WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1069 - Kate Nash

Episode Date: November 7, 2019

Kate Nash says getting cast on GLOW saved her life and, when you hear about the emotional roller coaster she was on before landing the gig, that might literally be true. Kate tells Marc what it was like to leverage her MySpace account into pop stardom at age 19, with a number one record and sold out shows for thousands of devoted fans. And then she explains why it all fell apart, with anxiety, OCD and a near-total breakdown to follow. They also talk about working together for the past four years, gaining confidence through wrestling, and the importance of a bunny in Kate’s life. This episode is sponsored by the Adult Swim Podcast, Zoro.com, Intercept Festival presented by Amazon Web Services, and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maronon this is my podcast welcome to it oh my god how you doing you okay how's everything at the place everything worked

out with that thing did that did you get that stuff in the mail that you're waiting for did that package come are you okay did the pills work is it all gone now how's that how's your eye that thing with your eye is that better the thing with your eye did that cold sore calm down a little bit did you did you lose the finger what's happening i don't know, you guys. Come on. I'm beat up all the time. I beat myself up all the time. It's not a mental thing. It's a physical thing at this point. I've been working out and then I go up the mountain and I do it two, three times a week, straight up this mountain. And then I run down. And every time I run down, I'm just playing with fire because I'm a breakable 56-year-old man. I think my bones are relatively strong.

But I got a buddy of mine only a couple years older than me, broke his hip. Classic. He did the classic hip breaking, but not just, you know, falling in the shower, getting up. He was fucking mountain biking, Mr. 58-year- 58 year old i gotta be honest with you man i know everybody's on this alpha kick every middle-aged man is shaving their head and doing the goatee and getting jacked up on the supplements you can't impose alpha you can't make your bones stronger than they are. You will be humbled. You will be humbled by your stupidity if you let your ego and vanity compel you.

And fear, yes. Don't break yourself trying to prove that you're what? Something you weren't even when you were 25. Am I being vague? Kate Nash is on the show today. Hi, Buster. Buster, come here. Buster, get on the mic.

Kate Nash is here today. And it's been a while that I've been working with Kate. And I've had people tell me I should have Kate on. But I didn't know what Kate did. And I did some research research i listened to her music i realized she's a big pop star in the uk and a bit here she's got a new album out right now she's also my co-star on glow but i just knew her she was the british lady but now i know i know this whole story and it's a great story and uh i finally talked to kate she's here also um i'm gonna be taking a vacation uh we're gonna keep putting

up shows but uh i'm gonna take a vacation and i want you people to know something i'm gonna go back to um ireland i'm telling you man i got a thing for ireland and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna lay it all out yeah i'm just taking a trip. I've pulled back a bit, as you know, over the past few years from sharing too much of my personal life with you. Because there's certain elements of it where I've gone through several relationships here on the mics. And each time I've talked to you less and less about them. Not because we're not friends, folks. It's got nothing to do with you.

It's just like there's part of me that I have to keep to myself. It's like Instagram. Same thing. It's like what the fuck are people doing on Instagram? Here's what I'm telling you. I've pulled away. You know, I've pulled back from Twitter. I've gotten rid of my Facebook page altogether.

I've kind of shut some of the light out of my personal life here on this podcast. And now Instagram. I've been more active on Instagram, but basically just letting people know what's up, checking in, that kind of stuff. The shows, the cats. I can be candid about the cats they're not going to get upset by not feeling that they can represent themselves on the mics here but Instagram is like this whole other thing like I do check Instagram I follow a few people I don't know who to follow I can't follow too many people because I don't get too many people in my feed but I've had this issue with Instagram and Twitter, to be quite honest with you, where, look, there is plenty of people I know in my life that I don't see every day or even

hardly at all, but I know them for years and I'm in the same community, comedians, people I work with in show business. And some, I follow them on Twitter and on Twitter, it just gets to the point with some people where it's like, how many posts are you going to do? When does this, when is this not just some weird cry for help? I mean, what do you, what, what do you, what is the impulse? If it's not just a sort of like, Hey, I'm doing this, what's up? Maybe do a couple of jokes, but some people seem to be having this one side conversation where they present themselves as however they want to present themselves, whether it's funny or just earnest or concerned or, or like on the pulse of what's happening or outraged or whatever it is. You know,

when somebody posts more than 10, 15 times a day, it's like, are you okay? Why I know you, but I didn't, I didn't know you to be so annoying and desperate somehow. And then Instagram takes it to this whole other fucking level where it's just, I've had to, And then Instagram takes it to this whole other fucking level where it's just I've had to I've had to unfollow people on Instagram because I like them as people. But if I follow their Instagram feed, I start to resent them and I get mad at them. And it's almost like they keep barging into my door. Like I'm just trying to have a life. And every four or five posts, a person who I used to like is going hey man remember me look what I'm doing now look at look I got a hat okay look at that hat I got on hey look who I'm standing

with look how many look at hey look at look at my children hey look at look at this is the thing I'm doing out uh out in the world and I want you to know that I'm doing it and I get to a point where I'm like all right you know uh I'm glad everything's going good and that you're excited to share it, but I can't do it anymore. And I'm sure people have had that experience with me, but why are you doing it? What is the need to do it? I'm trying to explore what is my need? I'm like, well, I got something I kind of want to say, like with Instagram, I just want to check in with people, tell them what I'm like, well, I got something I kind of want to say. Like with Instagram, I just want to check in with people, tell them what I'm doing, say hi, how's the day going? And this is the podcast that's coming up and occasionally my cats.

And that's fun, but that's it. Once every few days, really. Twitter, I don't post at all, hardly ever. And it's, you know what? It's a relief. I've gotten some of my life back, and it's mine. And I can have it. I don't need to share it.

Too many Instagram posts, that's all I'm saying. Take it down a notch. Did I tell you about that thing? I went and hosted that Silver Lake Conservatory of Music benefit the other night again third year in a row and I got to be honest with you not an easy gig not a fucking easy gig but I do it for the kids it's Flea from the Chili Peppers it's he started the place and it's a great thing it's a great thing given that so many of the public schools aren't teaching music anymore in these music is very important whether you turn out to be a musician or not learning an instrument,

building a relationship with an instrument, having that to express yourself or to comfort you or to entertain people. It's great. And as you know, as the heat rises and the apocalypse is upon us, we're going to need more traveling minstrels to visit the sort of ever shifting migrant camps around the country to where water is. And they're going to be nice. minstrels to visit the sort of ever-shifting migrant camps around the country to where water is. And it's going to be nice to have somebody constructing and writing and entertaining with a few sad songs of the trek to find water in the new world. Yeah. It's going to be essential. So you might want to think about getting your kid onto an instrument. So it'll have something to do when the grid breaks down and you have to go organic and just be on woodwinds or handmade instruments of different kinds, perhaps from garbage and whatnot. build a musical instrument out of junk and garbage to travel with in these wagon trains that are

going to be happening from broken down Teslas and horse-pulled carriages that were once motorized cars. How do I know all this stuff? It's coming to me right now. I'm just a vessel. I'm just a channel. That's all. I'm just saying maybe learn an instrument for the end of the world so people don't have to cry all the time and there can be sing-alongs. But anyway, so I'm hosting this thing and it's difficult because it's a big room of fairly rich people. And like last year, it was great because I was with Randy Newman and I got to eat dinner with him. The year before that, it was Katie Lang. And this year, the Chili Peppers always play, but they have a guest.

