WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1084 - Shauna Duggins

Episode Date: December 30, 2019

Shauna Duggins does stunts for blockbuster movies and TV series, but at first she just wanted to entertain. She went to Los Angeles fresh out of college with a business degree and a lifetime of gymnastics experience. At the neighborhood gym, she started hanging out with a stunt crew and learned the skills that got her jobs on Charlie’s Angels, Fast Five, and Iron Man 3. Shauna tells Marc how she got the nerve to do stunts like 80-foot jumps and being set on fire, what it’s like to serve as stunt coordinator for shows like GLOW, and what stunts made her fear for her life. This episode is sponsored by American Express.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuck tuplets, if there are any out there. How's it going? I am Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. Shawna Duggins is on the show today. Shawna is the stunt coordinator for GLOW. That's how I know her.

She's the first woman to win the Outstanding Stunt Coordination Emmy for her work on that show that I'm on, GLOW. She's nominated for a third consecutive Screen Actors Guild Award for this season of GLOW. She's a stunt rock star and she's on the show today. Hope you're well. It's been a fun and relaxing few days, very disturbing few days in the world, but that's not unusual. More disturbing as a Jew when anti-Semitic hate crimes by fucking lunatics, domestic terrorists. You know, it becomes a frightening place to live. But, you know, my thoughts go out to the people that are terrified in their communities.

Shitty times. And the new year is coming. Maybe everything will change. Can I shift gears right now that's a big question that's a rough opening it's difficult it's a difficult transition to make but i've had a lovely hanukkah i've been lighting the candles which i don't do i've been engaging in the tradition but i've been encouraged by yet another non-jew girl to engage in the tradition of the lighting of the candles and saying of the prayers. And I went to a Hanukkah party at Moshe Kasher's house and Natasha Leggero, they're

married. And it was a lovely time. I'm starting to socialize a little more. I don't know. I think that maybe people just are, they make the wrong assumptions about me. They think I don't know. I think that maybe I think maybe people just are they make the wrong assumption. It's about me. They think I don't want to socialize. They think I'm antisocial or they don't want me at their house. But I've been very pleasant, very pleasant. It was a nice time. There were a lot of Jews there. The Jeff Ross anywhere there are Jews. Jeff Ross will show up if there are Jewish comedians anywhere. Jeff Ross will be there. He's like, you know, he'll be there with you. He's like some sort of strange ghost of show business.

Hey, there's Jews gathered here and they're funny people. Oh, there's Jeff Ross. When did he get here? He's always been here. Mr. Torrance, you've always been here. But it's not the Overlook Hotel. It's like some old Catskills joint. But that's my thoughts on Ross.

Some of you know that about my Jeff Ross theory. The end of The Shining where Jack Nicholson sees him where he zooms in and there's the picture from the 20s. He's always been here. Jeff Ross has always been in show business. Going back to the early 1900s, he is a Jewish frequency that is eternal. Who else was there?

David Wayne was there. Duncan Trussell, not Jewish, but he was there. Joe Mandy. It was very nice. Latkes, a lot of latkes, a lot of latkes. And other fried goods. And I made a cake, an almond cake. Did a lot of baking, but I'm through it.

I'm done with that. Now we're doing healthy foods. But I hope you had a lovely Hanukkah. Last night was the last night. I ran out of candles. Got new candles. Didn't know the second prayer. Still don't know it, but kind of bungled through it.

My brother was in town with his stepdaughter and uh he was very surprised that i was doing the candles right i being the one that was you know as far as much off the grid traditionally as uh any jew but uh we're doing it i'm doing it and uh i don't know it doesn't bring me closer to god because i don't have a god but it does bring me somewhat closer to uh the candles i don't know it was nice reminded me of when i was young is it it's there's a through line i'm back on it i'm on the the sort of mild traditional jew through line it's important now so yeah uh my brother came out with his stepdaughter and we did um i i did something i haven't done in a long time i didn't think i would

do my brother wanted to take his stepdaughter to see the dead and company the dead and co the dead and company which is basically the drummers mickey and Bill of the Dead with Bob Weir, John Mayer, a new bass guy and a new keyboard guy. So there's three of the original dead there and they're doing dead tunes. And I've heard they were good, but like I'm sort of a weird purist when it comes to that. I saw the dead a few times in my life. I had a connection with them. It runs deep. I lived with dead heads for a couple years when I was in college. I have all the music in my brain. I've done the hippie dance. I've done the hippie hippie shake. I've done the hippie jig. I know how to do the hippie jig. I've tripped on mushrooms and acid to dead music. Mushrooms at a dead show it is implanted it is hardwired into me

the dead is and i i was sort of a purist i drew a line but my brother wanted to take around they were you know wanted to stay here and then i thought to myself well hey man i'm a mid-level celebrity who works for live nation occasionally i wonder if i can make a few phone calls and get us some sort of a nice treatment and maybe get to go see it with you, get some nice tickets somehow. Work and angle. Well, I did. And we went and we, we went, we, it was at the forum.

We had the forum club experience, all the food and cakes. And there were, there were gummy bears, non-druggy gummy bears there was uh people i knew there i met you know who i met here's a weird thing guy comes up to me says his name is mike and then he says pompton lakes new jersey pompton lakes new jersey that's where my mom's from and then he says my grandmother and grandfather owned the dry cleaning business and lived across the street from your grandparents i'm like the roths yup wow he's like yeah my father was uh what's his name roth and i go one of the twins he's like yup i knew that you know that's the kind of thing that happens at a grateful dead show you meet the grandson of your grandmother's across the street neighbor so into the concert i don't do drugs anymore but there was enough in the

air there was plenty in the air and i had a great time i did the the hippie jig i rocked back and forth sang along with the songs i put my hands up in the air a couple of times i swayed um lynn was there she sat a lot of the time and looked cold and occasionally would get up. But she didn't know a lot of the songs, so she was a good sport. I'm not even sure Craig's stepdaughter loved it, but she was in. But me and my brother were just sort of like doing the fucking hippie jig, hanging out, rocking back and forth, listening to the song. And I realized, like, well, you know, I guess that's the way it goes.

I guess me and my brother got something in common. stayed almost till the very end which is rare just we skipped out right after the last song did not stay for the encore but saw all of it and I gotta be honest with you man had a pretty good time I did feel I don't know if it's nostalgia or what it was a packed house and it was a very diverse age-wise audience i wouldn't say it was diverse any other way but it was you know a lot of different ages but there's a loneliness to bob weir that he's the last of them you know he's the captain of the ship he's the bearded uh man on the bow singing those old songs that him and jerry sang for years, the boys, Phil's not there. Bill and Mickey are holding up the back end and they're in their seventies. But it just, there felt like there

was a heroic thing to it somehow. It's like, this is the hill they're going to die on. There is no other hill. They are going to keep going out there. And he sounded great and he looked great, but there was like, there was a perseverance to it there was a sort of like you know of course we're doing this of course i'm doing this it was but it felt like a living eulogy on some level to garcia and to what that band was and and what it stood for but they did a good job with everything it was a joyous event but i just saw it that bill was like you know it was sort of like this is how he's going to go out, man. It's like Dylan too. They're just out there. They're out on that stage doing it. Like they always have done it for 50 or 60 years.

And it's relatively timeless stuff. And I thought John Mayer did a great job. I didn't have the emotional connection I have to Jerry. You know, you create a whole backstory and mythology and there is one. It was, I had a good time. I guess that's all connection I have to Jerry. You know, you create a whole backstory and mythology, and there is one. I had a good time. I guess that's all I'm trying to say. I can't say that I relapsed, but, man, there was a lot of weed in the air, and about an hour in, you know, how could I fight it?

Was it going to hold my breath? So I got a freebie, kind of, and it was kind of nice. It wasn't heavy, you know, but I'm like, I feel a little, all right, kind of nice wasn't heavy you know but i'm like i feel a little all right well just enjoy it you fuck that's what i said to myself that's a that's yeah that was that that was that's what woke up inside of me wasn't the desire to do more but that that that that angry voice that pushed back on me ruining even the best of times said, enjoy it, you fuck. And I rocked and I swayed and I did the hippie jig. And I got lost, man.

I got lost in the music. Did I mention Shawna Duggins is on the show? I wanted to talk about this in terms of hurting yourself. I'm a 56-year-old man. I'm in pretty good shape. I eat pretty well. And I exercise a lot. And I almost, I had a revelation.

Is it a revelation? At the gym the other day when I was about to go into a squat. And I wasn't even doing the free weight squats. I wasn't balancing. There was a machine holding the bar. One of those ones where you get some support with the bar and i was doing heavy ones and i lifted it onto my shoulders and i just heard something in the back of my neck go it was like a dull thud that felt like a couple of vertebraes just popped

separated or something. And I'm like, that's not good. And then I waited a few seconds to see if my legs were going to go out from underneath me. And then I thought like how that would be. Like, could you imagine anything? I'm in a wheelchair because of a squat accident. And I'm not mocking anybody that that happened to. But it was at that point I realized like, how much weight do I really have to do at this point in my life?

