WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1076 - Jessica Kirson

Episode Date: December 2, 2019

There was a point in Jessica Kirson’s life where she was living with too many secrets. She was a pot dealer, she had a hidden cocaine habit, and she was deeply in the closet. Jessica worked to unburden herself of all those secrets and found a breakthrough when her grandmother told her, at 29 years old, that she should be a comedian. Jessica and Marc talk about her therapist mom, her stepbrother Zach Braff, her ex-girlfriend Susan Powter, and her unexpected friend Robert DeNiro. She also explains what it’s like to finally allow herself to experience success. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace and Stance Socks. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Once again, broadcasting from upstairs in my house in a temporary environment. Soon, soon I will move down into the newly finished house of my podcast. It's right next door. It was a garage and now it's a house. And I'm going to move in there and bring my sound panels with me and bring all the equipment out there. I've got to get a rug first, though. Today on the show, Jessica Curson is here.

The very funny Jessica Curson, who I've known forever. And now we finally get to talk. She's an insanely funny person. And she's got a comedy central special jessica curson talking to myself premieres this friday december 6th on comedy central and will be available the next day on the comedy central app cc.com and other on-demand platforms she's also got a podcast called relatively sane i don't know if you know her but uh i'm so happy for her i'm so happy she's got this special and i haven't talked to her in a long time and back in when i remember

talking to her last she was going out with um stop the insanity lady anyways jessica curson is here and i love her it's a it's some juan jew action so what how'd it go how'd it go last weekend how'd it go on thanksgiving you got your is everybody okay do we need to debrief we should debrief probably because i talked to you thanksgiving morning but uh i haven't talked to you since and who the hell knows what could have happened? I can be honest about mine. As usual, it took two days to cook. And I did something I don't usually do, and I guess I'll share it with you. I'm of the belief that you don't cut any corners, you don't go healthy on Thanksgiving.

Fuck it. If it takes butter, if it requires butter, put it in. If it requires sugar, put it in. If it requires sugar, put it in. If it requires cream, put it in. Put that shit in there. One day a year is not the time to prove that you know how to cook healthy. Do that every other day of the year at home, not for people. And I have very consistent recipes.

And I don't usually break away, but I broke away this time. The potatoes, mashed potatoes, had two vegans in the crew. My cousin's kid is a vegan, and my mom's friend's a vegan, so I mashed potatoes, and I made them with olive oil instead of butter, no milk, just mashed with olive oil and garlic. All you've got to do is cut your potatoes up, boil them with about a dozen garlic cloves, and then strain them,

dump it all in, mash them up with like a cup of fucking olive oil. This is like 10 pounds of potatoes. And just get them nice. And then if they need to be sort of loosened up a little, add some of the cooking water. And they were great. Not only were a little, add some of the cooking water. And they were great.

Not only were they great, but they fucking went, man. I mean, unlike any other mashed potatoes I've ever made. I made 10 pounds of fucking mashed potatoes for 15 people, and there was maybe a pound left in there. They were very popular and pretty fucking healthy. Just because I wanted the vegans to be able to eat something. And then I did squash, no yams. Usually, I do the yams with the brown sugar and the pecans and the butter, streusel on top, that whole business. Haven't done that in a couple of years. Last year, I did some mishmash of yams with some garam masala.

Last year, I did some mishmash of yams with some garam masala. This year, I just kabocha squash straight up, sliced it up into small triangles, roasted that shit with coconut oil and garam masala on it and a little salt, served the little pieces. People loved it. But also, with the leftover squash, I did something that turned out to be fucking amazing. I eat a lot of kabocha squash. I don't know about you, but I do. And I steamed one. I gutted it, cut it up, steamed it, skin on, and then I mashed it with just a little bit with some coconut oil.

Just mashed the shit out of it with the skin on. So it's like kind of that orange flecked with the green from the skin, which breaks down. And just with coconut oil and a little salt, fucking great. Like, I can't wait to make it in like an hour. I'm going to make it. It's Sunday. I'm recording this.

And everything was good. People were getting older. And I was sort of at the back of my head, had my cat on my mind, LaFonda, who was here sick. And I was hoping she was bouncing back. But, you know, my mother's getting older. Her boyfriend's getting older. I kept my anger at bay. We did a nice beach day.

My brother was there with his son who fished a lot, his 18-year-old boy, my cousins, everybody. It was actually very nice. My buddy Dave came down. I met his buddy, Phil, who just got a new kidney. That was a nice day after Thanksgiving. My old buddy Dave and I got sober about three years apart. He's about 17. I'm about 20.

His pal Phil's like 36. Had a little get-together. He wanted us to meet. We were very prominent, important in his life, and we'd never met each other. So that was a nice way to spend a couple hours on Fridayiday after the beach a little clarity a little recovery talk some uh laughs but yeah man mine went okay did yours before i left i don't know how much i told you you know i took lafonda in because when i got home from my last trip to Ireland, she wasn't well. And she's got kidney problems, but I think she's had them a long time.

She also had a bladder infection, which we treated. But I was only home for a couple days. The vet told me to do subcutaneous fluids, which I did for two days, which is not easy. And while I was away, I was hoping she she was bouncing back i had the guy who watched my house feeding her a lot and i get home and she's not great i don't know not good i don't know how long she's gonna last and i know that i'm i'm just happy i'm home and i'm gonna be home for a couple weeks here and i can sort of monitor the situation and be loving to my kitty. Her brother's old, too, but he seems to be bouncing around on the medicine from the hyperthyroid.

But I guess I'll know. I'll know when to do what's necessary. But she's eating. She's drinking. She's kind of getting around. She's hanging out a bit. But she's just definitely weak. And the doc said, look, if, you know, I said, well, how am I going to know?

And he said, well, if she's got diarrhea or she's like throwing up. But she's not doing that. She's just very weak. But she's trying and she's eating and drinking and not hiding. So I should wait, right? I guess I'll try to give her the subcutaneous fluids again. It's just sad, man,

because she ain't what she used to be and it's just the way it is. I seem to have missed most of the killings or the deaths of my pets somehow or another. I don't know. But she died when I was away in New York years ago

and Boomer disappeared and while Moxie, I don't know disappeared and well Moxie I don't know what happened to Moxie my ex took her and uh I don't know Def Black Cat got ripped up but I don't know I didn't see it I guess I've just been spared that but I really want to be there for uh for Fonda and Monkey Monkey's doing fine Buster's doing good but lafonda's um lafonda is maybe on her way out and it's hard because i've spent 15 years with that fucking cat and she was a always a trip always a tricky cat tough and uh she's just breaking down as we all are but um so yeah so it's heavy it's been a heavy day today, man.

It's a heavy time between Thanksgiving and Christmas, isn't it? I don't know. I don't know how to feel sometimes. I'm in a thing now which is it feels good. I'm just trying to let things go and have a shot at being happy and being open and being trusting of another person and letting myself be in it. But you end up hurting a lot of people in a lifetime, don't you? If you take chances. If you're a free thinker.

That's the funny thing is like so many of these fucking fake alpha dudes and free thinking fuckers. So many of them are locked into some pretty old standards around male, female relationships around the idea of survivalism. You know, just because you let your brain go and you open your mind up to any renegade strand of bullshit fucking theory because you don't know the truth maybe even you weren't educated in the truth doesn't make you a free thinker you know taking

chances with your thoughts and your mind in a way that's creative you know proactive interesting honoring your own sense of personal freedom and desire and feeling. I mean, that's real free thinking, real taking chances. But most people don't want to do that because the security thing, I don't know, it wears on you. When you're out there in the world trying to put yourself together, trying to find love, trying to work through things without falling into the standard sort of trappings of regular life or the status quo, you end up carrying a heavy burden on your heart and hurting people. But it's going to be okay, folks. I'm going to be okay. It's weird, man.

You get into your 50s and you start to realize, okay, this is it. I better really try to let shit go, engage, open up, have some fun fun get a little happiness I used to think peace of mind was enough but I'm starting to think happiness might be possible yes in light of all this aging and sickness and death and heartache I think happiness is possible

and also the ongoing spectacle of a world trending towards destruction on an environmental level and just a society of strong man leaders and complete authoritarianism on another level. But the beautiful thing about everything that's going on in the world, is that there are moments where you can just say, fuck the world, what about my heart? What about my mind? What about my life?

Who am I? What do I do now? Right? Let's get some laughs. Jessica Curzon is here. Yeah. Her new special, Jessica Curzon is here. Yeah. Her new special, Jessica Curzon, Talking to Myself, premieres this Friday, December 6th, Comedy Central.

