WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1074 - Mike Sweeney

Episode Date: November 25, 2019

Mike Sweeney tried on several different careers before becoming the head writer for Conan O’Brien: trial lawyer, standup comedian, warm-up comic. But it’s a miracle he was able to do any of them after growing up in a violent, unpredictable household. Mike tells Marc the truly shocking circumstances of his early life, as well as the better days doing comedy in New York City, the highs of Late Night on NBC, the chaos of Conan’s Tonight Show days, and the many hats he now wears in the Conan Empire. This episode is sponsored by Zoro.com, Stamps.com, and Pepsi. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck tuckians how's it going this is it i you know i know this is a slow week for many people in terms of work. I think people are kind of shut down.

They're shut off. They're getting ready to go. They're preparing mentally to sort of land in the chaos that they come from. To sort of go back, go back into it. Go back into the vortex. Put on your psychic helmets to enter the world of your childhood. Or maybe not. Maybe you're like, no, you know what?

Not doing that. Just going to have Thanksgiving by myself or with my family. My family, the one I'm trying to. My family, the corrective. The family that corrects it. The thing that I made to stop the madness. I made these children to stop what you did. Look at me.

I'm yelling at nothing. These kids will never see that. You did this and these kids. Right, kids? Right? Daddy's okay, right? See? I'm not going to be the same kind of person what are you laughing at

i'm not gonna be the same kind of person you were i'm fixing it this is the tone of a person fixing something ah fuck i can't get this on right. That's the tone of patience and correction. God damn it. Why won't this fit? Oh, fuck, I'm going to go back to the store. God damn it. Maybe I should take a picture with my phone. Smile.

I want to show your grandmother that i'm fixing you how's everybody doing look i don't know where that came from i do know that i am going back i'm going to the source i'm going but it's not it's not a geographical location it's a psycho geographical location it's where my mother lives in my brain i'm going to see her and uh you know that is you know that is the the scene of the crime that went on for a while minor emotional crimes in the big picture but i'm okay so i'm that's what i'm doing i'm got and i do this yeah i have done it there was a couple years i didn't do it but now we've tightened up the crew down there just family no uh no uh no stragglers with uh annoying political dispositions yeah it's okay it's all right don't go if they're

gonna bother you keep it at home it's not that big a deal but i'll let you know how it goes down there i'll do my dispatch we do do a new show every Thanksgiving, and I will do it. Also, today on the show, this fucking thing blew my mind. I've known this guy for years. I mean, years. Probably almost 30 years since we were doing comedy in New York. Mike Sweeney, writer and has been the head writer for Conan O'Brien, going back to the mid-'90s, also now he hosts the co he co-hosts the podcast inside conan an important hollywood podcast along with jesse gaskell but i i thought yeah i don't i didn't know mike swing there's so much we don't

know about people that you make assumptions about and you just sort of like that's that guy i know that guy but you don't know fucking anybody do you really people are fucking incomprehensible to quote sydney pollack again from the movie michael clayton i should i should look up the screenwriter of that thing i could do it now am i gonna do it no but you don't know you don't know people and I did not know Mike Sweeney man I mean we started talking and almost immediately I'm like what what are you talking about that is fucking crazy that I did that throughout the entire conversation so that's happening today um it's tony gilroy tony gilroy wrote and directed michael clayton one of the greatest grown-up movies of the last 20 years and his brother dan uh wrote nightcrawler i believe and uh directed that why am i still speculating i i just looked it up i just wanted

to give uh tony gilroy the credit he deserves for people are fucking incomprehensible so all right here's what's going on found out on saturday that um i won the best actor in the he home international film festival in spain i know i complained about what i thought was a a a you, not a great reaction to my comedy and that the communication barrier, the language disconnect was hard for me and I didn't know how everything landed, but I'll tell you how it landed. Best actor. And what, that's pretty great.

I am honored and I appreciate the best actor nod from the judges at the HeHolm Film Fest. And I know that as soon as I put that on my resume, things are going to take off for me. They're already taken off. I got nowhere else to go. You know, I read the entire Jerry Wexler autobiography on my trip to get into the brains and mind and heart of Jerry Wexler, who I will be playing in the upcoming Aretha Franklin biopic, though it is a slice of life

movie. It's not a full, I don't know what I can say about it, but I'm playing Jerry Wexler. Dave found out, I found out Dave Cross, a guy who I used to like, you know, I used to crash at his apartment when he was crashing his girlfriend's house back in the day, Somerville, Mass. Bill Wilson's Museum of Sadness. Rest in peace, Bill Wilson. But he's playing Jerry Wexler in a Nat Geo miniseries thing. Me and Cross are playing temperamental, compulsive, Jewish record producer.

And I think we're the only two that can do it. temperamental, compulsive, Jewish record producer. And I think we're the only two that can do it. Perhaps me and Cross will get together, after all this is behind us, and do dueling Wexlers right here. But I did read the book. I actually got an email from the writer, the guy who helped Jerry write the book, David Ritz. He also wrote a book on Morris Day

and on Aretha Franklin, but I got on the phone with him for a while, talked about Wexler. I got some interviews on my phone so I can hear how he talks, so I can get it right. I don't want to do it in injustice because it's a big opportunity for me. And, you know, this is a guy that comes from another generation from New York. He's of a generation of Jews that talk like this. But he's also a yeller. He's not going to take any shit, this guy. All right? That'd be five thousand dollars five thousand dollars i'll work it out i'm in it i'm doing but the great thing about it

about reading wexler's biography autobiography was just how it's like right up my alley because it filled in all of these gaps uh in my music knowledge it's kind of a great book i think it's like right up my alley because it filled in all of these gaps uh in my music knowledge it's kind of a great book i think it's called rhythm and blues by david uh ritz i'm excited about it so that that's that i i got i told you about the best actor thing we had a great time me and the director lady had a nice time i got an email which i think was sort of resonated with me look i understand the depth of ireland i understand the darkness of ireland the beauty of ireland the lush history of ireland just the feelings of poetic yeah just like i'm enamored with it on all levels i find it to be a very deep place and i find that i make room for

the darkness of ireland because that's part of the beauty. But it's weird how we romanticize. And I think people, I guess this is some sort of blindsidedness of entitlement, of being able to sort of romanticize, take vacations, to sort of maybe have a bit of a blind eye to what's really happening in the country you're visiting

because you don't want to fuck your vacation up. You want to enjoy the club med or whatever i don't know what that's like but you want to enjoy the nice little beach town you know right next to the city that's burning because people are fighting for their lives you know is that your problem i mean i think it's a big problem with our country in general it It's like the world is on fire. But look, can I just enjoy this pie? Thank you. I got this email and it's lengthy, but I think it's important, you know, to balance out and also to raise awareness to it. I have two, what do you call it?

Teachable moments through emails. Irish man comments on your Irish comments. Hiya, Mark. John here from Dublin, originally from Kilkenny ever played cat laughs yes i've done that twice not a great time anyway i just wanted to say that i found your take on ireland really refreshing most americans go straight to telling you about their genealogy saying that they're 80 irish or something i always feel really removed from people who say that stuff because it's like they've been sold some sort of holiday package that's coded in an Americanized idea of Irishness, like it's a fetish or something. I enjoyed the way you described the people as

embedded with the environment and also your observation on how existential the people are. I also really enjoyed how you looked into what turf is. All in all, it just seems that out of the millions of Americans who've doted on Ireland for years and years, your interest really seems to come from a place of genuine enchantment, which is lovely and really refreshing. But I guess when I hear Americans talk about how nice it is here, my stomach always sinks a bit because Irish fetishization is kind of damaging in that it greatly distracts from the other side of what's going on in this country. It's a complicated island. Yes, it's extremely rich with scenery and culture, which I cherish, but a lot of that has come at a serious cost. It's important to me that we highlight