What am I trying to do? Does my ass have to be that tight? Am I that worried about the roundness of my ass? Shouldn't I be doing more flexibility exercises, some core work? Why am I fucking squatting all this weight to where I almost broke my fucking neck? That's the revelation I had. Hey, maybe I shouldn't break my neck at the gym where I end up in a wheelchair. And people are like, Jesus, what happened to Mark? It's a squat.

It's a vanity accident. It's a squatting issue. Well, he broke his neck doing a squat. Yeah, and he hadn't even done the exercise yet. He broke it lifting the weights onto his shoulders. A squatting accident. That's horrible. Well, yeah, we're all going in for electric chair for him for

his birthday. Can you give something? I guess. We're also getting him a gym membership. Now, is that right? Is that funny? Is that right to do? Look, folks, just be careful when he's squatting that's all i'm saying watch it with the weights watch it out there in the cars on new year's so my guest today was very i'm glad i talked

to her i always liked her yeah i don't i've never talked to a stunt person before but uh shauna duggins is the stunt coordinator for glow she. She is the first woman to receive an Emmy for Outstanding Stunt Coordination for her work on that show. She's nominated for a third consecutive Screen Actors Guild Award for this season of GLOW. And she's a badass. And this is me talking to Shawna Duggins. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Have you done this before?

No. Come on. No. You've never done any mic work? No. Wow. Exciting. The woman who does the stunts has never done any sort of voiceover action.

I have not. Well, that's exciting. So how have you been, Shawna? I have been great. Thank you, Mark. You found a window of opportunity to hang out and talk to me? Absolutely. Looking forward to it.

What have you been doing? What exciting, death-defying feats have you been up to lately? I was coordinating the Jim Carrey TV show Kidding. Oh, right. I heard about that. What's the other guy's name? The old actor. Frank Langella.

Yes, Frank Langella. And Judy Greer. Oh, yeah. I love her. It's a great cast. Yeah. And then I just started, we started shooting about a week, week and a half ago, a movie called Yes Day.

Yes Day? Uh-huh, with Jennifer Garner and Edgar Ramirez. It's a comedy. Very fun family show. And you're a coordinator on that as well? Uh-huh. So, all right, let me ask you something, like, out of the gate here, as a stunt person. Because I see that, you know, I've been on a few sets but i'm i'm

not i'm no journeyman i'm no like i don't have that much experience but what constitutes the need for a stunt person because sometimes like you know if a guy just has to fall you know trip over a rug they got they bring in stunt people like what like all of a sudden like you just have to you have to pretend to fall down for in and it's, we got the stunt people here, the coordinators here. It's like, do I need that? How does it work like that? I think it depends partly on the show and partly on the actor. So, obviously, with action movies, there's a lot more.

So, a lot of times you get the time, and we get it on GLOW, where you get the time to train the actresses. So you know what they're all capable of and how good they are and what you can get from them. Sometimes you step on a show for a day and it's trip over a rug, but the director is, we don't know what the actor is. Is he going to want to hit the ground? You can't hide a pad and he wants to take it and he's in his underwear. So now is he going to want to hit the concrete? Because sometimes you get there, sometimes you get on set and they're like, no, we don't really need you.

Yeah, and that's fine. Sometimes it's been taking care of. Easy work. Yeah, you're taking care of the actor and either padding them up or helping them and figuring out what the shot is that the director wants. Right, because I had a stunt double on my show Marin. I had to stand in the middle of a street in a hospital gown holding an IV bag and two cars crossing me on either side. And eventually, they were like, can you just do it? Do you think you can do it? I'm like,

yeah, I can do it if the drivers are good. So that guy had an easy day work looking like me. Well, and sometimes it's setting it up. So you put the drivers in and you hire incredible drivers for that. And then you put the double in, get it all set up. How close can we put them? What do we need to do? And then, okay, Mark, now you step in the middle. But you'll never fail if you don't put great people in those spots with driving. Then the director will say on the day, so do you think he could now slide the car and stop right in front of him or just nearly miss him or you know they'll change that's when i'm like you know maybe we'll get the other guy in here maybe that'd be a good idea i'm too scared i'm not supposed to look

terrified right well so it just changes varies for every show but a lot of times you could get there and there'd be like well i'm glad you're here but and you just you just talk an actor through it and you don't actually need to do any stunts. And like this show, Yes Day, is a comedy. So a lot of that physical comedy is seeing the actor or the actress do it on their face. You're hoping to not use the double as much. Right. For schtick.

Yeah. It's just funnier. But there's times when you're just a backup or you're figuring it out and then you step in and help them. So how long have you been doing it? About 18 years. How old were you when he started? Five.

Okay, there you go. She was five years. It's amazing. The youngest stunt person ever. Ever. Five years old. It was before the studio said kids can't do stunts. They're throwing you off of boats, off of buildings.

So you've been doing it a long time. Yeah. I started my first big movie. It was the first Charlie's Angels. I went in and auditioned. I didn't even know what I was auditioning for. I had been a gymnast my whole life. All right.

Let's go back then. Okay. Let's figure it out. So where do you come from? You're going to get in this head and finally someone's going to figure it out. No. If it hasn't been done already, I doubt I'll do it. Maybe you're just not letting people figure it out.

Maybe that's your problem, Shauna. Maybe. Maybe all this stunt is just a defense mechanism to keep people out of your head. You could be right. There we go. So where'd you grow up? I grew up inland of San Diego in the desert, Imperial Valley. Oh, Imperial Valley?

Mm-hmm. I feel like, is that like Death Valley? Is that like that desert? It's not that desert, but in the summer it feels about like that desert. Imperial Valley. So you grew up in the California wasteland. Is that what that is? Well, it's agriculture.

Oh, it is? Yeah, a lot of farms. Yeah. And what did your family do out there? What was going on in the desert? My dad was a contractor, still is a contractor. And then my mom did several things. All growing up, she owned video stores. Video stores, like videotapes? Like before Blockbuster? In competition with Blockbuster. So you were the local video store that some people would go to because they're like, fuck Blockbuster. We like you. What's your mom's name?

Kathy. We like you, Kathy. Yep. And that's the way it worked? Yep. And then Blockbuster tried to buy her out. Really? Uh-huh.

And then she got really close to a deal and then they were going to fire all her employees and hire them cheaper. So she told them no. She stood up for the workers. Yeah. And then did they eventually put her out of business? No. Eventually, they all went out about the same time. Videos were over.

Yes. Yep. So that was her thing when you were growing up, video stores? So I grew up from probably third, fourth grade all the way through high school, working there in the summers, at night, just helping. Yeah, so that was kind of my love of movie was I watched films my whole life. Did it have the dirty section in back? Did she have a dirty section? One of them did.

Oh, she had several? She had five stores. Oh, okay. And only the first one did. And then when she bought her partner out and closed it, she didn't. Got rid of the dirty section? Yeah. And then when she bought her partner out and closed it, she didn't. Got rid of the dirty section? Yeah.

But as a kid, when you, the best is my dad, you'd go to put movies away. Well, my dad didn't work in the store very often. He'd be coming to pick us up for dinner or something if he was getting off work. And so there'd be a stack. I'll just help put these away so we can get to eat faster. So he would start to put them away and you'd hear him yell across the store the title that he can't find. And as it comes out, he's like, can't get it back in his mouth fast enough when you realize, oh, I know where that one goes.

It's back here. He said the dirty title. Yes. And you're just little kids. Yep. And some of them have very similar titles as the kids movies, which is really bad. I never noticed that. Do you have any examples of that I don't but I do remember parents

bringing them and I was like I don't know if that's the right one this doesn't look like the cover of the Disney movie it's a very close title though oh that's right so they do those they do the fake yeah the yeah yeah yeah on like sweeping beauty or those kind of movies. Some dirty.

And the most embarrassing is when you call the late list. Yeah. And you're like 14 years old and you're like, hey, your movie's two weeks late. Yeah. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Could you return a Buttman 3, please? Bingo. And the wife answers.

And you're like, if your husband could just call us. He has a movie that's overdue. We don't have it. We haven't written any movies. Oh, okay. Well, there's one on your account. What's it called? No, you didn't.

If you could just have him call the store, that would be great. Yeah. I think this is between us and maybe we don't want to get you in trouble. I always try to not sell them out. So, all right. So you're doing, how many brothers and sisters you got? I have an older brother. So you're in the desert, Imperial Valley, dad's contractor, working at the video store and watching movies.

So when does gymnastics come in? I started gymnastics when I was seven. So you're like a gymnastics girl. Yeah, I competed my whole life. And so my mom would drive me up probably twice a week to compete in meets in San Diego, which was two hours. What was your specialty? Growing up, you do everything. Really?

