WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1070 - Tony Hale

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

Tony Hale is trying to be more present. He’s motivated by the fact that some of the biggest moments of his career on shows like Arrested Development and Veep are lost down the memory hole. Tony and Marc trace the reasons for these mental gaps, which are largely attributable to childhood panic attacks, codependency, and a long-running search for identity. They also talk about Tony’s reliance on his faith, his comedy partnership with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and his emergence as a beloved children’s character, Forky. This episode is sponsored by Vital Farms, New Mexico, The Only Podcast Left, and quip toothbrushes. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? How's it going?

I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Now, look, I'm recording this a little early, earlier than usual to accommodate my travel plans. So it's not that like I'm on the cutting edge of topical shit to begin with. But I just want you to know that this is a this has been on the shelf for a few days. And I and I and I hope that's OK with you. I'll try to I'll try to keep it evergreen, thinking about reading a couple emails, thinking about reacting to a couple things.

This is really a great conversation today. I'm going to tell you that right now. Tony Hale is on the show today. Now, Tony Hale is truly, I think, one of the funniest comedic actors working. You've seen him in Veep. You've seen him on arrested development he's he's now the voice of forky in the show forky asks a question for the new disney plus streaming service uh that launches tomorrow november 12th he also has his own animated

show on netflix called archibald's next big thing i did a voice of a hermit crab on that show but you know him from from all his comedic work and all his straight acting work. But we had a very interesting talk about faith and about being a person of faith, you know, not so much in an argumentative way, but just, you know, the way people talk about their life and what their life is. It was just, I think getting to know Tony was an exciting thing for me to do because I have a great respect for his talent. But now as a person, you get to know people a little better. We had a lot in common. Jesus not being one of them.

But I respect his position on it and his life in light of that and everything else. It was just one of those talks that went a place that's very interesting and exciting to me. So that's coming up. I guarantee you, you'll be surprised and excited to get to know Tony. Funny fucking guy. And you're just great. I mean, Jesus, on Veep? Are you kidding me?

All right. So here's some emails. Some of them are heavy, but I'll share them with you. You know, I recently engaged with somebody who thought it was uh you know not right and i talk about this in a future podcast in an interview i just did the other day to you know share about uh being an aa even though i say i don't represent aa even though there's other ways to get sober and whatever but you got to know the shit's out there but there's people within the program that are like hey man there's a tradition that says you can't talk about it publicly well well that condition is like the constitution

it needs in a need that tradition it's like there's a an amendment needs to be made this is the real world this is modern times this is you need to save lives but anyways i just say that because i do get emails like this one. Sober on the streets of Nashville. Hi, Mark. I wanted to reach out to you today as I just got my first year of sobriety. And it was through your podcast that I came to understand that it was something I wanted. I picked up on the concept of sobriety being treated as a spiritual connectedness through one of your episodes. Forgive me, I can't remember which one it was exactly.

And while it took me another year to get sober, I always remember that one moment on your show where you seemed to have something I wanted, as we say in the program. Anyways, my wife and I came to your show in Nashville last month. It was hilarious. And we ran into you on the street after. I asked you if you wanted to get dinner as you seemed to seem to tat alone, but you're on your way to the Ryman to see Jason Isbell. It was an honor to be able to say hi to you for a second. Shake your hand, though. I hope you enjoyed Jason. Enjoyed performing for us and had an all-around good time in Nashville.

Kind regards, Josh, in Nashville. Yes, I had a great time. Congratulations on your year of sobriety. That is no small feat, man. Good shit. Good for you. So along the same lines, hey, line lozenges i really enjoy it when you talk about nicotine lozenges i'm not really sure why i find it so fascinating i haven't had a

cigarette in seven years i don't i don't even want to smoke again i loved it but i guess i tricked my brain into being over it quit cold turkey i was having weird heart palpitations that were freaking me out so i quit everything for a week no No caffeine, cigs, booze, nothing. I guess from the caffeine nicotine withdrawals, I ended up sleeping most of the week. It wasn't really hard for me to stay off the cigs and coffee. Gave up my coffee for about five years. Terrible. Back on it.

I love it. My life's more enjoyable with a couple of daily cups. My buddy's been off cigarettes for two years, but he's still on the nicotine gum. He says it's great. He says he keeps them regular. Another friend of mine was trying to get off the vape, and he heard your pod with Dorf and decided to get some Walgreens lozenges. It worked for him.

He's off the vape. Now I catch myself eyeing the lozenges and the gum when I'm at the store. Would I be an idiot to get on lozenges after being off nicotine for seven years? I don't know. I have my two cups of coffee in the morning, and then I'm like, damn, now what? What's up on those fucking lozenges? Huh? Anyway, congrats for getting off the lozenges. Thanks for the pod and the comedy. So look, dude, don't do it. You're off. You're out. There's no fucking way that you're not going to get strung out on lozenges.

If you're an addict, listen to you, even the write holy shit don't do it don't do it because you'll be in it you'll be in it and then you'll have to kick it i can't believe i'm going on vacation without a fucking monkey on my back sorry i was looking at my phone um why is this happening it's weird like what my phone just um just recorded everything i just said and transcribed it into a text to brendan it was not why this i've i got a 10 and the buttons are fucked i'm sorry where's my brain anyways um this one gets a little darker putting dad down subject line mark my dad's been suffering from parkinson's for about 15 years and his health is of course degrading severely as the incurable disease progresses i struggle emotionally with watching this from a distance and feeling helpless as my job requires i live

across the country from my parents i wish i could be there to help my mother with the growing weight of caring for my aging father and my inability to be there in any constructive manner pains me. So your little back and forth about taking your dad to the vet to put him down struck a chord. It was exactly the comic relief about my own situation I desperately needed. Were you being cynical? Maybe a little, but it highlights our national need to be able to discuss end-of-life planning without stigma or fear. But overall, you brought some much-needed levity

to a difficult situation, and I appreciate that. My sense of humor comes primarily from my father, and he would have found your discussion equally amusing. Regards, HR. Glad to help out, pal. Sorry what you're going through. It's horrible.

And you're right. We do need to sort of talk about death in a more grown-up fashion without denial and also about end-of-life planning. I think you're absolutely right. I think that is true. So what does this one say? Oh, yes. Yeah, this is sad. Um, you know, this guy, you know, it's I I'm dreading this dear Mark subject line, my cat passing. I've been a big fan of yours for years and both good times and bad and the many states of mind and circumstances in between. I've

turned to your WTF podcast, your shows into, and to your movies for laughter, insight, and most of all, for heart. Thank you so much for all that you do for me and for millions of others. Two weeks ago, my beloved cat Jasper died suddenly from a cardiac event. There was no warning up to that morning, and he died laying next to me in the passenger seat of my car on the way to the emergency vet, my hand petting the top of his head, trying to soothe his tremendous pain. the emergency vet, my hand petting the top of his head, trying to soothe his tremendous pain. I cried my eyes out, and when I got to the vet, even more so when I was told, as I'd feared, that he was indeed gone, and there was nothing more that I or anyone else could do to save him.

Today, having picked up his ashes from the vet, and with many tears shed, I think about how I've gotten through the last couple of weeks, and how among my friends and family, and yes, my psychoanalyst too, another person has also been such an ally in this journey of mourning. You, Mark Maron, and your WTF podcast, I think of your love, your grittiness, your unabashedly being yourself, and I think of you, your being a cat person through and through and how I believe you'd get this, that you'd empathize with me and that I'd feel both your humor and your heart. So I'm writing this in hopes of it reaching you, maybe even hearing something back, and to say that you keep helping my life get better, including in times of loss. Respectfully, yours, Jack in Seattle. Jack, I'm sorry, man. You know, there's nothing anyone can say or do to make grief any easier. I mean, maybe you can make it easier, but it's still going to last as long as it's going to last.

And we love these fucking animals. God damn it. I've been spending so much time with Monkey right now because he's sick and he's 15 and his sister is 15. And I'm giving him the pills. I don't think I'm going to get him radiated because he's 15 and his sister is 15 and I'm giving him the pills. I don't think I'm going to get him radiated because he's always OK, but I'm really paying attention to enjoying his company. It's a weird thing that you get to do. Not so much with parents or kids or you may be when they're sick, but I don't want to

be too dark. But, you know, with animals, when they get old, you know, you're supposed to outlive the animals, generally speaking. And, you know you're you're supposed to outlive the animals generally speaking and you know it's coming and i think that there is a way to start the grieving before they go but i'm sorry you lost your cat suddenly i hope you had a good life with you and you had a good life with him and you know what jack and i'm not this is not cynical but once you get over it you can just get another one. I know the cat with Jasper was special, but they're all fucking geniuses, and you can just pick them up off the street.

