WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1068 - John Goodman

Episode Date: November 4, 2019

John Goodman has more than four decades of experience on stage, in movies, and on television, but he’s just now learning to trust himself. After a lifetime of trying to please everyone and beating himself up over everything, John tells Marc what finally caused his perception to shift. John also talks about being shaped by comic books and Mad Magazine, finding inspiration working with David Byrne and Al Pacino early in his career, and why he knew there was something special about the Coen Brothers the first time he saw one of their scripts. This episode is sponsored by Zoro.com, Squarespace, and Stamps.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck nicks? What the fucktresses? How's it the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fucktresses how's it going i am mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it hope you're okay i am okay i'm all right i've been doing coffee on and off yeah i still have a coffee sponsor

i don't do it it's it's sort of like a given, but justcoffee.coop still sends me a couple of bags, three or four bags a month of coffee just from years of that loyalty, that dynamic that we had forever. I've always got some coming in and I hadn't been drinking it for a while. I've been using it for barter. Gifts and barter. Hey, you need some coffee, pal? Here you go. I'll give you two bags of coffee and these two records for those two records. Yes, actual barter down at Gimme Gimme usually with Dan down there. But now I'm sort of back on it.

I'm having a little bit of coffee here and there. And it's amazing how quickly it just creeps up on you, man. I'd forgotten what it's like to be fully capable and jacked out of your brain for some excitable and excited conversation in the morning. But I'm starting to feel that a little bit again. I've been drinking like a little bit of coffee in the morning and then tea later in the afternoon. But I can slowly feel the coffee just creeping up on me.

A little bit. John Goodman is on the show today and what a what a nice fella had a nice kind of weighty chat with john uh great guy he's obviously you know him from everything he's currently on the connors um but you know him from the coen brothers movie you know him from rosanne you know he. You know him from Roseanne. It's John Goodman. And I was thrilled to talk to him. So Trick or Treat, how was it for you?

Oh, I haven't talked to you since the special. Let's start with Trick or Treat and then I'll go back a bit. There's a couple of things going on. And I'll tell you exactly what went down with the special. But I bought a ton of fucking candy. Good stuff too. I don't fuck don't know what you like but i know what's good and it's probably better than what you like i'm full on you know i got a full bag of reese's glow-in-the-dark reese's the it's just a packaging and then i got uh a bag of what was in there, Twix, Snickers, Three Musketeers Caramel, and then another kind of Snickers. Pretty good. Solid. But kids started coming, man. I got back in time. I had the big

bucket of candy and they started coming and I thought like, I got to get through this because I cannot have any of this. My agenda on Halloween was to have no leftover candy. And I thought it was inevitable that I would have leftover candy, but I really couldn't have it in the house. So when they started coming at 630 or so, I started giving these kids like three each. Three or four kids would come. Three pieces of candy, two or three pieces of candy. And then all of a sudden they just kept coming. I had like 30 or 40 kids and their parents. I had some really young kids with their parents.

I was just wearing like, you know, I was wearing my workout clothes, actually, because I'd just gotten down from the mountain. I cooked dinner and then they started coming. So I didn't change. And it was very cute. All the costumes were cute. The parents' costumes were cute. But there was one kid who came with his parents, and he was holding some sort of thing with a blinking light on it. I don't remember what.

Maybe it was the actual basket that you put the candy in had some sort of light on it. But I walked to the door in my shorts, and the kid could see me, and he was terrified. I had no costume on, and I could see this kid must have been maybe three and I just came running up to the door and he backed up and I'm I was like what take it easy kid you know and I opened the door and give him the candy and he's still looking at me like what the fuck is this guy and uh eventually I just said oh you, you look so cute, and it was nice to him, and then he was like, the light, the light, the light, and he kept pointing to the blinking light, and I think he overcame his fear, and he wanted me to know and see and acknowledge the light that he found so

much joy in, and I did that, and I felt better. Didn't want the kid leaving scared. So what's the point? Point is, I held back like five pieces of candy because there were large groups of kids coming to my door. Some of them a little old for the trick-or-treating, I think, to be quite honest with you. And I didn't want to have another group come and then come up one short for some kid. Because for some reason in my mind, I thought, like, I don't want to ruin some kid some kids life what if some three-year-old comes up and i don't have any more candy what am i get do do i want to be that memory do i want to be that disappointing guy do i want that to be stuck in some kids like it's really going to make that big a deal christ it's not emotional abuse it's just a grown-up out of candy but i held held back five, and that was it.

And I threw them in the freezer, and the next night I ate them, and they were so fucking good. I wish I'd kept more, but I'm glad I didn't keep more. Whatever, folks. That was Halloween. Went well. The other thing I want, again, again, I should fucking write him an email. I must have his email.

Got to thank Ken Burns for this country documentary. I finished watching it, all eight of them. They're about an hour and a half, two hours each. And it's just one of those things. Like I said, I had some country records, but I had no context. And now I have a whole new pantheon of magicians and wizards to be emotionally engaged with their stories. And I'm talking about country music performers.

And, you know, it filled with wonder about their music because now I have a context for them. Now, I told you about Jimmy Rogers and the Carter family, but, you know, I went out and I chased down some Bill Monroe records. I downloaded the nitty gritty dirt bands. May the circle be unbroken because it was them pulling some of the old timers in. Roy Acuff and Doc Watson and Vassar Clements and Maybel Carter. And I'm reinvested in Dolly Parton. I just picked up another George Jones and Tammy Wynette record. I pulled out my Leuven Brothers record.

I pulled out my Earl Scruggs and Lester Flats record. And now I'm invested. So thanks again, Ken Burns, for giving me this whole, it's just a whole world that I feel connected to because there's no country without blues and there's no jazz without blues and everything's sort of this, it's all kind of swirls together. And I'm just, I'm thrilled about it. I'm thrilled to have this backdrop, to have these people sort of be real people in my mind as I listen to their music now. listen to their music now. So the special, as many of you know, last week, it took months, years even, over a year leading up to this taping of my new Netflix special. And again,

apologies to Boston for not being able to do it, but we chose the Red Cat Theater here in LA, which only seats a few hundred people. It's a large black box theater, they call it. And we built a beautiful set for the show. But my one fear going in, and this happened after the fact, like I knew we would make it look great, which it did. I knew we could do all the things we wanted to do with the camera, which we could. But my fear was that this was one of those theaters where people, it's a type of theater where they do experimental stuff. It's a type of theater where it doesn't have the big proscenium. It's not a huge theater. It's a black box theater. And when you go to a black box theater, you're waiting for something intense. You're waiting for something intimate and impactful. You're waiting for something heavy. It's not a funny space.

Now, I'm not saying that the larger theaters, the proscenium theaters, the mostly vaudeville houses and old theaters and cities, you're not expecting something, but they all sort of have their dug-in personality, whereas a black box is something you can make whatever you want but there's also I just felt there was going to be some some expectations and some not apprehension but just a kind of intensity to the space itself that would might stand in the way of laughter but it was Wednesday night and there was a seven o'clock and a ten o'clock taping now a seven o'clock show even on a Friday or Saturday, people got to come right from work,

and I didn't know who was going to be there, and we only made about 200 and change, maybe a little over 200 seats available for each show, which is very intimate. But man, I'm all jacked up. I got my new clothes on. We're backstage. We're doing it.

We're doing sound checks. I got Luke Schwartz opening for me, getting people warmed up a little bit. And then you go out and you got all the cameras and it's a TV taping. And I've been working this shit a lot. And I go out on that 7 o'clock show and the audience wasn't bad, but my fears about the space were realized is that they were present, but they weren't laughing enough. And as a comic, you kind of need the laughter to get a role going. But the thing was, is I didn't feel like I got over the hump. And it was nobody's fault.