So you did the horse thing. Vault. The vault. You did the hoops. Nope. Those are men's. Oh, those are men's. You did the-

Uneven bars. Oh, those look hard. They look painful. I'm surprised you didn't say the balance beam. That's the one usually men don't like. The balance beam was pretty exciting. So the vaulting, the uneven bars, balance beam, then floor work. Yep.

Those are the ones. Yep. What were you best at? In high school, I would probably say beam, which is funny because in college, it became my least event. I was strongest at bars, but I think a lot of it became coaching because when I went into college, I had a really great coach that loved bars. And so I had a growth spurt. I was only 5'3 when I went on my recruiting trips. But that's pretty good for a gymnast, right?

Aren't you supposed to be kind of squat? Yeah, but when you show up and you're 5'8 and then then you grow to be almost 5'9", your freshman year, he's like, I don't remember recruiting a tall girl. Oh, really? So, you know, I had that to work with, with just longer arms and legs. So I could do everything, but it was just like a neon light would flash when my knee would bend of like, huh, bad form, bad form, knee bend. Oh, really? My freshman year. And then I kind of figured it back out a little.

Yeah. That is tall for a gymnast then. Yeah, very. Were you gunning for Olympic status? Were you doing that whole thing? Were you hoping to get into the Olympics? I never really thought about the Olympics much because usually by, I didn't have a club program that could get you ready for the Olympics.

There's only a handful in the country that really truly can unless you're just miraculously in one of them. And then most of the time they've moved away to that gym at like 9, 10, 11. And I didn't know that I wanted to do it that much at that age. So for me, it was always about college. So you weren't like a lunatic and your mother wasn't a lunatic trying to build a little gymnastics monster for the Olympic team. No, I played other sports in high school and I did basketball and volleyball. And then-

Big jock. My parents actually coached the tennis team, which my brother was very good. And I, to this day, I'll watch tennis. And I'll be like, Dad, why didn't you let me play tennis? And he's like, I tried. You did not want to do gymnastics. You didn't want to play tennis. Yeah, tennis is more practical.

Because if you play tennis, you could be like on the weekend. Hey, you want to go play some tennis? You can't do that with gymnastics. No, but I don't know that it would have given me the same career path. Of course. Yeah, yeah. But can you play tennis? I can. I can't say that I'm very good because I don't know that it would have given me the same career path. Of course. Yeah, yeah. But can you play tennis? I can.

I can't say that I'm very good because I don't go play very often. Is your brother still good? My brother was very good. The problem is that, you know, having a fun party lifestyle became more important than tennis. So he got out of the tennis. Yeah, he had scholarships and then decided school was much more fun than playing tennis. Did he end up on his feet, that guy? Yeah, he did. Just took a roundabout way to get there. Yeah, well good. That happens. Different paths.

Sometimes you've got to take the other path for a while. Alright, so it got you into college. Yes. And you competed all through college? I did. And then what all through college? I did. And then what did you graduate? What was your degree in? Business. And then minored in econ and theater. Did that do?

Oh, well, theater is interesting. Did the business help you in any way? Did you go into business after you graduated? No, I had, you know, 21, I show up in my little suit because I should probably go and do some interviews. So I show up and get offered some jobs. And you're thinking, well, I should take these. This is a lot of money at 21 years old. Like what? Ad agencies and then consulting firms.

And did you take them? No, my mom gave me really great advice. She's like, is this what you want to do? And I said, I don't think so. I really want to be in the entertainment industry i love performing i love i didn't first i didn't exactly know about stunts right but it was something to do with telling the story of film but you did theater i did i didn't i i took classes but i never did theater because i was always um on the road for gymnastics oh acting classes and stuff yeah Yeah. Yeah? Did you like them?

I did. They were fun. Yeah. So you knew somehow through watching movies, but you weren't fascinated with stunts necessarily when you were a kid? I didn't even really know it existed. Yeah. You know what I mean?

I guess you know they're stunt people, but if you don't grow up around it, I didn't really think about that process that somebody did that. So after your mother says your heart is not in being a consultant or being in advertising, you just knew you wanted to be in the entertainment. Yeah.

She said, you know, you're 21. You have your whole life that you got your degree. And that's what we asked of you. And go. And you don't have bills. You don't have debt. Like, go figure out what you want to do. You can always go back and get that job. right so i moved to la um i only knew one person and i thought is it

acting is it directing is it like i don't know what aspect exactly of the film industry but i knew i loved film and telling a story and you know that side of it so I went to some acting classes and um which ones Ernie Lively oh yeah and it's Blake Lively's dad and I ended up working for him and so I was his assistant oh and you're at the at the at the studio it is yeah and he just he wasn't he's an actor and acting coach for kids and yeah so then I I randomly went in the gym. Where'd you end up living first when you first got here? I had one friend from college who was moving here, and we ended up just in an apartment in Studio City.

Ah. And what'd that friend end up doing? She is a dancer and an actress. Oh, yeah? Mm-hmm. Doing all right? Yeah. That's good.

She's doing great. All right, so you're working for the Lively Guy in the acting school. Yep. You're living in Studio City. That's good. She's doing great. All right. So you're working for the lively guy in the acting school. Yep. You're living in Studio City. That was your job. That was my job. And quickly within the first few months, I went to a gym. A gym.

Just a regular gym. Like a gymnastics club that had an open gym. And so I went in just because it was home. I had been competing since I was seven. So you just wanted to jump around a little bit? I just wanted to jump around. I wanted to do some flips. Yeah. So I went in to jump around a little bit? I just wanted to jump around. I wanted to do some flips. So I went in and it was a gym where all these stunt people were training.

And they quickly became friends. They were exceptionally talented at stunts, whether it was martial arts, fights, tricking, gymnastics. And we all would train. They'd go train five nights a week. And I just kind of was, it was these guys. And it was a group of guys that were filmmakers. They saw beyond just falling to the ground. Were they old timers or young guys?

No, they were all fairly young. They're probably five years ahead of me in the business. And I would tag along. So they were just training to keep in shape? No, they were training like we would tumble and do gymnastics and I would help them. And then they were martial artists, so they would all help me. They'd be doing all these things and I'd be over on the beam holding it doing basic kicks. Right, right.

And then pretty soon I was jumping in and you're doing choreography. You mean like how do you execute this stunt? No, just playing, like actually putting fights together for film and filming them and doing wire gags and training. At the gym? At the gym. Well, there was different. One person had a dojo. One had a gymnastics club.

And so we would go to different gyms every night of the week. And that was just something you were doing for fun in a way to begin with? It became where I felt the most at home here. And you were interested in the whole process. I was absolutely to begin with it became where i felt the most at home here and you were interested in the whole process i was absolutely in love with it and so within a year of training them every day i said i finally were all eating and i said you guys i want to do stunts and they kind of said we figured that a year ago i mean you're just now figuring this out but i was for the most part the only girl that would tag along and when i I say these guys are talented, I'm talking about, as you would know them more now,

but like Chad Stahelski, who just directed John Wick 1, 2, and 3. And then Dave Leitch is a part of that group that I trained with. And Dave Leitch directed John Wick 1 as well. And then he went off and just crushed it with Atomic Blonde and Deadpool 2. And then he was Hobbs and Shaw.

So these guys were sort of like, you know, stunt gym guys that went on to direct these movies? Yeah. When I met Chad, he had just finished the first Matrix. He doubled Keanu and he was getting ready to do the sequels two and three. And Dave was doubling Brad Pitt. In what? I think several, three or four movies right before that. And then Mike Gunther, Marcus Young, Tim Connolly, J.J. Perry.

It was this amazing, talented group of people. And they all went on to be directors? Two of them, three of them are. And then one is about to direct his first film. Yeah. And then the other one's been doing a lot of second unit. Huh. So that's what I mean.

They're not just like, let me fall down and get hit by a car. They actually want to tell a story and get into film, and they're talented. I get it. I get it. I just never knew that that was an avenue. Because obviously they wanted to direct from the beginning. So this was their way in. Well, I don't know if they wanted to direct from the beginning.

I think it's a passion. But I think the evolution with stunts is you are a stunt performer. And then if you're very good at that, a lot of them end up coordinating. And then from that, a lot end up shooting second unit, directing second unit. And then there's a handful that these doors have kicked the door open, door open. Yeah. Especially Chad and Dave where they have crushed it doing First Unit and it's their movie

and they're incredible with the action and with storytelling and, I mean, Spiro Rosado does, he directs Second Unit and he was a stunt performer but, I mean,

he does all the Fast and Furious for Second Unit, directs them. He does, like, almost every car movie out there. But the other two guys are the actual directors of the movie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. other two guys are the actual directors of the movie.