Ireland as a place that is also deeply traumatized. Our nation was established under a type of corporate Catholicism that absolutely obliterated the country's mental health all the way up until the early 2000s. Our current leaders are bulldozing our cultural quarters with hotel chains, and there's an increasing number of 10,000 homeless people on this island. Families are living out of hotel rooms, emergency accommodations, and we have a thing here called direct provision, which is essentially a prison for refugees. I know it's possible that I sound like a conspiracy nut to you, but this stuff is common knowledge here in Ireland. It's on the news and in the papers every day. These subjects are part of the fiber to which our modern culture is reaching to and basing our art on. I'm not asking you to wallow in despair. I'm not trying

to kill your idea of the place. Ireland is beautiful and special and worth the bad weather. If anything, I'd like to enrich your fascination of the country by encouraging you and your listeners to look deeper than the scenery and how nice we all are. We're nice for a reason. Love your podcast, John. I don't have to say his last name. P.S. It's pronounced Dun-ee-gall. his last name. P.S. It's pronounced Dun-ee-gall. Dun-ee-gall. Gall. Dun-ee-gall. Thank you, John. I don't think you're a conspiracy theorist. I appreciate the lesson. It's a nice balance. And yes, it did sort of strike a thing in me where I realized we all romanticize. We all certainly through a certain amount of entitlement turned a blind eye either from apathy or ignorance or just selfishness and i appreciate the information and i thank you

i will be sensitive to this now so this is another uh teachable moment it's gonna hurt a little bit literally it's gonna fuck your brain up q-tip eard Hey, Mark, wanted to start off by saying WTF has really helped me be more open about my mental issues with friends and family alike and given me so much more confidence in daily life through that, especially my anxiety. Hearing you talk about your struggles with strangers in an oddly charming way and your genuine interest in the conversation is very inspiring. But onto the email. You had mentioned cleaning your ears with a Q-tip, which is something I do compulsively, but it made me think of a crazy story. I met a man in Fred's Texas bar in Fort Worth who was completely deaf in one ear because one day

he was cleaning his ear with a Q-tip and he stumbled and fell into the wall of his tiny closet-sized bathroom and he punctured his eardrum with the Q-tip. Bleeding and in a lot of pain, he had to call an ambulance because he couldn't stand with the inner ear imbalance. He warned me of the dangers and now I think of him every time I clean my ears. Be careful, your Canadian fan, Jesse. So now you too will be thinking of this man

that Jesse met in Fred's Texas bar in Fort Worth, Texas. I like that detail. I like that. You know, the thrust here that the guy burst his fucking eardrum with a fucking Q-tip incident. But it's important that the sort of texture of the story, you know, the details. But he was a guy he met in Fred's Texas bar in Fort Worth. story you know the details but he was a guy he met in fred's texas bar in fort worth so that takes you to a place like anything in this paragraph other than what the fuck he fell on it and hit his not to q-tip into his head but like where's fred's bar in fort worth that sounds like

an interesting place where the guy met a deaf guy and he got this story. How'd that happen, man? What? How'd you lose your hearing? Can you say it again? I can't hear you in that ear. Yeah, what happened?

Oh, man. Oh, man. Are you sitting down? Because I can't see either i added that part are you sitting down because well i can't see either you know you see i'm blind i had a horrible accident when i was putting eye drops in uh you know i fell in my small bathroom into the mirror, and I jammed the Visine into my eye and lost an eye. And then I couldn't see clearly out of the other one, so I wanted to clear that one. It just happened twice. And I haven't even told you the Q-tip story yet. I'm starting to think I should stop drinking because it's probably not the size of my bathroom.

Am I right? Hey, folks, look, let's get on with it. My guest today is Mike Sweeney, head writer for Conan O'Brien going back to the mid-90s. I have a history with that show. I have a history with Mike. I have a history with the previous head writer. a history with that show. I have a history with Mike. I have a history with the previous head writer. He co-hosts the podcast Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast, along with Jesse Gaskell. And it was one of the most mind-blowing stories of a life that I've heard. This is me

talking to Mike Swinney. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, need and policy started only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. When we die, we control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. How do you know Ty Siegel? My son turned me on to him. Wait, how old are your kids? 22 and 25. Get the fuck out of here. But when he was like 13, he started, he was, like, they would DJ.

Whenever we would drive, they'd put together a playlist. Yeah. And he played Melted for me. Oh, yeah. Which is a great album. Sure. But it was one song from there. And so he's, and I'd be like, who's this?

Who's this? Yeah. And I kept hitting him. Big Ty Siegel guy, huh? Yeah, he was. He is. I just got Michael Cronin's new record. Oh.

I'm giving it a spin. Good. They're very different. They're friends. Yes, they're pals. They play together a lot. They work together at times. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A very different sound. Yes. I think Ty Siegel puts out a record like every two months. I can't keep up with him. I'm like a teenage girl where I like one guy. Yeah. And I'm just like, that's my's my but forget it did you buy all of them uh well i bought yeah i bought them online yeah but but no i like the last two or three albums forget so your kids are 22 and 25 yeah oh you just have two two boys oh i thought you had like seven kids. No. I mean, I'll make up five children I don't talk about.

Two boys? Two boys, yeah. Same wife? Same wife. 28 years. It's been 28 years? That's insanity, yes. Yeah.

I feel like I must have met her once. Possibly. Back in the day. You know, I loved her. She went to like, we would start dating and she went to comedy clubs three times. Three? The third time. She's like, she goes, you know what?

I'm good. And I was like, I, you are something special. Because I don't, I think I get it. Because I guess I met you, I mean, I moved to New York basically in 89. And how long did you live in New York? Well, I moved down there. I was in New York 89 and I was going back and forth from New York to Boston because I had to work for a living, but I couldn't get on a catch. So I was in New York from 89 to 93 and then back again from

95 to 2002. I met you in Boston. You did? I did. And I don't, it was, I came up from New York to work at Nick's for the weekend. Oh, right. And you know, they had a Nick's downtown and then one out in,

Yeah. All the horrible Nick's. Where Marvelous, Marvin Hagler was from. Brockton. It was in Brockton. There was a Nick's in Brockton. Yes.

So I, That was a short-lived Knicks. Well, I think I closed it. If this is who you're sending here, we're good. Was I working with you? They had an old townhouse. Right, right downtown. Where I think Paul Revere lived or something.

Right downtown. Yeah, and I stayed there one night, and you were staying in another bedroom. No. Yes. Oh, my God. what year was that i don't know 88 or 89 maybe right and we talked just for a few minutes and i you know i i don't think i'd ever stayed in a comedy i'd always heard about them right and i i was like what's he had a kid and am i start supposed to be do drugs and drink what do i do man and and did we do drugs and drink? What do I do, man?

Did we do drugs and drink? No, we didn't at all. No, yeah, I think you were very philosophical. You were talking about a book you were reading or something. I was like, oh, okay. This man is on quite a life journey. And I was like, okay, that was it. We just talked for a few minutes. How did that weekend go for you in Brockton?

Oh, man. I was with Joe Rogan. Right. Yes. And he drove me out there in like a souped up Camaro. Like 87. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

And I'd never met him before, but he was just, you know, like. Had hair. He had hair then. A little bit of hair. Yeah, he had hair. Yeah. And bigger muscles than now probably. Yeah, he had hair. Yeah. And bigger muscles than now, probably. No, he's pretty big.

But he's probably still just coming out of the kickboxing thing. He was just coming out of that. Yeah. And what I learned that weekend was Boston Comics really liked to talk about other Boston Comics. I don't know what to say. Well, he was pretty, he was pretty much like, oh, this guy doesn't,

you know, he's not into me, but, you know, I could kick his ass. And yeah, we went to Brockton and he killed there. Yeah.

Yeah. He did great. And then I did the other club and then I came back to New York. The next downtown? Yes. Yeah. I mean, look, yeah,

it was all right. Right. It was a specific type of audience but did you do like where did you come from i that's i like the overly broad question i grew up in new jersey really yeah yeah yeah part of jersey and on the new york border montville small town i went to uh bill maher went to my high school, Pasquale Hills High School, and Tom Papa. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are you the same age as Papa or a little older? No, good God. I think I'm much older than Papa. Really? And Bill Maher was, I think, two years ahead of me. That's all? Yeah. How old are you?

I'm 62. Are you really? Yeah. Holy shit. Oh, yeah. Well, I didn't start comedy until I was 28. I'm 56. I thought we were the same. Sure't start comedy until I was 28. I'm 56. I thought we were the same.