Be available the next day on the Comedy Central app and at cc.com and other on-demand platforms. She also has the podcast, Relatively Sane, which you can get wherever you get podcasts. And I love talking to her. I love her. This is me and Jessica Curzon. which you can get wherever you get podcasts. And I love talking to her. I love her. This is me and Jessica Curzon. and new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air.

This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

It's so weird. I mean, like, I feel like I know you forever. And we don't know each other that well. But there's always a familiarity, a Jew thing, a New York thing. Yeah, it's definitely a Jew thing. But I remember you from a long time ago. But you started after me doing stand-up. But I remember you when you were younger.

What do you remember? Well, I have one very specific memory about why I remember. Oh, no. No, no. I remember you were just all, you always, but you still like this. You all lit up, a lot of energy, you know what I mean? Yeah. Aggressive comedy.

I remember the first time I saw you, I'm like, holy shit. This is like the history of Jewish comedy. It's anxiety and anger. Yeah. I know. It's like it's anxiety and anger yeah i know it's like it's all there the the anger the charm the the meanness the faces yeah it's all happening all at once yeah nobody like this person jessica curse on well i purposely have always tried to be different because it it helps it works it's a part of me right well i think you're different in that. The energy and the intensity is different.

We all fall into this sort of kind of Ashkenaz tradition. Ashkenaz. I love it. You know, of Jew comedy. Some more than others. But I've always been a big sort of – I like seeing that. Yeah. I do too.

People who fall into the history. I'll tell you the memory I have is that when you were dating- I knew you were going to bring this up. I mean, I knew this is what you were going to say. Because do you remember when I found out it was her and I went so crazy? It was insane. But you were, well, we can say, right? Of course, yeah.

So what was her name? Susie Powder? What was her name? I love it. You just said Susie. Susan Powder. Susan Powder used to be on TV. Yeah.

And she stopped the insanity. Yeah. And I loved her. And then like, I hadn't seen her in a long time and then you show up at the cellar and you guys are dating. I'm like, no way.

I know, you freaked out. I did because I was, it was one of those, you know where you're, what do they call it, where you have a secret fan of somebody? Would you think I would be a big Susan Powder fan? No. Right. I mean, but she was huge.

I know. And the funniest thing was she was an exercise guru. Right. And I was a house when I was. Yeah. Yeah. It was just exercise guru. Right. And I was a house when I was. Yeah. Yeah. It was just so crazy. Nothing added up to me.

Never. I was happy for everybody, but I didn't I didn't understand how it was. I didn't either. I really don't. I went through a horrible breakup. I was with someone for 12 years and it was horrible. So I was distraught and a mess. And like it was one of those relationships

you get out of and you're like can i even wash my hair like i felt completely like i should have worn a helmet and like i was a mess and then i met her through rosie o'donnell on her cruise yeah and she was hot yeah i mean she was hot when you saw her she had dreads and high heels and she was but she was also on the other side of her fame right when i met her she had dreads and yeah high heels and she was but she was also on the other side of her fame right when i met her way other side yeah because i can't even put the i can't even get a timeline with it no and i don't remember it was way past when she was big yeah like i don't remember what year she was big but i remember like i had this guilty pleasure is what it was watching her because i she used to make me feel better.

She was on TV with The Exercise, and it was this whole stop the insanity business. Right. And I really got a kick out of her. Yeah. And then years later, there she is with you at the comedy show. And it was insane. It wasn't stopping me. This was like revving up the insanity, the two of us together. Oh, my God.

It was insane. Well, anybody who's making a living as an exercise guru whose tagline is stop the insanity has got to be out of her fucking mind. There's no way. Out of her. But so hot. Yeah. So hot.

Yeah, she was pretty. Yeah. I mean, like, that's what she gave me so much attention. She was very charismatic. So I got hooked in. I got hooked in quick. So you're on the cruise doing comedy for Rosie Singh? Yeah.

Yeah. And then I met her and I was like, I hated myself. Was she doing exercise on the thing? She was doing some classes and talks, I think. But she really hit hard with me. Like, she really went after me. Really? And then when I was with her, I was the healthiest I ever was.

I did yoga every day. She cooked me all the shit. I was just like, can you just take your clothes off? I really don't want to bend over and breathe i this is i'll do it if you're gonna have sex with me yeah but i can't and then that all ended but the exercise continued so it was a mess there was no sex but there was a lot of downward dogs really oh wait so you stayed with her after for a little while but it was you know i i after things? For a little while, but it was, you know, I cared about her, but I tried to fix her. It was crazy. You tried to fix her? Yeah. Oh boy.

Yeah. And she was trying to fix you? Everyone was trying to fix each other? I guess so. It was just, it was an insane. You both had projects going on with the other person? I'll never forget when I took her to the country club. You're going to love this. The Jewish country club. My grandmother's country club in New Jersey. And she had an adopted son and he was black. He was gorgeous. This is the best. And Susan is in like with the tattoos, the dreads, like the huge boobs, the great body. And she took her son to the bathroom.

And my grandmother looks at me and she goes, what? Did she have to adopt a black child there's so many white children that need homes i was like oh so all right so let's let's go back though because i you know like your jersey yeah i grew up in south orange new jersey south orange it's amazing place. Great memories of Jersey. Because, you know, we moved away from there when I was in third grade. You know, I didn't live there. But I fly back. So it was a big treat, my grandparents' house. So I'd go there three or four times a year.

And it always meant a lot to me, New Jersey. I have a very beautiful memories of it. Oh. I think it's an incredible place. It is, really. People make fun of it. It's like, it's gorgeous. I grew up around mountains and beautiful trees and deer.

It's gorgeous. And back when I was a kid, they had the good tomatoes. Oh, they have amazing. My mother just gave me tomatoes last week. You have to try these tomatoes. She drives with tomatoes to meet me and give them to me. They do have great tomatoes. How were they? Oh, they're just huge. And give them to me. They do have great... How were they?

Oh, they're just huge, and they're like apple. They're sweet. I know, the big beefsteak tomatoes, the Jersey... It's so Jewish that we're talking about tomatoes. Non-Jews would not be sitting here talking about tomatoes. It's a Jersey thing, isn't it? It is. It's Jersey and Jewish. But there was always fruit.

The summer was like, you know, tomatoes. There was cantaloupes. There was everything. Well, that's a big thing, too, the half a cantaloupe with the cottage cheese or the half. Diet. When I was a kid, my grandma had diet chocolate soda. Of course. Diet. I know.

What is that? What was that? I don't remember the brand. It wasn't Dr. Brown's. No, no. It was some other brand. I used to. It wasn't Dr. Brown's. No, no. It was some other brand. I used to drink that, too. It was a diet. They had coffee soda, diet coffee soda.

Yes. Oh, my God. What? I remember drinking that. It was our grandparents' generation. My grandmother had seltzer with the thing on the top. Oh, it did? Oh, really?

Yeah. My grandmother used to like that stuff, Perk. It was like a non-dairy creamer. She put it in her fucking and santa santa sanka i just said santa santa yeah i mean like you know jersey was very specifically that to me you know and i i guess it was a cultural thing i don't know did you do the florida thing too because i did what do you mean in the winter everyone goes to florida Yeah, they went there, but I didn't go there a lot. I mean, my actual mother's there now, so I go.

I don't know why they all end up there. It's God's waiting room. I don't know what it is, but I've grown to appreciate it. Well, I talk about that a lot in my act. They're the worst crowds for stand-up. No, I won't perform there. There's no winning with young or old people. There's just not.

You do a show in Florida. It's almost like, did someone make you come to this show? I say they get there at like 2 p.m. They talk about the seats for hours. You shit over there. No, I'm not shitting on the end seat. You hear them mulling around. You're doing those shows? Yes, because I have sitting on the end seat. You hear them mulling around. You're doing those shows?

Yes, because I have to make the money. I don't do them as much as I used to. But do you have a Jewish booking agent? I did. I did all the developments. You do the developments? I did them. I don't anymore, but I did a ton.

I know. After each one, I ate a live pig. It was really not. No, I'm not judging it because it's fascinating to me. Yeah, i did a ton but i didn't like even come out i mean i don't say what's really going on in front of those they'll be like why aren't you with a man and suffering you know they don't why are you making a man suffer how come they always why do they how could they possibly turn that on the like why are

you hysterical why are you making a man? What are you doing? Look it. They're all dead. We're here alone. We won. Those people have sex. You don't even know the sex stuff. Have you heard about that? It's like the highest rate.

Yeah. That's because the men are calling up hookers. Oh. And then they're spreading it to the poor ladies. That's what's happening. The poor ladies. Yeah. For some reason, I have a burning in my vagina from Samuel.

I don't know what he... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because Sam hired some fucking monster off the street. Sam hired a Russian prostitute to sit on his face. Exactly. Now you get what's left. I assume that's what's happening.