Mm-hmm. Wow. It's weird because that whole part of the business where even in sound and lighting and everything else where there's entire communities and there's this sort of hierarchy of learning and getting better jobs or getting in angling, but anytime you're on a set for as long as you're on the set

doing these things, it's going to be hard not to become enchanted with other parts of it absolutely and i think for me with stunts it's always been a it's a piece of if the action isn't moving the story along yeah it's just a an explosion for an explosion like i want it to tell the story and make you feel the emotion through it. But you've done some explosions for explosions, haven't you? Absolutely. What about superhero movies? That's what we do.

Yeah. But then that just directing kind of becomes a part of, extension of getting the whole story then. Sure. And I think that, like, also because you and, what, Helena, is that her name? Mm-hmm. Are on set on GLOW with Chavo.

You know, you're coordinating the, like I've seen you on set every day, every time I'm there and it becomes sort of a family. And when it's TV and it requires every, you got to be there the whole time. I mean, you're sort of invested in the whole arc of the thing. Right. It's not like one day or it's not like just one movie. It's like, it's a whole 10 episodes. Right.

And you're there the whole time so you can visualize the story and understand how all this stuff fits in. Absolutely. And for that show especially, it's not just, okay, let's just wrestle. It's really,

let's think about, okay, Betty as Liberty Bell. Okay, now Liberty Bell is crossing over to be Zoya. Okay, Ally as Zoya. Like, what are their signature moves and what are their characters between the two of them personally absolutely I mean the characters and then I as characters

right yeah all right so now how do you get your first break and also before we get into that though because like I've read some books lately about you know the 70s and stuff and there there definitely was that the stunt people mostly men then, were a kind of like, you know, crazy bunch of hot dogging lunatics, you know, drunks and daredevils. Is that still the case with that community? I mean, like they seemed like real hard dudes that were if they weren't like. But I guess it was post-war and there was a different type of person, real cowboys and fucking drug addicts and lunatics. I think the time has definitely changed in the industry as a whole from the 70s or 80s. But yeah.

Are those guys still around though? Absolutely. I work with a lot of them, but they've changed and grown. Of course. The ones that lived, you would think they'd change a bit. Yeah. But I think it's always a risk when you do big stunts but it's also you know they they keep asking for more and more and more and so it's you know the the equipment

is often better now for descenders and decelerators for very high gags i think what does all that mean like if you jump off a different language if you jump off a building, say, 200 feet. A descender? And you're hooked to a cable. Yeah, that's called a descender? It's a descender or a decelerator, yeah. Oh, the same thing? Well, one is a free fall, and then it decels you at the bottom,

and then one can set your speed the whole way down. Oh, okay. But that equipment gets better and better. Good. I think it used to be just you'd jump off and there'd be a balloon at the bottom. Oh, there is still sometimes an airbag. Yeah, just an airbag. Good luck.

We're going to have to keep doing it until we get the speed right, I guess. Well, it depends. I mean, if you're jumping into an airbag, the speed is going to be gravity. That's right. That's it. No changing. You're not changing it. Do you know that guy, that guy, Brett, the guy with one leg?

Brett Smurs. Smurs, yeah. Yes, he's a fantastic driver. I know his dad very well. Like, that's a whole family of stunt dudes? Well, the dad is Greg, and then his brother is Brian, and they are fantastic. They both second unit direct a lot. Brian has probably second unit directed

just about every marvel movie or most of them a lot of them and then greg has second directed a ton and then brett is greg's son and he's a fantastic driver he is an amputee below the knee yeah and you would never know i just he worked for me on kidding came in crashed in a car and nobody knows and he just goes along his day i mean he it happened i don't know he was maybe 14 or 15 oh so not a stunt accident no at home i believe if i remember the story right he jumped off the roof onto a trampoline and then off and had an accident and he was already a incredible go-kart racer. And he just transitioned from that family.

All right. So how do you get... No one in your family is in show business. Nope. Nobody. You're the first one. So you're hanging around this gym.

You're getting all these chops. You're learning all this stuff just hanging around because you like to do it. Uh-huh. How do you get the first job? Well, the first one I was... I was X-F was x files was one day

and they had uh sent everybody into audition and so a friend said oh there's a girl that trains with us all the time she's very new and green but she's really talented so i went in an audition and um the stunt coordinator introduces me to chris carter who is the nicest man i'd never seen the show and did not know he was a creator and i was like well he's really nice who's that guy he's great and they kept asking me to do certain things and so i would tumble for them she's a in a game so she's fighting david dacovni in the game flips down the alley flips over him and then fights him i get gymnastic flips like boom yeah yeah in an alley on concrete in heels and that was my opening to stunts so i auditioned and um the wording that

they were using i don't think was what they wanted to see but when you don't know the lingo yeah so i said do you mind if i show you something i think this is what you really want to see here's you know 21 year old version of a naive girl on that's going to tell them yeah i think this is what you really want to see here's you know 21 year old version of a naive girl on that's going to tell them yeah i think this is what you're asking for and so i showed them and then they were like that's what we've been wanting to see and it was just it was just they wanted you to tumble forward yeah but you can't tumble forward with the speed backwards but you just have to start the direction this way yeah so it was just the wording of what they were asking for gymnastics wise. Oh.

And so I showed him that. And then I booked that. And later you realize how much of a risk he took on me. Because I also had to hit a mini tramp in heels and flip over David Duchovny and not land on his head and break his neck. And you know, you're brand new. And he's like, okay. He was great. So then my second job, they said they said hey do you want to audition

for a movie i didn't know what it was it's for the hong kong team so i went in and the hong kong team hong kong team they had just finished matrix and it was uh the brother and he was now doing this movie okay which is all fights and martial arts so what are those guys what were those brothers names uh wu ping and chen yen they they were wu ping did all the fights on Matrix, and then Chen Yan was his brother who did... They're called the Hong Kong team? That's what... Yeah, that's what they call them, because it's the whole team. So they...

I went in and auditioned, and then a couple weeks later, I auditioned again, and then they offered me the job, and it was Charlie's Angels. And that's a big movie. A lot of stars. At the time, it was huge, and it was three lead women. And then the bad girl was lead. So it was a woman. So it was everything you could think of between Cars, High Falls, the second unit director, Vic Armstrong, and Andy Armstrong, who are some of the biggest in the business.

And they are amazing. He goes- No, like, let's just break it down for me. A second unit director is usually, it's not all stunts. It's just- Usually second unit is. Oh, it is. Because they're picking up all the big not all stunts it's just uh usually second unit is because they're picking up all the big pieces of stunts so they're either doing entire sequences or they're picking up like say if you did a fight on first unit now they're picking up everything that they didn't shoot on

the actors with the doubles or right like in this case it's a hey have you done an 80 foot high fall he calls me and i said i haven't done've done 50, but can I have the weekend? And I'll let you know if I can do 80 mentally. Right. So I went out and practiced and called him back on Monday and said, yes. And that was for Charlie's Angels. That was for Charlie's Angels. Mentally.

Well, that's an interesting thing. So like, what is the mental tools, you know, even for the first thing, like, so, okay, so you got to wear high heels. You've never done it before and you've got to launch yourself over the company. So, you know, you have the physical tools in place, but what do you, what do you do to clear your mind? You can't really, is it just like a type of fearlessness? Like there, you just, there, you can't doubt yourself at all, right? It's funny as I had, I've had less fear and stunts than I did in gymnastics. It's funny as I've had less fear and stunts than I did in gymnastics.

Gymnasts are very known to have mental blocks. What do you mean? I think because you're always- Mental blocks to what? Like you'll do a trick, maybe you do a double back. Right. And then one day you go in and you're just like, I don't know if I can do it. You have to spot me. Or you have to stand right there and then I can do it.

And your coach is standing there going, I can't even reach you if I needed to. But you're going to do it if I stand on this blue spot. Oh, so there's a fear kick that comes in? A fear kind of kicks in and like weird mental, just stand there even though you can't touch me. Like all of a sudden you don't know how to do it. Yeah, it's just, I think it feeds off of the energy of other teammates. Versus in club, I was always the one that would just be like, send Shauna, she'll do it, and they would figure it out on me. Yeah.

And then in college you see other girls that have mental blocks and it starts to have them with you, and then you push through them and then something else comes. Versus with stunts, things that I may have my coach stand there and do a dismount off a bar, say. Yeah. Can you stand there? Now, I've done it in stunts off a pipe to an eight-inch mat

with nothing else around and no grips. And you're like, in the perfect environment, you can set up a mental block. But I think with stunts, you realize quickly that you either can or you can't. And if you can't, you don't take the job. And if you can, time is money. So for you to sit up there and talk yourself into it for 20 minutes, you don't have that luxury.

And production doesn't have that luxury. So you just do it. I get it. But how do you know you can't? Just fear? Or is that what it is? Like, what was the process between, okay, I've only done a 50-foot jump. And now you want me to do an 80.