They're like everywhere. With one phone call, you could find a dozen cats if you wanted. There's plenty of cats that need love, and you will find the strength to get one eventually. But I hear you. I empathize. I get it, dude. Tony Hale, you know him from Veep, from Arrested Development,

from other features, animated things, Drunk History, all of that. He's the voice of Forky in the show Forky Asks a Question for the new Disney Plus streaming service. That launches tomorrow, November 12th. He also has his own animated show on Netflix called Archibald's Next Big Thing. I did a voice for that. I played a hermit crab. And I've always been curious about Tony and what he's like and who he is.

And I was thrilled to have him and glad he came over. I didn't know if it was going to happen. And it's happened. It's happened and he's here. So this is me talking to Tony Hale. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun.

A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Boy. So how'd our cartoon turn out? So for those of you who didn't know, Mark did a voice on this cartoon I produced called Archibald's Next Big Thing,

and he played a hermit crab who was very used to living alone, and his shell got broke, and Archibald the chicken came along and said, well, I need to help you find a home, and his name was Freddy. Yeah, yeah. And Freddy was like, no, I need to help you find a home. And his name was Freddy. Yeah. Yeah.

And Freddy was like, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. And Archibald's like, no, let me help you. You want me to do it? No, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay.

And then in the end, the lesson is like, you know, he needed a little push to get some friends. Yeah. He always thought he, oh, I can live an isolated life. Yeah. And Archibald's like, no, you need, we need community. Yeah. Yeah.

And it worked out. And then there was a lot of crabs at the end, I remember. an isolated life. And Archibald's like, no, you need, we need community. Yeah. Yeah. And it worked out. And then there was a lot of crabs at the end, I remember. You built a crab condo. Yeah, a crab condo. At a broken pottery piece. But this was, that was based on a book you co-wrote? I wrote with my buddies, Tony Biagni and Victor Huckabee years ago called Archibald's Next Big Thing. But was that a popular book?

It kind of, nah, I mean, it was an amazing experience. I don't think it like did, it did not do gangbusters, but it was really fun because it was based on this idea of me always looking to the next thing and missing where I was. And so Archibald. That's a real problem we all have, Tony. Yeah. I mean, i'm still struggling with it yeah and he gets anyways he gets a card in the mail that says your big thing is here and

he's like where and he goes on all these adventures but he's like i gotta get to my next big thing and this b comes along it's like you gotta just be man yeah and then in the end he realizes the truth is our big thing is right here my big thing is talking to you right now that's my big thing right but do you have this problem? I noticed this as we're talking about that thing I did with you is that, and I knew you were coming over today, is that I knew I did it. I knew I played a hermit crab. I knew I was cranky.

But because really when it comes down- Which was very nice of you to do, by the way. I appreciate you doing it. No, it's great. I was happy to do it. It was fun. But it's really like you're only, I'm in the studio basically one day and then another day for pickups and I'm sitting in there yesterday and I'm like, I can't remember the fucking

story. I know I was a crab, but does that happen to you or should I go to the doctor? No, you shouldn't go. What if today's the day I'm like, you have a real problem, Mark? No, I... Like I can't remember shit. Well, I... Okay, here's...

This is what my... Go ahead. Take your time. I say this knowing that I still struggle with it. So I'm coming from a place of like, this is a daily battle for me. I don't remember most of my life. And I actually don't remember sixth grade down at all.

Really? Not even best? I don't remember friends. I don't remember teachers. I don't remember teachers. I don't remember anything. None of it? None of it. None of it.

Really? Yeah. Therapists have tried to crack the code. I don't even understand. But I do know the older I got, I still don't remember much. However, when I wasn't practicing being present in a place, I feel like I've been most, I've been pretty detached for most of my life, whether it be with anxiety or checked out somewhere else, whether in, you know, dreaming about something or creating narratives that haven't happened yet, whatever it

is. And when that happens- Horrible narratives? Oh yeah. Fully, like full narratives. I've already walked through trauma that doesn't even exist. And so I think with that, you're not there. And so I don't remember it. And the times that I have practiced being present, and I will say Veep is an example of that. During Arrested Development, I was not very present. And that's where the book came from. Right. Where Archibald came from? Yeah. That kind of idea of just being present. And Veep um i really tried to be there and i remember more yeah of that of that and it's recent and it's recent and it's a lesson i'm trying especially

having a daughter she's 13 she's 13 now she's 13 and i'm really like tony be right here don't be somewhere checked out in your head because these are going yours are going fast right they do go by very fast and i just have old cats to look at yeah i don't have very sweet cats that i just met i can't believe one of them is 15 there are two of them are 15 where they're brother and sister where'd the name monkey come from monkey looked like a monkey he did you think the cat looked like a monkey when i first got him he had this weird tuft of hair on his nose that went away that kind of reconfigured his face to look more like a monkey face oh yeah where did you get him i got lafonda and monkey and they were running around find that yeah that was my so good my uh my uh

ex-wife uh named that cat i think it was probably after napoleon dynamite but i pulled those cats out of the back alley of my astoria apartment in 2004 wow there were five of them and they were all feral it's quite a story i've told it many times i trapped them all in boxes thinking they would just be fun kittens but they were already wild and then i couldn't get them out of my house and it was a fucking disaster yeah yeah yeah and you don't have any allergies? No, not that I know of. Do you? Mm-hmm. 100%. Cat? Yeah.

Did you know that you were cats? Nope. You were supposed to be told. It's totally fine. I've got my inhaler with me. Oh, okay. Because years ago- So you might have watched me have a-

A full allergy? An asthma attack on radio. I've seen it before. Years ago, Ed Helms almost died in the garage, and sadly and selfishly, I had not gotten the amount of time I've seen it before. Years ago, Ed Helms almost died in the garage and sadly and selfishly, I had not gotten the amount of time I wanted out of him. So,

I let poor Ed wheeze through. So, he has asthma, Ed. He has cat allergy bad. Yeah. Like real bad because that garage,

I didn't even let the cats in. So, it must have been through the air conditioner or something. I think the old, I used to not be able to have any pets we got some dogs and i think that has kind of decreased my sensitivity

the dander sensitivity well let's talk about this thing because like you're saying that um with veep you were more present and and more able to remember though it was recent don't you find that like during arrested development at least in the first season I mean you were still struggling to some degree right I mean yeah you know so that whole weird struggle part of like you know like am I gonna land is this you know like if everything that you do that's still part of that act of struggle before you sort of land and go I'm okay if you're lucky enough to be okay which you are in terms of you know career right and you're it enough to be okay, which you are in terms of, you know, career, right. And you're,

it's still always a, a struggle to be like rest and just, Hey, I'm provided for, you know, it's like, that's right. But it's amazing how we're always younger.

It's always a hustle. It can always feel like a hustle, but that anxiety levels, it levels your ability to sort of take in what's happening. And I talk about this a lot of time to the point where I'm like, Oh God, I'm sure I'm just boring everybody. To who? I don't know. Anytime I, this is, I mean, I get on a bit of a soapbox about it because I got my dream on Arrested Development and it didn't satisfy me the way I thought it was going to satisfy me.

Does anything? If I think if I, but here's the thing. Anything doesn't if your expectations are unrealistic and my, I think I came into Arrested Development because all the times in New York, I was like, all I wanted was a sitcom. I just wanted a sitcom. And I was there seven years and I was like, that's coming, that's coming. And I gave it too much weight.

And then I got there and I was like, Oh, the reality is that I, just the reality of like, I gave it too much power. And so I think because of that, I woke up to the fact of like, I had been just not been very present. Oh, I might see, I think that when I really look at things, my expectations are really, really for the most part, just to feel better. Yeah. Like, I don't think it's going to solve any big problems or that I'm going to launch into some other level of fame.

But I'd like to get through something, and after I'm through it, not go like, God, I could have done better. But don't you, I don't know if you do this, I think my time in New York, and I still do this to an extent, whatever I was going through, whether it was the struggle or life or something, there was always this fantasy

and narrative in my head of like, oh, once that sitcom happens, once this perfect job happens, and for me it was the job someone else could be, once I get married, once I have a baby, whatever it is,

then something's going to click in. And I gave that thing too much power. And it's just, you know, and then I was there and I was like, and I've said this a lot, but it's that thing of if you're not practicing contentment where you are you're not going to be content when you get what you want those seem to be the big theme so like where do you where do you come from and just in and growing up yeah um i was the south i was right well my dad was in the army i was an army brat really like how much how much did you

travel i think i traveled i think it was like seven times before six or seven times before the Well, my dad was in the army. I was an army brat. Really? Like how much did you travel? I think I traveled, I think it was like seven times before, six or seven times before the seventh grade. Yeah. And my brother and I talk about this. That might have been a part of the memory thing. Just you really didn't really. Were you like in Germany?

Yeah, we were in Germany. We lived in Heidelberg in Berlin for five years. And then the seventh grade, we settled in Tallahassee. I love Tallahassee. Why do. And I love Tallahassee. Why do you have that reaction? I don't. Do you not like Florida? I avoid it.