You know, but like in between shows, I was kind of frustrated. I was like, I'm glad we have another one. I hope it goes good. But everybody there, Netflix people, everybody's like, that was great. That was great. That was great. And I'm like, thank you. It was great. But in my heart, heart I was like it's got to be better

than that I got to connect better than that why the fuck did I do it at this theater is this next show going to be a problem am I fucked am I gonna have a mediocre special I know it's gonna look great but I don't want to have to you know sweeten it or add laughs or any of that kind of shit like what what fuck man I was a little freaked out folks so going into the second taping at 10 i was like god damn it man i gotta stay open you stay even more open and fucking connect with this deliver this shit and it was great the second show it rolled i improvised a bit i got loose i kind of you know was myself more and maybe that's always the way it goes but uh thank fucking god even if i don't believe in god necessarily thank the universe for doing i didn't

to walk away from a special taping and not feel like you got it what a nightmare so it went good i think it's going to be pretty i think it's a pretty powerful bunch of material. Pretty, pretty, you know, I take it to the edge. I take it to the edge, folks. So listen, before I bring up John Goodman, I wanted to read this email. I thought it was nice if I could. This is from Allie. Subject line, Argus. Hi, Mark.

I am halfway through your episode with Argus Hamilton, and I wanted to share a small story with you. I saw the Monday newsletter announced that he would be on the show. I was very happy to see you'd finally been able to get him on. Argus played a small but important role in my early teen life. When I was 12 or 13, 1985 or 86, my dad checked into the care unit at Cedars, 30-day program for alcohol addiction. I'd go visit him. And while I liked visiting him, I started asking to go so I could talk to his roommate. His roommate was this funny, nice guy who talked to me like I was an adult, didn't talk down to me, and was genuinely interested in chatting with his roommate's daughter. It will come as no surprise that this was Argus. I think he finished the program before

my dad did or vice versa, so at some point I knew I likely wasn't going to see him ever again. His parting gift to me was a Comedy Store t-shirt that I wore all the time. It was pretty much my favorite thing for a long time. I still have it somewhere. At the time, I didn't know much about the Comedy Store, just a little I'd heard from Argus. And obviously, it wasn't until years later I came to learn about its history. Over the years, I'd see his name somewhere and was happy he was A, still alive, and B, still working and doing what he loved. And I always looked forward to hearing guests on your show or you mention him. So thank you, Mark, for finally having him on the ride to work this morning. Definitely sparked a strong

memory. And that voice, that voice, it's exactly the same as I remember. Best, Allie. Thanks for that email. That's so nice. I like hearing about things that, you know, have an impact on you when you're younger and they're good things. and then they come sort of full circle. I'm happy I had him on, and he told me he's getting great feedback from it, so that's nice. Now, look, folks, John Goodman doesn't talk much like this in public. He doesn't do a lot of these kind of long-form interviews it was a it was really you know and you know he's such a sweet guy such a memorable guy such a you know huge talent and uh sort of a part of all of our lives if you've been alive watching anything movies or television for the last two decades or three decades even so so this was great. And as I mentioned before, The Conners airs Tuesdays on ABC.

And I'm sure you can enjoy. Go enjoy John Goodman and whatever he's done. And now you can enjoy me and him talking right now. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations. How a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category.

And what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global

best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun.

A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Oh. 18+. 18+. Subscription required. T's and C's apply. Oh. I was on the lozenges.

Yeah. Oh, my God. They give me too much nicotine, and I start getting hiccups. Oh, you get the hiccups? Yeah. Some people get that weird thing with the gum, too, the stomach or the hiccup. Yeah, I, my God. They give me too much nicotine, and I start getting hiccups. Oh, you get the hiccups? Yeah. Some people get that weird thing with the gum, too, the stomach or the hiccup. Yeah, I do, too. Oh, yeah. No, I just ate them all day long.

I would go to sleep with them in my mouth. Oh, man. Anyway, and I'd wake up, and it was like the first thing I'd do. I couldn't, like, I just, it was so, it was just so good. Yeah. I get to the point where I'm shaking. When you don't have them? No, when I do.

Oh, when you do it? Yeah, and I don't know. No, I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah. I don't know what. I never got involved with the vape thing because it was too much like the cigarettes. Yeah. And I haven't smoked a cigarette for over a decade, but I got on those lozenges.

Yeah. And then I'd go, then I'd smoke, what happened is I'd get off them all together, then I'd smoke one cigar and then like, you know, then two cigars and then, you know, I'm eating cigars, you know, and then I got to get on the Nick. I inhale them. The cigars? Yeah. Yeah.

You can't help it. You can't. I mean, I just can't, but I've been off them for two months, and I can't. And now I'm off everything. I've been sober for like 20 years. And now, not great. It beats the alternative, man. That's for sure.

I got 12 years myself. Yeah. It's good, right? Yeah. Oh, my God. It's getting better, too. Right? It does.

You know, it's like when you finally get that clarity and you're feeling you know relatively comfortable in your own skin i mean the worst thing about it is that uh you know that's it that's all there is yeah that's that's the hardest thing to accept but i didn't know that for 30 years right right right and it took me a long time to just okay this is all right yeah and when i look around it's better than all right it's pretty good it's good the gratitude element is the always the missing factor when you're hard on yourself you know because i'm just sort of like fuck it you know what the fuck what's the fucking point i'm an asshole and then and then you know if you

if you're able to manage it which i'm not great at you know it's okay well i yeah i figured nobody owes me on the thing right take care of yourself right nobody owes you anything but that doesn't mean there's not a world full of assholes out there oh yeah and mostly they you have to laugh at them yeah well that's the best way to do it yeah you know as opposed to sort of my my thing is is i get into a thing where like that guy's an asshole why am i not more like him yeah he's successful yeah exactly why am i a medium level successful asshole why do i try so much well that's the thing and then i pretend like i'm not trying i don't think but i don't you find that as you get older you give give less of a fuck? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a big part of it. Natural, right? Yeah.

It just happens. When I'm fine with I don't have to please everybody, which is like a big deal with me. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, when did you learn that one? Just listen. Yeah? Yeah.

When did you learn that one? I didn't. I'm still doing it. Not pleasing people? Yeah, but at least I know when I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, usually I can please people without trying so fucking hard at it. Well, right. still doing it not pleasing people but at least i know when i'm doing it yeah and yeah it was usually i can please people without trying so fucking hard at it all right when you're not

sitting there assuming you know what they're thinking yeah i that's a that's a weird key to the whole thing is realizing like i'm making up most of what other people are thinking about me or about this projecting yeah your shit on them yeah and what what do they need i'll provide that yeah and then you just end up exhausted and drained and you can't fix people and yeah if i'm in new york i start talking with a new york accent oh i'll do that too yeah and uh england yeah do you do english too no yeah but it sounds exactly like what it is what is that about a dick with ears what i don't know i do that too like you can hear it on the podcast like if i get somebody in here who's new york or jewish like mel brooks was on the show

i talked jesus within minutes i'm like are you kidding me of course i think no yeah i'm from brooklyn 1940 you know like what is that and and keep me out of Texas yeah you did oh yeah I just go to it I don't but it happens naturally right yeah I can't figure out what that is what part of my brain does that because I do that too but you think it's sort of a people pleaser and you do want to be one of you right but is that pleasing them or is it just sort of like I'm done with me you seem to have a good handle on yourself my brain says that I should be more like that. It's just like surrendering everything I am to what they want.

