WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1071 - Lili Taylor

Episode Date: November 14, 2019

Actress Lili Taylor and Marc quickly realize how much they have in common, like their nearly 50 combined years of sobriety, their similar stories about parents struggling with mental illness, and their search for belonging in New York City when they were younger. Lili tells Marc what it was like to be a central figure in the independent film community of the 1990s, but that was only a short moment in the first part of her life. The question Lili’s been asking herself lately is, Am I up to the task of the next part of my life? She may have found her answer in bird watching. This episode is sponsored by Zoro.com, SimpliSafe, and Stance. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening it's mark maron uh it's me mark mark maron mark i run this place i i own the

situation i am the proprietor of the thing that you're listening to wtf the podcast this is it uh as some of you can tell the audio might be slightly different maybe you can't tell i don't know who you are what your ears are it's all relative to what you put in your head you know it's the same with stereo equipment he said switching subjects for no reason transitioning into something that was spontaneous and just came out of nowhere when people buy stereo equipment they're like is it good is it a great system any system you buy is only as good as your fucking ears are man seriously it's like what you know it's how how old are your dumb ears how how fucked up are your dumb ears have you cleaned your ears that that is actually something you need to do i'm glad we got here because this seems to be the message clean your ears folks just you know i i've heard some doctors not so not not so hot on q-tips other doctors

yeah go for it i say get as deep in there as you can without bursting your eardrum i say just dig in there delicately be careful but if you go deep you can really find out that like maybe you can hear better than you thought maybe your ears are better maybe you should buy that expensive stereo equipment that the only thing that's holding you back from spending too much money on a stereo is a bunch of gunk that you just have had in your head since childhood. I'm in Ireland, as you can tell from the ear dial. That makes no sense. No need for that transition. But I am here.

I'm in Dublin at the moment. I flew in. I'm not alone. I am not alone, folks. Do not think that I'm just wandering the world by myself. I am with somebody. We are having a nice time. I'm just trying to live a private life in a public culture, you know, but we've had a good time so far. Did I mention Lily Taylor is on the show today? Lily Taylor. Yes, that Lily Taylor that all the people my age grew up with in independent movies. One of the original independent movie goddesses, I would say, Lily Taylor is. And I don't know exactly how the interview happened, but I was asked if I wanted to talk to Lily Taylor. And I'm like, of course I wanted to talk to Lily Taylor and I'm like of course I want to talk to Lily Taylor and she's in HBO's new Perry Mason series

which will premiere next year but I think she was just in town and wanted to chat I think we were supposed to do it years ago and now we made it happen and it was quite good actually because she is a singular talent and a singular person and very uh familiar to to me i don't know why uh she's lily taylor you guys but uh so we flew out from los angeles through philadelphia into dublin and the eating has begun it's already happening it took no time the difference between this trip to ireland and other trips I've taken in the past is that I'm planning on going up northwest where the rocks are. This is a rock journey.

We're going to see the cliffs and the rocks on the ocean in the northwest of Ireland in the Greencastle area in County Donegal, which I talked to an Irish guy yesterday who's lending me a guitar, Bren, who promotes comedy here, and he said that place is crazy. He said it's crazy, and I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, it's just crazy.

Crazy, like what? I don't even know what it means. I'm just hoping there's a reasonable supermarket up there so I don't have to spend two weeks eating soda bread and potatoes. And that's not meant as a racist thing or judgmental in any way. It's just that this morning I had two pieces of soda bread, some loosely scrambled eggs, which is something people do in Europe. So I cook them all the way through. Yeah, but it's nice when it's a little gooey. Is it though? Really? It's eggs. Do you really want them raw? I don't know. I mean, I enjoyed it. I'm not judging. I'm going to be

critical about the eggs I just ate, where next to it was the black pudding, which I don't even know what's in that. The brown pudding, I don't even know what's in that. It's a sausage of some sort, but it's got a certain texture. It can't, you know, it's not healthy. Back bacon, I don't even know what that means. It's bacon, but it's different than American bacon because it's better. Because everything here seems more intimate for some reason. Like, you know, the produce seems better because you feel like it's kind of local

and, you know, it's attached to somebody. Like, in between, you know, the produce just moves in between you and the people who picked it, not some boxes and agri-fuck and big business. I don't know. Oh, so I'm at the airport and some guy comes running up to me and this is in this is in the lounge where you're supposed to kind of be cool

you know like just chill man we're in the lounge we made it we made it guy comes running up to me it's like mark maron i'm like yeah and it turns out he's the rep from Shure microphones just beside himself. Like, oh man, I can't believe this is happening. And I'm like, what's up, man? I love Shure microphones. And they're like, he says, we know, we all know. And I'm like, I talk about that SM7 mic all the time. He's like, believe me, people come running up to me at HQ. Marin just said something else about the sm7 like i can't shut up about this but i never asked you or for anything i genuinely i'm obsessed with those mics and the mic i'm talking on right now is a is a beta 58 and like i told him i said i got

two 58s with me i got two beta 58s with me he's like well yeah we do too i'm like what are you doing a podcast no they just have samples i guess but he gave me his card and they were just excited he took a picture with me i guess i'm maybe they're gonna hang it up in some sort of hall of fame at sure hq i'm the sm7 guy good mics good podcast mics yeah but they're expensive. They're real deal radio mics. But whatever, man. I fetishize things, folks. We know that. We know that. Boots. It changes over time.

Think about it. All the things we've been through together. The fetishizing. Remember the jeans? Remember the cast iron pants? Remember the boots? And the mics too? Yeah, a lot of stuff happening. So, but that was exciting. But then we get on the plane and, you know, I've been eating pretty healthy, but like I thought maybe I could hold off one day, but it didn't happen here. It

just, even on the plane, you know, I was obsessing about my glasses because I have a new prescription. I don't know if they're right. And I thought it would destroy my vacation. And I thought it would ruin the vacation of the person I'm with, which I've done many times in my life for one reason or another. I'm not seeing quite properly. We're fucked. It's stupid. There's nothing I can do to correct this situation. I can't get a new pair of glasses i shouldn't have changed the lens before i just left i was pretty obsessed about it and it was sleepy time and everybody was dozing off i was watching a movie eating the bad dinner the chicken and then like the dessert options came and i'm like i don't want dessert you want cheese plate or ice cream, caramel crunch ice cream?

All right, well, I guess, all right, just bring me the cheese plate. And I don't eat that much cheese, but I sat there obsessing about how my glasses were going to ruin my life. I had the cheese plate, and I just fucking shoveled cheese in my face, airplane cheese, not even fucking quality cheese. It was presented as quality cheese, but it's not, even if you're in first class. And then after that, I'm like, God, fuck it god fuck it man i can't see and this is stupid can i have the ice cream too

so she brought the ice cream and i just fucking ate that and uh i went to sleep kind of kind of slept on the plane which you do and i'm laying there and a massive amount of turbulence wakes me up and we're in turbulence. We're over water, which I don't love. And the turbulence is happening, but I'm not moving. There's nothing you can do. And then, you know, the thoughts come, you know, is this the position I want to die in? Should I be sitting up? Will they find me the same way at the bottom of the sea reclining? Or would I like to be upright when that happens just gross and white and decomposed strapped in do I want to be lying down for that at the bottom of the ocean or do I want to be sitting up for that I decided to stay laid down I stayed laying down and then

I started thinking like well this might be happening there's some serious dips going on and I'm not going to sit up for it. But then the other thought came like, this might be it. And kind of glad I ate the ice cream. I think that was a good call. You know, if I'm going down and the terror starts and the screaming starts and the, oh my God, oh my God, like all around you, do you want to be in the middle of that thinking, why didn't I eat that ice cream? Why didn't I eat it? And that that maybe like trying to judge how much time you have before you hit the water and die like could you somehow manage to get to the flight attendant area to get an ice cream like everyone's freaking out we're gonna die we're gonna die you're thinking like, is that ice cream still frozen? How do they keep it frozen on here?

Is there a way I can get it? Just chaos everywhere. Oxygen mask is dropping. People in different angles of recline screaming. But you're just sitting there like somehow managing managing in a twirling spiraling plane. To be eating. A small glass of one scoop of ice cream. Not even a Sunday situation.

But we made it. But. I at least occupied my brain in a healthy way. I finally bought an Irish cap. I've avoided it every time I've come here. But I kind of thought i wanted one and then i realized like even if i never wear it anywhere at home i'm wearing it here i'm gonna be that guy and i got one and it's not i don't think it's a cheesy thing to do i mean this tweed they make it here and you wear it on your head i mean it's you know and i'm old now it's an old man's hat old man's cap matches my

old man head all right look lily taylor i love her and you know we all have loved her at some point in time and she's done some great work and i was happy to talk to her. She is a unique person. Intense. Intense. This is me talking to Lily Taylor. She's going to be in this Perry Mason, this remake of Perry Mason on HBO that's going to be out next year. But I think she just dropped by to check.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy?

If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. mind your business. I don't remember when, like you were going to do this a while back.