What else could be happening? I don't know. They're just all horny. I'm like, God, I don't even care anymore about sex. How are these people so... What are you going to do down there? You know, I mean, like, after, like, you live your whole life. You're supposed to retire.

You get down there and everyone's just sort of, what are we doing? You go to the beach. I don't know. They don't go to the beach. Like, I don't even think they go to the beach. They go to the pool. The big thing is, like, a card game. Like, their whole day is planned around.

I have a card game at 3 o'clock so I have to rest oh Mahjong's the big that's the biggest thing sure Mahjong your grandparents went down there? oh my god both sides went every winter in Boca? one went to Boca and one went to West Palm

oh my mother's in Hollywood for it yeah that's all the same I guess I have such like a, ingrained, weird kind of, I don't know if it's a soft spot, but there's a part of me that ran from my Jewiness, but it's just right there. I know. I'm the same exact. You cannot run from your Jewiness.

There's no way you could. How far could you run from your Jewiness? Well, you know what? Jews hire comics. There's no way you could. How far could you run from your Jewishness? Well, you know what? Jews hire comics. No, I'm just saying. I know. Do I seem really Jewish? No, but you can be Italian.

I could kind of pass because I'm a little waspy looking and I could shut it down. Yeah, you can. But it just doesn't take much to activate it. No, you could totally be Italian. Yeah, but I do have... I'm very Jewish in certain ways. Well, how do you...

You grew up in a weird big family. You don't have a wiki page, but somehow Zach Braff is like... Well, I do have... I look up your name and I'm like, how is he involved? Well, I know. It's like you Google my name

and it says I went to the premiere of Garden State. Yeah, I don't know what it is. I know. I still can't figure out. I mean, all the information was there, but I don't know what the relationship is. Okay, I'll tell you. I know. Okay, so my parents were married.

I have one older sister, okay? So I have an older sister, Jennifer, who is my full-blood sister. Okay, and your parents. Right. Two Jews. Right, two Jews. And they were never in love. sister jennifer who is my full-blood sister okay and your parents right then my jews right two jews and then they and they were never in love they met at temple university and it just worked because they were both good-looking jewish and the families got along and then my mom they got divorced when i was 13 i know bad age and then my dad married a younger woman and my mom married Zach Braff's father.

Oh. So they've both been remarried for, oh my God, 30, 35 years. Okay. And then my dad and my stepmother had two kids. So I have two halves. With the younger woman? Yes. Okay.

Yep. And then Hal, my stepfather, had four children. With your mother? No, no, with his ex. Oh, okay. So I have four steps, two halves, and one full. Yeah, he just passed. Oh, sorry.

That's okay. Yeah, so he had four kids when your mom married him. Yes. So Zach is one of them. Yes. And you were 13, so you had a relationship with these people. Very strong. We're all very close.

I'm really lucky because everyone gets along. Well, that makes all sense because he wrote the Garden State. He's the Jersey guy. Yeah, exactly. It's all Jersey. It's all film where I grew up. All Jersey. Yeah.

Oh, look at that. Everyone's a Jew. Everyone's a Jew. Everyone's a Jew. Their mother, she converted. Right. That's the one bit of information i got you did yeah that is so funny that's in his bio oh okay yeah yeah he i think he was what was he nine yeah when they got married and i didn't go that deep in like i

know thanks a lot yeah oh no no it was it's, I'm lucky because there's so many problems with so many families and everyone really does get along. Yeah. Yeah. It could be so much worse. But were you brought up, so that's like four, five, six kids and then your father had two more? Yeah.

So there's eight of you that are half, kind of half brothers or stepbrothers. Yeah. And then everybody gets along. Yeah. That's sweet. Now, were you brought up religious? No. I was brought up Reformed, so I had a bat mitzvah, but I was not.

Oh, stained glass windows and guitar in synagogue? Yeah, I had to go to... Was there guitars? Yeah, of course. There's women that are... It's like, just smelled like white fish, and the woman's like... Yeah, it's all progressive. I know.

You know, the women wear the kippah, the whole thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's how I grew up. That's nice. there it's it's all progressive i know you know the women wear the keypad the whole thing oh yeah that's how i grew up that's nice it is it's great i got it i had to go to hebrew school and i hated it yeah i did too but we were conservative you were oh wow no we weren't yeah we yeah it was just it's just weird how these things get planted in your head i just talked to somebody else about that like what does that really mean? I mean, I'm not religious at all. We were never taught that there was a God. I didn't even know the point of anything other than to pound into your head that you're a Jew.

You're a Jew. You're chosen. You learn how to read this. You can sing it for your thing. That's exactly how I grew up. You have brisket for this. You have noodle. Cultural Jews.

Yes. I just never got taught about the you know you know there's all this hebrew and like there was never anything that established a relationship with god neither at all yeah i don't know why it was there was it was around god was around but there was never like i think what the christians are like you know you're bad and you got to ask jesus to help you yeah right with jews it's sort of like, we don't know. Yeah, with Jews, it's like, you're good, just profit from it. Yeah, right, right. Try it.

You know, you're going to be, and no one's going to like you because you're a Jew. Exactly. You're going to have to work harder. Right. Everyone hates us, but we like each other. And here's some movies about the Holocaust. Right. All I remember from Hebrew school is watching Yentl.

Oh, Yentl you got? Yeah, I didn't even have a Hebrew name. I went to the secretary at the Hebrew school. I'm like, can I get a Hebrew name? She's like, oh, well, do Yiska. I don't even know why. If that's right. I don't know.

It was just a name she gave me. But your Jewish name is like your mother's Jewish name, and there's a family name. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So your grandmother, was she from, your grandparents,

were they all from here or did they immigrate or no? They didn't immigrate. No, they didn't but my grandmother was an incredible, my grandmother's the one that told me to do stand-up. Really?

I was 29 years old and she was watching me at a party. Oh, really? Sitting with my cousins. Who was your mother? My mom's mom she was like a matriarch amazing beautiful woman could she cook yes she was incredible good cook yes a great cook yeah so she did the brisket and the chicken yeah the whole thing matzo balls

yep yep chopped cabbage chopped liver the whole right okay yep so like eastern european yes yeah yeah yeah and she was like you need to be a comedian every time you're around people they're laughing i'm like i could never do that ever i would be petrified she said trust me i'm your grandmother you need to do it and i took a class i listened to her at 29 yep i was going to school to be a therapist to get a master's in social work really yeah my mom's a therapist okay so so in high school and stuff when do you come out when do you when does that happen that was very hard for me i met my first girlfriend in college in a jewish sorority this is like a porn i was a senior she was a freshman we were both

like you know long hair really pretty jewish like with the clips in the hair that whole era and i swear i don't know what happened but i saw her and I was like, she's beautiful. I'd never been with a woman. I was very confused for a long time. You were struck? Yes. You mean when you were younger, you were confused? I didn't even think about it.

It wasn't even an option to be gay. No, no one was out and gay when I was growing up. It wasn't even, you were like, oh, this guy wears a dress, but he's just weird. Yeah, right. It was not, you know, same time. No one was doing that. No. I mean, someone's like, Therese Lane.

It's like, he's feminine, but you don't think he, you know, does that. So, and then I met her. And then from that day, we just spent all of our time together. Did she know? No. So neither one of you knew you were just. No., we just spent all of our time together. Did she know? No. So neither one of you knew you were just... No. And we just would stare at each other.

Isn't that crazy? And play music in the car for hours. It was like we were falling in love, but we didn't even know it. That's wild. And I had a really... To this day, I'm the one that has a hard time accepting all of it. Like, everyone in my life is fine with it. With you being out.

Yeah. It's hard for me yeah it is it's because of the religious stuff that i hear and the you know the jesus stuff oh you mean because of being a target yes and that people don't accept it it's hard i want to be liked by everyone so it's it's hard and knowing people who are judging you specifically for that is difficult but what happened with that? So we spent months and months and months just, and I would be like jealous if she was with a boy, but I didn't even know why. I'm not kidding. I didn't put two and two together.

So nothing consummated? No, but then we went home for Christmas break. See, this is where it gets sexy. We went home for Christmas break and we were in my room and we were drinking wine and smoking pot and we started wrestling. Like there was so much tension for so it's great yeah it's like a porn i'm telling you it's this amazing and we were we were and she's gorgeous and we were wrestling and all this stuff and then we kissed

yeah and it was like it was unbelievable but i freaked out you freaked out we both did we were like okay uh that was fun and what happened it was just it was so it was what happened what just happened and i am going to be burnt at a state and who are you and this is disgusting and did you end up hating each other no we in the long run we ended up having a relationship for seven years. But I was really screwed up at the time. Because I moved to Northampton, Massachusetts. Wow. Isn't that nuts?