Sure. No, you're like older. I'm much older. You're a legit boomer. I'm a serious boomer. I'm a no. Five people said okay boomer to me today. Oh, yeah, today?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I caught the tail end of the boomer to the point where I have no identity. My generation has no identity. Right. 63 is just what are you? Well, we just picked up the garbage that they left. Right, right no identity. Right. 63 is just, what are you? Well, we just picked up the garbage that they left. Right, right. But people don't ask you that, do they?

No. How old I am or whether I'm a boomer. What do you consider yourself? I consider myself, it's sort of nebulous. Right. Because by the time I got to high school, everything had already happened to music. Right. And my sophomore, junior year, new wave happened.

Right. Right. And then I think disco was happening right so it was nothing you could latch on to whichever the you know the zeppelin stuff that had happened years ago like it all had already happened no until until new wave and punk came in yeah that was a scary time yeah it was like who are we i'm not wearing those shoes yeah and i thought the 80s for music was kind of bad personally yeah no i think so i i can't like i can't remember because once i started doing once i was in college yeah where'd you go to college in boston university oh okay that explains okay that explains how you ended up in boston yeah yeah but yours so 28 so you had another plan were you one of those lawyers?

I was one of the lawyers. You were, weren't you? Yeah, I was a trial lawyer for three years. Holy shit. Hold on a minute. Yeah. So Sweeney, now how many kids did you grow up with? How many kids in the family?

I thought you'd ask me how many kids I had. Not you. No. Three, I had two older sisters. I was the baby. Oh, okay. We had two older sisters. I was the baby.

Oh, okay. And I also grew up in a kind of, my mother had mental issues. And so it was pretty, like I ended up living at home until I was 26. Because of your mom? To help her out? Yeah, but also, yeah, she was like really into mind control. So. Can you elaborate? She was in the 60s.

I didn't learn this till much later. She's still around? No. Oh, we can speak for you. Yes, of course. She was diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. Really? Which we didn't know.

I didn't learn that until much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was your dad around? I just thought she was a bad impressionist. My dad was around, but he was like kind of a milquetoasty kind of alcoholic who, you know, he was in over his head with her. So he checked out. And then she would, you know, she'd get really violent and stuff. Like it was kind of a wild childhood. Really?

It was kind of cinematic. Like I think we told ourselves over kind of in a movie because it was like, you know, like I – it was crazy. Like I'd put furniture against the door at night really because i know like if she was in a certain phase she'd be coming up in the middle like two in the morning with like a butcher knife what yeah no is that crazy like we'd have to lock ourselves in the bathroom upstairs and but theatrically or did she actually hit you or yes yes you had you had to you had to move quickly you had to get out of the way it was crazy that's fucking terrible yeah yeah were your sisters old enough to at least look out for you so you got no way it was there are you if someone's

it was every man for it was kind of like we'd all rat each other out to her to gain favor, just even if it meant five minutes. So that was the mind control element? Well, I hear Kim, you know. What? Just, you know, stayed up late last night. Just mentioning it. Apropos, just the next time you're grabbing a knife,

you might want to head her away first. That's crazy. But when she wasn't crazy, she was very warm and loving. But that's really the- It was crazy schizophrenic. But that's really the diagnosis, not biopolar, like straight up multiple personality. Now they call it disassociative, I think, personality disorder, which is much more boring. Who diagnosed that in retrospect?

How do you diagnose that retroactively? I found out years later that she went to a psychiatrist in the 60s when we were little. Yeah. But no one ever shared that info with us. She wasn't on medicine? No. She had a condition where she would never admit that she did anything wrong. So she would, like, there'd be two days of, like, chasing us around. And then she'd make us, like, she'd be like, push your father out of the house. Like, she'd make us kick him out of the house all the time.

How do you kick your father out of the house? Like, you'd grab him and say, get out of here. Because if you didn't get him out, she'd turn on us. So we were highly motivated. And then we'd have to, like, wire the doors shut. Because if you didn't get him out, she'd turn on us. So we were highly motivated. And then we'd have to, like, wire the doors shut. What? Yeah, yeah. And then he'd, like, sleep in the car.

Come on. Yeah. Yeah, and he had a big job. He, like, ran. He ran. He was director of research for a pharmaceutical company. And he was mayor of our town. This is crazy.

Yeah, yeah. Are you telling me the truth? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. pharmaceutical company and he was mayor of our town this is crazy yeah yeah it was all and are you telling me the truth i'm too yeah yeah i mean oh my god one night he was sleeping in the car i think i was 12 and my sisters uh were away at college so i that from 12 to 13 i was alone with her at the height of the it was that was like a bad year. And he was like drunk sitting out in the station wagon in the driveway. And so she was like, we have to get him to a hospital. Her whole thing was brainwashing us that he was the cause of, she acted up because of the way my father acted. If he was more of a man, she'd be fine. Oh my God.

We just, you know, we were brainwashed because we were afraid of her. So anyway, he's drunk in the station wagon. She goes, we have to get him to the hospital. He's an alcoholic. Yeah. And she said, I have a plan. Let's make a little lasso, a noose. Yeah.

You sneak in the back seat and put the noose over his head and pull it so he can't escape. And then I'll get in the driver's seat and drive him to the emergency room. And you're 13. I was 12. 12. And so I'm like, I think we should maybe test this out on a dummy. Let's give this a week. I think we're rushing this.

But she's like, just do it. Just do it. So I'm like, okay. So, you know, we're like sneaking out in our own driveway. And it's like, okay, on three. And I jumped in. And, I mean, I deliberately didn't get the lasso around his neck. And then he escaped.

He did? Well, yeah. I mean, I couldn't. So then, of course, she locked me out of the house for not lassoing. And where did your dad go when he escaped? He started staying in like flop houses over like the Nanwood Hotel Pizzeria in Rockland County. Really? Yeah, yeah.

He was a mess. And then it got crazier because then he got serious emphysema and he couldn't work anymore. And my mother took him back in the house. But he shared my bedroom with me. But because she had turned us against him, I didn't. I shared a room with him. I had to change his oxygen tanks and everything. For two years, I never.

And I didn't talk to him once. What? Yeah. Because she. And then when he died, my sisters and I. And I was 19 and my sisters were like in their early twenties. We all thought, I mean, we knew underneath, oh, she's, you know, insane.

Yeah. But we, part of us thought when he died, everything would be great. And then six months after he died, she turned it all on us and we were the, all the problems. And, but she had a crazy amnesia like she would spend a night of of chasing us with knives and and yeah she'd do like crystal knock like knock all the windows out of the house with a with a pitchfork yeah crazy stuff and the next day you'd tell her what she did and she got go, I don't know what you're talking about. She would- Oh my God.

So you stayed there- She would gaslight. To your 26? Yes. But like, how are you so reasonable and chipper? Because I'm not there anymore. It's all gravy. What do you mean?

I'm like, Z. So I remember seeing the movie Carrie and they're like Piper Laurie's grabbing knives. And I'm just like, come on. When does this get scary? When does the scary stuff happen? But were you genuinely terrified all the time? Your dad was in the room with you for two years.

You didn't talk to him. You're just there wheezing. He was wheezing on oxygen. I changed his tanks. You never talked to him? Well, he didn't try to talk to... It was so bizarre. Was he drinking still?

No, he wasn't drinking. And he couldn't. He had like 10% of his lung capacity. Oh, my God. He was just on oxygen. This is so grim. It was fantastic. You know what?

I never told anyone any of this because it was like, you don't talk about what happens. And this is happening. Your mom said that? Oh, she's like of this because it was like, you don't talk about what happens. And, you know, this is happening. Your mom said that? Oh, she's like, this happened. Believe me. Trust me.

There's stuff going on behind every door on the street. I'm like, all right. Okay. Did she have a job? No. No, no, no. So when your dad is out of work and like he's dying, were you just- He got disability.

So- How'd your sisters turn out? No, they're great. They're good. You know, we became really tight because we went through it. Are they married and kids? They're married with kids. They all turned out really well.

And we're tight. And I think it's because we went through this craziness. Right. But you must have had some sort of fortitude because you seem pretty well adjusted. You always have. Right. But, I mean, that's not saying much. I mean, in a sense, anybody can.