I was. Like a long time ago. Yes. Yeah. A few times. Really? Yeah. And you kept getting fucked up but and and i really don't have anything to promote and that's okay right yes okay wonderful yes sure you like to talk

i do you like to talk i like to talk all right i prefer that over over promoting stick in i don't know something but i don't know what you know who i interviewed earlier this guy rick baker do you know rick baker that the makeup artist who did all of them he's like done everything was it fun talking to him well it's kind of wild i mean i don't know anything about that stuff i love those guys yeah and women but you played one a makeup artist with down i just remember oh no wait with robert down yeah no he did makeup on me oh he was an aspiring he was the guy that was learning how to do makeup that's right and he took a picture of you dead and he did it on me right like he like you're pretending to be dead right yeah right

yeah that was in uh shortcuts right oh bob yeah that was a it's weird with that movie because i love that movie and I like him. And for some reason, I'm the only one who interpreted that movie as a celebration of the human spirit. Really? Well, you need to find more like-minded friends. Well, I mean, it's dark. Because Carver, but it's dark. Yeah.

But the connections and that we're all sort of moving amongst each other. Right. But it was like every story, there was not too many great stories in that one. That's true. What was that guy like, Altman? I've talked to a few people about him. There's not that many people that, I mean, know him, but I've talked to a few.

I loved Altman. You know, he was just one of those really special men and you just knew why he was one of the best directors. Yeah. He sort of was like this master puppeteer yeah but you didn't see him controlling anything right just easing in and out easing in and out because that movie was like that was a later one right i mean he was that was it was after the play it was after he was sort of right his comeback whatever that means right and downy

he was like a kid then that was before the the problems, was it? Well, I knew he was having some problems when we were doing it. Oh, that was clear because he had already been on Saturday Night Live, I think. Right. And had done some, you heard stories about him doing crazy things in New York. Yeah. Yeah. Downey was having a nice time. I think it was probably still working actually at that point. Yeah. Right. It was still fun. Yeah.

The party was still a fun thing to be at. Yeah, it certainly didn't keep going that way. Boy, is he a great example that it ain't over till it's over. You don't give up hope. Yeah, it ain't over until you've made all the money in the world. That's his story.

Yeah. Things got bad and now he's back and he's made all the money possible to make and show business. You all right? Yes. Where did you come from, though?

Outside Chicago. Yeah? Midwest. Really? Yeah. Like you're a full-on Midwest family? I always associate you with the East Coast sensibility. I moved there in 88, so I've been there.

You don't sound Chicago. I know, but I can go back there fast. That was pretty fast. Thanks. I can go back fast. Yeah. But I love, I love, I always knew I wanted to be in New York. Yeah.

But I'm from Chicago. You're one of those people, yeah? Like the city itself? Yeah, because I wanted to be a theater actress. Yeah. And I knew I wanted to, I just knew, I I loved Chicago but it wasn't quite enough I also was Chicago's pretty great it's fantastic but I also felt a little unusual and I felt like New York there was more room for me in New York right sure yeah so did you start in Chicago though

did you like what's you come from a how big's the family six kids six six catholic no just a lot of kids i don't know i always ask that anyone anytime that someone says there's more than four kids in a family i assume it's uh jesus related yeah no it's not um i don't know what was going on well what's your well my younger brother and i were surprises so so um yeah you know, my dad was complicated. He was mentally ill. Really? With what? He had manic depression and alcoholism, but in the 60s when they didn't really know what it was.

When it was just angry and sad. Exactly. And drunk. Exactly. And when they discovered, before they discovered lithium, he was getting shock treatments. But then they gave him lithium, but then alcohol negates lithium. So he was self-medicating alcoholically. Which a lot of manic depressives do.

I know. Yeah. Do you know them? I do. My dad was bipolar. And he is. I mean, he keeps switching up his diagnosis. Which is a very bipolar thing to do. I know. Now, I guess, but he hasn't had any, I don't know if he's on medicine right now or what, but the profound depressions haven't been, he hasn't had them lately.

Or he's keeping them away from me. I'm not hearing about it. Did he used to go manic or depressive? Both. Like there was like long periods of just sort of like they get that look in their eye where they're just sort of sad and like that kind of lonesome dead look in their eye. It's the worst. And then he'd get, yeah, he'd get manic and spend a lot of money and make some bad decisions. Yeah.

Well, we share something. That's a very unique thing to have a parent who's. Unique's a diplomatic word. Yeah. I'm trying to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it is. Yeah. I mean, diplomatic word. Yeah, I'm trying to, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it is. Yeah, I mean, I know. Yeah, because a lot of times it gets, you know, there's plenty of people with alcoholic parents that I've talked to that may be the offspring of bipolar people. Yeah. So he was well into it by the time you were born then. He was. Yeah, he went into the hospital the year I was born. Really?

Yeah, that's when he had his big break, actually. So he was well into it, but nobody knew what it was, and then he had his break the year I was born. How did that manifest? Well, you know, I think it originally manifested as severe depression, but then it worked into severe mania. He would go into the, you know, we had to tell the Cadillac dealerships, please do not sell to Park Taylor. Really? He'll be coming there in a few minutes.

Please don't sell a car to him. That was his go-to thing? Cadillac. To buy Cadillac? Come on with the Cadillac. Yeah, pianos, a house.

A house? A house. Wow. A house. And he did it in cash so they had to move. So my poor mom was like, I gotta pack.

It happened. So you moved? Yeah, I was out of the house by then. Poor ma did it in cash, so they had to move. So my poor mom was like, I got a pack. It happened. So you moved. Yeah, I was out of the house by then. Poor Ma did it on her own. Oh, that was after? Yeah. So he stayed at it, huh? He did.

He did. And then we did an intervention on him. They're so excited when they do things, though, aren't they, when they're manic? Oh, they're thrilled. Yeah. But why isn't everyone else as thrilled as I am? That's amazing. Look, I just bought this thing I couldn't afford.

Yeah. And you've got the audacity to not be happy. Yeah, yeah. God damn it. You ruin everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So Cadillacs when you were around and then a house when you left. Yeah. House when I left. Yeah. Is he still around? He isn't. But, you know, we did an intervention on him, which it worked. And they look.

To stop drinking or to get medication? Both. Dual diagnosis. That's the key is he had never gone to a dual diagnosis that treats both the alcoholism and the mental illness. Because they didn't have them? They didn't. There weren't a lot of them,

but it wasn't something that was thought out. And so anyway, we got him into that place. Yeah. And he did much better after that. He would drink vanilla extract and have his little moments of tequila on the side. But for the most part, he didn't drink. He hated AA. Fine.

I don't care. But he didn't drink. Yeah. And he died a somewhat happy man. Yeah. And somewhat dry. Yeah. And medicated? somewhat happy man. Yeah. And somewhat dry. Yeah. And medicated?

Yeah. Depakote. Depakote. Yeah. My old man was on that. Yeah. Yeah. That worked for him, huh?

It did. My dad tries, he tried all kinds of things. I don't know what, if he ever leveled off on anything. And then he would get obsessed with side effects and talk himself out of it. And then when they get manic, they stopped taking it. They're a really tough bunch to treat. Yeah. For what you just said, all those little things you just said.

Yeah. That's the problem. Well, now, you know, I think what's knocking my dad down a bit is age. And he's 80. I don't know, even if he's manic, I don't know what kind of energy, what he has to do. He doesn't have much money anymore. So I think the damage is limited.

Right. Yeah, so he seems all right. Where is he? He's in New Mexico. Where'd you go up? New Mexico. But I mean, they're from Jersey. I'm genetically Jersey.

And they are in? My mom's in Florida. My dad's in New Mexico. Where in New Mexico? Albuquerque. Love it. You do? Yeah, I love it.

Have a soft spot for it. Me too. You know, now that it's become this hub of entertainment, it's amazing how many people have shitty experiences there because it's not the same as when I grew up there. No. It's a little beat up. Yeah.

It's a bit of a drug problem. Now it is. Yeah. And it wasn't. Well, I don't know. It always had a relatively high crime rate, but I didn't know that stuff growing up. To me, it's northern New Mexico.

It's just pretty. But now I go back and it's a little beat up it is but i appreciate that in relation to santa fe i i prefer the little rough around the edges sure well how well was your novel i've been a lot because i did yeah yeah what'd you film there i filmed um uh um maze runner um chambers um i think even a season of of i've filmed like three things there so you've spent a lot of time there and i really like it where did you go like now now i'm gonna play like where'd you go eat to go to frontier ever oh god yeah oh god yeah yeah um love frontier yeah that was one of my favorites i grew up up in that restaurant. I'm sure you did. And it's still going strong.

It's amazing. Love it. Yeah. When I was in high school, we used to drive there, meet there, spend hours there drinking coffee because it just, it used to be open to like, there was a period that was open all night and then it started open to like later. But we just sit there. It's open pretty late.

It is. And it's, I bet. Food's good. It's the same, right? Exactly. Hasn't changed. Yeah. I go, I'll get huevos rancheros, green chili stew, sit there. It's open pretty late. It is. And I bet it's the same, right? Exactly. It hasn't changed. Yeah, I go, I'll get huevos rancheros, green chili stew, sit there. Those sweet rolls, I never ate that much, but people like them.

But the chilies. Green chili, that's what it's all about. Yeah. So, okay, so you're in Chicago. There's six of you. Yeah. You're the second youngest? Yeah.

And there's four. Is everyone good? Yeah. All your siblings? Yeah. Do you know them all? Are you. Yeah. You're the second youngest? Yeah. And there's four. Is everyone good? Yeah. All your siblings? Yeah. Do you know them all? Are you? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we share a bond because of the mental illness. Do you have siblings? And also because you're siblings. And we're, well, yeah. Right. Do you have siblings? I do.