My mother's there. Oh, where? She's in... My parents are in Vero Beach. Hollywood, Florida. Fort Lauderdale area. Oh, yeah, okay. The Jew area. Yeah.

Sure, sure, yeah. And Jews and Germans in the summer. Yeah. But no, I've grown to appreciate florida but i actually did a show in tallahassee um at the college at fsu yeah part of a program which was good but it was like shortly after the election i mean tallahassee is the south where my mother is is something else it is true tall Tallahassee is very Georgian. Yeah. And my feelings was only because it's a very small pocket of blue

within that world. And at that time, I'm looking at the businesses and the way that I'm judging to a certain degree. But I did have one of these revelations there where I was at some health food restaurant near the college

and there was three or four older-looking progressive people kind of huddled and talking about how terrified they were. And I'm like, is this what America is going to look like? We're just like huddled groups of old hippies going like, we're in trouble. So I think it was my opinion of it. The school seemed great and the audience was pretty good. And I just spent middle school and high school there,

and I had a typical off and on growing up, but I had some really good memories there, so I enjoy going back. So you do have those memories. Yes. A couple. A couple. But to that point, I mean, it was tough at times,

but I found this theater that I really kind of felt seen and enjoyed my brother was into sports i wasn't into sports really like what was he he was a soccer he was a soccer player and i just did your brother he was older and i didn't like sports and in the south you know everything is sports and so when my parents found this theater it was a real gift and so i have a lot of very very fond memories about you were like a children's theater yeah it was young actress theater in Tallahassee, Florida, and it was started by Tina Williams. And the thing is, I'm a huge advocate for arts education because even if you don't go into a career like we have,

certain personalities need those environments to thrive, and I was one of those personalities. Yeah, I just did a benefit. I host a benefit every year for Flea's Music Conservatory. Oh, yeah. The Silver League Conservatory of Music. Yeah, yeah. Which he did in response

to public schools cutting music programs. I know. And I don't even, I mean, it's, I was not just, there's so many personalities that need that environment and it's crazy for them

to keep cutting those funds. Like, what about, well, what about well what about your because like i had that you know like i had a guitar teacher yeah like i didn't do it in public school yeah uh you know i didn't really the music classes didn't resonate with me too much i was they were sort of aggravating but guitar lessons did and but what is it you think what kind of personality what was it about you well i mean i was i was a very uh i was a really sensitive kid i was kind of a little bit uh a lot of energy yeah you know just kind of making jokes and quirky and um all that kind of stuff and

i don't know beyond i just wanted everybody to like me yeah very needy um there was i i didn't i remember this one story i didn't like sports so much i remember doing this swim meet and yeah these people were swimming next to me and i stopped in the middle of the meet and stood up and my dad has this look like what are are you doing? Keep going. And he said, I had this look that was like, why? I'm exhausted. Why would I keep swimming? But it was just, I felt like the theater was a space where, and I was encouraged to be kind of dramatic and goofy

and think beyond the box. And I loved making people laugh. What was your dad, so it's a military family, but it's not great Santini style, is it? No, my dad was very, he,

I really, they were always very supportive. My grandfather was in, was an opera singer and he was, Your dad's father? Yeah, and he performed also

in a lot of clubs in Miami. He died, he died when my dad was very young. So my dad had an appreciation for the arts. So in addition to having this kind of military training, he was very artistic. I wonder what drove him to the military.

I don't know. Is he still around? Yeah, he's still around. We've never really – that's a good question. We've never talked about it, but I think he went to West Point. Oh, he did. And he even taught nuclear physics at West Point at one point he's a smart guy he's a very smart guy really a sensitive guy him and my but him and my mom were always very

supportive and what's your mom do she was she she did a lot of things she stayed at home with us when we were growing up yeah and she just you and your brother me and my brother. And well, my sister, we have an older sister too. Oh, you do. And, but she also was actually involved in politics a lot. She helped people with campaigns when Bob Graham went for Senator and she helped this woman in Atlanta when she was going through her campaign.

And, you know, so she was kind of involved in politics too. Yeah. So were you aware of that then? No, I was only aware of myself yeah i was it was all about me i was just like when can i when can i like get a laugh when can i get attention how popular can i be all that stupid stuff but do you like when you know in your work so because you're sort of a very unique and uh memorable comic talent oh that's nice as nice. As are you. Thank you. But, you know, it is kind of interesting, especially with the stuff you do on Veep,

that that character, you know, in and of itself, is this, like, insanely codependent character. Yeah. Like, to a degree that I don't think's ever been really explored. Yeah. And it seems to come off. As is Buster Bluth on Arrested Development. True. But these are sort of like from what you're saying to me that this is a big component

of your personality. It is. I do codependency very well. I do it. But did you find like when you were younger that you were at a loss for outside of knowing how to laugh? I'm knowing how to laugh i'm knowing how to get laughs or wanting to get laughs i'm just yeah thinking about my own life did you did you

did you kind of um glom on to stronger personalities to kind of oh that's a good way yeah i i think i hmm that's a that's a good question because i think if a person was very popular, I would probably, yeah, I can see myself wanting, yeah, I did try to attach myself to them to get some kind of identity. Right. And that is what Gary did on Veep with Selena. He had no identity outside of Selena Meyer.

So yeah, I think I did that all through high school. I did too. And it's weird, I don't, because I consider you a fairly strong personality high school. I did too. And it's weird. I don't, because I consider you a fairly strong personality. I consider myself one too, but there's this emotional thing. And I have tried to figure out exactly why I have it. Yeah. I do think though, because I've listened to your podcast a lot,

and this is what's great about life is you, I mean, it's not that I don't struggle with it, but man, the older you get, you really do identify when, huh, I have a strong, I can settle in an identity I have and a value in I have and not have to people that seem so non-reflecting, non-reflexively grounded in themselves. Like, you know, when you see people that like, that guy never goes, who am I? Why am I so frightened? I'm actually envious of that, too. I'm envious of not walking around life and going, hey, we're spending on a planet, guys. This doesn't, you know.

It's not going to end well. I just drove by a graveyard. We're all going there. You know,, we're spending on a planet, guys. This doesn't, you know, I just drove by a graveyard. We're all going there. You know, like we're all, or like you want, sometimes you want to stand up events and be like, hey, we're all going to die. Does anybody recognize that? But some people, you're right. They kind of go through life and they accept it and they accept that. It's taken a long time for me to accept the uncertainty, to live in the powerlessness of it all, to kind of almost live in the powerlessness of it all, to kind of almost live in the question, all that kind of stuff. I find that if I let myself get exhausted by anxiety, all those questions seem to become unimportant.

The life questions? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Where it's just like, I can't do that. Yeah. But do you also find it, I think there's another side of it, I find it very comforting when I'm giving too much anxiety to something, too much power to something, and I'm like, Tony. I go to a meta place, and I'm like, again, we're spinning on a planet.

I was doing Conan once, and I walked off stage. Yeah. And I didn't feel like I did. It was very funny, and I bombed, or I said something stupid. No, this was, well, maybe a couple of years ago. I had this feeling like recently. Yeah. And I walked off and I went up to Andy and I was like, Andy, I just, I don't think that

was very funny. I think I bombed. And he goes, Tony, it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. And he's like, I think he gave the example of like, it's like a paper boat in the ocean. It just goes away. Andy's very good at that. He's so good at that. And I was like, and somebody else might interpret that as like, wow, it's like a paper boat in the ocean. It just goes away. Andy's very good at that. He's so good at that. And I was like, and somebody else might interpret that as like,

wow, that's really heavy, but that was such a gift to me. It's just like, yeah, it doesn't matter. And it matters even less now, usually. Yeah. In the sense of like, you know, who's going to see it? What are you really worried about? Who's going to judge you like you're going to judge yourself? Well, it's that narrative. I mean, i'll create a whole narrative of that someone will take that to an extreme and think you know whatever right and it's all my thing of creating conversations that people might be or actually here's the thing it's all narcissism to think that anybody will be thinking that much

about well that's what i used to do a joke it wasn't really a joke it was a line i wrote that where i said uh you know most of what other people are thinking is something you're making up. Yeah. Yeah. They're not thinking. Think about yourself, really. How much time do you spend? It's just crazy.