But was there psychological trauma that you had to overcome or process? Well, when she was – she was also very loving and she was a good audience. I tried to crack her up when she was normal. And when she was fine, when she wasn't having an episode, I think she's very nurturing. And so there was some counterbalance to it and uh i i just when things were going crazy like she'd literally go down in the basement and bang on a piano at two in the morning and you'd hear the music come through the heating ducts and you knew you it's trouble it was like family the opera like you knew she was coming up in around 20 and i that's when i'd be like shit get the desk against the door

and she'd be like the door would be open and i'd be pushing and she'd be like shit get the desk against the door and she'd be like the door would be open and I'd be pushing and she'd be like right right with the knife really yeah yes do you think she would stab you yeah listen I came home once from a sleepover at a friend's house and I go up to my bathroom and I open the door it's like 10 a.m at my father's line in a pool of blood because she stabbed him and and he she punctured his lung and i'm just like ah fuck i just want to have it but you know you're just used to it's just like ah this is gonna mess up so saturday you know so you had to call the ambulance i i didn't call the ambulance someone uh but but yeah he had to go to the hospital but and we didn't i i never told

anyone any of this till i told a girlfriend when I was like 23 in New York City. And I thought I was going to get struck by lightning. Like it was that ingrained that you couldn't talk about it. Oh, really? Yeah. And what did the girlfriend do? She broke up with me. Did she really?

No, no, no. And then I was like, I've got a powerful tool to get laid with this sob story. But I don't know. But okay, so were the times that she was okay did they outbalance the other stuff uh no it got worse and worse it got worse and worse and then uh were you the only one left in the house uh yes yes my sisters i was so angry in my 20s and she also i i wanted to do comedy and i you know i was graduating from college and and she's like no you have to you that you have to go to law school and you know her

her mojo was so powerful that i felt i filled out law school where'd you go to undergrad rutgers and newark i commuted Rutgers has a campus in Newark yes my dad went to Rutgers oh he did oh okay no Rutgers and Newark is like it's a parking deck

in one building right and it was a 35 mile each way commute but I was staying home with her she's like

you can't you can't go away to school you can't you gotta you know stay here there's too much

to do here oh my god this is like Norman Bates it was a little Norman Bates-y, but I got really good commuting. I commuted with a guy, and I got really good at the toll baskets. Yeah. I got really good at hookshotting the quarter in from the passenger seat.

Right. So that was my big memory of commuting to records and to work. And I can, but- And what'd you get? What'd you study? Did you do well? You're a smart guy. The first two years I was kind of like, and then I buckled down.

And then, so she kind of filled out the applications for law school. And then I got in to Fordham in New York City, in Lincoln Center. So I went there and then commuted there on a bus, which is really even worse. And you're just staying with her and she's yelling at you. The whole time. Yeah. She's yelling at you through your 20s. Yeah, the night before I took the bar exam.

Yeah. She was getting mad because I was studying for the bar exam. It was the next morning. Right. And she was mad I wasn't paying attention to her. So she grabbed a knife and came at me. And I was just like, motherfucker. I just grabbed her and threw her against the refrigerator

and she looked like, oh my God! And she ran into her bedroom and called the police and said I was trying to murder her. Yeah, did the police come? Six police cars came. Roaring up our street. I don't think, it's the first call they got about a murder probably, you know,

in 40 years. So they were all like pretty jazzed to meet me. So, and I'm just like, I had like, I'm a bad procrastinator and I had whole subjects

I was planning to learn that night for this. The test was next morning at 8 a.m. The bar exam. In Manhattan and I was out in. The bar exam. In Manhattan. And I was out in the bar exam. It's a two-day test.

And these police, and I'm just like, ugh. So I go outside. I'm like, and then I go, don't make any moves. And I'm just like, oh, I got to get rid of these guys. I've got to talk my way out of this, get them out of here, and get back to studying. Right. So that was the goal for that night.

What did you say to him? She's crazy? Yeah. I was like, guys, please, by all means, go in and talk to her. It's in the door on the left. And yeah, but so yes, they kind of got the lay of the land. And then they were on their way. And then I went back to study torts in time for the test.

And did you pass a bar? I did. I did. And this whole time, I was like, I wanted to be trying stand-up comedy. But I was also, like when I was in law school, I was just like, well, I've got to just do this thing. Right. At law school. Yeah, and I was miserable. But, I was just like, well, I've got to just do this thing. What? In law school? Yeah.

And I was miserable. But you practiced law for a while. So then I got a job as a personal injury defense attorney, which was- With like a- It was an insurance company. Oh, okay. But I loved it. Not a group of, like you weren't on billboards with the guys, were you?

No. Were you hurt in an accident? They were the other side. Like you weren't on billboards with the guys, were you? No. Were you hurt in an accident? They were the other side. And I was 25 and I had my eyes opened to how people make up lawsuits.

Like they'd use, like some lawyers would get disbarred because they'd use fake x-rays for a client. Oh, so you worked for the insurance company. The insurance company, yeah. And then somebody would present somebody would put together the case and give it to you. Well, a lot of times I'd come in in the morning and they'd go, oh, they put a file on my desk and they go, they're picking a jury for this. You have to pick a jury. And you can learn the case on the subway. So on the subway down, I'd be like learning the file and you have to go in. And they just let me do like federal trials.

I had no idea what I was doing. And big, big like insurance fraud cases and stuff. Just you? Yes. It was insane. And once you start practicing, what's your mom doing alone at the house? Well, once I started practicing, I was like, I moved out. So I moved into

a legal sublet in New York City. Who's taking care of her? No one took care of her for years and years. She became a hoarder. Uh-huh.

And it did have a happy ending. Yeah. It really did. Like, she died in 2012 and three years before that,

she had a, she really hurt her back and she called my sisters. 2012, and three years before that, she really hurt her back, and she called my sisters. Oh, and the three of us, I didn't invite her to my wedding. My sister's eye, none of our kids were allowed to see her. It was painful. Wasn't it painful? Yeah. I was worried I'd get a call that, oh, she died in a pile of her garbage and she had been there a month and right you know raccoons were playing with her yeah and trails and and so and i was like oh that's

gonna suck when that happens that's just gonna be an open wound yeah so then what happened when she heard it back and my sisters went over there and she had to go to the emergency room and they brought her to the emergency room and for the first time ever emergency room. And for the first time ever, they're just like, ah, you might want to, when you're done with the back, check up, give her a little, I don't know if you have tests for the old brain. And they talked to her and they're like, oh, they admitted her for 48 hours, psychiatric evaluation. And they said she had a very rare condition where it's this thing where the person never

can comprehend that there's anything wrong with them uh-huh and uh and plus she was paranoid and all sorts of crazy stuff but so they put her on medicine and she had to go into a a nursing home um but but it was a nice one and um just because her back was injured but this medicine worked and she was great. She was like the good mother all the time. Wow. And so, yeah. So I started.

For how many years? Like three, three years. But I started calling her and having like, I'd hang up and just sit there stunned for 20 minutes. And it was, I never thought that would happen. Did she like, did she remember your childhood and everything? And like, no. So you're talking to a relatively new person, but she knew you were there. Oh, I mean, she'd have memory of things, but she didn't have a memory of anything going on while it was happening. I'm telling you,

she'd have this total amnesia. But like when she talked to you, she knew who you were. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes. No, when I was doing stand-up, she was like, what are you doing stand-up for? You're always a writer. You should be a writer.

You're no good at it. What are you doing that for? Really? And so then I end up becoming a writer eventually on The Conan Show. And then she's like, oh, what are you writing that for really and so then i i end up becoming a writer eventually on the conan show and then she's like oh what are you writing for stand up that's what did you what did you think you should be writing for i don't know she but that that was her that's how supportive she was but it's so funny that you honored her wishes both right that's a that's a good point i mean you know she told you to go to law school you went i did and you practice this weird law yes and you were doing stand-up at the same time

once you moved into the city you started doing second i moved into the city i started doing open mics yeah so i um some days i'd be like preparing for cross-examination. Yeah. And then running to a club called Good Times to do an open mic. Good Times? Where was that? That was 3rd Avenue and 31st Street. I don't remember that place. No.

It was gone by the time you showed up. Really? People like Randy Credico hung out there. Sure, Randy Credico. Now he's famous again. Yes, I love it. For the Roger Stone connection. Oh, my God.