I have a younger brother. Okay. And he's all right. We're pretty, we're a lot alike. There's not much distance between us. Okay. And he's all right. We're pretty, we're a lot alike. There's not much distance between us. Okay. You know, emotionally, psychologically. But I don't know what, what's the age difference between you and the oldest?

That's the thing. Yeah. My oldest brother is 13 years older than me. Right. So he was like this weird guy. He was like a weird guy who was like, who's this older guy who's around the house? So by the time you were like 10. Oh, he was long gone. Oh,

he was. Oh, long gone. Yeah. He left when I was five. So I was always like, who's that guy? Parky? His name was Parky, but I didn't know him. My other older brother was just like a cool older brother who was like, took you on motorcycle rides. And then my sister was fantastic and she was a dancer. And my other sister, we had a foster sister. They brought in somebody before he broke down. And then my younger brother's out here. He's a locations guy. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Wow. And I'm close to my family in a lot of ways. Yeah, and then sometimes not. They're there. It's weird because I always ask people about their families, and I always assume that everyone – you're only as close as you make an effort to be. It's weird because I always ask people about their families, and I always assume that everyone, you know,

you're only as close as you make an effort to be. There's some people that are like, well, I always talk to my brother. I always talk to my sister. But some people are like, yeah, I talk to them occasionally. Yeah. What are you going to do? Just because you're siblings, like I don't really talk to my two older brothers. Right.

And I don't know why. They're older, and you don't maybe know them. They're older, and I don't know why. But if they. And you don't maybe. They're older. And I don't know why. But if they called, I'd say, hey. Sure. I mean, you're not not talking. Well, to one, I'm not talking. Okay.

That's okay, though. Because he's drinking. Oh, that's it. Call me when you're not drinking. Really? Yeah. You got to do the heavy Al-Anon thing. You got to do the hey.

That's okay. Detach with love. I don't have a problem with it. Yeah. So some of them got the sickness. We got the flu. Some of us got the flu. Is that what you say? The flu. Yeah. So some of them got the sickness. We got the flu. Some of us got the flu. Is that what you say?

The flu? Yeah. The mental flu? Yeah, yeah. Did you? Yeah. You got it? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. How bad? You know, I always thought- Which one? The bipolar or the alcohol? Alcohol. Oh, yeah.

I always thought, do you have the flu? I do, yeah. 20 years without the cause. 30. 29. 29. That's good. Yeah. You do the thing? Oh? I do, yeah. 20 years without the cause. 30. 29, 29. That's good. Yeah.

You do the thing? Oh, I do the thing. Yeah. I do the thing. How am I not seeing it the thing? I probably see it the thing. Honey, I live in New York. I know, but I got sober in New York. You're probably an extrovert, right?

I guess, yeah. I'm an introvert, so those movies were, movies, excuse me, meetings were a little too much for me. I needed something, man. Yeah. to not feel like a weirdo. And then they'd have that dance. I barely could do the dancing. They had a dance once a year, and I was like, I can't do it. I can't do this total sober fun thing.

But you know what's so great is that there's so many other people who are probably having the same thing. Oh, yeah. And a lot were dancing, but I know a lot are like, what the hell? I can't do this. Well, yeah, but some people are are like let's just embrace it but i'm like this is there's a part of me that's like this is a little sad yes because we're overcompensating exactly yeah but i talk i talk about it pretty freely on the thing because i i it changed my brain yeah somehow yeah yeah when did you get sober at 29? How old were you? I know. I was young.

I was probably 24. I got sober in 91. I thought I was going to end up in a bar stool with Paul Malls and chip nail polish. I thought I was going to go that way at 40. It didn't happen that way. It happened. A friend said,

do you want to come see some chamber music with me i said okay fine i'll go this is in new york yeah i said so you're already there you're already there working drinking a movie i've done three you've done so you oh so this is like right at the kind of original peak of your indie starness not even i had not even started the indies because everyone left new york York when I came in 88. And the Indies started around, maybe it was maybe 92, 93 probably. That's when you would call the Indies? Yeah, I guess so.

I mean, like which? What do you consider the Indies? Well. Because like dogfight? I guess that was an Indie. But that was Warner Brothers. But she had a studio telling her what to do. Yeah.

So I wouldn't, that didn't feel like an indie to me. That felt like an independent director. But Mystic Pizza? No way. No? Commercial all the way. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Huh. So that's, oh, so that was sort of the middle then, the indies. So she's having a baby, Mystic Pizza, and Say Anything. Those are big studio movies. Studios, yeah. And you'd done all those exactly I'd done

yeah I'd done those my dream was to always come to New York to do a play and with a little bit of money in my pocket yeah so I got a play

at the Public Theater in 88 which one What Did He See by Richard Foreman oh those were crazy plays crazy yeah a lot of things

going on in those plays yeah like a dream it was fucking great a lot of things going on in those plays. Yeah, like a dream. It was fucking great. There were a lot of things going on, but not a story. Everything but a story going on. Yes, and as the reviewer said, there was plexiglass across the whole stage, and he said it was there to prevent the audience from strangling the actors.

Oh, no. So it was, remember Simon? Yeah. Simon, that awful reviewer where you get Simonized if he tore you apart. Yeah, I don't remember that guy. Because he didn't do comedy shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were in a different world.

He did theater, huh? He did theater. Well, it seemed like Foreman actually took residency at a theater later. I mean, didn't he have his own theater? Yeah, the Ontological Hysterical Society. Yeah, yeah. Very Foreman-esque name on Second Avenue. Right.

Yeah. But this was at the Public. Yeah. Last time he worked at a... That's when he... That's what drove Society. Yeah. Very Foreman-esque name. Right. On 2nd Avenue. Right. Yeah. But this was at the public. Yeah. Last time he worked at a, that's when he, that's what drove him. Right. To his own. Fuck it. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And you were in that? I was in it. And it was just perfect. So where'd you, but where'd you do your training? In Chicago? I got kicked out of Goodman of DePaul.

Which is? It's a conservatory. Where's that? Chicago. Oh, is that a good one? Yeah. What's it called? Goodman of DePaul. Wow. I don't know anyone else conservatory. Where's that? Chicago. Oh, is that a good one? Yeah. What's it called? Goodman of DePaul.

Wow, I don't know anyone else. No one's mentioned that before. Well, I think Riley went there. John C.? Yeah, he went there. It's had some good ones. It's the Midwest version of a Juilliard, but it's Midwest. Like a Carnegie Mellon Juilliard.

Exactly. One of the league schools, they call it. Got it, got it. Yeah. And you got kicked out? I did. Here's the thing, is I was going to do a TV show that would have lasted one day of work. You're not supposed to work professionally at these things.

Right. I had gotten the approval from everybody except my one acting teacher. Yeah. Who said, no, I'm not going to let you go. I said, well, I'm filming tomorrow and everyone else has said, okay. He goes, you know what? We don't like your attitude. I said, you know what? I don't like your attitude. He said, you know what? You don't come back to this school. I said, you know what? I'm not going to come back to this school. I hung up and that was it. That was it?

I was done. How long had you been there? Four months. Oh, man. Wasn't for me. Yeah. You know, I did feel that they, I felt my spirit getting kind of knocked down a bit. Yeah.

Yeah. And maybe it just wasn't the right fit. Yeah. Well, I mean, I wonder what, because you seem kind of present and, you know, kind of lit up. So sensitive. So it seems like people that have that type of personality uh get beat up by people like that that's it that's it that's it you just you're moving through the world too open and they're going to shut you down i i like to think that's what happened but i felt like

it was that i wasn't trainable or you see you can't do anything right you know yeah but thank you i like that take better. I like your take. Well, I just think that excitable people, like especially people with a system, it just seems that there's some people that just do what people say and they kind of like go along the system. Then there's incredibly, you know, gifted people who are, you know, somehow they treat like aliens that just landed and they're so special.

And then they're just open, sensitive people that just really want to try. And those are the people that they seem to take their shit out on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, black sheep. Yeah. Yeah. But so it was probably better off. But was that the only training you had?

Was that four months? No, I studied with the Pivensins the pivin theater workshop so you've probably heard of them right jeremy's parents jeremy's parents yeah it was an improvisation right were they it was games it was games huh theater games they were kind of famous they were like dell close level which i i actually studied with dell you did i did i lived i lived above the blues bar and i lived across from Burton's Place. Did you ever perform in Chicago as a comedian? Not in the younger days, no.

I've gone back. I was just at the Vic. I've shot a special at the Vic, and I've done Zanies. But I didn't know that improv world or those small theater worlds. But since I've done films with Swanberg, I go there a lot. I've been there a lot. I was there during the. Like, you know, I've been there a lot. I was there during the heyday. Yeah.

And I wasn't an improver. But Del Close was. He hired me when I was still in high school, actually. Uh-huh. And he took me under his wing and he let me take his workshops and he brought me into the Herald. Yeah. Well, that's improv. Yeah, I know.

And I was awful. I was awful because I learned theater games. Yeah. I'm not an improver. Yeah. I know. And I was awful. I was awful because I learned theater games. I'm not an improver. Yeah. I'm not. I like lines. What is theater games? Theater games, funny enough, Viola Spolin.