Or just want to be like that. Can I fix that truck for you? I know nothing about trucks. Yeah. Let me pop the hood. I don't know what's under there. Oh, damn. I haven't done this for years.

I mean, where'd you grow up? In St. Louis. Is there a Missouri accent? I'm sure there is. Yeah, I went to school in Springfield, Missouri, and that's a little bit closer to those arcs. I was just in St. Louis. Missouri is like a slightly frightening state to me. Yeah.

A little bit. A little bit conservative for my taste. Yeah, a lot conservative. Yeah, I would say so. But I did shows st louis and it was what's surprising is is that uh you know there's terrified uh progressive people everywhere and they'll come out hey i am yeah yeah right oh yeah i gotta go there thursday you do yeah i'm doing something at washington university q a or something and that's in st. Louis? Yeah. And you don't know what it is?

It's supposed to be a lecture thing, but I have absolutely nothing to give or add to anybody. Can they just ask me stuff? Just give me a moderator and a chair. Somebody I can hear. Yeah. So they just want you to – you didn't go to school there? No, that was like the Harvard of St. Louis. I mean, it's a real great school.

And what is the umbrella of the lecture series? Is it an acting thing? You don't know? They wanted a famous guy from St. Louis, I guess. They could get Kevin Kline. That was it? Short list? Yeah. So you grew up there.

How many, you got brothers and sisters? I got one brother, 14 years older, and a sister that's almost two years younger. Yeah, apparently my mom had a partial hysterectomy, and I was a major surprise, because my brother was born in 1938. Yeah. And then there was World War II when it came back, and I came along in 52, which shocked everybody. So that's a real baby boomer. Yeah.

And your brother was already there 14 years. Yeah. Wow. So is he still around? Yeah. That's great. Yeah. He's in St. Louis.

And so was your dad in the military? Yeah. Oh, he went? Yeah. I don't know much about it because he died a month before my second birthday. Wow. And before my sister was born. So like right before? He died in May. She was born in November. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. That's terrible. But I guess on some level, you have no memory of him. No, none at all. And so you dealt with that sort of that absence thing the whole time, huh?

Yeah, yeah. My brother came back. He had to leave, just get out. And he came back, and he was like a stranger and trying to do the right thing with me. Right. And I just kind of cocooned. Oh, really?

Yeah. You just clammed in? I just lived in my room in the basement and really nerded out oh yeah yeah and your brother was trying to sort of step in a little bit yeah yeah where did he go off to uh i don't know he went away then he wound up in detroit for a long time when when the old man passed he was like i gotta go he was yeah i was 14 years old though so he finished school right so, so it was devastating. Like a year early.

Yeah. Went away to college for a little while, then took off. Did he do the hippie thing, or no? No. It was a little early for that. More aligned with beats. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he dug bop.

Bop, right. So, yeah, a lot of my happiest memories, he turned what we called the hi-fi. Yeah. Cranked it up with Charlie Parker and shit like that. Yeah, I really liked it. Yeah, of course, right? You either got a brain for that or you don't. I guess so.

It's sort of like drugs. They're kind of connected. I'm in the mood for drugs. Yeah, but some people listen to jazz and they're like, I can't. Yeah, turn it off. Especially bop, you know. I would immediately get that heroin slouch going. Yeah, me too.

Like, it's like a Ritalin effect. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it. Like, that was the character you did in Inside the Wind. Oh, yeah, yeah. That guy was great. Yeah, it was all on the page. It was there?

Yeah. But you could tap into it if you were a jazz fan. You're like, I know this guy. They did. The thing was, after we were done, first Ethan said, was he gay? Yeah. I said, I don't know. He was certainly leaning he'll do until one comes along.

Yeah, right, right. We didn't know what instrument he played. I swore he was a piano player. Joel thought he played saxophone. No one knew? And swore he was a piano player. Joel thought he played saxophone. No one knew? And Ethan thought he was a trumpet player. Yeah. But they just left that open.

Yeah. So on the page, it was just a jazz musician, drug problem. Yeah. Yeah, that guy was great. He was sort of Burroughs-y, too, a little bit. Yeah. It felt a little William Burroughs kind of vibe. It's all locked in.

Yeah, it's all. It's stored. I can access all that. So at least you had that. I guess your older brother was groovy. Yeah. And he turned you on to some shit. Yeah, and comedy.

Yeah? Yeah. I guess it made me happy to see him laugh, so I kind of dig the same things he did we go out to the car to listen to bob and ray on um on the radio yeah uh ernie kovacs oh yeah um on tv sid caesar yeah yeah i show shows that crazy stuff yeah they were funny right yeah they were legitimately funny because like i don't i you know i don't have i'm i'm, so my memories are mostly repeats of that era, but I guess you caught

a bit of it, right? I caught the end of it. Ernie Kovacs, he had a gig on ABC, and I definitely remember that, because it was surreal. Trippy, right? For some reason, I always dug that, but not quite connected. Yeah, yeah. You got some laughs together? Yeah.

Do you still? I mean, do you guys still? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah that's wild yeah i can't so so there you are in missouri like what what is what's your mom doing to keep things afloat uh she'd do laundry for other people babysit kids worked at a drug store worked at a rib joint um so you got ribs like yeah i could steal her tips um good barbecue coming into the house at at least. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I was like a latchkey kid.

You and your sister? Yeah. When we were, like, a lot younger, we'd call her store, her drugstore, all the time. Right. And it pissed the owners off. Because you just had to talk to mom. Yeah. That's all. Is she all right?

Yeah. Yeah. She kept you afloat, huh? Yeah. Yeah. The house was paid for afloat, huh? Yeah. Yeah. The house was paid for, I guess, on GI Bill. Uh-huh. And she got a Social Security.

And I had to scramble a dude because she didn't have an education. And how long did she stay around for? 2,000. Yeah? Yeah. She had colon cancer. That's tough. Yeah man so when did you get to like how did you evolve into knowing you wanted to be in uh in front of people i mean i know you

played football or whatever that was not really well uh our high school team won one game in four years well what position i know nothing. Offensive guard and defensive tackle. Is that just because you were big and in the Midwest? Yeah. You just had to do it? That was it. I had a cousin that played for Missouri University, and so he was like a hero.

So I'm going to play football too. Organized baseball we couldn't afford, so I just didn't do it. We played sandlot ball. Oh, like in terms of little league yeah you mean you had to buy the uniform and pay into the um organization did you like that better baseball i don't know i mean just from sandlot games yeah but i really liked football but it's weird because like culturally i mean it's not you said you were down the basement nerding out what were you nerding out with? Comic books. Oh, really?

What were your comics? Radio. Oh, it was DC originally. Right. And I would get actual subscriptions to them. Oh, really? Yeah. So they were coming in.

Like the Atom. Yeah. Green Lantern. Yeah. And then somebody turned me on to Marvel. Oh, and when, yeah. Well, this is an inferior product, but then I kind of got into it because everything was linked up in Marvel. Yeah, yeah.

But that kept up for a long time. Still is, oddly. But my brother bought the very first copy of Mad Magazine in 1952. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was it. That was it for me because I dug. That was it. That was it for me because I dug.

If I could shoplift the paperbacks, the compilations of the real stuff with Will Elder. Yeah, yeah. And Harvey Kurtzman and all those great artists. And for some reason, I saw something one time. It made me laugh until I was crying. Yeah. Just that, man. And then.