Randy Credico. I used to see him in Boston. He worked at Air America. Yes, I love it. For the Roger Stone connection. Oh, my God. Randy Credico. I used to see him in Boston. He worked at Air America. Yep. Him and his, like, he'd do one political joke, and he goes, what do you want, impressions? Yep, yep, yep. And he'd do Popeye. Popeye selling drugs in Washington Square Park.

And then he'd go back to, all right, here's the postmaster general of the Sandinista government. And no one laughs. Oh, here's Popeye orgasming. Okay. I always loved him when I met him he was going out with Joey Heatherton do you remember

oh man yeah he was and now he's like the key witness in the Roger Stone trial what was the other impressions he did he did

Telly Savalas okay yeah which would make he would do Telly Savalas for the Players Club shows entertainment

yeah right Telly isn't that the same thing oh i lapped it up and otto and george otto and george were at good times oh really yeah did you ever work with him uh sure i i i worked with him once but i interviewed him you did no i interviewed i had them on a live show where because i i went and found otto and george and had them on the live show because i had a woman who had made a robot that talked, that did stand-up. So I'm like, I figured this would be an interesting pairing, the woman who made the robot and programmed it to do stand-up and Otto and his puppet. Yeah. And it was sort of interesting.

It may have been a high-minded idea, but I think it came off. But who else was around then? So you started in 1980. It was like early 86. Right. And then I quit my law job on August 1st, 1986. I remember that date. I had no money saved, but I had an illegal sublet.

My rent was really low. So your mother lived to 2012? Yes. So she actually was able to see you on TV and to make the judgment about your stand-up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she didn't come see you do stand-up, did she? She did come once, and I think I canceled or something. Because I remember there was that time, so 86, so you quit your job, and now you're doing stand-up.

Because you were great stand-up. I thought you were very funny. Oh, thanks. I always enjoyed watching you I liked you were one of those guys you know you had your bits but you were always like hilarious crowd work I like talking in the audience yeah so the improvisational trip was always uh uh exciting to watch well that was more interesting to me I mean I I like writing jokes and having them work but I I think I was just lazy about writing really yeah

like i'd be like i'm gonna write today i'm gonna write today and then it's like eight o'clock and i had like four sets and it's like okay i'm gonna kind of just jerk around with the crowd all right so but once at 86 so like how does that that part of the career unfold i mean do you do because we all did those shows sure that caroline's comedy hour right but that's 89 so by then you're doing it it's not that much later it's well three years yeah I mean we all did those shows when we were like two or three years in right and even you have the improv yeah yes I'd come out here to do evening at them 89 89 929 exactly and we're like but you really think about it worst yeah but like we're the a list right how many something central you did

that yeah who'd you open for they used to put the the the big guy first and Think about it. A-list. Yeah, but like the A-list, right. Comedy Central. You did that? Yeah. Who'd you open for? They used to put the big guy first, and then you'd follow that guy. Yes. Mine was Amazing Jonathan. They had to clean up blood and a severed arm before I went out. We'll bring you up in a minute. We're cleaning up the blood. Was Richard Lewis hosting?

No, it was Sandra Bernhardt. Sandra Bernhardt. Sandra Bernhardt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had Richard. Drunk Richard. You know, I can't remember who it was. You can't remember who did it? They put the big guy first.

Yeah. It was weird. It was fine, though. It was fine. It's a nice set. But wasn't The Amazing Jonathan like a magic comedy? Yeah, yeah. No, but it was all weirdo.

Right. His closing bit was he cut his arm off. Oh. That's why there was blood everywhere. Oh. He cut his arm off. I thought that was your way of saying he killed. No, he did kill.

He cut his arm off. How's that going to lose? It looked real. And now Marc Maron. And did they bring you up immediately? I don't know. I was in a borrowed jacket. I got the thing the day before I taped it,

and I was staying at some publicist's house who I was fucking. She lent me her roommate's jacket i always love when hosts are like like someone destroys and they're and they're a total chicken they're just like i'm just gonna bring up the next day it's like oh thanks a lot do your job thank you quench the palate, you fuck. Maybe 30 seconds. Oh, my God. Hey, let's keep it going. No, let's not. No. Make them forget that. I don't think it was that terrible. I feel like I watched it pretty recently.

I'm sure it was great. But in your mind, it sounds like a scary situation. But look, I've watched my Evening at the Improvs from 89, 91. Yeah. And the Carolines. Right. I couldn't watch them for years, but I really do. Right, right, right.

I get this idea for some reason that I wasn't me, but I was me. I can see me in there. Yeah, of course. I was slower and more deliberate and maybe more nervous. Oh, do you feel like you were slower back then? Well, I was trying to do jokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean.

Right. I remember you corrected me on a joke and it was so embarrassing what what are you talking two times wait it was really dumb it was one joke i i corrected you on a joke yeah thank god well i it was like because i always thought you were so smart yeah i used to do this big closer yeah and it's so embarrassing dude it was like uh you know the second coming world tour. Yeah. The King of Beers brings you the King of Kings.

Oh, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And for some reason, I was saying a 52-state tour. And you're like, are there two extra states? And I'm like, do I have that wrong? It's 50 states.

You're right. And then the other one was- It's nice of you to say I'm smart, but knowing there are only 50 states, I don't know if that sets me apart from a lot of people. I don't know why I got into my- Are you sure it was me? Yeah. I don't know why I got into my-

Okay. I kept just thinking for some reason Hawaii and Alaska were 51 and 52. I would have kept adding states. It gets better and better. I just made it up. But yeah, that was a that was a big moment so a big moment so you're doing but you're pretty serious about stand-up and you're doing the real shows you're going to atlantic city you're doing boston that happened eventually but i

got on the comic strip and then i it's like it started getting into catch rise and star and all you know the the clubs you mentioned were they you host? You thought of as a host? A host in sets, but I kind of started doing a lot of hosting. Yeah. And then I'd start doing one-nighters. Right. In Jersey and all that. Oh, yeah.

Which I loved because- Roger Paul gigs? Roger Paul gigs. Yes, yes. And you- Go to Tony Camacho? Do the Rascals? Tony Camacho.

The Rascals. Yes, Rascals by the Shore. Yeah, the TV show. Did you do the Rascals? Tony Camacho, the Rascals. Yes, Rascals by the Shore. Yeah, the TV show. Did you do the Rascals? Yes. Yeah, I did that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a bad one.

That was a rough one. Because I watched that one and it was like right after I got back from LA and I was all fucking beat up from drugs and out of my mind. Yeah. And I was sort of, what I couldn't believe watching it.

And I noticed this, I just watched the first cut of my special for them I'd shot last week. Is that like at that time in like 88 or whenever I did that, you know, I got a day, it was a day notice to go to Jersey and tape that fucking show. I was in New York. I don't think I was sober yet.

And, but there was, I had these habits like that were comic habits. You know, like repeating something, how many couples out there, couples, how many couples we got these weird kind of standard tools. Yes. Of,

of road act shorthand. Yeah. But it was all in there. That weird repetition. Like there are these things I didn't realize I have, like I watched one last night. I do this weird impression on my show. I'm like,

I'll give, I'll do an impression now of, uh, of where Jewish creativity comes from. Right. and then i repeat it like okay impression of jewish creativity and i'm like where did those that is old school right very old school isn't it weird yeah that's like i didn't like my jokes but all that shit was intact right presentation was solid yeah you had weird it's very. So you did all that stuff? I did all that stuff.

And yeah, and then I just, yeah, I'd do those one-nighters and some colleges. And I would take anything for money because it was my sole source income. So I'd do bachelor parties. You did? Yeah. But you weren't afraid of that because it kind of engaged your primary skill set, which was crowd work, right? Right.

But I also thought it was a macho thing. Oh, yeah? Were you like that? You had something to prove? I have to take any gig I'm offered. Oh, yeah. Of course. And I have to do well at it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I guess it's macho, but it's also like paying your dues. Right, I told all that stuff. Yeah, I should be able to do this anywhere, anytime. Exactly. Yeah. If I'm really, if this is really my calling.

Yeah, and like all the best guys did this shit. You got to get through this. I hated it. Like I'd go do it. It was so scary. I was so full of anxiety. Do what? Like what do you tell them?