This is the other school. Exactly. The Pivens. Viola Spolin, I believe, worked with Second City. So she comes from that background. But what she developed is these theater games that help get you out of your head. Yeah. And basically into joy, really.

Joy. Kind of. Did she frame it like that? No, that's how I kind of think of it. Or like play. Present? Oh, okay. Play.

Yeah. Like getting into the moment. Give me an example of a theater game. Let's see. One of the theater games is someone sits on a cube in the middle, and they've got one person on either side of them. And when I'm talking to the person on my right, I've got to totally engage and know exactly what she's saying. And then the person on my left talks. I've got to turn to him, but the one on my right keeps talking, and I have to go back to her and continue the conversation.

Okay. So I've got to be totally alive to both and yet connected to both. So listening. So listening. That's what a lot of the exercises are. But it's not written. It's improvised. It's improvised.

You're given like a who, what, when, and where. But you're not trying to be funny. Oh, so that's what you're saying. You do improvise, but not with the need to be funny. Exactly. With all these other people who are competing to be funny. Right. And that was just killing me.

I kind of fled New York because I was in that- You fled New York or Chicago? Excuse me. Fled Chicago partly because I was in this comedian world. And I was just like- Getting beat up on all levels. Beat up. There we go again.

Getting beat up on all levels. Poor Lily. Yeah. She's all sensitive and open with all these monsters wanting to be funny. A lot of pressure. Jeff Rowland, I would go around with Jeff in New York. Well, he's so loud. Yeah.

I know Jeff. Yeah, I would go with Jeff on his comedy nights in New York. Did you know him in Chicago? I did, and then he moved to New York, and I was in New York, and then I would go with him to his sets. Sure. Talk to him. Oh, yeah, his sets, before he goes on,

he's like, I don't write anything. It gets to a point where it's sort of like, Jeff, maybe I'll write a few things. Why not write a few things? He still does it, you know. Yeah. Yeah, he just prides himself on going on stage without anything prepared.

Okay. Doesn't it work sometimes? Del Close, did you learn anything from Del? Or did you just work for him? He seemed like a heavy cat. Yeah. What do you mean by heavy cat?

Just like, you know, had his problems, but like, he's seen as a real sort of Buddha of the whole improv thing. I mean, like, he spawned, you know had his problems but like uh what he's he's seen as a real sort of buddha of the whole improv thing i mean like he spawned you know that what is it long form herald is that his thing yeah and a lot of the people that are around today uh offshoots or offshoots of dell you know like upright citizens brigade like he because a lot of the comedy world today is based in Chicago sketch

and improv as opposed to stand-up. So a lot of them define what comedy is now. And a lot of them come from that world, but they all revere Dell. But I know he had addiction problems and he was sort of an intense guy and he was sort of like somehow stuck in being this guru. Yeah. But there was a failure element to him. Exactly. I think that's, I was getting all of that. I knew he was a genius.

Yeah. I knew, stay with this guy as long as you can, like Altman. Like he's one of those, like just stay, you'll learn. But he would have rages, you know um i didn't want to i didn't want to do anything wrong felt like home it felt like home that's here's the other problem with people like us who come from that it's like we're just gonna walk right in with any fucking lunatic that starts yelling at us like oh okay dad yeah i i have that too wait now did you know kenny shopson did you know the shopsons okay all right okay but i know i i know both sides of uh the the sort of

boundaryless emotional erratic dynamic yeah oh you can't it's taken me years to get out from under it i know how old are you 56, I thought you were about there. Yeah, 52. It's nice. I mean, it's, you know, whatever. Getting old is a lot of things, but it's nice to have gotten through some things. Oh, my God. So you're there with the genius yelling occasionally with Del.

Yeah. There with Del, knowing I was with greatness, knowing I wasn't an improver and that I needed to get the hell out of this world. Right. So I went to New York and- But you learned things. You liked the Piven school. I loved Joyce Piven. She was my teacher.

Yeah. And it helped. It helped. And I'm curious. So I learned from books. I sent myself to Carnegie Mellon for a summer program when I was 16. Yeah? Before you got, yeah.

Yeah. So I sent my, I would always investigate. Yeah. I'm an investigator. Did you do acting in high school too? Did you do stuff? I did.

I did. I did. I had a great, very strong acting school program. Yeah. Yeah. So you get to New York and were you just sort of like,

I'm here in New York or did you know people? Oh, I did. Well, I did the Mary Tyler Moore for sure. You did? Threw the hat in the air. On the Lower East Side? West Village. Oh, you were in the West Village. West Village. Oh, I did. Well, I did the Mary Tyler Moore for sure. You did? Threw the hat in the air. On the Lower East Side?

West Village. Oh, you were in the West Village. West Village. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I kind of settled there. I was about to go on the Lower East Side and then Kenny Shopsin, the crazy restaurant guy,

a famous restaurant, I was about to move over there. He goes, I don't want you moving over there. And he yelled to the restaurant, does anybody here have a sublet for her? I don't want her. And then someone said, oh, I do. Yeah, right over there. And he yelled to the restaurant, does anybody here have a sublet for her? I don't want her. And then someone said, oh, I do.

Really? Yeah, right on St. Luke's, right off of 8th, 7th and 8th. Uh-huh. Right near Morton and Clarkson. And so I moved there. Oh, that's kind of nice. That's almost like it's west-west, right? Very west.

Yeah, yeah. That's the block that's photographed. Yeah. That's on postcards. Right, right with the brownstones? Yeah, that's a nice-ass block. Yeah, that's That's the block that's photographed. Yeah. That's on postcards. Right, right with the brownstone? Yeah, that's a nice-ass block. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

Yeah, that's really nice. So that was okay. I'm living here in West Coast. He didn't want you on the east side with the junkies? Didn't want me there. Yeah, too dicey. Yeah, well, the door, there was a little slot on the apartment I was going to rent to put in the little packages of things.

Oh, really? Yeah. The business. Yeah. The package business. Here's the money. Give me the thing. Yeah. And that's where I lived. I lived on second between A and B. Oh, wow. Yeah. In 89. Oh, you were in it. Oh, yeah. Weren't we lucky to still get some of that? I guess so. I mean, a little bit. No, I get nostalgic and I romanticize that time. But it's like as you get

older, it's hard to argue like, was that better? I do know that time but it's like as you get older it's hard to argue like was that better I I do know that there was it seemed that there was uh at that time a more thriving art scene on all levels that's what I miss yeah music theater uh comedy to a certain degree the poetry scene like there was still that way crashing wave of performance art there was still like people who who didn't have money could afford to live there. And I think once that went away, the vitality and the insanity of what drove all that stuff kind of went

away. That's what I missed. That's what I missed. Yeah, but it was exciting to be in heroin land. It was not my bag. No, I didn't do it, but I lived right in the middle of it. I understood it. Yeah, but you probably wouldn't have lasted very long if you... No, I tried it. It wasn't my bag. No, I didn't do it, but I lived right in the middle of it. I understood it. Yeah, but you probably wouldn't have lasted very long if you had built that ship. No, I tried it.

It wasn't my bag. Like Coke, booze, pot. Yeah. And heroin just made me sweaty and tired and sick. I never tried it. I always thought. I didn't shoot it. I just snorted it because at that time in the late 80s, it was high grade.

So you could just do it. And I literally lived next to a heroin supermarket and you know I was sober there you know I started I the first time I got sober was 88 so like I go through these year and a half periods you know and and uh you know I would watch him and I was sober but I wasn't doing the thing but I just see all these junkies every day you know know, and I just thought it was so sad. And that can just change on a dime. You're just one day, you're like, what is going on in that doorway? How can it go from like, this is a tragedy to like, they're on to something. Yeah. That little turn of the mind.

Yep. And I tried it. It didn't stick, thank God. Lucky. Yeah. It just made me nauseous. Yeah. But what was your thing?

Just booze? Yeah. Booze and pot, pretty much. I mean, a little bit of cocaine, a little bit, but mostly booze and pot. So you get to New York. You're not on the East side, but you're getting fucked up? Oh, yeah. Yeah. But quietly, like I didn't want anyone to know I was an alcoholic. But you knew? Oh, I knew. Oh, I knew. From when? you knew oh i knew oh i knew from when you know i i it's funny i was in one of my journals in high school yeah scrawled across the page was you're an alcoholic really yeah and then i started to make little things with myself like if i drank like in my early 20s i would have to write i would have to type to elkie like a very john barleycorn-esque type of. So was this like, did you find yourself,

did you romanticize it? Like, I'm an alcoholic artist. No. Oh, okay. No, no, I was very ashamed. And so I would almost like do penance, like if I, and I'm not religious, but if I was going to drink,

then I would have to dialogue with alcohol. So that's not much fun. I wasn't having a lot of fun. Right. You know? Right. So that's not much fun. I wasn't having a lot of fun. Right. You know? Right. And you're doing it alone. Yeah.

And I guess I was trying to get conscious of it. Maybe I was speeding up my bottom is what I was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah, I don't regret it. I got here much earlier than I thought. Yeah, it's a long time you got sober. So when do you start working?

How does that start to unfold there in New York? Well, I was. Yeah. It's a long time you got sober. So when do you start working? How does that start to unfold there? Well, I was already working. And so I already, I. When you got there? Yeah. Cause I'd already done the movies, came into the play. You did the movies out of Chicago? Yeah.