This year, it was Eddie Vedder. And I opened the show. I don't do much material. I just kind of keep things going, keep a through line. Then at some point, I do material, but it kept getting pushed up this year. Like, I was just going to do a few minutes. I knew it was going to be terrible in the sense

that I wasn't really going to be able to get the audience to focus or listen to me. And it kept getting pushed up to the point where it was like, all right, I was going to do it before the Chili Peppers performed. And then they're like, why don't you do it after in between the Chili Peppers and Eddie Vedder? And if I had gone up right after the Chili Peppers, I would have held the audience. But they're like, just wait until Vedder, they get him set up. And I'm like, holy shit. So like now it's coming down to it. They've set the stage for Eddie Vedder. I don't know Eddie Vedder. And they're like, okay, just go up and do your three to five. And it's like ridiculous. No one's paying attention. I rose above it and I wouldn't let it be embarrassing. And I knew I told them, I'm like, this is great. I'm glad I volunteered

for this. I'm glad I volunteered for this tanking. God damn it. So I'm just up there and I'm doing a few jokes. I'm getting nothing really. And I look over at the side of the stage and Eddie Vedder is dying laughing. And I'm like, don't do that, Vedder. Do not laugh at my failure. Do not laugh at my pain mr vetter but i fucked myself because that means that they knew that he was waiting to go on so i had to end my actor it kind of worked out and i brought vetter up took a couple shots at him before he got up there and then he was um he was very kind of like hey mark i wasn't uh laughing at your failure i was laughing at your courage man i was laughing with you it's very courageous i'm like oh god damn it

that just made it worse play your songs it was my mistake who the fuck thinks that going up in between two of the biggest rock acts of the last 30 years at a small venue event where people are eating dessert is a is a good idea who volunteers for for that? Me. I did it. I volunteered for it. Kate Nash is here, and it's quite a story. Her latest album, Yesterday Was Forever, is available wherever you get music. You can also watch her in all three seasons of Glow, streaming now on Netflix. And it was great to talk to her and get to know her. I've been working with her for three years. It's never too late, folks.

This is me and Kate Nash. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need,

and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you too, Mark. I mean, we go through periods where we see each other almost every day. Yeah.

It's not like we're hanging out. We're working. Yes, we're very serious. And it's taken me this long to have you on the show, even though people are like, why don't you have Kate on? She's a big star in music. And I'm like, is she, though? You're like, who is she? Yeah, who is she?

What does she do? Where does it happen? Yeah. But it turns out you are kind of a big star. It took me this long to do the research. You just didn't believe him. No, I believed it, but I'm an old man. And I didn't watch the documentary because I thought it would affect our conversation.

Okay. What is it called again? Underestimate the Girl. Now, that documentary, you set out to just it was supposed to be like just this sort of like we're going to follow this pop star around yeah and do a documentary about her journey in america so it was like yeah i got approached i didn't set out to make a documentary i wasn't like i think it's time for me to make a documentary i just got asked it wasn't it wasn't no it wasn't self-generated no it wasn't self-generated yeah um but i was like i just

moved to la and i was saying yes to anything that i was just saying yes to stuff this was like 2014 oh okay 14 yeah and um when did we start doing glow 16 okay yeah okay so someone approaches you i want to make a doc about you yeah because i Because I know who you are. Marc Maron doesn't, but I do. Yeah. And who was that? It was Amy Golstein and this woman Anishka. And we had a hairdresser in common. And she did my hair for Coachella.

And then I'd done this crazy vagina sculpture show at Coachella. You did a vagina sculpture show? Yeah. Well, I made these vagina sculptures. And it was like... Like giant vaginas? Yes. But they were clearly vaginas. There was no... I don't know if clearly is the word I would use, but vagina interpretations. Interesting. But there was no denying they were vaginas. Yes. Okay, got it. There was a guy named Jonathan Ames.

He's a writer. He did this, got it. Yeah. There was a guy named Jonathan Ames. Yeah. He's a writer. He did this, I think he did a character called Mangina that was a man in a vagina suit. I like that. Yeah. Well, it's sort of a reaction to toxic masculinity. Right, right, right. An inversion of it. All right, so.

Nice. Same hairdresser, vagina sculptures. Yes. For Coachella. Yes. So they just heard about it and they were looking to work on a new project so like this this artist seems interesting yes and they wanted to film with me and we just started filming and they didn't really know at first it was like oh this

may be a tv show this maybe we'll just see and i'm like okay i'll just do whatever because i don't know what i'm doing here. And you're new to town. New to LA. You want to crack America. Yeah, exactly. Whatever that means. Yeah, you're going to make it in the USA. You're going to make it in the biz. Yeah.

And we start filming. And they also said stuff, you know, they were like, well, you know, documentaries sometimes you have to kind of like create scenarios and... Yeah, we're going to get you in trouble. Yeah. have to kind of like create scenarios. We're going to get you in trouble. Yeah. So you emote properly.

Yes. And I said, I don't think that's necessary because I just, like drama is around. Yeah. I'm sure that something weird is going to happen. But shit was not hitting the fan yet. Not yet. I mean, shit is always hitting the fan in some way. But at this point, though, they were just sort of interested because you were kind of like on the rise, right?

Right, I did. I had been dropped by my record label already. Already. And I had like continued through that and kind of kept afloat. But did they know that when they asked you? Yeah. They did. I was kind of like making it on my own, you know,

like I'd survived being dropped by a record label. Right. And it was kind of like making it on my own. You know, like I'd survived being dropped by a record label. Right. And it was kind of like, what do I do now? Well, okay. And that's when the doc sort of takes a turn. Like, you know, it was supposed to, like from what I understand, it got a little more kind of personal and a little more raw than was anticipated. It was supposed to be sort of an ascent was the hope.

That's always the hope. Right. She's going to land on her feet. She's on her own. Well, I feel like documentary makers, maybe they kind of are secretly hoping for a little bit of a descent as well. Sure. Well, either that or they want people to watch it and go like, well, I don't know who's at

fault here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's the bad guy? Am I the bad guy? know who's at fault here yeah yeah who's the bad guy am i the bad guy so okay so let's go back because i i've been listening to music today okay i got into it seems like the new record or 2018 the last record yeah you're like rocking harder yeah is that true yeah i think like 2013 was like my angry record. That was, so the first record, right. The first record's 2007.

Yeah, Made of Bricks. Well, that was, okay. So let's go back to that because I don't even know what kind of music it is really. Yeah. I mean, I know it's sort of like my second wife listened to Lily Allen. I know there's a British poppy thing that's sort of dancey, kind of fun yeah and it's that area right yeah i mean it's like i feel like there was a scene in london happening at a time where it was like british artists being british uh-huh because there was so much before that that was like even british artists singing in american

accents because everyone you know like that was kind of a thing. It felt like a lot of the British pop, you know, power pop from the 80s to me. There was some of that in there and maybe in the later record there's a little Roxy music in there. I don't have that, you know,

like I could hear British music and squeeze. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that all in there? Yeah, I mean, I just played the piano and so that's what I had

as my outlet. Maybe it's just because you're British. I just associate it with every British thing that I'veish thing that i've ever heard yeah yeah yeah um i mean i grew up listening to like the beatles and my parents listened and nelson i loved nelson so much harry's pretty great janice i love harry and janice joplin and i i had like a lot of good music around me as a kid you're screaming on this record too a a little more. Oh, I thought you meant right now. No, but on this record.

It seems to be yours. Yeah, screaming kind of came into my life in 2010. Oh. Well, not in my personal life. But in the record? Yeah, I just kind of had a lot of anger after my first record because of all the sexism I experienced in the industry. But the record was huge,

and I imagine it was huge with a lot of girls yes it was yeah uh it feels like uh that the the first record was a number one record in in the uk right in europe yeah and i'm in just by the nature of the music i'm like well this isn't necessarily speaking to me it's enjoyable yeah but i can see how girls would be like yes yeah this is This is my heart. It was like identity. Well, it got called, one of the things that I love about that record is that it got called like, in a way, at the time it was being reviewed in a sort of derogatory way too of like, it's

like a teenage girl's diary. Oh. And I was like, that is the best thing you could ever be. Well, that's such a weird, dumb British commentary. Like, you know, why is she being so honest in telling us this stuff? Why is she a teenage girl? Yeah. No one cares about them except everyone in the world is trying to market everything towards them.