Well, any of these shitty gigs. Yeah. Because my act was so specific. It was not like what any of these shitty gigs yeah because my act was so specific it was not like a party show right yeah i'm not the guy you want to bar mitzvah hey about to get married here's mark yeah no you know and i knew that there was nothing i could do to change that right but i'd still go do these fucking yeah yeah well it's a learning it's like dating i don't know how i got through it yeah like i look back on it i'm like i don't know how the kid i was back then got through that shit right any of that living in boston doing

all those one-nighters i did one-nighters for years up there yeah that's it's the one-nighters broke i like a few of them where i'm just like just comics who i didn't think were great were like the headliner and sure all that and I'm just and then I just said I'm just gonna stay in New York City and then I just stayed in New York City and that's why in order to stay in New York City I started taking bachelor part like yeah or you didn't go do like road work like headlining your uh a little bit yeah yeah yeah no no i never sometimes sometimes but uh but not a ton of it colleges i did a fair amount of colleges oh yeah yeah i did a lot of colleges you did naca and i did naca i remember who was your manager uh the abrahamsons

did you know them yes no ohrahamsons? Yes. No. Oh. I have no idea who that is. Yes. I thought I knew everybody. They are a couple. Uh-huh. They both talked like this.

The husband and the wife. Yeah. So- And who the- I didn't know whether they were siblings or a married couple. Who else did they manage? They were really into ventriloquists. Like they-

What? Yes. For every summer, their big vacation was going to event, ventriloquist convention in Kansas. Come on. And they'd come back, they'd go, Mike Sweeney. They'd call me Mike Sweeney. Mike Sweeney, we saw over 400 vents last week.

It was fantastic. Ventriloquists? There's four. Who even knew there were 400? They saw them and we'll be back next year. We already booked for next year. And how did you get so lucky to get them? I, yeah.

Listen, it's, I mean, I lucked out somehow. And when did we, like, when was, I'm trying to think, like, because I remember we were all in, you had a pretty big part in CK's Caesar Salad movie. Oh, right. Yes. Because I did the music for it. And I remember I had to play over that scene where you have that meltdown on stage. Right, right. You know, as the emcee.

Right. With your eye makeup on, and it was just weird. And Jeff Ross had my guitar, but he couldn't play, so I had to do the soundtrack to the watch. Oh, my God. Watch the band and, band and line it up. Oh, wow. Yeah.

It was like, what was that? 89? Maybe 89. Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think Sarah was in it. Sarah Silverman.

Sure, Sarah was in it. Mark Shapiro was in it. Yeah, Rick Shapiro. We were all, everyone was in it. Todd Berry was in it. Todd Berry. Nick DiPaolo was in it. Yes.

I think, was Chuck Sklar in it? Or he was in the next one? Maybe. He starred in the next one. Right. He starred in the next one. Right. Ice Cream. Yeah, yeah. Laura Keitlinger was a,

there was a short that Laura was in. Right. That was weird. I love Laura. Oh yeah, me too. Yeah, she's great. But I remember that time.

And Chuck Sklar. Yeah, I remember that. It was so funny because you did this, I remember, I feel like I was there when they shot that because you had this meltdown on stage, right? Right, right. Yeah. I remember, I feel like I was there when they shot that because you had this meltdown on stage, right?

Right, right. I just kind of had living a song. Right. Yeah. That was wild. I've never seen that. Really? Yeah.

I wonder if it's around. I don't know. I feel like I could have it on DVD somewhere. But anyways, you were part of that whole crew. We were all part of this crew. You, me, Sarah, Todd. Todd. I remember when Todd moved from Florida. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, hey, man. Yeah. Jeff Ross. Jeff Ross. He was Jeff Lipschultz. Yeah. Yeah. And when I started in 86, the Yas 2 started, it was Jon Stewart, Chris Rock, Colin Quinn, Ray Romano. Yeah.

And those guys all just did great right out of the gate. Right. It's like, God damn it. Like Romano just, I think I brought him up like one of the first times he ever did stand up. Where? At that place? A place called Comedy U Grand. Yeah.

Which was a great club. And he just, you know, he basically was the Ray is today. Yeah. Just did great right out of town. Yeah, everyone seemed to make a, yeah, that Stewart guy made a pretty good living. Stewart did really well.

Was he Leibowitz ever? He was, yeah. For a minute, right? Yeah, yeah, for not long, for a few months. Yeah. And then there was the downtown scene.

But like when do you, but I start, I stopped doing And then there was the downtown scene. But like, when do you like, but I start, I stopped doing standup right when the, the downtown scene started. No, but I mean, you were at the Boston and you were at the cellar.

and the cellar a lot. You mean the, the alternative on 95, but like, that's right. Did you take, was your first writing job with Caroline's? Yes.

And Louis hired you. Um, or John hired you. No, it was, um, Joe Falzer falzerone well he ran the thing but who was the head writer over there oh was it wasn't john stewart the head writer once it was john stewart right first time and then louis then louis and i were writing for rich jenny when he was the host right and louis Louis, like he and Rich Jenny.

No go. It wasn't a, and so Louis would just like not even pitch. It was kind of hilarious. He didn't even try. He didn't even try. Yeah. To pitch Rich because Rich didn't like him? No, they just didn't quite get each other.

Oh, so Rich was just going to do his road material to open. Basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just was, and Louis was just like running it out. And then he left to work on Conan. Right. That was like 93. 93.

So your first job, when you get a writer's job, you're like, I'm done? No, I did that. With stand-up? Oh, no. No, I was doing that just because it was extra money and i was still doing stand-up yeah and i was doing some warm-up like a for weird shows like the morty povich show oh really yeah you did the warm-up you really did anything well yeah because like you know in the morning but even the you know paying your deucing that doesn't that's not

you know warm-up is not part of it that's not that's a job you do if it doesn't work out yeah exactly well as it turns out but at the time yeah i was like this is pretty it's easy money in the middle of the day it's a union gig too right uh oh yeah it was yeah yeah but i also did i was getting married and i was broke and we had no money for a honeymoon so i i took warm-up for aup for Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? I don't even know what that is. It was a kid's show on PBS and it was sixth graders. She was growing up kids? Sixth graders.

And then I did like some off-handed joke about a teacher looking like John Gotti. Yeah. They fired me the next day. That was it. And I was like, what's wrong? And they said, Mike, you called a man a mafiosa. the next day that was it and I was like what what's wrong and they said Mike you called a man a mafiosa yeah and that was too controversial too controversial sixth grade warm-up for PBS yeah yeah so you okay so then what leads to you stopping um oh well I

well then I uh was also I wrote for Laura Keitlinger's show on Comedy Central. When you were hosting, Jonathan Groff was writing, I think. Yeah, I pulled Groff in. For your show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, so like I pulled, it's so funny because I pulled Groff in because they, like they weren't going to give me any bits. I was in the last, the last version of Short Attention Span Theater.

Right. And I started with Groff in Boston. Right, right. And like I was, you know, I pulled him in. I gave him his first writing job. Oh, wow. That was his first writing job. Wow, wow, Wow. And so you were writing for standup standup? Yes. Really? Yes. Huh. And so we were hanging out there. At HBO downtown. HBO downtown. Yeah. 23rd street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, well, were you the only writer? Yes. I think

that's what taught you guys how to head right a little bit. It was a really good experience. Because we would be able to produce. We did some bits, some desk piece type of stuff. It's true. And we'd have to produce it. Yeah. You'd have to. They're like, this is the prop guy.

This is the costume person. Nancy Geller, Nina Rosenstein. Nina Rosenstein. I dealt with Nina Rosenstein. She's still there. Is she? She's the big shot. Really? At HBO. I dealt with Nina Rosenstein. She's still there. Is she? She's the big shot. Really?

At HBO. I have no idea. No idea. Like I never understood. You know how some comics are like, oh, well, he's running that production company and this and that.