I still live in Chicago. All three? Yeah. Why they were Chicago movies? Were they? It's because my, you know, I was friends with Cusack and all those guys. Okay. So that was it.

And so I. Who were the other of those guys? Oh, John Cusack, Jeremy Piven, Steve Pink, D.V. DeVin Santus. Yeah. Spoonie. Spoonie. Spoonie.

Who's that guy? Spoonie G. Okay. Sure. That clears it up. Yeah. So they were all still in Chicago? Yeah. No kidding. G. Okay. Sure, that clears it up. Yeah. So they were all still in Chicago? Yeah.

No kidding. Yeah. Yeah. And we had an agent. We all had the same agent. And then we came out to L.A. to work with the actor's gang, Tim Robbins. Right. And I got Mystic Pizza when I was out here visiting the agent with all the boys.

Okay. And then went back to Chicago, did Mystic Pizza, came back to Chicago. Then we did Say Anything with all the boys. Yeah. Right. Came out to L.A., went back to Chicago, did Mischief Pizza, came back to Chicago. Then we did Say Anything with all the boys. Yeah, right. Came out to L.A., went back to Chicago, and then maybe one more movie, and then I moved to New York. Huh. So that was the, yeah, because I see, like, I don't know, are you friends with those guys still? Not really, but like if I see them, I know we would all get along.

They're very different people now. You know, I mean, it's sort of amazing that they all hung out together because I can't see Cusack and Piven hanging out at this point. No. Yeah. No, I don't think so. No. But when, I can't remember.

Oh, I do remember you in Born on the Fourth of July. Where did you cast out out of? Oh, Stone. He came to New York and I met with him on that one. Oliver Stone? Yeah. Wow. Was that intense? It was. Actually, it was interesting. He was a real asshole and I was- Oliver Stone? No kidding. Surprise, surprise. And it was hot. It was like 100 degrees. I was like, you know what, man? I was like, I don't need to be here. I'm here to, you know, and I guess I got the part because of that. You know, he was, you know, clearly you

could see he just was damaged by the war. Really? That was your sense? Yeah. Yeah. Because that was pretty early on. I mean, he'd done a couple other movies by then, but. Yeah. That was pretty early on still. Yeah. That must have must've been it. Well, that's a pretty intense movie. Yeah, it is. Right. There's a couple of moments in that movie. They're kind of mind blowing.

I, you know, despite whatever Oliver's, I, he, he puts together a hell of a movie. Yeah. I agree.

You know what I mean? I agree. And Tom Cruise is really good. Cause it's good when he has something to focus on. I think the wheelchair was a good, yeah. If Tom can like hang off of things or you know like if he has a thing you're right he needs an object he does yeah that's a good point you

know it's so funny he was doing push-ups uh-huh as uh ron i guess was his name ron kovic yeah i almost wanted to say don't maybe don't do those push-ups maybe just sit in the chair uh-huh just maybe relax a little bit you know yeah but i don't think he can noups. Maybe just sit in the chair. Uh-huh. Just maybe relax a little bit, you know? Yeah. But I don't think he can. No. No. He's kind of a, you know, despite all the weirdness, he's kind of an amazing thing, that guy.

I agree. The last movie is when I was kind of like, you're on another level, dude. Which one? The one, the mission, where he really was close to death. Mission Impossible? Yeah. And so much older and like, wow, you're on another level, dude. You just are.

Yeah. Yeah. He certainly doesn't want to get old. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so much older and like, wow, you're on another level, dude. You just are. Yeah, yeah. He certainly doesn't want to get old. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I saw that one where he played the pilot in the drug thing. That was kind of a good movie. It didn't do anything, though. Oh, right.

I forget what it was called. I heard that was excellent, actually. I missed it. I thought it was pretty good. I did. That's what I heard. Like, it was one of those movies like, why didn't he? How could a Tom Cruise movie not make any sort of dent?

It's usually, anytime you ask that, it's usually because the ending is dark. Any big actor movie, a lot of them that don't go anywhere, it's because the ending is kind of like, ugh, people don't like that.

They don't want to see Tom Cruise. That's interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know what it was. Sometimes they suck, you know,

but other times it's just. But when they're good and they don't catch on Tom Cruise. That's interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know what it was. Sometimes they suck, but other times it's just... But when they're good and they don't catch on why, and that's interesting. Yeah, a lot of times it's because of the fucking ending. That's interesting. Dogfight, I kind of knew

when that happened because Anthony Clark was a comedian. Oh, of course. And that was a big deal to comedians in that moment where it's like, he got a movie,

a real movie. Now it's like, my God. I don't know what happened to comedians in that moment where it's like, he got a movie, a real movie. Now it's like, my God. I don't know what happened to that guy. I don't either. He was on TV forever. He got high a lot. I actually got high with him because I was still using during Dogfight. That was my last movie using.

And I actually got high with him. That's right. But River's problem was so pronounced. Then even? Oh, yeah. Alcohol. Really? It was alcohol then. He hadn't gotten into the heroin yet, but I knew that poor guy had it bad. That was kind of a heavy movie.

I know. And especially with River, he was so uncomfortable playing military i mean you could just feel hippie all over him you could just feel it and poor joaquin at that point he was leaf yeah that was his name and his all of his frayne and all of his family was around and yeah and joaquin was in it too joaquin was just always around oh he was or leaf and yeah you just saw this family that was like, they're hippies. Yeah. Children of God. Children of God.

Yeah. And he's playing a frigging mean military guy. Yeah. A Marine. But he did all right, right? Oh, he did. But off set, he was a mess. It was killing him?

It was killing him. It was. Wow. It really was. And look, I mean, this disease, it just doesn't discriminate. No kidding. And what happened to that director? I was looking at some of this stuff, and there was, like, when you were in The Independence,

that first, because you sort of were in the first wave of Independence. I was. Right? I was in it when they weren't really being seen, and they weren't that cool. Right. No, it was sort of that period with, like, Jarmusch and those people and what's Abel Ferrara? They did The Addiction with Abel. I know.

Yeah. Oh, my God. That guy was like notorious. You were in Rudy, too. I know. I was still living in Chicago. No, I went back to Chicago to do a play with Joyce Piven. Yeah.

And I was driving over to Notre Dame after the show to do Rudy. Yeah. And then driving back to do the play. I don't know what the hell I was doing. Rudy. Rudy. That movie. I know.

That guy. There's some Rudy fans out there. Yeah, Rudy is one of those movies for some reason that everybody knows. I know. So what would you say is the first movie of that independent period? That I did? Yeah, because these were big movies. You did another movie with

Altman. Didn't he do Pret-a-Porter? Was that Altman? That was a weird movie. That was awful. He was in the worst mood. I didn't see it. He was miserable. Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle.

That was a fun movie. Alan Rudolph. I did that because of shortcuts and Alan Rudolph. Alan Rudolph, smart writer. Yeah. And director and like an Altman guy. Right. He did Choose Me with the character. Exactly.

Remember? Yeah. Choose Me was such a special movie back then. Yeah. And he was like an Altman guy. Right. That's right. And they were very close.

Right. Same producers. Right. What happened to that guy? I don Same producers, same, you know. Right. So I just- What happened to that guy? I don't know. I don't know. That was my point.

It's like, what happened to a lot of these directors from that particular period? You know, because like a lot of times these indie directors of this, the last wave of indies- Yeah. Within two movies, they're directing, you know, Marvel movies. Yeah. And they just- That's how it works now.

It is sort of. Yeah. And back then, like they'd kind of play themselves out. But okay, so what would you consider the first of those movies? The Addiction? For me? Yeah. Household Saints.

God Almighty. It might have been The Addiction. Household Saints, no? That wasn't an indie? Again, that's a studio. Huh. The Addiction wasn't. The Addiction-

Ferrara wasn't. But of course. Yeah. Can you expect anything but yeah oh my god that was how'd you meet that guy well the first time we met yeah um somehow he wanted to meet me i went over to his fantastic apartment in um in the flat iron an elevator that he had to ride you know one of those chain things yeah yeah handle lever handle and we go up and he's you know pulling at his neck and he's like you know you know he just probably did something crazy right before i got there and i come and he's like yeah yeah yeah so like uh yeah yeah here you're you know do some good stuff well he had a wine glass in his hand the wine glass tipped just enough so that the wine didn't pour out.

Yeah. And he fell asleep. And that was our meeting. And I said, Abel, hey, Abe, I'm going to go now. Yeah. I got the part. You did. Got the part.

And I would go over to his apartment. Yeah. And he would do what he was doing in one room. And I would go in the other room. Because I didn't have a TV. I needed a video machine. I was like looking at things. Like I found this great nature documentary about lions. Yeah.

And I said, Abe, this reminds me of when all the vampires are killing, you know, we all kind of are feasting. Right, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah, love that, love that, love that. So I would just come over there and I would think of things and work on things. And he would be in the other room and like a little neglected child, I would just, love that, love that. So I would just come over there and I would think of things and work on things and he would be in the other room and like a little neglected child, I would just say, bye dad, see you later. And I'd go back home

and it felt totally normal. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I did love him though. I mean love, not past tense. I was just going to actually work with him. I would work with Abel again in a second.