Right. We don't want to know how they feel. We just want to use them. Yes. Yeah. Just run money through them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But how did the first album come about and when did you start doing this where'd you grow up let's ask a lot of

questions okay i have no sense of england and when i have british people on i always feel stupid because i i can't i can't do what i usually do which is like oh you're from new jersey i know new jersey yeah you're gonna tell me things i'm gonna be like i'm gonna have to ask you dumb questions so where'd you grow up there? Harrow. North Harrow. Harrow? Yeah.

Is that in London? Yes, it is in Northwest London. It's near Wembley, kind of. Near Wembley Stadium? Yep. And what kind of neighborhood is it? It feels suburb-y. There's all these zones, like outer zones of like, you know, zone one to six.

And it feels kind of suburb-y there. Which zone were you in? Five zone five this sounds like a weird dystopic future movie i didn't know that i lived in zone five yeah well lucky you weren't in zone six right i was in seven no that's way i don't want to be there i went to a school when i was 16 called the brit school what did well your parents like what they do they do? My mom's a nurse. Like a nurse nurse? Yeah. At a hospital? Yeah.

Huh. What other kind of nurse is there? Well, there's nurses that work in doctor's offices. There's specific types of nurses. My mom has worked in like so many different areas of nursing and she's very strong and good nurse. And she was working, she's worked in like a cancer unit like when she had cancer and stuff like that she's like very strong and then she worked in a hospice for many years

for people on their way out yeah oh my god i know so she understands it yes she gets the transition she under yeah she understands life death is like a big thing in my life i feel like because of that i just feel like because she'd go to work and she'd come home and be like well so many people died mr johnson yeah yeah yeah it took shorter time than we thought yeah and that was just her job and you just yeah every day would hear these different stories and you kind of get to know these people because she'd be talking about her work and then and then you like go through all these stories i mean i i mean i remember stories of like this couple getting married in the hospice and like they knew that that she was going to die and then she died i mean just all these emotional

stories i don't know why i'm being like oh god like it's a horror show like to me i think it would behoove all of us to have some sort of acceptance or deeper understanding of that process. Yeah. Right? Because it's inevitable. It's one of the few things. It's the only. It's like.

Inevitable. It's the main thing that we try to deny. Right. That's like definitely happening. Definitely happening. For sure. And we're all so scared of it because, you know, who knows? We don't want to be in pain.

I'm not scared of dying myself are you really not i mean i'm scared if it's like violent and horrible yeah but i'm i'm more scared of like everyone i know dying and that just being really sad they're gonna they're gonna die everyone i know is gonna die it's so it's so sad but it's also it just like, that's fucking the world, this planet. It's like everything. It's the way it is. I think if we like definitely kind of accepted that more, then there'd be healthier people. So did you find that early on when your mom was doing this, did she tell you?

I mean, was there any, like, I would assume that it's sort of dark, but if she was acting like it's just the way it is. She's very practical and it's like no bullshit. And she actually, she really hates passed away or we've lost them. What did she say, died? Died. She's like, somebody has died. And you can't, as a nurse,

use language that's like trying to dress it up in any other way. Like they didn't pass away anywhere. They died. They died. It's like doctors like there's it's cancer it's not good yeah and uh the prognosis is what it is you can try but but i mean there's just i don't know i remember like my granny dying and i remember

the way my mom talked about that and yeah like i was we were all there that she's irish as well my mom so there's like such a different oh they're pretty matter of fact an irish funeral in comparison to an english funeral which i've had what is the irish what is the difference it's so much more alive at an irish funeral really english funeral is like awkward silence depressing yeah sad yeah and like stiff yeah and just you feel very depressed let's get it done with you're like this is such a fucking sad way to go out yeah that's why i feel an english funeral no matter what it is this yeah yeah whereas an irish funeral it's like fucking let's do this you know like you sit and you cry and you're like vocal and people have

things to say and they and you laugh someone left left my granny's funeral like cackling with laughter to my mom and said, I've had the best time. And then they were like, oh, God, I'm so sorry. She was like, no, that's exactly what she would have wanted. A celebration of someone's life. I just remember like crying and laughing and crying and laughing and like talking and being loud and eating and like yeah just doing that for like a week i think out of any culture you know i think the irish sort of know that the shit's gonna get bad like not only we're gonna die but it's probably gonna happen sooner than you want it to and yeah what are you gonna do about it Yeah. I don't know. I love the Irish personally. Me too.

And your dad's English? Yeah. Yeah. What's he do? He's a systems analyst, which is, I don't really understand my dad's job very much. No one does. He just works like- 80% of the people that I talk to don't understand their father's job.

He just looks at a screen and it's like coding. And he's like- Does he love it? I don't think he loves it. He's just really good at what he does and he works really hard for his family oh that's nice he's a very hard-working guy he doesn't love it yeah how many how many how big's a family i have two sisters older one older one younger oh really yeah i'm the difficult middle child is it is that standard we're all pretty difficult is that true i that true? Yeah, I think so. Why do you think?

I don't know if I've heard that. I don't have any kids. I think. And I'm not a middle child. But I like the idea. Of being in the middle. Of the middle child being difficult. I think every child thinks they have it the worst. But I feel like the middle child is like, well, the older one got to do everything.

Right. And didn't have strict rules because you didn't know. And then the younger one gets away with it because you can't be bothered by the time you get to the younger one so the middle one gets the like we've done this before so we know how to be strict and then by the time they get to the last one they're like oh i can't be right right right so they just get away with everything oh i get it so it is it weird having a mom as a nurse because like when you guys get sick she's like all right i feel like it's it's equipped me when i go into a hospital now and i have to be there either for someone else or myself i know the questions to ask i know how to be demanding really i know that you have to do that there's certain things you have to look out for

yourself because did you go to the hospital a lot when you were a kid i had a heart condition when i was 16 oh i think i saw that in the research somewhere yeah in the research file a heart condition yeah i had heart surgery i had like a tachycardia thing. Tachycardia, so it went... It went... Oh, no shit? It got stuck on a loop, yes. Really?

Burn off the loop. Really? Yeah. Like that fast? Like cocaine fast? Yeah, it felt horrible. Yeah, it's like here. In your throat?

Yeah. And it got like... I have asthma as well. Asthma too, huh? Poor me. So one of the side effects for taking the drugs for asthma can be like a spout, like palpitations. So when I would complain of having a fast heartbeat, my mom didn't really was she was like oh it's just like a medicine yeah but then one night she like felt it and was like we need to go to the emergency room right now it's a lot faster than i thought yeah yeah so how old were you when that happened um 17 but was that like the surgery was 17 but

was it like any fear that you would die yes Yes. Ah. Yes, there was. And I just didn't really know what to do with that at 17. What? Because of the surgery you could die? It was like, here's, the doctor was like, here's the statistics that like when you have the surgery, it could go wrong or you could have a stroke or you might end up with like a pacemaker. And here's what's going to happen if you don't have it.

And then like, these are the percentages and you should make the decision. And I was like, I'm 17. I don't know what, how to make to make any decisions your mom step in there well it ended up actually getting so bad that i had to have the surgery so i that was kind of a relief because i was like at least you had open heart surgery actually i had this crazy surgery where they kept me awake and they put three tubes in the top of like one thigh and two tubes in the top of the other and they pushed them through me whilst i was awake and i drugged me and stuff oh they pushed the tools like these tubes yeah okay in your in in in your veins it's a very strange feeling your artery right yeah going

through the stomach and then they like stuck this laser through and they lasered off. So you can feel it like burning in your chest. Come on. Yeah. Pretty cool, right? Oh, did you write a song about it? I didn't actually. I know.

I never pieced it together into my creative. I didn't think about how this affected me until recently. Really? I brushed that thing off quite quickly. Oh, because you got through it. Yeah, I guess like if you survived something, if it didn't cause you, well, I don't know, maybe it's a PTSD thing.