And I was like, I don't understand the business side of these things. Yeah, me too. I still don't. I really don't. I remember meeting with some of those people being dragged into me pitch meetings ruining them bridget potter and bridget

potter i remember her yes yeah she brought me into uh new meyer or what was that guy's name uh old meyer oh my old meyer yeah i pitched a lot of meyer and destroyed the pitch in seconds well in seconds did you know were you just like it was a talk show idea and they're like well what kind of issues you want to talk about i'm like you know new you know current stuff aids abortion next yeah wow i just watched uh oh myers face drop did he just shut down oh yeah done done bridget walked me out i'm like how'd that go she's like should i have left out abortion and just concentrated on aids more you know there are many sides of it fucking give me one more shot so okay so then when do you quit and why do you quit the stand-up uh well it wasn't intentional i i um

then i got high louis uh left conan yeah and he was doing the warmup there for a couple months. 94, 95? Yeah. Late 94. And he recommended me to do the warmup. So, and I, I submitted there twice a package. They bought an idea of mine when the show started for a remote. And then they, I tried out for a monologue so you're trying

to write yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but i was still doing stand-up yeah like seven nights a week yeah a lot of a lot of sets every night and um but uh so i started doing the warm-up there and then um a few months in they were like do you want to submit again and i i was i was like okay but i i i was so nervous i wouldn't get hired as a writer and still have to go there to do the warm-up i'd be humiliated uh-huh like i would not want to go right there every day if i didn't get hired it'd be embarrassing right but uh and so they took pity on me and jonathan groff who you mentioned and i were both hired and started the same day oh yeah yeah he was hired as a head writer no we were both hired as started the same day. Oh. Yeah, yeah. He was hired as the head writer?

No, we were both hired as writers, but he was so phenomenal, he became the head writer in nine months. Why am I not remembering who the original head writer was? The original head writer was Smigel. Robert Smigel. Smigel, right. And then Marsh McCall took over when Smigel left in 94. Marsh McCall. And he really wanted to move back to California, Marshall McCall, and he really wanted,

he wanted to move back to California, LA, and do like sitcoms. I'm having a hard time remembering him. Yeah. So he was the guy that left for John

to step in. Exactly. And then John was the head writer for five years and he was phenomenal. Now who was, and that's when

you were just on the staff. I was on the staff for five years. And so you and John get hired at the same time. Who's the other writers at that on 94 show? Michael Gordon. I think Dino came back for a little bit. And Mike Stoynoff.

Kylie, Brian Kylie, who you know. Who I started with in Boston. I started open mics with Brian Kylie. Really? When I was in college in 1984. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he looked the same.

He hasn't changed at all. All upper body strength. He lived in Todd Berry's closet for over a decade. Yes. That is such a Boston comic thing about not wanting to leave Boston. Right. So he kept his wife and his family in his house in Boston. Yes. And he like had

a back room in Todd Berry's small ass apartment. Because he worked on the Conan show five days a week. And he, yes, he had like Conan would do an imitation of him like quietly reading a book on Todd Berry's toilet in the back room trying not to wake Todd up. And you'd never see Kylie. I never saw him at Todd's. I'd go over to Todd's sometimes.

I'm like, is Brian still up here? Oh my God, that's hilarious. It was just the weirdest thing. Oh yeah, he's up and he's never see you'd never see kylie i never saw him at todd's i'd go over to todd sometimes i'm like is brian still oh my god that's hilarious it's just the weirdest thing oh yeah he's up and he's in the back yeah so and brian rich and it was really funny yeah funny writer so you're just you're so you're just writing you're writing what sketches monologues and producing them like and i you know what i i loved it. I really loved writing stuff and shooting it and editing it. But it would, and because it was a daily show, we were there till like midnight every night. So I was like, I can't do, like after two weeks, I was like, I can't do standup anymore. Yeah. And it, that work, and then when I became the head writer, we were there, I mean, I

was there till midnight every night. So. But also, like, I guess on the other side of it is that you're married. When did you start having the kids? When I started looking for writing jobs. I mean, you know, I was like, I'm making. Before I was married, I was making a good living as a comedian. But it was like, I need more money.

And that's when I started looking for writing in the warm-up gigs uh so the kids came along 94 and 97 oh so yeah so then it was bit that that means business yeah family to support right and then the the conan job was so it just um the time has just flown by and but you had a good time at the beginning? Oh, yeah. It was fantastic. And you get full health coverage, your family's taken care of, writers killed. I buried the lead. Incredible health benefits.

You can't beat it, Mark. Yeah, no. WTA is good. You know what it was? I'm making light of it. And that was because I haven't thought about this in so long. It was like prior to that, I kept making light of it. And that was because I haven't thought about this in so long. It was like prior to that, I kept a book of every penny I made and I had to make my weekly nut, you know, and all of a sudden, yeah, I was getting this paycheck.

Yeah. And you're right. It was. It's crazy. It was transformative. Of course. It's like, oh, my God. And you get doctors for everybody.

Kids. Kids, whatever you want. Yeah, go see a doctor. I hope you get acne just so I can send you to a doctor. Yeah. That's how great the benefits are. It's true. Yeah.

What did you, is your wife, what does she do for anything? My wife, we moved to LA with a Tonight Show. Right, but did your wife, does she work in New York? Well, she was working in corporate communications. But when we met, we both had quit. I quit being a lawyer. She quit her day job to write fiction. And I thought she was really talented.

And I'd go, come on, come on. And she was lazier than, she wasn't lazy. She was scared. Right. And she put it off. And she was working as a telephone operator at the Waldorf. But she gave up. And then we got married. She never't lazy. She was scared. Right. And she put it off. And she was working as a telephone operator at the Waldorf, but she gave up. And then we got married. She never really tried writing.

Got married, had kids, moved to LA, and I think being dislodged from New York City and Brooklyn. And New York, there's so many writers. Sure. I think when she came out here, she felt freed up. Yeah. She went and got her MFA when she was 50.

Oh, wow. And her last short story, her teacher, Brett Johnson, who's a great teacher, said, he goes, I think it's the start

of a novel. She wrote a novel. Yeah. And it became an, it's an international bestseller. Really? Yeah, it's translated

in 26 languages. What's it called? It's called The Nest. Wow. Like they sold the movie rights before it came out i mean it was this is your first novel her first novel that's great yes and she went on book tour she went on it and i i went with her to berlin wow where like they had an actor a german actor read her book out loud in german like it it's it was crazy a crazy best it was a giant bestseller. Did you write another one?

She's working on one now. That's a great story. Yeah, it's great. I'm glad something good came out of the Tonight Show experience. Exactly, exactly. The Tonight Show. Okay, well, let's talk about that because you're there through all of this. In your relationship with Conan, you get along good with him.

Obviously. Yeah. You understand him. We're an old gay couple, I would say. And so. I mean that in the best way possible. No, I think I understand it. I took it as a good thing.

Sexual everything. Well, that's good. You know, mix it up. You know what I mean? Never a dull moment. Good for you. Living life to its fullest. Thank you.

So, but, you know, when that whole thing happened, where it's sort of this weird contractual obligation that all of a sudden, like, Jay's doing fine, but he's leaving because it's in Conan's contract. So, yes. That he gets to Tonight Show now. Yes. And that was a Gavin Pallone exclusive.

I don't, you know, I don't know who came up with that, but I agree with you. And that was a Gavin Pallone exclusive. You know what? I don't know who came up with that, but I agree with you. I can't think of anything more antithetical non-show business than to announce, you know, in five years, well, you know, so-and-so will be taking the mantle. Like, do you show businesses surprise? Like, if you made a good movie. Yeah, but what kind of deal is that? And the fact that they abided by it. Well, but then I remember getting called in after a show one night in New York. And I was like, Jay's going to – he's not leaving.

He's doing a show from 10 to 11 every night. We all knew that was not good. You know, it was just – He was going to be your lead in. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, but that was not good. You know, it was just... He was going to be your lead in. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah,

but it was doing the Tonight Show from 10 to 11 and, you know, I remember we came out to look, they were building

a new studio for us and we came out and it was the footprint of it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is too big.

Yeah. Just because, we were talking about before, like small rooms, small. Well, the old Conan studio. That's better for comedy. How much did that old studio? 198 people.

Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, it was almost like, let's get this guy Conan into an environment and a situation that is so far out of his wheelhouse. Right. Yeah. You turned over the reins to, who was it, Seth?

Who took the show? No, it was Jimmy Fallon. Oh, right, Fallon. Yeah. And then you all come out here. He moved everybody. Well, we moved out here to do the Tonight Show. Right, you and Paula and Frank and all the writers.