Really? Because he's so creative. Interesting guy, right? He's creative. He really is. So that was the real indie. That was fantastic. Did it do all right?

Oh, no. As we were making it, he's like, okay, we got five guys in the back of the Angelica with glasses on. And then after the first week, he's like, okay, we got four guys left. We had nobody left. It was fine. It was so frigging out there um he knew he's like look it's black and white no one's gonna see this um uh and then i went in and did um

the the valerie solanus which is so great and independent that was a big movie for you it was huge for me it was huge because for me it me, it was huge in terms of collaboration also. Because I collaborated with Mary Herron. There was nothing written about Valerie Solanas. She did all this research. So together, we kind of found out who she was. I just loved it. We were in New York.

Who played Andy? Oh, Jared. Jared Harris. Yeah. So I want to make sure people know we're talking about I shot Andy Warhol. Yes, I shot Andy Warhol. And that was like, you were the one. I was the one.

Yeah. Great actors, too, you work with. Oh, yeah. I just interviewed Dorff. He's fucking great. He's great. Great. I know.

We just did something, Leatherface, the origin story to the Chainsaw Massacre. You guys did that? Yeah. I think I threw him into the pigs. You did? Yeah. I had my sons throw him into the pigs and finish him up. Yeah.

Yeah. Martha Plimpton I've talked to as well. I've talked to all of you. Jared I talked to years ago. Yeah. That was a great movie. I know. Mary Herron's so talented.

What happened to her? She's still, I was actually just going i know mary heron's so talented what happened to her she's still i was actually just going to do something with her oh yeah but i couldn't make the dates work she's still at it i think what we're seeing with a lot of these directors that we're seeing in the first wave yeah are so independent that um you know they they do their own thing you know yep yeah i did is, and they stick with it. You know, it's hard to realize that sometimes people aren't gunning for the type of success that you associate with wanting to do. Like sometimes people, independent filmmakers who I've worked with, they get studio opportunities and they realize, like, I don't want to fucking do that. with you know they get studio opportunities and they realize like i don't want to fucking do that yeah have no control be sold out you know and and you know have to compromise whatever vision or not

even or just be a pawn in this bigger game like so they wait and they do what they want to do yeah exactly and sometimes it's worth it some you know it's like it's weird if like if you make one amazing movie that you know people never forget no matter what your life is or how you might think of it, that movie sort of stays. Sure. It's there forever. It is. It is.

Hopefully, if they transfer it. Because that's been a problem, actually. In terms of streaming? Well, in terms of the life of the celluloid. I have archivists saying to me, you know, you got to watch this. He goes, there's only one print left of X. Really? Oh, Girlstown.

Girlstown. That was, I think, my first independent. Yeah. And that was, we did that like Mike Lee style where we improv for a year. Yeah. And then. Really? Yeah.

And then we did it. And then we shot it in 14 days, all on donations, maybe $100,000. I remember the movie. I don't remember if I saw it. Oh, it's really. Have you watched it lately? I have because like if people want to show some of my things or something, I always recommend it.

Jim McKay, he's the director. He's a great director. He asks for it to be shown. It's a special one. It's special. Yeah. That was my first independent so okay and now at that time i just remembered there was a whole kind of um almost a community of people around yeah like

it was like everybody had left new york right when i got there in 88 yeah because something had changed with the unions and everyone was leaving yeah and but a few stayed and the ones that stayed did the independence right and that was the community Yeah. And, but a few stayed and the ones that stayed did the independents. Right. And that was the community that started to form. Like who were they

in your mind? Well, Christine Vachon, of course, Killer Films, Abel Ferrara, Jim McKay, oh,

Ted Hope from Good Machine. Yeah. How about the actors who were around? Oh God, the actors, Hope Davis, Edie Falco, Stanley Tucci, John Turturro.

Right. All the New Yorkers. All the New Yorkers. Yeah. And a lot of us do theater. Yeah. Marcia K. Harden. Yeah.

And, of course, all the soprano people were. Guys around there. Yeah. I mean, Mike Imperioli I'd gone out with before he did Sopranos you guys dated? we did, we loved each other oh did you talk to him lately with the book?

I heard it's great it's a pretty good book it's like a young adult's book good for Mike he's up north somewhere he's a Buddhist, That's what I hear. Yeah, he's just kind of hanging out. He came down.

He was thrilled. I read the whole book. I liked it. You know, it was like a coming of age teenager story. And Lou Reed's a character in it. Of course. Of course he is.

Yeah. Of course he is. And you know, Mike was also in I Shot Andy Warhol. Yeah. So he was in his element because we were in the 60s

and the production design was so good. And actually, Lou Reed was very upset we were making the movie, which... 60s. Yeah. And the production design was so good. And actually, Lou Reed was very upset we were making the movie, which. He was. Yeah. Did you get to meet Lou? No. Well, I met him sometimes in the rooms.

Right. Yeah. But he was very angry at Valerie Solanas and that the movie was being made. Oh, he didn't want her to be elevated in any way. Exactly. Because that happens with those kind of stories, where the people that were really there, and it was horrible, why would you draw attention to that person?

Was she still alive too? No, I don't think we could have made it. Oh. She would have killed us. Well, you know what I mean? Maybe. Because she's paranoid schizophrenic. I wouldn't want her around.

Wasn't she locked up though? Yeah, but then she got out. She died homeless in San Francisco. No kidding. Yeah, I know. So the reason why she killed was just because she was hallucinating? Paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, man.

They make sense of things in a way that only they understand. Exactly. Which we're seeing a lot on the right now. Yeah, we sure are. Yeah, there's a sort of intentional paranoid schizophrenia going yeah that's a good good analogy so you never got you never worked with harmony corrine no because he was younger than us right yeah exactly that was like the next gen exactly yeah and then he had his whole little crew you know and he mostly did stuff with younger people yeah like chloe sauvigny so

she was you know she's 15 years younger than me or something. Yeah. What does she do? I see her in pictures a lot. I don't know what she does cinematically. Yeah. She's got a clothing line, right? She does fashion stuff and acts.

I don't know her. I never met her. But you never seem to stop working. Well, that's true. Isn't that true? Yeah. And that's like you now to stop working. Well, that's true. Isn't that true? Yeah. And that's like you now like this working. So what happened with, what was it?

Is this water enough under the bridge? Oh, wait a minute. Are you bringing up something about a guy? Who I talk to? Really? Yeah. Wow. Don't take it personally.

Oh, I'm not. I'm not. Oh, I'm not. You mean you talk to him on the show? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot? No, I had him on once.

Okay. And then I see him around. Now he's doing comedy again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It still seems pretty volatile, pretty fresh. Yeah, I guess so.

It's a while ago, right? It is. Yeah. Yeah. It was devastating? That was a hard one. Yeah. That was a hard one yeah that was a hard one yeah yeah we don't have to talk about it we haven't even mentioned his name well that yeah i don't usually mention his name um stalking is hard yeah as it was at the first time

and only time that i had been yeah yeah huh yeah Yeah. Yeah, I don't, but the thing, it's weird. So wait, we didn't even talk about, so what compelled you to get sober? What evening did that? I just realized that, you know, you got sober in New York and we brought that up. But what was the event? When I got sober? Yeah. So I was invited to go to Chamber Music.

Right, that's right. We started this story and we did to Chamber Music. Right. That's right. We started this story and we did not finish it. Yeah. And I said, I'll go if you get high with me, to my friend. Yeah. I got high. Before Chamber Music performed.

Exactly. Yeah. If you want to get sober and have the universe tell you things. Right. So I was paranoid. I didn't want to leave because I thought, oh, everyone will look if I leave because the truth was coming at me because that was the whole thing.

I was always running from the truth. Right. Of your alcoholism. Exactly. Yeah. And I was stuck and it just happened.

It just flashed. It was kind of white lighty. At the chamber music wing? Yeah. At the performance? During the performance, you are an alcoholic. Yeah.

Like in big capital letters above the stage. Yeah. You are. And I was silent. I was silent for the next two days. I didn't say anything because I knew something had happened. And I didn't want to do anything for a while. And then I was going out of my mind and then someone from my past in Chicago had called

and she must have sent something. And she said, you know, I've gotten sober. And I said, oh my God, I don't know what to do. I don't think I'm going to make it, but I don't want to do AA. And she said, why don't you just go over to Perry Street? And that was it. Was this someone in show business? No.

Oh. No. Did you have a soundtrack to your White Light experience? No, because I think I, well, I went out of body. Oh, yeah. Probably. And I was high, so I never really remembered things anyways. Right, yeah, yeah.

I don't remember the music. I was freaking out. Wow. Yeah, and that's when my life changed. And that was on weed. Yeah. That and that's my life changed and that was on weed yeah that's a good yeah because that'll freak you out exactly and then the next day you went to perry street no nine days later i i was hanging on tight i didn't want to do it i went in and out for years yeah yeah so that was that and that was 19. Wow. That's a long time. I know. So most of your career you've been sober.

I have. So, okay, Michael Rappaport. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened, but I have to assume that you've both gotten older and wiser. I have. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't. From the point that I stopped picking up the phone and opening the door, I have, you can feel it. I don't. Yeah. You detach from it. Yeah. Yeah. But you started out dating regular and then it just got weird?