And the classic example, I'm sure you've done this, of when you're with a director, you're doing a scene, and you think you didn't do it right. You go home, and you think how much that director is obsessing about how awful you are, what choice, all this kind of stuff kind of stuff it's like that director has got so much to think about he's got so much on his plate he's not thinking about you or also when you walk off going like you know they don't care because like that was terrible and it's like well they chose to say cut yes they're moving on yeah they got something a lot is hanging on them yeah they're not gonna

let you do garbage yeah just go like fuck it we'll just let that guy die you know what a cool thing that i learned on veep i'm again still learning but david mandel took up the show from armando yunuchi and david was so fantastic but um however when i was with um armando yunuchi one thing brits do which is really great they don't give you highs and lows in terms of response so it's like when we were with armando yannucci he you would do something and i think i'm so used to like okay the director is either going to be like oh my gosh that was so great or you're going to know that kind of was not great yeah but armando always gave this kind of flat kind of even keel response to where you i had to begin to learn to trust my own my own validation my own you know

sense of how i think it went and walk off and go i can't rely on that director's because i mean in a typical actor format you're like okay he did a little chuckle his eye you know you you read however you think you did yeah and our manager just gave this real flat thing and it taught me to trust myself and i really it was that was a good four years of that right well it's it's about hijacking or or or at least pushing back on that voice that always tells you the same thing right yeah it's not quite good enough or it wasn't quite right like yeah we put that voice inside of our head because it seems like we have a lot in common around this and the best explanation that that i found for it and i don't know if it'll help you

no please was this uh i read this book called the fantasy bond by robert firestone that's a great title it's great but the idea is that you know when you're younger if your parents are self-involved or they're you know emotionally selfish or negligent or even abusive that when you feel uncomfortable as a very young person, you can't blame your parents because they're your parents. So you naturally blame yourself. So you implement a dialogue, an inner parent that tells you you're bad, that you're not good enough, that like clearly it can't be your parents.

It's got to be you. And that sticks in there. And that works for me. But it sounds like your parents were supportive today um did they give one tool that this therapist gave me that i love in regards to that is um if i'm you know feeling just you know the negative self-talk we do and just beat ourselves up and i think about if my daughter came to me and said hey dad i'm feeling kind of low i'm feeling kind of stressed out, overwhelmed. I would be like, honey, it's going to be okay. I'd hold her. I'd be like, Hey, we're in this together. Let's do this. However, I don't talk to myself that way. And he's like

beginning to talk to yourself as though you would to your daughter. Right. You know? Yeah. And I just, it's just, it's, it's so habitual for me to be like, Tony, what an idiot. Why would you do all this kind of stuff? And that, but I would never say that to my daughter. So self parenting. Yeah, self parenting. In a healthy way. No, it's great. Exactly, yeah.

Because I had that thing the other night, I taped this special and we did two tapings, right? And the first taping did not go well. And I knew it was not, I knew I could hit that. I knew it wasn't right. But everyone around me, director, executives, they're like, great, we got it. And I'm like, the fuck are you talking about?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I knew I was right. Would you say you built that on the response you got or the inner kind of like, I knew I could do the turns better, I knew I could do the rhythms better? No, it was just because it was a different type of theater. It was at the, we did it at the Red Cat Theater,

which is a black box theater, which is kind of a sparse, intense place. Right. And I was too, like I wanted to hit everything right, so I was too kind of a a sparse intense place right and i was too like i wanted to hit everything right so i was too kind of in it yeah it was felt too rehearsed the audience it was seven on a wednesday yeah and they were just you know they were entertained but i couldn't get a role going and i knew that and so going into the second one either i could have went like i'm fucked i'm just fucked all night or i'm like like, dude, how are you going to stay open?

How are you going to show up for this? How are you going to make this happen? Yeah. How are you going to get over this hump? Right. And luckily, the audience, I heard them with the opener. I was like, no, they're OK. They're better.

They're more responsive. I have such admiration for stand-up. I really do. It's like, man, just what you guys get and then able to say, all right, moving on. Yeah. I just knew that if I walked away from that second show with that same feeling, I would. But now, like, I did it and I'm like, it's over. I've been working a year and a half on that material and it's almost like a relief.

A year and a half. Yeah. And like, you know, it doesn't matter. So how do you get from Tallahassee? Like, how do you, where do you, so you pursue theater? How does it work? So I studied, yeah, I did, I loved theater in Tallahassee. In high school.

In high school. And then going to college, I didn't know if I could make a career out of it. So I studied journalism. Really? Which that's like a dying art. Yeah. But were you interested in that? I was more in the mass communications part of journalism

because I think I told them I liked people just because I didn't know if I could make a career off acting. Right. And I did that for four years, had a great experience at college. In journalism. In journalism in Alabama at the school called Samford. Alabama.

Birmingham, Alabama. Oh, we shot there. That's a great town, really. What did you shoot? The Lynn Shelton movie, Sword of Trust. Oh, yeah. We did two weeks there. I love Birmingham.

Yeah, there's something about it, huh? I love it. And so I, anyways, I did that. And then after that, I was like, well, let me dip my toe back into this acting thing. And I, in 1995, I moved to New York and just, and I didn't know anybody. Right after college? No, right after college, I went back home for a year. And then I, then I actually, I studied in Virginia a little bit. Acting? Acting, just to

kind of really. In Virginia, how do you get to Virginia from like, you go back home to Tallahassee and then. I went back to Tallahassee. heard about the school in Virginia and honestly I just needed a space I had a lot of anxiety getting back into acting I think I just had this um if I'm to be honest which you know you're very good at the honesty stuff I had I remember having a panic attack in high school during a show and I thought it was an asthma attack and it was a panic attack. Oh, it's the worst. You couldn't breathe and you're like. I couldn't breathe that.

And I didn't know what was happening. And then after that, I think that was a large part of not wanting to invest in acting in college. In addition to not knowing I could make a career out of it. And so after college, I was like, I don't know if i'm ready to like make the jump so then i started doing the virginia just to get back on stage just to kind of see if you know i could get past this anxiety what was it like before you went out there like before the show or when did it happen like how it was during a show little abner during a high school show during a during a song jubilation t corn pone and i just all

of a sudden couldn't breathe and i remember rushing off stage to get my inhaler taking it and not working and being like what's going on with my body yeah and then i remember also in college having panic attacks i remember being on this bus going to this retreat and having this feeling of like wait we're in a bus in the mountains if i have something happens there's no place to go like that kind of like neurosis and at that time panic attacks were not you know talked about no one really knew what was going on um no kind of you know specific like since then i've been able to do a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy kind of stuff which i'm really love but but not the breathe in the bag thing?

No, back then they were like, what's going on? And so it was just so much fear because you're like, wait, I know, because you'd always get like, you're fine. Like there's nothing wrong with you. And you're like, okay, but my body feels like it's shutting down. I went to the doctor a lot in college.

Oh yeah. And it was just, it's awful my mind was always my hands and feet are tingling tingling yeah and also your vision gets very narrow yeah blurry you never feel like you're gonna get over that breath oh it's the worst so i haven't had the breathing one in a while man i'm so grateful for therapy anyway so after that i didn't i still wanted to do this acting thing but just this anxiety was keeping me from it. But it sounds like you had anxiety about everything. But it usually was triggered by your brain getting into an existential dread mode?

I think if I'm honest, it was my anxiety at the end of high school, in college. You can temper and keep those situations anxiety at a level yeah and then your body says i gotta react to this yeah you know this is you're keeping a lid on stuff that you can't keep a lid on anymore and your body starts you know bubbling over and that's what was happening mentally i think mentally family stuff you know stuff, just kind of like, you know, there's addiction in my family, all this kind of stuff. And just like, you know, different stuff that you just kind of, you can kind of keep a happy face on and then your body starts reacting to it.

Oh, so you grew up like, you know, you were the kid who was, you know, keeping it all together. Yeah. I think kind of like um yeah and trying to make everybody happy yes and very um yeah even knowing that things were not right yeah yeah which a lot of you know a lot of kids do of course yeah you know there's like you know there's only a couple ways to go with that either you become you know an addict or whatever or you're the other guy hey Hey, everybody.

And I was very much the performer. Right, right. And I was good at it. Like, you become all things to all people. Yeah. I just talked to John Goodman about this. Really? Yes.

Very, very similar trip. Real people-pleasing, very hard on himself. Sure. Still. And the crazy, the cool thing about life as you know is kid deals with anxiety all things to all people it's neat how shit can turn into uh productive things but this is exact but this yeah for sure but this is exactly what i'm talking about if you don't have that if if whatever it is you you know, and you can be vague about it to

pretend whatever. Sure, sure. But I mean, whatever it is, you're not getting the sort of closure, you know, the sort of consistent kind of grounded closure you need from the parents, right? So your brain's just sort of like, well, why am I uncomfortable then? It can't be them. And, you know, you've got to manage. Yeah.