Yeah. Right? I think I just didn't acknowledge any of those like mental health things till like late in my 20s. And then. What other ones? Like OCD and anxiety and all of that like I just was like you have real OCD yeah well how does it manifest itself it's like tied

into the anxiety and it will just be like controlling me with things I have to do and um I do that yeah but you don't have a paralyzing kind of like, you got to touch the doorknob five times. Yeah, I have that. Oh, you do? But I controlled it in a very strange way with becoming vegetarian. Okay, because that's a control thing? I have no idea.

This is all like stuff I've realized later, but I, so I got this bunny rabbit when I was like 23. How old are you now? Is that right? How old am I? 32. 32, okay. I was like 23 or something.

I don't know if that's rude to ask, but you seem, you can handle it. I'm fine with the truth, Mark. We're all going to die. Yeah, I know. I might accept my death. Good, we accept it. Oh, I don't want to go yet though. A couple more years. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead go yet though a couple more years yeah yeah at least

a couple 30 23 bunny right so i get a bunny and i like just underestimated uh how much a bunny like any pet is it's like being and i just kind of fell in love with her and i was like oh my god i thought this was gonna be like a bunny and she's like my child and i'm obsessed with her and then she had to have this surgery because like you know i got her neutered spayed away yeah and the doctor's like it's really risky because she's a small bunny so like to put her under is risky and i was like yeah and i started like having these meltdowns about that and about the bunny going under yeah and so then all my ocd things were like you have to do them because if you don't she won't make it through the surgery does not sound like your mother's fortitude rubbed off it didn't i have zero logic zero logic there

was no acceptance around the buddy his bunny no no she couldn't go yeah so everything was controlled by that and it got pretty crazy and i was like kind of it was like the main thing in my life and then and just all the rules of like stuff i to do. I'd be like, leave the house. And I'd be like, I have to go back because I didn't do this. And I didn't fold that. And I have to do it in that same way. I have to do them. Now, where were you in your career when that was happening?

I was in an interim period in between my first and second record. I think I was writing my second record. So what happened with the bunny? So I had an argument the night before the surgery with a friend who was vegetarian. Who was like, you need to be who is vegetarian who was like you need to be vegetarian yeah and i was like no i don't i like animals but i can still eat meat and then the next day i woke up and i was like if i don't eat any animals then she's going to be fine and it was like a deal that's magical thinking

the way you said that it's an ongoing conversation with me i like to call it like it was like so it was like disgusted but so profound well it's like an it's a theme with me right now is it yeah but but i think that anxiety and ocd that you know mystical thinking i've had that before myself and i try to call it out but but that's what that was but But it helped. So what I did then was like. Right. It's like because you don't have a religion in place. No. Right.

So there you go. You're inventing one as you go along. Yeah. Yeah. So I did this deal. And then any time that. And still. And I'm vegan now.

And I actually like. I'm very happy with my life choice. You know at first I was like craving meat. And I didn't want to. I wanted to eat meat. But you wanted wanted that bunny to live i wanted her to live so i had to not eat it did it live yes is it still alive yes she is can you believe it magical thinking huh great why don't you apply it to a bigger thing if you've got this power fix everything i will thank you That's the next record.

Just call it magical thinking and solve the world's problems. Okay, I'll try. So, well, that's interesting. But so, because I imagine with the stress of the first record and the expectations, so how does,

so let's go back to that. Like, how does this record happen? I mean, were you always doing music? Yeah, I played piano as a kid and I always sang and I knew I wanted to. You played guitar too, though, right? I started playing guitar when I was about 17. But yeah, I just like wanted to, I always wanted to do that. So I, but I'd also, I was also like sideline studying theater and I wanted to go to drama school.

And then I got rejected from all universities and drama school. Yeah and so that's when I and I was working like fuck them right you're on television you're on tv man I'm a wrestler now yeah fuck them um and I was working in a fast food restaurant and I just like decided that I needed to do something because I was so bored and I was so fast food restaurant yeah I'm on I don't want people to sound like it's not you know job's a job yeah yeah that sounds a little it always sounds a little brutal yeah yeah the repetition of it yeah I mean I found working in like a shop worse actually because no one's coming in because it's just so like I don't know there's something about the way that you're like you're treated in a shop like that like oh yeah because like you know people have to come in there and make choices with fast food I don't know. There's something about the way that you're treated in a shop like that.

Oh, yeah, because people have to come in there and make choices. With fast food, it's like, yeah, you know what we got. It's right up there. How many do you want of them? Yeah, yeah. It's not like, will this fade? I don't know. Do you want the shirt?

I think I got brought in for a meeting about a clothes hanger once. And I was like, this is really the lowest point for me. terrible retail yeah retail's really rough um so i just i was like afraid of doing a gig but i became so bored that fear was interesting at least so i could like go well at least i'm gonna feel scared and that would be fun oh so you're like we were so bored and you wanted to do music yeah but, but I was too scared. Too scared. But then it was one of those things where it's sort of like, but that could never end. Yeah. Yeah.

So what did you do? So I printed off like, printed off. I burnt a CD with like my demos I've been making on my laptop. And I took it to the local like bar, indie like club. Yeah. And I said, I want to play a gig. And I started a music MySpace account. Oh, and I'd broken my foot at this point.

So it was like I had all this time to work on the music. How'd you break your foot? Fell down the stairs. In your house? Yeah. Okay. And so then I was like a soon... It was kind of a thing where it was like,

I like making deals with someone with myself as soon as Is it another rabbit deal? No it was like as soon as I'm as soon as my foot is healed I'm gonna do my first gig

like that's what's gonna happen Oh yeah So then I did that and and then I just played that first show and I was like this is the best thing ever

So you started the MySpace account because I remember MySpace and I was on there but I never really got the hang of it it seemed like a lot of a lot of maintenance it wasn't as good for comedians as it was i imagine yeah for musicians it was amazing for music is it still out there no it's completely they've lost everything actually but i think that it is the like the freest thing that we've ever had for like a music like careers as a musician was it was like it was just it was as honest as the internet could be because you could

just put it up there was no sponsors there was no one in control literally kids were just listening to stuff and there wasn't other platforms yeah and there was i was really i got emailed by lawyers record labels managers all came through DMs on MySpace. Because they liked your music, because it was picking up. Because I was getting loads of plays, and I was playing shows in London, and it was a hyped period of time for me. So the first phase one was you made the CD.

Phase two was you put it up on MySpace. And then how many songs did you put up there? You could put four. At first, you could only put four. And so you put four up, and it started to happen happen yeah yeah and then you could actually because it was starting to happen you could say like well i'm playing at this place so they would go see you people would start coming yeah and i had like i had really good friends as well that were coming like i think one of the key things in music scenes yeah is friends jumping on top of their bands because if you go to

a show and it's so hot like the first few shows are so exciting because there's a bunch of people really keen supporting this person yeah then other people get involved because of that i think all bands that i like can think of they're like that i know of at sort of in this period of time it's like all their friends were going it became like a really fun night out that everyone just wanted to be at you know that's how scenes start yeah so you were part of the scene yeah like the sort of 2007 there was a lot of like uk artists doing like a very british storytelling style of music and like playing gigs are there other ones that people would know like jamie t yeah um like lily allen

adele like you know florence like all these do you know adele i went to school with adele you did yeah where she was in the year below me at brit school really did you know her yeah yeah i knew adele i mean everyone kind of knew adele because she was always like an amazing singer and like singing around the school and stuff so you know i don't know a lot of her music but i i know that i like her that's all you need to know then i don't know why i mean i'm not alone, obviously, but I've heard her sing a few times,

but it's sort of one of these things like, do I want to investigate that more? I don't know. Okay. I'm like, there was a moment there. I'm like, I have to get all of Adele's records.