Because it was so many lesbians there because of Mount Holyoke and Smith. And this is so crazy. This is where you went to college? I sold pot. I went to Maryland. And then to come out, I moved to Northampton, Massachusetts, away from my family. That was the plan? Yeah.

And then she moved there, too. Oh. And I was very much... But you weren't in school there? No. I just moved there just to get away. Did you graduate undergrad? Yes.

From Maryland? Uh-huh. Yeah. And you met her freshman year? I met her. I was a senior and she was a freshman so then i had to wait it was a secret the whole time she was in college it was really hard she was there for three more years and oh and she was coming up to visit you right we would meet halfway in pennsylvania or jersey it was really horrible it's like very secret and i was lying to everybody wow when i told my my family, my sister thought I was dying of cancer.

The way I told her. She was so grateful. I was hysterical. She's like, Jessica, I thought you were in terminal four cancer. They all knew. What would you say to them? I was like, you're never going to believe it. It's horrible.

The way I set it up was? I was like, you're never going to believe it. It's horrible. Like, it was the way I set it up was that I was about to die. And then my mom's like, of course you're with her. You cry when she leaves. Like, that's not normal that you're sobbing for a week when someone leaves the house. A friend. So they all knew. They all knew. But your plan was, like like to keep it secret.

And in order to be comfortable, you thought like, well, there's a lot of lesbians at Mount Holyoke. Yes. I'm going to live there. Yes. And then I ended up selling pot. I had pot sent to me in the mail. From? This is after so much work in college and graduates.

Meaning like I had a great life. I had everything, and then I just went there and sold pot. So let's just back up. So you finish high school. You go to Maryland. To what college? University of Maryland. And you do undergraduate, what, major in psychology?

Okay, and then you actually go to graduate school? I started going to graduate school after college. No, no. I moved to Northampton. To be a lesbian. Yeah. That's where lesbian land. Yeah.

In Northampton. To scissor. Yeah. And no one scissors. It's so stupid. It looks difficult. It is. I mean, I don't even want to lift my leg. Like, it's so stupid. It looks difficult. It is. I mean, I don't even want to lift my leg.

Like, it's so... Maybe it's a rookie's mistake. Yeah, no one that's really a lesbian scissors. They just cry. We are right. Yeah, we just cry and eat hummus. We don't do it. So I moved there first before I went to graduate.

Yes. And then she- Became a pot dealer. Yes. I had pounds of pot sent to me in the mail. You're saying it like it was some sort of weird thing you had nothing to do with. You're like, I don't know what happened. Someone forced me to- It just happened out of nowhere well it happened because i wanted to

smoke pot for free and i realize it's great money and i don't have to work right so so you figured out how to sell pot yeah i sold it to the dealers i mean but it's it's insane that i did that from what i came from like it's insane that I was a pot dealer. I don't know. I've met a lot of pretty, you know, kind of... I've met a lot of middle class, upper middle class Jews that have done crazy shit. I'm sure. I don't know

what we're judging ourselves against or who we think we are. Yeah. Fucking monsters. Fucking... I am a monster. I'm out of my... There's no shortage of Jewish monsters. I know. I love a monster. I'm out of my mind. There's no shortage of Jewish monsters. I know. I love that I'm like, and I don't believe it.

Something happened and I started selling. And it just fell in my lap. Same with the lesbian thing. Where did that come from? Why am I touching a vagina? What is going on? This whole other part of you that you like to believe is you. Yeah. I want dick and I just keep being with women.

It's the weirdest thing. Oh, so you're like the supplier. Yes. Mark, I had it sent to me, pounds of it, in transmission fluid. From another Jew? From another Jew in California. I know. I know we all work together.

You're saying saying like, who does that? Why would somebody like me find another Jew who's going to send you? To do business with. My mom's like, if anything, you were an entrepreneur. I mean, I lived off of it for like four years. Yeah. I made a ton of money.

But no, you never got busted. That's good. Oh, I could. And I was so pompous about it. I literally, you're not even going to, well, this was. That's good. Oh, I could. And I was so pompous about it. I literally, you're not even going to, well, this was 25 years ago. Yeah. But I had a package that didn't show up. Do you know I called UPS and was like, where's my, can you believe how sick that is? Where's my package?

And they're like, it went to the wrong, it went to Amherst, Massachusetts, and they drove it in a cab. They drove my huge package of pot and I signed for it, opened it up, and started weighing it. It's just like, when I think about that now, I would have gone to jail for years. Yeah, you get dug in. It's not even denial. It's just like, I don't know what it is with that, where you think it's normal somehow. I did.

I actually didn't even care. And you're also around a bunch of college students who are buying pot from you. Exactly. It's just sort of like, someone's got to do this. It's a job. Someone's got to fill this role. Yes. Someone has to open the Chinese restaurant in town.

Exactly. Yeah. There has to be some Jew. How are there Chinese restaurants? I don't even understand it. And you can go to the middle of Nebraska. I don't even understand it. And you can go to the middle of Nebraska. I don't even understand it. I know.

And they all look like some place. Every time you see them, you're like, does anyone eat there? Is that just a takeout place? Who buys the food there? Yeah. It never looks inviting. No. And how did they end up in that small town?

They spread out. Maybe they know where needs a Chinese restaurant. Maybe there's like a bulletin board or something. But every town has that one Chinese. Every single town. Maybe they know where needs a Chinese restaurant. Maybe there's like a bulletin board or something. But every town has that one Chinese. Every single town. It's bizarre, man. And I think about it all the time. But it never looks like a place I want to go into.

I'm always like, how is that good? There's no way it's good. Yeah. I don't eat a lot of Chinese food anyway. Oh, me either. No, it grosses me out. I don't know why that is. Well, because I don't know what's happening with the meat.

I don't know what they're doing. I feel like it's not even chicken. But our parents' generation, our grandparents, they would go to Chinese food. Sunday night. Sunday night is Chinese food and Christmas. You grew up with that? Of course. My mom's birthday is Christmas, so we would always go out for Chinese.

There used to be a woman, I think a lesbian woman, up in San Francisco that ran a big comedy show. Yeah, I think she still does. Kung Pao Comedy. Lisa Gaduldig. Yeah. Gaduldig. Gaduldig, I think is her name.

You should go do it. There's a big room. Yeah. All Jews. I heard about it. Yeah, yeah. I did it many years ago. All right, so you're selling pot. You heard about it. Yeah, yeah. I did it many years ago. All right. So you're selling pot.

You're eating pussy. You're living up in Mount Holyoke. You're having the time of your life. Yeah. I'm having the time of my life. I was so miserable then. Oh, because you weren't out yet and back and forth. And I was a mess.

I played video games all day. I was a mess. I didn't do, I played video games all day. I was a mess. Oh, yeah. Depressed. Sitting there smoking weed all day? Yeah, just miserable. There's nothing to do up there. Nothing.

And you're not even in college, so you're just like the weird person. I was. Like, are you going to go over to her house? Yeah, we need pot. Do we have to hang out, though? Do we have to talk to her? No, I think they like to talk.

People, you know, like you, I'm sure, have always gravitated to her, even if I was weird. But I was also the codependent pot dealer. So I'd be like, do you want more? Are you okay? Do you want more? Are you okay? Like, you're getting people's lives you knew all your people yeah was it just college students or yeah it was

a lot of college students and a lot of just just random people that sold pot around the area that needed and it was gray pot from california yeah back when it was like you know before all this insanity with this is like like you know if is like. There was one kind of good pot. Oh, this is. I saw it last night. I was like, do you get headaches? Do you smoke? No.

I don't either. It's been a long time for anything. Yeah. Do you get headaches? Do you have anxiety? Do you hate your mother? Are you allergic to milk? There's all these questions now.

And I can't believe how many. Oh, for many prescription weed just all of it it's insane so what happens what kind of bottom do you hit like in this well there i hit a drug bottom because i was so miserable and but you were just smoking weed i was smoking weed but then melissa moved there my ex and i was so screwed up yeah i was just screwed up. Yeah, I was just screwed up. I was like doing drugs. I started doing cocaine and it was a secret. It's so, I didn't tell anyone. So I do it at home.

A lot of secrets. While I'm selling, there's always secrets. So you're doing cocaine. Yeah. You're a pot dealer and you're gay. And do you understand I'm a pot dealer doing cocaine by myself in an apartment. So I had severe paranoia. Sometimes the best to coke by yourself.

Well, that's the only time I did it. So no one even knew. So I would look out of a peephole for like six hours at a time. Oh, you were that kind of coke person? Oh, bad, bad. Drop it. Go on the floor. As soon as you do a line, you're like, oh, they're coming.