And they're, you know, they're doing their yeah and they're you know they're doing their best because they they they you know everybody they didn't have the foundation they needed sure um but yeah it's at that but when you're a kid yeah exactly you don't you can't understand that you don't understand that you don't have the tools to know how to manage it yeah all you know is survival mode yeah and you will um and when you get the kind of gratification of whether it be an audience or hey if i'm this way to this person they're gonna get they're gonna like me i mean they're also the the biggest assholes yeah from high school yeah and yet still wanting them to like me i know it's like a dog returning to its vomit you're like what is going on going back to

the scene of the crime yeah it's just reenacted over but that's the level of need where you're just like oh my god if you like me then maybe i'll have you know all that kind of crazy figure out what it is like there's something about charming monsters yeah that's a great way to put it yeah you know it makes you feel safe for a minute. But like it's- And even in this business, you know, it's just- Oh, dude, I know. There's that sense of subconsciously going, oh, if that person sees me a certain way, and then you have to step away and go, wow, why am I giving this person power?

Oh, this is, it all comes back to childhood. Sure. You know? And also like you start to realize, and i realized late but i do realize it that like all these people are fucking broken weirdos themselves we're all broken i know and it's just sort of like in that moment where you're thinking i need approval like you know what you don't see them as a person anymore like there's some other thing going on there's oh yeah there's some i you know like there's a huge transference happening yeah Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't always understand it.

But as a funny person, you know, like in high school, like, you know, you can sort of broker, you know, between all clicks because you're funny. But there's always that kind of weird moment where I started to feel, which is, you know, like, all right, so I got all these monsters laughing. But it still feels like, you know, I'm just one line away from getting my ass kicked. I've got all these monsters laughing. Oh, that's so good. That is so good. And in the moment, you're like, I got the monsters laughing. I got them.

Or at least I got the monsters to invite me to their party. Right. It's like, why? And then across the board, I even do this, you know this as a parent, I'm sure, or I'll probably do this more, but like, why do you want to be at that monstrous party? I don't want to be at the monstrous party. I want to be invited to the monstrous party. Right, right, right.

You know? It's like, I want to be accepted by the monsters. But it's because we think the monsters have their shit together more than we do somehow. At least they're just monsters. They don't think about the sad kid. No, yeah. And they're in survival mode as well i guess but it seems like you know it just seems a lot more together yeah well i mean cut to everybody's instagram with a together picture and nobody's together oh it's the worst what it's like just a never-ending cry for help on all platforms i can't fucking take it like you know I know people that post like nine Instagrams a day.

I'm like, dude, this is getting sad. It's getting... And it's like, it's, yeah, it's a highlight reel. I mean, I'm on it myself. I'm on it, but like I forget to do it. When you pull away a little bit and you start to look at the people you know and how much they're posting, they're like, are you doing anything with your life?

I mean, are all you thinking about is the next tweet or the next thing? Well, yeah. I mean, I'll be in conversations with someone and be thinking about the next thing. Yeah, of course. I got to put that up there. That would be good. Or just like what I'm doing next. Yeah.

I'm not in this conversation. You know what? Now I feel like I am. But how do you survive? Look, I was a drug guy where I would create sort of identities for myself involuntarily. Yeah. But once it became the angry drunk guy that lasted a good long time. Yeah.

But there was definitely different sort of, you know, hair and facial hair configurations. Yeah. Outfits like but I really if you watch my history on Conan O'Brien, you know, I there was you can just see a history of outfits of a guy who never quite landed on it on a sure yeah yeah but like how did you get through I love that I love that question because I think I medicated with identities I think I I think I in high school I had my own like um quirky funny at high school I was one person at the theater I was one person and again you know nobody's fault but my own. I was just creating something.

And then I went to this Baptist school. Yeah. And if I'm honest, I came into that going, all right, I'm going to step into this Southern, khaki-wearing Christian man. Yeah. And that'll be my identity. And I did for four years. Yeah. And that'll be my identity.

And I did for four years. Yeah. And honestly, I think God had, you know, he probably, you know, my faith is very important to me. And I think through that, he began to reveal himself to me. And I was like, you know, it's like I could maintain that kind of facade for so long. And then I just, the shit fell apart. And I was like, I'm a disaster. And that's where God, my higher power stepped in.

And it's like, I'm here for your disaster. I'm not here for this cookie cutter, Christian image, you know, pastel shirt wearing, whatever. Oh yeah.

And he stepped in, you know, and he let you off the hook. Totally. And he, and he still lets me off the hook, but it's like, I'm Steven,

you know, even moving to la yeah we i came from new york and i'd never been on a studio a lot i'd never had that much free food in my life you know i was just like what's going on and then i kind of stepped in to that identity and then the then i realized okay let me break that down and just try to be more myself and all that kind of stuff. It's hard. Like, you can hear me on this show. I mean, if I talk to, like, if I'm talking to Mel Brooks, I will become old and Jewish within minutes.

Look, I mean, because to get Mel Brooks to like you, there's that part in us that's, I mean, I even probably walk away from this going, well, I don't know. Was that good? Did Mark like me? He's such a cool guy. He's funny.

He's smart. You know, it's like, I wonder what he's thinking about me. You know, everybody plays that narrative in their head. Do they? Yes. I think if we're, maybe, you know, I can't say everybody, but it's like most of the people I know, there's always these certain figures in their life that they really want to be approved by, they want to be seen by,

and they will gravitate towards those, you know. It's so much, I fight it now though. Like I will not, like there are sometimes, like I had a hostess say this thing the other night, you know, Flea has that. And like, you know, those guys, the Chili Peppers, they're like a whole other level of like, you know,a has that and like you know those guys the chili peppers they're like a whole other level of like you know alphas you know not your classic jock monsters but you know jock with the rock and roll like there's a whole bunch of layers to it and every time i've met anthony

kiedis i i turn into a high school kid i'm like hey what's hey hi like i'm fighting totally and it's not even that I love the guy or that, like, I love the music, but he's just one of those dudes where I just turn into, like, such a fucking, you know, like, insecure.

Even though your soul wants to be grounded, wants to be normal around him, wants to be organic. Yeah, he's just, it's, yeah. It's like, it's a fucking nightmare

and I hate him for it. Yeah. And I mean, he's probably, has been around, he's probably around a ton of people like that. He doesn't give a shit. Like, he doesn't, like, you know, I think that's- Oh, he's got his own shit,'s probably around a ton of people like that give

a shit like he doesn't like oh he's got his own shit but i'm sure of course he wrote a whole book about it you can see it's all out in the open but we're different types of dudes yes and they're like and there is sort of like you know i don't buy into the whole alpha beta myth but like i do buy into like you know there are dudes that gravitate to a certain thing they've got their own sensitivities they're dealing with their problems in a certain way yeah but there is a kind of like for some reason when somebody is effectively you know uh confident and cool is i really think is what it comes down to is this sort of like how is he so confident and cool it's a confidence thing now that i really think about it like you know he's not sitting there going like am i okay you know you know is he not though maybe i don't see it i mean he probably is i think everybody is

i guess but this is so much work to because i mean not to get mad at him but it's like if you really sit down and go oh we're spinning on a planet i get it like this is no but no but here's the thing why this is we are all trying to pretend, live a normal on Earth, you know, managing life, knowing that we're going to die in how many years. It's like everybody to an extent is walking around trying to maintain some kind of a normal amidst a crazy uncertainty. But also, right, exactly. And denial of that. Most of what we do is to aid in the denial of that uncertainty. Sure.

of that most most of what we do is to aid in the denial of that uncertainty and the the the the kind of inevitability of our our our mortality yeah like i i found myself on stage you know talking about like you know having being on statins you know for my for my cholesterol yeah and like right when you bring up stuff like that publicly like i got a little stuff in my heart and i'm on the statins i can feel the room go and i'm like you all have heart disease yeah every one of you if you don't have heart disease you're now you're gonna have cancer yeah one of the other something is going to happen yeah this is not the greatest thing for the middle of a comedy show i'm just want to make sure we all know we're dying but what a wake up like what i'm like yeah maybe with that perspective maybe i'll treat somebody else a little different.

Well, I'm trying to integrate and accept the inevitability. So, all right. So you go to New York, a Christian khaki wearing pink. I left the khakis behind. But yeah, I went to in 1995, moved to New York, didn't know anybody. Just to be an actor? Just to pursue acting, yeah. Were you going to do a class?

I don't think I was at a place where I was like, I'm an actor. I was like, all right, I'm going to try this out, pursue it. I didn't know if I could label myself. But you moved out of the Southern Jesus thing. Yes, yeah. Yes, Jesus was still with me, but it's like I moved out of that world. Jesus came, but not the pants. Yes, exactly.

So, and I didn't know anybody my first i remember i don't know if you remember backstage yeah yeah sure the paper the paper i looked at backstage i my first show was shakespeare in the parking lot i did tamiya the shrew in a parking lot in the east village um i i started you know every job under the sun i I went from sublet to sublet. But then I kind of started doing commercials. But no classes. I did do classes. The first class I did, it was a two-year program.