Let me wrap my brain around that. Well, I knew physically I could. Yeah. So now let me just make sure mentally I'm not going to get up there and choke on you. Freak out. So I got up there and there was this stuntman, Bob Yerkes, who was a circus performer. He had a big high fall tower in his backyard. So one of the guys I trained with.

Is this a buddy? It's kind of a, he's an an older he's probably in his 80s and his time maybe in his 60s so he's a friend of a friend and hey we can go train at his some guy goes like i know this old stunt guy's got a tower and we'll go over there yeah and he's just like he just hangs out at home and so he's not even there most of the time or if he was i never saw younger stunt people like hey man can we use the thing pretty much can we use it yeah he had a russian swing what is that it's cool things it's like uh one person's on it another and you ride Stunt people are like, hey, man, can we use the thing? Pretty much. Can we use it? Yeah. He had a Russian swing. What is that?

He had all these cool things. It's like one person's on it and another, and you ride it, and then it pitches. I can visually show you with my hands better. He's an old-timey stunt guy? He was a circus. Yeah, like an old-time circus guy. And you never met him? Oh, yeah, I've met him, but at the time, he wasn't ever there when we would go train.

I mean, rarely. And he did stunts in like the 60s or 70s or whatever? I would say. Yeah? Yeah. And he did stunts in like the 60s or 70s or whatever? I would say. Yeah? Yeah. And he's still around? He's still around. I see him occasionally at like the Stun Awards

and that kind of stuff. Oh, really? Yeah. Like he's like one of the old timers? Yeah. And he's got all his pieces and parts. Yeah. And everything's working.

All right, so you go to his house. So I go there, and at this time, he just has a tower. So it's a ladder. Okay. And they have an airbag down, and airbags are rated to certain heights because the pressure and how they're set up. Oh, they can't be too inflated. They'll bounce you off.

Yeah. And you can't do an 80-foot high fall for a bag that's rated a 50. Because you'll go through it. You'll risk bottom out. Yeah. So they set the airbag up. And so now I do some at, say, 40 and then 50. And now-

It's just a free fall. Yes. Just a free fall. Yes, just a free fall. Just jump. So the friend that is helping me there makes me carry the step up the ladder. So meaning I have to hook my legs around the ladder, take the step off.

It's a metal step that's like a foot wide by two feet long. Oh, from... Oh, okay. You've got to carry it out. Climb up the ladder like 10 feet. And it hooks on? Rehook it. Yeah.

And climb up and step up there because he was trying to make me comfortable each bit I went up. And there's no, you got no string or nothing attached?

Nothing. And you just step there 80 feet? So now I get to 80 feet and I'm looking down and it was like, whew, that looks like a postage stamp

and I'm going to land on it. And he's like, Jess, jump already. So I did. I did it eight times so that I knew I felt comfortable if I needed to do it repeatedly. It's like installing a little muscle memory. Yeah. And you do.

I think my biggest lesson that day is maybe on the third or the fourth, you start to feel really comfortable and you get a little complacent. And so when I landed, I kind of whipped my head in, which was fine, but your neck is going to be sore. But it also reminded me from that day on that it was like, okay, I really have to think about what I'm doing in the air. So I land a specific way to keep myself safe. Do you love it?

It was awesome. But it is that fear. You have to kind of, people always say, oh, you don't have any fear. Oh, I have a fear. I think it's more of I have a respect. Right. Well, I mean, I think, like I said earlier, that once you have certain tools in place and you take the risk or you practice, you know, just to get over that, like, you know, I don't know if I can do this. And then you do it.

You know, you can do it. Then you do it 10 times and you're like, all right. Yeah. Then that kind of takes the fear out of it. And you just have to engage the skill set. Well, it's even say like a 250 foot descender. You've tested it with. I can't even picture that.

It's like jumping off a bridge. 20 to 25 stories up. Come on, man. And you're high rise building. So you have to jump off. Now, we've tested it with weights. We know it's all good, but still,

somebody has to ride it for the first time. And that's where it comes, for me, who is rigging it, my life is in their hands and I trust them with my life. So there are certain people

that I would trust with anything because they have had my life in their hands repeatedly. Wasn't it like a handful of people? Have you been on a set and been like, I don't want that guy. I need another person to. No, but I have asked before. Well, you know, hey, do you want to do this?

This gag? Who's rigging it? And I think it's a fair question. In the beginning. A gag. Didn't you call them gags? Yeah. A gag.

A stunt. Like, especially a high gag where my life is in their life. Why do they call them gags? I don't know. Where'd that come from? It's a gag. It, a stunt, like especially a high gag where my life is in their life. Why do they call them gags? I don't know. Where'd that come from? It's a gag. It's a stunt. I know.

A stunt's a stunt. A gag's a joke. But okay. I like it. Maybe it's a way to disarm the whole language of it. Like, yeah, we're just going to do a gag, do a thing, jump off a bridge. So you have asked. Yeah.

Well, I think the beginning I didn't. And so you have asked like yeah well i think the beginning i didn't and so you learn quickly you look back and go i kind of was lucky because i didn't even know who was rigging it because you're just taking the jobs people hiring for skill what we do where we just take it for granted that things are okay i mean i think about that just with bullshit just with things we eat i'm like how do i know where this came from? Yeah. Anything. Did he wash his hands before he made the house for my lunch? Yeah, whatever, yeah. Just weird stuff. We just sort of like, I guess it's okay.

Yeah. We do that with everything. Yeah. Oh, this car is fine. So, but I could see how that really makes a difference. Like you are, they do have, if they're hung over, they're having a shitty morning and they forget to do something. Well, and I tried that as a coordinator.

I try to always respect if somebody's doing, you know, they're going to do a full burn lit on fire fully. Or if somebody. You've done that? Uh-huh. You've been lit on fire? Yeah. I was lit on fire and then I raised my arms and the whole building completely around me

went on fire. That was for a pilot for. Didn't even make it? Wasn't even on? Twilight? Uh-huh. Became Moonlight, I think. Did that work?

Alex O'Loughlin. Oh. No, it was fun, though. It was a big, huge burn. Was it the only time you burned? No, I've done partials, but that's the biggest one I've done. Partial burns where it's just sort of like,

my arm! And you're running around. Like, just your arm or one part or maybe to here or it just depends where they feel you. But the whole body burn and the arm raise? Yeah. So you had to be on fire for a minute.

I had to be on fire, come through doors. So I stand there and then I, the hardest burn is to actually stand and do nothing. And just burn? Because the fire just comes up under you, under your face. When they're moving, it's actually easier because you can move the fire away

from your face a little bit. So when you're standing there or laying there doing nothing, they're actually the hottest burns. So I just had to stand there for- In a fire suit? Well, you have, like they take Carbon-X or Nome-X and they, it's a fire retardant, like thermals almost. And they stick them in a bunch of fire gel.

And you usually have a couple layers on and then they put a rain suit over it yeah which is random but that's when you put your clothes on then your clothes don't get just wringing wet yeah um and then and then they put the fuel on and then burn you from and it burns it starts underneath the clothes is that how no it start on the top the underneath is just the fuels on the top. The underneath is just to protect you. It's that layer in between. Oh, I see.

So there's no fire suit anymore. That's the old days. Yeah. You've just got some fire retardant underwear on. Pretty much. It's like my Wonder Woman underwear is when I was a kid.

Yeah. And what about your face though? How does that? It depends. Sometimes they can put a mask on and that protects the face. And then sometimes there's also- A mask of your face or of the character's face?

Usually it's just a generic one because they're so expensive to build. Oh, yeah. Or sometimes there is also a gel that can go straight to the skin and you can burn and then it'll protect you. But do you come out of it with a little burn here or there? Normally, no. Usually the biggest problem is the breathing. Because you need to hold your breath or you need to have a regulator. Because that's where the hot comes in and it can burn.

Like you can have some lungs and that stuff. So that moment where you got to jump off a building or when you're about to be set on fire, that's exciting, right? It's very exciting. And I think it's the rush and the adrenaline after that's awesome. Really? That's what you live for? That's it, right? Yeah. So, all right. So Charlie's Angels, what were the stunts? Was that the 80 foot? That was high falls, cars, fights. I mean, the biggest- You do the driving? I did some of it.

There was several different things. Did you have to train for that? That doesn't sound like the gymnastic angle. So you do driving stunts? I do. I do. But you had to learn that later, right? I did. Well, I grew up, because I grew up in the desert, we grew up on like quads and dirt bikes.

