. I was terrified to sing in public forever.

But now you do? Because to me, I will with my eyes closed. But it's also, I'm not great at playing and singing. Well, I can do it with some stuff

at the same time. But to me, it was so revealing, so exposing, so vulnerable that like there was no way to hide it all. Whereas musicians feel differently. Because I do comedy. I have no problem with that. But musicians are like, revealing so exposing so vulnerable that like there was no way to hide at all whereas musicians

feel differently because i do comedy i have no problem with that but musicians are like how the fuck do you do that you know they're they're more comfortable with singing yeah you know for but for me singing it's just sort of like oh yeah yeah and i'm okay at it but it's just too like you can't hide at all i don't think yeah but you can hide if you have a five-piece band in there. Exactly. Hey, we don't need an audience. There's no one here. That's all right.

We got us. Let's go. All right, do you want to play a song now? Sure. Do you feel good about what's happened here? Yeah, I always feel bad about talking about music. You do? Yeah.

Why? Well, it was made to stand alone, probably. I know, but you got to go out and sell it. Oh, gosh. Well, then that's why I feel bad. Yeah. You're doing all right, though, right? I'm doing fine.

People come? Yeah, people come. Well, that's nice. People that like quiet music come. Quiet music. Yeah. The quiet people. The quiet, tender-hearted people.

You see them out there. Yeah, they exist. They still exist. I know they exist. No, there's a lot of them. Yeah. It's so nice. It's so sweet. You got to take care of them.

Yeah. We all got to take care of each other. That's what I hear. All right. Let's try and figure this out. Okay. See, I think that sounds pretty good. Let me get levels.

What are you going to play? I'll do the fading. Okay. upon our skin Your form it lingers A trace just where you've been Songs we sang I'll sing again When it breaks down

Babe let's try To see the beauty in all the fading I saw the river Thick with mud Break through the banks and run And I confess I liked it I cheered the flood

When the water hit the banks and won and it breaks down babe let's try to see the beauty in all the fading the roads are endless, they seem to grow Vines that wind around the world

I know I hate it to leave my home But I love that car when I need to go When it breaks down Oh babe, let's try To see the beauty in all the fleeting And old Kentucky Stays in my mind It's sweet to be five years behind

And that's where I'll be When the seas rise Holding my dear friends and drinking wine When it breaks down, babe let's try To see the beauty in all the fading When it breaks down, the stakes get high To see the beauty in all the fading. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was so good. Thanks. Feel good to you? so good. Thanks. Feel good to you? Feels good. Thank you for coming.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm shocked, really. Us Kentuckians get asked out. We don't understand why. Well, I can't explain, really, the sort of sway your music has over me. And I go back to it a lot. So I had to meet you and talk to you.

Thanks. Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful music up here in this temporary studio in my house upstairs in my spare room. The new album is called Like the River Loves the Sea. It's available now wherever you get music. That was Joan Shelley. I will not play music today out of respect for the professional music that was played just moments ago. Okay, Boomer? Boomer lives! We'll be right back. We deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too.

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