Well, then I wanted to break up. And that was it? Yeah. And that's usually when that stuff gets activated. I mean, if you have some kind of impulse control or entitlement issues or don't think someone else has the right to their privacy. But you got through it? Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah, I did. It was hard though, because he's got a big mouth, you know? Yeah. I don't think we talked about it. And I think it was one of those things that like,

it seemed to be in the culture, right? Because I guess he's got a big mouth he's got a big mouth yeah well that's that that he still has yeah he does it seems bigger he that's the problem he's he was very juvenile and had a big mouth so he it was like a fourth grade playground problem of and you were the villain I was the villain yeah yeah so um know, best to just pull back and. Move on. And yeah. And you ended up getting married at some point? Yeah.

That's good. Yeah. You found somebody that wasn't to represent your childhood somehow? Exactly. I mean, you know, look, I mean, that I think that was probably right before my 30s. And yeah, we all we all go through things, don't we? was probably right before my 30s and yeah we all we all go through things don't we you know the thing is weird is that like I don't know you but you seem very familiar to me because I've grown up with you to a certain degree in your work but like and I and I get a sense of who you are

and and you're like that but the thing is is that emotionally I don't know that people change that much as people but the intensity of their emotions and how they experiencing them, that that does change. You know what I mean? It's like I think who we are is sort of set, you know, is the framework. Yeah. But the emotional intensity or, you know, like the like sobriety or whatever, obsession, insanity, you know, depression, like all that stuff that happens in the psyche and the emotional realm, that stuff can level off. And you can make different decisions around it. But the vessel itself

and the sort of framework of who we are kind of stays the same. Sure. Which is, I think I'm just realizing that as I'm saying it to you. Great, discovering it. But it makes sense because they say people experience contentment after 50.

Do they? Is that what they say? Yeah. And I think it's partly because we've experienced so many things. We just know. We've had enough experience to not go down X road,

not go down Y road. Like, for instance, reading a review. I've read enough reviews to know that I shouldn't do that. That doesn't work for me. So now I don't read a review. And it's like there's a contentment because I have experience now. And that's wisdom. I think that's interesting.

I don't know if I've ever heard that. I didn't know that adage that we experienced contentment over in our 50s because like i you know for a while there i thought i was getting alzheimer's but it's just contentment right right wisdom and it's wisdom well yeah and also like just knowing and i think for people like you and i in in what we have in common you know in the boundary department to sort of you of have them and enforce them and make decisions around them, even though they may not be instinctually what we want to do.

But knowing that we need to do it is a big deal. To be able to say like, OK, just even to tell yourself I'm not going to read reviews or I don't need to follow this person on Instagram anymore because it's making me full of resentment and whatever it is, we know enough to take care of ourselves through deciding. Because for some reason, I'll let myself take a lot of shit. Right. You know, like just live in a certain amount of discomfort. Yeah.

Because I just don't make choices to not do it. Sure, sure. Because I'm used to discomfort. Right, right. Do you know what I'm used to discomfort. Right. Right. Do you know what I mean? I do. And I think that thing about deciding or discernment only comes when you know what the things are that you are discerning. Right. So if you don't make decisions, if we were just sort of in a, ah, where am I? I don't know. But now we have enough information to know

I want to do this as opposed to that and make decisions. Sometimes that's all I know is that I don't want to do that anymore. I think that's a great way to get somewhere. To start with what don't you want to do or what. That's a lot of information. I'm still unclear about what I want to do. Yeah, me too. Are you? Yeah.

Desire is hard. Weird, right? Desire is hard. That's good. That's what. Yeah, because I'm doing a bit now about that. How like, you know, joy and happiness is, is not really anything I've looked for. Relief is really sort of, you know, like, it's not happiness. It's just how do I not feel insane or anxious or, you know, worried or full of dread or, you know, I don't know. And would you like it to be not just trying to get relief but actually

getting joy or just that must have felt good that's i it was good well i think i'm i'm finding that you know contentment is sort of part of the pathway that like it makes it seem more possible i don't know that i'm looking for joy but i think happiness is okay. You know, I do think I experience joy, but I don't make a big deal out of it. God forbid. I keep it to myself. Yeah. I keep that joy to myself. I'm going to spread the joy around.

But, you know, I think it's getting better. Yeah. Yeah, you? You know, it's a big deal going to the second part of one's life. I feel that I'm up to the task. Yeah. I didn't know. A couple years ago, I was like, okay, I know there's a task.

I don't know if I'm up to it. But what does that mean? Well, to me, it means, am I going to show up? Am I really going to show up? For this age? Yeah, to the next chapter of my life, to the second part of my life, which is, am I going to face the things that I didn't want to face, develop the things that are undeveloped, look at that which I didn't want to, am I up to this? Part of me was like, I may not be. I may not be up to this task.

Well, what's the alternative? She just wasn't up to the task. God says. Guys, guess what happened? She just wasn't. That plays out in my mind. But what is it? That I go to bed and I don't, that I stay in my bed.

Okay, okay. Depression. Yeah. Or she just moved away and no one ever heard from her again. Right. Or, yeah, she's just acting weird. Have you seen her around lately? No one knows what happened to her.

No one knows what happened, but she's just not facing things. Yeah, right, right. I feel like I kind of crossed that threshold, and I was like, I'm going to, damn it, I'm going to muster up this. I'm going to face this task. I felt like I was going going there going into the stuff that i'm afraid of yeah i feel like i took a back step like a couple of months ago oh yeah yeah back steps are hard well i'm working on this piece i'm working on a piece okay and i showed the piece theatrical piece yeah uh-huh and i think think it might have been too soon for me to show it to people.

Oh. Yeah. And so I lost myself. Couldn't take feedback. Weren't ready for feedback. I don't think I was. Yeah. I don't think I was.

So that's what I'm... So I need to just get back that... Yeah, fuck them. Okay. See, I don't have that. I don't either, but I can pretend. Well, you got it so that you believe it. I can pretend, but I'm just like,

it's like, oh, she's pretending. She's saying, fuck that. Look, I get very distant. But that's the one thing. It's sort of like reviews. Here's the weird thing about, especially now, if you're on Twitter or, you know,

with reviews or you read a comment board or, you know, like I'm pretty sensitive, but like I, I've learned that from putting myself through it, from taking those hits that it doesn't mean, especially with the internet, it's like,

it doesn't mean everybody thinks that way. It doesn't mean the entire internet thinks that way. And even if it's peers, it's like, well, who are they really? I mean, you're just up against someone's opinion that comes from whatever day they're having, whatever life they're having. So at some point, you know, like most of the time, most people that you rely on, they're not even thinking about you. So like, you know, you put them in that position. So for me, when I break it down, what's that opinion really worth? And a lot of times if it triggers something in me,

like, or especially if they're trolls and they want to make you feel insecure or whatever, I mean, you know, there's that, but it's like, even that's not really real. Like I'm developing a thicker skin from putting myself through it. Well done. but like for what are you writing I'm writing um it's a one-woman show yeah with probably you know film and sound

and um and it's about acting and birding so it's all it's a. So it's a memoir piece. It's a memoir piece, which also is very difficult. My husband writes memoirs. How many memoirs can you write? Plenty. He's on his fourth. Is he writing a memoir about writing a memoir? No, not yet.

Not yet. Yeah, you can do them. What's his name? Nick Flynn. Oh, he's a big writer? Another bullshit, Night in Suck City. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the one he wrote about 10 years ago, I guess.

Yeah? Did it all right? Yeah, it did. It did. It's a good title. I know. So birding and acting. Yeah.

You're a birder? I'm a birder. Hmm. You're a birder? I'm a birder. Hmm. And what it's about is about, I've realized that the skills that I use in my acting, I also use when I'm birding. The main skill being listening.

Hmm. And that they intersect in this really interesting way. Huh. they intersect in this really interesting way. Huh. And it's really about paying attention. Because I'd read this thing where listening is the sense, hearing is the sense, and listening is the skill,

and the difference between the two is paying attention. Huh. And so that's what the piece is about, and how hard it is to pay attention. In general. Yeah. And that I have so much experience of not being able to pay attention. Really? Because as an actor, you'd be a psych ward if you were always in the moment.

Huh. You'd be crazy. I mean, you can't always be in the... When you're working or just in life? Let's say I'm on the stage. Yeah. The goal is to be in the moment. Yeah. Well, I'm aware of the audience.

I'm thinking about, I'm in fear. I'm thinking about dinner. I'm thinking about, I don't like the actor. Right. How do I get back in the moment? Right. How do I get back in? How do you?

Right. So I've had a lot of experience. The main thing I can always go to is listening. Because even if I can't listen, I can keep trying to, and I will eventually listen. It's got this cool thing built in it. Like, okay, well, I'm not listening. I say, well, just try to listen. But I can't listen. Just try. Oh, oh. Okay, I got it. And that can bring you back in. Yeah. So you're saying that creatively, or that to do the thing, to get into the present, requires hearing, then listening, and then you are engaged, and you're outside of yourself because you're in the moment, where you're not in your head. Right, and I guess it helps to have something to focus on.

I guess listening focuses. I think it's hard to be in the moment. What's be in the moment? Like, what, how do I be in the moment? Like that's not actable in a way to me, but listening is actable. I can, I can do that. And listening is so cool because it, it makes room for the other. Yeah, sure. It's all about the other. It's all for the other. Yeah. Sure. It's all about the other. It's all about the other.