Good. That was me. No, it's the worst. I was like, why do you do it? Curtains, clothes. Yeah, because I was trying to kill myself. I mean, it's, I believe that- You're trying to medicate anxiety.

Right, right. Probably. And then I sent myself to rehab. Oh, good. And I went to Minnesota by myself to a gay rehab. Isn't that crazy? Was this before you came out? It was after, but I just couldn't deal with it.

I just, I couldn't deal with who I was. And did it fall apart with the girl it did eventually yes and i was supportive through all this yeah she's great she had no idea i was doing cocaine so it was a little shocking doing what were you were you trading out one of the dealers that was also selling pot sold cocaine and you were doing trade or what no but i would well yes i think with one guy i did do that but i i was in such a crazy place where i would go in my car and drive to like springfield massachusetts at night by myself to get coke like that's crazy yeah crazy like a cop once taught me it's like what are you doing

here i'm like i'm lost he's like um you're buying street coke it's i at some point did because i wanted it i needed it yeah yeah so So Coke was really evil for me. Yeah, it was definitely, oh, yeah, it's really evil. Get you in. That one was. Make you go crazy. Yeah. So you go to a gay rehab.

I like that you shopped around. How funny is that called pride? I mean, it's very original. And I walked in and I was this Jewish girl from New Jersey. Yeah. I'm in the middle of the woods in this huge rehab. And I said to them, Hi, I'm here for the rehab.

I'm supposed to get my own room. Can you believe this? I know you're going to love this. So they're like, Okay, well, you're not getting your own room. But you can sit in the waiting area. I sat there for 11 hours waiting for my own room. That's how fucking entitled I was.

And it was a huge wake up for me. Like it was just like, you're not special. You're just like everyone. When's Canteen? Do we have archery in an hour? Yeah, that's how I looked at it. Where's the

girl with the guitar? When's arts and... They were like, you can sit here and wait. And I did. And then I ended up in a room with this woman who was having the DTs. And I have to tell you, it was the scariest thing that ever happened. I'd never seen anything like it. I was sheltered.

So it was like, what is going on? You're throwing up. It was very good for me at the time. Yeah. Because I, it was right in my face. Yeah. Like this is, you're the same as her and. Right.

So how long were you there? Oh, this is such a crazy story, Mark. I was there doing really well. Yeah. For six, like I'd say five weeks. Right. And then this woman walks in. Uh-oh.

And she's hot. Yeah. And you know, you. Right. And then this woman walks in. Uh-oh. And she's hot. Yeah. And, you know, you switch the addictions. So she walks in. I see these, you know, this woman, black Irish, black hair, bright blue eyes, great body, tan. Yeah. I'm like, perfect.

Now I don't have to work on myself anymore. Right. So we had an affair at the- At the rehab. Rehab. And that's intense. Oh, my, right. Yeah, because it's like, you know, it's all you got.

You got to make everything better. Oh, God. I don't care about the coke. Give me the pussy now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we would meet at night in our rooms. Yeah.

And then we left. Like, I was doing really well. I left rehab with her and moved. Good idea. It was crazy. You're ready. Yeah, I was fine. I was fixed really well. I left rehab with her and moved. Good idea. It was crazy. You're ready. Yeah, I was fine. I was fixed at that point.

So I was completely. You guys didn't even finish rehab or you finished? No, we didn't. We didn't finish rehab. We decided we're okay. Yeah. We were just like, we're in love now. It's insane.

I know. I know. I know what you, I know, you know, I'm sure. We left. Well, when I got sober I got sober because of a woman oh yeah you knew her did you I mean I feel like you must have started with Mishnah you remember Mishnah oh yeah that's right I forgot about that so like you know she you know I forgot so I yes you know it took a long time for that to become horribly unbearable for her

but but I you know I did it I'm like this is gonna good her. But I did it. I'm like, this is going to go. I remember that so well now that you just said that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we got married and everything else. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the whole thing.

Yeah. And it's a disaster. Disaster. So how long did it take you guys to melt down? So I moved to Indiana, this Jewish girl. That's where she was from? Yes. Oh, boy.

You know, she drives the BMW, has a gorgeous house. She's gorgeous. Yeah. She got a job and everything? Yeah. She's like a financial planner person. Oh, my God. And I was like, it was-

It's all set. You're all set. Yeah. Two months in, we relapsed. I mean, shocking. We get wine at dinner. It took two months, but we relapsed together. And then we both moved to Jersey.

My family is like, what? It's always been women that have taken me down. Like, I've gone crazy from these relationships. Wait, the woman who had a life in Indiana? A whole life. You took her to Jersey? Yes. Yes. And we brought her a place.

I love this tone where you're like, I don't know what happened. I know. I know. It keeps... Because I really don't know what happened. I know. It keeps... Because I really don't. Like someone else was doing it. I feel like that. Who was that person?

I guess it's my addict. Like this other person inside of me making these crazy decisions. But you must have had some sort of charm to get her to leave her life to go to New Jersey. I do have charm. And I have been... Meaning like I've been with great women. But I have I'm it's very hard for me. I'm not great in relationships.

But and she was screwed up, too. But we end up moving to Jersey and shocking. It doesn't work out. How long that take? Not long. Like a year. And then she goes back to Indiana. Yeah. And I was always heartbroken. And then she goes back to Indiana? Yeah, and I was always heartbroken.

And then I have to get sober again. So it's like it's always been from breakups and the relationship things. When do you start graduate school? So I was, yeah, so I went back to Jersey. And then I was like, I'm going to go for a master's in social work. I mean, I don't even know, because my mom's a therapist. Right, yeah. Which is, there is so much there.

I mean, you know what Est is. Yeah. I went at 10. I went at 10 years old. My mother was a seminar leader. Did she stay in it? Yeah, she still is into the forum and Landmark and tells all my clients. Oh, my God.

Landmark, it's not easy. She tried to get everyone to do it when I was growing up. Landmark and tells all my clients. Oh, my God. Landmark, it's not easy. She tried to get everyone to do it when I was growing up. Landmark? I wanted to kill her. No, Est. I mean, it was even worse then. Yeah, I know. I know a guy.

He was in the forum, and finally he got out. I did Est at 10 years old. I was in a group. I don't even know what it is, and I'm judging it. Well, you would judge it, I think. Of course I would. I was 10, and I went with all my mom's therapist friends' kids, and they went around with a microphone, and they had,

you're going to love this, that's why I'm telling you, they had all the kids talking about their lives, and I wasn't saying anything. And I think they said, you know, what is it like for you at home? And I'm like, well, my parents fight all the time. They hate each other. It's horrible. And the next thing you know, I'm walking on a stage with a huge sign that said victim.

I knew you'd love that. If that's not going to fuck you up. What is that? Meaning it's like... I know they did that to you though? Yes. And then, yeah, that's the whole thing

is like taking responsibility. I was 10. It says everything about my life. A huge sign with marker on a big piece of paper. Your mom signed off on that? Yeah. She still to this day says the forum, the landmark is the best thing. You know, she tells everyone to do it.

We would go to like the cleaners. Were you the only one with the sign? Yes. Well, from what I remember. Of course, because you're the victim. Right. I mean, my mom is a therapist and would do a lot of therapy with me. And she was an art therapist.

So she would have me draw my feelings and then analyze them. I mean, I was therapeutized from the second. Oh, my God. Yeah. And she saw clients in the house. She's still around? Yeah. She still sees clients.

Yeah. Yeah. She would see clients in the house. She's still around? Yeah. She still sees clients. Yeah. Yeah. She would see clients in the house and there was all these crazy people that would come to the basement to see her and we'd have to always be quiet. And if I was upset about something, she'd hand me a bat and a pillow. I mean, it's that kind of shit. It's really. And wait, you have how many siblings in the house?

Well, I only had a sister at that point. But then when Zach. Yeah. But then when Zach moved in with my other step siblings, it was... I mean, Zach and I have the funniest stories about these people because there were no cell phones, so she wouldn't show up for an appointment and they would just be sitting in the den waiting and we would feel responsible for them. There was no way to reach her.

She forgot about appointments. Where was she though she was just out like she'd be in like new york city going like and someone they're like i'm here to see elaine and then they'd come and just be waiting and i'm like i'm so sorry i'm so sorry hopefully she'll be home soon there were no pagers or anything yeah so zach once went out to a party he was 20 and left the woman in the house and put the alarm on. And she was afraid to leave. She spent the entire day and night in the house.

And then my mom walked in and she was sitting at the dining room table. And she's like, what are you doing here? And the woman's like, I don't know. Your son let me in. He had to leave. And I was afraid to leave. And they had a session at like 6 at night. She was in the house all day waiting.