But I did it. For the room downstairs. Yeah, exactly. All right. So that's all going on. And you're kind of part of that. You're in it or on the fringes of it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah we were all like we were all like at the same show yeah i mean there's more people i have you know lily allen the kooks as well yeah you knew yeah i didn't know her like

really well but it was like we knew each other yeah yeah like everyone kind of knew each other because you're just like young people playing the same venues and like you know lily allen like had me in her top eight and stuff at the beginning and stuff like that and um so you're all supporting each other yeah it was it was communal feeling it was like a community which is really nice and so the like the first you released foundations as a single i released a seven inch um that had a song caroline's a victim and birds and it was like vinyl that was the first one yeah and then and then I released, and my first gig was 2006. It was like April 13th, 2006. And then Foundations came out

in like, I don't know what month, but June-ish, 2007. So you didn't have a record. You had to put together a record, right? The first two songs were, two of the four songs you put on MySpace? Yeah. And then I had like,

probably like eight songs. I mean, you had to have eight songs to play a set list. So it was like, I had about eight songs. And then I had like probably like eight songs. I mean, you had to have eight songs to play a set list. So it was like I had about eight songs. And then I recorded the record. And then it came out in like, I think it was like the summer of 2007. And then that blew up. So it was like a quick, crazy turnaround for me.

And it was very strange. I listened to the stories, foundations. That seemed like a difficult relationship were you writing from your life or were you no okay i wasn't in a relationship i mean i was in relationships but not really oh but like i was always like i feel like i was just storytelling you know sure i didn't have like some experience yeah Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think it's like if you're so, you know, like, I was studying theater and just interested in, like, life. No, yeah.

No, I get it. Yeah, I mean, like, it took me a long time to realize that when people write songs, it's not all about them. Yeah. Not always. Yeah, I mean, it kind of devastated me. I want it. When I hear a

song like i listen to jason isbell or nicolo or somebody and i'm like that's not you and they're like no we can make up people what but sometimes it's you and sometimes it's not and sometimes there's like little things that are you of course yeah because you're writing it yeah so the first record was called what made of bricks yeah and it Made of Bricks, yeah. And it was huge. Yeah. Number one. So that's great. So now you've got an agent, you've got a label, you've got a manager, got a lot of people taking your money. People know you on the street.

Yeah. You're like a star. Right. Doing big gigs. Yeah, 10,000 capacity. Come on, just to see you? Yeah. 10,000 people are like, we're going to see Kate.

Yeah, I sold out Hammersmith Polo, yeah. What? Yeah. 10,000 people are like, we're going to see Kate. Yeah, I sold out Hammersmith Apollo, yeah. What? Yeah. That's great. I mean, it was like very overwhelming. I think I- How old were you? 19.

Wow. Something, I don't know, around that age. And I think it was a little much for me then. I think so. Did you have a combo together or was it just you on piano? Did you put a band together? I had a band. Yeah.

I had a band. Drummer? Yeah. Drummer, bass, like keys, like guitar. So real band. Yeah. Yeah. And we had a lot of fun traveling the world together.

Don't get me wrong, but it did get a little much. In what way? Like, I just remember like, I mean, I just got worked like a donkey. By the label. Yeah. And the manager. And I was not in hands that were like, I don't think anybody asked me, how are you? Are you okay?

Like, there's things I should have been like, there was no time off. I would go on like a six week tour on a bus in America. And you're veganing? You're vegan yet? No, I wasn't vegan yet. Oh, yeah. So you're eating shitty? Eating shit food america drugs not really like drinking a lot though yeah and then so you toured the states because it was was the record big here it wasn't

big i mean america's so big it's hard like it's it wasn't like big big but i was like selling out shows and paying to like 3 000 people that's great um this is 2007 2007 into 2008 and i just kind of like got exhausted it was just like pure exhaustion and like felt insane and and yeah burnt burnt out i remember my last show of the whole two years yeah i don't think i could even sing. I remember just being like, like thinking, how do I get through this? And just wanting to like die afterwards.

And that's when you went home and bought the rabbit? Yeah, yeah. So were you having a, like when did it, how did it stop? I just got, I mean, two years is kind of as much as you can really tour something, really.

Okay, so it had a natural life. It came to, you do like two summer sort of festivals and you've toured everywhere twice. You can't really like go and do another tour, you know. Once a year, yeah. You have to have a new album. Right, got to go make a new record. Yeah, 18 months. So they knew that.

Yes, so they're like, go make a record. I'm like, I don't even know if I want to make music ever again. I hate everything. Oh, right. I don't even know. Who's pressuring you? The label? No, there wasn't so much. I mean, looking back, I'm kind of like, it's just weird to think how young I was around

all these older men and none of them were like, how are you doing? Or do you need some like mentor? Or like, how can we help you? It was more like, I think I just was like, i need to take time to just decide what i want to do and i need to find that feel like this is mine again because i felt a bit like i don't know if you've had this but when i the first experience of doing it just doing the same interviews and i mean what did i have more to say i've had one record played the same songs every night yeah i was young i didn't have like so much more that i could give sounds like hell

after a little while yeah and then you start to feel like do i was like do i even like music i think i'm lying i don't even like it yeah i have i have that conversation about everything every day yeah like yeah what am i doing yeah like this but then here we are doing it yeah i have those conversations all the time yeah but then like what's the alternative just sitting around going like this is much better doing nothing the worst is like i think worse than that is when you're really struggling i've had the worst feeling i feel like i had was when i was like the world is almost like screaming at me to stop doing this yeah nothing's going right music yeah nothing's happening yeah no one's really supporting you but you're gonna keep doing it anyway aren't you well you get too far in you're

not gonna give up because it's like but give up what it's just like what are you gonna do go back to the fast food place but i mean there's other options isn't there it's not i guess but not in my mind not in my mind either but that's the. It's like you're not a normal person. Right. And you have a dream and you have a passion and you have art and you care about something. Or you've just been doing it a long time. Right. You don't want to admit that you do, but you do.

Well, no. It's like I chose something and it took years to... But it sort of fit in with my particular mindset and my life. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So my whole life adapted to it yeah you know even before i had any success it was sort of you know it's it's an unusual life definitely but i don't know how to operate it real regular life no neither do i and i've tried and i just this doesn't happen is that i don't know how to do it yeah i actually don't know how to do it I actually don't know how to fucking do it and I've tried

Desperation needing to pay rent being in extreme debt thinking get me out of this just even for a little bit how does a normal person I look at friends and I'm like how do they do that how do I get into that

how do you do it and I just don't know I didn't find out, but luckily it worked out. Luckily, luckily it worked out. Yeah. There's some bad times, but I mean,

I imagine having those times, you know, after you've had tremendous success, yeah. Can't, that's gotta be the worst. Like for me, it was like a real slow build.

Like, you know, I didn't, I had, I had, I had some like i was i've always been able to manage some sort of income in the world that i'm in yeah uh but like it never fell out entirely where i made a bunch of money but i've always thought it could yeah

so i never i never spent i know it okay not even because of you like you know what i mean it just goes away see i think about all that time some people are going to steal my money yeah they can like that happens to so many people what happened to you so you do the first record you're losing your mind

you buy a rabbit you get magical you turn into a vegan do you write do you write what happened how do you make another record

so I carry on like that or the second record for a while what do you mean you were able to write the second record yeah I did. I booked like a shitty rehearsal room that I loved and I just like wrote songs and I

like was like, I'm just going to find the fun in this again. But it kind of carried on, you know, same kind of vibe. And then by the end of that, I... The record was similar? No, the record wasn't similar, but I just feel like it was kind of like the pattern. Yeah. You know, it was like write and then tour for 18 months. Lose your mind. Lose your mind. Do it again. I'm like, this is my life. This is what happens. This is, it was like, write and then tour for 18 months or whatever.

Lose your mind. Lose your mind, do it again. I'm like, this is my life. This is what happens. This is how it's always going to be. And the money's coming in. The money's coming in. Yeah.

Which I have no concept of either because I'm fucking like 20. I mean, what? I don't even know. I don't think about it. I used to have more of a concept when I did it myself, but at some point you can't manage shit. You can't.

And you hire somebody. And then you really have no concept. I hope those guys are good guys. Fingers crossed. I got to check and see how my money is. Yeah. I'm going to call the money guy. I'll ask those guys.