Mad Magazine was great. So you got it when it was in a comic form? No, I didn't. But I got the compilations of when it was a comic form. In the paperback books. For me, it was... I'd get the magazine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I didn't know about the comic book stuff.

So you made the jump. So that's sort of like... That's the evolution. That's a nice evolution. Because if you stay in the DC Marvel world, you might remain a nerd. Yeah. Whereas you get a little mad magazine you get nerdier yeah yeah you get yeah you have little friends friends that you do

these little in jokes with with the mad magazine yeah well yeah but also it's sophisticated in the sense of it was cultural satire i'm smarter than you a little bit right because i thought mad magazine was like it was some sort of window into the grown-up world what it was was a window into uh judaism in an odd way because if i didn't know what something meant i'd look it up because i wanted to laugh more than anything and uh also like al jaffe and all those guys were all jewish and they didn't use yiddish words and stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Harvey Kurtzman. Dave Berg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave Berg. Was that his name?

The lighter side of. The lighter side of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I stuck with that until it kind of wasn't funny anymore. Yeah. It was about the same time I got out of the Boy Scouts. Oh, right. Yeah.

Did you go to National Lampoon at all? Yeah, big time. That's the next thing I remember. Yeah. There was a gap there because that didn't happen until I graduated high school. The Lampoon? Yeah, and then they cleaned up their act and got really good in 71. Right.

They started doing the clean edge parodies with the actual advertising photographs. Right, right. Remember the yearbook parody? Yeah. I have a copy of that. The yearbook and the uh the sunday newspaper yeah yeah yeah yeah it was all uh all around day crown ohio right right it was so funny that was mind-blowing to me yeah it was doug kenny yeah and pj aurora yeah yeah going back to their

high school days yep did you know those guys no i never did i uh doug kenny died i probably would have gotten to meet him. Yeah. I met PJ. He's still around. He's funny, but he's gotten, I think, politically dubious. Yeah. So you're coming into football with that kind of disposition. Was it not as jockey back then?

Were jocks not as? Yeah, the jockey or jocks were jockeyist. Yeah. A lot of them were pulleys yeah and did you but you were i wanted to fit in so fucking bad it um i never really bullied it bullied anybody because i was on that end of the stick for years for what little fat boy oh really yeah and you give you have to watch your turf because you go on the wrong turf that the catholic boys will beat you up. Yeah?

Yeah. And I would take beatings instead of trying to fight back. They beat you up for being a fat kid? No, because I was walking in their air. Oh, the Catholic kids. Yeah. So there was a Catholic neighborhood? Around the Catholic school. Oh, really?

But, yeah, where they congregated around the school. And I was friends with most of them. How did you grow up religion-wise? Southern Baptist. Oh, really? Yes, sir. So the gemstones wasn't too big of a... No, I have really good memories of, not good things, but good memories of sitting in church when I was a kid

and the guy never lowered his voice. Yeah, never lowered his voice. All yelling and going to a tent revival. All yelling. Yeah. Did it say that on the sign? All yelling all the time. Yeah, yeah.

Jesus, all yelling all the time. Our loud Lord. We're louder than you. Yeah. But you remember that, huh? was it a it was it was an exciting thing what it was was i was easily led so when i was younger i remember grabbing they they have a thing where they call you down to get your soul saved yeah and i was maybe nine or even younger yeah grabbing my sister and shoving her up so she could get her soul said she's screaming your little sister fighting me yeah and i'm oh you gotta go you gotta go but not you

yeah no yeah i'd already been saved yeah well that's i mean there's a curious thing like you know that whole kind of like people pleasing and, you know, wanting to be, you know, part of something. Because I felt that, too. Do you think like, you know, not having your old man around was sort of left a piece missing kind of thing? I'm sure it did. Yeah. But I didn't know it. Right.

I never, ever missed him because I didn't know him. Right. Well, because my dad was absent a lot and sort of a self-involved person. Right. Well, because my dad was absent a lot and sort of a self-involved person. But I know growing up, I always would gravitate towards charismatic, seemingly grounded dudes who were older than me that I thought could teach me something. Yeah, me too. Right? Yeah, my acting teacher in college was one of them. I considered him a father figure.

Yeah. And leaders in the Boy Scouts would help me out. But I was rudderless and had no discipline. How was the Boy Scouts discipline so i was a terrible student i i loved it did it get you disciplined or like it was i guess it did to a certain effect because i loved it i really liked it uh going out into the woods and shit like that yeah learning to smoke um yeah look at the playboys yeah did you is that where you first smoked, Boy Scouts? No, I smoked in a sewer tunnel when I was nine. Yeah. Winston's.

Yeah, with just on your own? Marlboro. Marlboro's. Marlboro's. And you light the cigarette and you have to inhale it and say your name and then exhale it. And that was a real smoke. Who taught you that?

Some older kid? Ollie Cromwell. How much older? He was the same age. Same? Yeah. He must have got it from his brother or something. Yeah i i don't know i don't care isn't it funny though with that stuff it's like you know you feel shitty it tastes weird but like you know you're like i'm gonna get the hang yeah you know i'm a little

nauseous but i'm gonna i'm gonna get the hang it was the next stage of development yeah uh you know like i had to wait to shave for a long time but it was not a not unlike that yeah um i loved it man yeah plus it was bad yeah very bad but they were so available though it was bad but oh shit man they were they were like 50 cents a pack back there it's like a quarter of quarter a pack for camels yeah that and gas two bad things were so cheap yeah and they were you get them at the same place. I remember the Husky Station in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was like 55 cents for a pack of cigarettes,

and the gallon of gas was like around the same. Yeah. Oh, talking about cigarettes. Love them. Yeah, I got those here vape things. I know, I know you do. All right, so the Boy Scouts helped you out, and then- Yeah, I really did, and because I liked it.

I guess it was maybe not necessarily discipline, but an organized thing because I was basically alone, and there were a lot of other kids doing the same thing. And, you know, I hung on to it until I was ninth grade, which is a little too long. You didn't go to Eagle? No I got as far as Star Scout. Oh I don't know what that is. Yeah it's two below Eagle but I wouldn't have made it. What were Weeblos? Weeblos was an organization where it wasn't I don't think it was like the SS or anything.

I don't think it was like the SS or anything. The security operation. My brother was a Weeblow. A Weeblow? Yeah. You stand in line at summer camp. You stand in the big circle, and an Indian runs around you, or a kid dressed like a Native American. Yeah.

And what they call tap you out. They thump you in the chest, and then you're a Weeblow. Oh, so it was a ritual thing. Yeah. It was the Ill illuminate of the yes the bavarian illuminate of the boy scout operation that was that was their wing so so when do you do the uh so the football thing you would you just did it you didn't think you were good at it no i knew i wasn't good i was just slow and uh we were all white yeah we didn't know any better yeah but i yeah i was slow but i loved

to hit and i was disorganized i just wouldn't learn plays i just like to be part of a team right and i like to hit but not a leader per se no no no no no i uh no leading no i just yeah i just like being part of a team so when did you first start getting into acting? I was in seventh grade. I was tapped. We had this acting teacher. She was a knockout. She was doing community theater in St. Louis.

She was in the union. Yeah. So to please her. Yeah. She picked me to be a part of a play called You Can't Take It With You, Coughlin and Hart. I was in that. I was Grandpa Vanderhoof. Oh, it was just chaos, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it's a well-timed farce, not the way a seventh grader would do it, eighth grader. With the bomb making or the uncle downstairs or whatever, yeah. So we only did one night of it, and I forgot my lines. And I said, hath of a long table and i got up and started improvising yeah because i just didn't i would not flop that just would not enter my brain um i will not fail at this yeah that's because in silence was deadly yeah so i don't know how i did it but i got up and started improvising until i got around the table. The lines came back, and I just got into it.