Where's that movie? I know. Well, we were talking about it. Oh, yeah. But it is fascinating to have a therapist see clients in the house with kids. It is bizarre, yeah. It's amazing.

All right, so you decided to go to graduate school? Yeah. Which I hated. How old were you? But you were older. I was probably 27. Yeah, I was 27, 28. So you're in and out of relationships, in and out of sobriety, in and out of all this other insanity,

and you decide, like, all right, I'm going to do that. And I hated school. I was never a student. I hated studying. Did you stay sober ever? Yes, yes, for years at a time. hated did you stay sober ever yes yes for years at a time but then i would always end like it would always get screwed up when i would get into a relationship and it would end i would go crazy and right sure start using so you're a year into graduate school and your grandmother says to do

comedy yes huh so i start doing i take a class scott blakeman no I took it with the American Comedy Institute, Steve Rosenthal. I loved doing it. I was petrified to perform. My mother took me to a therapist that deals with fears. I'll never forget this because I was vomiting, so nervous. And I remember standing across from this guy like, no, yes, like he was my father or something. And then I finally was able to do it and i you know i didn't do well but i i did it at caroline's it was sold out it was a bringer show with 35 people there right and i did well and i was like this is the most powerful feeling i've ever had right what

did he teach you though because like it was very helpful but you're very specifically uh you know you you do you have a lot you have a way of doing comedy. Where did you figure it out? Did you have comics you watched? You know what's interesting? What? I never was a fan of stand-up, ever in my life. I'm not one of those people who watched a lot of stand-up.

I watched Eddie Murphy and Cracked Up. But I was Saturday Night Live, Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett Show. That was my thing that I watched and loved. My dream was always to be on SNL. And the biggest thing was fear of being up in front of people. I was petrified. I'm talking petrified. But you're a natural kind of person who likes it.

Yeah, but still, I had never been up in front. No, of course. Of course. I was freaking out. So doing a six-week class where I got up in front of a small group and tried out material and at least had some jokes, it helped a lot. Right. It did.

And so when you got, after you saw the fear therapist, but you went, did your family come to the first time? Everyone. Everyone. My parents, my grandmother, Zach, everyone came. Is that good? They were all up front. It helped me.

It did. I felt supported, yeah. And you did good. I did well, and then I did an open mic. God, and I was, holy shit. Holy shit. I was like, oh, this is what it is, which probably made me stay in it because it was so miserable and uncomfortable.

Where was that? It wasn't a lesbian show, but it was a place called Henrietta Hudson's in New York. And it was an open mic. And there were just women heckling and people just standing around. It was horrible. Horrible. That was the second experience? Yes.

But that, I think, kept me in it because it was so horrible. Yeah? Because I like being in angst. You know, that's... Fight. Yes it because it was so horrible. Yeah. Because I like being in angst. You know, that's... Fight. Yes. It's being a warrior. Yeah.

Just, I'm used to it. It was familiar. It was... Yeah. And that's interesting. So you had to, you realize, like, oh, this is terrible. Terrible. So it's good.

And now we're... No, but also, like, but there is a sort of of like, you know, to learn how to have that sort of fuck you thing. Well, I have to tell you the most powerful, like I said, I feel is when I'm on stage and the most present. Yeah. Me too. So I've never, there's never a time when I'm that present as when I am on stage.

You too? Yeah. I don't know if I feel powerful, but I definitely feel present. I think as a woman, I don't really usually get into this woman, man, but as a woman, I feel very powerful. Yeah. Standing above people with a microphone. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if I think about it in terms of power, but I definitely, I like the feeling of the moments in between laughs where there's just a theater full of people waiting for something and I'm not doing anything. Well, that's having power over people. I mean, that's what it is. That might be the power thing. Totally. Because they're waiting for you to, you're like the leader. When you really think about it, you're like, it's like insane. It's crazy.

I mean, I said last night on stage, I would not be standing here if everything were okay. I didn't have to do this. This is a choice. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. Yeah.

Because I've become less frightened over time, there are moments on stage where i just like i'm so aware and so present of just how ridiculous it is it's so ridiculous where you just like it's like i i it's on me to do this show but like i don't have to i've said that i'm like i could go either way right now i could give you what i you know no will work or i could ruin this whole i mean it's real that's that is a very powerful thing. Sure. And I and I don't ruin them as much as I used to. I don't ruin them at all anymore. But there were times where I'm like, this isn't going to there's no way.

But I got to do it. I got to make you not like me for a minute. I've done that so many times. I mean, I have done that so many times. I love doing I like, you know, doing that and then trying to win them over again. I used to do a joke about that where I say, like, this and then trying to win them over again. It's crazy. I used to do a joke about that where I say, this is the thing I do in the audience.

I push you away and I try to get you back and I push you away and I bring you back. It's a little dynamic I call dad. That's amazing. Yeah, I do that. Because there are these people that i've heard about you know these performers are sort of like they just want the love i'm like i don't know if that's what i'm like i maybe i want it but like i don't know what to do with it first of all

i there there is that whatever they give me will never fill the hole. It is not even close to what I need to fill that hole. I don't even know if I identify it as a hole as much as sort of like, you guys, look, I know me. I don't like me this much. It's uncomfortable for me. I have to now force myself to stand there for a second and take in the claps. I swear. I say, Jessica, stand here. You deserve this.

Let them clap and, you know, acknowledge you and then walk off stage because I would run off stage every time. Yeah. It's so uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for me. Yeah. Like when they like when they clap or they. Is it?

No, no, no. Now it is still. No, no, no. I get it because like I've built a relationship with an audience. Like I think the podcast helped me understand that. It's not some random bunch. I do know that I have sort of an audience now, and I believe them for the most part. Yes.

Whatever their experience of me is not my experience of me. So if it's helping and you're enjoying it, good. I don't have to ruin it because I don't feel the same way about me that you do. I have the exact same experience. They're all like, do you know how great you are? I'm like, no, and I never will,

but thank you so much for saying that. That's what I mean. I will never take it in the way that I probably should, ever. I'm still like the guy when people would be like, great show, and I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, me too.

Are you kidding? Let me just take your experience away we really had a good time like i didn't feel like i did yesterday was better yeah i don't know that one joke didn't work in the hour and a half that one joke was just and i always find i know you everyone says this but i really do find the one guy just staring always always i will find them if it's 5 000 people and i tend like yeah i tend to like i will look at people like i've people have like written me emails afterwards like i don't know if you knew that you were looking at me but it was difficult for me you made me uncomfortable the whole show you kept looking at me do you know you oh i do the same thing it's weird i try to be aware of it like when i'm looking at somebody and i can see them so like what they're like i'm just here trying to enjoy a show

and you're like just staring i try to look up around like you don't look around me too i did that that is so funny mark i did the exact same thing on both shows last night. I kept looking around, but I couldn't see anything. In the main room? Yeah. Weird room. Have you gone on stage with the victim sign? That's such a good idea. I want to put it

in a movie or a... That's my t-shirt. Insane. But that's one of many stories of insane stuff. What was your relationship with your dad or your stepfather? Was that all right? So my dad is the funniest person I've ever met in my life.

He's hysterically funny. Your real dad. Yeah. He's very black and white. He's different. They're complete opposites. My mother is a liberal artist, hippie. My dad is old school businessman, black and white kind of guy.

And they still respect and love each other, but they just were not right for each other at all. And he was very available to me when I was growing up and took care of me. He was also very intense, very moody. Right. And my stepfather was the opposite of my father. He was like, he marched with Martin Luther King. He used to run couples courses with my mother out of the house. This is like the fucker stuff.

Yeah, right. So they'd have like a bonding weekend, sex weekend. It was so crazy. And your real dad was just pragmatic. He's like, I don't believe in therapy. Just fucking get over it. You know, so it's, they choose. Nice's so crazy. And your real dad was just pragmatic. He's like, I don't believe in therapy. Just fucking get over it. You know, so it's, they choose. Nice balance.

Yeah. You probably needed your father occasionally. Yeah, he still talks about himself in third person. Like, daddy loves you. Daddy's proud of you. Daddy's proud you just did a special. Daddy thinks you're good. Daddy's daddy.

And I'm like, this is a little odd. Really? Yeah. Yeah. thinks you're good daddy's daddy and i'm like um this is a little odd really yeah yeah well i'm trying i've i've been trying to figure out for myself what is this inability to accept love you know like what you know because i i tend to think it's because my parents were so self-involved and so needy that it feels loaded to me. Me too. Like that any love is sort of innately manipulative. I understand that. Like it's going to erase me somehow, your love.