I won't say the name. Why? Was that bad? Well, the teacher was one of those kind of arrogant drama teachers that everybody's walking on eggshells around. Who? I'm not going to say his name. Maybe I was taking the class you might have we'll talk off air but it's like i don't want to go around no he's not still around i don't know i don't want to do that all right but like he you know he was a good teacher but he didn't create a very safe space

to me everybody was like oh god i want him to like me and me. Like, look at me, look at me. And so then I went to the Barrow Group and they, to me, I'd come from this place that everything was like, oh my gosh, your work is amazing. Your work, like Tony, find your, everything was so intense. And the Barrow Group brought back this idea of play. What was the Barrow Group?

This just great theater program that Seth Barish and his wife created seth barish i know that name yeah he directed michael burbiglia yeah yeah yeah and just like it just kind of let go of this whole heavy work mentality that this a lot of these right right the old failed method guy and his cult yeah and not to say that i mean yes it is work but it was nice to reintroduce this idea of play and hey like let's let go of a lot of stuff like what was the process like i think it was just like um because like the other guy was probably just what scene studies and monologues and you'd get a partner in the class just that but even the communication of it just like find

it and where are you and it's like oh you're not here and you need to be here and it's just all this kind of like good god i'm just trying to and rather than like hey let's just let stuff go and just kind of try to be in the be there and and this is like your playground and you're stepping into this character you're stepping in the story um just kind of like see what happens you know and and um also he they did one technique which i always appreciated like if i was doing a monologue they were like all right let's have a let's just have a conversation right before you start yeah and it was like we would just have a conversation and then you go into the monologue Oh rather than like

I'm stepping into a monologue I'm my all the sudden my speech changes I get stiff you know it's like he's just kind of like hey let's just organically get into it right so it's interesting though because it seems from looking at the work, you know, you weren't a comedy guy per se. No, I wasn't. I did sketch comedy in New York, but- With who?

I was never, this group called King Baby and it was with this guy named Todd Wilkerson, Susan Isaacson, at the time Jeannie Noth, who's now Jeannie Gaffigan, Jim Gaffigan's wife. Oh, yeah, yeah. And we just did, we did sketches, and it was really fun. Oh, you were with the- But I never did improv or anything like that.

No stand-up. No stand-up. But you just were going to be an actor. Yeah, I was really, and I did mainly commercials. I was kind of the guy, my type was like, he's kind of checked out. Did you do a big commercial? I did a commercial, the Volkswagen Mr. Roboto one.

And I just, I really enjoyed it because the commercials I did were pretty funny. Yeah. And, you know, I wasn't just standing behind a side of car. Yeah. They were funny. And so I really enjoyed it. And when did you, what was the first break?

In 2003. It took me many years to find an agent and or somebody to send me out for TV and film because I was kind of labeled a commercial actor oh so like that was your thing yeah but those guys always have a run like you know that you're the guy in the car all the commercials for a year or two yeah and I was that's it very grateful for that r because I could knock off some of those odd jobs. Like which jobs? Man, I temped everywhere. I remember passing out flyers in Bryant Park a lot.

I cater-waitered. I actually really liked cater-waiting because I hated waiting tables because people got so obnoxious about food. But cater-waiting, you just put the same food down and you didn't have to talk to the people. Yeah. And you'd get like 20 bucks an hour. These are actor jobs.

Yeah, they're actor jobs. And you're doing theater all the way through? Yeah, like showcases and stuff you found in back, not like off-Broadway or Broadway stuff, but mainly commercials. And then 2003, years before that, a couple managers and agents were kind enough to start sending me out people i met through commercials yeah and then the audition for rest of development came around

and i remember reading the script and being like oh i really like this script yeah because it reminded me of christopher guest stuff like i loved christopher guest sure and got a call back and then um i remember i shot the pilot out right when I got the call back. I flew out to LA, shot the pilot. And then I have a specific memory of running out of underwear. And I had to go to Old Navy to get underwear. And that's literally one of the only memories I have. Which is obviously trauma related.

But I don't remember because I think I was so detached of just all the, you know, I was so overwhelmed. Yeah, I have. Yeah, it's weird that those are the memories. Oh, yeah. I don't have underwear. I don't have enough underwear. I need to go to, where's an Old Navy? That's my focus.

I need to find an Old Navy. But you know what I've learned over time with myself is that that stuff is grounding, dude. Uh-huh. You know, that's an attempt at, you know, sort of like taking like taking care of yourself yeah and i remember going while we were shooting the pilot i remember specifically going to dinner with michael sarah and his mother to like i think we went to like a cheesecake factory sure and i didn't really know anybody and i was just like just remember i'm sitting in the cheesecake i'd be like okay and having a conversation about kind of like this is crazy and michael was new and i was new and his mom linda was really sweet and like those kind of i have those kind of pockets

of memories yeah and so but had you done some film stuff before that i did like little bits on the sopranos i was a nurse oncologist on the Sopranos, and I was a photographer's assistant on Sex and the City named Tiger. Now, did you find, so before Arrested Development, you didn't do any kind of, like you didn't seem to have enough screen time to do any real character work. Yeah, mainly that and class. Like I would kind of do that kind of stuff in class. Yeah.

Because as time went on, even after Arrested Development, it seems like you were able, you can play serious. You can do it. Do you, and this isn't a question that I was mad at myself for not asking John Goodman in the same way, given that,

you know, being hard on himself and having this anxiety, but being great. Yeah. Is there, outside of getting a laugh or outside of like is there a tremendous amount of relief involved in creating a character or getting lost in a character or being is it one of because i find with stand-up it's really one of the only places i can

be actively present because i don't have a choice and if i'm not present there i'm in trouble so like when you're acting or lost in something and i know tv works different because it's a lot of stopping and starting but you do have to be present and engage you do have to be present those moments if i'm honest are few and far between because if i get into a rhythm like with julia on veep or something like that when i got into those i definitely would get lost in that but But for the most part in TV, I'm very aware of like the stopping and the starting, all the crew. I would say I was,

I just did this thing, this blacklist reading on Saturday night and we read a script. And being on stage, I can relate to like your standup. There is, it really forces you to be present and ride that wave is there really

is a it's a joy of being present on stage that i i miss yeah because you can feel the audience you can feel the audience i'm doing a play in san francisco in january called wakey wakey and i'm both terrified but really looking forward to that kind of those moments again. Where did that come from? It's a play this guy named Willie Eno directed. It premiered in New York. Willie Eno, that guy. Yeah, I know that guy.

He's really gifted. And they did a play with Michael Emerson in New York years ago. And they wanted to bring it to the American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco and asked if I would do it. Yeah. Tim Simons knew Willie Eno really well, who was on Veep. And I was, you know, at first I was like, oh, I haven't done theater in so long, but I really love it.

Like, I really love it, and I'm just kind of taking it day to day. I'm excited, but I'm just like, oh, okay. You're in rehearsals? I start the day after Christmas. And is it a comedy? It's a, yeah, both. And it's practically a one-man show.

There's a character, a nurse character that comes in halfway through. And the one-man show would be you. Yeah. And now, obviously working with that crew on Arrested Development, that was, you guys became kind of a family a bit, right? Over time.

I came up with Dave, I know Dave really well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love David Cross. He's a very sweet man. Very. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If he lets you in, he's very sweet. He's a very sweet man.

He's a father now. It's crazy. Yeah. I used to, like back in the day, like when I was in between houses when we were doing comedy in Cambridge, I used to stay at his, like I didn't have a house for some

reason and I was sleeping on their couch. He lived with three other guys, but when he was at his girlfriend's, I could sleep in his bed. I mean, like I have a real history with Dave. And we were, when we were shooting, I guess this last season for Arrested, I was, I held his baby on set and she's a sweet little angel. Him and Amber, Amber Tamblyn. Amber Tamblyn. Yeah, I'm so surprised, you know, because he was, I don't, I have not talked to him enough as a father. I haven't seen him in a while, but he's- But I'm sure it softened him. It's impossible not to.

Yeah, I don't have any of the kids. That's one thing, after Arrested, I had my daughter in 2006 after it was canceled, and one big, um, way in for this whole kind of waking up to being present thing for me was having a daughter. Cause it's like, you had to keep them alive.

So I was like, I gotta, I gotta be present here. Yeah. Well, you had a wife too. We have a wife. Yes.

I had a wife, but it was just like when you're with her, it's like, you can't be checked out. Oh yeah. Right. You don't want to drop them or put them on the stove. Yeah. That's a, that's a good call.