And so I had a lot of car handling experience. But I did. I have taken that and trained a lot in the meanwhile to get better um so i roll a car yeah you can roll the car too unfortunately no no not on purpose there you go so like when you got to get into a car and you got to roll it it's it's all in how it's prepped oh yeah same with fire it's all in who preps you really and that's where the that's where the trust comes in and you know effects is prepping the car and the coordinators they're prepping the car what do you got how do you got to prep a car to roll it well usually there's a

roll cage inside to protect you oh right but i mean but the actual the the moment of rolling is up to you to the moment to wheel right well depends. Usually there's probably a cannon in it. A cannon? So imagine this is like a telephone pole. Yeah. So like on Fast Five, the opening sequence, Corey Eubanks is driving that big bus. And so I'm in the little NSX, and then Oakley, Lehman, and Sly are behind,

and we kind of swap around and cross, and then I do a head-on, and Corey swerves the bus, and then as he pitches the bus sideways, there's three cannons inside. So the pressure effects is built so strong that when he pushes the button, the pressure sends the cannons to the ground. And it tilts the bus? And it tips. So it depends where they place it in the car.

So if you want the car to go this way, you'll put it in this so it's an air thing it's like a compression of air that is yeah it's hooked and when he hits the button it sends it up yeah it sends the cannon with a lot of force to the ground and that flips the car wow so it comes back to how the car is prepped from the coordinator and effects and you you have a great effects stunt, you know, a special effects team that builds it. How much driving have you done? How many cars have you rolled? I haven't thankfully rolled very many. I've rolled a couple.

But mostly driving chases. Like we recreated on Alcatraz the bullet car chase in San Francisco with Andy and Jack Gill. Yeah. Which was so much fun. Wow. All right. So I find it kind of crazy. It's a crazy life.

But I guess it does feel like there is the risk of injury almost always. There is a lot. I mean, I've been really lucky. I've had a few. Yeah? Like what? I broke all the bones in my foot on a descender. Oh, because you hit?

I hit a ledge that- Oh, man. Yeah. And so for me, it was very early in my career, and it was the best learning experience. Yeah, when you can't walk for six months? Yeah, it's really snappy. Fortunately, it's only six weeks because they're little bones. Okay.

But I said said i don't think i'll clear that ledge and yeah yeah yeah you will yeah you will yeah you will i don't think i'll clear it yeah has anybody you know and you're up on top and they're down below and so i was stupid and said okay if they want me to you know who the fuck were those people well you're getting that aren't jumping off the building the ad AD and then everybody up there is telling- Because I asked, does the coordinator think I'm going to clear it? Yeah. Yeah, he says you're fine, but he's down there.

Who knows that it even got to him? But your gut was like, I don't know. I won't clear that. Because the way the molding was, and I didn't. Yeah. So as stunt people do, I said, don't take my boot off because you won't get it back on. So let's get all the shots you want and just stop me above that ledge, which is only 20 feet from the ground. After you hurt yourself?

Uh-huh. And we did it another probably 10 times. Weren't you in pain? Yeah. Then they took me to, I said, now they take me to the ER to get x-rays. Man. But we shot. Good for you.

You're a trooper. You have to get the shot. That's it? That's the most important? Get the shot. No. It's not. But what I mean, there's not much they're a trooper. You have to get the shot. That's it? That's the most important? Get the shot. It's not, but what I mean, there's not much they're going to change. If it's broken, it's broken. It's not, you know.

And if you're not in so much pain, you can't function. It's fine. Right. All right. So what, okay. So what are the categories of stunts that you do? You do all of them. So you do driving, you'll roll a car, you'll drive fast.

You can, they can set you on fire. You'll jump off of things um what do you do uh sword work i do really how did you have to learn that yes oh where'd you train for the sword work same group of people some of them that's their specials like on electra and daredevil we use size this group though this is just a group this these aren't classes no these are people that hang out. These are stunt people. And you're like, can you show me how to do that? Do people ask you how to do flips?

Oh, all the time. Okay. So one of my friends is- So that's the community. Yeah. And one of my friends was the best with size. So when I got on Daredevil, we started to train, and I was doubling Jennifer Garner on Alias. And then we were starting to rehearse for Daredevil.

So when we rapped, we would go there. She's in that too? Yeah. Yeah. And so I realized quickly that I needed more work with size. And the person that was there was- Size? It's like a weapon that looks like a pitchfork, sort of.

Okay. Yeah. And so I happened to look around and one of my friends who's a martial artist, that's his weapon that he's a world champion with. So I went and trained with him like three days a week. And that's Daredevil's weapon? Uh-huh. No, that's Elektra's on Daredevil.

Oh, right. So then I set it up so he would train Jen because I wanted her to look great. I didn't want to have to process through me. If you teach me, I'll teach her. Like just teach her and make her great. Yeah. With that thing. Yeah, with size.

And then on Sucker Punch punch it was more um swords so i had a broad sword um baby had a i think a katana and then they all had different swords and different weapons and they are sucker punch okay so yeah and then you have to pick up some like you have to pick up bits and pieces of martial arts and stuff? Yeah. I mean, martial arts is what I've been doing since before. Other than gymnastics, that was kind of my passion since just before the business, but really once I got in it. Which ones?

Mostly taekwondo, but I feel like each movie, you're growing in your style because each movie changes, you know, um, a lot of like Muay Thai, a lot of, um, peppermint we did was more like in tight, close quarter knees and elbows and guns and, you know, Electra. And it used to be a little more wire work and a little more flashy jump, spin hook kicks. And, you know, I mean, it's just kind of the evolution and then I did Ray Donovan for five years which was much more hands and boxing so I think for a girl a lot of times our weaknesses are our hands because you have danced and done gymnastics and martial arts but you haven't necessarily boxed and done hands like boys kind of play fight you guys you guys are just rough as kids so boxing is is kind of more. So I trained. Yeah.

So I trained a lot with boxing to have my hands stronger. At the place. At the place. No, different places. But some boxing gyms. But like, I'm just fascinated with this gym where it's just like, it sounds like. It's more a group of people than a gym. Because we would go to like LA Valley one day and then Gymnastics Olympica one day.

And then. But each gym, each place specializes in a thing no each gym is just an open gym okay so you could do anything you want there okay it was just we would go with that group of people whoever was not working that day and we would train but there's no there's no like teachers just everybody kind of it's just sort of like i'll show you how to do that well and you have to imagine most of the teachers there are not going to teach. If they're teaching an adult class, they're teaching like a back handspring. And then I'm going to jump on the beam and do layout step outs. It's not that they're going to teach me.

You know what I mean? And then the same way you have the Olympic coach for Taekwondo. If you stepped into a Taekwondo dojo, you're not going to teach him. He could teach it anywhere he wanted to go. Right. You know, so it's just we're all learning together and collaborating our skills. It's just an understanding

you all have. Yeah. And now you can't get any of them to hardly train because they train all the time, but they're all over the world working. So then they just train

in whatever gym they can find. I see. So the education of the stunt person once you start doing it is just sort of going to the place and seeing who's around and working shit out. Yeah. Huh.

Yeah. And then if you want to drive. And occasionally you need a retired carnival act who's got a ladder in his backyard. And he'll let you jump off it. Yeah. The best is my dad, if I had a high fall, he'd always get nervous and say oh call me when you're done i just i don't know where you get it i don't i don't know where you get these high falls like where you want to do that and i was like because when i was eight we would jump off cliffs that were 80 feet tall into the water like where do you think i get it did you do that yeah we would

go to maui and go cliff jumping you and your old man yeah and my dad and my brother, and I always wanted to go with the boys. So I would do it. Was it 80 feet? The highest I did was 80 in Maui. Just to jump into the water? Uh-huh. Oh, man. I always wanted to do it, but every time I've gone to Hawaii, it wasn't... I've gone to Kauai, and there's not very high ones.

But it's got to be sort of an established thing. Yeah. And Maui was black rock and they've put fences around it. So you can only get to the lower, which is, I don't even know, 20 or 30. Now you can't even get to the higher. Because someone died. Probably. Someone ruined the fun with his life. Dang it. That guy. All right.

So I do notice that you've done a lot of work with Jennifer Gardner. So now is that something that she asks for you? Is that you are her established stunt double for life? I mean, I can't say for life. I hope so. How does that relationship start? Just you do a thing? Did it start with Daredevil or the aliens?

It started with aliens. Yeah. I came in. um how does that relationship start just you do a thing did it start with daredevil or it started with alias yeah i came in um her she had a double that did the pilot and maybe one or two episodes and she got hurt so i came in just for a couple days to fill in and i was again all i had done was literally had been less than a year and i had done charlie's angels and and great stuff but i just was bouncing around i didn't know the coordinator. I got referred to him. Went in for a couple days. Did a fight.

The double came back. And then she blew her knee out. God, it's not her day, huh? It's not her show. Not her year. And then I came back. I worked for most of the first season. And then got offered a movie.

And I thought she was coming back. So it was a John Woo movie. And I went to the the coordinator and I said, I think I should take that so she can have her job back. I called her because they said, we want you to stay. And I felt bad because I didn't want to step on hers. For the woman who blew her knee out? Yeah. So I called her and she said, actually, I'm fine with that. I, you know, stay on it.