Yes. You know what I mean? For me, it's also- What does it cost? What's it going to cost me for you to love? Yeah, what do you want from me if I accept your love? What are you going to take from me or want from me? Yeah.

Well, I think part of it also is, for me, is having, you know, parents that are narcissistic. Right. And then also, I never allowed myself to rise. Meaning, like, if I did something with my mom, I would always, like, kind of want her to win, let her win, or do. I can't explain it. I kind of took care of them in certain ways. Right. I've always felt bad talking about them a lot, been protective of them.

Right. So it's hard for me to allow myself to be the best I can be. Right. I just cut myself down a little bit so that they would shine. Huh. Yeah, because, I mean, I definitely had that thing where, you know, where they, it's almost like they install a limiter in your brain. Like, you know, how do I, you know, how do I transcend this garbage?

Like, you know, whatever the fuck they, whatever they are, you know, how do I get above that? Because there seems to be some part of their insecurity or their lot in life that is going to make you insecure about yourself. That's true. I can't quite figure it out, but it's just like you're going to only hit the level that they allow you to hit by the wiring they put in you.

As a child, that's very true for me. I wasn't like encouraged to be the best I can be and, oh, you did great on a test and then like

it wasn't like that for me. Now it's more like that, but so I just always kept myself mediocre. Right. So the comedy is really the one thing that's like

really hitting hard right now and it's very uncomfortable the one thing that's like really hitting hard right now. And it's very uncomfortable for me because there's a lot of success right now. And I'm really I'm having a great time with it. It's great, but it's incredibly uncomfortable. In what way? What is what is going on? Because I'm not supposed to be like one of the best. I'm not.

I've always kept my like I play tennis. I was always second level singles. I was always, I never let myself really succeed to my full potential. So now I'm working on it. I'm talking about it in therapy and I'm really allowing it because I've worked so hard for 20 years. I'm like, this is crazy. I have to let it happen. And you got a special.

Bill Burr produced a special. Yes. That's great. Yeah. He called me out of nowhere. It's the one thing. I'm not like, oh, I haven't gotten this and this one gets that. It's the one thing I was like, this is ridiculous.

What? That you don't have a special? I really should have a special. Yeah. Yeah. After a certain point. That was the one thing I was like, this is insane. Yeah.

There's a special called Open Mic. I know I can't. Why shouldn't everyone have one? Right. I know. I'm seeing all these people. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Well know I can't. Why shouldn't everyone have one? Right. I know. I'm seeing all these people. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Well, that's nice.

And that was spontaneous? He just called you? He did. He saw me at the Patrice O'Neill benefit. Oh, good. I do a thing where I turn around and talk to myself on stage. I don't know if you ever saw me do that. My special's called Talking to Myself.

Yeah. I mean, it's something you would really get. I'm excited. Because I turn around and I encourage myself. Am I back to the audience? I'm like, it's okay. would really get i'm excited i turn around and i encourage myself my back to the audience i'm like it's okay yeah you're gonna do great doesn't matter what these people think you need to love yourself you know like and most people get it some people think i'm having a nervous breakdown but uh he loved that yeah and de niro actually remember he saw me do that at the cellar and flipped out right and hired me to work on a movie with him right the comed the comedians, right?

Yeah, yeah. So it's artists get that, the whole inner monologue, talking to myself and trying to motivate myself. Yeah. And then we taped the special, and it's coming out December 6th. Great. It's great. That's so exciting. Yeah, it's a good story because he chose this older you know lesbian comedian it's like a

fun it's an interesting story like he he didn't it's just he chose you he knew me we were friendly right but he really tried to choose people he got a deal for three comics and he tried to choose people he thought really deserved it and were the funniest. Right. And that made me feel good. That's great. It was for no other reason than I thought I was funny. Yeah. Well, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. And it's another comedian, a respectable, funny guy.

Yeah. You get respect from him and you feel like you did it. Right. And you did. Yeah. Everything I've ever gotten, I'm not kidding, like nine out of ten things is from comics. Really? Yeah. It's usually from another comedian referring me not kidding, like nine out of ten things is from comics. Really? Yeah, it's usually from another comedian referring me.

That's sweet. It is. And live shows, like what else is going on? So I'm touring a lot now. I'm also making a movie. I'm executive producing for FX about female comedians, a documentary. It's the first movie that FX is putting, they're going to put in theaters, and then it's going to land on FX. And you're one of the people who's in it? I'm in it, and I'm producing it, yeah.

Who else is in it? Oh, God. I mean, Amy Schumer agreed, Fortune, Feimster, Sandra Bernhard, Margaret Cho, they all agreed to do it. A lot of people, Lane Boosler, Rita Rudner. Great. All differentner. Great. All different ages. Yeah.

And it's not going to be some bitch fest, you know, like, oh, it's been hard. Right. I want people to watch it and then go see female comics after. That's my goal. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. And you're touring a lot? Touring a lot.

And I started a podcast. It's called Relatively Sane. Yeah. And it's not just comics being funny that's not what i wanted to do it's more talking right and real yeah um and i i love doing it i get it i love i get that you love this right doing it for so long because it's it's funny it's like it's like gets you out of yourself you have a good time get some laughs yeah i and it's called relatively sane because it's a lot about family stuff.

I've done two with my mom. And she's a brilliant therapist. I'm talking. She really is. Oh, that's great. She still practices and she's. Did she, is she giving you any pointers? Yeah.

Like it's all her giving pointers and us laughing about stuff that happened, stuff I told you. Uh-huh. About, you know. No resentment against any of these people? I mean, I go in and out of resentment. You know, if I'm not working on myself, obviously, as you know, I will get very resentful. Right. And if I'm working on myself, I don't even think about it.

That's literally where it is. My parents have both apologized for stuff. I'm very lucky. Most people never had that. Yeah. They've both apologized and said, I never meant to hurt you or do anything. We were young. And I love them.

They're great. But now I'm a parent, so I get... Are you? Yeah. Oh my God, Mark. I have four fucking kids. What? I know. I know. I have four daughters. When did that happen? Well, I had one with my ex Shari, who's, Zoe is 13.

When was this? She doesn't live with me. This was the one, this was the one right when I started comedy. We didn't get into that. But when I was, just left graduate school and started comedy, I was flyering at the duplex in New York City and she walked up to me and that was it. Yeah. 12 years together.

And how did you have the baby? She had the baby with a donor that had all my characteristics. Yeah. So Jewish, dark hair, dark eyes. Interesting, yeah. And you can hear, it's incredible. You can hear interviews and see pictures now. It was unreal.

It's crazy. Of the donor. Yes. And Zoe is stunning. My 13-year-old is a knockout. She's an actress and a singer. And she doesn't live with me, but she lives right near me. And you get along with her?

Yes. With the mother? Yes, we all get along. I mean, it took a while, but we all get along great. I didn't have legal rights because we got married and it wasn't legal at the time. Right. So it was difficult. It was very difficult.

And then I got remarried to my wife, Danielle. Who you're with now. Mm-hmm. And we have a three-and-a-half-year-old who was born with heart disease. It's very heavy. Very. She was born with a major heart problem. Who carried the kid?

You? She did. Oh, she did. No, I never would have ever carried a child if you paid me. Right. I never once thought about it for even a second. Yeah. I never even thought I would have kids.

Okay. So we had Isabella, and Isabella we saw in the sonogram that she had- Valve problem? Yes, major. Like Jimmy Kimmel, major, major. Not a whole. So she was born with one large valve that is called truncus arteriosus. It looks like a mangled trunk of a tree.

It's horrible. So she has two major problems. She has a cow's jugular, and we have to get it replaced. She's had three open-heart surgeries and a stent. Can you believe that? In three and a half years. And she's okay right now, but she's going to need more open heart surgeries.

How old is she? She's going to be four in November. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. And then, you're not even going to believe this, but I have three month old twins. Really? Yeah.

So we wanted Isabella to have a younger sibling. Yeah. And then we go for in vitro. Right. And they're like, oh, it didn't work. And we're like, oh, God. So we try again. Now it's twins.

Can you believe this? So now. And she just had them? Yeah. Three months ago. And they're all girls. I have four girls. Wow.

It's an incredible story because I really never thought I would have one child. And you live in the city? We live on Long Island. Uh-huh. And I love it, but it's challenging. Yeah. It's very challenging. As a comic, as you know, I'm on the road.

Yeah, yeah. It's a lot. Right. Danielle had to stop working full-time because of Isabella. A lot of kids, yeah. Well, because of all the doctor's appointments and surgeries. But you're managing? And she's a therapist, too.