When did you get married, in New York? I got married in 2003, the same year the show got picked up. So 10 days before we got married, the show got picked up. And where'd you know that girl from, that lady, that woman? At this church, there's this group that i my friend kathy karbowsky and i started um called the haven where's that kind of sounds like a cult but um in new york really we had it was kind of a lot of people whose faith was important to them artists yeah and we would just kind of both encourage each other see each other's work and then also we would do a lot of

we would try to plan a lot of service projects just to kind of get our eyes off ourselves. Help the community kind of thing? Help the community and like, you know, in this business, you're selling yourself. So just to force you to get your eyes off yourself. Like what kind of service? We would make apple pies for Thanksgiving

for this shelter. Is it the allergies kicking in? No, I'm okay. I'm good with water. As my throat slowly starts closing on the microphone. We would make, I remember we would make these Valentine heart wreaths for these people in the hospital with AIDS,

who were affected by AIDS and all these things of just to kind of like, you know, do stuff outside of ourselves. Get out of yourself. Yeah. Because it seems that to be outwardly Christian in our business is not something you hear a lot about. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. You hear a sort of non-specific spirituality.

You hear, you know, atheism or agnosticism. Sure, yeah. But sort of proud Christians who are not weirdos. I would imagine there was sort of like a coistering sort of thing like, okay, we've got us. You know, was that compelled by that? I don't know. I don't remember that.

I mean, I think if I'm growing up, I think the faith community is very much like that. It's like, you know, we huddle down, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's a bummer, because the more, I think with The Haven, there was a recognition of like, we're all a mess, you know, and we, this is, God is a source of strength for us,

but it's, I don't know, the more that you don't own your own mess, I think then you do more set yourself apart of like but like everybody like i think when we own our mess the bridges are created conversations are created you know many people i'm obviously throughout my business i know many people in different faiths and different beliefs i think if you're not proselytizing sure or you don't think you know better than others or you're not consumed by delusional prophecy. And I would even say proselytizing is like,

I mean, if somebody asks my story, it's who I am, so I love to talk about it. But when there's an agenda attached to that story, I think that's when the proselytizing kicks in. Right, right, right. So your relationship with Jesus has evolved and changed over the years. Yeah, and it's, yeah, I mean, it's for me, it is I knowing that he is with me and sees a bigger picture than I do.

Yeah. His ways are higher than my ways. Right. I fall apart with him. He encourages me, I mean, to forgive when I don't want to forgive for my own healing. I think the challenge, and I get it, is everybody has such a different history with faith. And so when someone hears when my faith is important to me, I understand that's colored by everybody's different experience to that. And like that's colored by everybody's different experience to that.

And even, you know, it is frustrating. You know, you look at the political environment and how the faith community is attached to Trump. It's challenging because I'm like, hey, the faith I, Jesus I follow says the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That's the fruit of somebody following God. Yeah. And when I don't see one of those in a figure that my community is attached to, it's upsetting. I'm saying I'm working on two or three of those

on a good day, you know, but when it's hard to not find one of those and my community is attached to that. And then that gets... There's a schism within the community, I think, to that. And I understand, and then that gets- There's a schism within the community, I think, isn't there?

I mean, there's definitely two camps. Oh, there's definitely two camps, but it's something that's when you, I kind of fall back. I don't, I think the older you get,

I don't know if you're like this, I don't know people's story. I don't know, I can't speak into why somebody is following that man. I can't, I don't know their journey.

I know for me, it's tricky. Not even tricky, I can't. But, and I have questions, but I don't know. I think the older I get, I'm like, I can't put out their narrative of why they're doing that. Right. But I know for me, that's not a figure that I want to follow. Why you're not.

You know why. Yeah, yeah. And within the faith umbrella. Within the faith umbrella. It's cool. And I'm sure on some policy level as well. Because, yeah, and it's, yes, 100%. And it's also everybody, they're, well, I don't want to go on a tangent, but it's like there's no bridges of conversation being

built between these two sides right and i don't within the faith community or within republicans and democrats i think with publicans delegates and the faith yeah i think it's like nobody everybody is so terrified to um for fear if they give an inch then the other person is they're gonna you know take something like so, so. Yeah, it's become like sports. Nobody wants to just talk and engage. And I hope that I can engage, you know. I mean, I have family members that are on that other side. Yeah, sure. And, you know, we're forced, you know, we engage and you have to engage.

And just to hear where they're coming from. Does it get ugly? Just to hear where they're coming from. Does it get ugly? There's things you avoid, but I have to see the whole person rather than the things that they are supporting. Isn't that weird when you like somebody and you're like,

I know if I just say one sentence, it's going to be a problem. Yeah, it is. And is it worth? And to me, it's for peace and for a bigger conversation. Is it worth saying that sentence? Because here's the fact, and you know this as well as I do, I'm not going to change anybody's mind. Something does, though, sometimes. I don't know. If I say stuff, I don't know if I'm changing anybody's mind. All we're doing is just screaming but i'm not saying that we we can change somebody's mind necessarily but you know you read about or hear about these moments i know

in my own heart my own moments where you've you've held hard and fast to something because of your own fear resentment or or injury sure and then like some weird passing event melts it away like something happens where you see things totally different in a moment. But isn't that your own personal experience of changing that mindset? Well, yeah. Rather than something that's been told to you?

Of course, but I mean, I just, you read about these moments of, you know, racists, you know, all of a sudden having a come to Jesus

moment around the fault of how they're seeing it. Yeah. You know, and like you can't manufacture those things, but they do happen.

There are sort of weird things. I know a lot of people right now have volunteered for a brain fucking that they're not gonna recover from. But there are moments that happen on a one-on-one human level that I think really kind of like change people because they all of a sudden,

they can let go of their burden. But with that, that takes a dropping of the guard on both sides. Sure, yeah. For them to each be vulnerable enough to be open to somebody else hearing this. I can't force someone to be open to what I'm saying. Of course. They have to make that choice themselves. Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes it's just a window. Hey, look, they're crying. I got an opportunity. Yeah, sure. Hey, look, they're crying. I got an opportunity. Yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. Did you find that doing Veep sort of gave you at least proximity-wise? You're not saying that you were involved in a very thorough and intelligent satire of our political system. Was that somehow, did that feel like you were doing something?

Did that feel like service? Yeah, I mean, it changed. Like I remember when I was doing Veep, I kind of loved, I love showing a slice of life, a little real slice of life of what might be happening behind the scenes rather than all we hear is the perfect speeches.

But like Washington- Not anymore. Not anymore. But like Washington- Not anymore. Not anymore. But like, it's like, you know, these people are, it's pressure cookers for massive decisions in the world. So, you know, behind the scenes, people were losing their minds and being like, was that right?

I don't know. Did I say the right thing? So I liked showing that window of like the humanity behind the curtain. Right, right. And then as I progressed, it was like, okay, now there's already a satire happening on CNN. Right, right.

You know, it was a very, and then it kind of just became about ego and, you know, I don't know, I don't know. It becomes impossible to parody now because even the most extreme satire is sort of like you're nostalgic for that amount of chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least there was an order to that chaos.

There was a respect for the institution. However, I will say one, not to make it into a moral tale. That's all right. Julie always made fun of me for this, but I think the big gratification I get from Veep, from doing Veep,

is to me it's a beautiful picture of you reap what you sow because Selina Meyer, she sowed her whole life, selfishness, arrogance, stabbing people in the back, all for herself and she reaped isolation. She reaped a life of sadness and everybody left her. And here's the deal, when you sow that, that is what will happen and that's a huge bummer.

Like that's your legacy. Right. And that's a bummer. Yeah, yeah. And that is the way humanity works in a way. And again, I'm speaking from a place, I'm not perfect. I've had entitled moments.

I've had arrogant moments. But I like, I hopefully am more aware of my, you know, or just, you know, having that awareness of like, hey, maybe that's not the best choice to treat someone. Like, let me say the right thing here. Let me be kind here. Let me, you know, it's like, because that does reap a different fruit. So your faith and the principles of it, you know, inform those moments of being present, like in your times of anxiety, like as somebody who has a faith, you know, and you also struggle

with this constant, you know, self-talk that's negative. Yeah, sure, sure. That like, I would assume that at some point the relationship with God has got to step in there somehow. It does. And I was just talking to a friend of mine this morning about, we were talking about our church that we go to.

And my favorite thing, this is what I love also about the Quaker church, they allow for these moments of silence. You're in the Quaker church now? No, I'm not now, but this is what I love about the Quaker services. They have these times of just silence where you're sitting and just quiet. And one of my favorite things when I go to the church I go to is just sitting before everybody goes, they're just sitting in the pews and knowing I'm not alone. And it's that sense of how he sees me, um, how he created me, um, just feeling, um, safe. Yeah. And it's, and when having that foundation, um, it, it really strengthens me. And you grew up with it all the way through or did it come? I think, yeah, I did.

I did. It was, it was not, um, I, for lack of a better way of saying, like a personal faith. It was more of a social faith. It was like going to church. But it was always there. It was always there, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, the relationship with Julia and the comedic dynamic, how did it start and how did it evolve over the arc of the thing? Because, like, it's so unique, that pairing, that comedy team of you and her.