And then they could also just tell me what they want, I guess. It seems like we should have a handle on it. But okay, so how's the second album do? So it doesn't do as well, but it's still successful. I'm still touring. And then I go through this crazy breakup, relationship breakup, and I'm like... What'd that guy do? I had a very specific taste in not being in healthy relationships with people that liked me really

let's explain that like i think like so you just end up with people that liked you as opposed to you liking them i ended up with a lot of people that liked drugs a lot more than they liked me and like didn't i did that happen i don't know i think i just like it happens i think if when you're young you get into a relationship like that. Are you a codependent person? An enabler? I think, I don't know. I don't actually know. I think I just like,

I met the first relationship I got in was like that. And then it like feels normal. And then you're just like, this is what a relationship is. Me telling a guy to stop doing drugs. Yeah. That's how they work. And then suddenly i was like promises he will and then he doesn't and then you just like break down your self-esteem like yeah tears like dirt and then you rise like a phoenix yeah great without ever really being intimate. It's a lot of drama.

It's completely a waste of time. And you win at the end because you get out. Right. If you get out, you win. Yeah. Great. So that was fun. Additional stress.

But it was really freeing to like, you know, break up. And I sought out this producer, Tom Biller, who I love so much. He's a producer. He worked on like Liars records and like a Warpaint record. And just he always did like different stuff. I like Warpaint. Yeah. Yeah.

He had done like so many different types of things and it all sounded really good. And I just like asked to meet up with him and came to LA and like met with him. And I was like, I want to make a record with you. And then we just did. And that was the third record. it was different right had a different sound different vibe different feel it was like grown up or what it was like a bit more raucous it was like you know more punky like who was in the band are you staying with the same musicians like some of my musicians had left for stuff they had going on in their lives and then i like fired everyone and i hired an all-girl band did you fire everyone like crazy firing like were you crazy like i fired a lot of

people yeah like a lot of people um and got a girl band together yeah it was it was it was like just time to go um and uh got this amazing girl band who's still like two of the girls are still with me now they're just amazing linda burrato emma hughes is this when you moved here no this was 2011 but this was my relationship with la kind of beginning because i made the record here i made it in silver lake in this mansion like that was a convent that's where we were recording in the convent mansion yeah it wasn't like because i know rick rubin has a house that he records. And I think it used to be Charlie Chaplin's house or somebody's house. Or something more dark. This is one of those famous ones as well.

The convent? It's up on Michael Terreno. And it's just amazing. Oh, yeah. That's nice. Famous studio now, you mean? There's like a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of recordings have been done there.

Oh, okay. And we made this record. And it was just like this amazing kind of wild ride. And then my label were coming out and saying, you know, yeah, we love it. And I like made all these videos. Come home and I'm ready to like do the whole thing again. And everyone's being kind of weird. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on.

Like, why aren't we kind of getting started? And I've like gone through a couple managers at this point. and i have this other manager now who's like being weird and so everyone's kind of like oh yeah yeah yeah we're gonna yeah oh no that's something's happening the slightly high pitch yeah yeah don't freak out the worst tone it's the worst and uh oh no one told you well then i get a text my manager's going to. Oh, no one told you? Well, then I get a text. My manager's going to talk to my, to like sign, you know, all we need to do is like sign the other part of the deal, which is like the pickup or whatever.

You know, you get like signed for like five records and each time they can decide whether they're going to pick you up or throw you away. And so then I get a text from my manager going back to LA because she's from LA. And she's like, yeah, they didn't pick it up. So you've been dropped and I'm about to leave. I'm on a plane. So we'll talk luck and i'm like what i do got dropped by my label by text and my

manager's like turning my phone off now bye and i was like cool the worst i'm just sitting on my sofa and being like very frustrated right now this but so the record you just recorded had no home? Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. So then I was angry. Yeah. Very angry. And that kind of fueled the whole journey because it was like. But didn't they, who, so they paid to record the fucking thing and then they just didn't put it out? No, I paid.

I paid. I self-funded it because I was like, I want to make this now. And they hadn't like picked up the thing so it's like a mixture of like me being like very headstrong and like needing to make the record then because i was like i'm gonna die if i don't make it yeah and then my managers being like yeah we'll just do this we'll cover it and like bad management and just kind of that's bad management if they let you spend your money yes yeah that's like it seems to be rule one in management right let me figure out a way to make someone else pay for that

yeah yeah yeah yeah so so then i'd like spent all this money on the record and they weren't putting it out and then i was like okay i'm just gonna fucking put it out then and so i got distribution and um put it out myself what do you mean you got distribution? You got released? I just needed like a distributor because I Oh, it's online. To like make the record and like produce them. An aggregator. Yeah.

Yeah. So I got that and then we had like tours booked and I just like just went on the train and ride and just fucking rode the train

till 2014. So you did actual vinyl or you mean you needed somebody to release it Yeah, there was vinyl. Both. Both. Like a distributor

to make sure it's So it was more your money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you dumped all your cash into it. Both. Both. Like a distributor. So it was more your money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you dumped all your cash into it. Yeah. Did you?

And how? So you kept your manager. It's funny. No, I fired her the week before my album came out. So no one's representing you? So no one managed me. How'd you book the road gigs and shit? I had my agents.

I did have my agents. I still had that. All right. All right. And then, yeah, and then I got a new manager who kind of came in in this chaotic time so you toured that record though yeah the third one girls talk i played lollapalooza and coachella in 2014 like that goes right up to 2014 okay okay yeah but you went so you did this record you self-funded it and you you got you got it together, and

then you toured. You ended up at Coachella, which is good. Yeah. Lolo was like the last gig we did. Okay. And then you go back to England? No, I went back to LA. I was like, I'm going to move to LA.

Oh, you just recorded. That's when I decided to move to LA. So you recorded in England, and you recorded here, you went back to England, and that's when they dropped you. And then you came back. And then I just kept coming back to LA, and it was like, I'm going to be here. They just like felt like I needed to be here. Yeah.

So I moved. And that's where we start the story. Chapter one. Yeah. That was, and that's where everything. That was like the pre. So this is, so this is like, this is where the documentary picks you up. Yeah.

And the only thing that still, it seems like the only constant is the the living bunny oh yeah yeah um all right so so after that you get a new manager now when do you and the record sells or no i does girl talk do it It does all right. I'm really proud of that. I was like, I feel like I kept afloat. That's how I felt afterwards. And you made your money back? No. But well, then I signed a publishing deal.

And so then I get money from that. So I'm like, okay, I feel secure. I'm financially secure. I invested in all this. Publishing deal. And then you got people putting your stuff on movies and TV shows. Well, that's the goal. Right.

So I get a big check of money to live. And I TV shows? Well, that's the goal. Right. So I get a big check of money to live and I'm like, yes, I'm okay. In LA. It's worth it, yeah. You moved. Yes, and then I try and do this bullshit writing for other people thing. This is the worst thing anyone... What does that mean? Oh, through the publishing deal.

It's the sausage factory of the music industry. It's like why every song sounds the same. So you pick an artist and you're gonna try there's like a board and it's like jojo needs a song rihanna needs a song it's like here's like three producers and you two writers and go in and try and write melodies and everyone's like bickering over and you and you get that through the publishing and i and i hate that it knocks my confidence like crazy because it's just it's just it's not why i do music it's not how i make music it's not how i write it's like it's like trying to hit the goal here's a metaphor here's a mushroom right let's come up with a bunch of like love metaphors and breakup metaphors about

this mushroom and then like build like the the this has to be this many lines this is the pre this is the chorus here's the bridge and then it's like a formulaic like yeah i hated it so much but if you nail one you can make some money that's what they're looking for yes yeah right if you get you get so and so to do the song it's always been like that yes yeah yeah um but you really have to get like a song like you know it has to be like justin bieber because i wrote a song for like like rita aura and it was like that didn't really get any money like you know it has to be like big big big big right um and uh and it was just like my self-esteem's going down spirit yeah and i've like got into another shit relationship

with another drug addict yeah and you just pick the nodding guy at the club oh god yeah yeah and and like i mean i'm in the music industry there's a lot of them out there that's kind of like my colleagues so it's all like self-esteem i didn't even realize my self-esteem is going down and down and down and i'm not really realizing it and then i get into this humongous monetary dispute with a manager one of the the old ones? Mm-hmm. Which one? The one that came in.