And my teacher, when it was over, gave me the biggest, nicest hug. And that was enough. And then in high school, I got into a couple of plays. Yeah. While you were playing ball? Yeah. There was no big deal. Yeah.

What were the plays? You remember? Lil Abner. Oh, yeah. And the next year, Hello Dolly when I was a senior. So did you find something up there on stage that was filling the void? I guess so because I wasn't cutting into football, and it turned out I was good at it.

Yeah. And I knew I was good at it, and I went away to a junior college. I didn't go away, but I went to a junior college, got involved there, and then I transferred to another college and just lost a year of my life fucking around a fraternity. Yeah. That wanting to belong thing again? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was it. Is that where the drinking got going? No, not really because I would drink like everybody else. I think I could still drink like everybody else i think i could still drink like everybody else yeah yeah yeah the drinking happened um i was going with a girl and she dumped me and i did it's the first time i've been out of a relationship in maybe four years yeah didn't know what to do with myself but i I was starting to make dough. This was in New York? Yeah, this was like 1978.

Oh, years later. Yeah. And Animal House had just come out. Right. Oh, I remember that. That was fun. So I'd go out every night and sit at an actor's bar. Yeah.

Just looking to see who walked in and shit like that. Talk to the bartenders. They're all actors. Right. And they got to be every night. And I started to gain a lot of weight. Yeah. And then I went to another bar, Cafe Central.

Yeah. On the Upper West Side. And there was a lot of actors in there. So it was a community thing. Yeah. Yeah. But it got to be, you know, I could have gotten my mail there. I was there every night during the day.

And, you know, that's how it gets tricky because you're like, my friends are up there. You know, I got friends. I started drinking heavy after a girl broke my heart. And I consciously decided, like, I'm going to be this guy now. It wasn't like it didn't ease in. Yeah. It was sort of like, this is my life.

Fuck her. Fuck them. I'm't ease in. Yeah. It was sort of like, this is my life. Fuck her. Fuck them. I'm living this way. Yeah. You know, even when I was drinking with a fraternity, it was just empty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd choose to go away by myself. Yeah.

But be near all these people. And, yeah, I guess I never did know how to drink normally. Yeah. I just had to have more. Well, the good thing about that is, is that like, and you're probably the same as me, I never think that I can. I really don't ever think that I can drink normally.

Yeah. If I ever think about drinking, it's like, who the fuck wants to even drink one beer? Yeah, it just, it can't happen. Yeah, and why would you want it's like jumping off a building and flying yeah yeah it's not gonna happen it's not gonna happen you know one beer goes to two beers goes to jack daniels goes to who's got blow who's got blow yeah that was always the thing is like i gotta stay up more for this and it was yeah yeah this

needs my full attention but the most fun part was yeah tracking it down oh which should take hours but you had to have it yeah and that was more fun than actually doing it i know once you yeah once you got it that the rush of getting it yeah it was actually yeah for sure and there was something about opening thele? Yeah, the bindle and looking inside, it being whole and pure. And the ritual of chopping it up. Oh, my God. Putting it on a key. Oh, the key.

Yeah, I use the key. My nose is starting to run. Yeah, a little bit. Or the pen top. Did you ever use the pen top? All the time, yeah. In the cigarettes, right? You put the bindle in the cigarettes.

Yeah. Same system. My nose is starting to run talking about it. Yeah, me too. i'm getting drips when i got when i'd start talking about blow yeah my nose would run yeah oh for sure but that was the thing like that you're sitting there do you remember that you're sitting there at a bar at two in the morning it's empty and you know you're you're on blow and you're sort of like things are going to turn around yeah it's just somebody's gonna walk in. Yeah, it's going to happen.

The girl of my dreams will walk in here now. Now. Now. Now. Right now. And what would happen if she did?

I'd be too jacked to do anything. Yeah. I hope she's got a lot of energy to talk. Yeah. Talk her pants off. Yeah, sitting around

strangers talking about shit. That was the worst. That's the worst part of people pleasing is when you're at a stranger's house doing their blow listening to them

oh shit and all you're thinking about is like oh it's gonna it's more coming we're gonna put some more lines yeah

yeah yeah do you mind if I get a little bit do you mind yeah can I just is that

anyone doing that one is that who's is that you mind yeah whoops oh I just, is anyone doing that one? Is that it? Who's is that? You mind? Yeah. Whoops. Oh, is that yours?

Oh, God damn it. Are we out? So, like, when you went, like, going to New York, though, that was a big jump. Yeah. That was a big deal for me. Yeah. I graduated. I didn't decide.

I did summer theater in Springfield, Missouri. And at the end of that, I said, well, I'm going to try this professionally. And you didn't know anybody? I thought I was pretty good. No. I knew a guy that did costumes in New York, and he agreed to let me land on him for a while. Right. So I took the Amtrak up to Penn Station, overtipped the cab driver, and landed on 92nd Street and stayed with this guy. And I was terrified.

It was overwhelming. You've never been there before? No. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's massive. I had a friend there who'd been there for a year. Yeah.

And he knew the ropes. He knew about auditions, which was important because he forced me to go to auditions. But just like casting call stuff? Or like you didn't have an agent or anything? No, you get it in a newspaper. Oh, right, right. Backstage. Right, backstage, yep.

And they tell you where to go, who's looking for what. And then it was all non-equity auditions. Right. And so you just started doing that? Yeah. And I got a job on the third or fourth try. In stage or on camera? No, no.

Nothing on camera for a long time. This was at a dinner theater in Springboro, Ohio, doing 1776. And how long did you have to do that? That was for, oh, years. But that only lasted until after Thanksgiving. Then my girlfriend went down and got a job at the same dinner theater. So I went down and waited tables. Followed her?

Yeah. But I made more money than anybody. Yeah. Cutting their lawns, doing odd jobs. And this was in Ohio? Yeah. Waiting tables. So you just went from New York to Ohio?

Yeah. Doing whatever was necessary. Yeah. And I was more comfortable there because it was suburbs. Right. Midwest-y a bit. People could drive around. Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing about growing up in a suburb or growing up in the Midwest is like the car thing.

Like New York, it's like no one's got a fucking car. No, you don't need one. Yeah. It's just people everywhere. Yeah. You can't get away. Good. I still take the train.

Me too. Yeah, I mean, it's nice to have been in New York so you know how to be in New York. Yeah. You can't get away. Good. I still take the train. Me too. Yeah. I mean, it's nice to have been in New York so you know how to be in New York. Yeah. I don't want to live there again. Yeah. I don't either. I mean, I dig it when I'm up there doing a play.

Yeah. But after a while, I guess I'm just too used to space. Sure. But do you have a place here still? Yeah. And you mostly- Yeah. We started looking after I got sober.

Yeah. Because I got sober in Malibu. Yeah. Oh, nice. And one of the sober mills. Yeah. The sober industry. Yeah.