Yeah. Now, where is this coming? Now, when did the birding start? The birding started probably about maybe eight years ago. I went to my first bird festival. The birding for me was when Twitter came. I saw that birders use Twitter a lot. They do?

Yeah. Because it's a great way to communicate, oh, there's X bird over here. Oh, okay. Okay. So like you got a little world. You got a bird world on Twitter. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, there's like a bunch of people at Central Park. There's like a bird there.

And like, oh, cool. Maybe I'll do that. Whereas before I would just like, you know, I felt like I was doing it alone. Like I liked birds, I had bird feeders, but I didn't never like, I didn't know what to do with it. Or what kind of birds were what? Well, I knew a little bit of that, just a little bit, but I guess I hadn't met my tribe, you know, because so much of it is about us community, about us reflecting back with each other.

And you're part of it is about us community, about us reflecting back with each other. And you're part of it now? Yeah, man. So I went to my first bird festival like eight years ago, and that's when I started calling myself a birder. Wow. Yeah. And that was like, I'm a birder. What kind of people are birders? Can you generalize?

My husband's also a poet. Yeah. And he said, you know what? I think you've actually found a group that is more out there than poets you have you found it you've you've got the metal you got the metal you know here's what birders are birders are great they're curious they're they're they investigate they um they're Investigate. They're open. And yeah, some can seem nerdy. But their obsession or their interest is literally fleeting.

In the sense that you find these birds and you just want to, you have to wait and be quiet and hope they don't fly away. That's a good point. That's interesting. That is definitely one way to look at it. But I think it's deeper because that bird is, where is that bird coming from? Where's that bird going to? What's its habitat? Is it nesting? Where do they hang out? Where's the other? Why did I not identify it? Was I not in the moment? How can I identify that bird better? What do I need to do to learn? How can I sharpen my skills? So you keep kind of trying to grow and develop. Huh. Interesting. So that's the grow and develop and learn part, like in knowing which birds

vacation where during the winter and that kind of stuff, or why they're not around or where they might be, or is that the same one from last year? Look, it had babies, all that stuff. It's infinitely interesting. It really is. But also the other amazing thing about birds is they fucking fly. Right, right. They fly. Yeah, and that's kind of amazing.

I know. Right? They fly. Yeah, they fly. I know. And they're dinosaurs. That's another thing we keep forgetting. When I saw there are these great nest cams and there was one with a great blue heron.

And I would use it to calm down, like when I was doing The Conjuring, and I would come home after being possessed all day. And I would turn these nest cams on at night and just be with the nest, you know, with that heron sleeping on top of the chicks and the spring peepers and all that. And I was watching and all of a sudden a great horned owl swooped in and tore the feather off the top of the heron's head and, you know, tried to get the heron and the heron came up and it looked like a pterodactyl, like against like a silhouetted, you know? And you saw all this i saw all of it it was like like a pterodactyl and it was like life and death and i was like first of all that's a dinosaur okay let's just just remember that yeah but just the life and

death and and you're just looking for a little peace i was and but i was but that's the thing. That's that listening thing is I was like, stop imposing on nature. Yeah. Stop going to it. Why don't you just let it be? And not to be like, it's good, it's bad. Right. It's this, it's that. Just come to it.

Let it be what it is. Yeah. Chaos. A fight for survival. Bloody mess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah.

No, I think it's interesting. And so, well, I mean, don't be set back too much. Okay. Just because, you know, you put it out in the world. You should try, why don't you run it in pieces? Why don't you do some storytelling nights? Huh. Like a moth thing.

Like, you know, instead of like worrying about the whole piece, why don't you break it into stories and tell them, you know, like a bit at a time. 10 minute. Very good. 15 minute pieces. Because they have all those storytelling nights. I'm sure any of them would love to have you. Very good.

I have. I've done a moth. I did the moth ball. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So, and I know those guys. I love those guys. Was it part of this thing that you're working on, the story you told? No.

But would it work that you could do it that way? Oh, yeah. I mean, I did that big benefit thing at the moth ball, but I could just, I mean, they're all the time. All I have to do is just sign up to one of these things. Right. That is great advice. See, what I love about that is I could have just kept this all to myself and not shared this kind of struggle or this uncomfortable moment. And I did. And to a good person, to a good source. And here you just came back with something. That's what it's about. And for me, i'm an isolator yeah and i don't for me

what i've really learned the past couple years is it's people it's really by sharing with others that that's when i feel better of course yes and that's so that's and that's also the nature of the program yeah exactly duh duh but i didn't know with my work how important it was because as an actor i'm always with like other, you know, we are together, communal. Sure. And you're also working on someone else's work. It's a collaborative. A lot of times it's a collaborative piece that was written or directed or created by someone else. Right. And so I don't have to do a lot. But on my own, I'm like, oh, I've got to be with people. So that's fantastic. What you did was you just made it manageable, which is so huge, because it started to feel overwhelming.

Well, yeah, because when you're putting together a piece, because I improvise through hours. I'm working on a new hour of stand-up or whatever, and I've done one-person shows, but I work on stage with my... That's how I generate generate is in real time. Like I don't write it down because that bothers me. It dies for me if I write it down too much.

Like sometimes I'll record things over and over again until I get them right. But I'll never listen to the recordings. And I have transcribed recordings. But I know from workshopping my own stuff that you can create space for yourself like that. I know from workshopping my own stuff that you can create space for yourself like that. If you do a storytelling thing or what I'll do if I'm trying to improvise through things to get new stuff, I'll just do like a, like, you know, work out at a small black box theater, you know, do like a residency, like, you know, like a few Tuesdays a month with, you know, like either like a $5 ticket or a cheap ticket with the understanding that I'm

working on something. And, you know, and just, you know, whoever comes, comes and I'll just try to fucking process it in front of people. That's great. That's kind of, I think, where I am. I'm looking into residencies actually, because I think I need to do that sort of thing you've just described. But what I love is you've just given me like three great solutions yeah so thank you as opposed to just isolating and thinking you suck yeah you you did you you good yeah well this was a worthwhile thing to do then yeah and what are you and what's this perry mason show yeah it's pretty cool oh yeah oh yeah it's. Tim Van Patten is creating it with HBO, and Tim Van Patten did all the Sopranos. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Boardwalk Empire, Wired. Oh, really? He's fantastic. Old school New Yorker. Yeah. And he's resurrecting Perry Mason. Yeah, but it's really cool because it's it's the no it's from the novels you know it's from it's the film noir and he's just back from world war one uh-huh and he's really damaged

you know and it's like you know i think it's 1929 maybe um so it's just it's a great world hbo is putting a lot of resources into it. Have you shot it already? Yeah, we're shooting it. We're shooting it from August to January. But like my brother, you know, he does locations and stuff. He came over and visited and he was like, oh, you got a lot of toys. They're bringing out a lot of toys for this one. I'm like, oh yeah, this is, yeah, we've got six cranes today.

We had one of those things that they use at the NBA, that cool camera that goes on the, they're putting a lot into this. They like that guy. Well, I mean, Boardwalk Empire was pretty big, right? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So it's gorgeous. It's exciting.

The cast is fantastic. It's, you know, just really good thespians. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah? Who's in it?gow um uh matthew rise um um root um steven root yeah tatiana you just had him on didn't you yeah he's in it um tatiana maslany um she plays my daughter huh wow that's quite a big oh Gail Rankin

Gail Rankin who I work with on Glow oh my god yes Glow yeah yes because I'm also figuring her out too

because I'm just like wait Gail Rankin how the hell do I she's terrific she's a yeah she's she was doing Shakespeare in New York

she did she did Macbeth right with Sam Gold yeah yes yes yeah is Glow in New York or is Glow here

no it's here okay we're doing one more fourth and final okay starting in I think we start in February okay

yeah but yeah me and Gail are pals she's great she's great she's an intense actress yeah I think we start in February. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, me and Gail are pals. She's great. She's great. She's an intense actress. Yeah.

So I got to meet her. Oh, so you've been shooting since August. Yeah. That's why you're out here. Exactly. Back and forth. I'm commuting. Now you have a kid?

Yes, I do. How old's that kid? She's 11. Oh, so you're hands on. Yeah. I'm commuting. Serious's that kid? She's 11. Oh, so you're hands-on. Yeah. Yeah. I'm commuting. Serious mom duties at 11.

Big time. And you guys are in New York? Yeah, Brooklyn. Oh, well, it sounds like you got a good life going. Yeah, I do. Yeah, so just don't freak out about the one-woman show thing. Okay, okay. Just work on it. Get poetic.

Do it in pieces. Figure it out. Okay. One piece at a time. Yeah yes good talking to you you too lily taylor doesn't she sound exactly like lily taylor look out for perry mason next year and uh enjoy birds i don't think i've really put any thought into birds but now i will Look out for Perry Mason next year and enjoy Birds. I don't think I've really put any thought into Birds, but now I will. I do.

You know, I can't do music. What am I thinking? I'm just going to close out, but for some reason I'm stifled by it. I'm stifled by it. I'm ready to go. Because I think now more than ever it's important to say, Boomer lives! As opposed to, okay, Boomer.

I mean, fuck that, right? I'm barely a Boomer, but fuck that. All right? Okay. Okay. We'll be right back. may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in

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