The first, second, or third one? The one that came, probably like the fifth, but the one that came in. Oh, after you fired the one that texted you and then got on the plane? Yeah.

So the fourth one or whatever? Yeah. Yeah. And then it just, you know, is like all my money's gone. What was the money? Was it tour money? What money?

It was my personal income had depleted hugely for mysterious reasons, Mark. Really? Yes. And you had to go to court? Yeah, but it was like three. I mean, I went to court when we were like, I mean, I don't know what year that was. But it was, it went on for like three, it went on for a long time. And I moved home. I couldn't pay rent i moved home i had no no money that's when i like

had that moment back to england i moved back to england i 2014 or 15 yep i sold my house in london it's like i had nothing i had to deal with this like tax bill on the publishing and it's all gone and there's like i'm like really tapped yeah and then i fire the guy i find my manager and um and you sold your house yeah i've like got nothing to get even to i sell my house to pay the tax bill on the publishing deal are you out of debt uh no i'm like i've got nothing i'm fucked then because i haven't got like my asset of my house so you move back in with your mother so i move back in with my mom i remember the worst day where i'm like lying on my bed i was lying on my sister's bed i was in my sister's room so i'm running and i'm just really still and i just remember being like i just need to be really

still right now because i can't like tip nothing can tip over right now everything has to stay really still my mom comes in she was like are you okay and i was like i, nothing can dip over right now. Everything has to stay really still. My mom comes in and she was like, are you okay? And I was like, I just need to be alone right now. I just need to be really still. Like, please don't ask me any questions. She's like, okay, I'm just going to lie here. And I just like froze.

And I like couldn't go any, I couldn't, I just like stayed there. Paralyzed. Yeah, paralyzed. Paralyzed. So worse. Yeah, it's bad because like with the guttural emotion, go any i couldn't i just like stayed there paralyzed yeah paralyzed paralyzed so worse yeah it was it's bad because like with the guttural emotion you're like moving but this was like i can't go there i just need to like keep everything still so i just stay here how long did you stay there a week yes and then i mean I fucking auditioned for Glow and a month later I'm back in LA. Oh my God. So. And Glow saves my fucking life.

Did you spin out like in LA though when, before you moved? Lying on the floor, phone calls with business managers, phone calls with lawyers, phone calls with like trying to make this person responsible, trying to get my money back, trying. Did you come unraveled? Yeah, very much so. Yeah. So you lost it and you went home. It was fucking terrible. It was. Okay.

So then you're home. You're on the bed. I look at myself. It was. Okay, so then you're home, you're on the bed. I look at myself, okay, in the dock and I like don't know, I'm like that person looks so different to me and it's like the stress that you carry through that shit is like, is in my arm.

It's like the way I walk. It's like everything's like off. And then at the end of the movie, it's kind of like, oh, there I am. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, it's lucky. See, that's good that that you but your mom must have been helpful in a way i'm so lucky i have a family

i mean i was never going to end up on the streets like i have a family who would take me in and like and they're not like they were probably always a little hesitant about show business anyway yes yeah yeah my mom like doesn't give a fuck if i do this or not for like her sake she like wants me to do whatever i want to do and be happy. And actually, this world terrifies her for very sensible reasons. So you were there and you went home and then you auditioned for GLOW while you were in England? Yeah, I do a tape for Jen Easton. Yeah.

And I'm like, I need this. I fucking, this is mine. Did you make another rabbit deal? I just like, oh God, I don't know. I just felt I need this. I fucking, this is mine. Did you make another rabbit deal? I just like, God, I don't know. I just felt like I needed it. I won't need it all if you let me get close. I just knew it was mine. I knew it was mine.

I knew it was mine. That's so great. Yeah. And then there we were. I knew it was mine. And then fucking a month later, I'm in a fucking ring learning how to wrestle and that's kind of what builds my confidence is like around these amazing women and we learn to wrestle together yeah and like fuck me like that is one way to deal with the first season like you know when everyone was getting to know each other weren't you going

through didn't you have another dude right well that that carried on for a little longer than it should have yeah so that was the dude from when you lost your shit and same dude yeah yeah yeah because i remember that was a problem for a while yeah didn't he i think he came to set once oh god okay yes it was a problematic relationship that went on way longer than it should have. I'm getting them confused, though, because Mariana brought some dude. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That dude, that hairy dude. Was yours a hairy dude?

No, no, no. That was Mariana's. Yeah. There was a few dodgy glow dudes around for the first season, for sure. And I think, honestly, the confidence I gained from the show gave me the confidence to go, I need to be treated better, you know?

Like, and I am going to, like, stop this pattern. Yeah, I think it seemed like the show worked that way for a lot of people. God, it changed, like, yeah. Among you women, you know? I mean, you know, it was good for me. You know, I was happy to have the gig, but I definitely saw some sort of sisterhood evolving. Yeah. Where a lot of people were going through some rough times.

I mean, it seemed like you were like, I don't like in, and I guess Kia has, you know, her problems with, you know, physical problems and whatnot, but like, but there was, there was definitely stuff going on in that community near those trailers. Glow Alley. Yeah, where I'd kind of walk by. I'm like, all right, well, they're talking. I hope everything's okay over there.

Yeah. All right, so then did you just consciously, kind of not, because you had the gig, did you consciously sort of like not pressure yourself to make more music or where were you at with that so yeah i focused on that and then after glow season one finished i was like okay i'm gonna put out this record that i've been like unraveling making over these however many years i was like frozen in time for which was like three or three years or whatever and i and i piece it all together and i make an album and then i just like spent

those however many months we're like not doing glow i do a kickstarter campaign six five or six months right or no like uh yeah we'd shoot for like three and a half four months and then until we do press yeah you know there's there's definitely five or six months. Yeah, so I toured. I got back on the road, got back in the van. In Europe? Yeah, and America. I did a tour in America.

How was the draw? It was good, good. Yeah, really good. So that's nice that that didn't get sad. I'm very lucky that I have a fan base who sticks by me through everything. That's great. And I've toured a lot over the years of like however many fucking years I've been doing

this, like 13 years. And you're going out with new material. Yeah. Now. Yeah. Oh, that's so good that you're not showing up and you're like, well, we had to go to a smaller place. Well, it's like the thing about the reality of like the middle class of the working of

the music industry is like some days you're in big venues and some days you're in tiny venues. I know it's the same with comedy. Yeah. It's like, you know, I think that that's something that really needs to be admitted

and out there. Like, some days you are playing to like 3,000 people and sometimes you're playing to like not many people and you're like trying to, that's kind of.

But not many, like what does that mean to you? Are you talking 40? Are you talking 200? Not 40, not 40, like 200, Right.

But you go in and out of that like it's always a battle to like keep drawing people in because there's so much out there and you have just to get them to know you're going to be in town the amount of times i've been like blasting it on social media and then i play in denver and the next day someone comments when are you coming to denver and i'm like fuck you i don't know if those people are doing that on purpose but I get that too it's like do I need what is that I don't know but I is it like a mess up in the algorithm but it's so funny I have the same anger like you know somehow it's their fault it's like I did everything I could other than call you yeah so I can't I don't know what to tell you yeah pay attention I don't I've been talking, I've been announcing it on my show for three months.

Not my fault. That's so good that you can do that, though, announce all your stuff on here. Yeah, but still, you still get people. It's like, I don't know when you come and do it. They don't pay attention. But you do get mad at them. It's like, what the fuck? What kind of fan are you?