So I went to Jen and just said, what do you want me to do i mean obviously i'd love to stay with you but i can do this if you want like you know you're at that point probably 22 and have opportunities that you're just still finagling your way through sure and um she's asked me to please stay with her and i think for me that's where the tall thing probably helped out the tall thing yeah She's just fun every day. And it's so fun to see her Instagram posts because everybody, you only see like for Alias for five years. My mom came on set maybe the third year for a day. And she's like, oh my God, she has the cutest dimples I've ever seen.

I've never seen her smile. Right. Because she's always so serious on the show. Right. And to see, I got to see that goofy, that goofy fun caring witty side every day yeah so that's what it was like you know you're gonna go to work and laugh and have a good time that's how every job was and then you go to other jobs and they're harder for different reasons or whatever so whenever she has something it's kind of it feels like going home it's like getting to go

back to work with your sister and And she's a great collaborator. She's appreciative. She's funny. And she has a great team that comes with her between her hair, makeup, me. It's like the same little team that have been with her since Alias. So, like, do you guys hang out? Yeah, we do. I mean, we both have – I have a five-year-old and she has kids.

So it gets a little bit hectic, but we definitely do when we can. And, you know, she's just – she's one of those people for me that you cannot see her for six months and then you can send a text and it's like it just you i'll get a text and be in tears laughing so hard and send one back and you never lose step with somebody you know she's just that person so what marvel things have you done daredevil and electro were both marvel and then i did um iron man three and i doubled gwyneth uh-huh what did that require that was a lot of wire work so she ends up in the iron man suit which was really fun to get to wear the hero iron man suit and i came on set and um i didn't have the helmet on yet but i have the suit and it's way

too big on me and i'm trudging up and then robert downey jr turns and he's like oh there's a girl in the suit we've never had a girl in the suit he was so kind and sweet and just he took me back over and he goes do you guys understand this suit is really heavy and it's mentally hard and it's incredible that she's in it. And he was so kind and giving because he's been in that suit a lot. Is it heavy? It's heavy. I think the top because the bottom are like mocap pants.

So they build the bottom. But from about the hips up and it's probably about 50 pounds. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then it has a few different helmets, one that closes, one that lifts, one that that opens i look like i have a tiny little pea head with a suit on when the helmet's off yeah um but there's one scene where he calls the suit on her so we did his double and i did glenn foster probably a 20 foot ratchet to the wall a ratchet meaning um you're in a harness and there's that same air cylinder that I was talking about

with the cars. Yeah. The cannon? Yeah, a cannon. So you're going to be a stuntman. I know. I'm going to be a coordinator. I'm going to go right to coordinator. Okay, good. So they hit the button and everything is going at the same time. So the helicopter is supposed

to be coming in and blowing up the house. Yeah. So all the windows blow, be coming in and blowing up the house yeah so all the windows blow everything blows in the house it's like gunfire just annihilated it right and he and i go flying back we're hooked to wires and it's like the propulsion pulls us back to the wall right and we hit and drop so then when she comes up she's got the suit on her and then she has to go and then lay over him to protect him from the falling debris because he doesn's got the suit on her and then she has to go and then lay over him to protect him from the falling debris because he doesn't have the suit on right but it was the one thing is the first time they did it they said okay drop into this position which is a like a plank position

sort of with 50 pounds extra on your top half and so i'm holding it and then they said get closer so the second take i drop in and i'm like this close to Robert's face. Except the only problem is, is the eye holes are about this big. They're like little slits. And because the helmet was too big, it dropped. So the eye holes were here. And I come back and I was like, you have to make the helmet smaller inside. I'm going to be the first person that knocks Robert Downey Jr. out or breaks his nose.

Cause I go like this and can't see where he is. So they fixed it. They fixed it, padded the top, put it back on, and we went again. Wow. It's just, how many times have you had to be in weird metal carcasses of different sorts? A lot? A lot. That's crazy.

And it always never fails its August, July, August, summer hot. And you're like, how am I in this in august in north carolina with this much humidity you know it just but then you go oh but i'm playing superhero like how cool my brother used to tell me please go put your clothes on i'd be like but i have my wonder woman underoos on i do have my clothes on i was annoying kid and he and his friends did wonder woman well i did the pilot for the tv show yeah and then I did some commercials. But I didn't go do Wonder Woman because I was doing Supergirl here at the time. Oh, so you did Supergirl.

Mm-hmm. That's all right. So you were up for the movie, Wonder Woman? And that must have been disappointing. You know, it was, especially after you see what it was, because they did an amazing job on it and such great people. But at the time my little boy was one and i was on supergirl and i was having a blast and melissa benoist it was here right melissa benoist is so fun and lovely and kind and that's nice so it was just like i'll

stay on this there's still you know there's still time you could you could be you could still be superwoman wonder woman i've worn the outfit. It's cool. Where'd you wear the outfit when you were a kid? Your underoos? Well, I started there, but yes. But I did do some commercials where they brought it over and they did a crossover for Justice League and Walmart. And so I got to wear the... It was so sweet. I jump in a van in the morning, blonde, in sweats.

And I'm talking to this little girl in the van and she says, oh, it's my, I'm asking her, she's like, oh, it's my first day on a movie. I've never been on a show. She was so sweet and shy. So now I go through the works and they have wigged me. I'm in the full outfit.

DC cloaks you like Marvel, so no one can take photos. It's at elementary school. We get into the cafeteria and the DP's like, can you take the cloak off? We need a light. They basically put a blanket over you?

Like a big hooded blanket. Because they don't want, as you're walking, photos taken. Especially if it's a reveal of something new. So I get in there and we do a few shots and then we stop. And the little girl is sitting off at one of the tables and I go sit down next to her. And I sit down and I'm like, Becky and start talking to her and um we then go to lunch and the mom the little girl has no idea that I'm the same person from the van and the little the mom comes up and all you can see now I'm recloped is the the headband yeah and she comes up and she said I

don't know how you knew my daughter's name but but you just made her world. And I said, well, why? And she said, well, she just switched school. She's been bullied at her old school and she just switched school and doesn't have any friends yet. And you made her the coolest kid in there today. And you realize like I sat with her for 30 seconds. Right. And you just, I think in this industry, we have such an impact on people. And it's nice when you get to just do that much back for somebody. Yeah. And you don't even, you don't really realize it because you're just at work and you're being nice. But it's in that moment because you're focused on what you're doing. Your empathy isn't really engaged.

You don't know the backstory of anyone's situation. Right. And then, you know, you hear something like that. You're like, wow, well, that was easy. Yeah. Maybe I should have done that more. You know, it know, you hear something like that. You're like, wow, well, that was easy. Yeah, maybe I should have done that more. You know, it does make you think about it. So have you been scared for your life?

There's been two times that I would say I absolutely look back and am lucky. One was I jumped a car into a lake. And it has big holes in the bottom to make it fill up faster. The pressure is supposed to equalize the doors. You're going to open them up and get out. Yeah. Um, it didn't quite go as planned.

And before I did the car jump, they moved my safety divers farther away. So, um, you see the ticking clock on the screen when, when I've watched it. And I would say it was about a minute, 10 seconds before I found my air. So wait, so, okay, so you drive? So I drive the, it's like a Jeep. Yeah. I drove it off of a ramp into the water. Yeah.

And the water was freezing and you couldn't see very far in front of you at all. It was really murky. So you have impact and you're submerged and it fills up immediately? It probably took 10 to 15 seconds to fill up only because they added those holes. So you see me going to the back as I'm supposed to, to follow the air to the back. And then when it comes under, the pressure's supposed to equalize and you can get the doors open and get out. Well, with the impact damage from the front, the doors wouldn't open. So you see me in a yellow, bright yellow shirt go from door to door to door to door,

window to window to window. I can't get any of them open. And so now the hookah line, which is the line for a scuba that has my air, was underneath me so I could find it. Well, now it's floated all over and I can't find it. And you're swimming blind trying to find it. So that second of panic, you go, holy i'm gonna die in this car what am i gonna do i'm gonna die in here it's one of the few times my mom has come to set which was probably not the smarter move she i get

out and she's like got her shoes off standing on the edge of the water um i don't know what she thought she was gonna do um but uh i finally so you were under there and everyone on land where it's still videoing. They have no clue. There's like four cameras in the car and no one knew that I could. And my safety divers, I just kept thinking they're going to come and they never came. Cause they didn't think there was a problem. No, they were trying to get to me because they put them so far out.