Well, if it works, it works, right? Yeah. And found a place out on the west side here, and we got one. And I thought maybe it'd help me work more out here which i enjoyed yeah that never happened no no um because mostly mostly in new orleans yeah i moved down there because my wife is from bogalusa louisiana and i thought well i'm going to be on the road a lot so she could be near her parents right and that worked out yeah yeah worked out great so when when do you start like it's weird because i think the first time i remember you know i i know you did some stage

work but i mean the first time i remember seeing you on in movies was that david byrne movie yeah that's like the first i was doing a broadway show then and went to an audition for david and then i got it what you were was it the bear I'm that was the dancing bear the bear like you were this guy big nice warm guy yeah my brain jammed I yeah but it was great because it was David news it was only movie ever directed right and I just kind of hung with him on the set looking at stuff and I really really liked it it wasn't the first movie i ever did but you know maybe that was the first lead i'd ever gotten yeah i guess that's why i remember and david was sort of i just remember being in that zone of like that kind

of art music and yeah he was up to and the vision of it and his wife was involved i think with the costumes bonnie yeah and uh and i just like i remember it was like going to like an art show for me yeah to go see true stories i was like what is this about and it had all the burnisms in it yeah did you like working with that guy i loved him yeah yeah he uh he's just so whip smart uh an intense guy huh yeah but in a good way. Oh, yeah, I guess he had done a couple movies, Revenge of the Nerds and Chud. Chud. You remember Jay Thomas? I do.

The TV actor? Yeah, and Radio Man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was Jay and I for one scene. Underground dweller? What was it, cannibalistic? Cannibalistic humanoid underground dwellers. Yeah.

But a lot of my friends from the bar were in it. So I fit right in. Yeah. So you knew everybody. Yeah. It was cast out of New York? Yeah. So when did it start to really sort of take, like you, so most of the stuff you learned,

most of the stuff you did in New York was stage stuff? Yeah, mostly out of town or children's theater around New York. So you did that whole regional theater, what you were talking about before, dinner theater, just taking the gig. Did you see that as being, was that enough for you at the time? Because I started doing commercials in 78, then I hated myself for doing them which is really stupid um but i kept giving because i didn't care about getting them i kept getting booked why'd you hate yourself

oh i had some idealized for it's the sellout why am i an alcoholic yeah it's just there's always some idealized version right of what i should be. And all my friends at the bar were doing films or really good theater. Oh, right. So you're comparing? Yeah. Comparing despair? Yeah.

I'm driving myself down because I'm probably making more dough than they are. Right. But that's when I started getting in trouble is when I was making money. And you didn't feel good about what you were doing? Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

that well yeah of course i still i battle with you because i got like tomorrow i got to tape a special i'm taping a comedy special tomorrow and is there some part even though i'm like you know sober-minded and i've been good you know i feel great about a lot of things there's some part of me that wants to fuck it up how can i fuck this up and i'll do it yeah yeah i feel him i feel him it's like this he's looking for like the theater's not gonna be that good you know like what the fuck shut up you know i don't know if that second joke's gonna work i would have been doing it you know it's just the worst just keeping that guy shut up yeah Yeah. Fuck him. So, all right. But after the commercials, were you training at all? No, I went up there to go to a school.

And I went there and just, like, college was better. Yeah. And the people at college were better. And I got discouraged. And then I got that job, the dinner theater job, and I left. And I just chucked it. And I wish to fuck i had gone to a proper school really or stuff around yeah yeah um because i had it would have given me some

solid foundation more than i had from college yeah um now not so much anymore because you learn while you by you're doing it you do right you learn yeah but um i always wanted some more technique to fall back on but yeah i'm all right yeah and that's because i don't trust myself with what i'm doing right that i'm looking for that technique and i'm just now starting to learn that what i've been doing is okay yeah yeah you're you know you're fine just leave it alone don't nitpick every fucking thing. Right. And trust your instinct.

Yeah. When you're there. That's something I never do is trust myself. So every, you know, up to a certain point up until fairly recently, you're saying you do things and be like that. Fuck. Yeah. I'm just learning now to trust myself.

Wow. Yeah. So, uh, so you've, it's been a lifetime of beating the shit out of yourself. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So it's been a lifetime of beating the shit out of yourself. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, it's so weird because the more actors I talk to, the more I realize that you're going to figure it out

however you're going to figure it out. There's no magic way. And it makes it so much easier when you're not flogging yourself. Yeah. And it was just learned behavior um of all has done it yeah fat kid there's some yeah there's some progress well that's when alcoholism started yes fat kid yeah i was alone in the house and i'd eat play games with food yeah yeah yeah and that's that's when it started yeah but uh comforting just trust myself yeah i mean it's when it started. Comforting. Just trust myself.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, well, that's sort of what I'm talking about, too. I'm feeling that right now. Like, there's no reason I shouldn't, but, you know, it's one of those cognitive battles, right? Yeah. That you actually have to go like, you know, you know how to do that. Well, my whole lick about doing this today was I got nothing to talk about, man. I'm nothing.

I don't bring anything to the fucking party. Why do they want me? I didn't do anything. But I'm having a great time. Why do they want me? I didn't do anything. Yeah. Why am I being punished?

I got nothing to say. When we talked about the beginning, the thing you got to go do at Washington University, he's like, eh. He wanted someone from St. Louis, I guess. Yeah. But like when... So like right after True Stories,

the Big Easy with... I had talked to Dennis. Yeah. Did you play a cop in that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Dennis was the head cop. I got three movies in a row in 85.

Then I started doing films. Yeah. Big Easy, which took me back to New Orleans, which I would go to just to get lost. Oh, really? Every time I got a couple nickels together, I'd fly down there. You love it? I loved it, yeah. But what I loved was the French Quarter.

Yeah. And I was a habitué of certain bars, so they knew me. It was like coming home. Oh, yeah. But it was all based on booze and blow. Yeah. Oh, so you had that experience of pre-Katrina New Orleans back at the high point of just when it was.

So you got into the dark corners there. Yeah i dug it yeah and uh the music yeah go out get my ears dirty yeah and the food yeah but yeah it was mostly uh alcohol yeah i didn't uh i never i never really had a party there i ended up there once by myself but i never got the hang of the city but i do know when you go there there's no place like it by myself, but I never got the hang of the city. But I do know when you go there, there's no place like it. Yeah. There's an enchanting sort of element. I remember one night walking on Bourbon Street,

and I was drunk enough to start Accident Stranger for Blow. Oh, God, that's the worst. And some guy drove me out to a project. Yeah. But I copped, and I came back alive, and I told people that story. I said, you're still here.

Yeah, yeah. But that's the worst. story. I said, you're still here. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the worst. That's the worst where you like at a bar and you don't know the town. I did that once where some guy at the end of the bar, I think he had a cold. Like he was what it was. Yeah. He had a genuine cold.

I was sort of like, what's up? Where you got? Yeah. It's like people are waiting to give their blow away. Or that they have it. Yeah, yeah. It's ridiculous. Like, you know, that guy looks like he's

the kind of guy that would, that's so embarrassing. But Quaid is like, you know, as you're starting to, you know, do these movies with these actors, he'd been around a bit. Are you just learning from them too? I mean, do you get to-

Not necessarily from them, but just by the process itself of watching other that i admire too yeah and listening to directors stuff like that and then i got to work with uh al pacino a couple of years later on clf yeah oh yeah and that was you know he was my hero when I started seeing him. Sure. And he was just a great guy. Really? Yeah. Thank God.

Yeah. Isn't that nice when that works out? Yeah. But he loved acting. Yeah. And the process of it, everything to do with it. So we'll talk about that. Oh, you did?

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So there was practical advice there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just listen to his stories. But, yeah, he was so kind to me yeah well that's great i'm watching him work working with him that's great and i'm

you know pinching myself every time i'm doing right yeah well that's it's it's so nice when the people you revere turn out to be good people yeah there's nothing worse than the sort of like the hero worship and then like, these are fucking assholes. That's what I'm always afraid of. You're that guy? You don't meet your heroes. Well, no, I try not to,

but then I interview them and they're usually, the one thing I've learned from talking to so many people is that everyone's just a person. So like, you know, once you get them into the right perspective,

which is human, they're not assholes. Maybe it's your expectations. Yeah, definitely, whatever you're projecting. Sure. But when the relationship with the Coens start with Raising Arizona, that's right around that time. That's right. Yeah, that was the third film I did in 85, 86.