She's an addictions therapist. Maybe she can just start seeing people in the house. She is. Mark, this is unreal. So we're looking for houses, and she's going to see people in the house. I'm reliving my entire life. Isn't that unreal? Yeah, you're just going to make another you.

I am. Right. The same story. Four of me. unreal? Yeah. You're just going to make another you. I am. Right. The same story. Four of me. Yeah. Yeah. But they're different because my mother's very old school therapist, obviously the S stuff.

Right. Danielle deals with teens with addiction issues. So she's like, get over it. Right. Like she's tough. Right. Right. It's very different therapy.

But she's recovery based. Yeah. Yeah different therapy but she's recovery based yeah yeah oh it's good yeah she's recovering herself yeah oh everybody's recovering yeah everyone's recovering everybody's okay yeah yeah everyone no one's gonna die soon but i'm glad you're doing good this was very enjoyable i am wait so what happened with de niro like how do you know that guy you guy it's really a crazy story um because i remember that movie like i know there's a lot of talk about it you know and i know who was the woman in it oh there was a lot of people in it edie falco leslie man you know i became friends with all of them uh god harvey kytel danny devito it's an incredible story i was performing at the Comedy Cellar. He was there, De Niro, with Taylor Hackford.

They were looking for comics to be in it. And De Niro loved what I did. I'm at a gig, one of those Jewish development gigs on that Saturday. In Florida? Yep, in Florida at my father's apartment. 12 o'clock, around 12, I get a call from Taylor Hackford. I have no idea who he is. I have no clue. Even when he tells you who he is? I don Hackford. I have no idea who he is. I have no...

Even when he tells you who he is? I don't know. You have no idea who he is? Yeah, I'm like, no. So he did the thing where it's like, this is Taylor Hackford. I'm like, who? I'm like, uh-huh. Yeah, okay.

I don't know who anyone is. Me neither. I never have and I never will. I don't either. So he says... From people I know for 20 years. Me too. I don't even know who you are.

No, I really don't know who people are. It's horrible. I'm so self-involved that I don't remember names or... It's ridiculous because we could train ourselves to do it. Yeah, but at this... Who cares? I fucking hate that though. But now because I've lived so many places, it's sort of like you're going to have to

give me a time frame and a city. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or a scent I can follow. Something. Me too. I don't know who anyone is. It's so embarrassing to know people for 20 years and be like, this is...

Wait for them to introduce themselves to people. I tell people you have to introduce yourself because I don't know, remember who anyone is. It's so embarrassing. It's just... All right. So Taylor calls. So Taylor calls. He's like, this is Terrell Hackford.

I'm like, uh-huh. Okay. And he's like... No. I'm like, you're a telemarketer. No idea. And he goes, Bob and I would like to meet you on Wednesday.

And I go, Bob who? This is literally how the conversation went. He goes, Bob De Niro. And I go, okay. I have no idea what's going on.

Right. So, I'm like, okay. And they're like, we want to talk to you about being in our movie. And I was like, wow.

Like, it was crazy getting that call. It was crazy. Yeah. So, I go like, okay. And they're like, we want to talk to you about being in our movie. And I was like, wow. It was crazy getting that call. It was crazy. So I go on a Wednesday to the production office. And I sit with the two of them. And I hit it off with De Niro. I don't know what happened. I think he realized I don't give a shit. I was not kissing his ass.

To this day, it sounds insane. It doesn't even faze me. To this day, it sounds insane. It doesn't even phase me. I was like, whatever. Okay. And they were talking to me and it turned into a three-hour conversation.

Harvey Keitel walks in and he's like, Taylor, you like this haircut for the movie? I mean, it was, I thought I was on acid

or something. I didn't know what was going on. Right. But I had taught comedy for years at Gotham Comedy Club. So I told them that because he had to act like a comic who's been around for 35 years you taught over there for i did i didn't

realize that yeah they just offer classes he worked directly for chris or what i did like i worked for chris and i just loved teaching people it wasn't beginners it was people who had already been in it for a while but i just i love teaching i love to teach yeah and so i told them that and then bob just took a liking to me and he hired me to i the next morning i met him at his house his apartment and i there was a mic and a microphone and and i taught him how to do stand-up and then i met met him every morning. I became his person. Didn't he study it once before? Yeah, but not like that.

Right. And it was so long before that. Right. To make a very long story short, I ended up being involved in every scene in the movie. He wanted me there for every single scene. I was in his ear, so I was on a microphone. Right.

And he had an ear thing in and i would just make him laugh and tell him you know things to say and uh i got an associate producer credit a comedy consultant credit he paid me it was amazing it was unreal i became very friendly with all the actors and then i became the person where even when he and leslie man had a like a love scene yeah they both had me come in a room with them privately to tell them what to do i mean it was really unbelievable huh i learned so much and i kind of directed some of it was crazy yeah all from him just seeing me do stand-up that's great i know i really it it helped me want to become you know a producer and direct, like do all that

stuff. I loved it as much as I loved standup. Do you, are you guys still talk? Yeah. Yeah. I've been talking to his people recently because I want to pitch something to him because he's always like anything. I've never asked him for a thing ever.

I just did a scene with him in the Joker. One scene. I met him. You did? Yeah. But he didn't know me. You know, I don't think. But you did something with him before in The Joker. One scene I met him. You did? Yeah. But he didn't know me. But you did something with him before that, didn't you? No. No. Oh, that was the thing

because I remember seeing you and you saying I just did. Yeah, it was the Joker movie. One scene. I'm not in it much. But it was with him and I did spend a little time with him. But it was like one of those moments where I realized he doesn't know who I am. No, he doesn't know who people am. He's never seen... No, he doesn't know who people are.

No idea. He's an incredible person. I really spent a lot of time with him. And he's really silly, which people wouldn't know. He used to put... I do characters and voices, so he used to film me doing these things things that he could go home and watch them.

Right. He wanted to watch them at home. Yeah. And, uh, he's very accepting and loving, but he's, you know, has this hard exterior. Sure. Of course. No, no. He seems like a sweet guy.

It's the crazy walking down the street with him is the craziest thing I've ever. It's, it's beyond celebrity. He's like the mayor of New York, right? Yeah, it's insane. Yeah, yeah. Bobby! Yeah. Yeah, but he was so good to me and so sweet and yeah, I just, I can't even believe how

much I learned. I had to really step up and use my voice because the first day I went for filming was in Brooklyn at a deli, a famous Jewish deli. I walk in. It's Danny DeVito, Patti LuPone. Right. Okay. They played a couple. Right.

And De Niro. Yeah. And I walk in. This is after meeting with him privately for months. This is on camera? Yep. Yeah. I'm not on camera.

I'm going there to be with Bob. And Bob comes up to me the second I walk in. He goes, I need a line. I need a line. I'm doing this scene with Dennis. So I give him a line. Yeah. And then he says the line and Patti LuPone and Danny DeVito laugh.

Right. So it ruined the scene. And Taylor Hackford started screaming at me. I swear to God. He's like, you can't just... This is the first day. You can't just fucking come in the first day you can't just fucking come in here and tell you know do this this is a professional and Bob took him by the arm and said

don't ever speak to her like that if you ever speak to her like that again I'm out and that was the first day and I had a fight to get my voice in because he wanted me to Bob did yeah he would say just come in say whatever you want say whatever you want, do whatever you want. And I would, you know. In terms of helping him out. Yes. But then the producers, which is understandable, and the director would be like, God, just let us do our thing.

But he wanted me to be his voice. And I did. I mean, he was, he hired me. Yeah. Great. Yeah, it was great. Well, I'm so glad everything's going so well for you. You seem like you got your plate is full with family, career stuff, but it all seems good.

It's all good. I have to allow it. I am, but it's about me allowing it to be good. But crazy time's over. Yes, I can. I'm way over. Way over. I'm tired.

I can barely get out of bed. I know. I know. Well, I'm excited about the special. I'm excited. I think we covered a lot of stuff here. You I know. Well, I'm excited about this special. I'm excited. I think we covered a lot of stuff here. You think so? Oh, I do.

You feel good? Yeah, I feel so good. I love talking to you. You're amazing. Yeah, I love talking to you. You crack me up. Nice seeing you. You too.

See? Funny, right? Again, her Comedy Central special jessica curse on talking to myself this friday december 6th on comedy central to be on the comedy central app cc.com and other on-demand platforms and also we talked a little bit about her podcast relatively sane you can get that wherever you get podcasts and also you can go to pod swag.com slash WTF to get some of the new WTF merch for the holidays, hats, hoodies, cups, stuff, key fobs, fobs, or go to WTFpod.com and click on the merch link. Okay. Let me play some minor chords, hopefully to elevate the spirit of my sick cat Lafonda. Thank you. Boomer lives. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

Well, almost almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.