But there was a, there was a time limit, right? Where they're like, why isn't she up yet? Yes. I guess they kept from, I didn't see this. I guess they kept coming to the surface and then realizing i wasn't up yet and then they would dive back down and so then they're having trouble seeing because they can't see either so i ended up in that moment of panic going okay this isn't helping so what do i do and it's amazing that you can kind of take that calm for a second or two. And I realized I knew where my tank was bolted down

and my tank was bolted in the back. So I went, swam back to the back of the car, found the tank. Now I can find the line. I can run the line and it was under the seat and then up in the steering wheel. Oh my God. So I would have never found it looking, but doing that, I got air. Once I got air never found it looking, but doing that, I got air.

Once I got air, found the window breaker, broke the window and got out. Yeah. But it just shows you, it doesn't always go as planned. But, and then the other time would have been on Fast Five. I was in that little NSX

and Corey was turning the bus over. And Corey is literally one of the best drivers in the business. Corey, what's his name? Corey Eubanks. Uh-huh. So we're doing near misses. I hold my line. He swerves around.

We've done it all day, I don't know, 10 times. Yeah. Different time, different cameras, different everything. Now we're coming at each other and there is a helicopter above behind me and it's from their angle and so i don't know exactly what happened but we're both encroaching at 35 so that's ahead on at 70 and i don't even come to his bumper i'm so low so we're coming this way and then that half second when he's supposed to swear swerve he doesn't go and i only have a dirt berm what's that mean there's like um there's not road there it's just dirt that kind of goes up at an angle

on the side of a road like in the middle of the desert yeah imagine a two lane and then it's dirt right so i'm going and you have a half second anyway and then in that half second goes away and then so it's the last i just pulled my wheel as hard as i could to the left and ended up in the dirt um i didn't know that the helicopter had moved into my blind spot in his lane down low uh-huh so if he had swerved around me as planned he would have hit the helicopter and taken the helicopter out so he had to make the choice in a second and say like she'll be all right she'll get out she'll get out she'll get out you know like he's like her them her them she'll get out they can't so

whose mistake was that to this day i don't know i mean it's not him or he or i because we knew exactly what we were supposed to do right and no one told you that the copter was going to be there well we knew it was there but it wasn't supposed to come down. Oh, oh, oh. So I don't know. It might have been a call from the booth. There you go. Right. I mean, easily could have been come down around the side a little bit and he doesn't know

where this was supposed to happen. Who knows? Wow. It's a lot of inner workings. But yeah, those are the two that I would say I look back and go, I was very lucky. And you know, other ones,

you show up to work and like you said, you fall over a rug and it is what it is. But you know, the ones, you show up to work and like you said, you fall over a rug and it is what it is. But you know, the bigger ones I feel like for the most part are the ones that usually go the best because you've prepped them so much. Right.

And there's a lot, probably a lot more at stake. Yeah. So is your husband in the business? He is. Is the stunt guy too? Uh-huh. You're both stunt people. Yep.

Do you work out together not very often do you ever have like sort of can you show me this or we just work through this move with me this gag this gag not usually occasionally if i'm trying to think like especially on raid on event if i was going through a fight i'm like hey will you just play the other side with for me really quick because i want to think and i need i'm better when i have a dance partner yeah so i know some people just create both sides on their own i prefer to work off of somebody yeah so occasionally it's him but like he's in new orleans right now coordinating a jackman movie and um so it just we end up both busy and right you know so coordinating is something that you know that you graduate to that.

That's the next step. You're a stunt person and then you're a stunt coordinator. And a lot of times you still bounce between them. Sure. So I mean, I went in double gen on Peppermint while we were coordinating GLOW. So it just kind of depends on what's going on. And you won two Emmys for GLOW. I did.

For coordinating. And you're the first And you won an Emmy, two Emmys for GLOW. I did. For coordinating. Uh-huh. And you're the first woman to win an Emmy for stunts. It's pretty cool. And for such a fun show. I know. I mean, to represent, I think for me,

the thing about that show is if people could just see five minutes of how hard those ladies work. They're so focused. They're so focused. And I get them in the ring and I get them when they, you know, between Chavo and Helen and I, we get to play and teach.

And they come in and they knew nothing other than Kia, of course. I mean, it was just, okay. I mean, the first day in the ring, I gave them this whole speech about trust and they're going to be great, but I need them to listen to their bodies and blah, blah, blah. And then Chavo goes,

okay, so let's start with flipping to your back. Oh, hold on. Let's start with how to get in the ring. It's just because you're starting from ground zero. And now to watch them, they're incredible. And also it's sort of a rare sort of situation where the actual what you're doing as a stunt is actually a stunt. Yeah. The whole nature of professional wrestling is it's a real thing, but it's an illusion.

It's an illusion, but it's they when i've done a couple interviews and they've asked me about it being fake or they've asked me about and i'm like oh no when those girls hit that you know hit the ground you ask them they're gonna tell you they feel it it's real right and those guys they wrestle and their bodies are tired after a long i mean it's hard no definitely but but it's like it's not you're not trying to create someone jumping to their death. Correct. It is all in the fun of it. It's not this life or death situation where she's got to say this and get her kid and fight these guys and shoot them and jump off the building.

It's more what is the fun story we can tell. And let's add the glitter, add the leotards, add the hair, add the, you know, and let's just have fun. And within the characters, there's a story, you know, like, you know, you have the story of the show, whatever episode. But in the ring, there's always a story. Absolutely. And that's what wrestling is. Yeah. Yeah, that's exciting.

And Chavo has really taught us a lot about that. Helen and I are gymnasts and we're stuntwomen. So we're great at breaking things down and teaching. So we're great at breaking things down and teaching. And we pick up wrestling quickly because that's kind of a version of our background, even though it wasn't wrestling. It was gymnastics. Chavo is great at, he's been around it so long. Chavo Guerrero is like a family of wrestlers. Yeah, he's third generation.

Yeah. So he comes from the old school style of it's not just big flair, flair, big move, big move. But he wants to tell the story in the ring. So we have a really good time playing going, OK, what's the story? Who do you this? She's a bad girl. OK, now we need to switch it. No, she's the heel. No, she's that, you know, we get to have a really good time with that. Yeah, it's great. And we're doing one more. I know. One more. I have no idea what it's going to be about. Do you? I know all this. No, I don't know any. You haven't got told anything? No. I have no idea what it's going to be about. Do you? I know all of the season. No, I don't know any. You haven't got told anything?

No. You have no idea where we're going to be? I just hear more wrestling, but that's all I know. It's going to be more wrestling this year? That's what I hear. We're going out with a big wrestling finish? Big bang. I don't know the last episode, the first, the whole thing. But just generally you've heard there's going to be more wrestling this season.

Yeah. Huh. But, you know, almost all of it. Where does that leave me? I think you're going to be in the ring, Mark. You do? I hope so. Can we put that in the universe? Yeah, I'm ready. Yeah, that would be exciting.

Yeah. I think I should get in the ring once, not as a ref. Okay. But as a wrestler. Let's ask. Okay. So are you going to direct? I am.

I have a movie that, with Wonderland, with McG's company and Voltage, that's out to cast. Really? An action movie, yeah. So you're directing your first action movie. Yeah. And it's casting now. Mm-hmm. Who wrote it?

Cory Byam. Oh, wow. So is this his first movie too? I believe it's his first or his second. Oh, so this is exciting. It's very exciting. Are you going to direct any glows? would be a dream did you did you ask i asked but who knows i mean that'd be a dream but you're directing a movie that's exciting i know i'm excited he's been on

sets though but it's so weird though because this is the thing i was saying before like i don't know much i know if you live your life on sets you know whatever you're doing if you're there all day you're gonna see how everything fucking works right yeah how could you not well and we're so used to working with the cast and you know like I've spent so much time with with different actresses or actors that a lot of times like on Ray Donovan you know it becomes a you sit in and you say hey just so you know this may get pushback because character wise he really wouldn't do this. He would probably do this.

Right. So you're used to what those questions will be because I care about what their questions are as an actor. Like I understand where that's coming from. And if it makes me question it in the script, it's going to make them. So let's make it work for everybody. And now you're going to get to do that with emotional stuff. Yes.

I love it. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm so glad we talked. Thank you. I'll see you going to get to do that with emotional stuff. Yes, I love it. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm so glad we talked. Thank you. I'll see you on set. I'll see you on set. So that's it.

Shauna Duggins, the stunt coordinator, the Emmy Award winning and SAG nominated stunt coordinator of GLOW. award-winning and SAG-nominated stunt coordinator of GLOW. Again, if you'd like to see me in concert in Cleveland or Grand Rapids, Michigan, or Milwaukee, or Orlando, Florida, or Tampa, or Portland, Maine, or Providence, Rhode Island, or New Haven, Connecticut, or Huntington, New York, go to WTFpod.com slash tour for the freezing leg of the Hey There's More Tour. And that's it. I'll play some guitar, kind of half-ass it right now.

And that's all. That's all for now. Happy New Year. Thank you. Boomer lives. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.