Are you an idiot? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do I got to do? Yeah. Well, that's good that they stayed with you. So over the two or three seasons of Glow, you're able to run this material and then finally lay it down, huh? Yeah. And I mean, I just toured this summer in England at festivals and we had amazing shows.

And I guess I'm finally at this clearing where I've dealt all the like years of the shit that's been going on. And now I feel I'm like, okay, I can kind of decide what I want to do now. Did you get on your feet financially and everything? That's great. Yeah. I mean, with Glow and then we've got one more season. It's nice that we know that we've got this season, but it's also nice to know it's the last one as opposed to like waiting every year right you know kind of half ending it every year oh god yeah yeah and then just sort of like well if we didn't get another

one that's okay to end there yeah but now they can really end it right you know they're gonna end it right i think so i have no idea how i even fit in anymore i'm making a movie with my daughter i don't know what how does everyone come back together? They're going to figure it out. All right. I know they will. Yeah. I know what you mean.

I'm like, I feel it's very emotional, Glo. I know, but like what's going to happen with you and Bash? I know. How does that? What's going to happen? I don't know. I think maybe he comes out fully. Do you think?

I think Rhonda would accept him. Yeah. I feel like he could. He should. I hope he does out fully. Do you think? I think Ronda would accept him. Yeah. I feel like he could. He should. I hope he does. Yeah. Yeah. But like,

if they can end it where we all get different jobs, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, there's like one more wrestling thing and then we all,

and then we all separate. And then they cut, maybe the last episode is just like 10 years from now. Oh my God. I hope we also do a glow movie in like 20 years. now. Oh, my God. I hope we also do a Glow movie in like 20 years. Right. Well, you know, we do have that option.

Like they, because it's the 80s, you can literally, they can do an episode. The last episode could be us five years down the line. Yeah, yeah. In 1992 or three. It's so crazy to think of it being over because it's been such a huge life-saving thing in so many ways. It happens in a weird space for me because last season I was sort of off on my own. I wasn't shooting as much. So it happened in sort of a dream state.

And then when I saw it, I'm like, oh, yeah, I did that. I didn't even remember it happening. Also, I was so skinny. I got lost all that weight. And I'm like, how come no one asked if Sam has cancer? Oh my God. He's so skinny. Cause you're on a diet.

I know, but I just wanted to lose a few pounds so I didn't get fat during the show. And then it felt so good to lose the weight. And so you just kind of got into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was uh i like you know it feels good that control thing yeah yeah all right so this record is out now did did a label do this or did you do it no this is me oh so and that works for you huh and it's selling

okay yeah yeah it's uh i feel like that's what i mean like at this new place where i'm like yeah you know what do I do next? Do I do another record on my own? I can do that. And I'm so, I feel so like- Who produced it? Multiple people, actually, because this was like a sort of scrap heap record.

Yesterday was forever. Yes. Yeah. And it's a picture of you, looks like Joshua Tree. Yeah, it was Joshua Tree. Who's this guy, Jared? Jared is awesome. I did a few songs with him.

Who's he? He lived in LA and we just did sessions. We got put together on a very annoying writing camp thing. And then we just clicked. A writing camp? Yeah. Who put you? What do you mean?

Those sausage factory things where you write for a year. Oh, yeah. But we just liked each other and were both not really liking that world. And we just kind of went to his i went to his house and he has a studio there and we just wrote songs together and it was really fun and so he was a huge relief during that period of time because i don't that's nice i don't know this whole world of people with one name jared critstein is his name uh-huh but he's credited as jared k oh yeah probably just to fit him in and And what about, oh, is that all? Yeah. And who's Ty?

T-H-A-A-E. Who's that guy? Oh, Frederick, the savior of like that period of time. Really, he. How do you say his name? Frederick Toe. Toe. Okay.

So he's a, I got introduced with one of the many thousand managers I've had. I got introduced to him. And we just, like we, I love working with him of the many thousand managers I've had I got introduced to him and we just like we I love working with him he's a producer yeah and he's just like of the same background as me with like

I hate to say this but like real music you know what I mean yeah and we just have like really good studio chemistry and we'll like do a song in like four hours

and have the best time and he became during that period of time was a fucking like save place for me to go and just like write music yeah and do what i loved and kind of helped me find that again that i actually loved it you know because it's very like it's a very like self-destructive thing when the thing that you like care about the most in the world and then do most of your life adult life is the only thing i've ever done yeah yeah and then it gets destroyed and you don't know if you're ever going to be able to do it again and you also don't really know like who you are and what you think and how to have the confidence to you don't even think you're

good anymore and there's like oh my god it's like so, not having like purpose like that was like the most loss I've ever felt in my life. Yeah, and I guess with, it's probably easier for that to happen with music than it is for like what I do. Even though it's still self-generated, you do, you're sort of at, you're kind of beholden to your past success and also you know in styles

of the moment and now it's i feel like it's so hard for um you know bands now like i i'm so lucky that i have that made of bricks success yeah because having like a platinum record and a brit award and like you know a number one record in my history, has like always been there. Right. It's always there. It's like an accolade I always carry and that helps like. Give you some gravitas.

Yes, and I worry for the bands that don't get that or have that and I think. I don't know what they do. It's fucking hard, man. Believe me, I get a lot of records from people who are just, you know, they got a dream and they're putting it out there. Yeah, I mean.

It's a matter of like, how do you get someone to pick it up? How do you get someone to come to Denver? Yeah, yeah. How is someone going to be like, oh, this is great? Yeah. Because it just, there is so much out there.

But it looks like, but I'm glad that you did this. Thank you. And we're going to start shooting when? In February? Who knows? Yeah, February. I heard it was February. I heard the rumor. Yeah.

Is that what you heard? Yeah. I think. I think that that's what people said from the last. Right? Yeah. I think so. Because I'm like, yeah.

I mean, I got cleared to do something in January. Oh, great. Oh, that's good. Yeah. So it must be after that. So we might. Unless they haven't told me yet. My manager's going to tell me something and then say, I got to go.

You're not in the season. You're in one episode. Text you and then get on a plane. Have a fatal heart attack in episode one. I got to go. Do you think any of us are going to die? I hope not. Oh, God.

That'd be terrible. Not in real life, but you know. We're all going to die in real life. In real life, we know we're going to die. But I don't think we need to do that on the show. No. Do we? It's a bus accident where we all go.

It would be cool if we all just fly off and explode. Yeah, great. Like the Challengers. Yeah. Like the Challenger explosion. That's terrible. That was so brutal. Yeah.

All right. So now you've got a new boyfriend. Is he unlike the others? Yes. He's a nice person. Okay, good. Very good person. Congratulations.

Thank you. That's growth. I did grow. You seem to. I, good. Very good person. Well, congratulations. Thank you. That's growth. I did grow. You seem to. I'm very happy. Self-producing, growth. Yeah. Grounded.

Yeah. Know who you are again. Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. And if people want to see the documentary of you unraveling, what's that called again? Underestimate the girl. Yeah.

Go watch that because she's a lot better now. How does that end, that documentary? Well, it goes right up until Glow. Yeah, go watch that because she's a lot better now. How does that end, that documentary? Well, it has, it goes right up until Glow. Oh, okay. I was shooting until Glow, yeah. So if you want more detailed visuals

of what we've discussed today, you can go watch that and the new record is out on all the platforms. It's out there. On all the places you get records. Everywhere you can find music it'll be there

waiting for you. Yesterday was forever. Go back and listen to all the listen to the evolution. Yeah. Yeah. And wait for what's to come.

Nice ending. Nice talking to you Kate. Thank you. See? Quite quite the rollercoaster ride for Kate there. But I'm glad she landed on her feet. It's great working with her. Her latest album, Yesterday Was Forever, is available wherever you get music.

You can also watch her in all three seasons of GLOW, streaming now on Netflix. And now I will play guitar for you and take a nap. Thank you. Boomer lives. Okay, Boomer. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an

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