Yes. Kylie. The whole, almost the entire production. Everybody. Yeah. Moved out for the NBC. Yep. And it's just right from the get, right, you know, I have to assume that by week two, you're like, oh, no. Yeah. Moved out for the NBC. Yep. And it's just right from the get, right, you know, I have to assume that like by week two, you're like.

Oh, no. No. We didn't think that after week two. I mean, there were, I think, nervous jitters about starting a new thing. Yeah. But I just. Everyone was gangbusters. Like, we're doing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're the Tonight Show now. Yeah, but there was second guessing. Sure. yeah but i just everyone was gangbusters like we're doing it yeah yeah yeah tonight show now yeah but there was second guessing sure there was second guessing comedy bits and stuff where yeah oh you know that's too long and and you know for for 11 30 right well yeah at the 11 30 a little overthink that way but but i always felt like well'll just, this will all kind of straighten out naturally, given time. But then there was no time. And what was it like in the bunker? It was just in January, this call came about they wanted Jay to take over.

Or Jay do the half hour, second half hour, and Conan does a half hour. And then they wanted to start at midnight for a while and then conan's like oh that that was it i'm sorry i had it totally backwards it was jay from 11 to 12 yeah for a half an hour and he was just like uh which i it's just more dividing everything by half it just was getting crazier and crazier so it was just like they wanted Jay just to, we're just going to Jay do the monologue

and then you finish the show. Yeah, it was all just trick the people. It was all, it was all, it was just ratcheting up in terms of

crazy plans by NBC. Right, but was there chaos and sadness and anger? People were really upset and angry.

Part of me, I enjoy chaos. Really? Well, you were brought up with it. Right, right, right. So I was kind of like, oh, this is interesting. I was comfortable. And the last two weeks, we loved going after NBC. So we had a great time the last two weeks.

Yeah. That was great. So we kind of left on a high actually now when that when the show ended were you guys set up again or no

no you just sort of no one knew what was going to happen well it was like he was going to pay you for the year right right

yeah oh that's the other reason I wasn't that upset yeah and no it was just he was like oh let's go let's go on tour

oh yeah I forget just a rally the troops exactly No, it was just, he was like, oh, let's go on tour. Oh, yeah. I forget who, just a week or two. Rally the troops. Exactly. Yeah. So we put together a show, and during that, TBS, he got hired by TBS. And brought everybody back. And we all, yeah, we were back on.

Great studio over there, but now that sort of arced into this half hour thing, and now a podcast. but now that sort of arced into this half hour thing and now a podcast but so you've stuck through all this and now like

you know because the TBS show seemed fun and they were really it was a great situation over there and it felt great and the set was great

and everybody was good but you know now it's evolved into this half hour sort of thing but it's like getting support you know

he's got a podcast now you're doing a podcast as well yeah it's totally it's parasitic it doing a podcast as well yeah it's a totally it's a parasitic right it's about the conan show but it's within the family like i mean that's what there's a network emasculating on my part yeah the conan's great no no i'm kidding but no but i mean you know it's sort of like it's a it's a diversity of me it is a bit of a bit of any yeah he did a stand-up tour last year and i I went out on that with him.

You did? And what do you do on those? You just sort of punch shit up and write shit and think of stuff? It was all his own. It was kind of fun, because he'd never done actual going out on tours of stand-up. I missed this. It wasn't a musical thing? No, no.

It was just straight 25 minutes, and then there were other comics. Oh, really? Oh, I see. So he brought, then there were other comics. Oh, really? Oh, I see. So he brought – he had a few comics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he'd go on first. And he just worked up stuff, and I – Did he do a good job? He did a great job.

Yeah. Yeah, he did a great job. But, oh, going back to the half-hour thing. Like, I head-wrote until 2015. How many years total? 15 years. You're the head writer. Which is insane.

Yeah. That was crazy. Yeah. Because it's the stress. So you're not the head writer anymore? Now he's doing travel shows. So I'm kind of running those, which is a total. Finland?

Exactly. Into Cuba or whatever? Where did you go? Right, Cuba. We've been to like 13 places. Like we went to Greenland the week after Trump said he's going to buy Greenland. Right, I remember. So that's a thing you schedule in?

Yeah, three a year. Three a year. But it's, yeah, and then I work on other stuff going on at the show. Really? But I, yeah. I mean, I kind of stepped down because my wife's book was coming out, and I thought I wanted to like she was going on tour

and everything and I wanted to hang out with her and also just work a little less you know sure after all

so kind of eased yeah it's a little a little bit yeah I don't have the day I don't have the day that's why I'm here yeah

like they you have nothing to do yeah and they won't notice I'm missing until like Tuesday that's what i'll show no we actually just finished editing uh conan and gana oh really yeah we went to gana in june how was that it was great is he just doing this because he wants to see the world yes it's a total it's a total food dog well these means like uh where do you know and i just like look up luxury brochures. No, but Ghana invited us. It's a PR thing.

Come to Ghana. It was this year because Ghana, it's the year of return, which is the 400th anniversary of the slave trade. Oh, wow. They invited Conan to help commemorate it. Wow. Listen, why they invited Conan, I don't know but but it ended up being great because we brought sam richardson with us from veep uh-huh uh because his mother's gone nain oh okay and uh he's great very funny and uh you you know we we just come up with all these

segments and we have a local fixer but then we also have this serious segment you know about slavery about slavery so that's the weird difference in these travel shows is many of them have serious segments in them and you're

you're happy still yeah and Conan's okay he's great okay he's you know he's

how old's he now and all the like it's a great writing staff and we laugh all day Kylie Kylie Kilmartin Laurie Kilmartin is great and And all the writers, like it's a great writing staff and we laugh all day in Conan. Kyle Martin, Kylie. Kylie, Kyle Martin, Laurie Kilmartin is great.

And a lot of our writers are great comedians. She's great. Brian Kiley. Kylie, yeah. Andre Dubichet. I don't know if you know him. Yeah, I haven't seen him in a while. Todd Levin, Dan Cronin.

Yeah, Dan. I haven't seen him do stand-up in a while. Levi McDougal, Jose Arroyo, and our new head writer is Matt O'Brien. No relationship to Conan. Huh. Yeah. And you just kind of stepped aside. Yeah.

I did. Yeah. Yeah. But you have no desire. Like, you're not going to go into some other writing world. You're just going to take it easy. No, I'm incredibly lazy. I've always been lazy.

Yeah. And this is perfect. I mean, I'm working on these travel shows. And, you know and your wife's a big writer now yeah and your kids are vinyl collectors they're vinyl collectors are they are they working uh one works uh he lives in bushwick oh uh and he's pa'ing on a lot of shows yeah uh and he's doing great oh good yeah he's in demand. He's always working. He's in demand as a PA? He is. That's good.

Like freelance. Oh, okay. And then our other son's here in LA, and he's in a rock band. A good rock band? I love them. They're called Rodeo Clown, Our Clown, but they have a whole backstory. They were three guys on a field trip who were kidnapped by a doctor, an evil doctor, who kind of lobotomized them and makes them sing his music. Interesting.

Do they have a following? They do have a following. But when they book gigs, they write emails as the doctor. They're like, well, the boys are kind of busy right now. Oh, wow. And they have merch with the doctor's copyright on it. Oh, what a trip. So it's a whole little fantasy world.

It's a little fantasy world. And what's he play? He plays, he's really into synths. Oh, so he's a keyboard guy? Keyboard guy. He plays guitar. Oh. So, yeah.

Well, that's great. Yeah. Mike, it's great talking to you. Well, it was great talking to you. You survived. I did. I'm still barely hanging on yeah but i mean the childhood thing is completely surprising and exciting oh yeah it's one of those

things where you know you you would think the story would be somewhere you know sort of fully trauma-based but you seem to be pretty chipper about the whole thing in retrospect oh yeah well she's dead fuck yeah i'm chipper finally you're released yeah i yeah you honored her wishes which i thought was nice of you as a abused son yes exactly exactly exactly it was good talking to you okay great right what how does that guy sound so well adjusted mike sweeney the podcast is called inside conan an important hollywood podcast along with uh he hosts that with uh jesse gaskell and i got i got you know i haven't plugged in this fucking stratocaster in a couple of weeks and it just really moved me sounded It sounded gritty. Dirty.

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