So that's their second movie, I think. Yeah. And now when you enter that world with those guys at that age, were you aware that like this is something amazing? I knew it was something special because it was all on the page. And their sense of humor was not unlike mine. I mean, they're a lot smarter than I am. Yeah. But just hanging around with them was wonderful.

Yeah. It was all his laughs. And the stories were like when you read the script of Raising Arizona, you were like, this is amazing. Yeah, I just fell in love with it. And then I went in and met with him. I didn't do much reading, but we hung out for about an hour, a lot longer than I should have.

And we were goofing on. I was goofing on resume pictures. And we just hung. Yeah, and that part was so great. You and what's his name? Bill Forsythe. Bill Forsythe. I haven And that part was so great. You and what's it? Bill Forsythe. Bill Forsythe. I haven't seen him in a while. But the whole thing was so amazing.

I watch it like once a year or so, their movies. It was so much fun. When you come out of the ground. I wanted to do more. Yeah. Just how can I make this better for these guys? And when you do those movies, because when I was thinking about the Cohen stuff that you've done, they're all, like, comedic, but none of them are,

you don't play them as funny, really. No, no. Yeah, but they're all insanely hilarious. Yeah, yeah, the straighter you are. The better, right? Yeah. And Nicolas Cage at that point was so wiry and so goddamn sharp that must have been fun yeah it was he was uh i found out later he based his

character on woody woodpecker i thought it was wiley coyote it might be well the woody woodpecker was a tattoo yeah that was the uh a car decal right right for motorheads yeah yeah yeah wood wood systems yeah yeah oh is systems. Yeah, yeah. Oh, is that what that was? Yeah, with a bent pecker. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I knew it was a cartoon character. That's fucking hilarious.

Now, you were in the movie Punchline, which was a ridiculous movie. Yeah, at the time it didn't feel ridiculous because, you know, I was hanging out at the Improv every night then. Yeah, like as a comic, you know, when I saw it, we were like, oh, yeah, the locker room, the old comic locker room. Yeah, I had a different perspective. No, but you were in the improv crew at that time? Yeah, I never went on.

We'd rarely go onto the floor to watch guys. I was just hanging out in the front bar because it was, yeah, Peter Riggert. I go, where can I hang out in L.A.? So the improv is most like New York bars. That's true. They kind of had a scene there. People would hang around there. Guys would show up there at that time.

It was a good time. That was the 80s. All the comics were around. Were you friends with comics? Yeah, I was. I used to see Sam Kinison all the time. At the Comedy Store? Yeah, Rick Dukeman.

Dukeman. So you used to come down to the store, too? The Comedy Store? No, I went there once, but that was it. I just went. Yeah? Just the improv? Yeah.

I knew Kinison. We did some time. I did plenty of blow with Sam Kinison. Yeah, me too. And then you had to listen to him and look at him. He's real into it. Like, look at me in the eye. Where you going, John? Hey, bathroom.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Those are good times. So you work, like, what do you do? Like two, three movies a year for the last, like, while? It's been quite a run. I had been. But lately I got the opportunity. Roseanne wanted to do this show again oh the connors yeah that came into uh that just fell in my lap yeah

it was nice not to be living out of a suitcase but why were you living out of a suitcase because no we're doing films oh yeah just oh you've been going. I got a place here. Yeah, yeah. And that's how it was the first time. I was still living in New York, but I was doing films all the time, so I was living out of a suitcase. And then you got the first one. Yeah, we hit it off. Roseanne and I hit it off real well at the audition.

Yeah, that was like 88, 87? 87, I think. 87. That was your life. Yeah. Well, she was something else she still is something else but at that time you know I did you know going into the original Roseanne that this was going to be such a game-changing show for the culture at the time I just didn't care

yeah I go okay you know we'll maybe do five of these and then they'll kick us off. But I made some nice coin. Yeah. And I didn't worry about that. Right. I didn't care. And then it just evolved into this massive thing for a decade almost. And you became that guy. Yeah.

I'm still that guy. I know. They don't know my name. That guy's back. Or the character. You're that guy. You're the guy from Roseanne. Yeah. That's it know my name. That guy's back. Or the character. You're that guy. You're the guy from Roseanne. Yeah, that's it.

But you know, it's weird because I watched Roseanne, but I wasn't a fanatic Roseanne watcher. So you stand out in my mind as the guy in the movies more than the guy in Roseanne, which is fine. Yeah.

I mean, Barton Fink is one of my favorite movies ever. And I'll show you A Life of the Mind. That's one I want to do over again. Really? Yeah. Just do it better. yeah i mean barton fink is one of my favorite movies ever and yeah i'll show you a life of the mind that's one i want to do over again really yeah just do it better do it better you were crazy yeah it was going down that hallway yeah come on man how are you gonna do that better that was fucking great yeah i did that back to back with a movie called king ralph with o'toole uh-huh oh which was just the best yeah working with that

guy the movie stunk but uh just being with peter otul and and you were still drinking fortunately yeah i was he wasn't oh damn yeah oh but he'd take me around to uh bars and where'd you shoot restaurants london first time and so you got to hang out a lot with him? Yeah. Yeah, we'd go out to dinner or places where he had scenes. Yeah. And we were sitting at the Savoy Hotel one night. Yeah. He was surrounded by pictures of Richard Burton and Harris and all his friends. Just a little wistful.

Yeah, that's that generation, huh? Yeah. Did you learn anything from that guy? Do the scenes as though you're late for a train. Really? Yeah. Urgency. Yeah.

Get present. Yeah, that made a lot of sense to me. Take out all the slack. When you think about all the movies you've done, obviously you like working with the Coens. They put you in a lot of movies. And The Big Lebowski has, like, this cult following. I mean, like, you know, people, there's a religion to it.

A frightening little cult. They are. But they seem okay, those people. Yeah. They're nerds. Yeah. They're not bad guys. They're fun.

Yeah. They appreciate it. But, like, in doing all this work, do you look back at any of the movies with more fondness than others oh yeah anything i did for joel and ethan yeah um the david burnfield yeah that was a big eye opener yeah working with al yeah yeah i worked with him three times now oh really yeah yeah there was a movie he did about jack hervorkian oh that was great it's an hbo movie yeah yeah but like it was one of those

things where you know for me when I was watching Pacino on that because like he he sort of gets a little you know he gets stuck in certain habits yeah and but in that movie it was like holy shit he just turned himself inside out there and became that guy I didn't see any any Pacino it was yeah it was great to watch. Great to hang in there with him. Now, what was the Flintstones experience? I got roped into it. Yeah? I was doing a movie that Spielberg produced.

Yeah. I did two of them. One was Arachnophobia. Oh, yeah. Then a movie called Always that steven directed yeah and while we're at our first table read for always he comes in and he sits down he goes ladies and gentlemen i have an announcement to make i've just found my fred flintstone and i'm looking you know yeah and i thought oh god no not this i knew i was gonna hear yabba dabba doo for the rest of my life

and i wasn't really i liked the fl Flintstones when I was in fifth grade. Sure. So you didn't feel like you had a choice? No. It was, yeah, about six months before we started filming, I called him. I got drunk and called him up and said, I don't think I can do this. Yeah. And I wound up doing it.