It seems like it is so natural and so honestly symbiotic. How did it start? Oh, man. It's hard to put into words because it was such a joyful experience for me. I think she's one of the best comedic actresses ever. She's amazing. And she's also, I was in such close proximity to her all the time. I grabbed all the subtlety that she gave. Yeah. I think it was, I don't know, we kind of, on a very personal level, we became very good

friends. Oh, you did? Yeah. And so I think it's that really, there was a ground, there was a respect there, there was a value for each other um there was a there was a trust where if you know you throw something out you you know that they're gonna throw it back and also if something didn't sit right right if it was like yeah this doesn't feel right it wasn't met with like no it's fine it's like it's like no let's talk about it let's figure let's get to the place where you feel comfortable and just looking at the looking at the the description of the characters, she was such the mouth. And I was described as a bitchy mime on the show. So I couldn't even, I didn't even have a verbal. I was all nonverbal.

In the script originally. Just like Gary would say sometimes like moans or sounds. And he was all facial expressions because she wouldn't let me speak. Right. So it was this really fun, like I had to create a language behind her to be able to communicate. And then she just, I don't know, just that energy of her putting me down and me worshiping her, having a blindness to the way she treated me. I just, it's like to step in, to know that's not your life and to step into that kind of dysfunction on a play way is so much fun.

Like in life, because as you know, the base of comedy is very sad. Like you look at the family of arrest development, you look at the people in VEAP, they're atrocious human beings. But it's to step into that kind of dysfunction and to play in it and to give yourself that permission, it's just nothing better.

Yeah. And so you guys were friends, so you were with her through the health crisis and everything yeah she's doing okay she's doing great oh she's really doing great and she man she has a perseverance to her that is really uh just really impressive yeah i love her i can't i don't know anybody who is as consistently she's been on here right yeah yeah consistently funny before she got the cancer though i haven't talked to her since then yeah but uh so consistently and so on purposely funny than her yeah maybe feral will feral yeah do it as well but and i think she takes every opportunity like she didn't just uh when a script came or uh whatever she would look at and sometimes we would stop and she's like yeah this doesn't um we need to mush this up like this this it's always that sense and her and i when we would get on set i mean the writers

dave and all them work so hard but it was like okay how can we bump this up physically so like you drop your coat i'll catch it you know you do this right how can we bring some physicality into this always amp it up even when she was at award shows it was like if i if i do win or if i'm presenting how can i make this the funniest thing you know it's great physical comic so it's all thought out you guys would sit there and orchestrate oh yeah always thought it had to be yeah because it was a very organized chaos there was one time i don't remember what it was but she was at a presidential she had not been president anymore and she was at a presidential museum and there was a president's desk behind these ropes and she goes and sits behind the desk. But she said, keep a watch out that nobody's looking.

And then somebody came, we had to jump over the banister and then I had to catch her right before she fell on the floor. Right. And it looked very chaotic, but you really have to choreograph that kind of stuff. Sure. Oh, yeah. And you won two Emmys for this.

I know, isn't that nuts? That was really surprising. But did you feel good? Yeah. And you won two Emmys for this. I know. Isn't that nuts? That was really surprising. But did you feel good? Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's still very surreal to me. I remember being nominated for the first time when I was and just being like, what the hell? And that excitement, but then that terror of like, oh God, it felt pressure. And I remember this therapist I was working with really encouraged me to be like, hey, I know you want to check out during this,

or you want to minimize it just to get through it because it seems so larger than life. Minimizing to get through. Yeah. Because it seemed too much energy. So I wanted to, I think just in life, if there's two highs or two lows, you want to neutralize it because it's too much energy. So like I wanted to, I think just in life, like if there's two highs or two lows, you want to neutralize it because it's too much. And he was like, I really want you to breathe and I want you to look around and I want you to, this is where I am and embrace it.

And you know, since I did that, I remember it. That's great. Well, I think all those things you were just saying too about like whatever you're thinking about, like leveling it. I think a lot of it is just saying too about whatever you're thinking about, like leveling it, I think a lot of it is to try to get ahead of it, control-wise. Get ahead of it.

Because when you know, because of life and growing up, some things weren't safe, didn't feel safe. And so you wanted to try to, how can I peacemake? How can I stabilize the social ratio? How can I take anything?

Yes, yes. I'll just make the most negative projection so I can deal with that in my head and then I'm ready. Yeah, yeah. And I don't want to get too excited because you don't know what's around the corner. So it's like I got to stabilize it.

Yeah. They take it away from me. It drops on my foot. Yeah. Totally. You still do a lot of like, because you're so identified with comedy, you still do a lot of like, you know, it's because you're so identified

with comedy, but you do a lot of serious parts. So what, what do you, you've done a lot of things, but what, what, what are you hoping for now?

I mean, these animated projects are great. What is Forky's, ask a question. I got the, I saw the title, but I did not get the thing. Yeah.

So this character I did in Toy Story, Forky, he's a, he's a, a sp thing. Yeah, so this character I did in Toy Story, Forky, he's a spork that's called Forky because his little girl calls him a fork. And he doesn't understand anything about the universe, and he just asks a lot of questions. And Toy Story was a really sweet story

because Woody comes along, and the spork is like, listen, I'm here to help people eat chili and then I'm going to the trash. That's my route. Yeah. And Woody's like, no, you're made for more than that. You're made to be loved and to love.

Yeah. And so now this little web series, he just goes around and asks a lot of questions. He's like, what's cheese? What's love? What's a friend? All that stuff. So it's an educational kid thing.

Yeah, and just in typical Pixar fashion, just very well done. Very well done. Well, that's great. And what's your level of service these days uh like do you go talk to the kids do you do I do any of that kind of stuff I do actually really I just talked to Pepperdine I really enjoy talking to students about because you and I have had interesting experiences and you know I did get my dream and I did learn a lot of lessons about you know being present yeah and also the whole idea of fame i like to talk about you know it's um i think we

all want to be known and we look at fame as the ultimate being known but actually if you're known by people who love you and that's all the known you're ever going to need it's better just because it's not fame can be very isolating and all this kind of stuff. So, but I think our society is still like, how many Instagram followers do you have? How famous are you? But it's like, it's actually,

fame is actually the opposite of what people, it's the opposite of being known. Yeah. Or being loved sometimes. And being loved. And I love talking about that and, you know,

there's this, anyways, I, anytime I can help out, there's this great organization called International Justice Mission that fights human trafficking. Oh, great. I just love any time to give a voice to them because it's very easy to give a voice that are, you know, just in our little world of stuff that's right.

But like globally what's going on and children being trafficked and it's horrific. And we just don't know about it. Yeah. You know, or we turn a blind eye to it. Sure. It's hard to, yeah. We're so consumed with all the shit coming out of us, at us on a day-to-day basis. It's hard to know.

And then when you do know, you're like, oh my God. Yeah. And that was, that made me think of, I was telling this story the other day, but it's like, even in anxiety. Yeah. When you can get your eyes off yourself it is such a gift because i i was years ago also when i was doing conan i was about to

step out and i felt the wave of panic come over me and i was like oh god i have a choice here i'm either gonna bolt or do something and there was these two guys standing by the curtain and i just started asking them questions i was like where are you How long have you been doing this? How long have you been a curtain guy? How long have you been a curtain guy? Just something. And then the curtains open and I walked out and it's like, anytime, it's such a gift to get your eyes off yourself because you just live in this headspace. Believe me. Why do you think I do this show? I know. And that's, I was doing somebody else's podcast and I was telling them what a gift, not only to you, but in addition to hearing other stories, but man, just to get your eyes. What a gift to do that.

Get out of yourself. Those guys at the curtain on Conan, I had a thing with them. Because every time I'd be standing there, I'd always look at the one guy, forget his name, and go, I got nothing. So it became this thing. I'd go there, and he'd go, what do you got? Nothing. Got nothing. so like it became this thing like i'd go there you go what do you got like nothing got nothing but what a what wouldn't it be a cool documentary to tape that section right before somebody walks

out how people deal and manage anxiety yeah that moment can i get a water yeah can i get a water or just pace or just start talking or you know fixing clothes or just like something let me see the shit yeah yeah yeah yeah oh okay okay yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I understand when you hear those like older actors have all the cards on the walls just to remember because it's like, you know, you just, the older you get, things just kind of leave you.

That's for sure. I don't even know where we started with this thing. Yeah. Exactly. It was good talking to you though, man. Really good talking to you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming that was tony hale that was a i i found that to be a very engaging and interesting

conversation about a lot of things faith anxiety parents i think you hear the depth great what a great guy uh he is uh currently the voice of forky in the show forky asks a question for the new disney plus streaming service that launches tomorrow he also has a animated show that he co-created on netflix called archibald's next big thing i was on there i'm the hermit crab for an episode arrested development veep any other things that you love Tonya I was very happy to talk to him and now I will play my Stratocaster through the old amp and the Echoplex

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