What did he say? Oh, it was loud. But I liked working with him. With Spielberg? In Arachnophobia, he'd get in the, I'd be driving a truck, and he'd put himself down in the passenger side, not on the seat, but squinched down because he thought it'd be funny if he wasn't in the shot. Who, Spielberg?

Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Was he directing that, or was he a producer on that? No, he was a producer on it. And he just Who, Spielberg? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Was he directing that or was he a producer on that? No, he was a producer on it. And he just liked fucking with you? Yeah. But it was great being around there.

I would go over to Amblin every night after I get off of Roseanne just to hang out. Oh, really? Yeah. That made me feel good. Because you're in it. You're part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

I felt like I had gotten somewhere. So it's interesting that you were doing the Roseanne show and still going back and doing movies. Yeah. And it sort of, that was an amazing time, I would imagine. Yeah, especially, like, it's King Ralph and Barton Fink. And like that with Hail Caesar. Do you know, I think that's a great double feature.

Yeah, I think so too. Like, they go together. It's almost like a sequel, right? Yeah, yeah. No one talks about Hail Caesar. I think that's a great double feature. Yeah, I think so too. They go together. It's almost like a sequel, right? Yeah. No one talks about Hail Caesar. I fucking love that movie. I do too. All your communists.

They were great. The communists were great. They were so hilarious. And when you did the Bring Out Your Dead, I love that movie too. You don't hear much about that. Yeah, I'm ashamed of myself for that one because I was drunk

for most of it oh i was really intimidated i didn't really know what i was gonna do um you were intimidated by working with scorsese yeah who i shouldn't have been he was the nicest guy in the world um i was just very unhappy then but yeah i'd wind up with a bottle and start drinking to make things better. During the day? Yeah. During filming, yeah. And we filmed mostly at night. And I didn't really have a character.

I said yes because I wanted to work with Martin Scorsese, and then I didn't do the work. That's a weird feeling. So when you're just showing up as yourself yeah yeah with a accent yeah that was my character it's like it's well how do you know when you like i guess when you know when you've locked into the character if you're not aware of it yeah right yeah yeah i think when things come naturally yeah you don't have to work that hard. Yeah. So you do some animated stuff too, and I read that when you and Billy Crystal did the, what is it,

the Cars? Monsters, Inc. Monsters, Inc. Because I'm involved with the animated thing now, but you guys did a lot of it together. Yeah, that was Billy's choice, and it was so much better when we got together. The energy just met and zoomed.

It was so much better when we worked together. Yeah. And I'd just hang on to Billy because he could improvise. Sure, right. And he sure did. Yeah, and you can feel the vibe. Yep. And it made the movie better.

Yeah, it sure did. But the energy, we made the movie better. Yeah, it sure did. But the energy, we do them separately. Yeah. And then Billy came up with this idea and then it really started working, really cooked. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's fun, right? Are you able to identify fun? Yeah, I have a, yeah.

I know it when I'm in it. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Because that has taken me a while to figure out. Oh, yeah. A long time. But if I'm having it, I, that has taken me a while to figure out. Oh, yeah. A long time. But if I'm having it, I don't want to stop. And my favorite thing is laughing.

And if I do that, then I'm in a good place. Yeah. And you've got to find people to make you laugh. Yeah. So what is it, like coming back to the Connors, how, it's pretty easy in the sense of like, do you find that that guy's right there? Yeah, he was. I was worried about it because I can be worried.

Yeah. Because I like being worried. Like, how am I going to find him again? It was, we walked onto the set, and it was, I hate using the word surreal. Yeah. It's just overused, but that's what it was. Like time travel.

Yeah, it was. The wallpaper was the exact same print the furniture was there i hadn't seen this stuff i walked away from it um and boom and rosanna and i just went back to having a ball yeah yeah it came right back and i guess we did eight shows something yeah yeah it came right back uh when we had grandchildren to worry about new characters yeah but yeah as long as i i was hanging with her i was always doing the right thing yeah it was right it was on the page too right the writing and everything well i hope she's okay i do too um in in terms of like doing these comedies with like what was

it like working with McBride? Cause I watched all the gemstones and I love them. And I had Edie in here and you know, Danny, like I've talked to him too, but he's a funny fuck. Yep. He's not a professional funny man in the sense that he's not always on.

Right. He just says funny things. And he's, there's something about his demeanor though. Like he's got this weird cockiness that is so undercut by his like ridiculousness it's a very unique he really zoned yeah he really minds himself yeah for being a prick yeah right he goes to depth but somehow he's sympathetic yeah because he's such a an idiot yeah and not dumb but just sort of like like he's gonna fuck it up

somehow it's a great trick it is a good trick i don't know how he does it but he's he's got some imagination uh these guys he went to school the north carolina school of the arts all hang together yep right together and they they bought a sears or renting a sears an old sears the shopping center yeah and the studio is in there everything is there. That's where you guys shot? Some of it and a lot on location. They bought a Sears? I don't know if they bought it, but they're renting it, and it's a movie studio.

Down in where? South Carolina? Yeah, in Charleston. No kidding? Yep. It's just swell. And he lives out on an island, I think, over there. Yeah, yeah.

And what's the other guy's name? Green? David Gordon Green. Yeah, yeah. He's kind of a genius, too, huh? And Toby.ody hill jody yeah jody hill yeah but when when you got that gig when you looked at that stuff were you familiar with this stuff from uh otherwise not really so just by reputation and i'd seen a couple of things uh but it was it was funny it was a great concept yeah and i go like and i just got lost my job rosanna just gotten canned right and but the next day i got the script i said sure yeah and

now you're doing both doing two yeah yeah and are you guys doing more of the gemstones yeah we start again in february that's great and you feel like you feel strong you feel good you like yeah yeah and i'll be staying in the same house in south carolina so that's down i don't have to worry about anything yeah i like it there yeah uh the people are wonderful um and that makes it and it's always fun on set it. It's so funny. How many people in your life say this to you? Like, come on. It's great. John, stop it. No, it's good. Too many.

Don't mind their own fucking business. Oh, my God. So what, all right. So what do you do with the rest of your day? How does that pan out for you? I've got to go back to the hotel. Get my stuff, take it back home, get some other stuff, and go back to the hotel. Because we got run out.

I'm in Pacific Palace. Oh, shit. With the fires? Yeah. Are they right there? That would have been a good excuse. To what? I can't make it, Mark.

Yeah. My house might burn down. I don't have anything to say. You could have. My house might burn down. Now, is this anything to say. My house might burn down. Now, is this scary to you? It's scary, right? No. We're safe.

I got stuff that I need. My dog. And we're safe. That's my fear. It's like, how the fuck am I going to get these cats out of this house? Dogs are good because they're like, come on, boy. And they come. Cats are like, come on. You're going to burn up. Yeah, louder.

Yeah. We dig it. We don't care. Try and get us in a box. Well, it was great talking to you. Yeah, thanks, Mark. I think we had a lot to say, and I'm glad you came. I am too.

This was fun. Good. And I like meeting you. I like meeting you too, man. John Goodman. I don't know what to expect from anybody on this show. That was really something. It's a deeper place.

A more thoughtful, self-aware, you know, a little heavy, a little darker. But I certainly identified with it and it was, it was certainly great to talk to him. The Connors airs Tuesdays on ABC and I was very happy to talk to John. Okay, now let's, let's play three chords, maybe four, three chords, maybe four. Thank you. Boomer lives! And Zorro.com offers amazing customer service from real people based in the U.S. Visit Z... Oh. Okay. Availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

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